Ed 0:00

All right, Acara, I got a question for you.

Kara 0:02

All right.

Ed 0:02

I feel like I start each episode with like this. I got a question for you.

Kara 0:06

You do. But that's okay.

Ed 0:07

Yeah. You know, you can't you can't go against tradition. Okay. In your mind, what makes a good boss or a manager or a job leader or whatever comes to mind for that? Like, what do you think makes a good boss in your mind?

Kara 0:25

Someone who listens, who can take criticism, and who is willing to be flexible or try somebody else's ideas or be empathetic.

Ed 0:34

Okay. Dang. Put them out. All right. Oh, that's the episode. Pretty much got to it all. Um, what about like uh what about autonomy? Like, do you think a a a manager or a boss do like do can they be a good boss and be like a micromanager at the same time?

Kara 0:54

Depends on I wouldn't say micromanager, but if they are willing to give constructive criticism and feedback, um, that's one thing I appreciate. It's a different thing if they're micromanaging being a helicopter.

Ed 1:06

Yeah. But would you say like them giving you autonomy is kind of like a good spot to be in? Like they trust you to do the right thing.

Kara 1:14

Yes and no. I think yes, because they trust you to do the right thing. But then if you're doing something wrong and they don't tell you you're doing something wrong and you're just being you're stuck in a place of ignorance because you're not getting any feedback.

Ed 1:27

Oh, yeah. And then you're gonna get the the very famous, like, and I know you've probably had these meetings because you and I have a similar job background where we meet with the boss and they're like, Oh, you're doing great, just keep doing what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

Yeah.

Ed 1:38

I hated that feedback. That then why am I going nowhere? Why am I training my bosses if I'm doing so great? Kind of a thing. So yeah, so like giving complete autonomy is kind of a uh definitely a double-edged sword.

Kara 1:55

Yes, I'm very much a uh golden middle person.

Ed 1:58

A golden middle person?

Kara 2:00

Yeah, well, who is that? Aristotle? Socrates, one of those guys, the golden middle, the happy middle. You can't have too much of one thing or too little of another thing. You gotta find the golden middle.

Ed 2:10

Isn't it the golden ratio?

Kara 2:12

Whatever. It's the golden something, and it's always in the middle. So I'm gonna call it the golden middle.

Ed 2:17

A golden middle?

Kara 2:18

Yeah.

Ed 2:18

And it's not the same as a golden shower.

Kara 2:20

No.

Ed 2:21

No, no. Welcome to the days, dumpster fire. We don't celebrate humanity's successes, but boy, do we celebrate their most fantastic failures. And I'm referring to humanity as though like I'm not a part of that species, but I am. Where we celebrate our hardcore failures. So yeah, it's a podcast that really looks at people screwing up hardcore in the past so that when you screw up hardcore in your present, you can look at the past to not screw up your future instead of the present or the past.

Kara 3:11

That got really confusing.

Ed 3:13

Yeah, I'm I I just confused myself on that. So so yeah, that worked out great. Um, you're all with me. So I am your host, Ed, and uh joining me as always is Kara. Kara, how's it going in your world?

Kara 3:31

Good, keep it up with schoolwork, learning the history things. I saw the He-Man movie today with my husband, and that was super fun.

Ed 3:39

Oh boy, yeah.

Kara 3:41

It was fun. I was pleasantly surprised. But yes, solid over here.

Ed 3:45

Yes, I I want to see it this because uh of Histo. I wanted to see how they incorporated his character with uh today's sense of of humor. And based off what you told me so far, they did a pretty good job with it.

Kara 4:01

Yes, go watch it. It's solid.

Ed 4:05

So I say we get into uh into today's episode because this is a a topic that is really gonna kind of make you analyze or think about your bosses, hopefully in a in a different light. And I think everybody has been in a position of the kind of boss that we're gonna be talking about here, which is uh our old friend um Ronald Reagan. So, what we're talking about today is part two of the Iran Contra fiasco. And I and I apologize to our Iranian friends out there if you're in Iran and you're allowed to listen to this. I know it's pronounced like Iran, but I'm an American and I keep saying Iran, like I'm some like like general from the Civil War, and I reckon Iran is going to attack at any time.

Kara 5:02

How far did you run?

Ed 5:04

Yeah, well, I ran, that's all I know. Uh and if anybody knows me in real life, I don't I I don't ran very far. It's uh I'm good for about 10 feet, and then I'm like that Homer Simpson meme where he runs for like five feet and then he's like gasping for air for like the next minute after that. I'm also the kind of guy that can blow up my back brushing my teeth. Sweet. Yeah, I'm uh peak physical fitness for a podcaster. But yeah, we're talking about the Iran Contra uh fiasco. Uh so yeah, if you are joining us uh and you haven't listened to uh the previous episode, which is what, 76? Uh you might want to listen to that because we kind of go into some background in terms of what the Iran Contra scandal was about. We kind of left it off right before it turned into a scandal. But yeah, long story short, uh, in case if you don't want to go back and listen to part one, although you really should because uh yeah, this this this whole scandal is not what I would really consider a very black and white thing. It is very complicated, it involves Nicaragua, it involves the Soviet Union, it involves terrorists in Beirut, involves hostages, and yeah, it's a it's a very interconnected thing. But um, real quick, let's go over this. So, Ronald Reagan, he ran um on this campaign of being very critical of his predecessor, Jimmy Carter, right? And not necessarily even terms of like Jimmy Carter being like the epitome of the Democrat at that time, and Ronald Reagan. So we're talking like going from like 1980 to 81 here. So you got Jimmy Carter, who was obviously very, very, very Democrat, and then you had Ronald Reagan that was very, very Republican. And Reagan kind of campaigned under the premise that you know Carter really didn't handle the Middle East well. Uh, Carter, because there were hostages being taken in the Middle East, American hostages and whatnot. And Reagan was like, Yeah, Carter, you really didn't take a strong enough stance. And as a result, this issue in the Middle East is still going on. Uh, fun fact, the Middle East has been complicated for hundreds of years. It really hasn't gotten any less complicated. So, like, I guess you could criticize your predecessor president, but you're still inheriting a complicated mess. Uh, Ronald Reagan was very, very big on like, we will not negotiate with terrorists, we will not make deals with them, we are not going to work with them, uh, we're not going to recognize them with any degree of sovereignty. So that's one of the things that he campaigned on. Like, that was like part of his doctrine. He was not going to go back on that. The other thing that he was kind of facing was more fallout from the Cold War.

Kara 8:00

Cold War was basically America and the Soviet Union trying to spread their uh, I don't know, government ideologies, philosophies, like one for communism, one was for democ uh democracy, and it was a whole thing where the US government believed that communism was like a disease and then it could spread everywhere. So they had to fight for everybody to stop the spread of communism worldwide. And meanwhile, we have all of these other countries who are turning to communism because they are coming out of colonialism out from under democratic societies, and they didn't want that. So it's a whole thing, yeah.

Ed 8:46

Yeah, so like a lot of these small countries, you know, like Korea and Vietnam, and you know, and even countries in the Middle East, uh, Nicaragua and in Central America, they're like, Yeah, we saw this whole democracy thing. It's really just another form of imperialism, like it it's not that great. So we're gonna give communism a try. And then conversely, you would have countries that were like, Yeah, communism freaking sucked. So, like, we would see this in Eastern Europe, like Poland and all that kind of stuff, where they're like, Yeah, communism sucked, so we're gonna give democracy a try, but they had to wait until the Soviet Union collapsed because yeah, they had an iron fist on all of that. But I did mention Nicaragua, and there was like a uh very democratically elected president in 1955, and uh they kind of got pushed out by the Sandinistas, who were more communist-leaning, and uh yeah, the Reagan administration uh they really didn't like this happening, like they didn't like to see communism going into effect so close to home, right? It's bad enough that it took place in in Korea and Vietnam and all that kind of stuff. They really didn't want to see this take place in you know the American hemisphere, if that makes sense. Like it just, yeah, the disease is getting too close to America and Reagan being old school World War II, uh very much a part of the McCarthy era. I think Carrie, you said you wanted to do an episode on McCarthyism. I do because that would tie into the Salem witch hunts episode, because that's what the crucible was based on. But I think we should both like tag team that one. I think that'd be a great topic. But yeah, Ronald Reagan was just like he was the old school McCarthyism era that like you if you let communism get too close to you or you get too close to it, you're gonna catch communism. Like it's a physical, like mental ailment that that is at the height, especially in the 50s and 60s, uh, that was the the height of it. It it just got out of control. So we have just to recap here, we have Ronald Reagan, he's taken office in 1981, and he's got a deal with Nicaragua and the Sandinistas taking over. Uh they're they were communist, and obviously Reagan had to put a stop to that. Uh, but and he tried to put a stop to it by supporting the Contras, which were counter-revolutionaries. And the issue that Reagan had is that nobody in Congress really wanted to go down this path because they really didn't want another Vietnam. I can't say I blame them.

Kara 11:35

Nope, that was a disaster.

Ed 11:37

Yeah, like, yeah, there were there that that was just a war that never needed to be fought. You know, shout out to the Vietnam vets that went through all that. Like, you were involved in one of the most confusing wars in American history, and all things considered, you did a pretty bang up job. Like, so we're not criticizing the veterans there, but the the war in general, there was probably better things America could be doing with this time than getting involved in that. And a lot of the senators and representatives in America in 1981, you Vietnam was still very clear on their minds, and this whole thing in Nicaragua wasn't going to end well. So they actually passed what was known as the Boland Amendment, which basically said, Mr. President, you aren't even going to be able to give the Contras a penny. Like, you're not giving them resources, you're not like you're cut off. And even Reagan signed it. Like he he approved it because he didn't want another Vietnam. So we've got that going on. And then in the Middle East, you know, I just went over with Iran, and uh yeah, that that whole thing is like Iran isn't really a big fan of America at that time. They got rid of like their royalty type of regime, and they became extremely religious conservative, and uh, yeah, they were always viewed as kind of like a threat to America, and they also supported Hetzbollah, which is a terrorist organization, probably seen them on the news recently. Uh, they supported Hezbollah, uh, who were taking American hostages. So Reagan inherited like 25 hostages that were being held by a terrorist organization that was being supported by the Iranians, who was also being attacked by the Iraqis, with the Soviet Union looking in, like, oh, this would be a perfect opportunity to help out any one of these countries by giving them a bunch of weapons, and then we can spread our communism even further. Sweet. And it sounds like this that, like, man, it must suck to be the president. I don't understand why anybody would want this job because that's a lot of stuff to take on, and that's not even including like the economic issues that were starting to come up in the 1980s, and this s like this the extreme division of wealth, and uh just yeah, the rich got richer, the poor got children. Please tell me you know what that quote is from.

Kara 14:16

It's 11 o'clock at night, so not really at the moment.

Ed 14:18

Oh, Great Gatsby.

Kara 14:20

Oh, yeah. I haven't read Great Gatsby since high school, remember?

Ed 14:24

Oh, golly, yeah, that's right. Back before the war. Yep. Which we get to say that now. Um, I get to say that for a couple of wars. Uh, but yeah, it's um it is a very convoluted mess, and the Middle East has always been like this, and I don't like I I get a little irritated whenever the media portrays this as like, oh, the Middle East is like this because of the Democrats, or the Middle East is like this because of the Republicans. No, the Middle East has been like this because it is a group of cultures that think nothing like America, and they think nothing like Europe. They have their own beliefs, their own religion, their own philosophies, their own way of doing things, and it is a complicated mess because you got the rest of the world meddling in the Middle East and uh denying them how they want to live. And I think that was probably now that now that I say I think that was probably one of the root causes of the Middle East being so complicated. And I hate to say it, but I think the whole conversation of hey, what's happening in the Middle East wouldn't it even be a thing if there wasn't so much oil there? I feel like after World War II, like if there wasn't so much oil in the Middle East, it would have just been all right, Israel, here's some land, we're out. Go go do your thing. Because that's another thing that complicated the whole Middle East was what do you do with the surviving Jews from the Holocaust? Like, they need a home. So what what what can we do? I know. Let's go into the middle of Islam country and take land from them and then give it to the Jews. What could possibly go wrong? You know, like this won't have any ill effect whatsoever. So that's another whole incident that I I personally don't want to really dive into because that's very divisive today. And uh, yeah, that's gotten way too political, and I really don't want to open up that can of worms.

Kara 16:23

Yeah, we don't have to touch that. Let's stick to the 80s.

Ed 16:26

Yeah, the 80s is uh when it comes to politics, that's as about as close to the present as we want to go. So yeah, like in this episode, and you heard a lot in the last episode. I did mention like Democrats and Republicans a lot. Uh, just bear in mind that we're not taking a side. We aren't uh we're not trying to tout one side as better than the other. My goal was, and hopefully I did an okay job on this. My goal was to show that it didn't matter what political party you were in, it the Middle East was and is a very, very complicated part of the world, regardless of the political party. It's just the nature of the beast. And the Cold War was kind of the same way, right? The Cold War really didn't care if the Democrats or the Republicans were in charge. It it was a complicated, awful mess, regardless. So, you know, it's a true dumpster fire when both political parties in America can't even figure out what to do on either side, let alone even working together to figure out what to do to solve the problem. That is like chef's kiss, perfect dumpster fire material right there. And that's kind of what Ronald Reagan was in the middle of when he got elected. So uh that was the previous episode in a nutshell. Again, if you want more details on it, go check out the daysdumpsterfire.com. Um, got all sorts of goodies on there. Karen and I have been really hitting that website hard, updating things, putting new features on there, including a new link that you will see on each episode. So go check out part one. Now, let's get into part four. Because right now, uh, I just listed Reagan's two and a half promises. Promise number one, we gotta stop the spread of communism in Nicaragua. Cool. We're gonna do that by supporting the Contras. Cool. But we can't support the Contras because Congress said we can't. Okay. So we've got that promise. Then promise number two, we've got American hostages in the Middle East being taken by terrorist organizations or an organization that's still around today. All right, cool. We gotta free those hostages at all costs. Awesome, but we can't talk to the terrorists and negotiate with them.

Kara 18:53

This is uh this is productive.

Ed 18:56

Yeah, like this is this is uh a rock and a hard place kind of a thing. So, you know, we we've got that going on. So we've got those two promises, and then we've got like promise 2.5, uh, where Iraq saw like seized the opportunity to invade Iran and uh kind of start this nine-year-long war uh between the two countries that ultimately put Iran in a really, really tough spot in terms of resources. So they got to the point where they needed to uh reach out for help, but they weren't necessarily too fond of America, but it's not like the the communists or the Soviets were going to really let them practice their own religion as well. So now we've got the Soviet Union that was looking to get involved in the Middle East, so again, we gotta stop the spread of communism. So it comes full circle, right?

SPEAKER_03 19:49

Yay.

Ed 19:50

How the heck do you figure this out?

Kara 19:55

Stop communism, that's how we do it.

Ed 19:57

Well, yes, yeah, just just write that on a piece of paper, that's it, and you're you're good to go.

Kara 20:04

Put it on the sticky note, yeah.

Ed 20:06

Things to do today, stop communism. Perfect. Well, how did Reagan navigate this? And uh, well, the answer to this isn't what you would think, but basically put Reagan displayed dumb. Now, this brings us to part four killing two birds with hundreds of rockets and lots and lots of lies. Cool. So, yeah, that I had fun making that title because I how do I summarize all of part four here? Because part four here is where we are going to see Reagan's uh Reagan and the Reagan administration really blur the lines of the law, really blur ethics, you know, just all the things they really were throwing, yeah, they were throwing everything into the wind here. And truth be told, say what you want about Reagan or any president for that matter. Uh, you gotta be smart. Like, agree or disagree with their policies and all that stuff, you can't be an idiot and be a president most of the time. Uh, not to get too political here, but I I feel like we've had smarter presidents in the past than you know, present company. But still, um, at the end of the day, if you're an idiot, if you're too heavily swayed by um very, very small or weak arguments, I don't think you're one even going to make it into the Oval Office, or if you do, it's just gonna be a rough, rough four years. And uh there's his there's presidents in the past where they were like a one term president, they got in, they realized it sucks, and they're like route.

Kara 21:49

And honestly, that's understandable. Like, you know, you think you're gonna really like this thing, you get in there and you go, ah, crap, this was a mistake.

Ed 21:58

It is a phenomenon. Called the Valley of Despair.

Kara 22:02

There you go. It's a thing.

Ed 22:03

Uh, the phenomenon goes like this. Uh, Gabe would actually know this because he's been studying economics. It's actual economic principles. When you start something new, like the passion for it is super high, right? We did this when we first started the podcast, right? We got like when we were first starting out, we were slamming out episodes like crazy and uh having having a blast doing it. And then what happens is then it's like, oh man, okay, this podcasting thing takes a bit of time, takes a bit of effort, uh, especially for me, because I have to like internalize everything and I have to study every little nuance of it. You were just like, I'm cool with my $30 mic, and uh yeah, I'm I'm I'm set.

Kara 22:48

But for me, I take my research very seriously, sir.

Ed 22:51

Yes, yes, yeah. The the research was very, very hardcore, but when it came to like all the technical stuff, oh yeah, you were yeah, you're like, yeah, whatever. You're like, I I enjoy that you enjoyed, Ed.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

Now let me read this cool thing and write about it. That's all I want to do.

Ed 23:13

Yeah, yeah. Whereas I I kind of went down this path of like, I want to get the audio better, I want to get everything better, and that's where in like the passion kind of declines, and there's that valley of despair, meaning like crap, this is a lot of work, and like that's like the end of the honeymoon phase. And then, like, eventually, if you can get through that valley of despair, then things become a lot easier, you find a lot of purpose in it, a lot of satisfaction, all that stuff. And I think being president of the United States is no different. You're gonna start off, yeah, like, oh man, I'm president. Not a lot of people get to say they are one, and uh, you're gonna do all this stuff, and then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, uh, Congress steps in, and the Supreme Court is stepping in, and and the news agencies are stepping in, and it kind of takes the wind out of the sails. So I really wouldn't blame any president that would get in and be like, after the first year, like, man, this sucks. So uh Ronald Reagan kind of had to go through the same thing here. Uh, he was very, very intelligent, and that doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna do the right thing with your intelligence, because like, I mean, look at Hitler. Hitler was a really, really, really smart dude. Look how that turned out. Just because you're smart doesn't mean you're gonna do the right thing, it just means that you're applying your intelligence in in in all in particular ways.

Kara 24:42

Uh yes, yeah.

Ed 24:44

Like, how are you gonna prioritize your intelligence? Is probably the best way to put it.

Kara 24:50

With great power comes great responsibility.

Ed 24:53

Or a lot of hate.

Kara 24:56

I prefer responsibility.

Ed 24:57

Yes, but Hitler was also a very responsible guy. Anyway, again, it's it it boils down to what did he do with his intelligence, and uh, I don't think anybody of right mind would be like, yeah, he really put his intelligence to good use. No, yeah, that's not gonna end well for you. You're gonna get canceled pretty quickly. But Reagan was a brilliant communicator, and that that was that was like how he was known as the great communicator. Um he was also an experienced Hollywood actor. So when you saw Reagan in the Oval Office, when you saw him on television or whatever, you were seeing exactly what he wanted you to see. That's a very, very, very important piece to this whole uh Iran Contra fiasco. Everything he said, everything he did had a purpose behind it. When it came to the Iran-Contra thing, because it was starting to come to a head, uh he was getting people like family members of these hostages were kind of like blowing them up, figuratively speaking, on like news conferences and public appearances and whatnot. Like they were coming out and speaking up, like, hey, what is your plan to get my brother back or my uncle or my dad or whatever? Like, what's going on here? What what are your priorities? So Reagan had to do things in a very, very specific way that I think is pretty clever, even though it it probably wasn't the most ethical thing. So the first step here was Reagan was smart enough to surround himself with people who weren't, they didn't necessarily have to be like the top person for the job. Okay. That wasn't uh the main requirement. The main requirement that he wanted was hey, if we're gonna be in whatever position, uh, I first want you to be the person that will really take ownership of it and do whatever you feel is the right thing to do to achieve my goals as president. So he did. He surrounded himself with a lot of people that legitimately didn't want to let him down.

Kara 27:17

Okay.

Ed 27:17

And it's not because like Reagan would destroy your career or anything like that. Um, he really wasn't that kind of a president. He was one of those guys that like you know, like whenever you like disappointed your parent and they just look at you with that that silent.

Kara 27:34

I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed.

Ed 27:37

Disappointed, yeah. And and you feel like you're about an inch tall, just like, oh, yeah. That's that that's kind of how Reagan worked. He he didn't flip his lid too many times, uh, but yeah, he surrounded himself with a lot of people that were like, Okay, Mr. President, I don't want to let you down, right? I'm gonna do whatever I can to do it right. And here's the thing Reagan gave them complete autonomy. He he the people that he put in all these different places, he he gave them like complete autonomy. Uh, do what you need to do, right? Here is our problem. We all agree this is a problem. Yes, yes, yes. Cool. All right, do what you gotta do to solve the problem. Which, okay, that doesn't sound like a half-bad boss. Again, Reagan did that on purpose, and he did it this way for a very, very specific reason, which we'll get to at the end here. One of the guys that Reagan relied heavily on was his national security advisor, Robert Bud McFarlane. I just refer him to him as McFarlane. I I don't like the name Bud. It's just Bud. Yeah, it's just Hey Bud. It's a Bud. Like, I can't take anybody named Bud seriously.

Kara 28:50

Yeah, that's fair.

Ed 28:51

Um, but I also too, I when I was writing notes for this and I got down like uh to like the final pages, I noticed that with McFarlane, sometimes I'll put in his first name and uh I replaced Robert with Seth.

Kara 29:05

Oh, that's funny.

Ed 29:06

Yeah, like no, no, that's a vastly different guy than just Robert McFarland.

Kara 29:11

Very different human. Um years apart.

Ed 29:15

Everything is different. So then I had to go back and fix all that because we do post our uh our notes. Uh yeah, you go to our website and you look up our uh our episodes. Kara and I put all our our notes, like our our our outlines on there, so that you can see our sources, you can see how I'm very lackadaisical when it comes to citing my sources. I just put the link down, and Kara's more like it's Chicago, right? Yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah, so like Kara is very Chicago, very formal, all that kind of stuff. I think she just mainly does it for practice, right?

Kara 29:51

I do it for practice, and because um I don't know if I said this last episode on on the pod or not, but whenever I listen to a podcast and I think, oh, that's really interesting, I want to read more about that. Where did they get that information? Where'd they get that source? And then I go to the website and it's not there or whatever, I can't find it. I get I get disappointed because I wanted to read it. So it's more like, well, maybe if I'm the nerd who goes and looks for sources, I'm sure there's another one out there somewhere.

Ed 30:22

So yeah, we got Bud McFarlane here. He was selected by Reagan for the uh for the position in 1983 after he had a long military career. He served two terms, two terms, two tours in Vietnam uh as an artillery officer. Uh, artillery officers in Vietnam were very, very busy people. Like his artillery was like the American shield during these battles. It like Americans were so accurate with these howitzers that they could launch a shell five miles away and drop it within a few inches of the enemy. Wild stuff. So he had a lot of experience in very, very stressful situations. Um, he has a lot of leadership experience after Vietnam. He did work for the federal government in various capacities. After he left the military, he was appointed the national security advisor, uh, where he was assigned to the Middle East for the Israeli Arab negotiations. So McFarlane is going to be the guy that has to handle the Iran part of the Iran Contra scandal. Good guy.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

Cool.

Ed 31:32

Yes. He's also the kind of person he was very like guilt-ridden, like oh, from the war. Yeah, you'll you'll see. He's uh he he's a very emotional aspect of this this whole thing. Like he blames himself a lot for everything. So so yeah, he would he represents the Iran part of the Iran contra scandal, and um he was basically told by Reagan in 1984 to like get those hostages out, do whatever you gotta do to get those hostages out of Beirut. Okay. Now, like, here's the thing: he is a national security advisor. His job is to advise, not implement.

Kara 32:20

Right.

Ed 32:21

That's what we have the CIA for, correct? Right? Right. So McFarlane got chosen specifically him for this, what what we're gonna get into here, because I think something was asked of him that was really, really outside of his uh I don't want to say pay grade, but his job description. Okay, yeah, again, all done on purpose here. So while racking his brains to figure out what he was going to do to get the hostages out of out of the whole Middle East, Israeli intermediaries proposed the idea of America selling weapons to specific factions of Iran to gain favor and help rescue the hostages.

Kara 33:05

Clever wording, clever girl.

Ed 33:09

Yeah, it it to me it's just like how does this conversation even start? Like, does it is it a memo? Is it a phone call? Like, and I also find it interesting how it was Israeli intermediaries that this kind of like popped out of nowhere and be like, hey bro, I think we can help out your hostage situation, which is strange because McFarland didn't really advertise all that much that he was dealing with the hostage situation because he was an advisor. So I tried to do some more research into these Israeli intermediaries because it just seems a little sketchy to me. Like, I feel like everything with the Cold War, it's like turtles all the way down. You know, there's just one faction after another after another after another, and you don't really understand who's really in charge anymore. So, like, yeah, it's a very weird thing. But the idea was hey dude, like let's uh let's sell weapons to Iran, and maybe we can get Iran's good side, and then maybe Iran will speak to Hezbollah to release our so uh McFarlane, like Reagan, was worried about the perpetual spread of communism across the world, and an idea began to inform in his head about negotiating with Iran to not just let the hostages be released, but also maybe build a partnership with Iran. And the idea was this the Soviets were looking to get involved in the Middle East again, and uh, because something about all that oil that everybody wants. Um, and there was so you get the Soviets knocking on the Middle East door, and then you've got Iraq, which was attacking Iran, and uh Iran was getting desperate for weaponry. So you've got this country that needs to fight a physical war, a kinetic war, and then you've got two massive superpowers outside of it that are like, hey, we can help you out. Right. And it's in Iran is like, well, who do we want to really deal with? So McFarlane kind of had this really lofty dream of not only getting the hostages released, but creating an environment in the Middle East where the Soviets uh would be discouraged to even get involved anymore with the region. And uh, like I think he had aspirations of like Nobel Peace Prizes and wow, you know, just like yeah, he really was thinking this through. Like he may have kind of drawn the outcome a little prematurely.

Kara 35:48

Go bigger, go home, baby.

Ed 35:51

I guess, yeah. It's just yeah, man. He was definitely getting a little ahead of himself here. In the short term, though, getting the hostages released from captivity in Beirut would be a huge win, not only for McFarlane and like his career, but for the president. And after all, McFarlane's goal is to make the president successful because nobody wants that I'm not angry, I'm just disappointed look from Reagan.

SPEAKER_03 36:20

Right.

Ed 36:20

In mid-July 1985, Reagan had cancer surgery, you know, as you do.

Kara 36:26

I mean, like you do.

Ed 36:27

That's at the time he was like, Yeah, oh yeah, just you know, just cancer thingies. Um, you notice they did not, or he I don't think they used the Theric 25 machine on him.

Kara 36:39

So I don't know the answer to that.

Ed 36:42

Uh yeah. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot to that question, but yeah, we we actually have an episode on the Therek 25 machine not working right. And uh yeah, that was a little dumpster fire in its own right. So we'll yeah, we'll have a link to that in the uh in the show notes. I promise I don't go back on my promises on show notes. Better keep it right. I'll have like one person yelling at me. Um Reagan, you know, some people take a vacation, other people just get surgeries. So he was in the hospital, uh recovering from cancer surgery, and the dude was surrounded by his cabinet. Like the the his cabinet would not leave him alone for anything. So it's just like instead of the Oval Office, it was like the Oval recovery room. And for days, McFarland tried to get an audience with Reagan, and it was getting really frustrating because McFarlane's like, dude, what am I even doing? Like, I'm not getting anywhere with these people. Like the cabinet doesn't even listen to me. And for the most part, he was right. The cabinet nor the president really didn't take him all that seriously. So, like, eventually he started talking to Reagan about okay, here's my plan. This is what I want to do. And then Reagan cuts him off. Reagan's like, I don't even need to hear the plan, you go do it, man. I I have faith in you. You will get these these hostages out. Do whatever you gotta do.

Kara 38:02

You do you, bro.

Ed 38:03

Yeah, exactly. It's like, do you don't you want to like sign off on the plan first? Is it no? I trust you, do what you gotta do. Interesting. Okay, so yeah, homeboy got like uh yeah, got like a free pass to just do whatever he needed to do. All right, as an advisor, right?

Kara 38:22

Like, okay.

Ed 38:25

So that was all McFarland needed, and he arranged to communicate with an unscrupulous arms deal deal dealer by the name of Manushar Gorbonafar. Gorbonafar claimed that he had like the ear of Iran's uh high-ranking leadership, and Gorbonafar was like, hey man, I can I can get you to the right people to get these hostages released. Gorbonafar would work on releasing the hostages, and uh in return the US would provide 100 anti-tank missiles. Okay, and uh so now we are starting to uh starting to make things happen now, moving some things around, making deals, an advisor. Correct, now making arms deals with Iran, which really wasn't viewed as an ally or friendly to America, yeah. But hey, McFarland did his due diligence and he presented it to uh Reagan, and Reagan's like, wow, that sounds like a good deal. Let's uh let's do it. Just keep the details to yourself. I don't want to know anything about this. Now enter the second person in this whole fiasco, Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North. Uh Oliver North had a long military career himself, you know, highly decorated, competent guy, but this guy had loftier ideas of success and uh what it would mean for Reagan. So like Oliver was a lot like uh McFarlane in that, like, man, I really, really want to like make the president successful because I don't want to let him down. And the big difference between McFarland and Oliver, Mr. North, I should say, was that like North was really really involved with the Contra issues in Nicaragua.

Kara 40:29

Cool. All right, so we got one one guy in charge of Iran who's an advisor, and another guy in charge of Nicaragua, who's an advisor.

Ed 40:41

Uh yeah.

Kara 40:42

This is good. Oh, good. Okay, okay. I just think that's a good idea.

Ed 40:49

I I can't remember exactly what the guy's title was, but yeah, he was heavily uh interested in helping the Contras when Congress said, no, you can't help the Contras.

Kara 41:00

And they're both going for the peace prize, apparently.

Ed 41:02

Uh yeah, by selling selling uh weapons. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. Hostile countries, yeah. Um, so North also took the idea of success at all costs, um, and he probably took it a little too far. By August 15th, 1985, uh, North had a snag trying to get missiles into Iran by international authorities. So basically, North was like, hey McFarland, I can help you get weapons into Iran. I know people, like I know people in the CIA. And in the process of trying to get these initial orders out of these missiles, the international authorities were like, What are you doing with a hundred missiles in a military plane? Like, why are you going to Iran?

Kara 41:50

Honestly, I don't blame them for asking the question.

Ed 41:53

Uh, yeah. Yeah, it just it just screamed sketchy. Yeah, they basically told him, like, sorry, you can't no, you're you're not doing this. You're not under a military plane, you're not transporting these into Iran. That's just too sketchy. Yeah, it's one of those things that would get you in the newspaper for all the wrong reasons. So North was undeterred, and he called up his friends in the CIA who were they were a little upset as well that there was hostages in um being held by Hetzbala. In fact, one of those hostages was a guy by the name of William Buckley, who was like a CIA chief and had passed away in June due to the torturing of the Hezbollah terrorists. So, like one of the uh CIA's like top leaders was a terrorist who was tortured to death. Uh, the CIA was like, Okay, you need fine, you want to get 100 missiles into Iran, and Iran can help you get these hostages freed. Fine, whatever, we'll make it work. And they have they have the signatures necessary to move that kind of armament around without people asking questions.

Kara 43:03

Okay.

Ed 43:04

That is just wild to me to think about. Like, you have that you have that much sway over international stuff. It's cold war that like the CIA can just write on a piece of paper to international authorities, like, yeah, no, this is signed off for the CAA, you're good to go. No, no questions asked. Okay. That I don't know. That to me, that's called stupid power when you really think about it.

Kara 43:30

It's the it's the CIA, which was born out of the Cold War during the Cold War, so I'm not surprised.

Ed 43:37

Yeah, yeah, it was uh they they they had a purpose and they did it uh very well. They probably were so good at what they did, it was at times probably detriment. So there are some CIA stories from the Cold War that I wouldn't mind doing some episodes on because, dude, when the CIA, when something goes wrong with the CIA, it is epic. I can imagine it doesn't happen often, but boy, when it does go bad, hold on to your butts because it's uh it gets scary. So the only problem with this little plan that like McFarland contracted North, who was more invested with military operations in Nicaragua, who then reached out to the CIA to get anti-tank missiles delivered into a hostile country to America, like Iran, who would quote unquote maybe help free hostages in Beirut. Yeah, it's not it's just getting a little out of control here. And this is just the tip of the iceberg. And the problem is that now uh the CIA was involved, like they now have their signatures on the whole ordeal put together by two advisors. The administration could not negotiate with terrorists or assist them in any way to get the hostages out of captivity. And America lives literally doing all of that now, if you think about it. Uh America was giving resources to a hostile nation in return. The terrorists that were being supported by that hostile nation would then free the hostages.

Kara 45:28

Which means they were negotiating with terrorists.

Ed 45:32

Indirectly, yes. Cool. Um, in theory, they haven't really broken any laws, but it's not a hard jump. It really isn't a hard jump to be like, you're negotiating with terrorists after you said you weren't gonna do that. It gets a little crazier now because this Garbonafar guy, he's like working the situation. We later find out that he was actually working over the Americans and the Iranians at the same time.

Kara 45:59

Ooh, double crosser.

Ed 46:00

Yeah, this guy had like no scruples, he was not interested at all in doing the right thing.

Kara 46:05

All right.

Ed 46:06

North hit a little snag when they finally got the weapons over. Grabonafar changed the terms of the agreement at the last second, like literally. Oh yeah, yeah. And this should have been expected from Grabonafar. Uh, instead of 100 missiles, Iran now wanted 500. Oh, and instead of releasing all the hostages, only one was gonna be released. Wait, no, yeah, no, and I think it of Empire Strikes Back where Vader is like, like, I'm changing the terms of the agreement. Pray that I don't change them further. Yeah, I kind of get that vibe going on here. Yeah, Gorbonafar, yeah, we're gonna see. He he he really makes the whole situation much, much worse by like changing things and like he was selling weapons, like he was supposed to be getting weapons from the Americans to give to the Iranian government to go fight Iraq to try to keep the Soviet Union from getting involved, but he was like selling them to even Iran's enemies. Yeah, this this the Garbonafar guy he was in the thick of it in terms of uh arms dealing, getting himself into potential trouble. Yeah, so North didn't communicate any of this to McFarland. So, like, you know, the guy who was in charge of bringing the hostages, or it's okay, we don't need to keep him in the loop, right? Because now North saw an opportunity, regardless of the terms. North agreed to uh Garbonafara's demands. Oh, and North delivered the goods before any of the hostages or hostage was released, which is like 100% against McFarland's directions. The directions were simple. You don't give them anything until we get our hostages back.

Kara 47:58

I feel like that's common sense, but yeah, okay, yep, and North was like, nah, man, I'm good.

Ed 48:07

Um, I'm gonna give them all these weapons, and uh yeah. And oh yeah, and boss, I'm keeping you out of the loop. You don't need to worry about this.

Kara 48:17

Cool, perfect.

Ed 48:20

So when McFarlane found out about all this, uh, that like North was kind of going rogue, uh, he was super pissed off, but yet he blamed himself for not handling things better. Like McFarlane blamed himself for a lot of things. Uh North did have some good news though. Out of the whole arrangement, North was able to get about $800,000 from Iran, right? So sure, like we got to give him 500 missiles, um, and we're not getting any hostages except for maybe one, but Iran is gonna give us $800,000.

Kara 48:53

Wow.

Ed 48:55

Well, the way that North was seeing it, North could use the $800,000 to fund the Contras in Nicaragua because the Contras needed mainly financial support, right? So they pay their soldiers to pay for guns and all that kind of stuff. So it's like America wasn't supporting the Contras in terms of giving them weaponry. Uh here was like money, even though the amend was like you can't give them anything. But North saw this as a great opportunity. Like, hey, we just collected a bunch of like dark money, meaning untraceable. Who who cares where it came from? Therefore, it's really easy to just kind of wire that over to the Contras. And um, yeah, we're we're we're taking care of two of Reagan's major issues via a bunch of rockets and a bunch of lies. Cool. This dumpster is getting loaded here. We're just we're just pulling it on. So yeah, and and and North was like, well, hey, at the end of the day, I work for the president and um I'm going to help the president deal with the whole contra issue uh very underhanded, very discreetly, and all that stuff. The only problem was that the Reagan administration was completely blocked by Congress to provide any aid, whether financial, personnel, and or weaponry. Right. That was like taken straight from the amendment. So now Reagan's cabinet and the CAA are super involved with negotiating with terrorists to broker a deal to free the hostages, and any money that was derived from said trade deals would go to the Contras in Nicaragua to help support their efforts against the Sandinistas when America wasn't allowed to help them in any way.

Kara 50:52

You know that swallow the fly song we were talking about last time. That's what this feels like.

Ed 51:01

Like, how is this not gonna go horribly awry?

Kara 51:06

Like deals gone wrong.

Ed 51:10

Uh well, it hasn't gone wrong yet. It's gonna take a plane crash to really light this dumpster on fire. So the administration was having to lie blatantly to pretty much anyone outside of the cabinet about what was going on. Media, like if the media got downwind of any of it, they just lied, swept it underneath the rug. If the arrangement ever broke loose, it would be a scandal worse than Watergate. Like, this would be straight up on the grounds of impeachment.

SPEAKER_03 51:45

Yeah.

Ed 51:46

Because the president even signed this amendment into law, and like this is the president knowingly breaking the law that he helped establish. Correct. It's bad luck, man. That's just a bad spot to be in. So again, I I mean, well, not again, but I look at this and I'm like, I'm so glad I'm not in this situation. Me too. That's one of the things I've really taken away from the day Semster Fire is just like, it doesn't matter how bad of a day you had, there's people in history that got it way worse than I do at the moment. And then how do you even go to bed at night knowing that you're not only committing one but two impeachable infractions?

Kara 52:34

I don't know, man. That's crazy.

Ed 52:36

Yeah, yeah, it's uh it's a good time for everybody. Yeah, by Thanksgiving of 1985, Robert McFarlane uh was so riddled with guilt about how this whole operation was going down as it was violating pretty much everything. Uh McFarlane handed his resignation to Reagan, and just like that, McFarlane was out because like Reagan took it, right? Like, okay, you're resigning? Cool. I guess somebody else to put in. And and I think McFarlane was kind of secretly hoping that the president would kind of beg a little bit to be like, oh no, man, like stay in. Like, we really need you here. You know, be a team player, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And uh, Reagan was like, okay, yeah, yeah, like, no, yeah, well, what can I do to keep you here? Meanwhile, Reagan in reality is like, well, there's the door. Don't don't let it hit you on the way out. Yeah. And uh that kind of messed with McFarland for a little bit. But we are now going to be introduced to the epitome of an admiral here, a navy admiral by the name of John Poindexter. Sweet. I I for some odd reason, if somebody came up to me and asked me, like, what profession do you think a person by the name of John Poindexter would have? I think Admiral would be at like top three or four. Really? There's just something about being named Poindexter that screams Navy. I don't know why.

Kara 54:11

I guess due to my exposure to too many movies and TV shows. I think Poindexter, I think of a pocket protector, a calculator watch, and really thick glasses.

Ed 54:25

Yeah, like a revenge of the nerds type of thing.

Kara 54:27

Yes, but again, that's just American movie culture in my brain telling me that's a good idea.

Ed 54:33

Yeah, this is this is how America sees the world via movies. Yep. So but yeah, Poindexter replaced McFarlane as national security advisor, and then Oliver North was put in second command as an advisor.

Kara 54:51

Highlight underscore circle it a few times. Advisor.

Ed 54:55

Yeah, like we're gonna turn the word advisor into a drinking game. In a meeting with Reagan, uh, concerns about how the administration was violating all sorts of laws left and right came up. Reagan offered a different idea. He's like, we aren't trading weapons with terrorists to free the hostages. Instead, we are working with moderate leaning Iranian officials to gain favor with the Iranian government and build a stronger relationship. That's all we're doing. We're not actually talking to the terrorists, right? We're we're trying to work with the remaining group of people in the Iranian government that are like pro-America. That's actually not a half-bad way of looking at it. The problem is that it was still violating all sorts of laws. Right. If Iran was able to put pressure on Hezbollah to release the hostages, then that's a nice little cherry on top, the way that Reagan was looking at it. It's like, we're not talking to them, right? The Iranian government is, and if that just so happens to get the uh hostages freed, cool. You know, we'll roll with it. Poindexter and North also added that they were going to keep selling weapons to these moderate Iranian military leaders, because you know that's what advisors do, um at over inflated prices. And then the proceeds would go to helping the Contras in Nicaragua. Because here's the thing the American government can't give any money or support to the Contras, but this money isn't coming from America, it's coming from Iran, and it's being wired straight to the Contras. Nice. Can you see how like um how nuanced this is all getting? Oh, yes. This is like American politics at its finest. This is yeah, America. Somehow, this made everything kosher in the administration's view of the law, and Reagan kept telling his crew to keep doing whatever it was was necessary to free the hostages.

Kara 57:12

Cool. Great. So no feedback, no criticism.

Ed 57:17

Yeah, hey man, you're doing great. Just keep doing what you're doing.

Kara 57:21

Therefore, I can say, I don't know what happened, and you can take the poll. Thank you, bye.

Ed 57:27

I think you're starting to catch on here to why Reagan served two terms and was regaled as one of America's most beloved presidents.

Kara 57:39

One of them, you know.

Ed 57:41

Yeah.

Kara 57:42

I I do study history.

Ed 57:45

So yes, you do, and like ten other people in America do.

Kara 57:50

Yeah.

Ed 57:51

Not in the 1980s. So between August of 1985 and November of 1986, a total of eight weapons trades took place, with over 2,770 missiles and spare parts being handed over to the Iranian government. In return, the US received $30 million to help the Contras. Cool. And three hostages were ever returned. Wow. But there was like at this time, I think there were seven or eight of them left out of the original 25. Uh, a couple of them died. Um, so like it I don't know, like, was it worth it for these three hostages? Because there was four remaining, but then Hetzbull acquired like three or more replacements. So like cool.

Kara 58:49

I don't think this is working.

Ed 58:52

No, it's uh yeah, it it I I if it is working, I don't know how. If like the terrorists are still taking hostages, but technically speaking, three of them got released. So only cool.

Kara 59:11

Like what kind of I don't know.

Ed 59:13

And remember, uh it was supposed to be all hostages were supposed to be released with the 100 anti-tank missiles. Like that was supposed to be the deal.

Kara 59:25

Now we're 2700 plus with only three hostages. And 30 million dollars, and 30 mil, we can't forget that.

Ed 59:35

Yeah. Which makes me wonder how did Iran even come up with 30 million dollars? Because I think that would be like over a hundred million dollars by today's standards or by with inflation and everything. I thought they were in really, really dire straits with Iraq and that war.

Kara 59:53

And so it makes me wonder how did the economy is structured. I don't know.

Ed 59:58

Yeah, yeah, it's very uh very efficient. It's almost like there was money laundering going on, but I don't know enough to really uh elaborate on that anymore. But you know, just kind of keep that in the back of your head for maybe someday down the road when uh the government actually releases paper that isn't completely redacted. Have you ever seen some of those pages that the government releases to the public? It's like a whole page of like this top secret document because of the Freedom of Information Act, you know, they released to the public, and there's like two words that aren't usually in the yeah, like yeah, a conjunction and then an identifier. Yeah, like that's it.

Kara 1:00:46

Or an article, just throw an A in there.

Ed 1:00:49

Cool, yeah. It's like while I do know that this blacked out line was probably a sentence because it ended with a period. Perfect.

Kara 1:01:00

That's all we need to know.

Ed 1:01:02

Yeah, all righty. Now we're at part five. I had a lot of fun naming this one.

Kara 1:01:09

I do like the part five.

Ed 1:01:11

What are you gonna do now, Rambo?

Kara 1:01:14

I like that. That's a good one.

Ed 1:01:17

Now I was really kind of uh I don't want to say upset, but I was like, dang, I really wanted to get to this part in the last episode, but we just ran out of time. And the main reason is because I really, really wanted to say this guy's name. So October 15th, 1986, Marine Eugene Hassenfuss. Sorry, that's just that's just such a unique name. I I you just have fun saying Hassenfuss. Like it just rolls off of yeah, it's just like could you imagine like him and in like boot camp? Hassenfuss front and center. I think they may even just called him fuss.

Kara 1:01:56

That'd he that's even better.

Ed 1:01:58

Yeah, fuss, get over here. Um so yeah, Eugene Hassenfuss was flying in a Fairchild C-123 cargo plane uh that was promptly shot down by Sandinista military in Nicaragua in the middle of the night. Cool. Uh Hasenfuss was a part of a crew that he was the only one that had a parachute that somebody from his military base gave him prior. That was interesting. Uh he was the only person on the plane that survived because, well, parachute.

Kara 1:02:35

Parachute, yeah.

Ed 1:02:36

Mm-hmm. And the other members of this crew flying a Fairchild C 123 cargo plane uh weren't necessarily American. And uh they also knew what would have happened if their plane never got shot down and they survived. I think the other crew members were like, we would rather die than be taken by the Sandinistas. But Hassan Fuss was here's your parachute. Go get him, Tiger. You got this.

Kara 1:03:09

It's a very main character movie guy. Sounds like an action guy.

Ed 1:03:14

Yeah, yeah. Hastenfuss jumped out of a burning plane just in time to engage his parachute and land in the jungle. Nice trying to avoid capture in the middle of the night and not get eaten by woodland creatures. Hasten Fuss used his parachute as like a hammock uh in the trees to keep or try to like sleep. Okay, like, yep, he's in the middle of the Nicaraguan forest. Uh, there's a lot of kami sandinistas looking for any survivors. Um, and bro, he's just trying to take a nap.

Kara 1:03:46

And I must have been tired.

Ed 1:03:50

I hey man, yeah, that sleep's important. Yeah, yeah.

Kara 1:03:54

I'm I support it.

Ed 1:03:57

So Hasan Fuss woke up in the morning and he felt something cold on his forehead. That's what woke him up because as he opened his eyes, there was a Sandinista militant with a rifle barrel pointed at his forehead. Crap. All right, Hasanfuss soon discovered that he was surrounded by similar-looking men with rifles pointed at him as well. The one who appeared to be in charge simply asked, What are you going to do now, Rambo?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:26

Cool.

Ed 1:04:26

Hasanfuss was taken prisoner by the Sandinistas and interrogated heavily to answer a rather specific question. And uh, pretty straightforward question, I think. Why was an American crew flying an American cargo plane over Nicaragua, which was close to American planes, didn't have airspace rights in the middle of the night with a cargo hold of tens of thousands of AK-47 rounds and cases of spare parts for AK-47s, as well as other weapons, and was heading to a known contra holdout in the countryside?

Kara 1:05:07

Fair question.

Ed 1:05:09

Yeah. Okay, American guy. What's up with all this? Because as the plane was shot down, I guess it was just like raining bullets. This bullets were just yeah. It's like a one of those weird biblical rains, so like, oh yeah, rain blood or rain cicadas or whatever. Nah, in Nicaragua, it rains AK-47 rounds. Oh, yeah. That's how they knew what that was on there, not to mention all the bits and pieces of uh AK 47 uh parts and whatnot.

Kara 1:05:44

Yeah, makes sense.

Ed 1:05:45

And they were looking at the plane, and they're the Sandinistas were like, you know what? That plane, that very American plane, is heading straight for a Contra Hold app. Hmm. That's let's shoot it down. Yeah. So all Hossamp Fuss, God love that name, could do is tell the Sandinistas that the plane and cargo was owned by the CAA, and he was returning from dropping supplies off to CIA operatives in Southeast Asia when it was shot down, and the CIA approved the flight path.

Kara 1:06:20

Okay.

Ed 1:06:21

Uh do we know where Nicaragua is?

Kara 1:06:24

Yeah, it's not in Southeast Asia. No.

Ed 1:06:28

So that's kind of a weird lie, but so Homeboy was returning from a milk delivery, I guess, in Southeast Asia when it got shot down. Now, I do find it kind of funny. It's like it's a really stupid lie because, like, if you're delivering stuff to CIA operatives in Southeast Asia, what are you doing with like if you're supposed to be delivering these rounds to the CIA, what are you doing with this with the uh AK-47 rounds while you're heading back to America?

Kara 1:07:01

Yeah, it doesn't make sense.

Ed 1:07:03

It's one of those things like I can just envision like the interrogators just looking at each other like is this dude for real? I thought Americans were supposed to be like super tough and smart and stuff. So needless to say, House and Fuss was antipickle. The Sandinistas weren't buying this story, which was shocking. Like, what do you mean the Sandinistas weren't buying the story? It makes total sense. It's the best piece of truth I've ever heard Yeah, the truth doesn't truth much more. Yeah. Like this is the truthiest truth that truth could ever truthfully tell.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:49

I like it.

Ed 1:07:51

So yeah, I'm I was blown away by that when I read that. Uh it was just like, oh my god. The Sandinisters are not very trusting people.

Kara 1:08:02

I know. A shame.

Ed 1:08:04

There's just something about being a communist regime and trust doesn't go hand in hand. Just watch uh Chernobyl on HBO and you'll see what I mean. Um so what did the Sandinistas do? Well, they had Hasenfuss give a press conference in Nicaragua for the sole benefit of the American people. And boy, did the American news agencies have a heyday.

Kara 1:08:29

Oh, I have this.

Ed 1:08:31

Because, like, why? Because the news agencies were asking the same exact questions that the interrogators were asking. Why was an American in an American plane full of AK-47 rounds and AK-47 spare parts flying over Nicaragua in the middle of the night, heading towards a Contra holdout?

Kara 1:08:51

Again, fair question.

Ed 1:08:55

So, like the news media ran with it, and then like it didn't take long for the American public to connect all the dots to the Reagan administration's involvement with Iran and brokering deals with terrorists to free hostages. This is this is bad. Like, this is so bad on so many levels. Like, okay. We are now in damage control. That's all you can do if you were the president at this time. It's just damage control. But Reagan knew exactly what he was doing, which I will get to. And I gotta do it pretty fast because I gotta pee. Um, where did I leave off? Um okay. Okay, by November of 1986, when I was reading this, I kept wanting to say 1886. Like, don't you hate it when your C 130 or C-123 cargo plane and 1886 goes down? Man, they just didn't.

Kara 1:10:04

It's it's hard, man.

Ed 1:10:05

I guess they gotta the 1870s was like the prime time for the C 123 cargo planes.

Kara 1:10:13

So cheap, cheap made cheaply made.

Ed 1:10:16

Yeah, yeah, they really cut back budget cuts made in China.

Kara 1:10:21

Awful. They got it on Timu, sure.

Ed 1:10:24

Yeah, yeah, there we go. Yeah, you you just couldn't buy stuff off the internet like you used to in 1886. So by 1986, the Reagan administration was neck deep in a quagmire of journalists and investigators who quickly and accurately pieced together why that cargo plane was flying over Nicaragua in the middle of the night carrying AK-47 rounds and AK-47 spare parts. Reagan's administration didn't receive any sort of relief when the Lebanese news broke uh Lebanese newspaper, the Ashera.

Kara 1:11:04

Okay.

Ed 1:11:05

Shra.

Kara 1:11:07

I think it's shera. I think you got it the first time.

Ed 1:11:11

Yeah, there's no H at the end of it, so I didn't know if that's how you pronounce it, but hey. It's all good. Ashra. Ah. God, I'm tired. Um I know you're like slapping yourself over there trying to stay awake. I know, I'm trying. Yeah, we're we're almost done here. Sort of. But anyways. So the Lebanese newspaper Ashra published a story about a massive intelligence leak that involved unnamed American figures working with the Iranian government to sell them weaponry in return for money and the promise to free American hostages. Gets better and better, man. The cat was out of the bag now. It was actually, no, this wasn't a bag with a cat in it. This was a bag or a pillowcase full of cats.

Kara 1:12:08

Right.

Ed 1:12:09

That that's that's what this yeah.

Kara 1:12:13

Can of worms yeah, whatever you want to put it.

Ed 1:12:18

Yeah, yeah. It's um it's a mess. A dumpster fire. Yeah, yeah. This is this is where dumpster and fire are now one and the same.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:30

There you go.

Ed 1:12:31

Most Americans aren't that surprised that the hypocrisy is a uh is a part of federal day-to-day dealings. Like, that's just how it works. To this day, America is like, okay, yeah, whatever. We know it's you're doing shady arms deals and whatnot. Like, I most Americans are understanding of that. They don't necessarily agree with it, but they're like, yeah, it's just what the government does. What most Americans were shocked, though, they were shocked that Ronald Reagan was at the heart of these two egregious acts of political inauthenticity. And I did Google inauthenticity, that is actually a word.

Kara 1:13:13

Yes. Uh I know. You're good.

Ed 1:13:16

Reagan won the election by uh marketing his honesty integrity to the public. Uh, he wasn't a career politician that Washington, D.C. Um, he was he wasn't a career politician that Washington, D.C. was used to seeing. Okay. He was an outsider who promised to introduce integrity back into the White House. That was a that was like his thing. He's he's a direct talker, he's gonna lay it out for you. He's going to be honest with you, right? He's not a guy that's been in politics for 50-some odd years and can barely remember his name or not blue screen in the middle of a news conference, right? Like some other politicians out there that we know. That's what kind of took America by surprise was that like the Americans were discovering um that Reagan's administration was actively negotiating with terrorists to try to free hostages and using the money gained illegally from Iran. Keep in mind Iran was still viewed as like an enemy to America, but they were using that money to actively support the Contra movement in Nicaragua, which was strictly forbidden by Congress and even signed by Reagan himself. The scope of this sort of scandal makes the Watergate incident look like an unpaid parking ticket at a grocery store in comparison.

Kara 1:14:36

There was an old lady who swallowed a fly.

Ed 1:14:40

So the the degree upon which Poindexter and North and McFarland were involved would put them in federal prison for years, and it could ultimately end up with Ronald Reagan being impeached. Like, that's the path that this was quickly going down. Democrats were having a heyday with all this. Like, we're getting elected, we're getting elected. Like, you know, they saw this as like nice. This is our opportunity to secure the White House for like another eight years. Um, the dumpster fire was real, and I'm having a tough time finding the words that best describe the Zapoo's show that the Reagan administration was in. So hopefully you get the idea of how bad this is. Had to be implemented articulately and effectively. There is only one person who could take on such a dumpster fire and try to put it out. Who could that person be? Well, on November 13th, Ronald Reagan delivered a live address from the White House. This was, you can find it on YouTube. It is a iconic piece of political, I don't know, um speech? Political Yeah, speech presentations, excuse giving. Right. Um, but yeah, I have a quote here from Reagan's speech where he stated, My purpose was to send a signal that the United States was prepared to replace the animosity between the US and Iran with a new relationship. At the same time, we undertook this initiative. We made clear that the Iran that Iran must oppose all forms of international terrorism as a condition of progress in our relationship. That the most significant step which Iran could take, we indicated, would be to use its influence in Lebanon to secure the release of all hostages held there. That's actually not a half bad way of putting it. Okay, I guess. A few days later, North was visited by uh congressional investigators at his office. Uh, he was told not to go anywhere or to do anything until they got there, right? They got to the front of wherever he was, he worked. Secretary called him, said, Hey, uh, there's some dudes in suits here that want to talk to you. Don't do anything, don't go anywhere, don't shred anything. Uh in 1989, North Secretary testified uh to Congress, or actually to the courts, that November 21st through 25th, she and North were in the office shredding document after document, trying to get rid of much evidence as possible. Burn it!

unknown 1:17:23

Burn it out.

Ed 1:17:26

So not only was a cat out of the bag in terms of the Iran negotiating with terrorist thing, uh, North was now trying to cover up the connection of Iran with the $30 million that he earmarked for the Contras. In spite of North's efforts, investigators were still able to find evidence confirming that $12 million of the $30 million generated by the sales made its way to the Contras. And at this point, North was screwed and he knew it. Like literally, they came in at his office and it only took him like 10 minutes. So, like, he shredded everything except for like a piece of paper on his desk. And the investigator is like, hey, Hank, take a look at this. It's this form signed by North and the CIA and the president and McFarland and Poindexter all agreeing to give weaponry to the terrorists. Like it was such a red flag. Like that would have been the first piece of paper I would have shredded, but hey.

Kara 1:18:26

He's in a hurry, I guess.

Ed 1:18:27

Uh yeah, like he's trying to get rid of all the boxes. Well, he should have done, he should have sent everything to Mar-a-Lago.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:33

Or burn it with fire.

Ed 1:18:34

No, no, no. The most secure place in the world is a uh a bathroom in Mar-a Lago, or burn it with fire. As of to what, burning it with water?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:43

Yes.

Ed 1:18:46

Just flush it down the toilet. See? Cover up over cover-up only got Poindexter, North, and McFarland in even more trouble. Ultimately, by the end of the 1980s, here's what happened to all three men. Poindexter in April 1990. So this the whole Contra thing started like it came to a head in 1986. The investigation lasted for like four years. Um, but yeah, in April 1990, Poindexter was tried and convicted of five felony counts, including conspiracy to obstruct official inquiries, obstructing Congress, and making false statements. He was sentenced to six months in prison.

Kara 1:19:22

Hard time.

Ed 1:19:23

And it's like white-collar prison.

Kara 1:19:25

Yeah, yeah, it's easy prison.

Ed 1:19:27

Like you'll probably have like a television and yeah. So I guess that's there's a perk to being a formal admiral. Now, uh, I did find this out a little while after I wrote these notes. Um, if you're like an admiral or a lieutenant colonel or whatever, retired, and you get busted for something like this or a felony, you lose your retirement benefits.

Kara 1:19:48

Yeah.

Ed 1:19:49

Like you lose, and if you're an admiral, you are probably sitting on a really healthy, like, military retirement plan. Yeah, the six-month thing is a bit of a joke, but his retirement now being evaporated, like, he might as well go work for Enron at this point.

Kara 1:20:06

Good choice.

Ed 1:20:07

Yeah, that's a we all know that turned out. Uh okay, North. In May 1989, a jury found North guilty of three felony counts, aiding and abetting the obstruction of Congress, altering, destroying of official National Security Council documents, and accepting an illegal gratuity. So that was in the form of a home security system. Which I feel like there's more to that story. I just didn't dive into it.

Kara 1:20:34

It is an interesting bribe.

Ed 1:20:36

Yes. Uh, he was sentenced to a suspended prison term of three years of probation, a $150,000 fine, and then 1,200 hours of community service.

unknown 1:20:49

Okay.

Ed 1:20:50

I feel like if you and I did this, Kara, we would be like executed.

Kara 1:20:54

Oh, with my luck, yeah.

Ed 1:20:56

We'd be thrown in jail for like 180 years.

Kara 1:21:00

Life plus.

Ed 1:21:01

Uh yeah. McFarlane, unlike Poindexter and North, McFarlane chose to cooperate with the independent counsel's investigation early on. And uh, yeah, he kind of ratted out of people. He's like, ah, you're not gonna break me. It was them, it was them. I saw them do it. Just literally how fast that happened. Uh, in March 1988, he pleaded guilty to four misdemeanor counts of withholding information from Congress regarding the administration's secret efforts to support the Contras.

Kara 1:21:30

All right.

Ed 1:21:30

So, okay. Um, there's actually uh you can watch the uh broadcast of North's uh like congressional present or presentation or whatever. Like North held to his guns. He's like, if I if I was gonna do this all over again, knowing where I'd end up now, I'd do it in a heartbeat, right? I'm supporting the president, I'm ending communism being spread around. I I'm doing my job. Like he he really doubled on on it. Meanwhile, McFarland's like, um, sorry, my bad. Uh I promise not to do it again. So it is important to note that none of these men actually really served any time or even had to pay anything. When George Bush Sr. lost his re-election attempt, so after Reagan, then it was Bush for four years, but then he lost his uh re-election attempt, and that's when Clinton came in. Um, Bush Sr., as he was a lame duck now, basically pardoned all three men in terms of their contributions to the whole Iran Contra affair. Both Poindexter and North were set loose as well, um, because the judge and prosecution didn't explain the accusations clearly enough to the jury, thus violating the Fifth Amendment and nullifying their crimes. And McFarlane was simply pardoned. Lovely. Yeah. Why Bush Sr. Well, during Reagan's time in office, Bush Sr. was his vice president and he was closely connected to everything.

Kara 1:22:58

Sounds right.

Ed 1:22:59

So now that these men have been pardoned, um, like they can't be charged again. You can't really you can't even use them as evidence for anything. So this was like Bush Sr.'s way of like making sure that nothing from the past would screw him over.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:16

Makes sense.

Ed 1:23:17

Yep. America. Okay, part six. How did Reagan get away with it? As mentioned above, Ronald Reagan was not stupid. Anyone is welcome to agree or disagree with his policies or his stances on a great deal of things. Totally legit, right? I love having conversations like this with people because I love to get their take on things, but he does deserve some credit for knowing how to pay, how to pay, how to play the politics game. Pay to play. It's very game to throne-y gamey of thrones.

Kara 1:23:51

Oh no, it's it's like thrones.

Ed 1:23:54

It's just like thrones. Yeah. Yes. Very, yeah, very, very throny. I think a major part in how Reagan navigated this mess was that he knew it was going to happen. So not only did he kind of be like, eh, maybe this could all blow up on our face. Yeah. But there was also like, uh, there's no way that this won't blow up on our face to some degree. So he knew it was going to happen to some extent. There is no way that administration that had two different related violations of congressional ethics and laws could keep it a secret for too long. Uh, the lid was going to fly off sooner than later, and it will happen at a very important time, like right around an election, for example. America is riddled with like if you look at when scandals happen or get reported on, it's always at very, very specific times. Like past issues would come up or um prior grievances would come out of the woodwork, like usually right around like an election or a government appointing or whatever. It just it this always magically comes out around that time. I also have a feeling that when Reagan was making those promises during the campaign, that he knew that achieving those objectives was going to be very hard. I think it was further solidified when he actually got elected and sat in of those security meetings where he got the true scope of how complicated things were. Remember, like if at the first episode here, like he could say anything he wanted, but he didn't have a security clearance. So he had no idea what was really involved. And he probably got out of that first meeting, like, oh, suddenly all the things that I said in the campaign trail, it's gonna be a lot harder to pull off than I thought. To help with this cause, Reagan surrounded himself with folks that had one thing in common, and that was a burning desire to not let the president down. Who cares if you're like a a cart collector at a grocery store? As long as you're in this position to not fail the president, that's like the number one requirement. Cool. How many times have we seen that at work? You know, you got people that are uh absolutely inept at what they're doing, however, they solely support and blindly follow their manager without question.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:23

Yeah, yeah.

Ed 1:26:24

We've seen this so many times. Usually that blows up in their faces.

Kara 1:26:29

Yeah.

Ed 1:26:30

Whenever you take a person with that level of commitment, and then you give them complete autonomy to do what they need to do, and that's the big thing is what they feel is important or what they need to do, you're going to create a situation where like anything is possible. The kicker is what happens when those subordinates overstep or take instructions from the boss a little too far.

Kara 1:26:55

Like carrying out CIA plans as an advisor.

Ed 1:26:58

Uh yeah. Okay. Or as an advisor, telling the CIA, hey, we need you to deliver this cache of missiles. Not like, hey, we advise you to do this. We're ordering you to do this.

Kara 1:27:11

Right. It's not a suggestion.

Ed 1:27:13

Yeah. Yeah. Yes, this isn't advice. This isn't like dating advice. This is the yeah, totally overstepping. And that is exactly what happened here. Reagan didn't let McFarland really flush out any of his ideas before giving him the go-ahead. Uh, all Reagan did was tell McFarlane that the ultimate goal was get those hostages freed, right? By any means possible. Reagan was always clear on that because who could argue that freeing the hostages wasn't worth doing? Like, nobody's ever gonna sit there and say, like, yeah, jerk, how dare you free those hostages? Like, nobody's gonna criticize that because they're American hostages, they need to be freed. So McFarland was given both the approval to proceed. With his plans before he could actually get them laid out, and filled him with a high moral high ground, you know, like Obi-Wan and Anakin. I have the high ground. Uh, filled him with a great deal of moral high ground to do what is right by most people. So that was kind of like the secret sauce there. Same thing with North. Hey man, this is what we need done. And then I need you to do whatever you need to do to get it done. And I give you like the moral blessing of a god to be like, hey man, you do what you gotta do because you are doing the right thing. You are saving lives.

Kara 1:28:39

That's how crusades start.

Ed 1:28:41

Uh yeah, yeah. A lot of things start and never end. To take it a step further, Reagan also did the same thing with North and Poindexter. Both guys wanted to achieve what they felt was the ethical thing to do, even if it meant breaking the law. This is the tricky part, is like you've got ethics and laws. Ethics state we gotta rescue these American hostages. The laws state that the way that you're doing it is illegal. And this is a perfect case where ethics and laws don't necessarily go hand in hand. Put that one in your back pocket. You know, just because your boss tells you something doesn't mean it's going to be right. And then what do you do to navigate that when you do conclude that, hey man, this is super sketchy. I don't feel comfortable doing this.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:31

Yeah.

Ed 1:29:32

Right? It's a it's a tricky thing. And the answer to that is the number 12.

Kara 1:29:38

Okay. Not 42, but 12.

Ed 1:29:40

Yeah, I know it's it's really 12. Okay. Um got it. Yeah, 42 is just too big. It's gotta be 12. So I don't know what unit. I don't I don't know anything else, but yep. Yep. Okay.

unknown 1:29:56

Okay.

Ed 1:29:57

But what about accountability for their actions? Well, this is where experience paves the way. All Reagan had to do was not let his subordinates tell him enough of their plans. So, like what you're like, you caught on earlier, Kara, so that he could simply claim that he had no idea of what exactly was going on. Yeah. Like plausible deniability.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:19

Yep.

Ed 1:30:19

So, yeah, I had no idea what they were doing. Or if I did know, it wasn't too like 100%, that's for sure. Like these guys are doing, they went rogue, they did their own thing. You know, I wanted them as advisors. So Reagan to a very small degree was telling the truth. Between you and me, though, he knew exactly what he was doing. Right.

Kara 1:30:40

It's manipulating the situation very easily.

Ed 1:30:43

Yeah, he's just playing the game. Yeah, that's that's all he's doing to prove that this is um that this is what was going on. Holy cow, there's a lot of tenses there. Um Reagan actually approved that bipartisan investigation. So when I mentioned earlier that he probably knew that this whole thing could blow up in his face to some degree, he even went ahead and approved a bipartisan investigation into the whole Iran-Contra affair. Nice, you know, the investigation that would determine to what degree Reagan wasn't involved.

Kara 1:31:20

Right.

Ed 1:31:20

He didn't want to indicate that he was trying to hide anything. Uh, this was Reagan's way of uh playing up the whole honesty card in the public's eyes because like the public would be like, Well, he's got nothing to hide, right? He's an honest guy, so yeah, of course he's gonna set up a bipartisan investigation, you know. He's doing the right thing.

Kara 1:31:43

He's a good dude.

Ed 1:31:44

What a guy.

Kara 1:31:46

What a guy.

Ed 1:31:47

When the investigation was completed in the late 1980s, by the way, it was called the Tower Report. The investigation, I don't know why, other than like maybe there was a dude on it by the name of Tower, but yeah, the Tower Report. The investigation concluded that there was no way Reagan could know exactly what was happening because McFarland, North, and Poindexter went quote unquote rogue, so to speak. These men were supposed to be advisors, not practitioners. In other words, these men should have never been in the position of wheel and dealing with terrorists to free hostages and generate money to pay for the contras in Nicaragua. And that is what the report showed. The three men stepped way out of their respective lines and did things they weren't supposed to be doing. Ultimately, the Tara report showed that Reagan had no way of knowing uh what these men were doing, but he should have taken a more um responsible approach and oversight into their actions, right? Yeah, like Mr. President, shame on you for not keeping a better eye on your team. But that's that's not an impeachable offense.

Kara 1:33:00

Right.

Ed 1:33:01

That Reagan didn't commit a felony. Nope, technically, which thought that's all it is. That's all it takes to uh impeach a president is they have to commit a felony while they're in office. All Reagan had to do at that time was accept McFarlane's resignation when handed to him at the end of November of 1985, and um and fire Poindexter in North a year later.

Kara 1:33:23

Cool.

Ed 1:33:24

Literally, that's all he had to do to get out of it.

Kara 1:33:27

Yep.

Ed 1:33:27

Lastly, the three men sank their own boats when they admitted to Congress in the hearings that they didn't want to let the president down. Uh, these men were instilled with such commitment to achieving their boss's goals that they accidentally nailed themselves to our cross as a result. If I were one of these guys, I would be super pissed at Reagan because he essentially threw them under the bus, like unknowingly threw them under the bus in a way, or so he claimed. But in a way, they were taken care of, right? They really didn't serve any jail time, and they were pardoned or exonerated for their actions, or because they couldn't the prosecution couldn't explain things to a jury good enough. And it makes sense. There's not a lot of um not a case, not a lot of case law that a prosecuting attorney can refer to in a case like this. It's um kind of uncharted territory. MacFarlane. So what happened to all these guys? Well, McFarlane became an advisor for John McCain's presidential campaign, and uh North became a Fox News correspondent. That doesn't surprise me one bit. Like at least CNN, they have like actual qualified reporters, you know.

Kara 1:34:40

I'd hope so.

Ed 1:34:40

Actually went to college for this sort of thing. McFarlane became an advisor to John McCain's presidential campaign, and North became a Fox News correspondent. And Poindexter resigned from the government and Navy and worked in the private sector, and in 2002 worked at DARPA. So yeah, he got super involved with like top secret engineering projects, which is cool.

Kara 1:35:03

Yeah, I guess. I don't know. I guess, like you know, it's a job that's cool.

Ed 1:35:06

Yeah, I mean, I think it'd be a cool job, but something about weapons, man, that just that Pointexter just had a thing for. In the end, Reagan left his two terms as one of the most renowned presidents of the modern era. Sure, during the height of the Iran Contra affair, his approval rating plummeted to like 60, it plummeted from 60 percent down to the 40s. But Reagan's second term was focused on ending the Cold War and bringing down the Soviet Union. That was the other thing, is this like I'm gonna smother this whole Iran Contra thing under the guise of you know, Mr. Gorbachev, Gorbachev, tear down this wall.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:44

Yeah.

Ed 1:35:45

So like that he put that way behind him. Um, Reagan knew that American people were fickle and would forget all the bad stuff after a relatively short period of time, and he knew to overshadow um tarnished actions of the past with a far shinier and appealing policies down the road. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with Reagan or his policies and whatnot, but I have to admit, it was pretty clever in how he got out of it. Like he knew going into it that this was gonna blow up to some degree. He probably didn't know to what degree, but he knew that this could go sideways, and from the very beginning, he made it so that the fallout would not affect him.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:26

Yeah.

Ed 1:36:28

Well, as for the hot remaining hostages, eventually they were released. And when attention turned to Saddam Hussein in the early 90s, the events of the Iran Contra affair completely faded away. Now we've got Desert Storm and the fight in Nicaragua ended with a vote. Yeah. Now the whole thing between the Contras and the Sandinistas um ended in a vote that pushed the Sandinistas out for a period of time. But when the Contras were in, it very quickly became apparent that they were no less corrupt than the Sandinistas. They were doing like summary executions, torturings, like it wasn't really a democracy. It wasn't even communism. It was one despot warlord trying to defeat the other despot warlord in a third world country. It really had nothing to do with advancing communism or democracy, it was completely useless. Eventually, the Sandinistas were brought back, and they are, I think they're still in charge today. So cool. Okay. The goals of the Iran Contra Fair were, for the most part, never fulfilled or really served any purpose whatsoever.

Kara 1:37:37

Nice.

Ed 1:37:38

And that is the Iran Contra Fair, and one of the many, many puzzle pieces that go into uh the jigsaw puzzle of the Middle East being so complicated and confusing, convoluted, and wrought with death and destruction. And the list goes on. All the things, all the things, so yeah. I knew that would be a dumpster fire.

Kara 1:38:03

Yeah, it sure was. I feel like it just waded through a dumpster on fire.

Ed 1:38:08

Yeah, it's uh it was pretty involved trying to break it all down because there's like so much stuff. Like McFarland went to the Middle East, North went to the Middle East, they tried negotiating directly with these guys, and yeah, there was so much more that went sideways than just what I presented here. So, yeah, a lot of the sources that I have on on here, like look them up because they shed a lot more detail in terms of like there's like dumpster fires within dumpster fires, to be honest with you. Oh, yeah. It's a yeah, it is a gnarly, gnarly thing. Um, so yeah, uh, be sure to head on over to the Dave's dumpster fire.com, check out the website. Uh, you will see that our individual uh episode pages are being updated with a link at the top. It will be highlighted red so it stands out, and uh basically that will take you to our support page. The idea is that we don't want ads, we're trying to avoid ads at all costs because who wants to listen to an ad? Uh but instead it's one of these things that if you feel that we provide some sort of value, right? If we educate you, uh we make you laugh, uh hopefully not puts you to sleep. Um, but hey, if we offer something to you that you enjoy and you get a few dollars sitting around not doing anything, you can click on that link um either in our show notes or on our website that will take you to our little support page where hey, you can give us a few dollars. It helps us support your favorite podcast, it makes it so that we can pay for like the web hosting and all that kind of stuff. So it would be kind of cool if the show uh if we didn't have to worry about trying to figure out how to pay bills, we could focus more on uh like researching more and more dumpster fires. So go check it out. Um, yeah, we'll have a link for it in our show notes. We will have it also on our website. Uh be sure to check out the website because we are updating it with all sorts of new and cool things. And one of these days, Kara's gonna be put more artwork on there. Uh, are you gonna have like a special tab just for your artwork?

Kara 1:40:22

Uh right now, what I have is in Kara's corner.

Ed 1:40:26

Okay.

Kara 1:40:26

So it's there, along with some little extras that I've been adding to my episodes. Okay.

Ed 1:40:33

Yeah, I've been I've been kind of doing the same thing. Um, I've been revisiting a lot of my older episodes, putting more stuff in there, more details. So go yeah, go check it out. And then also do us a huge favor. Uh tell your friends, tell your family, uh, try to find like two people that you think could really, really benefit from uh learning about historical screw-ups because like you may know somebody that could be struggling with something. Hey, tell them about the show. It it it may help them out in in some way. And then, of course, if you know anybody that dislikes history, yeah, put it out there and uh worst case scenario, have them support the show. So, Kara, what do you have coming up?

Kara 1:41:17

I am going to bring about some fine, fine culture for all of us. And I'm I'm actually trying to decide how I want to do this, but I'm going to talk about the haze codes and um film censorship in the US. Okay. Um and I'm trying to decide whether I'm going to make it spicy or not.

Ed 1:41:40

So yes.

Kara 1:41:43

Because you can't have censorship without some spice. But that's what I'm working on.

Ed 1:41:47

So would this potentially have um a warning on it?

Kara 1:41:51

It'll probably have a warning in the beginning for some stuff, but I'm I'm gonna work that part out. Otherwise, though, I'm excited for it. I hope you're excited for it. I love film history. I hope you love film history, and we're gonna talk about how we got around censorships before 1968.

Ed 1:42:07

Nice. Yeah, that I think that uh because we we did the um Waterworld movie. Like there's that we haven't covered too many Hollywood dumpster fires.

Kara 1:42:18

We haven't done a lot of Hollywood, there's a lot of Hollywood happening in my brain right now. Uh so it's gonna be a good time. I'm very excited about it.

Ed 1:42:29

Well, cool deal. Yeah, I'm looking forward to that. But yeah, I guess in the meantime, uh, folks, uh, we will catch you on the next historical dumpster fire. And um, yeah, I guess uh in the meantime, keep it a hot mess. He would have done it all over again knowing where he would end up, right? Man, my goodness. It's like Sturge is at your house right now. Damage current damage control had to be implemented and it had to be implemented implemented. Yes, yeah, we're doing fine group and four group and four. Yeah, grubin on the form. Yeah, this one's this one's um grubinform. Yeah, gorbin and floor, yeah. There we go.