SPEAKER_01 0:02

Hey guys, it's Daja. This is Kara.

Ed 0:05

And this is Ed.

SPEAKER_01 0:06

And this is the day's dumpster fire.

Ed 0:38

Oh, that went okay.

Kara 0:40

We did it. It's fine. That was a trash can fire in the making.

Ed 0:44

It I think Deja's on mute.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Here we are. Why do I almost it's a problem? So today's trash can fire.

Kara 1:01

Actually, yes. Exactly what I was thinking.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Between the three of us, we don't know how to technology. That's correct.

Ed 1:11

Yeah, at least. I mean, it's a lifestyle. You get used to it. Yeah.

Kara 1:16

It's also 9 p.m. on a Wednesday.

Ed 1:18

So we're yeah, none of us want to be alive right now. No, we're old. That's fine. I'm so sleepy. So yeah. I mean, we we've we've got part one of a rather interesting episode, I think.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Yeah, this is gonna be a buckle up. But first a lot.

Ed 1:41

But first, what what what do we have for our trash can fire? Because I feel like we're all literally on the same page.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

I think our wave lake, I don't even know. Yeah, they're there. They're we're all there on the same page for sure.

Kara 1:55

So for for our our listeners, it is the week before spring break starts. Pretty sure there was a full moon last week. And I'm thinking maybe something is off with the gravitational pool of the world at the moment because our students have been my eyes are closed and my fingers are over them because you you can physically see them vibrate with energy. Like their energy level is through the root, and then when you go to redirect them and you're like, okay, it's let's focus. We gotta get this done. We're trying to have like a good a good day, like a good Friday or whatever, and they you can see them physically like try to contain it.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

They're like, Okay, okay, right?

Kara 2:39

And then they lose it like two seconds later.

SPEAKER_01 2:43

Like Levi's down.

Ed 2:44

Yeah, you redirect them, like, okay, uh, you you have one five-minute assignment due. I just need you to do this five-minute assignment, and they're like, okay. And then four seconds later, they're on the opposite side of the room just doing crazy stuff.

Kara 3:05

Yeah, yeah. And you can tell they try. Like, I I that's why you can't be too mad because they do, they try really hard.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

And then they just are to the sweet, precious children that they are. They are sweet but psychos at the moment.

Ed 3:26

They're like that acorn that falls from a tree, and we just have to wonder how far that nut is going to fall away from a path of stability.

SPEAKER_01 3:40

I literally it's it's the acorn from Ice Age, is what you're saying.

Ed 3:46

Yeah, I I had a superintendent explain it to me that all students are like acorns that fall from a tree, and it all depends on how far that little nut is gonna go somewhere. And um I I know what he means. I I I I get that because this since Tuesday, it's just been like get can you just can you write your name on the paper?

SPEAKER_01 4:16

That's it.

Ed 4:17

Just just write your name. And then four seconds later, they're outside.

Kara 4:24

They're like outside running laps. And then when you tell them, please go outside and run a lap because you have so much energy, and they're happy to do it, but it doesn't work.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

It doesn't work, and we can't just run children all day long to burn energy. It's probably really cruel to do that. So here we go. I don't know.

Ed 4:49

When I was in the laboratory, when I was in the seventh grade, I was expected to run a seven-minute mile.

SPEAKER_01 4:57

Same, and it sucked, and I complained.

Ed 5:00

All of this had to run a seven-minute mile, and I wasn't allowed to use a golf cart, so I was a little pissed.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

They had to tie me to a to a string to make sure that I could run a mile.

Ed 5:14

You're just being dragged floating in the air. That's it. Floating away like a balloon. You're a deja kite just floating away. So, yeah, that's like that's our conjoined uh trash can fire, I think. Uh Kara, I I I rudely interrupted you.

Kara 5:38

Ah, you're good. Okay. I forgot.

Ed 5:41

Good. Well, that's our show. So we'll catch in next time.

Kara 5:46

See you later. You're welcome.

Ed 5:51

But no, we we've we've got an absolutely insane episode. I kind of knew something about this topic, but clearly I didn't know enough. So we're diving into salmon salmon rushti.

SPEAKER_01 6:09

You gotta say salmon rushti. Yeah, that's what I've heard from everyone who has an accent, whether it's an English accent or whether from the Middle East. Yeah, it doesn't matter. It's just Rushdie. So I'm saying Rushdie.

Ed 6:27

Yeah. Yeah, I'm I'm down with that because like this guy wrote one book and it turned into a death sentence and like a bounty and a warrant for his death. And yeah, oh my goodness, did it blow up over the decades.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

It it I think it's honestly a very important story to to be told, even though it's been going on since uh 1947 when Salman Rusty was born. Because that was the year of the Indian uh independence, right? I thought that was 1945. 1947. Was it? Okay. Because it was the year that he was born.

Ed 7:12

I thought he was born according to Wikipedia, which is highly accurate. Uh it said that he was born two years after the Indian independence, after the World War II conclusion. Not that it matters at all, but there's the uh Trist with Destiny story that came out at the same time of the India's independence that was the midnight of 1945. I could be wrong. I'm probably wrong.

SPEAKER_01 7:43

It's I don't know. I'm wrong. Those are not coming out of my word, out of my mouth, out of my words, just so you know. But they were, it was the same year. Just gonna let you know.

Ed 8:00

Oh, wait, yeah, no, okay, so I just I just googled when did India gain independence. It was August 15th, 1947.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

1947.

Ed 8:10

Okay, so I was clearly wrong on that.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

And when Salman Rushdie's birthday is was born June 19th. June 19th, yep, you're right.

Ed 8:21

1947.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

September.

Ed 8:24

So close enough.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

It's the same year.

Ed 8:27

Yeah. We'll we'll take that.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

So it's it, yeah, it's been really going on for quite some time. And um, I don't know, I think it's a very important story to tell because it really shows um how far something that you think is so minuscule, something that's so easy to happen, which is words, um, writing can turn into death sentence, you know. And it it it goes into so many very important topics, at least in my opinion, you know, you've got some unfortunate racism, which it's history. What isn't racist about history at this point? Um, but it affected a lot of people's lives, and it wasn't just Salman Rashti who who had to go through some pretty large, scary, dark obstacles in order to continue living. Um so to kind of jump into things, Salman Rashti is an author who's written 13 novels, including Midnight's Children, which won him a booker prize in 1981. He, of course, as we are talking about this, he is the author of the famous, infamous Satanic Verses, um, which was a book that created mass mania and just explosive enrage, and it was, I mean, it was banned in 13 countries, and it it was very offensive towards the Muslim religion.

Ed 10:01

And um What year was that book written?

SPEAKER_01 10:04

This was written in 1988, is when it was published.

Ed 10:10

Okay, so we're talking because I I remember my mom who entered the satanic panic in the mid-80s and she never left it. And she mentioned this book as one of the most evil, vile, cultish books ever written that would send anybody into the depths of hell if they ever read it. And I'm like, I kind of read a synopsis, and it doesn't seem like that.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

It's not, no offense to your mom. With all due respect, it's not that whatsoever.

Ed 10:45

Uh, she's dead, it's fine.

SPEAKER_01 10:47

Um, the last part of it, um it did create a situation where you will probably go to the depths of hell, you know, a specific community's eyes. I won't disagree with that part.

Ed 11:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

It's very true.

Ed 11:03

Um like you could you could see why some people would find it offensive and culturally offensive and all that.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

Absolutely. And this is kind of going into a little bit of that cancel culture that we we have nowadays that's so, so in our face. It's everywhere, you know. You can't, you can't really say anything without being cancel. You you have to censor everything, you have to think really deeply about the words that come out of your mouth so that someone isn't offended, which is I am someone who believes in the freedom of speech. And my own personal opinion, it's just me. But I feel like people, we need to give people a platform and make our own decision from there. If they are sputing BS and it's it's just foul language, it's just profanities, it's it's discriminatory. We need to be able to hear those things to make our own choices, to make our own, our own belief system. We have to have those nasty negativity, that that nasty negativity, the the negative comments, the negative words, the negative actions, in order for us to have our own set of morals, if you will. That's my own belief. That's something that I stand strong on. I do believe people should have that freedom of speech and be able to practice it.

Ed 12:19

But I'm well, um it you bring up a good point because this is a conversation that that Kara and I have had many times where I kind of want to dive into the modern politics a little bit. But Kara correctly brings up the point that is the instant we dive into modern politics, and I'm the kind of guy that's like, I'm in the middle, we we need the left and the right talking to each other to make the best decisions. So like I don't I don't see any one side being more correct or worse than the other, but oh my god, the world we live in now.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

It feels like you have to choose a side, yeah.

Ed 13:02

And and as soon as you choose a side, you are immediately the enemy of the other side, and you will be viciously attacked.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

And that comes into play a lot with this story, and I'll kind of get into it towards um when I'm talking more about the the details of the satanic verses and why it was so offensive and just absolute monster of a fire that people are still trying to put out that will never be put out until Salman Rushdie has died, unfortunately. Yeah, as what it seems. I mean, it's been going on how long? Since 1989, when it happened.

Ed 13:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

It's a very long time.

Ed 13:44

So, how did how did how did all of this start then? Like where where did Rushdie get his background from? How did he go down this path of writing unnecessarily offensive books that weren't offensive?

SPEAKER_01 13:58

So, a little bit of background, and I I do think it's important to understand his background because he his culture, his parents were Muslim, you know what I mean? And he he was born in Bombay, India, or Mumbai, and he was his father was pretty successful. He was he was a Cambridge graduate and he became a lawyer, and then after that he became kind of like a businessman, and he yeah, he did pretty well for himself. And um, Salman Rushdie actually has this, he's on this radio show on the BBC, and it's called the Desert Island Discs, and it's actually really, really, really cool. And I mean, there's plenty of people on there, you know, there's lots of David Bowie, Kat Stevens, I mean, so many people, and it's really cool to really hear from them. Uh and it's about music. So, anyways, he says, and and this was really funny to me, but he he says, and this is about his father, he he was more or excuse me, he was quite successful, but he spent most of his life becoming more unsuccessful, and he kind of chuckled at it, you know, and so that kind of kind of gives you an eye on what kind of person his dad was, I guess. But nonetheless, I mean, he grew up with kind of a cushion. He, you know, he lived on the ocean side, he attended what would be kind of like a private school in the US, but a public school in in um the UK, which he was sent to when he was 13, which was kind of his choice. His parents kind of gave him that that that choice, which was really interesting, and he was really excited to do that. And so he kind of jumped on the opportunity. Now, um, when it comes to his Muslim bac his Muslim background, he did not go to mosque. Um, he would maybe go once a year, and that would be, you know, for Eid. You know what I mean? That and so it it wasn't something that his parents were pretty, I would say, like liberal Muslims, you know. They they didn't consistently attend. It wasn't something that they dedicated their life to, but they did have that belief in their background.

Ed 16:06

So For our Christian listeners, they they may have heard this term in in the Christian scene. There's a thing or a phenomenon or a type of person called a creaster. Meaning they show up for church for Christmas and they show up for church on Easter, and that's it. And so they're called creasers, and it sounds like that's pretty much what, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

Yeah, that sounds like the the kind of philosophy.

Ed 16:32

Yeah, that that sounds like the philosophy that that the Rushdie family had.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

Yeah, and you know, I kind of grew up like that too, you know. My my my background was Christian. I kind of went to church, but it wasn't a consistent thing, you know, and I don't find anything wrong with that. It's hard. It's hard to dedicate your life that much when you've got a lot going on. Now, Salman Rushdie, he did go to um a school in England, and it was the Rugby School in Warwickshire, and he did not like it. He had a really hard time there. Mind you, this is, I mean, the 70s, 80s, and England was a very hard time to be brown, and there was so much, it was very heavily racist at the time. And so he made this quote in the Desert Island disc, which I thought was spot on. He said that he was kind of the triple whammy where he was brown, bad at games or sports, good at studies. And he was like, I had the triple whammy of targets, you know. And that's sad, you know, that's kind of that's awful to think about because who doesn't want to be smart?

Ed 17:44

Uh well, well, I find it fascinating because like England at that time, they treated Middle Easterners this uh I don't want to say they treated, but Middle Easterners were treated in a lot of respects the same way that African Americans are treated very much so in America, and it took a lot of work to to overcome that to the point where when I was a kid, when I was like 12, 13 years old, my mom and I we would watch the Mr. Bean show on Channel 8, and there were certain skits that they had in there where they had a Middle Eastern character speaking in a thick British accent, and I was blown away by it. I was absolutely like, wait, I I didn't know people from the Middle East had a British accent. Oh yeah, and then my mom was like, Yeah, much of the world doesn't know that African Americans can have an American accent at the same time, and it was one of those moments where like my world that perspective, yeah. My my world went from this to like this, yeah. It was uh it it was it was wild. In a sense, something that I think most Americans fully understand is the race issues during that time.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

I don't think so either, and I think that it's hard for some people. I don't I and I don't know if it's like an American thing. I mean, I'm an American, so this is what I see, but I feel like some people forget that there are other other races that get treated just like minorities here, if not worse. This is not something that's new. This isn't just happening in America, and I think that people kind of forget that. And I don't know, I think that it's really important to spread the fact that there are there's other think about the Irish.

Ed 19:41

Oh, yeah. Early 1900s, Irish coming over, yeah.

Kara 19:47

That was that was the Irish in the early 1900s and the Japanese communities right after World War II.

Ed 19:54

Or or the the Chinese coming over after the Irish came over were were treated just as badly, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

Yeah, and pe I think people forget that. And I think because racism in America is so African American driven, yeah, it's it's it's something that is more prominent with African Americans, at least in the spotlight, which is there's so much. I don't I could go on, but anyhow.

Ed 20:22

Oh, good.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

Um but I yeah, I just think that it's really important for people to remember that we only see a small part of the world, and you can't forget that there's there's so much than what has even happened in the last hundred years, you know. So I don't know. I'm I probably sound like a hippie right now, and that's totally fine. But spread peace, love, and stuff.

Ed 20:48

Ultimately, racism sucks. Sucks. Racism is for losers, acceptance is for cool people. So stop sucking and start being cool.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

Yep. Like it. I yep, exactly. And so, yeah, just I mean, imagine being a black man, you know. I know you guys are not black men, but imagine being a black man who's sitting at a table of white men, you know. This is a prominent, this is a very elitist white school that Rushdie went to when he was younger, and it made a really bad taste in his mouth, and he wanted to leave England.

Ed 21:28

I guess we now know how Barack Obama felt for eight years.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

I I care. I am so deeply in the middle that I just don't understand. Like, why do what does this have to do with politics?

Ed 21:43

I uh no, I I I I had an African American student one time, like he he sprinkled a whole bunch of salt on on a on a on a white piece of paper, and then he put like one little speck of pepper in the middle of it, and he's like, this was Obama's. Inauguration. Yeah, I mean. And I'm like, wow. And I know he was trying to make a joke. But then when I go back and look at the footage of it, I'm like, he ain't wrong. He's not wrong. And and I do know that Barack Obama, in his first two weeks of being president of his first term, he received more death threats than President Bush did his entire eight years prior.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

Scary.

Ed 22:32

And it just was like, why is this still a thing? What why are we doing this?

SPEAKER_01 22:39

And yeah.

Ed 22:41

Yeah, it's in it's infuriating. And Rushdie was right in the middle of it, just in British form.

SPEAKER_01 22:48

Absolutely. You know, and and later on, um, when he's becoming a writer, and he, you know, he's after Mid Midnight's Children when he uh starts to get some of that fame. There is that was the book that kind of catapulted him, right?

Ed 23:03

It was Midnight Children was the thing that kind of put him on the map.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, that was his first big seller. That was his second novel, but it was his big one. And so there was a a statement said that Rushdie was the brown guy sitting at a table full of white men. You know what I mean? And that's kind of where I brought in that that black men sitting at an all-white table, it's the same thing, but in a different place, you know? And and so, yeah, I mean, he he he had a really hard time. He went, he um, he actually left, and his parents pretty much forced him to go back. They're like, no, no, no, no, no. You are no Westerner. Yeah, like you're this is You are going back, you're going to Cambridge.

Ed 23:50

So that Podunk little community college campus that is Cambridge that is just for poor people.

SPEAKER_01 24:02

And sorry, buddy. Gotta go with the the less fortunate.

Ed 24:07

Yeah, yeah. You gotta go to this this podunk crap school and you're gonna like it. And it's like one of the top three universities in the world.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

I know. And you know, it's obviously like you have those cultures or those family structures where the you know you follow in the father's footsteps. You go to the same school because he went to that school, and it's that legacy, you know, that continues that tradition. So you went back to Cambridge, and he actually, this is where he started to really like England because he did okay, you know, he did all right in at Cambridge. He didn't have a hard time, he had some friends, you know, he made some good friends, and and at this point, he's kind of trying to figure out what he's gonna do with himself, right? So obviously he's a writer, he's an author, and that's what he wanted to do. He did need a little bit of a backup plan, and his backup plan was acting, and he didn't know how far it would go, but he kind of gave it a try, and he ended up actually being on the comedy comedy stage footlights at Cambridge, which is big. Okay, it's the it's it's the place to be. Um, I guess I'm an American, I've never been there. I don't know, I'll never see it. But that's the place you want to get get to. So that I, you know, that was really cool, but nothing, I mean, nothing really came from it. Um, and then he graduated in 1968, and he actually moved back to um, he moved to Pakistan, and the reason why is because his family moved there. And I want to take a moment and think about the the reasons, you know, and so kind of the timeline of his life. He was born the year of India's independence, and then you have the Indian partition, which mass migration. I and I kind of want to fact-check myself, but I'm I'm I'm pretty sure this is like one of the largest migrations in history. And um, someone fact-check me, please, because I really want to know if I'm correct, because I'm always right. Um button.

Ed 26:17

Well, you you bring up uh you bring up an interesting thing here. So because he was born in India, educated in ultra low-end, forgettable college of Cambridge. Which yeah, which you know, a certain author like J.R. Tolkien may have visited from time to time, and but I mean Tolkien didn't amount to anything. Um, and then he would so he moved to Pakistan, yeah, and and so the reason why, and and like I said, kind of think about it, so his family was Muslim, and a big part of this partition was where are the Muslims and where are the Hindus, you know, and so his family ended up moving over to Pakistan because because India and Pakistan did not see eye to eye to the point where Pakistan was divided into two, and I think they still like in the mountain ranges, they still trade shots between each other with cannons, like they're they're not close at all.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

I don't think so. Doesn't seem that I don't think so.

Kara 27:28

Also, you are right, according to the New York Times and something like that. The partition I love being close, something that caused the one of the biggest migrations in world history.

Ed 27:39

That that would really make sense. That that because I know like the northern half of India, because when we taught academic decathlon years ago, uh there was a one theme was India, and it was ever if we had to focus on India from like you know a thousand BCE all the way up to the present, and there was the whole northern and eastern part of India was a huge mix between Sikhs and and Hindus and Muslims, but then it wasn't until like the late 1900s that we see this massive pull-out, and like India and Pakistan still have a tough time trying to work things out to the point where there are parts of Pakistan where they have these call centers that will replicate the accent of an Indian man and say that, oh, I'm going to jail, I need you, cousin, to help bail me out, give me $10,000 and I can get out of it. It's called pig butchering. And then India is doing the same thing to folks in Pakistan, where they're basically social engineering each other to try to like like get money out of each other. It's interesting. Yeah, yeah. There uh there's a podcast out there that follow uh Darknet Diaries. I'll send it to you. He has a whole episode on it, and it is amazing how like politics from the 1950s and 60s is making its way into the 2020s, and how the two countries are just battling each other.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

It it's so scary, it's so crazy to me. How can you I can't be mad for more than like a day?

Ed 29:39

I've I'm I'm a white. I'm I'm I'm a white fat man, and I have been called all sorts of things, and I've never been hurt, I've never had anybody like make a joke about my physical appearance or my religious beliefs or my political beliefs, and I've never been like okay, deeply, deeply hurt. Yeah, and it's funny because they're probably true half the time, and it's just like cool, it's fine. It it my identity is not attached to a single idea. Yeah, my identity is attached to what I do for a living, this little podcast that we have, my wife, my children, my writing, like uh my if I if I were to look at my political beliefs, my religious beliefs, all the stuff that we would never ever want to dive into in this podcast, that's like three percent of who I am.

SPEAKER_02 30:41

Yeah.

Ed 30:42

And it is just yeah, to me, it's just it's just fascinating how Rushdie was involved in such a time of change.

SPEAKER_01 30:52

Oh, yeah. I mean, huge time from the start of his life, you know what I mean? It was like he was meant to do this almost, like he was born to to deeply offend someone and the people that that wasn't his goal.

Ed 31:10

That's the thing that blows my mind. Is that he was like, I I'm Muslim, I grew up in a in a Hindu community, I lived in a Christian nation. Like I legitimately have no qualms against anybody.

Kara 31:28

And that's I think we're jumping the gun though, because I don't know anything about this, and and you're you're making me a little bit laugh. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Ed 31:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:40

Okay, so let's go, let's backtrack. Let's go back. Yeah, we're we're in part two. Let's go back to part one. No, we're not not we're not that far off. We're getting there. We're pretty close. We just gotta hit some spats. So um he moved back because his parents moved, or excuse me, his parents moved to Pakistan because they were Muslim, and that's where they needed to go. That's where they wanted to go. So he that's why he ended up in Pakistan. Then he moved back to the UK and he tried acting professionally, which did not do very well whatsoever. And so he ended up kind of dabbling in advertisement with a company, and I'm gonna try really hard to say this word, and I've tried think I've practiced this a couple times. Do you want to give it a go, Kara?

Kara 32:24

Sure. I've I've tried conclusions. I'll try this. All right, here we go. Uh Ogilvy and Mather.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

There you go. I don't know why I can't say that.

Ed 32:35

Uh again, I'm I'm looking at the the notes and I'm trying to find it. It is uh oh, Ogilvy Mather. Ogilvy and Mather. Yeah, that was yeah, that that was like a uh that was like England's largest um like marketing and and advertising firm. In fact, there was a lot of commercials from the 70s and 80s to this day that tie back to Ogilv Mather.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

Well, there's a you know, this is kind of um a really cool fact about Salman Rushdie is he ended up working there as a copywriter and he did really well. And he actually came up with some really famous taglines that we still use even in other ways. And one of them is um Naughty But Nice for I can't remember it's a UK um like a cream cake brand, but it's Naughty But Nice Cream Cakes, which we kind of hear that a lot. Um, and then he also is um responsible for creating the That'll Do Nicely for American Express, which that's pretty, I don't know. I thought that was pretty cool. So he did pretty good there in advertisement, but that's just not his calling, right? His calling is being a writer. So um this is where we get introduced to more of his writing. Um, Salman's first novel was released in 1975, and this was Grimace. And um he's very much his his style of writing is very much miss, like I would say, mystical realism, where you kind of don't have the clearest idea, you don't know what's happening in a sense where what's real, what's not sometimes you know, it can be a little bit confusing.

Ed 34:20

Have you or the audience read any of like Neil Gaiman's books like American gods or Norse mythology or anything? Neil, yeah, I I I freaking love Neil Gaiman because I feel like he looked at Rushdie and he's like, that's what I want to be. And if you ever read the book American Gods, the idea is that America, America's belief structures were the things that fueled the gods that lived. For example, there was like 37 different types of Jesus out there because there was 30 different types of Christian religions out there, and it was all tied to America's beliefs. But the problem was is that like you were meeting characters that were gods, that were humans, but you had no idea that they were gods, and the mysticism of reality was blended into human reality, and there are so many parts in that book where like some mysterious thing takes place, like the main character calls in a blizzard, and he's not even aware that he's doing it, and you're not even aware that a blizzard is happening. He's just a guy concentrating on this abstract idea of like, oh, this guy's telling me to make a blizzard. I'm just gonna think about a blizzard, and then all of a sudden there's a blizzard.

SPEAKER_01 35:48

There's a blizzard, yeah.

Ed 35:50

That that's mystical, that that's like mysticism slash mystical realism, where you don't know what is supernatural versus what is natural versus that character's involvement, right?

SPEAKER_01 36:05

A thought, or if we're in a dream, a dream real, you know, real time. And and that was definitely his thing, you know. All of his books are very much they're very fiction, yes, very much.

Ed 36:18

You gotta you have to take it like line by line. You've got to go through and reread some paragraphs and be like, what did I just read?

SPEAKER_01 36:27

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm gonna attempt to read the satanic verses. We kind of talked about this, but I would like to attempt attempt to read it. I heard it's a very challenging book to really grasp because there's so much. And again, it's it's it's that mystical realism where you just have no idea what the heck is going on.

Ed 36:47

I actually I just got paid, so I'm I'm actually I got the book downloaded and I'm gonna start analyzing it on my Kindle. But click and um yeah, the well, the big Kindle, not my not my not not my cell phone, but I I'm I'm actually gonna tonight I'm gonna start reading it uh because I do know that there's a character, uh Archangel, Archangel Gabriel.

SPEAKER_01 37:11

Yes, and we'll get there. We'll get there. And yeah, yeah.

Ed 37:14

Kara knows Kara knows a Gabriel, and that angel is actually the guy that hunts down demons and destroys them.

Kara 37:22

That's my husband. Woo! Gabe.

Ed 37:28

Gabe. And I meant I met Gabe. He's uh if I was a demon, he would probably rip my my head out through my legs. So I I wanna I would never want to get this guy mad at me. Although I feel like it would be very hard to do that.

SPEAKER_01 37:50

So these children, 1981.

Ed 37:54

Kara's like, this is not my husband. Like, how are you drawing this?

Kara 37:59

Like, how do I correct this?

SPEAKER_01 38:02

Like, there's so much to talk about there.

Ed 38:05

Uh so I plan on reading I'm reading the book.

SPEAKER_01 38:10

Yes, and we'll definitely talk about it often because I I don't know, this is all so fascinating to me. But so Salman started writing, and his first book was Grimace, and like I said, it was kind of that uh mystical realism. Um, it did horribly. No one cared for it, it was very ignored. So, are you gonna cry about it or are we gonna try again? We're gonna try again. So in 1981, he came out with Midnight's Children, and this is a fictional novel about two children specifically who are born at midnight or within the first hour, and the first hour of India's independence, of India's independence, yes.

Ed 38:55

That's where I got it mixed up. That I I I okay, yeah, that's where I got all that mixed up because that that first hour is called a tryst with destiny, and there was a lot of stuff written at that time about that first hour of how does India survive knowing that they've been under the rule of another country for hundreds of years.

SPEAKER_01 39:24

Right, right. That's something that was really um, this book meant a lot, actually. This is the book that really threw him out into the spotlight. This is really what catapult his career. He this was a very, very heavily awarded book where I don't even, I could not find a total of how many awards Zelman Rushdie had in general, but he this did really well. And um, this actually kind of made him into what seemed as like a hero kind of in the Muslim community. It really did actually unite them in a sense, where um this is something that is something that they're relating to, even in the time that he was alive, you know.

Ed 40:12

So well, and it's I think he he won the Booker Award once and then and then like a year or two later he won it again for the same book, and then it was voted, like after a a a number of years, I don't know how many years it was of like nominating these books, it was then voted out of this collection of years of books, yeah, as like the best booker award-winning book, which that means I'm downloading that too.

SPEAKER_01 40:45

It and this one actually it it kind of interests me a little bit more than St. Anniversum, being honest. But yeah, um nonetheless, it it does sound like an amazing book. I mean, it goes for show how many awards he's won. The fact that he kind of won the Booker Prize twice, uh, or prize twice, and it it did so good. It was really good. And like I said, it resonated a lot with Muslims, and it was something that they really, really were proud of him for. This is where he kind of started to be cool, and girls started to kind of like him, and you know, he's getting some money and whatnot. And if if you know anything, if you if the if there's one thing you take away from this episode, the podcast and anything in this world, if there's one thing you take, Salman Rushdie was playing devil's advocate his entire life. Yeah, he loved and he says this thing art is made at the or like at the edge, or something of that nature. Like, and and so it he lived by it, you know, he really did, and he's really living on the edge now, I'll tell you what.

Ed 41:59

One thing I want to point out about somebody like Rushdie or Eldus Huxley or Orson Wells or any of these famous authors that have written a book uh that sets them apart from everybody else. And this is something that I learned in college, and this is something that I've been trying to instill on our students is that the only way you get this good, the only way you become an F. Scott Fitzgerald or or an Ernest Hemingway or Steinbeck or whatever, Isaac Asimov, you have to read and study everything that came before you. And every one of these authors, whether it's Edgar Allan Poe or Emily Dickinson or Walt Whitman or Henry David Thoreau, like I don't care who you look at, they were all prolific readers, and they studied everything from art and history and literature, and they studied other countries' literature and art and history, and this is exactly what Rushdie did. And so, like, when I kind of briefly read up on this guy, I'm just like, how did he find time to write a freaking book?

SPEAKER_01 43:17

How did he do and read? Yeah, like we do all of this.

Ed 43:21

Yeah, how do you manage your time? Like, I'm trying to write a book, and I'm lucky if I get three sentences down a day.

SPEAKER_01 43:27

And you know what's so funny? And and I have listened to, I don't know what it is about Salon Rushdie, and just listening to him talk is very he's an intellectual, he's very smart. And he know like when he is talking about something, he he knows what he's talking about. And and so listening to this desert island island disc, he talks about he talks a lot about his place in politics. You know, he was really deeply in politics. Um he actually talks about um Margaret Thatcher a little bit, which we'll get there.

Ed 44:07

We'll get there.

unknown 44:08

We'll get there.

Ed 44:09

I think he made a quote one time, and and and again, the I'm I'm paraphrasing here, but it's like there's if you have a swimming pool with hot and cold water in it, he's just swimming in it. He's not choosing necessarily a side. If that if the hot and cold were the left and the right of politics, he's swimming in it and he's exploring all of it. And I think he's more analyzing than being critical.

SPEAKER_01 44:40

And I I agree to an extent. He actually was a big advocate, and I would say, depending on how you look at things, um, and and he was in the middle, but I also think he was also kind of on the left for a little bit.

Ed 44:54

Um yeah, I could definitely see that.

SPEAKER_01 44:56

For sure, you know, and and so but he was on the left to the point where he could talk to somebody on the right and work with yeah, you know, it wasn't something now, depending on who it is, I wouldn't have him go talk to Aitel Khamini whatsoever. Um but we'll get there. We'll I'll tell you why. Yeah. Um he was, you know, he he was very accepting of other people's opinions, I will say. Yes. Now, who wasn't very accepting of something that was in Midnight's children was Mrs. Indira Gandhi. And she was pretty pissed off at him, actually. He and I don't, I haven't read it, and so when I finally read it, I will point it out maybe. Um, be like, oh yeah, this is what she was upset about. So she was essentially upset for one line, and she actually sued Rushdie um because of this line. And um, she sued him for libel, which I I'm here, you know, I'm just looking from the outside in, and it's it, you know, it goes back into the freedom of speech, you know, and I really want to find what it is, and maybe it's just me being lazy and I just didn't look too deeply into it.

Ed 46:12

But so well, what it was is that he was comparing her to like a very negative character. It would be like um we compare, say, some president of the United States of America to Sauron from Lord of the Rings. Or we compare some politician to the physical embodiment of Satan, and and he kinda he he when he d devised this character, you could read it and be like, oh, this is exactly who he's thinking of, even though he doesn't call her out by name, and that's why she was really upset because everybody was looking at this character that he had kind of like, wow, this is this crazy chick, and I used to like her, but now she's crazy. Hence that that's kind of her hence the libel part, and then I and I I can kind of see it, even though it didn't affect her all that much.

SPEAKER_01 47:17

Do you want to hear something that's kind of funny? Yeah, so there was um an occasion where Margaret Thatcher actually invited a Salmon Rushdie to a it was like a festival of some kind um back in the 80s, and Mrs. Gandhi was going, but Salman Rushdie actually declined. And so there's a part in Desert U Islandist where he he talks about this situation where he he didn't go to the to the um to the dinner and he's being interviewed, and I don't remember who he was talking about directly and or talking to directly in the conversation, but he declined it, and she goes, How do you feel about you know Mrs. Gandhi's you know opinion on XYZ? And he goes, Well, I was supposed to have dinner with her the other night.

unknown 48:04

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 48:05

It's just like, oh, Salman. Okay.

Ed 48:11

Um Yeah, I feel like there's there's there's some events, and and I think any anybody on on this podcast can admit there were times where we walked into a super awkward situation that was 100% our own doing.

SPEAKER_01 48:30

Me going into class every day.

Ed 48:33

Yeah, Kara's like, no, I I'm pretty good. Like Kara's really good about not saying something stupid to get yourself in trouble, but I I'm a master at it, and I'm like a Jedi knight of walking into awkward situations that I've I've created.

SPEAKER_01 48:50

No, I hate it.

Ed 48:53

I hate it, but yeah, like, and I feel like that's one of those cases where like if you were to talk to Rushdie now, he'd be like, Yeah. Probably could have worded that a little differently, but it's okay. I still have I still have another working eye. It's fine.

SPEAKER_01 49:09

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, he had both of his eyes at the time, so yes.

SPEAKER_02 49:13

Uh we'll get there.

SPEAKER_01 49:15

We'll get there. It's coming. So yeah, I don't know. I I think that this that's interesting, you know. Words, once again, can get you sued. Yeah. Which we have so much history on people being just annihilated for their words.

Ed 49:35

Yeah, even spoken words.

SPEAKER_01 49:37

Spoken words, unspoken words. Doesn't it? Words are interesting.

Ed 49:43

So you say one innocuous thing and then suddenly you get endorsed by the KKK, and your reputation is blown to crap after that. Right.

SPEAKER_01 49:52

Right.

Ed 49:53

And not that that's happened to me, but I know somebody else that's happened to. I'm you're just here. Yeah. I've never said anything that's been endorsed by the KKK. I want to make that very clear. I just know a guy who knows a guy who said a thing and it didn't work out well for him.

SPEAKER_01 50:09

Now, I do another thing that I want to add in here because I don't really feel like people should just go and say stuff. You know what I mean? Like you, there is a level of respect, a letter of a level of consideration that you have to you have to show.

SPEAKER_02 50:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:23

You know, and that doesn't mean that you can just go call people all these absurd names and make people feel like crap. That's abuse and that's toxic. So words get you places.

Ed 50:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:38

Salman also wrote a um a book called Shame, and this was in 1983, portraying a political upset in Pakistan based on some characters. Now he had another book, didn't really go too far, and that was in 1987. 1980. Before we get to 88.

Kara 51:00

For the people in the back like me who are just following along. Rushdie was born on the independence of India. Yeah, that one. The year.

Ed 51:10

Yep. 1947.

Kara 51:12

And then he goes to school in England where he was bullied because racism sucks. He tries to go home, his parents sent him back. He goes, then his family moves to Pakistan because of the migration period after the partition. And then he goes back to England, right? Still at Cambridge. Um, he's writing, he's acting, and he's writing more, and he's starting to publish, and he's starting to hang out with famous people because of this book called Midnight Children, right?

SPEAKER_01 51:41

Okay. Yes, you're doing it. Great.

Kara 51:44

I also just wanted to summarize for any other listeners who are listening along, like what is going on. I appreciate it.

Ed 51:52

I appreciate it. That's that's what we needed. And and don't forget, I think by the 80s he was also in America, too.

SPEAKER_01 51:58

Yeah.

Ed 51:59

I think he was he was visiting like New York and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 52:03

Well, for yeah, absolutely. He was definitely traveling for sure. Um, but his main home is all is kind of been England, uh, depending on how you look at things. We'll get there. So uh to kind of wrap up the book journey as far as when things start to kind of turn. So in 1988, Salman Rushdie released a novel, and this was his most controversial piece of work, on September 26, 1988. And I don't want to say he regrets it, because I do not believe he would take it back. Maybe do things a little bit differently, maybe.

Ed 52:46

Would you say this is his masterwork? Like this is the thing that he will always be known for.

SPEAKER_01 52:52

Yes. This is this is like his legacy, if you will. This is this is something that will probably go down to his children and his children's children, and his children's children are gonna be like, yeah, my grandfather was the guy who got his eye completely enabled because he wrote a book.

Ed 53:14

Well, and his mom. Or disabled. His mom received some criticism for it. Okay, we'll get there to the extent. We'll get there. That's that's part 15. We'll get there.

SPEAKER_01 53:25

Yep, that's part 67.

Ed 53:27

Um, so thank you, Care, for being the moderator and keeping us on track.

SPEAKER_01 53:34

Yes, thank you, because we both are chatty cathys and a half um each. Yes. So, like, yes, I would say this kind of his masterwork. This is something that will go down with him to the end of his day, literally. There is no proper way to summarize this, and we are hitting an hour, so I'm gonna do my best.

Ed 53:55

We're fine. We we still have time for like six more hours, so we're we're good to go. I wish we had a video podcast because Kara's look was just absolute disgusting.

SPEAKER_01 54:15

You are disgusting. Don't say that. I'm leaving. What did I get myself into?

Ed 54:19

I'm gonna go make a cup of rest of the No, you're fine. 30 minutes. I I you you got this. I got this. Yeah, you got this. You got this. I'm I'm not worried. No, it's fine.

SPEAKER_01 54:32

Uh good.

Ed 54:33

Anyway, so thank you.

SPEAKER_01 54:37

Um no, thank you. Um so just shortish summary that I can give, kind of, on the satanic verses. Now, this is not something I have read. I'm going to do it the best justice that I absolutely can, but I will not hit every single key point. It's impossible unless you want me to actually read it to you. Read it. So once upon a time, do it, do it in Zob. Once upon a time and run far, far away on it. This is how it goes. So this novel is based on two character characters, and this is, and I'm gonna try to say this last name. I've heard it so many times, and it just doesn't stick. But um, it's the two characters are Gabriel, um, Farishta. Does that sound good? And Saladin Chamcha. And these are two Indian Muslim actors. Gabriel is a Bollywood superstar who specializes in role roles depicting Hindu uh deities. And Saladin is an immigrant who wanted to kind of shed his Indian background, which makes me frustrated, which kind of is the part of the book, and um wanted to kind of become a voice actor in England.

Ed 56:02

In the beginning, I uh known Rushdie, there's a reason for that.

SPEAKER_01 56:06

It well, exactly, and that's kind of where you're like, okay, I really think that's a sad concept to grasp, but there's definitely a meaning for that.

Ed 56:13

That's like that's like a subplot. He he purposely put that in there. Yeah, he he purposely put that in there because anybody who would have been born and raised in that area would be like, oh, yeah, I I I totally understand where Saladine is coming from. I I get it. Meanwhile, people like us are like, cool, a voiceover actor in England, let's go.

SPEAKER_01 56:35

Right. Let's do this. So in the beginning of the book, both of them are stuck in a plane um that is taken over. Now, this plane is flying from India to Britain, and the plane explodes, and the two are kind of falling, and they are oh, so magically saved. And this saving grace was Gabriel was trend uh kind of transferred into the archangel uh Gabriel, and um he has various dreams.

Ed 57:10

Now, Saladin being the devil growing horns and goat legs with cloven hooves, which is a Christian, very, very Christian interpretation of the devil, not a Muslim version of a devil.

SPEAKER_01 57:27

See what we're doing here? Let's continue.

Ed 57:30

Yes. Who cares? It's like oh, it's too late for this.

SPEAKER_01 57:36

It's like, wait, what did I actually get myself into? Can we no, we're fine, we're fine. I'm just listening.

Kara 57:41

I'm being a good listener. Continue.

SPEAKER_01 57:43

You are being a gr now, the other one over there will work on it. Um this is a hard book to summarize, like I've said, and it's really, really hard to analyze. So But you're doing great. Thank you. This is this is intense. Yeah. I'm trying to like articulate my thoughts while looking at my notes to remind myself what my thoughts should be of. So bear with me. Now it yeah, it's um it's a very multi-layered plot. Like I said, it's miss, it's that mystical realism where you just don't really get it. We're gonna talk about some key points. Okay, and in my notes, I would say, uh, or we would miss next week's class, which we don't have now. So um you're like, that's fine. No problem. The let's talk about the name of the this story, the satanic verses, okay. This this name is already a problem. It's already a problem. And the reason why it is a problem is because of the there is a part of the story of the Prophet of Muhammad where he it is said that you can be uh poly, what is it, polytheistic? You can have multiple, like up to three deities or three gods that you can look up to, right? And that was actually not it was taken back, and so it was kind of said to be like induced by the devil. That was the devil's words. And this story in itself came off and is kind of referred to and deemed untrue, and is very offensive, actually, because it can kind of be a smear. Yeah, it's basically saying that Muhammad was taking advice from a devil, and it wasn't his own words, yeah, it wasn't a verbatim story, and that is something that is so so serious, so serious in Islam, and it is one of the biggest parts of their belief. This is the story, this is the word, this is the word from the prophet of Muhammad and no one else and everyone. And yes, Kara, do you have a question or are you just really excited?

Ed 1:00:11

Got it. I I think the best way to equate it for like the Western folks out there is let's say we all know like the Bill of Rights, we know the Constitution, we know our rights, we know, we know it's been written down, it's been signed, it that this is this is locked into the American zeitgeist of what rights Americans have, and then suddenly we find out that apparently none of that is true, and that there's like another document out there that states that everything that we had adhered to in our Bill of Rights is completely false. That is in a Muslim culture, Muslim society, especially very conservative societies, say like in Iran, that law that they adhere to in their government is the same law in truth that stems from their spiritual texts. And to criticize that would be to like couldn't like it would be like criticizing our Bill of Rights in America and saying that it it came from England.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:26

It's a bunch of mumbo jumbo from England.

Ed 1:01:29

Yeah, or it's falsified or whatever. Uh obviously, I don't think Americans would take it that seriously, but if you are born and raised in a culture where that is where where your religious beliefs and the law of the land is tied together, I can see why people would be a little upset.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:49

Well, think of deep-rooted Christianity, you know, some of those more serious very, you know, FLDS, you know. There's some serious religions that are very, this is the right way. You cannot tell me the other way. There is no way I'm going to think otherwise. There's just no possible way. This is my life, this is what I live by. I don't really see a problem with that until it gets dangerous.

Ed 1:02:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:24

That's the thing, is I think what, and we'll we'll kind of get into it more, but what I think is important to remember is that if someone isn't hurting you, why do you care?

Ed 1:02:36

Yeah. Well, and and only point that I was trying to make is that like this concept of writing an alternate historical narrative, to many Westerners, be like, okay, that'd be a fun read. Hence, yeah, Paradise Lost, John Milton, the story of Adam and Eve told from Satan's perspective. Like, like to us, this isn't a big deal, but I can see why to other cultures this would be a huge attack.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:07

Serious offense, yeah.

Ed 1:03:08

A serious offense. And and I'm okay with them feeling that way until you start putting hits out on somebody's life and contracts to murder them and stuff like that. Then that's like, okay, guys, it's a book.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:24

When things start to resort to violence, that's where we are doing something very, very, very wrong, and we need to do some self-reflection and go to therapy. Go to gratitude journal. Please. So um, going back to the satanic verses, this book was consistently questioning Islam, constant, constant, constant, constant. And um, that point right there is kind of simple. If you are so deeply rooted into this belief, questioning my belief is absolutely a no-go. You will not, that's not gonna work.

Ed 1:04:00

It's against the law.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:01

In part five, no, this did piss a lot of people off. In part five, there is a girl claimed that she is getting divine messages from Allah. Um, and he is giving her direction to lead followers to Mecca through the Arabian Sea, and it'll part just like it did with others. Moses. Sorry, there's something real deep in there. Yeah, it's and um so this is sparking the long argument that Allah and the Christian God are the same. Yeah, not good. Moving on. This one hurt these next couple points really hurt me to talk about. And it's not because I have any particular belief, I just don't want to say it. It just makes me uncomfortable because I know the thing, the thing, and this is the thing, devil's advocate salmon Rushdie. He he was brought up in the culture to know that this is so wrong, and so it is a huge like betrayal in the eyes of someone who is so deeply rooted into this belief. It's such a deep betrayal because of the fact, like you look at it and you know that you that's so bad. Anyways, moving on. So here's the painful part. Let me just get it over with. There is a character named Mahound. As the reader, you were following Mohound through his life, basically a rewrite of the life of the Muslim prophet Muhammad. And Mahound is a name that was used by the Christian crusaders to defame Mohammed, so it is not a good name to use.

Ed 1:05:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:50

My body hurts, my spine is stiff.

Ed 1:05:55

Not not uh optically, it's probably not the best way to go.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:00

Not a good, not a not a good choice. Not a good choice. Nope.

Ed 1:06:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:05

Let's make safe choices everyone.

Ed 1:06:08

Respectful choices.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:09

Please. Safe. Let's say safe too.

Ed 1:06:13

Yeah. Good point. Let's preface that first.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:17

Let's keep going. Um, so yeah, he's he's being pretty provocative now. The satanic versus part. This is where things really these this is where things really start to get very uncomfortable. Gabriel, the angel, gets messages in his dreams from a hound. Gabriel does not believe these messages. This question pervades the book. And it implies that the Quran is the narrative written by the devil. Which really pokes at the Islam or at Islam in its places of sensitivity. The Quran has many holes and contradictions that Rushdie likes to run with as fast as he can. Orthodox Muslims um believe that Muhammad was a real person. And it there's proof that he was a real person. I'm not gonna go into the stories because it's not something that I want to do, because it is not my faith. He had a lot of wives, but and and so some people kind of think that his story was more so he liked to have power and wives. Then that means that they are being led by someone who is not pre uh, what is it? What uh preaching, not preaching to the choir, practicing what they preach, uh preaching a proper gospel, practicing what they preach.

Ed 1:07:45

Um uh I I I I want to take a minute, I want to interject something in here.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:49

Yes, please.

Ed 1:07:50

Whenever we're we're dealing with a religion or analyzing a religion, regardless of what it is they believe in, it's always important to divide that uh initial leader's uh yeah you gotta take that human being and you have to separate it into two parts. You have to separate it into the worldly side of things, meaning this is a human being who is receiving a lot of divine stuff, but this is a human being that is having to live in a physical, you know, tangible world, but then this being is also having to live in the secular, the you know, they're they're having to live in the metaphysical side of things. So, like it a lot of times when whenever you throw a religious perspective into a piece of literature and you have a human being that we know existed, whether it's like Jesus or Muhammad or Buddha or whatever, it's very important to drive a dividing line in terms of like, okay, this guy will be will be talking about having a monogamous marriage or a faithful marriage or you know, following these sets of laws. Okay, that's on the secular side of things, but he's living in a world where it kind of says the opposite. And so, like a lot of times a religious leader that's starting something of this magnitude, they're kind of straddling the line, and we have to forego criticism because he's a human being trying to negotiate the world of God and the world of man. I don't know if that makes sense, but it's it's a critical literary theory where like if if you take one side or the other, that that religious founder is a hypocrite no matter what. But yet, human beings, there's millions and millions and actually, I think it's up towards like billions of people that adhere to Muhammad and Islam because they've accepted there's a dividing line, and that, hey, this guy's straddling two worlds, let him figure that out, and we will figure out what it is that he's teaching us, and we'll try to adhere to that philosophy. Kara's just like, God, I hate it when he does that.

Kara 1:10:28

Shut up, that's fine. I was thinking about when you talk about those things as a historian, you are as a historian, you are the most unbiased professional person.

Ed 1:10:39

Yes.

Kara 1:10:39

So what you look at when you look at a historical figure, uh, and if you look at one who is like a religious founder, you look at the culture that they're surrounded by, you look at what they believe in, and you look at the effects that that person had around them. And you look at when you're looking at what that person believed in, you look more at how it affected the culture around them. You don't really touch on whether or not their beliefs are true. You don't touch on whether or not you think those beliefs are true because you have to be unbiased. When you're looking at it from a historical perspective, you're always looking at archaeological evidence, you're looking at culture, you're looking at society. You're not necessarily looking at the religious beliefs of the thing that the person is preaching. Which is also important because that affects the culture. But culture.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:31

Well, I mean, for the children at school, um, for my kids, I mean, we're focusing heavily right now on the fundamental needs of humans. And culture and religion are so closely related, you know? And so I do try to remind my children that we all here don't have to have the same belief, but we we can talk about it, we can have respect for it, yep, we do not have to believe it, we do not have to live by it, agree with the ways, we don't have to live by it. But yeah, it's about looking at it from another perspective, saying, that's not how I was raised. I wasn't raised in that culture. You know what I mean? It's kind of like a child doesn't have the culture of understanding right from wrong until they are taught from right to wrong. They don't have that background, right? And especially as someone who isn't fully, as someone who's learning about it, as someone who's being told these being educated on whatever religion, whatever culture, I think it is important to go in and look at it as an unbiased person, whether you have your own faith or not, whether it goes against everything that is a part of your faith. If you want to understand and be educated fully, you have to put your own stuff behind you and really dissect it from a perspective where I have no opinion. I don't have a belief, I don't have an opinion, I just want to learn and understand it. And maybe you even make your mind, you're like, eh, I kind of I agree with that. You know, that's where that change, that's where that um you don't want to be stagnant.

Ed 1:13:08

That's where that growth comes in.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:10

Yeah, I mean, I don't want to be the same person I am in 10 years.

Ed 1:13:14

My uh my best man at my wedding was a he was Pakistani, he was a Muslim. I I knew him from high school. Money, be for listening. Shout out, bro. I love you. He uh we were working a late night shift at a retail store one time, and I always thought that uh his belief in Islam was like anti-Jesus. And I and I never brought it up, I never mentioned it. I just that's what I assumed is like, okay, yeah, he's believing in Muhammad, and Jesus is has nothing to do with it until one day I kind of brought it up. I'm like, like, he made some comment, a religious comment about Islam, and then I made a comment about like, like, yeah, I mean, this is a Jesus thing, but you wouldn't know anything about it. And he's like, actually, I do.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:06

He's like, what?

Ed 1:14:08

And he started citing off like a lot of scripture from from the New Testament, and I'm like, whoa, wait, I I I thought I thought Islam focused more on the old testament and kind of left off with the New Testament, and he's like, No, it it it the the sect of Islam that I follow, they believe in Jesus, they believe in Jesus as being a prophet of God, and his teachings are very valid, they just don't believe that he was a son of God, right? That's all like that is literally the only difference. And like I I I came across the guy that knew more about the teachings of Jesus more than I did, and and I'm a Christian, and that that and that's one of those those were one of those moments in my early 20s where like my horizons expanded. And and I feel like when we're talking about salmon rush dee, and we're talking about this time period in the 80s, and those boundaries became more and more restricted, where you could only have Islam on one side, you can only have Christianity on the other side, and there's no way that they can meet up in the middle. It it's physic uh you can't do it. It would be sacrilege to do it.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:28

Yeah.

Ed 1:15:29

So go people.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:31

Good stuff. Um then, then one more time, then the brothel.

Kara 1:15:39

Nice.

Ed 1:15:40

Oh, there's always a brothel.

Kara 1:15:43

I'm not gonna knock brothels. Oldest, oldest profession in world history. Yep, and I'm just saying historically speaking, it's it's a good conversation to have. That's all, I'll leave it there.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:55

Yeah, no, I'm sure. However, I'm uncomfortable because of what I have to say next. So a brothel, the brothel in this in this great book that had no offensive anything was called the curtain. The direct translation of the curtain is the veil or head scarf. In other words, calling the brothel the hijab.

unknown 1:16:23

Oh.

Kara 1:16:26

Oh, that's that's boy. Sure. That's not good. Wait, there's more.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:34

But it gets worse. And it's your turn to now face palm yourself many times. For two parts. The sex workers in the brothel were named after Muhammad's wives.

Kara 1:16:49

Mm-hmm. That's a bad deal. So choices were made.

Ed 1:16:54

Suddenly, my story of dumping detergent into the ocean doesn't sound so bad.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:01

We should have saved those size. Kara should have saved her size. I told you, I'm gonna have to find a power cleanser. Yes, you are.

Ed 1:17:09

Yeah. Tag, you're it.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:14

So, again, this is insinuating that Muhammad was making crap up along his way. Not good. This is how do you guys feel right now?

Ed 1:17:26

I mean, I I'm pretty sure I've said dumber things in my time.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:31

So I'm sure you have.

Ed 1:17:32

Uh yeah, you've known me since August. Like, I've already probably surpassed Rushdie and the dumb stuff that I've said. So I'm okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:42

You are very thankful. You need to be thankful that I am. Oh gosh, I don't even know. We'll talk about it later.

Ed 1:17:49

Um open-minded, not easily offended, not kind and understanding and just have I just like friends.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:01

Happy my friend. All right. So that being said, there were death threats. Things started to get really heated, and now I want to preface that this was before before the day of that fat.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:23

Five months. Let's see. Wait. Five months. No, I didn't count the months on my finger. I do it too, that's fine. Didn't happen. Like, no, I can teach. Wait, what?

Kara 1:18:37

A, B, C, D, E, S, G, T. Okay, yeah.

Ed 1:18:41

Eight. Eight months.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:45

This little uh not related whatsoever, but there's this part in Shrek where they're picking the wife and it's Fiona, and the guy goes, call number three, my lord, and he puts up the number two. I love it. So um this was yeah, this was five months before the fetois. It took a little bit of time. There were death threats. Salman was very pretty afraid for his life. Um, he really set a fire, shall we say? Um, mosques were hanging offensive pictures, um, or pages, excuse me, that were offensive towards them, obviously, on the walls. And they were sending it um to other mosques.

Ed 1:19:36

It basically turned into like in the world of John Wick, there was bounty put on Rushdie's head, and there was a certain amount of money that will go to anybody that would take him out.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:50

We'll get there. I really want to talk about it, but we'll get there.

Ed 1:19:55

Okay, I keep jumping ahead.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:57

I'm you are so eager, and I I'm so excited for you to get through this. So excited. I don't know anything about this topic, so I'm just trying to be along for the ride. So there was a Bradford protest, and now um at first things were pretty, you know, they were a little more peaceful. Um there were peaceful protests, um, letters written, then that stopped. And there is a protest, um, known as the Bradford protest, where they burnt, and this was the first satanic versus book, and this started to circle burn the book, burn the man was taken very seriously. We're still in '88. We are still in '88. Same year. Um, and so that being said, this kind of this book ended up really separating Muslims from those who did not agree with um the fact that people were outraged, and then those who were outraged, those were who were just like, I just want freedom of speech, everyone get along. Why can't we just all be happy? You know? Um, and I kind of this, and it's something that's very interesting, but this all the story kind of reminds me a lot of American politics. Um, which makes me kind of sad, you know. It's really hard for you to have a conversation just kind of like what we were talking about, you know, you're whether you're right or left, um, or in the middle, it's you you really can't have you can't please everyone. There's no way for everyone to just accept it. It's my way or the highway. And if you don't agree with me, well, you suck. You you're worthless. Your opinion means nothing. Yeah, you're like uh means nothing.

Ed 1:21:43

You're like Anakin Anakin Skywalker. If you're not with me, you're against me.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:47

And then kill all the babies, and then kill the younglings. Oh Padawans. Just straight up.

Ed 1:21:53

Well, he already did that prior, and then Obi-Wan is like, my allegiance is to the republic, to democracy. I I could quote that whole scene, but I'm not.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:03

I mean, it's a good reference.

unknown 1:22:06

Yeah.

Ed 1:22:06

Well, I mean, it it just goes to show polarization. Polarization is a very dangerous thing.

unknown 1:22:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:15

This is also a common thing in history, it just continuously repeats itself, and we just do not learn from it. That's why we're gonna be able to do that.

Ed 1:22:22

Yep, and any society that polarizes itself kind of falls apart. Yeah. That that's a growing trend.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:28

Like we've been going on forever. I want to move into Ayatala Khamini.

Ed 1:22:36

Oh, nice pronunciation.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:37

Yeah, very good.

Ed 1:22:38

Thank you. That sounded like you practice that, huh?

SPEAKER_01 1:22:40

I just want to be right.

unknown 1:22:42

That's fair.

Ed 1:22:43

I mean, well, I'm looking at as ayatollah meeting.

Kara 1:22:50

Oh, that's probably when somebody says portella. It really just portilla. It bothers you. Or Casilla. Oh no, don't do that. Casillus.

Ed 1:23:00

As I exit my trailer talking about how I'm gonna pronounce four names. Casillus and O-E-N.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:12

So watch your words. I get a Kimini. And I will say this: uh when I was in property management, I worked with a lot of international students, and I had a lot of Middle Eastern students um who went to ASU. And I had this, I had actually two residents who would constantly put in work orders. I was like, guys, I need to get something out of this. You're not tipping me. Like, I don't get paid for these work orders. I already rented to you. Help. Um and so basically every Sunday it seemed, they would come down, one of them, they would put in a work order, and I was like, okay, I want to learn a word. I want to learn one word in Arabic. And the only couple words that I remember is rawa, which is tracks.

Ed 1:24:02

I feel like that would be on your list of priority words to learn in a new word.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:08

Like Dante Eskawa. Um I and I'm trying to say that the right way. He he really made me work on it.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:22

But it's like a it's like a throat thing. Moose moose, it's like in the throat. I can't do it. Um, that means nosy.

Ed 1:24:35

I'm sure you guys can figure out why. I think he's trying to say you're a busybody.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:41

Well, I'm like, so what's the scoop? Can you tell me the scoop? What's going on after work? What's going on in the dark? Wow. So yeah, he would call me a missage. Um, and then there are a couple ones, but I will not repeat them because they're not good language words.

Kara 1:24:58

Not school appropriate.

unknown 1:25:00

Nope.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:01

Uh, not safe for work. Um fair enough. So that's why that's my background on my Arabic skills.

Ed 1:25:09

You learn how to say inappropriate in another language, and so now you're like a master of like phonetics.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:15

Expert. Here we are. Translate any day. Pay me first.

Ed 1:25:22

I'm gonna go to the UN. I'm gonna start translating everything for everybody. So, what could possibly go wrong?

SPEAKER_01 1:25:27

He said he's pretty pissed off. Oh my god, we need to fix that. Like, you really need to call him back.

Ed 1:25:35

Stop ghosting me. That's what he said. That's what I heard.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:43

Riz. He said that's Riz.

Ed 1:25:47

This ambassador has serious cap and drip going on.

Kara 1:25:51

Why is this guy important?

SPEAKER_01 1:25:53

He's important, as well as me. He was um an Iranian Islamic revolutionary, political figure, religious leader. He served he served as he ser guys, this is so important, and I really want a fator over my own head.

Ed 1:26:14

All right, trying to do it just I'm just dying because like Kara's like like hurting sheep with her blanket or what have you. Like the gift you sound like the guy is like putting all these cats in place, and that's that's Deja and I. We're like a bunch of cats wandering around.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:33

Ayat alakamine was an Iranian Islamic revolutionary, political figure, religious leader, and he served as Iran's first supreme leader following the secular monarchy. Muhammad help me, Kara Reza Pahlavi.

Kara 1:26:54

You do good.

Ed 1:26:54

Yeah, I would say it's Pahlavi.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:56

Pallavi, okay.

Ed 1:26:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:58

Um, who replaced his father, Riza Shah Pahlavi, who was forced into exile by Russia and the UK in 1941. Um this is sad, Muhammad launched um the white revolution. So basically, he wanted to westernize and urbanize Iran, which because we not that has gone well throughout history. It is going great to this day. So that being said, that was not something that people wanted. Um Ayatala Kimini was looked at as kind of the person who was trying to keep them separate from the West. They didn't want they didn't want that. They didn't they they're like, we don't want to we we just figured with like why can we not do this? Um I think so like isolationalists?

Ed 1:27:55

Like they like they wanted to be their own entity and then have Nothing to do with the outside world?

SPEAKER_01 1:28:01

It's yeah, I mean they're kind of there. If think about it.

Ed 1:28:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:06

Do you kind of categorize them with other places in the world?

Ed 1:28:09

I mean, I are very much their own places. The Iranian resorts are beautiful this time of year. If you could get to it. So, but this dates all the way back to 1941?

SPEAKER_01 1:28:20

Yeah, when that mar when that monarch could well, 1947 is when the Indian Revolution happened, you know?

Ed 1:28:27

So how yeah, I know I didn't I didn't know it was that old. That's that's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:32

And and it's sorry, I just smacked something. I don't know if you can, anyways. Um apologize to the microphone. So sorry, sweetie.

Ed 1:28:43

It won't care up. So we're we're good. Now she can corral us back in.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:48

Um, so yes, this is a this has been going on for quite some time. This entire fight has been going on for such a long time. That's why it's such an important story. Ayatala Khamini was really trying to keep them who they are, what they what the community has wanted. They don't want to be whitewashed, is what people would call that. Okay today's day and age. Um, the community really liked that. People really like that, and um that's fine. You know, it's if that's what people want, as long as you're good people, I don't really care. Um, I just want to add in there that Ayatella Humini was Time magazine's man of the year in 1979. Hubba Hubba Bubba. So there's that.

Ed 1:29:36

And I don't know if that Time magazine man of the year thing is quite the same as like, you know, another man of the year that's based on physical appearance.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:44

I I don't know. Um from what I heard, he was not he was not a smiler. Um it's actually heard and um um having a hard time, sorry guys. That's an agest. And what are you doing to me? I'm not so my hands were up here.

Kara 1:30:04

I'm not touching anything.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:06

Everybody should Google this man and look at his so he it was told that after the war he never smiled again. And I think it shows very much shows because his is, I mean which which which which what else is very interesting, and I kind of what I want to kind of do is kind of end off on Ayatollah Khamenei because there is a lot to go into, and I don't want to start something that I can't finish.

Ed 1:30:32

But he looks like Sean Connery.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:34

You mean George Clooney? No, he looks like Sean Connery. You're both right.

Ed 1:30:42

He looks like Denzel.

Kara 1:30:44

What a beautiful chocolate man.

Ed 1:30:46

I did find a picture of him smiling.

Kara 1:30:49

And he is dead, so we can't they're not gonna get sued. He's dead.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:52

Are we um is he with his grandchildren? Because what I was gonna say is very interesting. A lot of people said that he was very serious. Um I can see his family, his family said he was very outgoing, very kind, very had some personality there, you know, not just this angry face. Probably one of those things where he was different at work than he was at home.

Ed 1:31:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:18

Oh, yeah, that's my dad. I mean, everyone was afraid of my dad until they got to know him. Now they're like, Your dad's kind of dorky. Like, yeah, I know. All dads saying this guys were scared of him, and I was like, why? It's weird. Just because he doesn't talk. Anyways, RBF is real. Um, when Ayatala Humini heard about the satanic verses, and this is gonna be something that I'm gonna cut off on because I'm not getting into it, he was angry, he was very upset. Um, to put it the easiest term. I have no idea how to define his feelings because they're really big emotions, and he just didn't know how to control them. Coping mechanisms, not good.

Ed 1:32:06

He went from a one to a 100 real fast.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:10

There was no scale. Yeah, like think about how far away that first star is. Think about the second one.

Ed 1:32:17

Yeah, it's the one light year away or a hundred million light years away. You you pick one. That's all there is to it.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:28

Upset. So he was not happy, and I think what I really want to preface on is he was a very loved, dear to people's hearts, religious leader in Iran. Deep offense. There's a lot, so much, and I'm so excited for you guys in part two to hear about Kat Stevens' opinion and how Larry David just is Larry David, and he actually did something kind of cool, which is so controversial, depend on who you're talking to. But um, good old Margaret that's we'll get there. We'll get there. We'll get there. That is Salman Rushdie, a bit about Ayatala Khamini and the Satanic Versus part one.

Ed 1:33:20

All right, did it nicely done.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:23

How do you feel? Tired.

Ed 1:33:26

Like But I think I can feel I I I I feel like flying solo on like a like a major episode, you freaking nailed it.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:35

Like really? Yeah, I am still sweating. I don't know if I'm like sitting here putting my hair up every five seconds, like fanning myself. You're doing fine. You get it. No, it's because it's hot in my house.

Ed 1:33:47

Yeah, I mean, yeah, it was very like thought-provoking and and all that stuff. So it's like, I'm now going to stay up all night like further researching all this.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:57

Because he you're not waiting. There's no way Ed is gonna wait.

Kara 1:34:01

And they don't have to be like, wait, hold on, hold on. Like, I don't know yet. Hold on.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:06

It's like um ruining the next episode for of um like girl.

Ed 1:34:13

I'm just gonna I'm I'm I'm that guy that like I wouldn't have seen the movie or read the books, but I've studied enough literary theory where I can see how this is gonna pan out. I'm that guy in the movie theater that's calling out like who's gonna die next, who's gonna win, like guys, this is this is boring, and then everybody's like, shut up, stop talking. Stop talking.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:42

Yeah, yeah, that's okay. As long as you don't ruin it and you just listen, it's all about consent, guys.

Ed 1:34:50

I like that. Yeah, consent's the key word. Don't say anything unless you have consent. And even if you do have consent, don't say anything to shut up.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:05

So yeah. Thank you. Yeah, that was that that's it, it gets uh worse. Good.

Kara 1:35:11

I can't wait.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:12

Yeah. I'm like I'm excited for you guys. Genuinely it's fascinating.

Kara 1:35:16

Yeah, no, that's good. That's good. We'll get part two out after this one. Uh, a couple housekeeping things. Remember if you have a trash can fire or if you just want to say hi, or if you have an episode idea of some weird historical nonsense, maybe a palette cleanser, because I'm still trying to find one. Uh, email us at thedaysdumpsterfire at gmail.com, or you can message us on Instagram, which Deja was kind enough to take over here pretty soon.

Ed 1:35:41

Revamp, remodel.

Kara 1:35:42

Yeah, she's gonna redo the whole the whole thing, which is good. Um, so you can reach us there. And I'm probably forgetting something, but it is late. So I'm just going to leave.

Ed 1:35:52

We have a website coming.

Kara 1:35:53

Yeah, websites coming.

Ed 1:35:54

Kara. Kara has been putting a ton of work into the website. Uh I have no patience for something like that. My job is to like edit the the things.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:08

As he edits. I can't.

Ed 1:36:10

I I I I get so frustrated with websites and stuff like that, even though I like making forms in Microsoft Word.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:17

But I I like building websites, but it the process of it's very frustrating.

Ed 1:36:22

Yes, but it is very tedious. It's almost like we need a a sponsor for like a website making.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:29

I know a guy. I worked at GoDaddy for six years.

Kara 1:36:36

Oh, good. GoDaddy.

Ed 1:36:40

His name is Daddy. Sponsor, and uh, I have no way of paying him back. No, me either.

Kara 1:36:48

On that note, we will see you in the next one. Thank you, Deja. Thanks for listening. Thank you, guys.

Ed 1:36:56

Yes, great episode. So catch you next time. All right. Keep it a hot mess, y'all.

Kara 1:37:02

Bye.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:03

Bye.