S4 Episode 26: Ezekiel 34:7-15

Translation: Common English Bible (CEB)

3 Questions:

What word, phrase or image strikes you in this text?

Toward what is God calling you in this text?

What do God’s sheep need?

Additional texts:

Acts 2:42-47

Psalm 23

1 Peter 2:19-25

John 10:1-10

Provisional Readings:

Psalm 100

Transcript

00:02.68
Nathan Pile
The sun is shining. The grass is green. I don't know what else to say.

00:09.25
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

00:09.72
Nathan Pile
Other than we're here to do some scripture study.

00:10.31
Kevin Shock
Those things are true.

00:17.27
Kevin Shock
yeah Yeah. Yeah, we are.

00:19.22
Nathan Pile
Yeah, got it in. All right. So welcome back to TED Bible Podcast. ah we're ah We're digging our way out of the Easter...

00:35.00
Nathan Pile
short rest. We were just commiserating together that though we were, we took a day off. There was still a lot to do that that needed to be done in our personal lives, but, but the, just kind of looms there.

00:44.12
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

00:53.10
Nathan Pile
So if you're feeling that you're not alone, know that there are others that feel the same way, but today we're going to take a break from all of that and look at Ezekiel chapter 34, Verses 7 to 15.

01:07.38
Nathan Pile
um As usual, Kevin and I, er, Kevin and I are going to be reading from the Common English Bible as well. That's going to be the translation we're going to use. You can find that on Bible Gateway or follow along with whatever translation you have close at hand. Three questions is our tradition here. word phrase What word, phrase, or image strikes you in the text? Toward what is God calling you in this test text? And what do God's sheep need? Well, they need green grass. That's what they need.

01:41.24
Kevin Shock
They do. They do need some green grass. Yeah. I'm sure we'll think of some other things that they might need too.

01:46.68
Nathan Pile
ah

01:48.84
Kevin Shock
Yep.

01:53.41
Kevin Shock
Uh... Some things about your hosts. I'm on the wrong tab. I'm so sorry. Here's some information about your hosts. I couldn't figure out where I was. We are men married to women in financially stable households, white, firmly in middle age, college and seminary educated.

02:12.54
Kevin Shock
We work in the Lutheran Church and were born and raised in Western PA. All this affects how we read scripture and discuss it, but none of this makes us better able to read and discuss scripture than anyone else.

02:25.02
Kevin Shock
We believe that the wisdom of scripture is the whole community's compiled interpretation for life with God and one another. So we want to know what you hear and think from your life experience.

02:36.57
Kevin Shock
As Nathan said, we're looking at Ezekiel chapter 34, verses 7 through 15.

02:43.22
Kevin Shock
from the Common English Bible. So now shepherds, hear the Lord's word. This is what the Lord God says. As surely as I live without a shepherd, my flock became prey.

02:53.82
Kevin Shock
My flock became food for all the wild animals. My shepherds didn't seek out my flock. They tended themselves, but they didn't tend my flock. So shepherds, hear the Lord's word.

03:05.37
Kevin Shock
The Lord God proclaims, I'm against the shepherds. I will hold them accountable for my flock and I will put an end to their tending the flock. The shepherds will no longer tend them because I will rescue my flock from their mouths and they will no longer be their food.

03:20.82
Kevin Shock
The Lord God proclaims, I myself will search for my flock and seek them out. As a shepherd seeks out the flock when some in the flock have been scattered, so will I seek out my flock.

03:33.14
Kevin Shock
I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered during the time of clouds and thick darkness. I will gather and lead them out from the countries and peoples, and I will bring them to their own fertile land.

03:45.82
Kevin Shock
I will feed them on Israel's highlands, along the riverbeds, and in all the inhabited places. I will feed them in good pasture, and their sheepfold will be there on Israel's lofty highlands.

03:58.01
Kevin Shock
On Israel's highlands they will lie down in a secure fold and feed on green pastures. I myself will feed my flock and make them lie down. This is what the Lord God says.

04:10.39
Kevin Shock
If you are reading with a group, you can pause the podcast now and engage the questions on your own. Ask one another the questions, but Nathan and I will also ask each other the questions. Nathan, toward what, I'm sorry, not toward, what word, phrase, or image strikes you in the text?

04:33.02
Nathan Pile
Um, it's, uh, it's this image of the shepherds here at the beginning. um and God holding the shepherds accountable.

04:45.30
Nathan Pile
Um,

04:48.70
Nathan Pile
It could be the translation that has me... um it could be It could be the day. honest. It could be the day that that's going on after a busy, a busy couple of weeks.

04:58.03
Kevin Shock
Thank you.

05:02.33
Nathan Pile
Or it could be... Like the imagery of this shepherd piece kind of struck me... um completely.

05:13.30
Nathan Pile
Like as you were reading, my thought was, boy, is this, is there a whole section here in Ezekiel about shepherds? I feel like I should read those maybe more closely. um Because I, I, I like the, I, the, I, the, you know, the, the imagery here, shepherds leading the sheep. So the leaders of, of communities, they kind of, I got, I got spun up here in the imagery of Ezekiel.

05:41.56
Nathan Pile
Um, and then starting in verse nine, or I guess it's really verse 10, I'm against the shepherds.

05:46.37
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

05:47.35
Nathan Pile
Um, and that's the accountability piece that kind of held me that was like, Ooh, wow. Um, I wasn't ready for that. I got, I got, um, I got sucked into the warm image of shepherds and sheep, um, and recognizing even though that the shepherds weren't doing their job, um,

06:06.95
Nathan Pile
I'm still kind of going along with it. And then all of a sudden God says, well, well, shepherds leaders, you're gonna, I'm holding you accountable. Um, and so that, um, that was kind of the stark, I don't want to say that the shepherds and sheep was warm, fuzzy, but you know, sheep are fuzzy.

06:15.22
Kevin Shock
he

06:25.63
Nathan Pile
So I guess, I guess I want to say they are a little warm, fuzzy that even though the imagery at the beginning, wasn't so much that, um,

06:36.02
Nathan Pile
you know You know, it's this idea of that the shepherds are to be protecting the flock and the need for the flo- the shepherds to do their job. But pretty quickly there at the end of verse 8, we're told that the shepherds aren't doing their job.

06:55.80
Nathan Pile
um And so, yeah, I'd have ah I have a lot to talk about.

06:55.89
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

07:02.49
Nathan Pile
when we when we talk about moving from this like out of the imagery to to actually talking about leaders and what that looks like.

07:13.66
Nathan Pile
um

07:17.24
Nathan Pile
you know There's a part of, of you know I consider myself a leader. So there's an uncomfortableness of God's gonna hold me accountable. And because I know I'm not going to do, I'm not gonna be the perfect shepherd.

07:32.38
Nathan Pile
um as a leader and so um

07:33.96
Kevin Shock
Sure.

07:40.63
Nathan Pile
but yet at the same time, I think there's a yearning in my soul for someone to hold leaders accountable and of course it's easy for me to point on to the other hillside over there where the where the political leaders are and the for-profit business leaders are. And I point over there and they're like, and say, oh, they're not very good leaders. This, I need them to be held accountable.

08:09.02
Nathan Pile
And then exclude myself over on this other hill where the church and nonprofit organizations and stuff like that and say, oh yeah, well, well we're just doing fine. Accountability has to be for all of us, so.

08:21.36
Kevin Shock
Right. Right. Yeah.

08:24.57
Nathan Pile
So I think that's my initial um the imagery caught my imagination, but then I was kind of startled by the holding the shepherds accountable, which also gave me some thoughts about the importance of that.

08:37.74
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

08:44.41
Nathan Pile
How about you? What word phrase or image strikes you in this passage?

08:44.96
Kevin Shock
Yep.

08:48.82
Kevin Shock
Not just that the ah shepherds are not good at leadership, but that they are taking, they're using the sheep for their own devices. ah there it's that It's that last part of verse 10, which is a very long verse about holding them accountable.

09:09.82
Kevin Shock
um I will rescue my flock from their mouths and they will no longer be their food. The shepherds are devouring the sheep.

09:23.26
Kevin Shock
And yeah, not just, not just aren that are they not tending them well or not caring for them, they're devouring them. And I don't want to be, um what's the word i'm looking, i don't want to be arrogant, but I do feel like Nathan, that that verse helps me to point the finger elsewhere.

09:47.13
Kevin Shock
ah Um, I don't think that, uh, I don't, yeah, not, not that I, not that I don't have things that I need to be held accountable for too, but, um, but I think this also gives me from a, from the perspective as a leader in the church, this gives me a sense of what, of how I should be leading.

10:12.25
Kevin Shock
Um, or at least how I should not be leading. It certainly gives me a sense of that. ah Yeah, so.

10:23.51
Nathan Pile
It's the other thing I just looked it up to see and another translation to see like, it's an interesting

10:33.56
Nathan Pile
pattern here, the word of the Lord. And then a long explanation here, the word of the Lord and a long explanation at the beginning of this.

10:44.67
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

10:47.90
Nathan Pile
And so I was, I was just looking to see to make sure that it, this translation wasn't just that they took some liberties and, know, used more words than what was, what's actually there, but the NRSV also has these long eight, verse eight and verse 10 are long

11:15.46
Nathan Pile
explanations of what the word of the Lord is doing maybe.

11:22.02
Nathan Pile
It's just kind of a, you know, typically you're, you know, when we look in the Bible, the verses are, you know, and I know the the numbers of the verses came far later, came well after everything was written.

11:31.18
Kevin Shock
Right.

11:33.34
Nathan Pile
But here specifically, they've numbered them in such a way that it does accentuate but the long verse after hear the word of the Lord.

11:43.94
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

11:48.89
Nathan Pile
Kind of a thing. So again, it's just another structural piece that I think is something, and you know, again, trying to give that instruction to the shepherds, to the leaders.

11:51.90
Kevin Shock
Yeah, both for

12:02.68
Kevin Shock
verses 8 and 10 are long verses.

12:07.03
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Like.

12:08.82
Kevin Shock
Right after that, hear hear the word of the Lord. or I'm, I'm looking at the NET as well, and it listen to the Lord's message is what it says.

12:18.65
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

12:18.74
Kevin Shock
They have long verses after that.

12:26.10
Kevin Shock
Yeah. And anyway, the these shepherds have been doing very, very bad things.

12:31.12
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Well, and, and, and, and your reflection of essentially using or consuming the sheep for their own desires.

12:48.80
Nathan Pile
desires

12:50.50
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

12:52.86
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Um... I don't want to become ah political in this podcast. This verse hits me in a different way right now.

13:03.14
Nathan Pile
Right now. Yeah, it does too for me.

13:04.58
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

13:05.06
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

13:06.36
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

13:07.38
Nathan Pile
Yeah, it where my mind went first.

13:10.76
Kevin Shock
It feels like we have leaders who care only about themselves and, and only about how they can manipulate the people of the world in order to maximize profit and their own comfort.

13:24.70
Kevin Shock
And... And again, not to say that this is a this isn't necessarily a new thing. I'm sure that's happened before in the world, but it feels close to home right now.

13:35.62
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

13:39.96
Nathan Pile
And it,

13:43.45
Nathan Pile
and at times it feels as if we are as powerless as sheep.

13:51.38
Kevin Shock
it does yeah it does yeah and it also is the you know use that use the metaphor of shepherds on different hills which I thought was an interesting but even even then it's not it's not like we're separating the church from the state and things like, like sometimes even within the church there are different hills that we're looking at and uh yeah and it and it seems like um

14:01.44
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

14:12.89
Nathan Pile
Absolutely. Yeah.

14:19.35
Kevin Shock
I don't know. it, This also makes me wonder what is the duty of the shepherds who can see this happening, I guess.

14:29.52
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

14:30.52
Kevin Shock
And yeah that's something that all in our denomination, all, all ordained people are called to be public witnesses of the promise of Jesus Christ and, and to work for justice and peace in all the world.

14:51.67
Kevin Shock
And um yeah, that's, it's something that I think that we spend a lot of time and maybe even have to spend more time discerning what that means exactly.

15:07.75
Kevin Shock
yeah.

15:14.90
Nathan Pile
um

15:25.32
Nathan Pile
Your comments there strikes me as, yeah like how do we, how do we, how do we,

15:38.23
Nathan Pile
even the passage says that God's going to go do this thing about finding the flock, right? Bringing the flock back together from, from the midst of, of clouds and darkness from the different countries and borders and peoples.

15:43.06
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

15:52.25
Nathan Pile
um

15:54.94
Nathan Pile
And God's going to do that. And, and you know, the, the easy thing is to say, well, I'll be a part of God helping to do that. Right. I like that stuff. But,

16:07.38
Nathan Pile
your question of, well, what what are, as as other shepherds on other hills, what do we do oh when we see

16:21.91
Nathan Pile
corruption or, or the, the abuse of other

16:23.66
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

16:29.85
Nathan Pile
the the the abuse of other

16:36.02
Nathan Pile
of other flocks. um

16:43.33
Nathan Pile
You know, or do we need to do self-reflection to make sure we're seeking to be better shepherds ourselves?

16:55.48
Nathan Pile
Again, the easier the easier thing feels like it's to judge the other shepherds, right?

16:55.86
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

17:01.82
Nathan Pile
But that doesn't feel like

17:07.51
Nathan Pile
Like that, you know, that feels like the, again, the, the, the easy judgment thing to do in today's world. But there's something about this passage that, that again, that word accountability,

17:24.98
Nathan Pile
I will hold them accountable for my flock. um How, you know,

17:33.78
Nathan Pile
what do I need to look at in myself for

17:41.59
Nathan Pile
being a shepherd, as being a shepherd, as being a leader

17:48.15
Nathan Pile
in community and church, you know, in the and faith and and, you know, communities of faith.

18:00.29
Nathan Pile
So now, all right, you want to a second time?

18:06.72
Kevin Shock
yeah, let's do it a second time.

18:16.50
Nathan Pile
So now shepherds, hear the Lord's word.

18:21.11
Nathan Pile
This is what the Lord God says. As surely as I live without a shepherd, my flock became prey. My flock became food for all the wild animals.

18:32.66
Nathan Pile
My shepherds didn't seek out that my flock. They tended themselves, but they didn't tend my flock. So shepherds, hear the Lord's word.

18:44.84
Nathan Pile
The Lord God proclaims, The Lord God proclaims, and will hold them accountable for my flock and i will put an end to their tending the flock the shepherds will no longer tend them because i will rescue my flock from their mouths and they will no longer be their food

19:04.57
Nathan Pile
the lord god proclaims I myself will search for my flock and seek them out. As a shepherd seeks out the flock when some in the flock have been scattered, so I will seek out my flock.

19:15.16
Nathan Pile
I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered during the time of clouds and thick darkness.

19:24.74
Nathan Pile
I will gather and lead them out from the countries and peoples, and I will bring them to their own fertile land. I will feed them on Israel's highlands,

19:35.77
Nathan Pile
along the river beds and in all the inhabited places. I will feed them in good pasture and their sheep fold will be there on Israel's lofty highlands.

19:46.79
Nathan Pile
Oh, Israel's highlands, they will lie down in a secure fold and feed on green pastures. I myself will feed my flock and make them lie down. This is what the Lord says.

20:00.63
Nathan Pile
Kevin, toward what is God calling you in this passage?

20:05.08
Kevin Shock
Well, that's what we were wrestling with at the end of our last answer, weren't we? um

20:10.29
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

20:11.13
Kevin Shock
I, um

20:16.95
Kevin Shock
think there's a sense here that I need to be guided

20:22.90
Kevin Shock
to seek to be guided in this work of leadership of shepherding by the Lord. Yeah.

20:33.42
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

20:35.38
Kevin Shock
Like I, there, there's a part of me as we were talking at the end of the last reading that thinking, oh, well, a good way for me to be a better leader is to make sure I'm not being a leader like these bad leaders are.

20:48.69
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

20:49.21
Kevin Shock
And, and I don't know that that's helpful in the long run to say, I'm just going to be less bad than these other leaders are, or I'm going to look at what these terrible leaders are doing and do the opposite of it.

21:04.73
Kevin Shock
um

21:07.48
Kevin Shock
I think it's better for my leadership, especially in the church. I can't speak to, I don't, I don't necessarily want, I don't necessarily want our political leaders' leadership to be defined by their faith.

21:24.25
Kevin Shock
I don't, I, I don't want that, which sounds odd to say, but I say that as someone who believes that one of our greatest gifts of religious freedom in this country is the separation of church and state.

21:39.70
Kevin Shock
And um and I say that because there are all kinds of Christians that I have very deep political disagreements with.

21:51.45
Kevin Shock
And I also say that, that if, um, I've often thought for many, many, many, many years, if we

22:02.10
Kevin Shock
start to limit religious freedom in this land, then it's only a matter of time before my own religious freedom, even if it's at the prominent religious practice, becomes limited by what the government dictates.

22:23.32
Kevin Shock
So I don't want anyone's religious freedom to be limited. um And that also means I don't want, I don't want religion to um infiltrate the government much at all.

22:41.85
Kevin Shock
I want people to make, I want people to make decisions. I think that faithful people can make good decisions based on their faith, but I don't think that they can make decisions necessarily that are that um push their faith or any kind of faith on the populace.

22:59.67
Kevin Shock
I don't think that's a healthy thing for us.

23:04.06
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

23:04.22
Kevin Shock
So I say all that to say um that I'm not, but I don't think it's good for me to base my leadership on what I think are bad examples of other people's leadership.

23:23.00
Kevin Shock
I should base my leadership on the leadership of the one who is the, the good leader, the good shepherd, the holy one. And um knowing that i will not um I will fail at that, but also knowing that um if I'm looking, if I'm looking toward a good example of leadership, then I will be a better example of leadership myself.

24:00.04
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

24:01.82
Kevin Shock
I think the problem that a lot of leaders have is they say, well, we're not going to be like those other leaders. And that like that's been that's been an ongoing problem in our nation, is that the more we, you know, right now, well, I don't know where we'll be whenever this episode drops, but as we currently are recording, we're still at war.

24:26.65
Kevin Shock
And the ironic thing is that we are warring with the nation that we are most similar to in a lot of ways, except that it's just a different religion that we cling to.

24:41.88
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

24:43.29
Kevin Shock
um you know, when you look at the nations of the world that still have the the death penalty, it's Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, the United States.

24:56.76
Kevin Shock
Like a lot of our allies, we were different from a lot of our allies in that way. Not that, you know, I mean, and I don't have that list right in front of me, but the, the, the ironic thing is that, that there are things like the death penalty, like, um, um, religion infiltrating the government that we have more in common with the people that we call our enemies than we do with the people that we consider to be our allies.

25:23.89
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

25:25.34
Kevin Shock
the only The only nations that rival us for military spending are North Korea and China. And, it yeah, it, it's, it's not a, it's not, I don't, I don't understand why our leaders can't see that it's not a case of us just outspending them to be ahead of them.

25:46.90
Kevin Shock
We can develop a different philosophy to remove ourselves from, like being in that group of people in that group of nations. I, yeah, it, it's frustrating to me. It's frustrating to me that the, the people we think that we're the people that our leaders say that we're most different from, we're actually the most similar to.

26:07.96
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah, that's an interesting point. I hadn't um thought about it in the ways that you've just kind of shared. But it yeah, makes absolute sense that that though our faith beliefs are different, our actions line up far closer.

26:28.15
Nathan Pile
um

26:28.28
Kevin Shock
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Where the rubber hits the road.

26:33.25
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

26:33.34
Kevin Shock
That's yeah. Yeah. I mean, how many times have you heard our government

26:42.81
Kevin Shock
through decades, you know, up uphold the, the, um, uh,

26:54.14
Kevin Shock
uphold the idea that, you know, we're we're fighting with we're fighting with nations from the Middle East because they say things like, death to America, Allah Akbar. And as we record this, just last week, just right over the Christmas weekend, our, I'm sorry, Easter, yeah, Easter weekend, our own president,

27:12.35
Nathan Pile
Easter, Easter weekend.

27:20.22
Kevin Shock
posted on social media, death to Iran, praise be to God. but Like, well, it's the exact same thing. We're just saying the exact same thing. And, um, and so if you, if you or I, if I am constantly trying to define myself as a leader against someone that I am also obsessed with,

27:45.66
Kevin Shock
because I don't want to be like them. I'm going to end up leading just like they do, just from a different side of the coin. And so I think my my answer to this question here is, if I want to be a good leader, I need to actually look to one who is a good leader, not another bad leader that I just disagree with, to define myself against.

28:04.76
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

28:06.80
Kevin Shock
And, and, and like you point out, this, this reading says, um ah God finally says, hey, I'm going to do this myself. if, if no one, If no one in the world is going to do it for me, then I'm just going to do it for myself.

28:23.32
Kevin Shock
And um so I think this is also calling me toward be one of the people in the world that that that does this on behalf of on behalf of God.

28:36.99
Kevin Shock
I guess, yeah.

28:42.58
Kevin Shock
So what about you, Nathan? or What is God calling you in this text?

28:45.73
Nathan Pile
um

28:49.02
Nathan Pile
the it's similar to yours in that um like I need, I appreciate all of the your, your reflection of all of our shift away from just being able to say well I'm going to be different than that leader um that's that's There's not enough lesson there. right it's It's okay to say I'm not going to be like that leader, but then we have to go deeper than that. It can't be just a a swing of the pendulum because all we're going to do is swing to the opposite side of the of the situation and say, okay, well, well, I'm over here now on this side. I'm opposite of the other

29:34.55
Nathan Pile
party um so but for me it was that, that I need to actually allow the leader the shepherd here in this second part lead me like there has to be, there has to be, I have to be a sheep, right. I have to allow, I can't be fighting to be my, the, the leader that I think that i am

29:49.73
Kevin Shock
Yeah, right.

29:55.35
Kevin Shock
yeah right

30:02.46
Nathan Pile
because then I'm just one of the shepherds that that isn't there. And so as I was listening to myself, as I was reading these words this time, and that was kind of the piece that stuck out to me as um like, sometimes it's as a leader, you have to let other people lead you, right.

30:25.18
Nathan Pile
um And in this, in this setting, in in in this reading,

30:25.39
Kevin Shock
That's right. Yeah.

30:31.29
Nathan Pile
that That leader, that shepherd is God. And so how am I listening for the voice of the shepherd? How am I seeking to be guided to these highlands?

30:45.98
Nathan Pile
um again, I find the imagery rich here. Again, it's the translation. I'm sure that, well, I don't know what the word was that they used, but the CEB using the word Highlands gave me you know, images of the Scots and the Irish, you know, kind of a thing and these hills and and green knolls, that kind of stuff. And so, but if, if I'm going to be the,

31:16.86
Nathan Pile
to Like to be a good shepherd, to be a good leader, I'm going to need to listen to the shepherd of Ezekiel to guide me in ways and and to be listening and be willing to accept the the guidance of God and not it just be my reaction to, I'm going be opposite of how how they're leading over there.

31:43.46
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

31:43.54
Nathan Pile
um because it's probably as you as you've articulated the the polar opposite of one thing is probably pretty close to the other that the thing that you're trying to react against just in in a different um from a different focal point um but still being the extreme and so um

31:43.60
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

32:10.17
Nathan Pile
So being able to listen to to the good, again, this isn't the term here, but the good shepherd, um

32:19.38
Nathan Pile
that might help me if I'm, if I'm willing to be led by God, that that's going to provide the nurture and the, um, and the care that I need to be

32:37.62
Nathan Pile
to answer some of the questions we've already raised earlier in this podcast of how am I going to do that? How am I going to be a better leader? How do I, you

32:48.98
Nathan Pile
you know, be a, be a, a good shepherd? Well, it feels as if I need to be able to be led and led in a place that I get nur- nurtured and cared for by the divine, that that might then help me on my,

33:07.61
Nathan Pile
on my journey of being a leader or shepherd myself.

33:16.41
Kevin Shock
yeah I appreciate that reflection because you point out too where it's like why it makes me wonder why when I read this text do I automatically put myself in the place of the shepherd

33:26.50
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

33:27.45
Kevin Shock
ah

33:31.35
Kevin Shock
I mean isn't that a problem with shepherds to be with poor shepherds to begin with is that they only see themselves as shepherds they don't see themselves as people who need to be led, but as people who are called to lead.

33:44.36
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

33:44.82
Kevin Shock
And the reality is, and this is part of our, think one of those parts of our Lutheran dichotomy as well, is, you know, we're both, we're both she- um saint and sinner already and not yet.

33:45.06
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

34:03.67
Kevin Shock
And we're both sheep and shepherd as, as people of faith. And, And, and not even just not even pastors, but just as people of faith. We're, we're, we're, we're both sheep and shepherds. we're, We're called to follow and be fed by the one who made us.

34:22.68
Kevin Shock
And we're also called to um care for others. And we might not always see that as leadership, but a shepherd isn't.

34:34.01
Kevin Shock
ah a shepherd at at it at its core is not one who leads the sheep to where they need to be, so to speak. Shepherd is the one who takes care of the sheep.

34:47.00
Kevin Shock
And so if, if we're, if, if we're being compassionate toward others in any regard, even if we think it's tiny, that's an that's an act of shepherding.

34:47.00
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

34:56.34
Kevin Shock
Yeah. And we're both. We're called to be both.

35:01.95
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

35:08.57
Kevin Shock
I think that I think that leaders in the church know that if they spend all their time caring for others and never carve out the time to let people care for them, it will all go awry at some point.

35:27.93
Kevin Shock
You will run out of juice, so to speak.

35:37.75
Nathan Pile
Yeah,

35:41.88
Kevin Shock
Well, you want to look at it a third time?

35:44.09
Nathan Pile
and let's do one more time.

35:45.30
Kevin Shock
Okay. From Ezekiel 34. Oh, and we're looking at the CEB, right? I still had the...

35:53.91
Nathan Pile
We are looking at CEB, yes.

35:55.48
Kevin Shock
Yeah, I still have the NET pulled up Okay. Ezekiel 34, 7 through 15. seven through fifteen So now, shepherds, hear the Lord's word. This is what the Lord God says. As surely as I live without a shepherd, my flock became prey.

36:10.14
Kevin Shock
My flock became food for all the wild animals. My shepherds didn't seek out my flock. They tended themselves, but they didn't tend my flock. So shepherds, hear the Lord's word.

36:24.15
Kevin Shock
The Lord God proclaims, I'm against the shepherds. I will hold them accountable for my flock and I will put an end to their tending the flock. The shepherds will no longer tend them because I will rescue my flock from their mouths and they will no longer be their food.

36:38.74
Kevin Shock
The Lord God proclaims, I myself will search for my flock and seek them out as a shepherd seeks out the flock when some in the flock have been scattered so will I seek out my flock i will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered during the time of clouds and thick darkness I will gather and lead them out from the countries and peoples and i will bring them to their own fertile land I will feed to them on Israel's highlands, along the riverbeds, and in all the inhabited places.

37:08.76
Kevin Shock
I will feed them in good pasture, and their sheepfold will be there on Israel's lofty highlands. On Israel's highlands they will lie down in a secure fold and feed on green pastures.

37:20.47
Kevin Shock
I myself will feed my flock and make them lie down. This is what the Lord God says.

37:28.73
Kevin Shock
Nathan, what do God's sheep need?

37:35.79
Nathan Pile
Um, uh, one of the words I haven't used, I don't think, um, to talk about this passage would be safety. Um,

37:49.18
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

37:51.22
Nathan Pile
and so that feels like that's something here at the beginning of this. And even at the end, um, being, being taken to a secure fold, I think was the language that I heard you say,

38:03.80
Nathan Pile
um But you know won taking the, you know to be safe,

38:17.86
Nathan Pile
it's one of the things we think about at camp through all of our different programming and so forth. And you know we have a swimming pool and we have a climbing tower and we canoe and, and we walk around in the woods and we climb on rocks. And so we try to think about the safety of our campers.

38:34.84
Nathan Pile
um And I think probably in many ways, at least

38:45.59
Nathan Pile
in, in, in our country, or at least in the my experience of being in our country, ah it feels pretty secure here I would probably say in the last 15, 20 years is different than my first 30 years.

39:04.79
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

39:07.48
Nathan Pile
That there's more, I have more fear. and, And of course, as a parent, I worry about the safety of my, my daughter as as she's out in the big scary world.

39:20.76
Nathan Pile
Like I want her to experience the world. I want her to have to to grow and be prepared for aspects of the world. um But that piece of safety...

39:33.05
Nathan Pile
it seems more elusive maybe now than 30 years ago, 25 years ago.

39:39.10
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

39:41.15
Nathan Pile
And, you know, obviously in that time I've become a parent and so, but I don't think it's just because I became a parent that, that I felt that way. You know, there was things, i don't know, I was, you know, single and a young man, you know, 9-11 occurred and,

39:58.78
Nathan Pile
there was other things that crept into the world that, that made the world feel less safe. And so there's a piece here of this passage that really kind of sticks out to me of of that, you know, our our our nation has has, you know, we talked about the military a little bit. We talked like we're safe. We feel safe here. It doesn't mean we're not um At times, you know, the times we don't feel threatened or so forth, but it there is a a level of safety.

40:36.73
Nathan Pile
you know, I think that that's a part of, of, of history as you look over time when when um tribes or nations are safe, they're able to develop culture. They, they, you know, things in some ways you might say flourish.

40:55.00
Nathan Pile
Because there's a level of safety that allows them to, and security of of they have food and that they are able to gather together and they um and they develop you know art, music, and culture and those kinds of things that that when you're not just trying to live or survive day to day.

41:15.90
Nathan Pile
The United States, even though we are at war, we're pretty displaced from that and really have been since you know maybe the Korean, the Korean war, Vietnam war. Um, because there's been a select group that has been sent to um deal with it and I guess you get to say the Per- Persian Gulf um war that went on but it's been a limited number of people that have had that exposure to it and so there's a an isolation

41:52.32
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep.

41:54.49
Nathan Pile
from it maybe, which I think isn't probably good for us either. Then maybe it becomes complacent. Yeah, they're fighting over there. It's no big deal to us over here. um And those kinds of attitudes, I think, get, you know, corrupt us as well. And so, so I think safety would be my, like, that's the need. And, and how do we, how do we find the middle of safety

42:24.66
Nathan Pile
of going and, you know, going in ah and, uh, and attacking another country where we unsafe, you know, you know, I, it's hard for me to know. I'm not a expert of, of things. I, I try to read and understand what I hear out there. and, And there are people that say this wasn't a threat. We shouldn't have done this.

42:47.26
Nathan Pile
And there's others that say this absolutely needed to happen. I don't know what the right answer is there. I don't, I'm, I'm not privy to all of the information. um But, you know, safety feels like something that I want. ah You know, I want it for my, again, myself and my family.

43:08.06
Nathan Pile
And it feels as if God's saying, you know, safety is a thing for the flock. But I guess, what's who's the what's your definition of flock? Who's in? Who's in your group? Is it just...

43:21.24
Nathan Pile
people that are Americans, people that middle-class, you know.

43:21.66
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

43:24.25
Kevin Shock
Right. Right.

43:25.66
Nathan Pile
So, like, I don't have any answers other than to say, because ah my answer just gives me more questions of, but I think one of the things is safety.

43:36.02
Nathan Pile
One of the things that God seeks for us is safety.

43:37.86
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

43:39.51
Nathan Pile
um

43:40.44
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

43:40.98
Nathan Pile
And I think there's good reasons for that. I think we see, but I'm not even positive we, you know, today, one of the things I wonder about um for parents is, you know, that idea like, will they even send their kids to summer camp because of the fear of safety?

43:58.94
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

44:00.41
Nathan Pile
It does feel like one of the things we rub up against pretty frequently as we have conversations with parents is their fear of, is my kid going to be safe?

44:12.88
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

44:18.01
Nathan Pile
You know, I have, we you know, you have to send, as camp, one of the things we try to do to be responsible is we send disclaimers, right? And the disclaimers are terrible because they're and not written by the attorneys, but I do ask attorneys to review them.

44:30.90
Kevin Shock
yeah

44:31.03
Nathan Pile
um And they're like, yeah, you have to say these things. They have to be told, parents have to know that there's a risk in coming to camp. But I'm like, they don't want to come then.

44:44.28
Kevin Shock
Right, right. Yeah. yeah

44:45.62
Nathan Pile
And so you're in this, how do you be a responsible steward and say, yes, there there are risks that happen at camp, things could happen at camp. We don't want them to happen at camp. We have stressed, but you know, standard operating procedures and safety that we teach and all of those pieces.

45:05.96
Nathan Pile
But, you know, that, that part of safety is a, it's prevalent. And, and so in our In our culture, in our society, it's ah it's a fear right now that is at the top of our list of fears. is

45:21.26
Kevin Shock
Yep. Yeah.

45:21.53
Nathan Pile
Even though we feel safe, there's lots of things about our world that

45:33.30
Nathan Pile
make us question those feelings of safety. And so it's always at the front of our mind. Is this safe? Yeah. What about you? What, what do sheep need?

45:47.22
Kevin Shock
Well, the word that came to mind, um I think you and I were being led in similar paths. The word that came to mind at first was protection. But I don't know that protection is exactly the word I want to use.

45:56.22
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

45:58.67
Kevin Shock
I, I think the more I heard you talk, the more that the word security came up. And security can be a weird word, too. But I think that feeling, you know, I mean, security, I think, brings to mind people who are guarding and, you know, and trying to keep other people out or whatever it might be.

46:20.34
Kevin Shock
I think of being secure in our person. And there's all kinds of stuff that's wrapped in that. Some of it is identity, um ah feeling secure in our identity, but also having basic needs met. Like if people are getting enough sleep, if they have enough to eat, if you know there's food on their table, if they have meaningful work, um if they have...

46:45.69
Kevin Shock
adequate or even more than adequate, comfortable shelter, then it really changes the way that the world feels. If more people feel that way, then,

47:03.03
Kevin Shock
you know, studies have shown that there are like life expectancy increases, health increases, um, that

47:09.75
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

47:14.30
Kevin Shock
we We live in a nation and in a time where we pull away funding from things like the arts and education and health care and make those things more difficult for people to grasp.

47:29.72
Kevin Shock
And it's, it's devastating for our society that we do that. And i'm not sure I'm not sure why we're okay with that. I like, I don't, ah, It doesn't make any sense to me.

47:43.42
Kevin Shock
um there's, There's a lot of propaganda and fear out there. and, and, and, But I think that that it just compounds itself. If there's already fear, people know how to play off of that fear.

47:56.73
Kevin Shock
and I, And I think what you say is true is that there are, if, if we get, if things feel a little, like like we feel a little more fearful about the state of the world, then it's easy for people to play off of that.

48:12.86
Kevin Shock
and, and make us fear more. And if we're more fearful, we're more easily controlled.

48:22.55
Kevin Shock
But, which is, I think, part of the reason why we hear so much in scripture, and, and scripture doesn't use this word itself exactly, but but there's so much about liberation.

48:38.74
Kevin Shock
Or maybe, you know, the word we hear more is deliverance, salvation. um All of those things seek to put people in a better situation than what they're currently in.

48:52.76
Kevin Shock
And that's what's happening in this very reading is that the, The shepherds haven't been tending to the sheep well, and so the nation has gone downhill. There's been, you know, they've been overrun by other nations. Now, God is seeking to gather those people back. And, and what does that mean?

49:14.20
Kevin Shock
What does the reading say that, you know, I will, I will gather them and lead them out from the countries and peoples, and I will bring them to their own fertile land. I will feed them on Israel's highlands along the riverbeds and all the inhabited places.

49:27.83
Kevin Shock
I will feed them in good pastures and their sheepfold will be there. They will lie down in a secure fold and feed on green pastures.

49:40.57
Kevin Shock
this, This is about security. This is about being, that they'll return to their homeland where they're comfortable. They'll be with their own people. They will have all that they need to eat and they will have the freedom to lie down.

49:58.61
Kevin Shock
They'll feel enough security that they can they can sleep well.

50:03.83
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

50:03.93
Kevin Shock
And so I think that that's what sheep need. I think sheep need, Again, not a political statement. I think sheep need enough to eat. They need a place safe place to lie down.

50:15.64
Kevin Shock
They need adequate health care, accessible health care. And they need um they need to feel secure in their own person, in their in who they are, in their identity.

50:30.58
Kevin Shock
And that's the kind of stuff that God provides for us. We hear God talk about freedom so much because when people are secure and free, they don't do terrible things to one another.

50:42.65
Kevin Shock
They lift one another up.

50:46.24
Nathan Pile
All right. Yeah.

50:46.84
Kevin Shock
And if, if the sheep don't have to fight each other over food, they don't fight.

51:00.22
Kevin Shock
And I, I feel like that's where we are as a world right now. That does to me, Nathan, feel like I agree with you, feels a lot different than like when you and I were young adults in the, throughout the 1990s, things felt more prosperous.

51:15.90
Kevin Shock
Like people had work, like that there there was some geopolitical stuff going on for sure. and then certainly the world took a big turn after 9-11.

51:31.03
Kevin Shock
And we have we have gone down a dangerous rabbit hole since 9-11 that has been fueled by religious fundamentalism on both sides of the coin and has been fueled by a um

51:43.87
Nathan Pile
All right.

51:47.51
Kevin Shock
yeah, a feeling that we need to make ourselves secure.

51:57.91
Kevin Shock
and do it in ways that involve we make ourselves more secure by making other people less secure and that's not that's not God's way and it's not how it works practically speaking either

52:15.66
Kevin Shock
it's, I understand it's not a natural human reaction to um be attacked on your own soil and then and then to

52:24.79
Nathan Pile
Right.

52:28.15
Kevin Shock
throw funding into things like decreasing world hunger, increasing education. It's, it's easier to say, well, we just need to bomb them.

52:41.58
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

52:42.20
Kevin Shock
And, um, but ah it doesn't, it doesn't work. It doesn't work. 9-11 made us, uh, not 9-11 did not make the United States stronger because someone else bombed us.

52:59.99
Kevin Shock
Um, it did, it, that was the initial reaction, but then we just became more politically divided with one another. And, uh, yeah, I, I also think of like, um, things that unsettle me now looking back on, is I think of like the, um, like bumper stickers that came out around that time. That's when, uh, that's when you started to hear an increase in terms like freedom isn't free.

53:30.36
Kevin Shock
um which is anti-biblical. It's anti-Jesus. That statement is anti-Jesus. Or, I'm sorry, not anti-Jesus, anti-Paul.

53:42.55
Kevin Shock
Paul's the one. He, he name drops Jesus in that line.

53:45.73
Nathan Pile
Right.

53:46.43
Kevin Shock
But, you know, for freedom, Christ has set us free. ah Freedom is free. Freedom is absolutely free. And freedom is a gift that we can give to one another. Not something that we have to fight for, but it's a gift that we can give to one another.

54:00.50
Kevin Shock
Um, and the other one is, uh, there was a bumper sticker that was really popular right after 9-11. And I don't even know where it came from, but it just said the power of pride.

54:13.11
Kevin Shock
And yeah, and I understand like wanting to feel, you know, like you're proud of your country and, and, and and that's a, having pride in your country is a way to have, ah

54:26.30
Kevin Shock
um feel secure in your identity, what I was saying before, but also pride in and of itself is not ah is not a helpful thing.

54:35.09
Nathan Pile
Sure.

54:39.21
Kevin Shock
It leads to arrogance and then a hard fall. Yeah.

54:50.97
Kevin Shock
So yeah, I keep going, I just keep going back to what you were saying earlier is that i think I think we need to remember that we're sheep too.

55:04.28
Kevin Shock
Yep.

55:05.36
Nathan Pile
We'd still need the, the, the guidance of the divine guidance of the holy.

55:09.05
Kevin Shock
The guidance and the security and the security of the divine.

55:11.20
Nathan Pile
Yeah. And the security.

55:12.17
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

55:12.64
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

55:13.98
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah, which is much, much different from human security. Mm-hmm.

55:18.44
Nathan Pile
Right.

55:22.21
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Well, anything else you want to say about this?

55:25.86
Nathan Pile
I don't know. No, it was, um, I didn't know where we were going to go today, but this was good.

55:32.25
Kevin Shock
Yeah, I didn't either.

55:33.37
Nathan Pile
Um,

55:36.63
Nathan Pile
The additional texts, um if you're looking for something else to read this week, Acts chapter 2, verse 42 to 47, the believer's common life. Psalm 23, shocking that that would have been the psalm.

55:52.34
Nathan Pile
though The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want. 1 Peter chapter suffering. um verse nineteen to twenty five follow the shepherd even in suffering And then John chapter 10 verses one through 10, Christ, the shepherd, um, provisional other, I'm assuming this was a provisional reading, right?

56:18.36
Kevin Shock
Yeah, the, the, the Ezekiel.

56:18.74
Nathan Pile
let me

56:19.80
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, this is.

56:20.38
Nathan Pile
Ezekiel was until the other one is, is Psalm 100.

56:22.06
Kevin Shock
Yep. Mm hmm.

56:24.57
Nathan Pile
Um, we are God's people and the sheep of God's pasture. So, um, as always, Kevin, thanks for your reflections, um, this day and, uh,

56:35.93
Nathan Pile
We hope to hear your reflections. Again, you can share those through social media or an email, which I guess technically is a social media.

56:48.70
Nathan Pile
But to share those with us, if there's thoughts that you have, um we hope to tend our faith with you again soon. Grace to you.

56:57.75
Kevin Shock
and peace