Ed 0:00

Hey everybody, this is Ed.

Kara 0:01

And this is Kara.

Ed 0:02

And this is your day's dumpster fire.

Kara 0:05

Where we don't celebrate humanity's successes.

Ed 0:07

But its most fantastic failures. Man, oh man, that's a delay.

Kara 0:28

We'll figure it out. It's fine. Editing for the wins.

Ed 0:31

Right? Yeah, I clicked on the the uh little button here that says play shortened intro, and then it's like okay, four, five, six. So yeah, no, I I think we've got ourselves a rather interesting story. Uh we've we we've actually been very busy. Uh everything ranging from the Vietnam War to uh our probably one of our more crazier episodes where we brought the podcast setup into the classroom where we talked about Titanic. Yeah. And uh that that that should be a a good listen because we got our kids involved.

Kara 1:17

Like our students, we had them get together and actually try to figure out from their perspective what what happened with the it was either that or find the wildest theory they possibly could, I think is what they actually did.

Ed 1:33

But yeah, I I I I think the I think the crazy theories is a lot more fun.

SPEAKER_02 1:39

Yeah.

Ed 1:40

Some of them came up with some of the more like viable ones, like the whole insurance fraud claim. I can see that one having an element of truth to it, but yeah, there is there's some also really wacky theories out there. It's uh the the the kids did a pretty good job. The only problem with it is the editing on that took forever. Note to self, don't ever record in a big giant open classroom. Yeah. Because the the echoes were just horrendous. So like I had to go through and like edit every single word. I think I finished with 4,790 edits. Sick. So I got I got pretty good at editing at the end of that.

Kara 2:30

I'd hope so.

Ed 2:32

Yeah, no, we've had a we've had a pretty uh ambitious couple of weeks here with like the Vietnam War and then Titanic and and all that. So go be sure to go take a listen to those, check out the website, daystemstoffire.com. Uh make sure you hit Instagram and all our other fun stuff. But uh yeah, let's let's get into it. This is gonna be an awkward one for both of us because you and I have, as far as I know, haven't ever been pregnant.

Kara 3:01

Correct. But at least you have kids. So you've had a wife who's gone through it.

Ed 3:07

Through it, yeah.

Kara 3:08

I have dogs.

Ed 3:09

That's that's yeah, that's what I got. Because they're exactly like kids.

Kara 3:15

No. They are, but they're not. They are, but they're not.

Ed 3:21

Yeah, I've had people, I like I've had dog people tell me in the past, like, oh yeah, I don't have any kids, but I have dogs, and and there's like no difference between the two. I'm like, no, no, they're they're they're they're pretty different.

Kara 3:34

Yeah, there's there's differences. I could see some similarities, but there's definitely differences as well.

Ed 3:42

Yeah, I'm not worried about my dog waking up in the middle of the night, like changing diapers. Actually, no, I instead my dogs just get up in the middle of the night and it's crap all over the carpet.

Kara 3:52

Oh, that sucks. Sorry.

Ed 3:54

You don't have that problem?

Kara 3:55

No.

Ed 3:56

Oh.

unknown 3:57

No. No.

Kara 4:00

Only if they're not feeling well. But even when they're not feeling well, they're pretty good about waking us up in the middle of the night to take them out.

Ed 4:06

Oh well, I mean my my pit bull is, but not my other Yorkie and whatever buddy is.

Kara 4:13

That's fair.

Ed 4:14

But I think smaller dogs have to malt like everything, but but yeah. We are we are going into uh babies. Babies and baby babies. Uh we we're not gonna go too much into how they're made. I'm I'm assuming most people understand how they're made. Uh if you don't, Wikipedia or ask your parents. We are gonna go into a rather famous medication. And you know how like you you go and you're watching those pharmaceutical commercials where they talk about oh, this this medication can cure this or that, and then it goes on like this rant, like this rambling list of just every single side effect known to mankind.

Kara 5:06

I literally just made that joke looking at your notes. So, yes.

Ed 5:10

Yes. Well, and and the funny thing is that the symptoms that you went into are just what are the symptoms of morning sickness. Yeah, oh, cool. Yeah, we haven't even got into the actual medication yet. Uh sick. So, like, this is the first case of okay, let's put out a medication and let's not test it, let's just put it out there and see what happens, and lo and behold, there's a lot of problems. And the medication that we're talking about is called thalidomide. And it's one of those things you can ask yourself, what could possibly go wrong when the developers of this medication were former Nazi scientists that were like fresh out of jail for crimes against humanity?

Kara 5:59

I don't think I would trust it personally. My my own personal choice.

Ed 6:05

I would I don't know. The way the way I look at it is it's like, oh, you failed to put that on your uh on your uh background check.

Kara 6:14

That wasn't on the resume. Yeah, is it a two-pager?

Ed 6:17

Like, yeah. Well, so what were you doing between 1935 and 1945? Like, it's just blank, there's nothing there.

Kara 6:24

It's just can you account for the lack of employment during screws?

Ed 6:31

Do you have any references?

Kara 6:33

Yeah, references.

Ed 6:34

It's like, no, I don't, they're all dead. But yeah, we we let's go back to 1952, and it seemed like at that time the number one global export was babies. And I actually I don't want to say export, that makes it sound like we're human trafficking. I I I would say the GDP of the world at that time was in the currency of babies. And when you think about 1952, like the proximity to World War II is it's only just seven years. In fact, this is kind of the height of the baby boom era.

Kara 7:13

And these are our homeboys we were talking about in the midst of the Vietnam War last time.

Ed 7:19

Yes, yeah, this is the generation that the the folks that fought in Vietnam were kind of like the kids that came out of the baby boomer, so to speak. And like according to Britannica, Europe suffered between 15 and 20 million deaths through direct combat or collateral damage. So, you know, World War II really didn't hold back in terms of what killed who, right? You drop a thousand-pound bomb in the middle of Dresden, like that bomb isn't gonna be like, okay, what's am I gonna take out soldiers only? No, I'm taking out anybody that's around. So 20 million deaths is huge. It's almost like an entire generation of men. When and there's a lot of women and children in there, but they were trying to target military. Um, so when men were returning home in between like 1945 to 1950, well, let's just say if you've been overseas for five years, you've been away from your girlfriend or your wife or whatever, uh, and you've barely survived one of the probably actually the worst war in human history. Uh you kind of have one thing on your mind, and that's to make up for a lost time. So we have that factor going on. The other thing, too, is like after World War II, especially in America, like work was very plentiful. It was kind of like the uh what happened with the plague, right? The plague kind of thinned out the population, so then workers can come back and be like, hey, you don't have enough workers, you get to start paying me more.

Kara 9:01

Yeah, it's kind of why Surfdom died.

Ed 9:03

Yeah, yeah, because suddenly now there wasn't an excess of people. And where was I? Um, so there was as a result, there was an influx of jobs compared to the lack of working people. Uh, when work is plentiful, there is a and there is a continent to rebuild, men are willing to step up their work ethic on the job site, uh, whether it's in the workforce or in the bedroom. So these men coming home to like, you know, coming home to their homes in Europe or America, they're like, okay, I'm ready to work, and I'll take one for the team in the bedroom. Like, they will, they're, they're going, they're gonna rise up to the occasion. So as a result of a lot more people getting it on, you're gonna start seeing more pregnancies. And this is where we get the baby boomer generation. Uh, this is the I think this is the generation that is currently like midway through their retirement. Uh like half of them have retired, and now we're waiting for the other half to retire. And and that that that's like financially with social security, that's a whole nother animal altogether trying to pay for all that. But we got a lot of pregnant women, especially in Europe. And one of the first signs of pregnancy, in fact, this is how a lot of women would kind of uh identify that they were pregnant.

Kara 10:32

Get nadier.

Ed 10:38

They get naughty.

Kara 10:39

No, they get an idea.

Ed 10:40

Oh, well, they get the idea primarily from they wake up and then they feel like they have good poisoning.

Kara 10:48

And they throw it.

Ed 10:48

Yes. Like, that's how it was with my wife. Like, she kind of had an idea when like, hmm. Normally I don't get sick in the mornings like this, and then once you have that happen for like two days in a row, that's when you go see a doctor, you get a test, or you at that time they didn't have the little sticks that you pee on. But yeah, women women can definitely tell pretty quickly if they're if they're pregnant. Uh, but back then the really big sign was the morning sickness. And they don't they still like scientists still don't fully understand what causes it. They they think it could be like an imbalance of hormones, uh, which is common in the first two to three months of pregnancy. Uh blood sugar levels are too low in the morning. They think that could be a thing. Um, extreme exhaustion, emotional fatigue, or stress. Like, there could be a whole bunch of things. And what's really weird is that like a mother could have their first child and be like, Well, I had no morning sickness. This isn't that big of a deal. And then they could have their second kid, and then it would just be violent puking for days on end. So, yeah, when it when a mother has like their second kid, they could just be violently ill. And meanwhile, their first kid, nothing. Sometimes women um could really not get that much morning sickness in the first trimester, which is typically where it usually happens, but then the second trimester and they're violently ill. Uh, there's a lot of women out there, unfortunately, that they go from day one to month nine just sick as a dog. Yeah, and that that those those are the ones I feel really, really bad for. And whenever you have millions of women that are pregnant, especially like in Europe, the chances are that you're going to have more and more women that are going to be nauseous to the point where like they can't do anything for nine months straight. So, yeah, it's strange. It's really a case-by-case situation, it's but a child by child situation. And uh, and to make it worse, nobody knows exactly what the causes are. And they used to think that it could be like, uh, oh, well, the more physically fit you are, the chances of you having uh less morning sickness are better. No, no, you can you you can be extremely overweight or you can be like extremely fit and it's up in the air on how sick you're gonna get. Not to scare the women out there, but I mean, uh it's it's one of those things I think women are kind of like psychologically, they have like a a switch in their head. They're like, okay, it is what it is, we'll we'll figure it out, kind of a thing. Whereas like me, I'm like catatonically afraid to throw up. I can't, I I get absolutely terrified of it. I will literally worry myself sick if I think I'm gonna throw up.

Kara 13:58

Just make it worse.

Ed 13:59

Uh yes, I make it infinitely worse. Now, here's the part where we're gonna start to sound like some pharmaceutical medication commercial. So uh a list of symptoms um are long and varied and can also last a long time. So the most common one is nausea, loss of appetite, vomiting, dizziness, headaches, upset stomach, uh, heartburn, acid reflux, motion sickness, seasickness. Uh for most, the condition lasts for the first trimester, first three months or so of the pregnancy. Uh, for some, it can last the entire pregnancy. For most, it affects women primarily in the morning, but those unlucky enough, it can last the entire pregnancy or the entire day and can result in nutritional deficiencies. That that's kind of a big one. If the morning sickness never never abides, then then there's there's a problem there because nothing is staying down.

Kara 14:59

Yeah, because your body doesn't have that nutritional value to give you or the baby.

Ed 15:05

Yeah. Well, I and I and I remember when my wife was pregnant with used to have my first or second one, and they there's that myth out there that oh, careful, you mean you gotta eat for two. Uh no, it's it's a lot more than that. You I hate to say it, but it's kind of like a parasite. Like you you've got to take care of that that that parasite as much as possible. I have a funny feeling that because I I do know when I took childhood development and education, that first trimester the woman's immune system is going haywire because there is a foreign object growing inside of her, and that immune system is doing everything that it can to attack whatever this foreign object is. And and I I mean I'm not a doctor, I'm just throwing it out there. I think that may have something to do with it because then after the first trimester, the body's like, fine, I guess you're gonna be here for like six more months. I it may have something to do with that, but all I know is that in the late 40s and 50s, there was a demand from women for a solution to this morning sickness issue. Uh, the cases of morning sickness are a lot less if you know there's say 500,000 women. But when you've got millions of pregnant women, the cases of more extreme morning sickness go up. And so it's it, yeah, it's an entirely different thing when the proportion goes up. Five percent of five hundred thousand is very different than five percent of say fifteen million, if that makes sense.

Kara 16:45

Mathematically, it makes a lot of sense, yes.

Ed 16:47

Yeah, yeah, and and don't forget the number of doctors, it's not like Europe had a lot of doctors to work with, and they were just getting calls left and right, and like they were being stretched in, and it's not like it's not like women are weak, right? These women are not calling up because they've got a stuffy nose, right? They're not like the hospitals here in Arizona that are just absolutely loaded right now because somebody's left left nostril is stuffy. Like women are not gonna call a doctor unless, you know, unless they can't actually function. And so these doctors, especially in Germany, were just getting blown up figuratively, not not literally. The war is over. Um so let's not forget that yes, women were home more than their man's, uh, but they still worked crazy long hours. That's the other misconception, is that okay, you're at home and you're sick. What's the big deal? Um, the big deal is that you're home and you're sick. Because these to be a homemaker back then, I mean, it is a full-time job maintaining a house. It it takes a lot. I know like my my wife and kids have been out for a couple of days now, and like I'm trying to clean this house, and it's just me. So I'm the only one who's messing it up, and it's still a full-time job. Everything from vacuuming to dusting to cleaning the windows, the the cleaning the kitchen, play their feet up, and all that kind of stuff. But the men would just go off to their nine to five jobs, and then they come home and you know, crack open a beer, and yeah, and and then they're they're kind of useless for the rest of the night. Meanwhile, women have been working that entire day, and that's not even including the fact that a lot of them had multiple kids that they were trying to trying to maintain, and especially when the one person is doing it. Yeah, it's it's it's one of those things where like to be a homemaker, period, is an unbelievable. It it is a career, it is, and yeah, yeah. And my my wife has an aunt and uncle, you know, he he's got a a pretty high up position at a chipmaking company, and and so they're in a position where it's a it's a single source income. And I remember this aunt, like she had what four daughters, and they were all just a couple years apart from each other, and just trying to raise them, and yeah, it is a wild amount of work. So it imagine trying to do all that and have an upset stomach and throwing up at the same time. So, and it's not like the women could take the day off, right? They can't go to their husbands kind of like today they can. Like, because a lot of families you have both husband and wife working, and they're working from home. And now I think if I'm I'm I'm assuming that if the husband is worth anything, then he would be like, Yes, honey, get some rest. I'll take it from here. I don't know how common that is, but I I would hope it's more common than it was in the 50s. Um but back then it's not like women got sick time. In fact, if the man got sick, then that was another kid that she had to deal with. It's just something about when men get sick, it is you know, they could have a head cold and they're on death door. It's I don't I'm not saying I'm uh I fall in that category, but there have been times where I've had like a hundred and three fever and and all that kind of stuff, and I'm like, I'm done, I'm I'm laying down. But then there's times where my wife could have 103 fever and she's still like working. So it's it's funny how men are willing to tick a bullet, right? Go to a battle, but they're too afraid to get a head cold. Uh doctors did have some treatment options for these women. Uh and and and some of these are kind of funny, and some of them I think actually do work, and some of them are just kind of like, really, doc? Really? This uh really okay. So uh the number one thing was uh avoiding acidic or spicy foods. Fair. Okay. That's fair. Eat small volumes of food. Okay. Okay. Uh consume ginger.

Kara 21:35

Okay.

Ed 21:36

That I actually do. If I have an upset stomach, I'll I'll eat some I could see it. Like candy ginger. Yeah, because ginger causes the stomach to make more stomach acid, which helps like calm things down. Uh eat toast, crackers, bananas, applesauce, rice.

Kara 21:53

So basically it's actually a diet that a lot of doctors prescribe to people with stomach issues. Makes sense.

Ed 21:59

Yeah. Yeah, they're they're very basic, uh, not a lot of wild ingredients, and they supply electrolytes and and sugars as needed. Um, I I love this one. Avoid stress.

Kara 22:13

I'll do my best, doc.

Ed 22:15

Yeah, as you've got like five kids running around the house. Just and then this other one here is um rest as much as possible. Just that's up there with like don't get sick. Um this one is kind of a no-brainer. Avoid certain odors. Uh because I I uh you talk to any pregnant woman or a woman who's been pregnant in the past, and they have very, very specific smells that can set them off. And it's not like it's uh you know a fat deuce in the toilet. It it it could be like a cucumber smell could trigger it. Um it could be anything for my wife. It was actually sounds certain sounds would upset her stomach.

Kara 23:03

Oh, that's interesting.

Ed 23:04

Yeah, that that that one's a little different. Um drink plenty of fluids.

Kara 23:10

Okay, makes sense.

Ed 23:11

Yeah, that's been around.

Kara 23:12

That would make sense, yeah.

Ed 23:13

Yep. Uh, and yes, even some of the old school doctors are like, yeah, have have a little brandy.

Kara 23:19

Oh, yeah, that was actually really common back in the day.

Ed 23:22

Yeah, especially like during World War II, it was not uncommon. I want to say it was encouraged that women get like completely smashed if they were pregnant, but um having having a little bit of alcohol or a glass of wine here or there.

Kara 23:37

Oh yeah.

Ed 23:38

Uh by today's standards, that is like, oh my gosh, you're feet all alcohol. Don't do that. Everybody's gonna freak out. But but back then, yeah, it was that was kind of like, yeah, go for it, whatever works.

Kara 23:49

That that probably lasted to like the 70s or 80s. Yeah. Say 70s.

Ed 23:54

Yeah. I mean, I I imagine my grandmother probably did that. Um, not that she drank too much, but it's one of those things, is it's like, yeah, it's it's one of those situations where yeah, if you do it in moderation, it's probably not too bad. But today we know, like, just don't do it, period.

Kara 24:12

Yeah, yeah. Like, I'm not condoning that whatsoever. I'm just saying that that was common practice before. There's a reason we don't do it now.

Ed 24:20

Yeah. Um, take a multivitamin. Cool.

Kara 24:25

Okay.

Ed 24:25

This one's another good one. Rinse your mouth.

Kara 24:27

Oh, I like that one. Just get some Listerine, you know, that'll help you out.

Ed 24:32

Yeah. I I actually I found this out just recently. Alcohol can be absorbed through your mouth.

Kara 24:38

Okay.

Ed 24:39

So, like, if if you're drinking, you know, scotch or whatever, uh, like a small percentage of the alcohol that is in that drink will be absorbed through the mucus linings of your mouth and go into your bloodstream.

Kara 24:53

Interesting.

Ed 24:54

Yeah, and the same thing with your esophagus, like it will be absorbed the whole way down through your esophagus. Um, and then of course it hits your stomach and then yeah, it goes from there. But but yeah, I I didn't know that. It's it's one of the reasons why, like, you like if you're driving and you're possibly drunk, do not rinse your mouth out with mouthwash, thinking that'll fix it. That'll actually make it worse. It has to come back a little worse. Yeah. And then my personal favorite this is like the ultimate recommendation. If you want to get rid of morning sickness, stop being pregnant.

Kara 25:35

Yeah. I I have thoughts that I will keep to myself.

Ed 25:44

Yeah, men, men doctors, they uh they really got this figured out. Kind of like those medieval monks that said that a woman's uterus is an octopus that moves all around the body.

Kara 25:57

We're uh we're we're we're doing it. We're doing fine, we're doing great.

Ed 26:01

Yep. Yep, go men. Um let's look at part two. There's a pill for that. For many women, just changing diets, resting more, and stop being pregnant wasn't an option. Uh morning sickness was becoming unbearable. Many people in developed nations were being inundated with scientific advancements that could make life easier for everyone. So, like, there's a lot of uh um, I remember watching Nick at Night when I was a kid, and Nick at Night was cool because they had like these old commercials from like the 50s and the 60s, and all these new technologies that would change the world, and uh refrigerators and dishwashers. Oh, yeah, microwaves.

Kara 26:48

So microwaves, yep.

Ed 26:49

Like the big one was Velcro, oh yeah, 1955. We have the microwave, which was 1955, and I love seeing images of this typical housewife with this big giant turkey as she's stuffing it in a microwave, and yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that my grandmother tried smok uh not smoking, but microwaving a turkey one time. God. Um, I didn't know you could actually turn turkey into chalk. Like my brother and I were literally drawing on the tablecloth with this turkey. Oh television that came out in the late 40s. Um, my grandfather's first television was like the size of a chest of drawers, and it had a six-inch screen, and it had like two channels.

Kara 27:35

It's like a giant piece of furniture and a little tiny screen.

Ed 27:38

It was, yeah. It was literally like, but here's this glowing screen in the middle of the room, and and my uncle remembers that thing, and he's like, This is incredible. Like, technology can never get any better. As after this, I'm gonna go turn on my 4K television.

Kara 27:54

Um well, you know.

Ed 27:57

Uh my personal favorite, Roland deodorant. Sick. So but I think that before there was global warming, I think there was body odor that was really uh as much as I want to go back in time and see New York City in the 1880s and stuff like that. I oh man, everybody must have just stunked a high heaven back then.

Kara 28:23

I think that people don't think about that. I think about it a lot, but I'm weird because it's like when you go on a camping trip.

Ed 28:29

Like, if you ever go on a week-long camping trip, like my wife and I have done that where we go out for like you know, four or five nights and stuff like that where there's no showers. We walk into a grocery store and like the whole produce aisle just wilts. Like everything, all the meat just goes bad instantly, the milk immediately turns to cheese. Uh, but my wife and I are completely unaware that that we are stanking up the place. So uh polio vaccine, 1952, and and so much more. So, like, we're living in a society where women are like, okay, we have all these advancements. Why can't we figure this out? Like, what what can we do, right? If I can microwave a turkey, we should be able to cure morning sickness. So humans have survived morning sickness since the conception of pre pregnancy, no pun intended. Uh, but women in the 50s were like, hang on, with all these advancements, where is my cure for morning sickness? Because it seemed that like it was getting worse and worse and worse. So usher in the demand for miracle medicines. And and these aren't medicines that we are used to seeing, like the charlatan stuff from the 1800s, early 1900s, where like, hey, drink this elixir and it will grow your hair back, and it will cure your bladder infection, and you know, it'll fix your heart and it'll help you sleep, and it will cure the cold, and it'll remove that weird mole on your back, and like ground unicorn horn and snake oil, and you're all set. I I was actually in the 1800s, going to the 1900s. It's like it's morphine mixed with whiskey, mixed with laudanum, mixed with like that sounds right. It says, like, no wonder that's gonna fix everything. You're just basically drinking fentanyl, like of course that's gonna make you feel better. Yeah, there was there were but but in the 1950s, though, there were medications coming out that were a lot more specific, they were a lot more targeted. Uh, there was actually a bit of science that went behind it rather than just like making people drink liquid fentanyl. So these miracle drugs or medicines, yes, miracle medicines have been around forever, and most of them were full of dubious ingredients, like I mentioned, like alcohol, opiates, sketchy herbs. Um, there was a time where people thought arsenic uh was a uh that was like a cure all, like small doses of arsenic.

Kara 31:07

My favorites like grind up mummy bones.

Ed 31:09

Oh yeah.

Kara 31:10

Love that one. And usually it's just like dirt or chalk.

Ed 31:14

Yes, yeah, because somehow drinking uh a solution of ground up dead guy is gonna help you live longer.

Kara 31:24

It could. We don't know.

Ed 31:26

I guess, yeah.

Kara 31:27

I mean I would like to see the the data and science analysis behind that.

Ed 31:32

I would love to be able like, I don't even have to be like a medical student. I want to go to a university and be like, I need a $13 million grant to go to Egypt, grind up some mummies, and see if that helps people live longer.

Kara 31:47

See, we're we're making progress with these ideas. Somebody do this.

Ed 31:52

I will well, I'll I'll just pocket the 13 million and then I don't think I'll get that far. Okay, well, I'll figure it out, I guess.

Kara 32:03

I'll get it peer-reviewed somehow.

Ed 32:05

Yeah, meanwhile, I'm out there committing education fraud. Um so I think most women were skeptical of these cure alls by now. Uh they all had their wives' tails and and stuff like that, but they kind of held an exception of the science community. Like the the expectation of the science community is like, okay, we you you guys need to figure something out. And they did. And they came up with a drug classification called a barbituate. Now, barbiturates were designed to treat anxiety, insomnia, seizures, muscle spasms, alcohol withdrawal is a is a major one, especially for today. But more importantly, for these women, nausea and vomiting. Barbituates is where you they're I want to say they're quite like a narcotic, like Vicodin and stuff like that. Those are like those opiates are more designed for pain, whereas a barbituate handles more, I don't want to say psychological, but it it plays more with the brain chemistry to reduce like hyperactive nerves. So, like a almost like a muscle relaxer in a way. The only problem is that barbituates are very addicting, uh, very addicting to the baby as well. So they were running into issues where babies were born with withdrawals, like drug withdrawals from barbiturates. And they could tell because like they would have an elevated heart rate, uh, extreme agitation, uh, they want to breastfeed, you know, they they were constipated. Like it like imagine being born and then immediately being addicted to something, which is one of the reasons why like they stopped giving a lot of morphine to pregnant women. But the but it it is a thing where if a woman is not responding, like she's only dilating to a certain part, like to an extent, uh, they will give a little bit of morphine to help with that discomfort before they do an epidural, but they're not gonna load you up to the point where like you're in and out because that could translate in going into the baby, and not so much through the placental uh uh process, but through uh breastfeeding.

SPEAKER_02 34:25

Yeah.

Ed 34:25

That there was a whole field of science just dedicated to what medications and pregnancy go hand in hand. So, like, there's some medications like, yeah, take it. It doesn't affect you at all. Uh, it won't affect the baby at all. It'll affect things when you're breastfeeding, but it won't make its way to the baby. And then there's others that are like, no, no, no, no, no, don't take this because it will mess up your baby, as we will see here. It can cause other uh birth defects such as mental and emotional issues. You know, when you're taking a medication that can affect your emotional state, what do you think that's gonna do to the baby as it's developing?

Kara 35:05

Yeah, cause some problems.

Ed 35:07

And there's a lot of medications that we still have today where there's just not enough research to indicate, like, we just don't know. We don't know if it's gonna do anything. And that's kind of scary, but when you look at the fact that there's hundreds of thousands of different medications out there, that's you know, that's a lot of testing you have to do. So what now? Well, introduce a new drug that would change the world in terms of morning sickness capabilities, as well as a bunch of other issues. So now we're getting into one of these miraculous cure-all drugs, thalidomide. Thalidomide was introduced in 1953 by a Swiss company called SIBA.

Kara 35:44

SIBA CIBA. Anybody wants to holler? Let us say B A.

Ed 35:53

I I I want to say SIBA.

Kara 35:55

Yeah, that sounds right.

Ed 35:56

But yeah, well, let's go with SIBA. Um, in 1954, SIBA abandoned the product for one reason or another, and uh the company was bought up by a German company, Chemi Grunenthal. Sweet. Yeah, Kimmy Grunenthal. And I uh Grunenthal, yeah, I've I've heard Grunenthal and stuff like that. I don't know, man. I'm an American, it sounds like Grunenthal, so we'll go with that. And it was founded by Herman Wertz Sr. as a subsidiary of the Maurer and Wirtz company. I I love how we're now getting into the time period of economics where like we don't know who owns what.

Kara 36:40

Yeah.

Ed 36:41

Like this company owns this company, which is a subsidiary of that company, but that company is in partnership with the subsidiary of the other company that this company is, and it's just like, didn't we go through this prior to World War One? Like, can't we just make it very linear? But it even it's even like that today. Like, yeah, yeah, you you break up Microsoft and you're breaking up a lot more than just Microsoft Word. It's it's it's pretty involved. So the Grunenthal company was initially set up to research antibiotics, which was a major thing in demand at that time, which, you know, that makes sense, right? People are getting infections left and right still, and people, I think we're starting to come into the time period where like maybe people are starting to become a little bit more immune to antibiotics. And what I mean immune is that like an antibiotic doesn't actually kill the infection. An antibiotic is a thing that works with your immune system to kill the infection. So an antibiotic just tells the body, like, hey, by beating the crap out of me, you're strengthening yourself up to go take on this bacteria. And there's a very common problem now where people are becoming more and more resistant to antibiotics. And that yeah, that can that can cause a problem if you don't respond to any antibiotics. But at that time, huge demand. They employed a chemist by the name of Heinrich Mukter. Mukter. You got it. Heinrich. Heinrich Muchter. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, really got a hockeoogie when you say that.

Kara 38:22

I'm sure we really got a lot of listeners with that moment there.

Ed 38:25

Oh, I can't wait to edit this and just like really put the reverb in and just hit those, hit the just jack up the lows, really get the bass, the whole mucus-y effect in the back of their head.

Kara 38:38

You're welcome, listeners.

Ed 38:39

Yes, we're now down to one listener. Um, and that person may be deaf. So there we go. Imagine a podcast for deaf people. I guess that would be transcripts. Lots and lots of transcripts. Anyways, so Heinrich Mukter had done work on uh anti-typhus vaccine. He was hired on the following people as well. So Heinrich Mukter was kind of like, okay, hey, dude, uh, you're the one in charge. You're you're like our chief engineer. Okay. Heinrich brought on Martin Steimler, who was a medical doctor, and which is good. I think it's a good idea to have a medical doctor on board when designing medications for human consumption. Makes sense. Uh, you have Heinz Baumkotter. That's a fun one. Yeah, yeah. Heinz Baumkotter.

Kara 39:29

I like that.

Ed 39:30

Yeah, that's a that's a that's a good one. Kind of like Baumgartner. Oh, yeah. So Heinz Baumkotter, he was an experienced medical doctor, and then Otto Ombrose, and he was an experienced chemist. So it seemed as though like there was some pressure to get something out of the market of sick women. And instead of researching an all-new medication, they found the patent for thalidomide. So remember, they bought out SIBA and they were like kind of like Rolodexing through all their patents, and they're like, Oh, what is this thalidomide stuff? And they saw that one of the positive effects was that it could greatly reduce nausea and therefore help with morning sickness. So get this. So now we we are currently what 1954, 1955. They find this patent that was abandoned by its creator, and in 1956 it was put in the market.

Kara 40:31

I feel like there's some steps that were missed.

Ed 40:34

Uh, there were steps that haven't even been invented yet.

Kara 40:37

Sick.

Ed 40:38

Uh now, granted, they did skip some steps, but compared to like today to do a drug trial, that is it takes years. And that's one of the the gripes is that, like, hey, we could find the cure for AIDS, but it could take 20 years before it comes out into the market because of a case just like this. Because they was gonna say, yeah, like it takes all these years and tens, if not hundreds, of millions of dollars, and all the testing and permitting and all that kind of stuff, but there's a reason why, and you'll see why uh here in a little bit. So, thalidomide is out in the market, it's everywhere in 1956. When it came out of the market, people just gobbled the stuff up. There was some concern if the medication was a teratogen. A tratogen is any poison or any substance that could have a negative effect on the development of a fetus. So, for example, if you're pregnant and you're snorting rows of coke or hitting that smack hard, like not good. I'm trying to talk drug here, but uh smoking that devil's lettuce, um boy, marrowana, uh yeah, no, like drinking large volumes of alcohol, alcohol would be a teratogen in a pregnant woman. So there was some concern, but people kind of just turn a blind eye to it because suddenly women weren't as sick anymore. And our panel of experts claimed that it was perfectly safe and it was tested for pregnant women, which was not true. Thalidomide and its subsequent names, because this is the other thing they did too, and and and we still do this to this day like we'll make a medication, our company will make a medication, and then they'll repatent it under like all these different names so that way they can lock in that patent for a longer period of time. So there's Contergon, that was from 1957 to 1961, Distavol, with 1958 through 62, Softenon, which that sounds weird. I feel like that's something that you would take to help you poop better. Uh Talidix, and then Talitzer, and then Neurosidin. So, yeah, lots lots of different names. Lots of names. Yeah, well, and there was actually more than that. As like there was like a dozen of them. It was crazy, and it seemed like every country had a different name for it.

Kara 43:14

Yeah, I feel like they're starting to run out. Uh I saw one that had Riz in it, and I know maybe Floriza or something, and I just thought of our students. Like, oh, I know.

Ed 43:26

Like, man, did you take your skippity riz today? Oh, I hate it. Oh, I hate it too. Um, but yeah, thalidomide was popular because it eased morning sickness effectively and didn't have like hangover effects or withdrawal symptoms like barbiturates. That's the other thing, too. A barbituate affects the alcohol receptors of the brain. So if you take too many barbituits, it kind of you kind of behave as though you're drunk. And when you get up the following morning, you have a hangover because The barbiturates have been broken down, and now it's a toxin that your body's trying to flush out. So it does kind of behave a lot like alcohol without behaving at much like alcohol, which is the reason why they use a lot of it if you're going into like a rehab center for severe alcohol addiction or or something of that nature. So the other thing, too, is it appeared that thalidomide was not addicting. Thalidomide was so popular in the late 50s that it was eventually sold over the counter and without a prescription. Now, now we're talking. And then like what could possibly go wrong? So at this point, like whenever you say something could go on the market without a prescription, that means you have tested it so thoroughly against like every combination of over-the-counter drugs, and you can prove with a high degree of certainty that this will not have an adverse interaction with something else. So, for example, you can take two ibuprofen and drink a martini, it's probably not gonna do anything. Whereas if you take two Vicidin and then drink a martini, okay, now you've got a problem that could potentially stop your heart, kind of a thing. So the fact is that they just went out and they're like, hey, this medication can cure insomnia, it can cure colds, flus. Actually, I don't want to say cure, it can treat the symptoms. So I should probably be very clear on that. So insomnia, colds, flus, headaches, anxiety. Uh that is one of the side effects of any any anti-nausea medication will make you kind of sleepy. And when you're kind of sleepy, you don't have as much anxiety. And anything else that people thought it would be good for treating. So now we're kind of going back to the late 1800s, early 1900s with the whole snake oil thing.

Kara 46:02

It'll kill male male pattern baldness.

Ed 46:06

Yes, yeah, it'll it'll it'll treat ovarian cancer in men. Yep.

Kara 46:11

Like perfect.

Ed 46:14

Yeah, testicular cancer in women, like all the things. Yeah, all the all the things. So the drug was so popular and the marketing was so good that it was advertised that the people making it in the Grunenthal plant take it on a regular basis.

Kara 46:32

Oh, sick.

Ed 46:33

So they were just giving it to their employees. Nice.

Kara 46:37

So which they were probably super stoked about that.

Ed 46:41

Actually, the employees they were like, This is cool, like, don't give me a pay raise, I'll just keep taking thalidomide.

Kara 46:46

I was actually kind of serious. Like, they were probably super stoked.

Ed 46:49

Yeah, yeah. Like they they were honestly like, yeah, dude, I'll take some. Uh it's almost like radium.

Kara 46:56

Yeah.

Ed 47:00

Yeah. The people and and the thing was, it's just like there was just you know, there was millions of people taking this, and there were like no reports of anything bad that was happening at first. So in 1960, the plant produced 14.6 tons of this stuff, and when you're taking thalidomide, you are taking a molecule that is identical but different, and you can't separate out that, as we will get into. So um humanity had its first true miracle cure that wasn't super dodgy, it was super dodgy, yeah. So, part three too good to be true. Uh the Grinenthal Company, as well as our four German friends, Mechter, Steimler, Baumkotter, uh, and Ambrose were making a lot of money, and things were going great until the early 1960s. In 1961, Dr. Williams, William McBride, an Australian obstetrician, and Dr. Vitikund, lens.

Kara 48:19

That's pretty good. Better than what I can do. That's good.

Ed 48:22

Yeah, yeah. Videkin lens, a German pediatrician and geneticist. So DNA had only been discovered like not even a decade before. So it was theorized in the 1800s, but it wasn't until the 1950s that DNA was a thing. So having a geneticist, that was like kind of at the forefront of science at that time, uh, made independent investigations into thalidomide and a rash of congenital malformations. So a congenital disease is basically something that you're born with, like um sickle cell anemia, right? It's um if you're born, you know, with with like a clubbed hand or a clubbed foot or a cleft palate, that's a that's a really common one, uh, where the face symmetry isn't lined up perfectly. Like that's a congenital thing, meaning that it it formed when you were forming, like literally when you were forming, and it's like a another name for it would be like a birth defect. Uh, but the proper term is a congenital malformation. Uh, parents were starting to report all over Europe as well as the rest of the world that more and more birth defects were happening. Yes, birth defects happen all the time, but these were specific types of birth defects, and they could all be grouped together. So the probably the major one was a limb defect. So babies were being born with uh shortened or missing arms and legs, or limbs that were fused together to resemble like a flipper, so like their fingers would be fused together, kind of like um remember the uh uh the penguin from the what was the second Batman movie? He had that. Remember how his hands were more like kind of like flippers instead of actual fingers? Oh yeah, that that that's a thing. Eye defects, small or missing eyes or other eye malformations, ear defects, so missing parts of the ears or born deaf, facial defects, so paralysis of the facial nerves, heart defects, which is defects in the heart.

Kara 50:46

Perfect.

Ed 50:47

Yep. So I think probably the the major one is with the heart defects. And I knew I used to work with a girl in retail, she had a heart defect where you know how your heart has like the four chambers, and you've got the two major ones on the bottom. Uh, there is a wall in between there, and there was like a hole through that wall. Oh. And so, like when her heart would beat, not all of the blood or as efficiently was making its way to the lungs. And uh it's it's generally not a life-threatening thing if it's small enough, but yeah, she had to have open heart surgery uh when she was real little to get that fixed. Uh, which I'm sorry, if you're a heart surgeon working on like a one-year-old, you're you're the one driving that Mercedes in in the parking lot, I feel like.

Kara 51:40

I have to agree. I'm inclined to agree with that.

Ed 51:42

That one of the craziest operations I saw back when the health channel would actually show like operations.

Kara 51:48

There was Oh, yeah, we love we used to watch that all the time. Sorry.

Ed 51:51

Oh, yeah, those are great. Uh, there was the one where this lady was doing a heart operation on a fetus inside the womb. That's a trip. Yeah. And it wasn't laparoscopically, like she opened up the mother, got to the uterus, opened that up, and then they opened up the baby, and it's just like that's impressive. Um stupid salary. Yeah. That that's you know, I I if I I'm okay with that doctor making a crap ton of money. I'm perfectly fine with that. So internal organ defects, so defects in the kidneys, brain, digestive, reproductive systems, sensory impairment. So obviously, we could guess sensory impairment being born deaf or blind or anything like that. A skeletal structure defects, so damage to the skeletal structure in terms of like, hey, your femur is supposed to be so long, or your tibula is supposed to be so long, or your fibula is too short, and and and all that kind of that kind of stuff. Um, your your shoulders aren't developed. What was who's the kid from uh Stranger Things? He he actually doesn't have a collarbone. Oh, what was his name? He's the one that what kind of um oh man, I can't remember his name.

Kara 53:17

Hold on, I'm looking it up.

Ed 53:18

Yeah, thank god for editing. But um I thought it started with a G.

Kara 53:23

Getin Madarazo.

Ed 53:25

Yeah.

Kara 53:26

Oh, the kid who plays Dustin, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ed 53:28

Yeah, yeah, there we go. Yeah, yeah, like he doesn't have a collarbone. So it's weird. Like he can actually like bring his shoulders in front of him and make it like his shoulders can touch. Like it's really weird. I didn't know you could live without a collarbone, so good on him. Uh you do you do your thing? He's actually a really good actor, right? Yeah, I like him. Yeah, he's he's he's really cool. Yeah, he's cool. Uh, it was observed that on top of the birth defects, there was a high mortality rate. So 40% died at or shortly after child uh birth. That's pretty bad. Um yeah, that's a lot. I mean, I would even say 1% is bad, but like 40.

Kara 54:12

40%'s pretty high.

Ed 54:14

Yeah. Yeah, especially given this time, like there should be no reason. Like, why is it that there was a better mortality rate in the 1920s than there were with these women in the 60s? Those who survived had major birth defects. How much was too much and when? When the world got down when that there might be something tied to severe birth defects and mortality rates to thalidomide, everyone began investigating the issue like hardcore. And and I mean everybody, I mean everybody was digging into this thing, and they did these very fast studies, and they were uh one of one of the issues with thalidomide is that there was no research on it, there was no real studies, there were some basic tests done on some mice, and they're like, Well, we injected this mouse with thalitomide, nothing happened, give it to the people.

Kara 55:11

I'm telling you, missing steps.

Ed 55:14

Well, it and I hate to say it, but that was kind of like standard practice. Like, hey, if it didn't kill the mouse, yeah, and mice are and it was believed that hey, mice are vastly inferior beings to a human, and the reasoning was that okay, it's like a canary in the mind thing. If it doesn't kill the mouse, then it can't kill a human. So, you know, that logic checks out, like Flan B. Um right. So the world just kind of went went crazy into this, and what I mean crazy is I mean they were like communicating with each other, they were sending research reports to each other, they were peer reviewing, they were doing all the things that you're supposed to be doing in an academic setting. And thalidomide, uh okay, yeah, uh defects and mortality race to thalidomide, everyone began investigating it. It was discovered that women who took the medication within the initial initial 20 to 30 days stood the highest chance of having a birth abnormality. 20th day caused central uh brain damage or could cause central brain damage. 21st day, so bear in mind you're a pregnant woman, you're in your first trimester, so you're like zero to 60 days into or zero to 90 days into your pregnancy, and they they got so specific, like okay, 20th day could cause central brain damage. The 21st day of your pregnancy. So let's say you're taking phylitamide for your second day that it was prescribed to you, uh, it could cause damage to the eyes. The 22nd day, so now you're taking it for three days. It could cause damage to the ears and face. 24th through the 28th day, right? So now we're going on like a little over a week. That's where you could see damage uh or malformations in the arms and legs and hands and all that stuff. So there's like a period of a week in your pregnancy where if you just took this medication, say like once in the morning, and many people were taking it multiple times a day, uh, if you were just taking it once a day, there was a week in your first trimester where you could be doing unbelievable amounts of damage to your baby. That's kind of wild when you think about it.

Kara 57:45

Yeah.

Ed 57:46

Like that's that's not a big window, and that's not a lot of medication, which is really scary. Women who use the medication after 42 days seem to be clear of potential risks. So they did enough studies to find out that okay, uh, it's zero to 42 days, that's where you run the highest risk, especially the 20th through basically the 30th day. Once you hit like 42 days, after that they were like, okay, we're not seeing any issues. Like, it's fine. So taking one dose of the medication during the first month of pregnancy established at least a 20% chance of an issue down the road. So just one of these pills can cause yikes, lots of problems. It seemed as though Europe, Australia, and Canada had the most amount of issues for various reasons. The most common reason is that a lot of countries didn't have a robust food and drug monitoring system like the US. In America, there was this lady, and I I really wish they would make a movie or do a biopic on her. She is an unsung hero in America, Frances Oldham Kelsey. Uh, she was a US FDA pharmacologist uh who started to see the relationship between thalidomide and birth defects. And she caught on real fast, and she was a sharp lady. Like, and she stood her ground, and she got a lot of intimidation because, as a result of these relationships, she's like, Nope, I am not approving this drug in the United States. None of this will ever make its way into the country. And she got a lot of pushback, a lot of threats, a lot of potential lawsuits filed against her. Like it was her against the entire pharmaceutical industry at that time. Yeah, she but she held her ground. She was quick enough to see that like this this is this is not good. One company, the Richardson Merrill, who wanted to manufacture ethlyamide in the US, but Kelsey refused to approve the application unless they supplied clinical uh trial information. So she's like, Yeah, all right, cool. Like, show me the evidence that this is safe. Now we're kind of going back to like the leaded gasoline thing, where it was like, hey, if you're gonna say that leaded gasoline is dangerous, then we need unbelievable amounts of proof to show that it is dangerous. Until then, it is harmless. She's kind of taking that approach here. Like, if you're saying it's safe, you need to prove to me that it is safe. So Richardson Merrill only supplied testimonials and no real scientific trials. So they were just like, Well, talk to these people that we found in Alabama.

Kara 1:00:34

Like go read our Yelp reviews.

Ed 1:00:37

They're great. Yeah. They Googled it and they saw four or five stars and they figured that's good enough.

Kara 1:00:47

That's good enough. Yep.

Ed 1:00:49

And they only went back 60 days.

Kara 1:00:51

See, kids, this is why we do our research thoroughly improperly.

Ed 1:00:56

Yes. Yes. And don't be afraid to have somebody check it out and be like, mm-mm, this isn't right.

Kara 1:01:03

Yep.

Ed 1:01:04

There's there's whole panels and and universities that that's all they do is they look at like these grant proposals, they look at these experiments, they look at all this stuff to make sure that this is scientifically viable, it is responsible, it is ethically funded, it is ethically um implemented. Like there, that that's a that is an entire scene in a university that is gotta be dreadfully boring because they're reading these research papers that are like 80-90 pages long, and they have to try to find like errors in the methodology. So uh 60 days was the rejection window. So basically, she shot down the application for 60 days, and 60 days was a rejection window at that time. So Kelsey kept rejecting it, uh, the application for up to a year before she was able to kill it off entirely in 1961. As a result of this tenacity, she prevented a lot of birth defects from happening in America. And in 1962, she received the president's award for distinguished federal civilian service from JFK.

Kara 1:02:16

Nice.

Ed 1:02:16

Yeah. Yeah, like I said, she's she's a pretty interesting lady. And I don't it I don't think she gets enough recognition for what for what she has done. And if it was a guy saying it, I feel like if if a man came out and said, No, no, no, no, we're stopping it here.

Kara 1:02:37

Okay. Oh, yeah.

Ed 1:02:38

Or there'd be some pushback.

Kara 1:02:40

There'd be a little bit of pushback, but since it's a woman, especially in the late 50s, early 60s. Oh yeah.

Ed 1:02:47

Yeah.

Kara 1:02:47

Pushback left and right.

Ed 1:02:49

And and it and at that time, it wasn't even so misogynistic where men would be like, oh, she's a woman, she doesn't know what she's talking about. It's more like, oh, she's a woman, we can just bowl her over and intimidate her, and we can get her away. Yeah. And I feel like there was probably a lot of mansplaining going on. So like there was probably some sales rep at this Richards, uh, Richardson Merrill going up to her. Like, this guy sold vacuums prior to being a salesman for this company going up to Kelsey and but like, do you do you even know what a medication is? Like, do you do do you know what what pharmaceuticals are? Like, I get I could just see that going down.

Kara 1:03:33

Oh, I could too, a hundred percent.

Ed 1:03:36

It it just Kelsey just had to just take a breath. She's like, I have a PhD in this, you idiot. So yeah, uh, the rally is that it didn't take long for the world to piece together the fact that this medication, just like any other medication, cannot be a miracle cure to fix all ailments. It was kind of like Kelsey that established a fact, and well, and once it like in America, keep in mind America is the number one superpower, everybody looked to America, everybody saw America as the authority figure on everything. And then when America comes out and says, yeah, no, we don't we don't want this in our country, then the rest of the world's like, crap. Okay. Uh that that's a problem. But in the meantime, though, this Grunenthal company was doing everything in their power in Europe to try to like downplay the birth defects. Uh, they were doing everything in their power. They that they're making promotional ads saying that like the birth defects aren't really a thing. Uh, they were borderline like Alex Jonesing it and just trying to gaslight the entire world. And yeah, it is estimated at this time, I think I have it written somewhere here, that there was at about 10,000 children that had birth defects associated with this thalidomide. That's pretty bad. Yeah, and and if you see pictures of it, and I'm and and I'll put some on here in the show notes, but like you see like these little kids that are trying to write with no arms, or they're having to wear like this plastic back brace in order for them to stand up because their spines aren't developed, or you know, they're they're literally missing an arm and a leg. And you know, just just the the quality of life of these kids, and a lot of them are still alive today. I think there's 2200 of them still alive today. Um, and it's like a community, it's like a worldwide community, you know, they have get togethers and and stuff like that. And thankfully, a lot of them grew up, uh, regardless of their arms and legs issues and stuff like that. A lot of them grew up, got married, had kids, doing fine. Like, that's pretty awesome. I I'm I'm loving. Lucky enough to get married as I am, let alone imagine the uphill battle I would have had if I had like you know no arms or legs. Fins.

unknown 1:06:11

Yeah.

Ed 1:06:13

I would swim very well.

Kara 1:06:15

That's true. You you might make the swim team.

Ed 1:06:17

Yes. Or I would be like a buoy and just kind of float there.

Kara 1:06:21

Or the penguin from Batman.

Ed 1:06:23

Or yes. I gotta get my nose out longer, but I uh the rest of me's got the physique for it. Who played that was Danny DeVito, right?

Kara 1:06:34

I think so.

Ed 1:06:35

Yeah.

Kara 1:06:35

I think so.

Ed 1:06:36

He's a good actor.

Kara 1:06:37

With Arnold as Mr. Freeze.

Ed 1:06:39

Oh no, that that was terrible. Oh god, I love those movies. Anyway. Bet nipples. Um so yeah, in the meantime, Grunenthal was doing everything in their power to kind of just patch it up, just like lead and gasoline, right? They did like why ruin a good thing? Because they're making millions off of this. What what what is part four here? Like, what is happening in the body? And this is kind of like a hobby of mine lately. I've been studying a lot of like how different substances actually work in the body because it's not black and white, it's not easy, it's not like, oh, I take this medication and this happens. Yeah, it's there's so much more that goes on behind the scenes. So, what shocks me is how fast the world was able to put everything together to conclude that thalidomide was the culprit. Yes, granted, the medication had been out for seven years prior to the first reports of the birth defects. The reality is that once the claims were made, the world concluded pretty dang fast what the problem was. Like they were able to piece it together. This is interesting because at the time there was no real clear rhyme or reason for how the medication affected the unborn fetus. So they came to the conclusion that thalidomide was causing these birth defects, but they didn't exactly know how. And typically speaking, if you're saying that something is causing something, you need to be able to specify how it is. Given the degree upon which the information spread around the world, it was possible for scientists and table bureaucrats to communicate and take action. Uh, this is a time like, yeah, we had under-ocean telegraphs, telephones, and mail. Today, something like this could be around the world in a day. But even back then, it could take a bit of time to transmit. Say, like, how do you how do you send a 120-page research paper through a telegraph wire? Like, I feel like that would take forever. Many places like the US, England, East Germany, and Canada, by 1961, the sales of thalidomide had ceased or were well on their way out with Canada ceasing sales in 1962. Oh, I mean West Germany, not East Germany. East Germany was with the Soviet Union. East Germany, though, never even allowed the sale of the medication period. Uh, probably because it was under the Soviet control and the Reds didn't want anything from the West, even if it could make life better for inhabitants. This is one of the cases where, you know, being on the wrong side of the iron curtain when it fell worked out. Yeah, I mean, I guess. Silver lining. Silver lining. You can't eat, but you don't have to worry about birth defects. And then there's Chernobyl, but that's a different story. Um, not all the countries acted fast, though. Spain's drug regulation system was greatly lacking and allowed the sale of thalatomide to take place well into the 80s. In Western Germany, things looked uh took a little longer. This is where the problem all started, uh, because as a whole, the Western nations, as well as German survivors of the war, avoided keeping track of malformed and disfigured babies. The aversion was due to the practice of former Nazi regime keeping closed eyes on records of congenital defects in people to expedite the Nazi quest for committing war crimes against humanity. So basically, like people kind of like turn a blind eye towards birth defects because it's like, well, it was probably tied to the Nazis. That that's where it was coming from. That's it. It's ironic that the people who were the first recipients of this medication were in fact the most blind to the repercussions, regardless though, the drug was outlawed in 1962. Even though the drug was banned for uh the most part in the 60s, the reasons why it caused severe beat birth severe birth defects was elusive. It wasn't until the 90s and going into the 2000s that scientists start to get an idea what was going on, albeit it's still not 100% confirmed yet, but they have a pretty good idea. To save a lot of time, confusion, and a high degree of potential misinformation. I'm going to try and simplify what was going on in the body when there was both thanamide and an unborn baby at the same time. In the 1950s, thalinamide was believed to be affecting, be effective in controlling morning sickness due to the medication's side effects, sedation. Uh, taking the medication had the effect of slowing down the user. The sedating effect thus made the person too tired to feel sick. So it's one of those things where if you have an upset stomach, it's because all the muscles inside your gut and all every all your organs are kind of going crazy, they're kind of doing their own thing. That's where the upset stomach comes from. If you calm all that down, then you cease being sick to your stomach. It was known to affect nerves. So keep that in mind. It affects nerves. Even back then, sothilidamide was believed to ease morning sickness because the nerves in the digestive tract were not as responsible. That is where uh responsive, that is where the desired effect comes from. You tell the nerves to calm down, and bear in mind your gut has the second highest density of nerves, second only to your brain. So you've got your brain and then you've got your gut that makes up like 99% of all the nerves in your body. If you're taking a medication that calms the brain down, it's probably gonna calm the stomach down. If you take something that calms the stomach down, it's probably gonna cause the brain to calm down. However, it was noticed that some women and subsequent babies were not affected. Uh, tests were done in various animals, and they discovered that humans, as well as rabbits, armadillos, marsupials, chickens, zebrafish, and even bacteria were highly susceptible to the effects of thalidomide, and yet mice were not affected. Sick. Yes, this is like in the 90s and 2000s.

Kara 1:13:02

Great.

Ed 1:13:03

Yes. So Grunenthal only tested their drug on mice. Since mice had no, like mice didn't even really register the medication, they just figured, hey, it didn't kill the mouse, give it to humans. Since they only tested it on mice, there was no way for them to know it could cause this much damage. And I don't think there was any research protocol that specified that multiple animals had to be tested. So keep in mind in 1953, uh, 1953, DNA had just been discovered, let alone uh look at genetic differences between humans and mice. Like there was no idea like how much DNA do we share with their fellow animals. It turns out it's a lot, but there's very, very specific, like a specific protein can be the culprit, as we will get into here. But if they had just done the testing on other pregnant species, this whole thing probably could have been avoided. However, it was observed in the 2010s that thalidomide is known as an enantumer or an enantumer, or a compound or compounds that are identified but mirror images of each other. There was an R enantumer and an S enantumer. R enantumers had the sedating effect, which are desired. S enantomers was a teratogen and caused the birth defects. And what's interesting, if you look at these, the the molecule thalidomide, like you'll see the molecule like point off to the right, and then you have a mirror image of it pointing off to the left. That doesn't mean that they're the same because they're mirror images of themselves. So by having the molecule point a certain direction and direction, and then you take a mirror image of it, those two things will behave differently. Like that's all it takes. And something that's always blown my mind about like biochemistry and stuff like that is like you could take a molecule and you can move a carbon atom from one side of the molecule to the other side of the molecule, and now it's poison. That like that that's all it takes. And there's no way to manufacture thalidomide to eliminate the S enantiomers. If they could figure out a way to do that and just do the R eneantiomers, problem solved. There would have been no no birth defects. And the birth defects only happen to people with a very, very specific genetic trait that can't even be fathomed until you do like a uh like a genome of somebody. The S eneantiomer, uh, I and I apologize to the biologists out there who are screaming at me for not pronouncing that right. I should have done a Google pronunciation on it, but you get the point. The S enantiomer uh had a tendency to mess with a specific protein used in fetal or yeah, fetal infused in fetal cell formation called cell 4. And this protein is what helps create the nervous system, specific organs, and a bunch of other stuff that you are born with and that you'll carry for the rest of your life. This one protein is responsible for kind of laying down the foundation. So, Carol, when you were like the size of a marble, your body was relying on cell four to like, okay, we need to lay down the roadmap of the nerves. We need to lay down like where are the kidneys gonna go. We need to lay down where the bones are gonna grow. And that's kind of what this protein helped facilitate. When the nerves and other foundational structures are messed with, especially when you're the size of a marble, then the instruction manual for how a baby is to be assembled, so to speak, flies out the window. And the developing fetus is biologically guessing as to what it's supposed to do. Sweet. Which is the reason why, like, when you first develop, like you form your core. Um, I I read somewhere that human beings are like the only animal uh that forms the anus before anything else.

Kara 1:17:27

That's a fun fact.

Ed 1:17:28

Yeah, it's an interesting fact because that literally means that at one point in time everybody on earth were a-holes.

Kara 1:17:36

Oh yeah, huh?

Ed 1:17:40

That's fair. Yeah, so like that they were just living a-holes. So yeah, I found I saw that on Instagram, and Instagram wouldn't allow anything to go on there that wasn't accurate.

Kara 1:17:52

So yeah, yeah, it's gotta be real.

Ed 1:17:54

It's gotta be real. Um, so yeah, without what we with this S in the N tumor kind of messing with this cell four and all that kind of stuff, the the nervous system couldn't develop right when it did. The nervous system can't develop right, then we start running into other structural issues, like what do bones do? And so the reason why you have nerves in your teeth. If you had no nerves at the time that you're the size of a marble forming in your head, you would grow no teeth. Because the nerves are what say, hey, something's gotta happen right here. At a deeper level, certain people with a very specific genetic marker were unsussip or insusceptible to thalidomide, but 10,000 up to a hundred thousand were, so it is projected that it is up to a hundred thousand uh people could have been affected by this. So part five, the thalidomide trial. On May 27, 1968. Uh, keep in mind thalidomide had been in use since the 1950s. Nine Grinenthal senior employees were put to trial in Allesdorf. I don't know where that's at, uh, before the grand criminal chamber of the regional court of Aachen. Aachen. I'm sorry. The Europeans have a way cooler name for their court system.

Kara 1:19:19

The Regional Court of Aachen. Yeah.

Ed 1:19:22

Oh, I'm looking at the first grand criminal chamber. Anything with grand regional court of Aachen.

Kara 1:19:27

Yeah.

Ed 1:19:28

Like that's pretty epic. Let's see.

Kara 1:19:30

Uh Alsdorf. Where's Alsdorf?

Ed 1:19:34

I think that's in Germany.

Kara 1:19:35

Sounds like it. Yep. It's in Germany, folks.

Ed 1:19:39

Cool. Nice. But yeah.

Kara 1:19:42

Anyway.

Ed 1:19:43

Before the first grand criminal chamber. I I don't ever see myself committing a crime where I have to go before a judge. But if I do have to go before a judge, I really hope it's in front of the first grand criminal chamber. I think that it sounds very Star Warsy.

Kara 1:19:59

Yeah. Yeah, it does.

Ed 1:20:01

Like First Inquisitor, all that kind of stuff. The aim of the trial, keep in mind at this point, the world or people have forgotten that the people that developed this medication were former Nazi scientists. We just gloss over the fact that some of them got pulled out of jail because they had uh experience making antibiotics or drugs or whatever. They're like, hey, you look useful. We'll pull you out of jail.

Kara 1:20:30

Yeah, this is good.

Ed 1:20:32

Kind of like uh Erin von Braun. Like, he came to America to kind of develop a space program here, and he was heralded as a hero. But he knew full and well what was going on with the Nazis. He had Jewish slaves working for him in the tunnels, and while they're working on the V1 and the V2 rockets, it it they knew, but that's a that's a whole nother episode unto itself. All nine had to be found innocent or guilty. So they charged all nine at once, which I don't understand why. So I feel like when you have that many people, there's gonna be some people that knew more and actively tried to hide it, and then you're gonna have people that had literally no idea what was going on. Yeah. But they charged all nine of the senior members. As a result, this case was doomed from the start. All nine had to be found innocent or guilty, which means all the defense had to do was find one person who was without a doubt not involved, and the charges would get dismissed. And that is exactly what happened after about two years. All nine of these executives walked out with zero responsibility for their actions.

Kara 1:21:43

I mean, that really sucks.

Ed 1:21:46

Yeah, and and and to think like if you're a part of those family members that have been affected by this, or you've been affected by it, like, but there's no accountability. No, and they blatantly tried covering stuff up, yeah, just like the leaded gasoline thing. Yeah, yeah. Like they actively took measures to cover it up, to obstruct, to slow the process down, and it just blows my mind that they can walk away just like that, and it's happening to this day. It it's just crazy what what some of these people can get away with. It's also crazy what what they get caught with, too. So it's a it's a yeah, it what is that lady that she had that uh genealogy company that she's not that wasn't hers, it was another lady that was she had a biotech company and she got busted with like can committing like millions of dollars of fraud and yeah, there's like a necklace documentary or HTBO documentary on that. Yeah, yeah, and it's I I may watch that, that's kind of kind of interesting. But however, there was a civil trial that did not go their way. So criminally they walked away, civilly, not so much. So in a settlement, Grunenthal agreed to pay 100 million German marks, about 50 million dollars, into a foundation. So we have that today. So, like the whole opiate crisis, the pharmaceutical companies got sued because they were just basically telling doctors to throw out oxies and and all that stuff to people like they were candy. Now they owe billions of dollars. It's not like those where does that billion dollars go? Well, it doesn't just go to the people that were affected to it, it goes to a foundation that they have to set up, and then that foundation divvies it up amongst the states based on what they plan on doing with it and and all that kind of stuff. It it's kind of complicated. That makes it so that like one person just doesn't receive all the money. It it makes it that it has to be like through a committee and all that kind of stuff. Uh, the foundation was called the German Federal Contergon Foundation, so that was one of the names of thalidomide back in the day, uh, to help with ongoing medical and physical and financial support for the remaining thalidomide babies. That's what they were called. It is interesting to note that the German government also contributed an additional 100 million German marks to get the foundation going. So I thought that was that was interesting. So, like, okay, we've got like this $50 million lawsuit that the Grinenthal company agreed to settle on, but then the German government is like, but we're gonna dive in too, and we're gonna try to help fix this. And so, like, the basic premise behind this this foundation is like, okay, obviously, if you're a thalidomide baby, you're not able to walk or use your hands, you're not able to function in society compared to somebody that is fully able-bodied. So it's like, how do they make a living? Right? And the way this foundation works is just like, hey, I I don't have hands, I can't make a living. What do I have to do? So you fill out an application, which if you have no hands, I don't know how you fill an application, but you ask for help. Yeah. But like you you would you would apply for to get basically a grant, so you'd get almost like a salary or like a disability check as as a result. I guess that makes sense. I mean, you gotta take care of these people somehow. It just sucks because you kind of have to like constantly renew over and over and over again when it shouldn't be that complicated. However, by accepting the settlement, this is always in every clause or every settlement agreement. If if you accept a settlement, you agree that Grunenthal could never be sued for this issue again. So all they have to do is write a $50 million check and they're unsuable after that. Like you can't go back and say, hey, we need more money. You can't go back and say that, you know, this trial wasn't fair, like we should have gotten more. Or you're like, let's just say, like, you somehow you found out that as you're a athletomide baby, and you just found out in like 1979 that there was this lawsuit and that you could have been the recipient of money, and so you're like, screw that, I'm gonna sue them. You can't. They basically have double jeopardy in that regard. So for them, this is a screaming deal. $50 million, that's it. Okay, sold. It's almost like those companies that uh those mines that produce like lead fumes that go up in the air, and they could spend tens of millions of dollars to retrofit the smokestacks to scrub out all that lead, or they just pay like the $1.5 million a year in fines, and then they just shut the mine down in like six, seven years. Yeah. Yeah, why why invest if you don't have to? Yeah. Uh to date, the German government has spent up to 1.8 billion marks, or about 2.07 billion US dollars on providing funding for the nearly 2200 survivors of the thalidomide era. In 2012, uh CEO of Grünenthal, uh Harold Stock issued a formal apology to all the women and children and and men who were affected by the decisions to mask the negative effects of thalidomide. Nice. So 50 years later, at least we did an apology.

Kara 1:27:34

Somebody did it, I guess. Like, props to Mr. Stock.

Ed 1:27:38

Well, and they uh thank you for finally doing that. Well, and I found out too, like, they actually have they have given more money too. Yeah, like they've they've they've been contributing into this. So, like the Grunathal that I think we see today is not the shady Nazi former scientists kind of folks. I I feel like they're a little bit more. On the up and up now. So part six. Back from the dead, right? You'd be thinking that thlitamide is done for, it's gone. No, it is still out there. And it's actually a pretty effective drug for a number of things. It turns out just because it causes traumatic birth defects, it doesn't mean get rid of it. It just means you've got to be careful on how you administer it. Thlitamide is a very useful drug to this day. Since the medication influences nerves and can damage and stunt growth as a result, as in like fetuses, uh, thlitamide saw resurgence as a great way to treat leprosy. Since thlitamide can stunt the development of new cells, it was very effective against the spread of leprosy in people, which okay. And I'm assuming if you're a leper, you're probably not having kids. Like I just feel like that's not a priority. Fair. And actually, I don't even think there is any cases of leprosy today. Because that's all treatable now. Back then in the 60s, 70s, and 80s, like I know Hawaii had a leper colony for a while and stuff like that, but now that's all treatable. Uh cancer treatment. Since cancer is an unregulated cell growth, thalidomide has been shown a lot of promise of stunting the growth of cancer cells. So a lot of like uh what was that, a myoma cancer cell or or something like that. I can't remember the there was like a list of specific cancers that it can treat. So yeah, like that's cool. If it can if it can stunt a baby's growth or development, it can stunt cancer growth. So that's pretty cool. Um, it can help some folks who are experiencing complications associated with bone marrow transplants. So that was one of the things, you know, if you were a thalidomide baby, you would have like stunted bone growth in your arms and legs. And so they figured, well, if you've got a bone marrow transplant and if that transplant isn't going well, give that patient thalidomide because that can help mitigate complications from a bone marrow transplant, which is kind of cool. And then HIV patients have experienced positive benefits from thalidomide again. If you like if you look at all these issues here, chances are you're not pregnant or are you planning on getting pregnant anytime soon? Like, I don't if I'm a woman I and I know that I have a cancer of some sort, like an advanced cancer, I'm probably not gonna want to get pregnant during all that.

Kara 1:30:35

Yeah, and there is a a reason why they always ask you those questions when you go to the doctor.

Ed 1:30:41

This is that reason. Yeah. This is what that's because it's good to know, kind of a thing. Yeah, if you're if you're getting a bone mail transplant, again, baby's last thing on your mind. If you're an HIV patient, again, a baby is not on your mind. Even though it doesn't necessarily treat the virus, it has been shown to help with some of the other side effects of HIV. And then it's also helpful in treating autoimmune issues such as like Crohn's disease. This is all under the premise that anyone who takes this medication cannot be pregnant or planning on becoming pregnant, as this is the first large-scale medical dumpster fire, all because a little more research could have gone a long, long ways. Nice. And that is the story of thalidomide.

Kara 1:31:34

There it is. Excellent. So, and and if you see all my beautiful sources, I know I saw that, it made me real happy. I was super proud of you.

Ed 1:31:43

Yeah, and they're not like Bob's thalidomide side, like no, they're they're legit.

Kara 1:31:47

You got some dot govs in here.

Ed 1:31:48

Uh Mount Sinai, yep, uh PubMed, N CBI.

Kara 1:31:54

Nice.

Ed 1:31:55

So, yeah, no, thalidomide, that was that that's kind of it's it's it's it's a different dumpster fire than we've done in the past. Yeah, that was good. Like we've done like some medical stuff, like Theric 25, but that's just like a mechanical issue and a user issue. This was like, oh hey, you know, we'll just throw this out there and see what happens.

Kara 1:32:13

Yeah, we'll try it.

Ed 1:32:14

And and I don't know, to what extent do you think those those guys should be held accountable? Um the the people that actually like tested this drug and then threw it out there like the next day.

Kara 1:32:26

I think they should be held accountable because while they didn't have a lot of research guardrails to begin with, that I understand. There were still research processes I think they probably skipped.

Ed 1:32:39

Yeah.

Kara 1:32:40

So they should at least be held accountable for some of that stuff. And then after they found out that it was going to be a problem, they still tried to keep selling it. That's my thing. The sticking point, too. So there's a couple of things.

Ed 1:32:56

I mean, yeah, it's one thing to be called out and say, hey, you guys got a bad drug, and then you like you immediately pull it off the shelf.

Kara 1:33:04

Yeah, that's different.

Ed 1:33:06

Yeah, you immediately kill it, bring it in, and all that stuff. But as soon as you start trying to cover it up, I feel like that's just good life advice to anybody. Just don't try to cover up a mistake. If you screw up, it's all about intent. Yeah, yeah. Like if you screw up, just own it. It it'll go so much easier for you. But man, as soon as you start covering crap up.

Kara 1:33:28

Yeah, that's when you look real bad.

Ed 1:33:30

Hello, Nixon.

Kara 1:33:32

Yeah, that's when you look real bad.

Ed 1:33:35

Yeah, like you can't you just can't walk away from it. So But yeah, that was thalidomide. I I tried to avoid getting into the nitty-gritty of like this protein goes to this cell, and that protein affects that part of the DNA.

Kara 1:33:49

I do appreciate that because I I would have been very you would have lost me to my dreamland of my brain.

Ed 1:33:57

Right, yeah. And I I I just went as far as the enantumers because I thought that was kind of intriguing.

Kara 1:34:02

It's a fun word, it's a good word.

Ed 1:34:04

Yes, yeah, and and I was just looking at it in terms of like, okay, you may learn this stuff in high school biology, maybe a high school or a uh college biology class, and then just leave it at that if you're interested in it.

Kara 1:34:17

Do your deep dive, have fun, yeah.

Ed 1:34:20

That's all on you, so nice.

Kara 1:34:24

Excellent. I liked it, it's good.

unknown 1:34:27

Yep.

Ed 1:34:27

You want to brag about our website?

Kara 1:34:30

Yeah, so now that we are on winter break and things are starting to calm down a little bit, especially after Christmas, I am going to finally get our website updated um and ready to go for all of our current episodes that are coming out. So if you would please visit thedaysdumpsterfire.com, I would be appreciated. I would appreciate it. Um I would too. Also, we have our Instagram at thedaysdumpster fire. You can find us there. And you can email us at thedaysdumpsterfire at gmail.com if you have any ideas, if you have some questions, if you're looking for like a specific source for some reason, we're always happy to help. So yeah, if you want to contact us for whatever reason, you can.

Ed 1:35:13

Yeah, and I uh for those of you who've listened to the um Titanic episode, uh Kara and I try to like base a lot of our dumpster fires off of like where we are at in like history curriculum. Granted, philodomite here is a little later than where we're at, but it's one of these things where hey, if you're a high schooler and you're studying a time period in American history or world history or whatever, uh check us out because I think you what a lot of the stuff that we do, we kind of go into deep dives. Like obviously in terms of like thalidomide here, but we also kind of look at like the rest of the world a little bit and how is the rest of the world looking at at this kind of thing. And and your history teacher, dude, if if you if you throw in uh in in a history research paper or whatnot, you start throwing in like how this affects the bigger picture, uh, that will go a long ways.

Kara 1:36:15

Oh yeah.

Ed 1:36:16

And I feel like this show can really, really help out with that. And now that we're up to like what 44 episodes, we cover a wide range of stuff. So uh like to Kara's point, hey, hit us up, send us a message on our show notes. There's a link at the top where you can actually send us a text message, and that like we won't be able to respond to it necessarily because it doesn't come straight to our phones. But if you send us a text message, we can do a shout out for you. Um, I know we've had Nathaniel do it, I think Kane has done it. Like, just throw ideas out there. Definitely need to get the one going from uh Nathaniel on that Svalbard incident. That's that definitely sounds like a hot mess up in the Arctic.

Kara 1:37:01

And he's been asking for us to do that for a long time.

Ed 1:37:05

Yes, but yeah, um in the meantime, like tell people about us, you know, with the holidays here and all that kind of fun stuff. Like, be sure to blurt out the day's dumpster fire to your relatives. Everybody's got that Aunt Ethel that just got her smartphone, and because she's been carrying a flip phone for the past 20 years, like show her where to go because we're on we're on everything. Uh Amazon, YouTube, we're on iTunes or what is it? Podcast.apple.com. Uh, we're on Spotify. That's probably one of our biggest locations. Yeah, be sure to uh let people know about us. Uh show them where to go if they're not podcast savvy. And uh yeah, get them subscribed and let's get a let's get a movement going of people that are willing to embrace failure.

Kara 1:38:03

Yeah.

Ed 1:38:04

And dumpster fires, because we all we all screw up at some point in time. Granted, I haven't and I haven't like caused a hundred thousand birth defects.

Kara 1:38:14

So I mean I'm okay with that. That's good. Um on that note, I'm gonna try something different. I'm going to post on Instagram a little hint about what my next episode is going to be, my topic. And I'm gonna see if if there are some folks out there who want to uh give it a go. So if you find us at Instagram at the Day's Dumpster Fire, I'll go ahead and post a hint and I want to see if anybody can guess what my topic is going to be for my next episode.

Ed 1:38:46

I like that.

Kara 1:38:47

I'll go ahead and post that tonight before I go to sleep. And then uh we'll see what happens.

Ed 1:38:54

I may try that with uh uh a future episode as well.

Kara 1:38:59

Why not, right?

Ed 1:39:00

Yep, because I know mine involves a dolphin.

Kara 1:39:05

Oh that's fun. Mine mine involves an armada Armada, tree rings. Disease.

Ed 1:39:22

Famine, yeah.

Kara 1:39:24

Yeah.

Ed 1:39:24

You like the fan the the uh famine disease.

Kara 1:39:29

I like all the crazy big complicated events. I have to sometimes I have to reel myself in.

Ed 1:39:36

That's what I had to do with Custer.

Kara 1:39:38

Yeah.

Ed 1:39:39

Like Custer, I could have turned that into a five-part series. Because that was massive.

Kara 1:39:44

Oh, well, anyway, thanks for listening, guys. Keep an eye out for that Instagram post.

Ed 1:39:49

Yeah.

Kara 1:39:49

And we will see you in the next one.

Ed 1:39:51

Yeah, keep it a hot mess.

Kara 1:39:53

Bye.

Ed 1:39:54

Bye.