S4 Episode 38: Isaiah 44:6-8

Translation: NRSVue

3 Questions:

What word, phrase or image strikes you in this text?

Toward what is God calling you in this text?

What makes God incomparable?

Additional texts:

Wisdom of Solomon 12:13, 16-19

Psalm 86:11-17

Romans 8:12-25

Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43

Genesis 28:10-19a

Psalm 139:1-12, 23-24

Transcript

00:03.13
Nathan Pile
Well, it is the dog days of summer. It's hot. It's sticky. It, ah yeah, it's, it's, it's summer, man.

00:18.62
Nathan Pile
And I am needing to just pause for, let's say 59 minutes and talk to my buddy with some scripture.

00:28.04
Kevin Shock
Okay.

00:31.48
Kevin Shock
ah

00:33.29
Nathan Pile
I'm in the air conditioning here at camp. That makes it a hundred times better. and, um, And I'm looking forward to just re-, rejuvenating my spirit a little bit, my friend. How are you?

00:52.22
Kevin Shock
Good, good, good. and Yeah, and so it's a busy time, but it's ah, but it's a full time in the sense that, yeah, things sir things are going well.

01:05.85
Nathan Pile
Well, in the church, we kind of call this ordinary time, right? This is just like normal time.

01:09.56
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Someone actually, you, you were talking about it being hot. It's not hot where I am today. But I know that this is going to, this is going to come out like a month from now, so it probably will be.

01:23.61
Kevin Shock
um

01:23.79
Nathan Pile
It's definitely, dude, it was hot last week. And so I can't imagine July is not going to be hot.

01:26.30
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, yeah, it's going to get hot again. But, uh, someone, um just yesterday, Lisa and I went to pick up a foster dog from pause, which that is going well so far.

01:43.06
Kevin Shock
Um, but it's, you know, it takes some work and, uh, in the In the middle of it, one of the volunteers who knows me pretty well there said, ah because I came in wearing my bishop's outfit, I was in my collar, at my cross on and everything, because I had been rushing around all weekend. And...

02:03.54
Kevin Shock
And he said, oh, this is probably a good time for you to take your foster dog home. This is like your, your light season, right? And I just laughed and laughed and laughed and laughed and laughed because I was like, no, this is apparently not my light season with the Synod Assembly.

02:16.94
Kevin Shock
And he said, oh, I didn't, I wasn't thinking about all that stuff. But, but.

02:21.77
Nathan Pile
This is your light season.

02:23.58
Kevin Shock
Yeah, this is this is not yet my late season. um But it's, it's all, it's all good, good stuff, stuff that the church can rejoice in. And I'm making an assumption about Synod Assembly because we're recording this pre-Synod Assembly, but I'm pretty, I feel pretty good about how it's going to go.

02:41.97
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

02:45.05
Kevin Shock
But I'm, I'm happy to take a break from paperwork and planning and schedules and things like that to talk about scripture for 57 minutes.

02:56.50
Nathan Pile
Now, 57 minutes. All right.

02:57.59
Kevin Shock
yes

02:58.90
Nathan Pile
Well, Kevin and I are going to look at Isaiah chapter 44, verses 6 through 8. We're going to read it from the New Revised Standard Version, updated edition.

03:10.46
Nathan Pile
But you could follow along with whatever translation you have close at hand, or you can look it up on the Bible Gateway website, or if you have the Bible Gateway app.

03:23.13
Nathan Pile
think Either one will help you have to find it in the NRSVUE translation. There's lots of translations on the Bible Gateway. So three questions, as is our tradition. The first two are familiar. What word, phrase, or image strikes you in this text? Toward what is God calling you in this text? And the third question, what makes God incomparable?

03:54.42
Kevin Shock
Here's some ah excuse me information about your hosts. We are men married to women in financially stable households, white, firmly in middle age, college and seminary educated.

04:07.29
Kevin Shock
We work in the Lutheran Church and were born and raised in western Pennsylvania. All of this affects how we read scripture and discuss it, but none of this makes us better able to read and discuss scripture than anyone else.

04:19.00
Kevin Shock
We believe that the wisdom of Scripture is the whole community's compiled interpretation for life with God and one another. So we want to know what you hear and think from your life experience.

04:32.47
Kevin Shock
And as Nathan said, we're reading from Isaiah chapter 44, verses 6 through 8 Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts, I am the first and I am the last.

04:46.56
Kevin Shock
Besides me there is no God. Who is like me? Let them proclaim it. Let them declare and set it forth before me. Who has announced from of old the things to come?

04:57.94
Kevin Shock
Let them tell us what is yet to be. Do not fear or be afraid. Have I not told you from of old and declared it? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?

05:10.49
Kevin Shock
There is no other rock. I know not one. If you are meeting with a group or another person, you can pause the podcast now and ask each other the questions on your own.

05:22.94
Kevin Shock
I'm going to ask Nathan what word, phrase, or image strikes you in this text.

05:28.41
Nathan Pile
Um, it's the, uh, so I know we're reading from Isaiah, which is an old Testament book. And so I was, uh, intrigued with the, and his redeemer, um, passage here.

05:39.45
Kevin Shock
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

05:42.25
Nathan Pile
So we, it says, thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his redeemer. Um, so again, the that image, even,

05:54.36
Nathan Pile
And it's Isaiah, and so there's other imagery in the, the book of Isaiah about the one who is coming, the one who God will send.

06:05.27
Nathan Pile
But here we catch that passage, and it kind of sparks my um, my interest and, and curiosity, I guess, of...

06:16.44
Nathan Pile
you know, what else is happening before and after this verse um for Isaiah, that, that Isaiah is talking about both the King and the Redeemer and, um, and who God is.

06:30.52
Nathan Pile
And so we, you know, oftentimes as, as Christians think about Jesus in the New Testament and that that's the only place that exists that we hear some of that language. Again, I think probably in the Old Testament tradition, we also have um we have God and we have God also sending or being the Redeemer

07:02.36
Nathan Pile
ah in language in the Old Testament. But here it gives you that sense that there is both the King and the Redeemer, almost as... as we talk about with the Trinity of of the three persons of God, of God, the creator, God, the, the savior and God, the Holy spirit. And so, so it was just kind of caught my attention as you read it. I was like, Oh, here we are Isaiah and and catching two, um, catching this idea that there's two in this, um, though, again, it would not have been a reality.

07:39.51
Nathan Pile
that would have played out in Isaiah. But again, in the Old Testament, God is also seen as Redeemer, both the King and the Redeemer. And so, but the way this is translated, it, it gives us almost the idea of two of the three persons of God.

07:59.44
Nathan Pile
So that was what caught my attention.

08:00.39
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

08:03.70
Nathan Pile
How about you, my friend? What caught, caught your attention?

08:06.52
Kevin Shock
Yeah, the same, the same thing, the same thing.

08:06.68
Nathan Pile
What word, phrase, or image? Same thing. a

08:09.62
Kevin Shock
um And so I'm, while you were while you were talking, I was doing a little more diving into

08:17.18
Nathan Pile
okay you're doing researching yeah doing some digging

08:20.98
Kevin Shock
Well, yeah, and, and went over to the NET Bible because they have so many notes in that Bible.

08:27.72
Nathan Pile
um

08:27.70
Kevin Shock
It says, it, it says actually in NET for that word to go back and look at the note in Isaiah 41.14.

08:39.74
Kevin Shock
So I did that, and Isaiah says... Don't be afraid, despised, insignificant Jacob, men of Israel. I am helping you, says the Lord, your protector, the Holy One of Israel.

08:57.34
Kevin Shock
And then the note there is, let me scroll down to it because there are so many notes. um In the Hebrew, It's translated as your kinsman redeemer.

09:10.52
Kevin Shock
um NET calls it protector. And it says a go'el, or kinsman redeemer, was a protector of the extended family's interests.

09:26.40
Kevin Shock
So that's the note that we get related to the use of this word 44.

09:38.52
Kevin Shock
Yeah. um And it's really weird because it's like, um it's not even like a sentence, really. This is what, this is what the, yeah, this is what the Lord Israel's King says.

09:48.44
Nathan Pile
It's the beginning of the sentence, sure.

09:53.78
Kevin Shock
Their protector. it doesn't mean, oh, does it mean Israel's protector? Like, Because it's, I don't know.

10:04.41
Kevin Shock
it Like, I had the same reaction you did, that it sounded like it was talking about two different people. But I'm, I'm wondering if it's just describing that word kinsman redeemer to the king. But, yeah.

10:19.13
Kevin Shock
Oh, wait. Oh, because I'm in the wrong translation. ah That's why. I was still in NET. Okay. Oh, yeah. Because the word "and" is there.

10:30.87
Kevin Shock
Okay. The word "and" is not in NET. Hmm.

10:36.60
Kevin Shock
Hmm. Well, this, uh, it certainly changes things. Uh, I mean, it it just adds another dimension to it. It makes me wonder, um, like in CEB what's there. Yeah. And is not in it there.

10:58.04
Nathan Pile
not in the CEB either.

10:59.10
Kevin Shock
Not in the CEB, no. Hmm. going to put down my headphones for a second and go get go grab Alter because I'm interested.

11:09.38
Kevin Shock
So, but to you know, talk more about this, Nathan.

11:12.18
Nathan Pile
I'll vamp while you're away.

11:13.85
Kevin Shock
Yeah, Vamp.

11:14.23
Nathan Pile
um, I can, I can do the play-by-play action.

11:18.33
Nathan Pile
He is now sitting down, running over to the Bible, pulling all three of them off the shelf. So... um

11:29.78
Nathan Pile
It's very exciting. Play-by-play here on podcasting. We did a play-by-play while you were away.

11:37.25
Kevin Shock
You did a play-by-play?

11:38.26
Nathan Pile
Yeah, I did a play-by-play. Let them know.

11:39.26
Kevin Shock
Oh, just a...

11:40.26
Nathan Pile
it's like ah It's like a radio show, like back in the day.

11:42.01
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

11:43.19
Nathan Pile
They couldn't see you, but I told them, I told them, you know, second by second what you were doing.

11:43.48
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

11:48.36
Nathan Pile
They were very, very excited.

11:48.57
Kevin Shock
Okay. Yeah, my, my altar isn't very far. Altar. Altar translation, not my altar, like the altar in the church. Not like that altar. um

11:59.93
Nathan Pile
Yeah, there is a ah biblical scholar by the last name Robert Alter.

12:04.57
Kevin Shock
Yes, Robert Altar. Yeah. Oh, Robert Alter includes the and.

12:12.46
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

12:12.98
Kevin Shock
Thus says the Lord King of Israel and its Redeemer, the Lord of armies. Hmm.

12:21.40
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

12:21.69
Kevin Shock
So does that mean, does that mean that the Lord is Israel, both Israel's King and Redeemer and the Lord of its armies?

12:21.82
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

12:30.10
Kevin Shock
Or the Lord of the heavenly armies, not...

12:30.44
Nathan Pile
Yeah, I think that's the way it would have been understood.

12:36.09
Kevin Shock
hmm.

12:37.66
Nathan Pile
But it again, for us, it kind of shows or shows us, puts words to the, the different relationships that God plays in connection to us.

12:50.62
Kevin Shock
yeah Yeah, well the other difference here is that Robert Alter says, and its Redeemer, which makes it clear that it's Israel, but here it says, and his Redeemer, which

13:04.09
Kevin Shock
I mean, I guess if you're talking about Israel in the sense of like, this is the the tribe of Jacob, you you know, I mean, yeah, the the the tribe of Israel, but thinking about Israel as personifying Israel as a person, which it was before it was a nation, um then the his could be. But I, but when, when, yeah, when it was being read, when I read it, I, that's what...

13:33.14
Kevin Shock
perked up my ears because I was thinking that this is like someone else who is fulfilling a role that God has ordained.

13:46.07
Kevin Shock
If that makes sense.

13:51.29
Kevin Shock
So I wasn't thinking about it as a as Israel's redeemer. No, I, yeah, when we first read it, I wasn't thinking about it as Israel's redeemer. I was thinking about it as like a redeemer that belongs to God.

14:06.36
Kevin Shock
But maybe this is just very simply saying that this is, that the Lord fulfills both, well, all three roles, the the king of Israel, the redeemer of Israel, and the Lord of the heavenly armies or the heavenly hosts.

14:27.93
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

14:31.00
Kevin Shock
But my mind went right where yours did too. that this is this And I think in a translation like this for Christian people, that's what they're, that's what they're thinking.

14:33.47
Nathan Pile
Right.

14:42.42
Kevin Shock
Yeah. um It also makes me think, Nathan, of the... oh but I can't remember the number, but I know I heard it at one point.

14:55.86
Kevin Shock
That there were all these different names for God that um the ancient Israelites would have used um not that God was different but the, to highlight the different characteristics or personalities or roles that god plays so even in that uh even in that Hebrew word from that I, we heard from the net bible for kinsman redeemer the word is go'el, "el" is a word for God

15:27.70
Kevin Shock
So like, it's like that, that could be go'el could be one of those names of God. um And, oh, I'm trying to think, like, I, I didn't really learn these names. And I think some of these names are more popular and more like fundamental or evangelical circles, but like El Shaddai.

15:47.38
Kevin Shock
I can't remember what El Shaddai means, but that's a name that people use, Elohim. um Yeah, we, in, in very poorly translated English, we talk about Jehovah-Jireh.

16:01.89
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

16:02.17
Kevin Shock
which is, the I think, the God of Victory or the Lord of Victory. I can't remember, but yeah. um Yeah, so they're like ah this is this could be Isaiah's way of naming God in different ways and yeah lifting up different attributes, characteristics, personalities of God.

16:25.88
Kevin Shock
I don't know. That's just a guess, though.

16:29.88
Nathan Pile
Well, it's interesting that by, that that "and" caught both of our attentions here this morning.

16:33.72
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was right off the bat when I read it. i even thought to myself, well I didn't really notice that when I was choosing these texts earlier.

16:45.75
Nathan Pile
So now, all right, you let's do this a second time.

16:45.94
Kevin Shock
But there it is.

16:49.75
Kevin Shock
Yeah, sure.

16:56.38
Nathan Pile
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts. I am the first and I am the last. Besides me, there is no God.

17:08.63
Nathan Pile
Who is like me? Let them proclaim it. Let them declare and set it forth before me. Who has announced from of old the things to come?

17:20.44
Nathan Pile
Let them tell us what is yet to be. Do not fear or be afraid. Have I not told you from of old and declared it? You are my witnesses.

17:33.11
Nathan Pile
Is there any God besides me? There is no other rock. I know not one.

17:42.49
Nathan Pile
Kevin, toward what is God calling you in this text?

17:50.01
Kevin Shock
um I think I have a a philosophical or theoretical answer for it, but I don't know the practicality of it. um I um it ah to think I want to say to hold God as... I don't even know how to say it, because in theological language, I feel like I'm going to talk myself into a corner here.

18:20.95
Kevin Shock
um ah to recognize to recognize that God is the most important thing in my life. that's I wasn't going to try to say it theologically anymore. I was just going to try to say it plainly.

18:37.53
Kevin Shock
um Which you know leads down a road of, well, well, of course God is the most important thing in my life. But, but living that out day in and day out does not that's not what it looks like, if that makes sense.

18:53.91
Kevin Shock
Like there are, in any given moment of any day, there are a million other things that take my attention away from God. And maybe not like entirely away from God or like in the opposite direction of God, but, but I'm thinking about things. There are things that drive me to do something other than God, there are things or I should say there are things other than God that drive me to do something. There are.

19:28.38
Kevin Shock
things and people that I'm concerned about. um And maybe not out of, not for righteous reasons, but could be selfish reasons or it could be anxious reason, reasons. Yeah,

19:46.36
Kevin Shock
yeah I just, ah I don't know. I've been, I think this is reflective of just something I've been thinking about a lot more about what, what role the Lord actually takes in my life. And I would say that, you know, I'm, I'm not saying that God is not central to the things that I say and do. God is certainly central to the things I say and do. I like to think I'm receptive to what God is leading me to do and say.

20:11.42
Kevin Shock
um But there are just, there are lots of times throughout the day whenever I i find myself going down a road where I'm

20:24.57
Kevin Shock
worried about something or concerned about something or seeking something. And when i when I'm able to take a step back and look, I'm thinking to myself, you're not considering God's role in this. I guess i guess that's a way to put it.

20:44.57
Kevin Shock
I don't know. I, um, An example. So I was at a congregation this past weekend to for an anniversary celebration, and um and for a retirement celebration for their pastor and I had the opportunity to preach at three different services on Saturday night and two on Sunday morning and uh

21:13.85
Kevin Shock
So a couple of things quick. The pastor there is used to a very casual like dress style and things like that. So, so I wanted to be, um you know, I like to not defer, but reflect what how you know what the ministry is like in that place. So Saturday night I wore like my short sleeve,

21:34.46
Kevin Shock
Uh, Bishop shirt and, and casual pants and, and a stole. And next morning I did wear, I wear a suit, but I, I don't like wearing a suit jacket with a stole. So I took the suit jacket off, I put the stole on, but I had like dress pants on and like a long sleeve Bishop shirt.

21:45.38
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

21:49.85
Kevin Shock
and, And then for the third service, um the the choir director came in and I overheard him saying to someone, what what do you mean the Bishop's not wearing his miter or carrying his Crozier?

22:03.90
Kevin Shock
He hadn't been there for the other two services. Well, he, he grew up Anglican. I mean, like Church of England Anglican. and And he said to me, he said to me something along lines of, um I think a problem that we have in the church is that we just treat it like it's everyday life.

22:18.98
Kevin Shock
Like there's nothing special going on here when we're here.

22:20.74
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

22:21.50
Kevin Shock
And I was like, oh, man, you got me. Okay. And so I went out to the car.

22:25.34
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

22:27.13
Kevin Shock
I put together my Crozier. I got my miter. I put on a robe and a stole and a chasuble. And then I had people afterwards say, we really appreciate that you dressed up for this service.

22:42.24
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

22:42.97
Kevin Shock
And I was like, oh, okay, all right. um But anyway, someone actually said like it like it changed the feeling, but also at that service, there was more music. like there were There was a lot more going on at that last service.

22:55.41
Kevin Shock
And they just said it was, it was reflective of the service itself.

22:56.19
Nathan Pile
Sure. Hmm.

22:58.89
Kevin Shock
So they know they appreciate it. But that, that's all to say, I also recognize that I preached three different sermons. And I mean, they all had the same kind of, I was all going toward the same direction.

23:12.86
Kevin Shock
But Saturday night was certainly more casual. Early Sunday morning was a little more put together. And then as I was, kind of as I was getting dressed, in the midst of, midst of all of that conversation.

23:26.68
Kevin Shock
I, I felt like the sermon needs something else. And. and what the spirit told me what I interpret as the spirit is that the people needed more good news and um Because I think I was falling into a ah kind of a pattern of like, like I wanted to be, I wanted to be honest. You know, we were reflecting like there was, there was some tension in the room, not, not bad tension, but this is like, we're celebrating this congregation's anniversary. We're celebrating this beloved pastor and next week they're not going to have a pastor.

24:09.72
Nathan Pile
Right.

24:10.81
Kevin Shock
And so I wanted to lift that up to say like, I'm, I'm aware of that tension. I'm living in that tension with you. I want you to know that. And, and I think people appreciated that, but um it was the, it was the gospel reading about when Jesus sends out the apostles, you know, that don't, don't take anything with you, just rely on hospitality in the places that you go.

24:35.35
Kevin Shock
And um so I talked about like, you know, there are times and in the life of the church where We feel like we don't have a bag or sandals or gold or silver or copper or staff or anything. you know and, And those are the times when we can actually turn to rely on the one who is, the one who leads us and guides us.

24:56.22
Kevin Shock
we don't, we don't have any, When we don't have anything to rely on of our own, we're free to rely on God. And, um you know, I kind of talked about even even if we feel like we have no bag, no sandals and all that other stuff, I said, what we do have is we have a shepherd.

25:14.30
Kevin Shock
We have a shepherd who is there to provide and to guide.

25:14.53
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

25:17.21
Kevin Shock
um and And Jesus says in that same gospel lesson that the harvest is plentiful. There are all kinds of lost people out there who need the voice of a savior.

25:32.28
Kevin Shock
And we know who that is. And Jesus says in that gospel reading, um since the harvest is plentiful and the laborers are few, just ask the Lord of the harvest to send more laborers.

25:49.82
Kevin Shock
And I was like that's, that's our plan. That's our plan for this church. That's our plan for the church of the whole. to to pray that God will send more laborers. And we don't necessarily mean pastors. We might mean we might mean people in, in these very congregations who are lifted up to do ministry in new ways.

26:08.02
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

26:07.99
Kevin Shock
um but Or we might mean people who come in off the street and are excited about ministry. Like, we don't know what that means.

26:15.86
Nathan Pile
Right.

26:15.83
Kevin Shock
But God says, if this is the issue, just ask me to rectify it.

26:17.16
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

26:20.50
Kevin Shock
But we, me, speaking for myself, this is a very long example to tell to get to the root of my problem. i I fall into, and I was doing it with the sermon this past weekend, I fall into wanting to fix things for people.

26:36.50
Kevin Shock
And it's not mine to fix. You and I talk about this a lot, Nathan. This is not a Kevin-sized problem. This is a God-sized problem. so, So I think for me, what this what this reading is calling me toward is...

26:42.13
Nathan Pile
Right.

26:48.73
Kevin Shock
toward a recognition that God is the one who is going to fix these things. And what that requires of me is that I am a witness to what God is doing, which means I have to have an open ear and an open heart to receive what God is doing.

27:04.38
Nathan Pile
Well, and I think the thing that, as you were talking and sharing, the thing that sticks out to me is how you were a witness, specifically in the life of this congregation through those three services, where you initially walked in trying to say, I'm going to be here with you and trying to not, not, not disturb, but...

27:15.91
Kevin Shock
Hmm.

27:24.15
Nathan Pile
um

27:24.82
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

27:25.08
Nathan Pile
trying to live into the style that you are. But over the course of even those three, as you even admitted, there were three different sermons. So each time you tried to tweak it a little bit to the congregation or the community that's there, witnessing to the people who were present and something between the second conversation, the second service and the third service, which was a conversation with the musicians,

27:47.38
Nathan Pile
helped you again to see even different thing. And so even in our witness, you're willing to make those shifts, recognizing that we're not, that people aren't the same people.

27:50.40
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

28:00.02
Nathan Pile
You know, they're, they're, they probably do have a very specific tradition between each of those three services.

28:06.65
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

28:07.42
Nathan Pile
that are different in and of themselves. And you as the interpreter, again, that's oftentimes what we become as preachers and pastors is, yes, there's different translations, but we become an interpreter for the community of how we see God in the world. And each of those congregations, each of those communities worshiping believers,

28:34.97
Nathan Pile
community of the the faithful ah each of those three communities you were doing the best you could to be a witness to those people in that place at that time um and I think that's the that one when when we're told that we're witnesses and that's all of us this isn't this passage isn't just speaking to preachers um yeah, God is telling us hey you got to be paying attention um

28:58.62
Kevin Shock
No, of course not.

29:05.59
Nathan Pile
because we're the ones that have the, we're we're the ones looking for God in the world. um And so as we do that, then, you know, God is, you know, even in this passage, the the the king and redeemer are asking us questions.

29:26.52
Nathan Pile
You know, who is like me? is there anybody Is there anybody besides me? And our response as witnesses is to say no and then to try to help the people that are that we are among to see and hear God today in the world.

29:47.19
Nathan Pile
So.

29:48.31
Kevin Shock
yeah yeah that's the other line that um sticks out at me from this from this reading is that that you you are my witnesses yeah yeah I mean that's that's spoken to Israel but it might as well be spoken to the church today as well

30:00.98
Nathan Pile
Yeah, that was my second one.

30:06.01
Nathan Pile
Right.

30:06.96
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

30:07.77
Nathan Pile
Absolutely. and, and, And then how do we,

30:13.84
Nathan Pile
we get into, the like how do we do that? How do we live that out? how do we How do we be witnesses? And I think your story you know is, is helpful in illustrating for us that us witnessing can happen in lots of ways.

30:32.57
Nathan Pile
you know oftentimes we think of that that word witness in our culture is a witness of a crime, right? Like you have to go sit and you have to go to the court and you have to sit in the seat and you have to tell people what you saw.

30:38.23
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

30:45.75
Nathan Pile
And so that's one image of witness. um But I think there's lots of others and in your your story helped us, helped me see you witnessing to this congregation, both in celebration And in the in the things that we might have held a little bit closer to ourselves, but the sadness of next week, we don't have a leader.

31:13.62
Nathan Pile
um And what's the, what's the good news of that? Like we're celebrating today, but what's the good news of that tomorrow? How do we have hope tomorrow? And being able to hear that from you to say, you're not gonna walk it alone.

31:28.73
Nathan Pile
that' that's how it's That's how God's community continues.

31:33.72
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah.

31:34.52
Nathan Pile
you're you're losing a leader that has been with you every day for many, many, over 20 years. i don't how many. He's been there a lot long time. 30 years?

31:43.00
Kevin Shock
Nathan, 38.

31:45.29
Nathan Pile
38 years. So second call.

31:47.06
Kevin Shock
he's, He's been ordained 44. This was his second call. and, and, And to put it even more perspective, this was a mission congregation. The congregation is 60 years old. So he's been their pastor for almost two-thirds of the entire congregation's existence.

31:59.84
Nathan Pile
Thirds of it. Well, yeah.

32:01.75
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

32:03.35
Nathan Pile
Yeah, so there's lots of things. There's lots of concern there. And so to be able to say this leader will move on. This leader is retiring.

32:13.37
Kevin Shock
who

32:15.19
Nathan Pile
But there are, but God's going nowhere. And there are other leaders that will walk with you in this, I think is powerful.

32:22.30
Kevin Shock
yeah yeah well and and to be to to be fair to the congregation too um there is um I, their anxiety is not um

32:24.22
Nathan Pile
Powerful message.

32:34.52
Kevin Shock
not overwhelming and I think in part because of the work that the pastor there has done in raising up disciples there are people who are in strong positions of leadership they're not as pastor but in in other ways that are working to to keep the congregation in in a thriving place um during this transition but um yeah

32:41.87
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

32:48.53
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

32:58.33
Kevin Shock
and And I also want to lift up to that, like, I was certainly there to bear witness, but people were bearing witness to me, too. And that was I mean, that was the primary reason why my witness changed was because people were speaking up and saying, hey, this is, you know, not this is something I think you should do, but this is um this this is what the ah this is what the church, you know, this is what the church can be.

33:06.42
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

33:11.79
Nathan Pile
Sure.

33:26.62
Kevin Shock
and and that you know not just that conversation with the with the music minister but other conversations I was having there too helped me to realize what my role in that place is and at that time and that's and that's the spirit speaking through those people, yeah, yeah, yeah, uh what about you Nathan toward what is God calling you in this text

33:41.84
Nathan Pile
Right.

33:46.52
Nathan Pile
Absolutely. The witness of all of us.

33:54.36
Nathan Pile
Well, my it's definitely this that word of witness and how we do that. And, and I, you know, we've, we've talked about it pretty thoroughly here. I don't know that I have a lot to add to it other than to just kind of say that it too is the thing that I feel like I'm called toward is to being witness and helping others be witness of witnesses of what and how we see God in the world. um whatever that looks like obviously I'm um I'm in summer camp right now and so I have a staff of a third 30 plus and and so there's a part of all of that that makes me um you know mindful of how do you know as the executive director and and

34:43.38
Nathan Pile
and pastor here at camp, how do I help them be witnesses? Yes, these 10 weeks that we're together during summer camp, but also how do I make ah an indent in their lives that is a God-sized indent? like it's It's us as a community making that dent. It's not Nathan making that dent, but it's God and the Holy Spirit through this community making a God-sized dent in their lives so that so that then they become witnesses in, in you know, back at college, back at high school, back in their home country, where you know wherever they're they will go after this um time and place, how will they um be those witnesses? How will they be able to point and say, this God is unique. This God is the only one that does the things that seem

35:39.54
Nathan Pile
amazing, that are full and bigger than than what you and I can do, even though at times we place ourselves as gods in our own lives, recognizing that that's That's our sin talking. That's our, our brokenness and our bound up in our own selfish wants that that get us thinking that. That in reality, there's, there's, there is only one creator, redeemer.

36:12.66
Nathan Pile
And in this passage, king and redeemer who is leading the way. so

36:24.66
Nathan Pile
That's what I got.

36:24.88
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Okay. Well, I think you said, uh, you said some things in that response that make me want to move on to the third.

36:35.74
Nathan Pile
That's the third question.

36:35.86
Kevin Shock
the question yeah yeah

36:36.54
Nathan Pile
and, and, Yep.

36:39.48
Kevin Shock
About the um how exactly we bear witness to the God who is not like any other God.

36:45.94
Nathan Pile
Any other gods, right?

36:46.23
Kevin Shock
um Yeah. All right. From Isaiah 44. thus says the lord the king of Israel and his redeemer the lord of hosts I am the first and i am the last besides me there is no god who is like me let them proclaim it let them declare and set it forth before me who has announced from of old the things to come let us Let them tell us what is yet to be. Do not fear or be afraid.

37:12.60
Kevin Shock
Have I not told you from of old and declared it? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? There is no other rock. I know not one.

37:23.71
Kevin Shock
Nathan, what makes God incomparable?

37:28.60
Nathan Pile
This goes back, like just as I, as I read the question the first time today and even listening to you read it now, it goes back to my question of my youth of who made God.

37:40.92
Nathan Pile
like I don't,

37:41.64
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

37:42.26
Nathan Pile
I don't know if I know the answer to this. it's just a part, you know, It's a part of who God is. It's a part of the nature of God um that makes God incomparable to other people.

37:57.66
Nathan Pile
And ah and I can, I can point to the things that I attribute to God, like love. um The source of love is God for me. And so what makes God incomparable is that that this divine being is motivated and ruled by love, more so than any other kind of, you know, any other...

38:28.64
Nathan Pile
stories of gods and of our own human selfishness um we typically go to power control having more than everyone else this god isn't about those motivations and so the thing that that you know the one of the things that stick out to me are these attributes of God, these values of God, of who God is um what makes God incomparable.

38:59.06
Nathan Pile
Um, you know, again, it goes back to that. Like and that, that, that's ah an answer that I'm not sure exactly how I crack that Um, I can kind of point at the attributes.

39:09.69
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

39:12.51
Nathan Pile
I can point at the things that I value as a believer, um, about what makes, what separates God from others, uh, in, in both, um,

39:25.03
Nathan Pile
mythology and theology uh but I'm the, the what of that may is a little hard for me um but i'm not a the my guess is you want to talk about where i'm at which is the values and you know how do i how do i know that these things separate god from those other places and spaces. and And, you know, some of it is obviously by experience, the communities of faith that I've been in, the witnesses who have come before and have pointed the way, family members and mentors, teachers, people who have helped point to God. And and through my own life experiences,

40:12.79
Nathan Pile
I keep coming back to saying, boy, there's nothing that really compares to God. There's not another, in this image, it talks about a rock. and There's no other foundation that is as strong as what I've been taught by the witnesses that have taught me who God is.

40:31.39
Nathan Pile
I've not encountered it in my lifetime. And so the lessons and the, and the, attributes of God that are, are both given to God, and attributed to God, are or what stick out to me of who this God is. And that's what sets God apart. is And specifically, that, that word love is, is one of those pieces.

41:01.29
Nathan Pile
Forgiveness, and you know to think about a a God that forgives. not because I've done all of the things right or made a sacrifice right, or that I've said, I'm sorry in the deepest, most meaningful ways.

41:15.35
Nathan Pile
God says, I forgive you not because of any of my actions or any of my word, but because that's the nature of God. Um, you know, that, that piece of, of, of love and forgiveness that, that word we use as grace, that, that piece of God as mercy, merciful,

41:35.29
Nathan Pile
those are the, Those are the pieces that I think make God incomparable because everything else that we seem to encounter in our world and, and in our histories are about power and control.

41:52.69
Nathan Pile
Having the most toys, having the most money, having the most riches, the treasure. um None of that is, is where

42:03.99
Nathan Pile
our God, Lives. Resides.

42:08.38
Kevin Shock
yeah, yeah, yeah, there, yeah, there you go, there you go. That's, yeah, I, right, you're right, Nathan. This question is a tough nut to crack because it, it, what it, um

42:25.53
Kevin Shock
Yeah, it's, it's like asking, it's like asking someone to explain, what what makes this different from anything else that you know? And, well, we can only really speak in terms of what we know.

42:37.50
Kevin Shock
um But I think for me, it, it is the, that God, God knows what we do not know. um And, you know, you think about like the like the the the the Roman cultic gods But even even before Roman times, I mean, that you know thinking about Paul walking around Athens and seeing all these different altars to different gods, but thinking about all the gods that you know the Israelites were warned about, the you know the gods of their the inhabitants of the land where they were.

43:13.37
Kevin Shock
all of these gods had like specific purposes. You know, if you were if you were looking for a harvest, you prayed, a good harvest, you prayed to this one God or you offered something to this God.

43:24.15
Kevin Shock
This God of Israel, the one who is speaking here through the prophet, this is this is the Lord of all things. and And so as the Lord of all things,

43:38.71
Kevin Shock
Like those, those individual gods that, well, I mean, this reading says don't even exist, really. um There is no other god.

43:51.03
Kevin Shock
um It's not that we don't try to make gods for ourselves. We certainly do that. And, and if we think that we don't do it, in the way that the Romans or the, or the Canaanites did it or anything like that, we're mistaking ourselves. We have all kinds of gods that we worship.

44:09.43
Kevin Shock
um

44:12.50
Kevin Shock
Yeah, but anyway, we don't have to go down that road. um Not too far, at least. um What I think about the God of Israel and the God of Jacob and the God of the universe, the God of all things, is that whenever I am praying for something and the more specific it becomes, maybe the worse it gets.

44:38.66
Kevin Shock
Uh, but what God, what makes God, God is that God can, God knows all of the ripple effects that that situation or the thing that I'm praying for has in the world.

44:54.07
Kevin Shock
And God is able to, um

44:59.96
Kevin Shock
be aware and even bring awareness of

45:06.04
Kevin Shock
the, the thing that is most helpful and life giving, not just to me, but to everyone. And, and I think that that's, that's something like I, I recognize, I recognize in my own, even, you know, even the notion that like, um,

45:27.16
Kevin Shock
Well, no one knows you better than you. that's, That's true from a human perspective. It's not true from a holy perspective. God knows us better than we know ourselves.

45:38.01
Kevin Shock
and, And so, like, I think that's what makes God incomparable. um Any other idol is something that we use for our own purposes.

45:52.02
Kevin Shock
But God can see... a whole picture much, much bigger than our own purposes or what we think is right for us or best for us. And, um, to me, that's what makes God incomparable.

46:12.63
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

46:17.56
Kevin Shock
And not, not even things at the present moment, but you know, what has been and what is to come. That's, yeah.

46:30.90
Kevin Shock
Yeah,

46:31.58
Nathan Pile
Well, again, there's a richness of that.

46:36.31
Nathan Pile
Just because I can't think of a better word right now, the legacy of God.

46:42.43
Nathan Pile
know the the the forever nature of who God is over thousands of generations.

46:47.90
Kevin Shock
Sure.

46:51.22
Nathan Pile
um

46:51.19
Kevin Shock
Right.

46:52.76
Nathan Pile
you know, You and I started this by connecting to the, that word "and" in between King and Redeemer. God has had lots of different titles and names trying to understand and explain who God is, but that the essence of God of merciful, gracious, generous, all of those, you know, we hear those words both in the Old Testament and the New Testament.

47:24.54
Nathan Pile
So across generations, this is who God is.

47:25.58
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

47:28.54
Kevin Shock
hu

47:29.08
Nathan Pile
um No matter the day and time that we look at, at God the Creator, God

47:38.87
Nathan Pile
humanity has seen God to be similar, the nature of who God is and what God does in the world.

47:49.80
Nathan Pile
Again, that that idea of witness that is also woven into this short passage, you know, it's and we're only talking about three verses here, six, seven, and eight. um And if my staff would say six, seven, yeah, they do it all the time, man.

48:01.78
Kevin Shock
Right. no, No, no, no, no, no. You didn't even have to go there.

48:06.18
Nathan Pile
It's crazy. Yeah. I wanted to the older generation to experience what's the younger generation is living out.

48:13.12
Kevin Shock
Oh, thanks.

48:17.99
Nathan Pile
um but but it's, So it's a short passage, but there's all of this richness kind of woven into this passage. Again, when we're talking about...

48:29.21
Nathan Pile
The divine one, the you know, what do they call it? What, what does the CEB? The human one, meaning Jesus, the Christ, the savior.

48:36.66
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For son of man.

48:38.44
Nathan Pile
You know, infinite singularity, the one that is God.

48:39.54
Kevin Shock
Yep. Yeah.

48:44.10
Nathan Pile
um From all of these different perspectives, the witnesses bring about the common themes that that we see in God, which is, I think, extraordinary.

49:03.16
Nathan Pile
Are there nuances to those things?

49:03.54
Kevin Shock
yeah

49:05.12
Nathan Pile
Absolutely. Over the course of thousands and thousands of years.

49:06.52
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah.

49:08.32
Nathan Pile
Do we have more language now than there was when these things were written? Absolutely. And so do we get even deeper and more nitpicky about the words that define who God is?

49:18.96
Nathan Pile
Absolutely. But the, The essence has always been there and and we as humankind have always experienced it and tried to point to it and say this is who God is, which again is extraordinary to me.

49:34.69
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

49:37.94
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Um, I, yeah, something that was in my head recently that I can't even remember where it came from. I just, I was thinking about, well, I know what it was related to. It was related to, um,

49:51.48
Kevin Shock
the ordination of women in our church, in the church. Because as we record this, the Southern Baptist Convention has recently voted to bar women from public ministry in even more substantial ways than they already have been.

50:05.10
Nathan Pile
Mm.

50:09.22
Kevin Shock
And, and we're in a, we're in a church body that ordains women and recognizes their gifts for pastoral ministry.

50:09.50
Nathan Pile
Mm.

50:19.10
Kevin Shock
um and, and I, I have lived in such a bubble, but I think, I think as a bishop, Um, the bubble has been popped a little bit to recognize how many people and places out there are not in support of women as pastors.

50:34.35
Nathan Pile
Mm.

50:34.81
Kevin Shock
And um it just got me thinking that the the the more sturdy we construct our box to fit God into the more wildly offended we are whenever we recognize or are forced to recognize that God is unbound and not able to be boxed in.

51:01.80
Kevin Shock
I, like I just, I think and, and I, I recognize that it's my privilege coming from a church tradition where we do ordain women and where I have been the recipient of the pastoral gifts of women.

51:15.54
Kevin Shock
um Like to me, I just, I think, I can't help but think,

51:26.01
Kevin Shock
or, or I can't understand, that's what I want to say, I can't understand why someone in ah in a different tradition even would think that the problem in the church is ordaining women.

51:38.47
Nathan Pile
Right.

51:39.03
Kevin Shock
Like there are so many more problems in our church and in our world And recognizing the gifts of people for the gifts that God has given them is not problematic compared to the way that we worship other gods. And um and ah and it and it even got me thinking about, like, do they actually worship God or do they worship an idol?

52:03.42
Kevin Shock
And...

52:06.14
Kevin Shock
that's or They probably think that we worship an idol too. So maybe that's a, you know, maybe it's a fair question on both sides. I don't know. But I know that we have problems of idolatry in the church, in our church.

52:19.20
Nathan Pile
Sure.

52:19.64
Kevin Shock
I don't think that the ordination of women is one of those problems.

52:22.26
Nathan Pile
There's one of those. Yeah.

52:23.72
Kevin Shock
We have so many other things that we see as idols that we that we worship, that we put before God. um Yeah.

52:32.68
Nathan Pile
I

52:33.02
Kevin Shock
Anyway. Any other thoughts you have, Nathan, about this passage or anything related to it?

52:40.38
Nathan Pile
don't. No.

52:44.15
Kevin Shock
Or the incomparable and unknowable nature of God? any Anything that you think is helpful to add? ah

52:53.56
Nathan Pile
No, I'm good.

52:54.94
Kevin Shock
Okay. All right.

52:56.95
Nathan Pile
But I have some, some additional texts that if you're looking for something else to kind of dig into this week, I have several readings here.

53:08.09
Nathan Pile
So the additional texts include Wisdom of Solomon, chapter 12, verse 13 and 16 through 19. Again, here it's talking about God's sovereignty, both righteousness and forbearing.

53:21.98
Nathan Pile
Psalm 86, verses 11 through 17, teach me your way, O Lord, and I will walk in your truth. Romans chapter 8, verses 12 to 25, the revealing of the children of God and the gospel Matthew, 13th chapter.

53:43.38
Nathan Pile
Verses 24 to 30 and 36 to 43. This is the parable of the weeds. And then the semi-continuous passages that occur over the ordinary time of summer. So this would be if they're, if you're wanting to kind of read, read connections of the Old Testament the and, and the psalm, reading these, try to connect.

54:07.19
Nathan Pile
um So it has multiple passages. chapters and verse in Genesis and the sun you know so it's trying to connect the stories um maybe a little bit more so than the way that the lectionary is is set up um genesis 28 verses 10 through nineteen a this is Jacob's dream of the ladder to heaven and then psalm 139 verses 1 to 12 and 23 through 24.

54:37.40
Nathan Pile
You have searched me in and out. This is ah so one of the passages sometimes used in funerals. It talks about God's being with us from the beginnings of our creation until the end of ends up time.

54:43.97
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm.

54:51.10
Nathan Pile
So um as always, Kevin, I appreciate your reflections and sharing your thoughts and, and, and, and even putting together our questions for us that spark our conversation each, each week. So thank you for that, my friend.

55:09.21
Nathan Pile
We hope to tend our faith with you again soon. Grace to you.

55:14.63
Kevin Shock
And peace.