The Great Depression Fire Part 4. - Episode 68

The time has come! We thought we'd never get there, but Kara's PhD scholarly review of the Great Depression comes to its climactic end in this episode. This is quite possibly Kara's most ambitious episode yet and this doesn't even include all the extra stuff you can find on at thedaysdumpsterfire.com!

In Part 1. Kara dove into the causes of the Great Depression and dispelled some myths such as the "Crash of 29" was solely responsible for the entire economic collapse of the country. 

In Part 2. Kara looked into what Herbert Hoover tried to do to correct things in American and how it ultimately was too little, too late. This led to Franklin Delano Roosevelt winning the 1932 election by a landslide. 

In Part 3. Kara discusses Roosevelt's strategy in which the federal government would invest hundreds of millions of dollars into the economy to get people working again and banks up and running. In this episode, you'll be introduced to the "alphabet soup" in which a multitude of three-lettered government agencies sprung up across the country intending to right the ship and get America back on track economically. While the government funneling money into the economy may have been met with a sigh of relief to some. Many other workers were growing frustrated by low wages, long hours, and dangerous work, fueled by corporate greed and apathy. As a result, strikes formed coast to coast, and even though unemployment was rampant, so were the number of angry workers who were fed up being taken advantage of. 

Lastly, in Part 4. Kara analyzes Roosevelt's second New Deal program that focused heavily on recovering the arts such as movie making and writing. This new New Deal brought in a number of lawsuits from dissenters (such as Roosevelt's own Vice President!!!) and eventually the supreme court had to get involved. Roosevelt didn't just stop there, he used the unemployed to build hospitals, schools, bridges, dams, hundreds of miles of roads, and airfields. However, this came at a cost as the fledgling "communist scare" tried its best to undermine Roosevelt's plan of recovery. Lastly, Kara sheds light on how the Great Depressions wasn't just an America only ordeal. The rest of the world was struggling in various degrees and this laid the canvas for which World War II would be painted on. 

Some other episodes mentioned that you will find interesting:

Episode 13. Hindenburg 

Episodes 59-62. Prohibition

Hey before you go! 

If have ideas for future episodes that you want Kara and Ed to look into, email them at thedaysdumpsterfire@gmail.com. They would love to hear from you!

You can also send them a text message by clicking on the link at the top. 

Be sure to head on over to www.thedaysdumpsterfire.com for the ever growing library of historical dumpster fires. 

Check us out on the ol Instagrams!
https://www.instagram.com/thedaysdumpsterfire/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Oh yeah. There we go.

SPEAKER_03 0:20

You think after sixty eight, yeah. You think after sixty eight, sixty nine episodes we'd figure that out. It's fine.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

Well, what it is is like we we are constantly coming up with new ideas for the show. And as a result, like we we we make little changes here and there. And uh a lot of times what happens is like we completely forget to or I'll forget to push the button for the music, or like I'm I'm waiting for something else to happen when in reality I just gotta push the button.

SPEAKER_03 0:55

Oh, the button. We're gonna have to make it a big red button.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 0:58

That says do not push.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Or like push at this time or whatever. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:06

Hello everybody. Welcome to the day's dumpster vibe. Uh, as always, this is Kara. Today, my nickname in the past like two months, my name on our little recording software is uh Dirty30 Carrots. I realize I haven't shared that in a while, so I figured I'd let you know. And with me is Ed, as ever. How are you doing, Ed?

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Oh, fantastic. Good. I'm uh I'm no longer in the unemployment line, which is good.

SPEAKER_03 1:29

Excellent. I'm glad.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

Yep. No, no soup kitchen for me.

SPEAKER_03 1:33

It didn't take World War II to get you out of that.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

No, no, and if it did take World War II, they would take in one look at me and be like, yeah, we're not gonna win the war with this guy.

SPEAKER_03 1:43

Back to the kitchens you go, buddy.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Yeah, or maybe keep me out of the kitchens because I'm a I'm a 43-year-old fat man, like with a beard. Like, I'm not what the military has in mind for uh elite soldier material, so to speak.

SPEAKER_03 1:57

Speaking of, are we ready for the epic finale of the Great Depression?

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Yes. And I thought this was supposed to be like a like a five-parter, but I guess you got it down to four.

SPEAKER_03 2:07

I got it down to four. Um, I'm sure people are like, please take me out of the 30s, it's depressing. So I got it down to four, and I think I I have it condensed in a way that is still understandable. So I'm gonna pat myself on the back.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

I mean, we should be good for 1930s-wise, because I mean we've got the uh Dust Bowl episodes, we've got prohibition, now we've got Great Depression.

SPEAKER_03 2:34

Heck yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

Like we're kind of running out of things that went wrong in the in the late 20s and 30s.

SPEAKER_03 2:39

Like, I know I might just move on to the 40s, might as well. I'll figure it out.

SPEAKER_00 2:47

And and and for those who are listening, um, normally I talk about this at the end of the show, but I I am putting together a rather special episode, something that is completely different than what we have been doing.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Um, I'm gonna be looking at something that happened in like 2015, and it's going to involve the or it's gonna be about the uh the greatest cyber attack in history where some nation state actors attempted to steal a billion dollars from from the American government. Sweet. Completely different everything. So that should be a good palette cleanser from the 1930s.

SPEAKER_03 3:26

Yes, stay tuned for all of that good stuff. But for now, um, please join us in going down this rabbit hole of a roller coaster because man, I enjoyed it. Um, and I I appreciate all of you who have stuck around this long with me in the 30s, uh, and going down the rabbit hole that was last episode and the labor strikes.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

Well, and for our students, like bear in mind, like we we try to do a ton of research. We're not like pulling information off of like Wikipedia or anything. Like, we try to find valid resources. So for like if you're in junior high or high school and you're in a history class, like and like this this four-parter on the Great Depression could really give you a like a head start on on that history or that unit in history that you may be going over that involves all this. Like you could come in and to your classroom and be the expert on on the Great Depression.

SPEAKER_03 4:24

Oh, yeah. There's a lot of info here and and in stuff that I was never taught in high school. So that gives you a leg up.

SPEAKER_00 4:32

Yeah, and that's the other thing, too, is we try to figure out a way to like maybe look at it from a slightly different perspective. Stuff that you just normally don't get from a normal history course. And like our audience is all about, like, you know, the best way to describe our audience is these are people that take a great deal of satisfaction in learning new things or being exposed to new ideas and stuff like that that they would never think about before. So yeah, like, yeah, to our students out there, like, dude, use this podcast. Yeah. Like, don't be afraid to let your teachers know that you just turned in a stellar report on the Great Depression because of us.

SPEAKER_03 5:06

Or what you could do is you can shoot us an email and be like, hey, what resources did you use for this episode?

SPEAKER_00 5:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:14

And I will send them to you.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 5:15

I will send you all the things. I do also put the show notes or my personal notes in on the website in the episode page. And I always have either a very fancy bibliography that's in alphabetical order, Chicago format, or it'll just be a whole bunch of links. It depends on how I'm feeling. Um so that will also be there if you want to um really go above and beyond and do the research yourself using what we used.

SPEAKER_00 5:41

Yeah, yeah. And the same thing with me. So you could always just email us at thedaysdumpsterfire gmail.com. If you have any questions or ideas or whatever, yeah, let us know. We can send you what we have or or kind of steer you in the right direction. We have no problems doing that. So, and then yeah, and our website is uh thedaysdumpsterfire.com. So that's where you're gonna find our our notes that that we put together for each show, plus some extra stuff on there, uh pictures and and whatnot. So yeah, don't be afraid to to use us. Like let your teachers know that hey, found a really cool podcast that is giving me a head start on this little project. And um, and if your teacher's never heard of us, then ask to see their phone and and get us signed up or get get that teacher signed up for our show.

SPEAKER_03 6:30

Or just have them sign up themselves, I'm pretty sure.

SPEAKER_00 6:33

Or yeah, or just guide them to it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:36

All right. Now that the housekeeping's all put together, we should probably get this show on the road.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

Right?

SPEAKER_03 6:40

Let's do it. All right.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

So we are uh like part four, section two, quadrant four e paragraph twenty-three.

SPEAKER_03 6:49

That's right. This one's called part four, new deal, part two. I was gonna change the title because I thought it was silly, and then Ed's like, no, keep it. So here we are.

SPEAKER_00 6:56

Yeah, just keep it. It's very it's like Call of Duty Modern Warfare. Like, let's go.

SPEAKER_03 7:01

Yeah, let's just do it. Okay, last episode. We talked about Franklin Roosevelt's first New Deal and how it reshaped federal government through the rapid creation of what I call the alphabet soup agencies. At the same time, rising worker unrest revealed the limits of the recovery without labor protections, culminating in violent clashes between laborers and law enforcement throughout the mid to late 1930s. Together, these events marked a turning point in the Great Depression where economic recovery, labor rights, and federal power came permanently intertwined, paving the way for the second new deal and political battles still to come. All right, just go listen to the other ones.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

Yeah, yeah, that that that'd be the easiest thing to do. It's just if you're just now joining us for part four, um, you you can. Like you're you're still gonna learn a lot, but it it won't hurt to listen to the first three parts either. Yeah. To give you a lot of context.

SPEAKER_03 7:47

It does help. All right, chapter one, relief, recovery, reform, the three R's. And I'm gonna start us with a quote, as I usually do. This is from uh FDR's fireside chat number seven. It says, quote, in spite of the fact that unemployment remains a serious problem, here as in any of every other nation, we have come to recognize the possibility and the necessity of certain helpful remedial measures. These measures are of two kinds. The first is to make provisions and provisions, Jesus, intended to relieve, to minimize, and to prevent future unemployment. The second is to establish practical means to help those who are unemployed in this present emergency.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

You know one thing I've noticed about Roosevelt during all this, and I and I never really um I haven't observed this prior, but and and I think he did a great job bringing it up is that Roosevelt, like he did obviously approach this in two ways. And one way that you could approach it is like, okay, let's just get everybody working and then we'll just figure it out from there. But Roosevelt was really fixed on the idea of like, we need to make sure this can never happen again.

SPEAKER_02 8:56

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

Like he was really, really, really big on that. Um it's almost like he knew that the jobs would come around. He knew eventually things would turn around. So, like, let's let's dedicate some brain power in preventing something like this from happening again, which is why I think for the most part it we haven't seen anything this extreme. Not to this level, not to this level, yeah. I mean, we've had recessions and we've had the great recession, but nothing compared to you know, one in four being unemployed, kind of a thing.

SPEAKER_03 9:26

So this was pretty bad.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

But yeah, I I I I I I just kind of caught that on like, man, he really wanted to prevent this, and then like, oh yeah, and then we got to get everybody jobs. Yeah. So yeah, it was a very interesting way of of looking at it.

SPEAKER_03 9:40

So the first New Deal, which we talked about last episode, that focused on emergency relief, job creation, and stabilizing the banking system. The 911 portion, if you will. The second New Deal from 1935 to 1940, ish, ish, ish, ish, ish. Uh, that was an effort to put policies in place to prevent, like we were just talking about, to prevent future economic disasters while still keeping the first New Deal goals in place. So it was like an add-on, right? You know, you buy the game, and then the game company is like, look at this cool thing. You have to spend a lot of extra money to do it, but it's great. Kind of like that. Reminder, also, in 1933, Roosevelt took the U.S. off of the domestic gold standard to give the Federal Reserve more flexibility during the crisis. In late 1934, the admission, the administration passed the Gold Reserve Act. In a nutshell, what the gold the gold act did, it was uh a reform of the gold standard for the United States and the rest of the world. But it this act was only effective in the United States. So everybody used the gold standard, in other words, sorry, that's confusing. Everybody used the gold standard, but this particular act only affected the US. Just I want to make that clear. Uh, what it did is it devalued the US dollar relative to gold to$35 per ounce from the initial$20.67 per ounce. So what that does is it gives the Fed more flexibility, but keeps the security that the gold standard provides like a compromise between the old gold standard and no gold standard at all. So he does that, puts that back into place a little bit, changes it up.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

So is this like to kind of like uh take um more of a demand off of gold?

SPEAKER_03 11:22

Uh yes, because one of the, if we remember, one of the reasons for the depression and the reason that we didn't have as much credit flexibility, the federal government didn't have as much flexibility is because they were stuck following the gold standard with the rest of the world. The gold standard would not allow them to give more money or loan more money out to people or private companies or spend more money themselves.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 11:45

Because they had to stick to the gold standard.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

Got it.

SPEAKER_03 11:48

That was the old way of doing it. So now that the economy is starting to get into the grasp of the government again, it's not out of control anymore. Um, they're slowly wanting to put it back into place, but they want to change it and make sure that there's still flexibility for the Federal Reserve to use in case anything like that happens again. They can deviate from the gold standard and make sure that complete collapse doesn't happen like it did before.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 12:15

Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 12:15

So it devalued the US dollar relative to the gold to$35 per ounce from the initial$28.67 per ounce.

SPEAKER_03 12:24

Right. It sounds backwards. It too it took me a minute to do that.

SPEAKER_00 12:27

It sounds like they increased it.

SPEAKER_03 12:29

I know it sounds backwards, but it it it's not relevant. It's fine. Let's just say that that helped.

unknown 12:35

It's fine.

SPEAKER_03 12:36

In 1935, the Works Progress Administration, the WPA, and the National Youth Administration were created to create jobs for groups of people who were not included in the first go-around. The Works Progress Administration was one we will definitely visit here shortly. It gave work to artists, entertainers, architects, engineers, public works was a big deal. And the NYA was geared towards students who were looking for work after school. Both men and women could be employed through the NYA and the WPA. And it was created to fill some gaps that were left by the CCC, which we talked about last time. One of the biggest or at least most well-known acts to come out of the Second New Deal was the Social Security Act. Social Security, we all know about Social Security. You know that fun little card with the numbers on it that you're not supposed to share with anybody or else you're gonna die. Yeah, that one.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

So Right.

SPEAKER_03 13:27

This act passed in August of 1935. The Social Security, yeah, yeah. It was passed as a sweeping payroll tax that provides people of old age with benefits such as unemployment compensation, pensions, and widows' benefits. Other elements of the Social Security Act, like disability, would be added later. So I think disability was added in the 50s, like the late 50s or something. At the start, the use of a payroll tax through employee or employer compensation was actually really controversial. Many people didn't like the idea of having their income tax for the benefit of the elderly. However, many other people were in full support of it. So it was a little bit divisive. If this idea was so controversial, then why did Congress feel it was super necessary? And why is it still around today when other New Deal acts and organizations have been put by the wayside? I think to answer those questions, it is very important to put in perspective what life was like for people who were getting old. Happens to everybody, right? There's no escaping it. But what did it actually look like? What was what was it systematically? What did everybody have to look forward to when they get old? It's not pretty, doesn't look good.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

Or if you got injured.

SPEAKER_03 14:35

Or injured, like so that's it.

SPEAKER_00 14:40

You simply just made no money.

SPEAKER_03 14:42

Correct. You were kind of SOL.

SPEAKER_00 14:46

Yeah. Yeah. It was kind of a kind of a bad deal if you ever got old or got injured and and whatnot. Um, but I also see why people and people still get upset about it today. It's like, why am I losing, you know, 20% of my paycheck to pay for some boomer who's retired?

SPEAKER_03 15:00

Well, let's answer that question, shall we?

SPEAKER_00 15:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:02

Before the Social Security Act was passed, most elderly people did not have a pension or enough in their savings account to survive as they got older. According to the US Census and the Committee of Economic Security, yes, I read the documents. Yes, they're very boring, but hey, here we are.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

Uh oh, thrilling.

SPEAKER_03 15:18

They made or less than 5% of the working population had a pension through their employer. And those few, even less, provided enough funding for people to live adequately. When they became too old to work, generally people would live with family to be taken care of by their children. But at the height of the depression, and in many cases, even before the depression, living with family was not an option as circumstances were different for everybody from family to family. And at this point, especially in the depression, barely being able to feed your kids, let alone feeding your kids and taking care of your parents at the same time. Countless members of society worked until they were physically incapable of doing so. In this period, men of all ages, including the elderly, were working in industries with unstable pay and less than ideal conditions, let alone a pension. See last episode. Working riots. There's a reason. In 1934 through 1935, the poverty rate among the elderly was about 50 to 70 percent. So 50 to 70 percent of the elderly population were living in poverty from 34 to 35. That's a very high amount.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

Yeah, that's that's gnarly.

SPEAKER_03 16:25

It's pretty bad. On top of that, the medical bills were so high that people just stopped going. They couldn't afford it.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:31

So, you know, as you're getting older, you need to go to the doctor more often just because, you know, you're getting older. That's just how it goes, but you can't. So then you have that going on. And then on top of that, if they were out of a job, finding a new job was next to impossible. Age discrimination was extremely common, and most companies would refuse to hire anybody above the age of 50. So if you're fifty, if you're older, you're screwed.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

Well, my my grandfather remembers um in in the 30s, he remembers uh people like men were buying um like shoe polish. And the idea was that they would put it in their hair or they would put it in their beards to give them uh like to to like hide the gray.

SPEAKER_03 17:09

Hide the gray to make up dark. Yeah, so they couldn't.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

So that they could they could try to get a job that way. So they looked about 20 years younger.

SPEAKER_03 17:16

Yeah, that actually makes a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

Yeah, yeah. My grandfather, like, and he would see sales signs, you know, like the girl, like the stores would all have, hey, we just got our our shoe polish in. We've got black, we've got brown, we've got you like all these different colors. So yeah, come on in if you're looking for a job, like get your uh shoe polish here.

SPEAKER_03 17:36

Hey, gotta market it wherever the demand is.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

Very American way of doing things for sure.

SPEAKER_03 17:43

All right. So let's say you're over 50, your family can't take care of you, or you don't have a family, right? You're out of a job and nobody is going to hire you. Okay. Uh, where are you gonna go? Your options are basically narrowed down to two. You either live on the streets and beg, yeah. Fun. Or uh you live in a poor house. Usually they're called alms houses. Alms houses were seen as a last resort, uh, a move of desperation, if you will. These were not nursing homes. These are places that are always, always overcrowded, unsanitary, and overall just really depressing.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:18

Okay. A lot of people who were mentally disabled would end up in alms houses. A lot of people who were struggling with some sort of substance abuse were in alms houses. And then you had a lot of people who were just struggling with poverty, homelessness, and um the elderly, all mixed together.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

Yeah. And and and like you said, there were they were getting no medical treatment. Nope. It was literally just a cot, and you'd be it was literally just a cot, a blanket, and maybe a roof over your head. That was it.

SPEAKER_03 18:50

Yeah, that was it. It was almost like a holding house. I'd say like a oh, no, no, maybe not. I was gonna say maybe an assailant side would be better, but I don't think so. Not in this period. That's all pretty bad.

SPEAKER_00 19:01

Yeah, it's all pretty bad. Those reforms didn't really kind of go into effect until like the 70s, but yes. Yeah, no, it's all bad. I I would say it was more like a halfway house or yeah, even still worse though. Yeah, it it literally was just designed to get you off the street, and yeah, yeah, that that that was it.

SPEAKER_03 19:21

Yeah, that's about it. It's terrible. Anyway, I don't know about you, but if this is what I had to look forward to when I get old, I would I I would work until I died.

SPEAKER_01 19:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:29

I'd be pretty freaked out. And apparently I'm not the only one. So in 1933, uh a doctor, Francis Townsend, had lost his job as the assistant health director in Long Beach, California, at the age of 66 due to the ongoing depression. Unfortunate, but it happens to everybody, at least then. Deciding he was going to push for retirement instead of finding new work as a doctor, he became increasingly frustrated about the state of affairs for the other people in his position or in worse situations like living in the alms houses. So Townsend devised a plan that would become the seed of Social Security two years later. What he said is he proposed a federally funded pension of$200 per month for people over 60, paid for by a 2% national sales tax on the all on all business transactions. Okay. So a little different than what we have now, but this was his proposal. The stipulation for recipients would be that they all had to go out and spend the money within the month to continue receiving those pension funds. So they were putting money into the economy and then they were getting it back because it was through a sales tax, right? So it's kind of circulating. He believed this would effectively effectively end the depression through consumer spending by the elderly population while also taking care of said elderly population. And considering a healthy capitalist economy does significantly depend on consumer spending, I can absolutely see where he's coming from. I mean, to me it makes sense. In September of 1933, Johnson began lobbying his proposal on a local level with the help of volunteers. And in July of 1934, he and his volunteers opened a headquarters and called it the old age revolving pensions LTD Limited.

SPEAKER_00 21:11

Old Age Revolving Pensions. Boy, that woo! Really catchy.

SPEAKER_03 21:16

He's a doctor, not a marketing manager. All right, it's fine. OARP. That sounds a lot like AARP, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 21:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:25

Yeah?

SPEAKER_01 21:25

Yeah, it does.

SPEAKER_03 21:27

By September of that same year, they were receiving 2,000 letters per day from interested parties. Groups of people who supported Townsend began calling themselves Townsend clubs. And by 1935, there were 1,000 Townsend clubs across the country. Townsend clubs would continue to gain popularity and operate even after the passage of the Social Security Act in 1935, all the way into the 1950s. This is pretty pretty popular.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:53

The pressure being doled out by the OARP gained the attention of the Roosevelt administration, and in 1934, the president. Created a committee within the Office of Economic Security to look into the proposal and the problems it was trying to solve. After some back and forth from the committee, Congress came back with a proposal that would be the Social Security Act passed in 1935. So, you know, they they made some changes after over like looking over his proposal. But it's kind of the same idea with some tweaks. You know, we're using employer taxes instead of sales taxes. And uh I think I don't know how it works now, but well, I I should really look into that. That was uh an omission.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

Oh, social security works now or versus now versus back in the 30s.

SPEAKER_03 22:37

I don't know if it's the same or different in terms of how much you get in terms of your payment through the taxes and all of that fun.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

So we don't have to get into it, but well, yeah, it has a lot to do with when you retire, what age do you retire, right? And and all that kind of stuff. But there was one major thing, one major difference today that was not an issue back then. And I'll I'll let you uh I'll let you do your quote here from Roosevelt and see if you can see if you caught on to the major difference.

SPEAKER_03 23:08

All right, cool. Uh our social security legislation. Oh, sorry, this is the quote from Roosevelt from the same fireside chat, fireside chat number seven. Our social security legislation is an attempt to answer the first of these questions. Our work relief program is the second. And these questions are the questions of unemployment and baking crisis and keeping jobs and whatnot. Our work relief program is second. The program for social security now pending before the Congress is a necessary part of future unemployment policy of the government. It proposes, by means of old age pensions, to help those who have reached the age of retirement to give up their jobs and thus give to the younger generation greater opportunities for work and to give to all a feeling of security as they look towards old age. Provisions for social security, however, are protections for the future. Our responsibility for the immediate necessities of the unemployed has been met by the Congress through the most comprehensive work plan in the history of the nation. FDR.

SPEAKER_00 24:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 24:12

There's your crow.

SPEAKER_00 24:14

So that's interesting. I I so Roosevelt's perspective on that fireside chat was like, okay, you got a bunch of old people that they they need to retire because they're old. Like, well, they they just need to retire because they're 60 years old. Like they can retire. Yeah, and it's gonna cost less less money to kind of give them like a stipend each month and open up a job for a younger man who can work extra hours and put in the effort and potentially make more money as a result. So, in a way, like the government is going to be seeing more money come in versus like a 75-year-old man working, you know, as much as he can, which may only be in like four to five hours a day, and preventing another guy from getting a job.

SPEAKER_03 25:11

Right. So the whole idea is to make sure that people feel they are safe and secure enough to be able to retire and open up a new job for a younger person who will just take over and it kind of like rolls.

SPEAKER_00 25:26

Well, and and the big thing, because I I mean, I I uh I remember when I was in APUS history and it was an election year, and everybody was going on about oh, Social Security will come to an end, you know, they're gonna kill it this time. And I remember my history teacher telling me like America has been saying that Social Security has been on the chopping block since 1935.

SPEAKER_03 25:49

Like correct. Absolutely, yep.

SPEAKER_00 25:53

It's always come up, it's always been on the chopping block, and it has been ever since. And the one major difference is this, and I just looked it up. So Social Security goes into effect when you turn 60, right? Okay, the average life expectancy um in 1935 was 61.7 years.

SPEAKER_03 26:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

So the idea is that you would retire and you'd be getting your monthly stipend because you're not going to live that much longer after you retire, anyways. Right. Statistically speaking, that's obviously not.

SPEAKER_03 26:29

Yeah, not for everybody. Like you're not always going to die at 61.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

Yeah, yeah. It and a lot of that is affected by um you know childbirth deaths and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_03 26:40

But yeah, there's a lot in that number.

SPEAKER_00 26:42

Today, though, the average life expectancy is like 80. So now when somebody retires, they are pulling, especially the baby boomers, like that was a massive amount of people that was born right after World War II, and they're living longer, and therefore they're gonna be draining the social security to no fault of their own. It's like it's not their fault they're living longer, like just mathematically, it it's uh a harder thing to swing. Yeah. So that that that was the big thing is that they weren't expecting in in 1935, they weren't expecting um people living into their 80s and even 90s now. And so that's one of the reasons why Social Security has come up so often, especially recently, is because it's like like people are retiring and they're pulling on federal funds for 30 years, 20 to 30 years, when it was originally intended to be uh a pull on the system for a couple of years after they retire.

SPEAKER_03 27:48

Yeah, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 27:50

It was just a something to just kind of put in the back of your mind.

SPEAKER_03 27:54

Good for thought.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

Yeah, that's why I can see why people are very critical of it today. And that's why like a lot of retirees will tell you like, don't retire under the premise that, oh, I'm getting social security. Work for a pension, put in a 401k, invest in your retirement. That's where you're really gonna be able to like retire comfortably. Um, whereas if you just work with the and not save up anything for the intention of like, oh, I'll get social security, it's not gonna be much.

SPEAKER_03 28:24

But also just remember why it was put in place. Why is it there? Yes, why is it important? And maybe we could think about reform and not just cutting it completely.

SPEAKER_00 28:37

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 28:38

Because I I think the the reasons it's there is just as important as why it needs reform.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

Yeah. So no, I I I I I wholeheartedly agree. It's something that maybe both sides of the aisle need to sit down and figure out, okay, what's in the best interest of the American people. And um, I don't see that happening anytime so it's just gonna be a huge argument. But that's one of the reasons that I just wanted to bring it up because that's one of the reasons why the Social Security thing has really come up over the years, is because people are retiring and they're living in longer and longer and longer, which is a it hits that that Social Security Farder and harder and harder. And that's something that they didn't think about back then in 1935, is somebody living to be 85, 90 years old.

SPEAKER_03 29:24

Yeah, there's a lot of um today at least there. I mean, but this is an act that's almost a hundred years old. Yeah, it's 90 years old, right? So there are a lot of variables in terms of today's social security system to take into consideration. But you know, when we go back almost 90 years, uh it looks different.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:44

But I think the reason it's there is still applicable.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

Yes, you know, so social security is because it makes it possible for younger folks to actually get jobs, correct, or like live.

unknown 29:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

Well, and and we're seeing like more and more people of retirement age, they they're they're opting to work, or they take uncontract jobs after they retire. Correct. Which cool, I guess, but that's also preventing new blood from coming in and and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, it there's no there's no win-win here. It is a very complicated, yes, um, very politicized, very nuanced program, I guess you could say.

SPEAKER_03 30:25

Yes, but now you have the history and background behind it, so you know what it's for, why it's there, and you can draw your own conclusions in terms of how you want to feel about it. But that's why it's there, and I think it's there for good reasons.

SPEAKER_01 30:40

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 30:41

And then, you know, all of the other stuff that comes after that, I'll let you figure out. Yep. So by 1935, working conditions for laborers were greatly improving. Thank you, labor strikes. By 1936, the stock market levels were back to pre-1929 levels. Unemployment was hovering at around 14%, and then it goes back up a couple years later. But right now we're at 14. Uh, a huge improvement over 25% at the depression's height in 1933. So we're things are looking up, guys. We're doing okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:13

So it took about six, seven years for things to turn around. Now, do you think a lot of that is tied to Roosevelt's policies, or do you think the economy would have eventually gotten back to this point?

SPEAKER_03 31:26

That is a question that historians still argue about. The New Deal and its effectiveness is something historians are still looking at, talking about, looking at it from different perspectives. They're looking at it from um, you know, what good did it do? What did it ignore? What did it miss? What did it do bad? Uh, and they're still looking at that. So I have my opinions on the New Deal, and I can share them after the episode is finished because they're not done with it yet.

SPEAKER_00 31:59

Um well, I think I think at the bay at the most basic level, what it did do, and I think it successfully did this, is it gave people hope.

SPEAKER_03 32:08

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:09

Like I think so. Like we're going to get through this. We are going to climb out of this. It will get better. And just having that mindset is like three-quarters of the battle.

SPEAKER_02 32:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

Of not letting yourself fall into despair and just let the world collapse, kind of a thing. So I think it did a lot in terms of giving people a lot of hope and an understanding that it's not going to be like this forever.

SPEAKER_03 32:33

Right. And we are going to get back uh to a the WPA, the giant noodle in the alphabet soup. The biggest noodle.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

One spaghetti noodle.

SPEAKER_03 32:45

Correct. Uh, but first, we have a court discussion that we need to chat about, guys. Chapter two, court battle. By the election of 1936, people were still excited for Roosevelt as president. He won the election in a landslide against his opponent, Alf landed, with 60% of the popular vote and the electoral vote of 523 to 8.

SPEAKER_00 33:06

Now that's wild.

SPEAKER_03 33:08

Crazy.

SPEAKER_00 33:08

Is that the largest landslide election in history?

SPEAKER_03 33:12

I don't know. I would like to look at that. That's a good question. We'll look at that.

SPEAKER_00 33:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:17

Yeah. So in 1936, it looked a lot like 1935. However, in 1937, the Roosevelt administration began seeing some uh complications that needs to be figured out. In 1937, the Supreme Court justices were uh very well known to lean conservative, as many of them were appointed before Roosevelt was elected. And if we remember from episode I think one, Roosevelt was the first Democrat, not the first, but Roosevelt and the Democratic cabinet and all of that stuff. Uh that was the first time that all three sections of the election went blue for a very long time. Because, you know, it was uh, you know, yeah, we talked about it. Remember. Big deal. Now, after passing sweeping New Deal legislation that was immensely progressive, a lot of cases against New Deal policies were being brought up to the Supreme Court. Remember, we talked about TVA in the last episode, the Tennessee Valley Authority. That one was brought up to the Supreme Court. Throughout Roosevelt's first term, 11 out of the 16 New Deal proposals or legislations were struck down by the Supreme Court. They overturned certain acts, such as the um AAA, so the agricultural one, the NRIA. Don't remember what that one was, but we did talk about it last time, and a minimum wage proposal in the state of New York. Finally, in 1935, Roosevelt had his attorney general look into ways to get the New Deal acts to stick. Because right now, 11 out of 16 shut down. That's pretty, it's not great, right? So uh he'd come back to Roosevelt, this attorney general, with a plan that was so divisive that even Roosevelt supporters thought it it's going too far, friend. In 1937, early 1937, February, to be exact, the Supreme Court was getting ready to settle a case against the Wagner Act. And remember, the Wagner Act is the act that allows unionization, right? And the Social Security Act. Now, these New Deal Acts were cornerstones for FDR, and he was ready to do whatever it took to make sure that they were not overturned. And I would like to also remind you that most of the entities, people, whatever, who are um suing against the New Deal and calling it unconstitutional or whatever are usually private businesses, corporations, businessmen, uh, people like that.

SPEAKER_00 35:38

Yeah. So the people that stood a chance of losing a lot of money. And a lot of it too, it's like I can like these businesses, they're the ones that were responsible for pulling the money out of their paychecks, out of the employees' paychecks to give to the federal government. So that meant a lot more clerical work and and all that kind of stuff on them. So it's I could kind of see where they're coming from, but still get a grip, guys.

SPEAKER_03 36:04

So after holding a dinner meeting with Supreme Court justices, which I think is kind of funny. He was in the room where it happened.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

That sounds like a total conflict of interest.

SPEAKER_03 36:14

He's having a dinner meeting, right? Uh FDR announces to Congress and the public uh that he had the opinion. He's not saying this is executive order and this has to happen. No, he's saying I think that the Supreme Court needs age limits and 15 members instead of nine. Okay. And this is interesting.

SPEAKER_00 36:33

We've we've we've heard this before.

SPEAKER_03 36:35

He's the first guy to to come up with this plan here. And he says, at the time, six out of the nine justices were over 70 years old. And with so many justices in that age range, FDR felt that he had a shot in persuading the justices to retire. In 1935, Supreme Court justices had their pensions reduced. FDR had promised the justices their full pensions before that cut. If they retired at 70, as long as Congress approved, like Congress, he's like, Congress needs to approve this. I have to get through Congress to do this. Additionally, whenever a justice turned 70 but chose to stay on court, they would be appointed an assistant justice who was younger, probably in their 40s or 50s or whatever, uh, who would learn and aid the justice they were appointed to until their retirement.

SPEAKER_00 37:22

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_03 37:23

So FDR defended this plan, saying it would assist in increasing the caseload, and that the Supreme Court was a little old-fashioned and in need of more modern views of politics. What it would also do is increase the amount of justices who would be willing to support New Deal policies that were being threatened by banks and corporations, but he didn't tell them that.

SPEAKER_00 37:42

Kind of stacking stacking the deck a little bit. I think every president has done that.

SPEAKER_03 37:48

Or at least wanted to.

SPEAKER_00 37:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:51

They didn't get the chance. FDR's court packing plan, as I called it, uh, proved to be rather unpopular amongst both sides of the aisle, as well as the general public. His vice president at the time, John Nance Garner, went out in public to renounce the plan. Artists, writers of the period spoke out against the plan. Um, I think it's a very interesting way to go about it. I don't think it's a bad idea.

SPEAKER_00 38:14

His vice president was against it.

SPEAKER_03 38:16

Yep. His vice president came out against it.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

That's yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:20

Like that's that's how um bad of an idea they thought it was at the time.

SPEAKER_00 38:25

Oh my gosh, that's wild.

SPEAKER_03 38:26

Like it's crazy, right? I was like, wow, I didn't even know this happened until like I knew it happened, but I didn't know the extent, you know.

SPEAKER_00 38:33

Yeah, I know. It's uh I bet that made some uh follow-up one-on-one meetings a little awkward in the old White House.

SPEAKER_03 38:39

Maybe for a little bit. Uh so let's see what kind of came of this. This is interesting, all right. So hear me out. I know we're talking laws and courts and blah, blah, blah, but just let's go with it. At the same time, while discourse over the court packing plan was circulating, a Supreme Court case called West Coast Hotel Company versus Parish was being reviewed. In a nutshell, Elsie Parish, an employee of the West Coast Hotel Company in Washington State, sued her employer, claiming she was getting paid an unfair wage under a Washington state law that regulated wages for female workers. She was not getting paid as much as the men, right? Tale as old as time.

SPEAKER_00 39:16

Yeah, boy, yeah, we're we're still seeing that today.

SPEAKER_03 39:18

Yep. So the company argued that the Washington law was infringing on its free will to contract his employees. The case went all the way up to the Supreme Court. In the end, the quote the court voted for Parish five to four. Story goes that one justice, Justice Roberts, made a last-minute decision to change his vote in favor of parish. We have no historical record to prove that that's true, but it makes for a good story. And it's referred to today as the switch in time that saved nine because like why does this matter? Why do we care? This particular court case overturned a previous case from 1905 called Lochner versus New York, in which the court ruled that the federal government has no say in private company affairs. The parish case overturned that ruling, and it became a symbolic one for the New Deal moving forward. After the parish decision, the Supreme Court ruled in favor of social security, which was being contested for its constitutionality. This decision was followed up by a string of court rulings that upheld New Deal policies in place thereafter, easing anxieties of New Deal supporters and Roosevelt himself. So that's why they call it the switch in time that saved nine, which may not have actually happened, but it's a good story.

SPEAKER_00 40:29

It's catchy.

SPEAKER_03 40:30

It's catchy. It's pretty good. Roosevelt still watched his court pecking case reach Congress for a vote, despite more success with the Supreme with the Supreme Court, including a new employee, in May of 1937. Ultimately, it was struck down by the Senate in a 77 to 22 vote. So that was the end of that. Nail in the coffin. He tried.

SPEAKER_00 40:48

This was for what's what's your legislation?

SPEAKER_03 40:51

This was for the 77 to 22.

SPEAKER_00 40:54

Yeah, was that for Social Security or that was for his court packing. Oh, got it, got it. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 40:59

Yeah. Social Security was passed. Uh WPA was passed. What was the other one I was looking at? Yeah, the other one's pr pretty much passed. So so after all of that pressure and craziness and FDR just ready to go nuclear on it because he was getting so frustrated. Uh, and I'm sure people who were supporting these New Deal acts and benefiting from it, they were probably getting a little freaked out.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:24

If you can imagine. Um, the Supreme Court was a little more lenient, not lenient, forgiving to the New Deal plan after that.

SPEAKER_00 41:33

Yeah, like and well, and these he didn't put any more uh like I can't remember if Roosevelt put any Supreme Court justices in there. I don't think he did.

SPEAKER_03 41:44

He did. He he got one in May of 1937.

SPEAKER_00 41:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 41:48

Um, I mean he was a three-term president, technically, so I'd imagine there's at least one in there, but especially it's all right.

SPEAKER_00 41:54

We're talking like 1937, not like not like day one. He wasn't stacking the courts.

SPEAKER_03 42:00

No, no, no. This was the late 1930s, where the Supreme Court is turning down 11 out of 16 New Deal policies.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:08

And it's getting to the point where it's just stupid. At least that's how he felt.

SPEAKER_01 42:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:13

So, all right. Chapter three, public works. I promise I would get back to the Works Progress Administration. Well, here we are. Um, I really enjoyed this little section just because it's my wheelhouse, but I hope you like it too. Here we go. In 1935, we're gonna go back a little bit, sorry, but in 1935, the WPA was created by executive order through the Emergency Relief Appropriation Act in 1935. The unemployment rate that year, because there was a recession a little bit, was 20%. Okay, so still high, not the 25% high that it was in 1933, and not quite the 14% we were talking about in 1936-37. The reason for that, that that difference, the the 6%, I think I could be wrong. I think it comes from this WPA. Okay. So the program was designed to provide relief to that 20% by providing jobs to as many people as possible. The WPA would become the most famous noodle of the alphabet soup because it was the largest noodle and provided the most jobs to more people than all the other previous programs. I would also argue that it had the most visual impact on the country. You can still see the result of these projects today. To lead the WPA, Roosevelt assigned Harry Hopkins. During the first New Deal, Hopkins contributed to his efforts in the F E R A and the CWA. Sorry, I know I'm not going to expand on those, but go back, look it up. Lots of alphabet soup.

SPEAKER_00 43:38

Uh he was also there. I wonder if there is a can of alphabet soup out there called New Deal Soup.

SPEAKER_03 43:44

I want it.

SPEAKER_00 43:45

I I I'll I'll I'll find it, and if I can find it, I'll buy it and send it to you. Please. New Deal Soup.

SPEAKER_03 43:51

That would be that would be such a good present for me. If anybody else finds it, tell me.

SPEAKER_00 43:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 43:57

All right. Uh so Harry Hopkins was also good for. With the Roosevelts, both Eleanor and um Franklin. But from what I was reading, he was a little closer with Eleanor and he would work with them throughout the Warriors. At a tight in 1938, the program provided jobs to a massive 3.3 million people in just that one year in 1938. Just to compare the CCC, that one we were talking about last time, that employed 3 million people in the span of nine years. The WPA did that in plus some in just one year. In its eight-year run, it would employ 8.5 million people.

SPEAKER_00 44:35

Jeez.

SPEAKER_03 44:36

See why I think it kind of contributed to that to that number.

SPEAKER_00 44:41

Well, you think about those are all people that are now paying taxes. These are all people that are now buying things and like they're now contributing to the economy.

SPEAKER_02 44:51

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 44:52

They're depositing money in the banks and and and all that. Like that adds up fast.

SPEAKER_03 44:57

It sure does. The WPA employed mostly men, but it did employ women too. We'll get to that. The average wage for workers was about$41.57 per month, about ish. The number can fluctuate. It would spend a total of$11 billion by the end of its run in 1943. Um, Hopkins defended that number, saying something like, uh, you can give a man a dole and feed him for a day, but if you give a man a job, you can feed him for life, or something like that. Yeah, he's pretty cool, dude. Look him up.

SPEAKER_01 45:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:27

This program had a lot of different facets to it, different branches to the tree, if you will. The biggest armor branch of the program was infrastructure and public works. So people in this program built more than 4,000 schools, 130 hospitals, 29,000 bridges, 9,000 miles of storm drains and sewer lines. So they were improving all that good infrastructure. They built or repaired 280,000 miles of road. Crazy. They built 150 airfields. And shout out to episode 48. In the Great Plains region, they planted 24 million trees to help restore the soil from the dust bowl. That's a lot of work.

SPEAKER_00 46:08

Yeah, they were busy.

SPEAKER_03 46:09

It's a lot of infrastructure work. They were busy and man.

SPEAKER_00 46:14

Well, that's why, like, I would say like the 29,000 bridges, the 9,000 miles of storm drains and sewer lines, uh, 280,000 miles of roads, like like a lot of that stuff is still around today.

SPEAKER_03 46:27

Oh, yeah. That's why I was like, a lot of this stuff you can still see it.

SPEAKER_00 46:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:31

Yeah, it's still there.

SPEAKER_00 46:33

Like, yeah, and they these were all aspects of the um the infrastructure that America still has. Like this is all around today. Now it's starting to kind of show its age and fall apart and stuff like that. But yeah, I mean, we're hitting 90 years, but yeah, like the this this this little uh um this little project here like really prepare like propelled America structurally for like the next 50, 60 years.

SPEAKER_03 47:00

Yep, it's pretty impressive.

SPEAKER_00 47:01

It's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_03 47:02

So here's another branch of the tree, if you will. While the WPA consisted of mostly men, it did have a strong women's division called the Professional Projects Division. Of the 3.3 million employed in 1938 by the WPA, 13.5% of that were made of women. The PPV was led by a woman named Ellen Woodward. Ellen served as a House representative for the state of Mississippi during the 1920s, and she was only the second woman to do so. In the early 1930s, she found herself on the staff of Roosevelt's campaign team, uh, campaigning in the state of Mississippi. And the first New Deal, she was appointed as a director of the women's division for FERA before being appointed director of the women's division for the WPA. So she's got she's got some skin in the game here. She's she's doing pretty good.

SPEAKER_00 47:47

Yeah, she sounds like a busy lady.

SPEAKER_03 47:49

Yeah. Under Woodward's direction, her division employed about 450,000 women across the country. And for the jobs they were doing, the women were being paid equally to the men, which she really fought for. Good for her. Some of the work offered for women were, and and this is a little bit more like okay, sewing, all right, library work, adult education, care for the elderly, canning, research, nursing, gardening, museum work, stuff like that. Um, you know, I I can get behind most of it, and some of it I'm like, all right, like the gardening, okay, buddy.

SPEAKER_00 48:21

Yeah. But yeah, like I I yeah, I I could only imagine you back then like having to take like sewing courses.

SPEAKER_03 48:29

Right. Imagine me.

SPEAKER_00 48:30

Or nursing.

SPEAKER_03 48:32

I would go for the research, the museum work, the education would be good, library work. Like, like I said, most of it's neat.

SPEAKER_00 48:38

I can get behind, but it it's a little sexist.

SPEAKER_03 48:42

A little bit, but it it could be worse.

SPEAKER_00 48:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:45

Uh Woodward fought for women and their right to work for equal wages. While all of this sounds great and it sounds progressive and wonderful, a majority of the population still held the traditional belief that women belonged in the home and shouldn't be working. But the reality was it was the depression and work was work, right? It's the depression. Yeah, somebody needs to make money. Under Woodward's direction, every supervisor in all 48 states for the FTP for this um, this place, uh, they were she was a woman. So she made sure she tried to employ as many women as she could. Well, there were other divisions at the WPA. The last one I'm going to talk about is the federal project number one. I found this rabbit hole really fun. Federal project number one was the WPA arts division. It funded artists and art projects of all kinds, music, visual arts, theater, all the things, writers too. And um, when it came under scrutiny, Harry Hopkins, the guy who's running a WPA, he's like, what? There are people too, they gotta eat too, right? Like, I don't remember the exact quote, but I I did I do like him because he's he's got some some zingers. It's pretty good. Uh the intention of Federal One was to put artists to work, but at the same time, it gave the general public affordable or free entertainment during the depression years. It beautified a lot of the um federal buildings and stuff like that to bring some joy, right? We we need some some color in the world today. Please, please bring some joy. The program provided paid work for tens of thousands of artists. Most of the artworks commissioned were in or outside public buildings and federal buildings and stuff like that. Uh total, it was about 2,566 murals were created, and 17,744 sculptures were created.

SPEAKER_00 50:30

And again, this is an well, and it and if you look at the South, uh, out of those 17,744 sculptures, uh a lot of them were like Civil War generals, uh, Civil War era like politicians and leaders. Um, they named a lot of schools after like Civil War Confederate names and and all that kind of stuff. So I I think there are some certain states that are like, woo-hoo, we can really capitalize on our treasonous heritage.

SPEAKER_03 51:06

Yeah.

unknown 51:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:07

You're not wrong.

SPEAKER_03 51:08

It is a can of worms, but you're not wrong.

SPEAKER_00 51:10

Yeah. Especially given light of like recent events, like in the past 15, 20 years. It's just like, you know what, naming your school Robert E. Lee, uh it just doesn't really have the uh the the zeal to it that it probably had back then.

SPEAKER_03 51:28

Yeah, yeah. When I finish my masters, guys, and I have a little bit more a little bit more bulk to my um history skills, maybe I'll do something on the Civil War.

SPEAKER_00 51:41

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:42

Um, but for now, because that's a can of worms, and I would love to talk about it. I still love talking about it, but yeah, I I I might I might hit it after I get my master's degree in the subject, just for just so you could be like shut up, Ed.

SPEAKER_00 51:56

I have a master's in this.

SPEAKER_03 51:57

Correct. I'm amazing.

SPEAKER_00 52:03

I can't wait to hear that after every single argument.

SPEAKER_03 52:06

Yes, it's facts. Um, but but these these murals and these sculptures, it that's another reason why I said that you can this is probably the act that is most visual because of all of these pieces of art that are all over the place. You can still see them. A lot of the federal buildings that you go into, um, they they have a lot of art that I don't remember the name of that particular style, but it's a very particular style of art out of the 1930s. And you you'll you'll know it when you see it. And a lot of these federal buildings have them. If you go to the Hoover Dam, it's all over the freaking place. Um, but yeah, if you go to a federal building and you see that type of art, this is probably where it came from.

SPEAKER_00 52:45

I think it the style was art deco.

SPEAKER_03 52:48

I think you're right.

SPEAKER_00 52:48

That's where it was like curved lines would what well so like you would have uh mirroring curved lines that would then come up and then touch a vertical line. Yeah, I always think of like a horizontal line and there'd be straight.

SPEAKER_01 53:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:03

And then you would see more curved, and then they'll go to straight and then curve and then straight and so on and so on.

SPEAKER_03 53:09

Look, yeah, that look up the movie uh Metropolis.

SPEAKER_00 53:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:12

All over it.

SPEAKER_00 53:13

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 53:13

Just just look up 1930s art, you'll find it. I can't believe I forgot the name of that.

SPEAKER_00 53:18

Yeah, and then in Europe it was uh um, I think it was a little later, I think it was in the 40s and the 50s. It's called Bauhaus, where it's a very much a uh form meets function type of thing.

SPEAKER_03 53:30

Yeah. Um, fun fact, George O'Keefe used to paint in that style, and then she changed to her um more signature flowery style.

SPEAKER_00 53:41

Yeah, yeah. Bauhaus and art deco are fascinating art forms. I I love them, but yeah, it's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_03 53:47

Yeah. It's pretty cool. So yeah, go look those up. They're still around. Federal One was not the only, was not only focused on paintings and sculptures, though it was a big part of it. It also included documentaries, film, and theater. From 1935 to 1939, the Federal Theater Project made a quarter, made up a quarter of the federal arts projects in the WPA. So it was a really big section under under this program. And that section was under the direction of a Hattie Flanagan. And boy, do I love Hattie Flanagan. She's great.

SPEAKER_00 54:19

Is this our uh badass woman of the episode?

SPEAKER_03 54:22

This is our our badass bee of the episode. I like her a lot. Um, I really one of these days I'm gonna do a whole thing on Eleanor Roosevelt, but that's down the road.

SPEAKER_01 54:33

Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:34

Yeah. The theater project was responsible for bringing classical theater as well as new stage plays sponsored by the government to people across the nation. At its height, the FTP employed around 12,700 people. That's a lot of people. Groups toward the nation putting on performances in communities, big and small, urban and rural. They were all over the place. And you know, this is nice, right? You can go and watch a stage play, but for free almost. And you can't go see a movie because it's too expensive. And sometimes the play is cooler anyway. And you can hear them, which is no, I think talkies were around at this time, but still.

SPEAKER_00 55:09

So one thing that's always interesting, because I I grew up watching like uh Nick at Night.

SPEAKER_02 55:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:14

Right. You know, like the Dobie Gill show, the Patty Duke show, uh Dick Cabot, um, you know, uh the Mr. Ed the Talking Horse, um, Gilligan's Island. If if you go watch those shows, and and these were all a generation of actors that grew up during this time. So they were they were starting their career. Uh I love Lucy. Um, they were starting their careers during the peak of all this. One thing I I want to point out is that if you look at those comedies, um, MASH is another one. Um, like if you look at those comedies, they are referencing, they will always reference a lot more actors. They will reference more like Shakespearean plays, they will reference artists and poets and stuff like that. Really watch those shows from um, you know, like the 60s and the 70s because the characters and the actors reference a lot of stuff from this time period that we don't see today. Like we don't see in in a modern day sitcom, uh, the world is just encapsulated in the realm of like those five or six characters, and that's it. They don't branch out anywhere from that. Very rarely do you see anything branching out from that little world of five or six characters. Whereas if you watch, say I love Lucy and you listen to the dialogue, they're referencing all sorts of people and famous productions and producers and poets and writers and and all that stuff. So much so that for a lot of younger folks today, like they don't find any enjoyment in in those shows because like they can't understand the jokes, they don't understand the the literature, the the plays, the movies, the everything that was going on at that time. Like, you know, a younger generation is like, I I I have no idea who these people are, um, or anything like that. But yeah, it's it's it's just fun to do that. Like it like go onto YouTube and look up some of these older sitcoms and and you'll see what I'm talking about. Like they are referencing so much stuff from this time period because they grew up on it. Whereas like a lot of the younger generation today, they haven't grown up on that. They've grown up on like reality television and and all that kind of stuff, which hey, it has its place. I'm not trying to bash the younger generation or anything, but it's one of those things where you can actually see this federal one stuff and how it affected an entire generation of actors. Yeah, pretty cool. That's just me. I I'm weird like that.

SPEAKER_03 57:48

No, no, I I I agree, especially in the acting community.

SPEAKER_00 57:51

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:52

People who were super inspired by watching these people on stage perform. You know, a lot of these people were were little, little kids, super impressionable watching Shakespeare on stage because it was free, and that's just what happened to be playing at the time.

SPEAKER_00 58:06

So and I think after after the war, actually, I would say during World War II, because of this, Hollywood really started to take off.

SPEAKER_03 58:14

Oh, yeah. Hollywood really started to take off after the World War II, after the World War II, after World War II. Um, even yeah, movies during World War II were a trip. Yeah, yeah, that was a time.

SPEAKER_00 58:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:28

Maybe I'll do something on that.

SPEAKER_00 58:31

But yeah, yeah, the the yeah, from 1938, 39 through 1946, the movies that came out during those times were uh uh yeah, they were uh they were interesting.

SPEAKER_03 58:46

They were interesting, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_00 58:48

I can't really find the right words to describe it.

SPEAKER_03 58:50

Me neither. That's the problem. And I think there's a lot of reasons for that that I would love to talk about, but not right now.

SPEAKER_00 58:58

Yes, yes, you know it's already 11 o'clock at night, and we still got to get through eight more pages.

SPEAKER_03 59:04

That's right, we're doing great. Um, this is where it starts to get a little dark though.

SPEAKER_01 59:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 59:08

So FYI, two friends, just letting you know. And I and I do I have a warning very late in the show that I need to say. But it's fine. We're not there yet. Anyway, one type of performance that I found really interesting were called living newspapers. Uh the actors would come out and they'd perform newspaper articles to keep people informed about current events. It kind of reminds me of newsreels that would play at the movie theater before a movie would play.

SPEAKER_01 59:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:38

Yeah, back in the day. I just thought that was really interesting. I have no other context except for that little blurb. But I was like, how would that look? Right?

SPEAKER_00 59:49

I I feel like that was this was like like YouTube shorts.

SPEAKER_03 59:53

Maybe. I think it'd be a little bit longer than 30 seconds, considering they actually put some effort into it.

SPEAKER_01 59:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:59

But like I just thought it was really interesting that they would come out and they'd act out current events. And it's probably current events coming from overseas, I would imagine, for the most part.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:10

I would want to see the want ads play it out.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:13

The what?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:14

I would want to see the want ads played out.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:17

The want ads. Oh no. There is uh a hugely popular, scandalous newspaper thing we're gonna be talking about here very soon. Nice I would like to see played out. And I'm going to do my best to play it out for you because I have the transcript here for everything.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:36

Oh, this should be good.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:37

It's gonna be good. Over its four-year run, the federal theater project came under some scrutiny. People were claiming that the shows were propaganda for the New Deal or the federal government in the form of entertainment that was being forced upon the community. Oh no. For example, there was a children's play. I loved this, by the way. This made me laugh so hard. I died. There was a children's play called The Revolt of the Beavers. And it was about a little beaver boy who found like some community, and the community was messed up or whatever, and then they revolted against the evil, you know, bad guy and lived happily ever after. That was basically it. Okay, it's a play for children. Okay. Okay. It sounds like a like a movie for kids, right? Like uh, you know, an old Disney movie or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:34

Yeah, like a Pixar type of thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:35

Yeah, yeah, something like that. That was the whole thing. It was for kiddos. Um people were uh calling this children's play communist propaganda without even watching it. That's how bad it got.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:48

Yeah, and then it gets worse.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:50

Oh, it gets worse. There's no basis for these claims. Most of the plays are classics, and while there were some plays that did comment on current events of the period, not all of them had social commentary. Maybe it really was just about a beaver who wanted to save his family. I don't know. I read about it and that's what it sounded like. It did not sound like pop uh propaganda to me, but who am I?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:13

Well, and this has always been a long-standing argument in uh literature. Is like we we would take the this, you know, we'd take something like revolt of the beavers, and then like all of us English lip majors would like break it down to like line by line and analyze it through all these different perspectives and this and that, and then you get like the science person or the history person who's like, guys, can it just be a play about a beaver? Like, why why do we have to analyze why the color brown is important in this four scene?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:46

Like, especially exactly, especially if the intent sorry, I'm I'm I'm getting frustrated. Especially if the intended audience, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:58

Like, I don't think a kid even knows what communism is.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:01

No, it's it's crazy. Oh, yeah. Crazy. Now, there were even all black productions, which I thought was cool. They were all black productions funded by the theater project for black communities. And remember, this is Jim Crow era. Like, we are very segregated, we are very racist, we are very segregated. Um, and there was a need and a demand for that community, for the black community as well. Like, and why not give it to them, right? Like they deserve it too. So I thought that was cool that they had that. All right, are you ready for this to get even stupider? I don't think that's a word. Dumber.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:41

Uh I think stupider is a word.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:43

Is it great? Are we ready for this to get stupider? I am.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:47

No, there we go. There we go.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:49

You're welcome. In May of 1938. Okay, this this also frustrated me, but by the end, I was like, Yeah, you go, girl. Here we go. In May of 1938, Texas Congressman Martin Dyes was so offended by these communist ideas that he uh created a resolution in Congress um that he called the House Un-American Activities Committee to investigate suspected, quote, subversive uh efforts in government and society. Uh unquote.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:21

Oh yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:23

This man. Uh this man.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:25

McCarthy took it over in the 50s.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:27

Like I fully believe that very much. Uh yeah. Here's how it started. This committee was created and DIES was appointed as its chairman because, of course. At first, the committee focused on extremist groups, including the KKK, fascist groups that were popping up here and there. Um, and that to me makes more sense. But very, very quickly, very quickly, uh, like I think within a month, maybe less, uh, it pivoted its focus to communist or suspected communist groups instead. This included organizations that supported the New Deal and labor unions. So frustrating. Uh, these investigations were purposely made public. They were very public. They were always in the newspapers, uh, and they were extremely divisive. Conservative groups applauded DIES efforts, while more progressive groups of people argued that it was an overstep and the committee was acting on baseless accusations. Those were the two sides of the argument. Um, DIES sets his sights, unfortunately, on the federal theater project to investigate plays with social commentary or plays with suspect suspected communistic messages. Like Revenge of the Beavers, I hope not. The play for kids. Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:48

So Gotta rest them commie beavers.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:51

How many commies do you think he actually found out of the twelve thousand like seven hundred people who worked for the FTP in nineteen thirty? How many actual Communist Party supporters or members do you think he actually and for the record, they weren't hurting anybody.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:08

No, they probably got a newsletter. Like they somehow, they somehow got like they signed up for something at a dealership and now they get like the Communist Manifesto newsletter once a month.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:18

Yeah, or maybe they were curious because remember, this is the 1930s. We don't have they don't have the same perspective we do of fascism or communism or any of that.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:28

Better yet, they live in a country that constitution says that they're allowed.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:33

Allows them to be curious about that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:42

It's got to be less than 100.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:44

They found a whopping 36.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:47

Sick. I I feel I feel much safer that those 36 men and women and probably some children are taken off the streets.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:56

Bro, as somebody who has very much read into the 1960s and 70s, let me tell you this was.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:04

Now, how many of that 36 were beavers?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:06

That's what I want to know. That's the real question. We need to look at that before.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:11

I kind of want to look up that play.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:12

Yeah, dude.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:13

I want to count how many beavers were in there and then compare that to the 36 that were arrested.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:19

Amazing. Please do. I I will say that I could not find like a transcript or a script of that particular play, but I did find what it was about in a description of it and a poster picture. So if you want to.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:36

Like in schools and crap like that.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:38

Stop. I hate it. Awful.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:40

So and that House of Un-American Activities, like, if you ever read The Crucible by Arthur Miller, that's what that play is about. Yes, it's about the uh the Salem witch hunts and and all that kind of stuff, but it was a huge criticism of McCarthyism and this paranoia that certain politicians had about like communists uh infiltrating America, you know, better dead than red, and and all this stupid propaganda that was propping up. And it got to the point where, like, if a celebrity went to a baseball game and if that celebrity didn't order a hot dog and a beer, then they could be blacklisted. They could be put on the communist suspect list because any American, it's like that's the most American thing you can do. You go to a baseball game, America, you order a hot dog, America, and you have a beer, America. And if you don't do those, then are you really into democracy or are you part of the communist fascist regime? That that that's how insane it got.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:44

Yes, it got really stupid. I also mentioned it a little bit in our Vietnam episodes. Yeah. So go check it out.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:50

Yeah, because it it takes a long time for it to go away. It went all the way through the uh Eisenhower administration, and then Eisenhower took care of McCarthy.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:00

Yeah, so here it is being born did.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:02

Yeah, this is like the the foundation of it.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:04

Yep. So there you go. You're welcome.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:06

Yeah, so dumb.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:07

Well, now you know why it was created for the dumbest reasons.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:10

Yeah, yep. It makes me those those bloody beavers. That's a little on the nose.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:19

I hate all of it. This is all bad. This is all bad. I need to fix her name. Okay, all right. Here we go, Hallie. Miss Flanagan. Dies have been bringing FTP members to court hearings looking for any excuse to shut down the program. The FTP director, Hallie Flanagan, have been working to protect her organization very vocally, it might I add, and its reputation throughout this whole thing. Like she's talking to newspapers, she's doing interviews, she's talking to anybody who will listen to her. These people are wrong. Here's the evidence of why they're wrong. She comes with receipts. She's great. And mind you, like I said, it's in the papers. People are paying attention. This is a big deal. So this is like a scandal in the papers. Everybody's talking about it, everybody's reading about it. So I just want to kind of make sure that we are aware of like this is a thing. So Flanagan agrees to testify in court. Um, and she's talking to DIES, who's the chairman, along with some congressmen. And she agrees in December of 1938. And I just want you to picture this picture. Okay. So going to the hearing, Flanagan was on a mission to protect the theater project. And let me tell you, I have the transcript here. I read it. It's absurd, it's ridiculous. It's very long. It's not very long. Sorry. It's not very long. So I'm gonna read it. Imagine a woman, all right, standing at the witness stand, being asked about communistic activities with little to no evidence to back up those claims. All right, here we go. The chairman. Chairman, Mr. Dyes. I merely want to know the places where you have played. But if you want to discuss audiences, it is all right. Miss Flanagan. I do not want to discuss them because that allegation was made here by one of your witnesses, which I would not like to remain in the minds of any of you around this table. My impression is that you are trying to get at all the facts. The chairman, that is correct. And if this statement is untrue, we want you to refute it, Miss Flanagan. I want to quote from her allegation, Miss Huffman says they couldn't get any audiences for anything except communistic plays. Now, gentlemen, I have here the proof that it is an absolutely false statement. We have as sponsoring bodies for the Federal Theater lists of organizations covering 20 pages of this brief, which I intend to write into the record. And I will surmise them for you: 263 social clubs and organizations, 264 welfare and civic organizations, 271 educational organizations, 95 religious organizations, 91 organizations, from business industries, 16 mass organizations, 66 trade unions, 62 professional unions, 17 consumer unions, 25 fraternal unions, and 15 political organizations. Note, gentlemen, that every religious shade is covered in every political affiliation and every type of educational and civic body in the support of our theater. It is the widest and most American base that any theater has ever been built. And I request you not only write that into the record, but to read the list of public schools and universities and churches and the civic and social groups that are supporting this federal theater. She comes with receipts.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:26

Yeah, like to spot off all those stats and figures, like amazing.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:30

I love that.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:31

Yeah, she uh she was a hot ticket back then.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:34

Right? All right, here we're we're gonna continue. Congressman Joe Starnes, he says, I want to quote finally from your article, A Theater is born on page 915 of the Theater Arts Monthly edition of November 1931.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:51

Sounds dreadful.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:52

Miss Fledigan, is this the same article, Mr. Starnes? Congressman Starnes. Yes. The power of these theaters springing up everywhere throughout the country lies in the fact that they know what they want. Their purpose, restricted, some will call it, though it is open to question whether any theater which attempts to create a class culture can be called restricted, is clear. This is important because there are only two theaters which wants to take money. The other is the workers' theater which wants to make a new social order. The workers' theaters are neither infirm nor divided in purpose. Unlike any art form existing in America today, the workers' theaters intend to shape the life of this country socially, politically, and industrially. They intend to remake a social structure without the help of money. And this ambition alone invests their undertaking with a certain Marlowe-esque madness. You are quoting from this Marlowe. Is he a communist?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:53

Like, isn't Anthony Marlowe one of the famous playwrights in history?

SPEAKER_03 1:13:58

And I am not lying when I tell you the people who were in the courtroom laugh. Mrs. Flanagan responds with, I am very sorry. I was quoting from Christopher Marlowe.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:15

Oh, Christopher Marlowe, not Anthony.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:17

And then he responds with, Tell us who Marlowe is, so we can get the proper reference, because that is all we want to do. Mrs. Slanigan. Put in the record that he was the greatest dramatist in the period immediately preceding Shakespeare.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:32

Congressman Slanan.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:33

Oh, Shakespeare a communist.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:36

Wait, hold on. Congressman Starnes, put that in the record because the charge has been made that this article of yours is entirely communistic and we ought to help you. Mrs. Flanagan, thank you. That statement will go into the record. Wait, it gets better. Go for it. Congressman Starnes. Of course, we had what some people call communist back in the days of the Greek theater. Flanagan, quite true. Starnes. And I believe Mr. Euripides was guilty of teaching class consciousness also, wasn't he? Flanagan. I believe that was alleged against all of the Greek dramatists. Starnes. So we cannot say what this actually happened. This actually happened.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:19

This isn't like a satire. This isn't an SNL skit. No, this is a thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:23

This actually happened. It's in the papers.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:26

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:28

It was worth reading. That's it. That's the last of it. Now, just like you and I, this line of questioning was followed by laughter from anybody who was present, and the newspapers who reported the hearing declared it to be a very clear victory for Flanagan. Yeah. Uh, she would continue to publicly ridicule the congressman about their claims of ancient Greek poets being communists.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:52

Oh my lord.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:54

I died when I read that. I thought it was the greatest thing since ice bread.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:58

I'm blown away.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:59

Like I am fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:01

Because we've we've seen this level of stupidity take place today. Like it's just it never goes away. It never it never gets better. It's just turtles all the way down, man. Communist turtles all the way down. Supported by beavers.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:18

I like the beavers. Unfortunately.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:20

The beavers, I I I kind of want it, I want a t-shirt that like I support the beaver movement.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:25

I support the beaver play. Revenge of the beavers all the way.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:29

Right. I do love me beavers.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:32

Oh boy. Alright. Well, I hope we had a good laugh because it gets really upsetting after this. Um unfortunately, despite Flanders' best efforts, we'd we leave we love her. The federal theater project was closed in 1939 after the investigation concluded. Despite the loss of the FTP, the WPA would continue funding arts projects until 1943. Murals and statues can still be found throughout the United States. In fact, I challenge anybody to try and find something in one of their local cities if you can. Like if you're if you're living in a rural area, I don't expect you to drive three hours to the next city and try to do it. Yeah. Unless you want to. Like make a trip of it, but you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:11

Yeah. That or Google it.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:12

Or just Google Maps it. That works too. Take a tour. All right. Chapter four dissenters and offenders. We're gonna go back a little bit. Okay. We're gonna jump back in time because I promise it's relevant. Don't hate me. In 1933, an investigation was carried out into what caused the crash of 1929, led by New York District Attorney Ferdinand Picora. These investigations lasted from 1933 to 34, and they exposed executives, bankers, and Wall Street bigwigs from numerous crimes and bad practices, including conflict of interest, exploitation, tax evasion, market manipulation, and misleading lending advice, to name just a few. Are we surprised? I'm not. One of the big dogs they investigated was JP Morgan Jr. The public had basically found out that he and his partners controlled a massive portion of the economy at the time of the crash, along with committing some of these lovely malpractice practices I just listed. Uh, during a presser, which I just thought this was crazy, but it's true. There's pictures you can look at it. During a presser in the middle of these hearings, JP Morgan Jr. was holding an interview. He was talking to people, and a press agent came and placed a 21-inch tall performer, circus performer named Lynn Graff in his lap. What?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:26

Morgan took it with grace, but it did cause quite an uproar. Lots of photos were taken. I think the um idea was to embarrass him or ridicule him by putting a very small woman in his lap. I don't know. Um, but Lynn Graff actually, I I looked her up and read about her a little bit. She uh she was a circus performer who was traveling, I think, with the Ringling Brothers, um, and later died in 1941 at a Holocaust concentration camp.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:59

Um got it.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:00

But yeah, it was a whole thing. And the image that was in my head when I first read about that was wild. And then I looked it up, and it is still wild. You can find it. So yeah, just uh anytime you're at Trivia Night, you know, to be like, hey, fun fact, there's this picture that exists, you can find it on the internet.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:16

Next to the Angry Beaver website.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:18

Next to the uh the poster behind the for Revenge of the Beavers.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:22

Christopher Marlowe Toton Communist Manifestos.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:25

Well, this is also in 1933, so we're a few years before that, but oh okay. Yeah, but it's fine. All right, anyway. After these investigations were. After these investigations were concluded in 1934, they left a lasting impact on not just legislation or bank reform, but also the public's general opinion of banking executives that were previously celebrated during the Roaring 20. After the Bakora investigation, other executives would be looked into throughout the 1930s. Congress and the Roosevelt administration also put together the Securities and Exchange Commission or the SEC to help regulate the stock market and make sure everybody was actually doing their jobs and not committing the crimes that I listed not so long ago. Now, let's think back to our first episode when we talked about Black Tuesday. You remember that guy who put in a whole bunch of money to try to save the stock market? Like he bought 200 or thousand something steel stocks.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:24

Yeah. His name was Richard Whitney. He was the vice president of Wall Street. If I'm trying to jog your memory a little bit, if you don't remember, and that's okay. And he was hailed the hero of Black Tuesday. Okay. Okay. What people did not see was that Whitney had been taking out massive loans from banks owned by his brothers and friends to fund his seemingly extravagant lifestyle throughout the 30s. After this practice slowly turned into embezzlement. He was taking money from the New York Stock Exchange Gratuity Fund, which I'm pretty sure is a charity, uh, the New York Yacht Club. And on top of that, he took$800,000 in bonds from his father-in-law's estate. By 1935, Whitney and his brokerage company had gone completely bankrupt while trying to still keep up with appearances towards the general public. Because, you know, he's the hero of Black Tuesday and he's super rich. At least he's trying to be, but he's not. Whitney was a vocal critic of Roosevelt. In 1938, the SEC probed into Whitney's brokerage company. In early March, they released a report, and I found a Times article that talks about this report. And they're like, this is so scandalous. In early March, they released a report that contained over a thousand pages of Whitney's illegal activities. The report was also made public, so the general public were then was then aware of these thousands of pages of illegal activities.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:47

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:48

Whitney was arrested on March 10th, 1938, as he should be. He was sentenced to five years in Sing Sing prison, and uh he only served three. But Sing Sing's pretty crazy for imprisonment. But you know. Okay, Richard Whitney was not the only person critical of Roosevelt. There were a fair few, actually. Uh some more vocal than others. In Detroit, a very vocal priest was making his dislike towards FDR and the New Deal. Very well known. Uh Charles Kuglin, I think that's right. Correct me if I. Coughlin. Coughlin, thank you. I knew I was saying it wrong because I just watched a documentary and his name was in it. Charles Coughlin was the famed radio host of his show, The Golden Hour of the Little Flower. Sounds real cute, doesn't it? It was the name of his church. His church was named the The Little Flower or something like that. Uh in the early 1930s, Coughlin's show began as a show consisting of Sunday sermons or sharing stories, like church or mess on the radio, right? Uh it aired every Sunday, gaining listeners quickly, even attracting listeners who didn't consider themselves Catholic. Many people enjoyed listening to his stories that were being told, and Coughlin was known to have a very pleasant baritone voice that people liked hearing. Um, to be very uh transparent with you, I saw a couple snippets of his later speeches when he goes really crazy. He's not pleasant, I don't think. Maybe he was in the early days.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:15

And I'm gonna give him some benefit of the doubt here, but he kind of turned into like an Alex Jones type of thing where he's just off the rails.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:24

You'll find out.

unknown 1:23:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:27

You'll find out. Anyway. So his show was was very popular. So popular that Coughlin is or was considered one of the most influential men of the US in the 1930s. He was also prone to sharing his opinion in addition to his preaching, especially later on. Uh, he shared a great fear of communism as early as 1930, and he was spewing out anti-Semitic ideas on the show. Early on, these instances would be few and far between. However, his rhetoric would gradually get more and more racist and more political as time went on.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:01

Here we go.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:02

Here we go. At first, Coughlin supported Roosevelt in the 1932 election. He was extremely vocal and considered himself to be a big reason as to why Roosevelt won that election. So much so that he expected Roosevelt to call him up and offer him a cabinet position. When that didn't happen, and when the New Deal policies started to be implemented, Coughlin would grow to detest Roosevelt very publicly on his very popular radio show.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:29

In 1934 butter is slipping off their noodles.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:32

Oh, this man. In 1934, he created a political group called the National Union for Social Justice that had enough members to have chapters scattered throughout the US in various states. By 1935, Coughlin let loose on his anti-Semitic views, for example. And um I do want to just let everybody know this is these are the views of this man, this one person, and he's awful.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:57

Yeah, it doesn't represent our views in the slightest bit.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:00

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:01

If anything, it shows the opposite.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:03

Yeah, he's a very, very awful man, but I felt that it was important to um hear about him because it's another side of the 1930s that doesn't get talked about very often, but I think it's um part of the larger historical narrative of the time. For example, he blamed the Jewish community for the rise of communism worldwide. He blamed them for the Great Depression. And we know the variables that went into the Great Depression, that was not one of them. And he would talk about how terrible he believed they were at banking in general, which is a stereotype and an awful one. Some historians think that he kept his anti-Semitism under wraps until 1935 to keep up with the attitudes of the period. Others think that just by 1935 he got tired of hiding it. Either way, 1935 for some reason was the year that he went off the rails. The next year, he would begin publishing a magazine through this organization to spread his ideas beyond just his radio audience. In 1938, he published a pamphlet in this magazine called The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:14

Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:15

In it, he interesting. In it, he wrote about a disproven at the time, it was already disproven. A conspiracy theory, guys, everybody hit your forehead now. Conspiracy theory that Jewish people were out to take over the world by any means necessary.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:35

So it has actually gotten much worse.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:39

Oh, it gets worse.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:40

There is a group of people out there that bleed the conspiracy theory that we have like aliens with the big dumb eyes, gray little bodies that they are working for the reptilians, and the reptilians are working for the Ebans. And then Ebens ultimately answer to space Jews. And it's space Jews that like control everything that happens on Earth, and they control everything and they enforce everything by the use of space lasers.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:11

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:12

That yeah, yeah, yep. It gets infinitely more special as as time progressed.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:17

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:18

But yeah, space Jews and lasers.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:19

It all started in 1938.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:21

Yep, yep. And it yeah, and it's only gotten worse. It's just like way to go, humanity. Way to go.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:31

Take a breath, count to ten, be patient.

unknown 1:27:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:36

All right. This one, this particular entry, was outlandish enough to get a ton of public backlash. Despite the criticism, he stood by his claims, no apology, no explanation. In fact, he said that he had every right to spread this information, even if it was fault, as it was his pamphlet. On top of that, in November of that year, when Kristall Knox was still very fresh in everyone's minds after reading the papers. Coughlin defended the Nazis' actions, claiming that they were the defenders against communism. Um, and actually, honestly, that opinion was not just his opinion. There were groups of people in the United States who felt the same way.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:14

Um there was actually a Nazi movement in America.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:17

Uh, we will we're gonna touch on that briefly.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:20

Very briefly. It's like one sentence. But you can watch an entire documentary on PBS. It's very interesting. That's the one I was just talking about.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:26

It's wild.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:27

All right. Between 1938 and 1940, Coughlin's political views grew more extreme. He promoted fascism, dictatorships, authoritarian governments, believing it was the antidote to a capitalist democracy. He affiliated himself with others who had similar views and stirred up controversies with people who did not share his views. I think the most famous of them was Henry Ford. It became so controversial that some radio stations outright refused to broadcast his radio show. Good for them. Despite the controversy, Coughlin's radio show remained fairly popular. He did lose a good chunk of listeners, but by 1939, he still had a few million followers. As World War II came into the picture, Coughlin called on Americans that were some for some reason still listening to him to protest U.S. involvement in the war. He even copied Nazi propaganda to put in his magazine. So now he's starting to meddle with war affairs. Coughlin decided to retire from Ideo on May of 1940, probably because he was facing a lot of scrutiny at this point, but I'm honestly just assuming. He did continue publishing his magazine. Then, in 1942, the US government launched an investigation against Coughlin on charges of the Espionage Act.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:42

Oh Lord.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:44

Just an investigation. He wasn't actually charged for the Espionage Act, just to be clear.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:49

Still, he's making friends.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:50

But it was enough to get him investigated.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:53

His church was raided, and the U.S. Attorney General publicly stated that he was of the opinion that Coughlin's magazine was spreading Nazi propaganda. After some time in the court, Coughlin was still allowed to publish his paper, but he could not use USPS to distribute it. That was it. Like a slap on the wrist. Now, after this ruling, the Catholic Church got involved. Because at this point, the Catholic Church is like, you are making a really bad look for the church right now, sir. You are not making us look very good. The Archbishop of the Catholic Church in Detroit warned Coughlin to stop any non-pastoral activities or he would be immediately defrocked. They weren't playing. This was the thing that stopped Coughlin. He ended his magazine, he ended his radio show. It was done. He continued to preach in his church in 1966. He died in the 70s. But he he stopped immediately after the Catholic Church was like, either you stop with this madness or you're no longer going to be a part of our church. Yep. So Charles Coughlin was one of the loudest Roosevelt opponents in the 30s. He, along with some other New Deal dissenters, would continue to call the New Deal a communist government overreach. And there was also the German-American Boond that became the largest Nazi group in the United States. They were active from 1936 to 1941. I do suggest finding that documentary or reading about that. It is very interesting as to why that movement happened and why it was popular here. That's not a can of worms that I'm going to open up right now because it involves like reconstruction and racism and anti-Semitism that comes out of that and all of that fun stuff. But but it's interesting and I suggest you listen to it.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:34

Well, and there was actually a lot of Americans that when Hitler came into power, Hitler made an announcement like, hey, if you're of German descent, even if you were born in the country that you're currently living in, if you're a German descent, you have an obligation to come back over here and fight for us. So there was actually a fair amount of Americans who had German parents, and the parents would throw their son on a ship to Germany. And there was there was qu uh quite a few cases where Allied soldiers would meet like a fellow Brit or a fellow uh New Yorker or whatever who didn't even speak German and they were fighting on the in the German military. Really, really strange times.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:15

Yeah, it's a trip, man. It's wild. Um, and like I said, there are reasons why, and at least for me, but I'm weird. I understand it, but I suggest you watch that documentary. It's it's interesting. So I guess you could say that the politics of Europe were starting to creep their way into the US. We're starting to see some cracks.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:33

They're happening. All right, chapter five. Global depression. We're gonna take a tour. Let's take a tour now. Like I said in the first episode, the Great Depression was a global phenomenon. It's just that the United States happened to be the epicenter of that particular event. I wanted to briefly go over how other countries dealt with the depression in the 20s and the 30s, primarily the 30s. Uh, there are some similarities, but there are also some differences depending on how the country handled the crisis, okay? And this is going to be a very brief nutshell tour. However, there are some things I want you to um put your ears up for when we go through how each of these countries went uh through handling this event. Um, keep an eye out for German politics, i.e., Hitler and the Nazi Party, please, because that does tie in. And keep an eye out for alliances. Okay? Here we go. So in France, we're gonna talk about France first. After World War I, France had occupied Germany's major industrial sector in the Ruhr, I think that's how you pronounce it, to make sure that they were manufacturing enough to pay off the war debts. This plan wasn't exactly efficient and it fell through. In the 1920s, they moved to a border defense system called the Maginot line, I think. They were worried about German attacks and wanted Maginot, yeah, that's it. They were worried about German attacks and wanted to make sure the line was protected while recovering from the first world war. The fatal flaw in the Maginot line with that, it would be it it ended at the Belgian border. That would be a problem come 1940.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:02

Well, uh, okay. I I just want to throw something on there. Like France gets a lot of crap for that, uh, for not extending it all the way around.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:11

But I don't think they could, though, because that's literally a border to another country.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:15

The the Germans had already figured out how they're going to take care of this without having to go all the way around. Granted, a lot did. Yeah. But they what they did is they mixed their parachute troopers in with like their tank division and in with their artillery and in with their riflemen and all that stuff. So they would parachute soldiers over the Maginot line, then they would backtrack, hit the line from the side that was kind of undefended, and then they would send over the artillery and everything like that and pummel it. So the Germans understood that there is no way we want to get into a trench warfare with this Maginot line because this would go on for years and years and years. So they had to figure out a way.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:57

Yeah, nobody wants to repeat.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:58

Yeah, and so they had to figure out a way to get around or physically deal with that Maginot line. And um, there was a lot of arguments among the German high command on what to do. So, like before we give France a bunch of crap about the Maginot line, it was a huge concern to the German um army time because they they were not in a position to sustain a long-term trench warfare with the French. That was the only time I was gonna mention it, but I know this is a weird like history has been so cruel to France about that Maginot line when in reality it's just like it it was a bit more than that to the Germans. Like, we we gotta give the French some credit. A little, even though they got taken over in like a day.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:45

All right. The depression officially hit France in 1931. Economically, it wasn't a complete upheaval like it was in the States or in Great Britain, but it did have an effect on culture and politics. Unemployment and political uncertainty led to a lot of riots, notably the riot of February 6, 1934. That was a big one. Between 1936 and 1937, Leon Blum won the race for prime minister after gathering support from socialist and radical groups. He was the first socialist and Jewish person to be Prime Minister of France. Despite his victory, the Communist Party in France kept a lot of political influence. In efforts to combat the depression, the new prime minister passed economic policies such as labor reforms, 40-hour work weeks, higher wages, workers' benefits, stuff like that. He was hoping that if the laborers who did have jobs were happy that they would work harder. This approach did help a little bit, uh, but it did not help unemployment at all. Plus, there were some hurdles that blocked some of the goals. High inflation and tariffs put um a stop to higher wages for workers and it forced some employees to work longer hours. Recovery was slow and steady, but it was happening in France. Now, when the Spanish Civil War broke out in 1936, France joined Britain in an arms embargo, but did not want to get involved any more than it had for fear of the civil war, and they didn't want it to like start spreading into France. They were like, we're just gonna pump out some guns and call it good.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:10

Nice.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:11

At the time, at the same time, as that's going on, France had an alliance with Poland. Their agreement was that if Poland, Poland, Poland, Poland, their agreement was that if Poland ever went to war with another country, they would provide financial and military aid. Germany was showing worrying signs of hostility, and a lot of the surrounding European powers were getting nervous, especially after the Nazi Party came into power. During this period, France had increased production in arms to keep up with Germany's military. After 1936, the primary goal for France in terms of foreign politics was to appease Germany to try to keep peace in Europe. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:47

Oh, there's an appeasement word. There's an A-word.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:50

There's it, there's the A-word. All right, that's France. And again, this is very in a nutshell. There's so much other things going on in these countries in the interwar period. Um, and I I just I just want to make sure that we're all very aware that I'm going through this very fast. And there's a lot of culture and craziness happening and all of the fun things. Uh, we just focused a lot on the US, but we could talk for four episodes about any of these other countries in the interwar period if we wanted to. Yeah. Britain, here we go. And we're almost done. We're at the home stretch. It's midnight. Britain, because Britain had been the United States' closest ally for a very long time, they were hit hard by the crash of 1929. In fact, their trajectory in recovery is very similar to that of the US. Um, they call the 1930s the devil's decade. I just thought that was a fun fact. Demand for European exports declined, war loans owed to the U.S. were not being paid, and tariffs from both sides of the Atlantic were being issued, making the economic crisis worse. In 1931, Britain ditched the gold standard, and the British government worked with economists and industrial companies of the period to tackle unemployment. Throughout that year, banks were collapsing, they faced major foreign withdrawals, and used almost a quarter of the Bank of England's reserves to keep the economy afloat. Finally, Britain lowered the value of the British pound. This seemed to do the trick. The combination of letting go of the gold standard and devaluing the pound a little bit put Great Britain back on the road to recovery. On top of those efforts, the British government put public works projects into place to employ people who had lost their jobs very similar to the US. Their road to recovery was looking slow but optimistic by the early to mid-1930s. While Great Britain worked on economic recovery, the Nazi Party in Germany was quickly increasing its influence in Western Europe. Neville Chamberlain, the British prime minister, planned on appeasing Hitler's expansionist visions with the intention of keeping the peace. At the time, this approach was a very popular one. They also did this in France, but later it was something that was awfully criticized. But again, at the time, they're like, let's just try to keep this guy happy so we don't have to fight another war. We're going through a depression. We just got out of another war. We can't afford to do that. We just lost a whole bunch of men. It was awful. So I get it. In 1936, Hitler entered the Rhineland. Both Britain and France let him take it. Then in 1938, Hitler tried to annex Austria. War was avoided by the Munich Agreement, which gave Hitler the German-speaking sections of Czechoslovakia. Many people saw this compromise as a great victory, while some, including Winston Churchill, believed that this was a complete disaster for Europe, and he was probably right.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:24

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:24

At this point, Hitler was going against every agreement in the Treaty of Versailles. Agreements that were signed at the end of World War I. The other powers were allowing it because they were reeling for the Great Depression and the world will end, like I just said, so I get it. Finally, in March of 1939, Hitler took the rest of Czechoslovakia and invaded Poland in September. This maneuver set off a declaration of war from both France and Britain. Hello, World War II. Now, I am going to talk about this country that's not often talked about when we're talking about the Great Depression and World War II. I do want to note this particular period in Japanese history is very, very dark. It's very, very violent, and it's very, very sad. Um, I'm going to talk briefly, I'm just gonna mention it um about a particular event uh that involves some sexual assault. And I just want to bring it up to you now. If you don't want to hear it, that's fine. You can fast forward a little bit. Uh, but I just wanted to give you a warning. And if you do choose to look up these events on your own, please, please, for the love of all, use resources that are factual, that are historically and academically backed, and that don't play so much into bias. Okay. I'm just putting that out there now. Yeah. Because I think Japanese history is some of the most interesting, fascinating history in the world, but it's complex and complicated. And in order to understand the period, this particular period of Japanese history, you need to go back and back and back and back and back, which I don't have time to do. So I'm just putting all of that out there.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:04

Yeah. It's uh yeah, it it's it it's pretty horrendous. What uh well, and and I want to add on to your um to your uh disclaimer there. The Japan that you are going to be talking about here is not the same Japan that it is today.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:22

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:23

It's a very different country, completely different country, completely different mindsets, ideals, everything. Same thing as Germany. Yes, like the Germany that you see today is nothing like it was in the 1930s and 40s.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:38

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:38

So just keep that in the back of your mind.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:41

Yes, please. And in order to understand these mindsets, you really do have to go back like a hundred years, and I just can't do that right now. I wish I could because it's fascinating and it's so complex, but I just can't do it. Yeah. At least today. Maybe, maybe in the future, just to expand my own knowledge because I'm curious, but we'll get there.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:00

Yeah, I just wanted to put that out there too, because sometimes that can Yeah, no, no, that's very fair.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:04

Yeah, I like that. That's good. Yeah, very fair. So, Japan. Even Japan was impacted by the Great Depression, which I I honestly didn't know. I knew that they were impacted, but I didn't know the extent of it. And like some wide-reaching global impacts here. Their imports and exports primarily went through China and Western Europe. In the 1920s, Japan had a huge population boom of almost 65 million people who relied on the imports for food, and then they exported goods to buy the imports. So it was like a cycle. So when Western Europe was hit, their trade was impacted. On top of that, the tariffs put into place by a number of European countries in the US really hurt the Japanese economy. Due to all of these factors, Japan believed the only way out of their economic depression was by force. I will say at the same time, too, on the world stage, there was still a lot of racism towards um Chinese and Japanese people. So being diplomatic about things was a lot harder for them because they're they're fighting, you know, prejudices and racism that's going into giant global economies that are the US and Europe. So they felt that they had to take this thing by the throat, really. Uh internally, there was a lot of tension between the political and military branches of government. Uh, from here it gets really ugly and it gets really complex and confusing, but let's just put it really simply for now. Factions of military supporters uh and more westernized democratic supporters clashed with the takeover of a militant form of government, notably in Manchuria. Um, that is a big event in Asian history. I'm just briefly touching on it here, but I think it deserves more. And again, if you go to look it up, make sure you look up the right sources and all that fun stuff. On July 7th, 1937, Japan engaged in an attack on Chinese troops near Beijing, starting a war for control and economic gain. Then in December of 1937, the rape of Nanking started occurred. Uh, the name is not an exaggeration, and uh Nanking was not the only city that was pillaged uh by Japanese forces. It was a very, very brutal period in Japanese history fueled by power and economic depression. So that that's the the bit there that I proceed with caution, but also it's very important to know about and read about. Uh just do it responsibly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:30

Well, and and it's it's good to at least be familiar with it because this is a prime example of what happens when you push a nation to the breaking point. Like Japan's desperately wanted to be in that group of Western, like they want to be a part of the Western elite, and America, Britain, France, like just treated Japan like, yeah, go away. You're not you're not welcome at our our at our table during lunch, kind of a thing. And then America was threatening their oil supplies, and uh yeah, it just it just really goes to show like what happens if you um that you can inadvertently create uh a an incredible enemy if you're not careful in these situations.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:12

Yeah. In November of 1936, Japan had signed a pact with Germany and Italy. In 1940, they signed another that recognized Japan as the leader of a new order in Russia. I feel like the Germans wrote that. Uh Japan, Germany, and Italy agreed to an alliance and war if any of them were ever attacked. Despite the pact, Japan and Germany had a very shaky alliance, and neither of them trusted the other, which I thought was interesting, but it makes a lot of sense. Uh the Nazis did not tell Japan about attacking Russia or Poland for that matter, and in turn, Japan did not indulge in their little secret plan that would take place in 1941. At the same time, Britain and the United States were doing what they could in assisting the Chinese nationalist cause against Japan. When Japan took occupation in Indochina, the US responded by freezing Japanese imports, assets, and oil supply lines. Japanese officials attempted to call a meeting with Roosevelt, but they were denied due to their relationship with China. Negotiations between Japan and the United States would be ongoing, but Japan would continue with their plan to bomb Pearl Harbor in 1941. So that's Japan. Again, very complex. That's a very simplified nutshell version, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:22

Yeah, I think it was Japan. Dan Carlin did a um like a four or five part podcast, uh Hardcore History called Supernova in the East. In the East. And that like it is like the complete history of Japan all the way up to the present. He did a great job. That is well worth a listen. It it's it's like six, seven hours long, and like it's a full-on audiobook.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:42

But oh it's huge, but it's so good.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:44

Oh, yeah. It yeah, it it really breaks down everything that you just mentioned in these these couple of bullet points, um, with a great deal of detail and whatnot.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:54

So and a lot of yeah, and a lot of historical context, so you can kind of see the reasons, the whys, and all of that. So, all right. Germany, Germany, and Germany, and this one's not as big as you would expect, because I have reasons that I will tell you. After the first world war, Germany was already in dire straits economically. However, their recovery was actually fairly quick. By 1924, they had entered what many people call the golden era of the Weimar or the Weimar, sorry. Uh, culture and art were hitting at all cylinders and people were beginning to recover politically. Hitler was in prison and things were starting to settle down. Even the Nazi Party were losing popularity at that point. And then the stock market crashed in 1929. When it did, Germany's shaky but recovering economy completely collapsed, bringing the country to its knees. After Hitler was released from prison, the economy from the depression was a focal point he would use to gain support of the Nazi Party. It is now being argued, or at least talked about by historians, that if it was not for the Great Depression, the Nazi party may have died out. Instead, Hitler used the state of the economy to gain power. And if you want to learn more about that, go listen to the Hindenburg episode, where we can listen to the Weimar Republic disintegrate like six times. It's great. Um if you've been paying attention to my global tour of the Great Depression, I have already laid out Germany's march to World War II. That's why I told you to please look out for that. So if you want to hear more about Hitler's rise to power in Germany's political struggles, go check out the Hindenburg episode and maybe rewind this episode back a bit if you need to. That's cool too. Uh, maybe one day I'll do a more in-depth episode of the outbreak of World War II. Time will tell. There's a lot of episodes I want to do. That might be one. We'll see. Back in the States, Americans have been following the newspaper headlines on the events in Europe while working through their own Great Depression and watching the rise of the Nazi Party. What they were reading was pretty concerning, I would say.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:49:49

The support for isolationism in America was incredibly strong. Roosevelt was adamant that the United States would stay out of the conflict overseas for as long as they could, at least. This was especially Important for Roosevelt because by 1938, the United States was finally beginning to see the signs of economic recovery. And that's another point historians are still working on a definitive answer for. The general consensus is that the United States came out of the depression because of the war efforts and manufacturing for World War II. But now the conversation around recovery before the US entered the war is bringing up a lot of questions. If the US was already on the road to recovery in 38 and 39, would it have recovered if it stayed out of World War II? And just how effective was the New Deal? Did it work? If anything, it can be said that the war sped up recovery. So by the time it was over, the United States came out of the most came out to be one of the most prosperous world powers on the globe. And finally, the depression was over, but at what cost? How much did it cost? How many lives had to be lost? Did it did lives had to be lost to get out of that depression? We will see what historians come up with. But that's all I got. And that, my friends, is the Great Depression in four parts.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:00

So so historians are still kind of debating whether or not like getting involved with World War II was a thing that got America out, like officially out of the Great Depression.

SPEAKER_03 1:51:09

Yeah, they're asking new questions about it now.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:51:11

They're asking questions like, okay, so it looks like recovery economically was already starting to happen in 1938, four years before Pearl Harbor.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:20

Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 1:51:21

So if if we're starting to show recovery as early as 1938, can it be argued that the New Deal would was working?

SPEAKER_00 1:51:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:51:28

Or was it something else, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:51:29

Well, and and there's always been the the debate, um, and I can see where people are coming from on this, where it's like, did Roosevelt kind of steer America into getting involved with the with the World War II thing? Um like, did he position America in a way that there was it was gonna be inevitable that America was going to have to get involved, knowing that, okay, we got to build up the military, we've got to build up the industrial and military complex, we've got to build up all this stuff, and it's going to be hundreds of thousands of jobs plus getting men in uniform and all that kind of stuff. Like, you know, it did it was that like Roosevelt's like for the lack of better words, like Trump card. Like, okay, if all fails, let's go to war because we know we can make a ton of money off of it. But then you can like the the point you're making out is that well, by 1938, 39, things were starting to turn around anyways. So, like, did America really have to go to war?

SPEAKER_03 1:52:30

Right. I mean it did.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:31

So it did, but did it have to kind of a thing economically, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:52:35

It's like right. At some point it's it's like they did go to war, and this is what happened. But yeah, if we look back a little bit farther, it's more of a New Deal question, I think. How how effective was the New Deal? Yeah, you know, so Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:48

That's a lot.

SPEAKER_03 1:52:49

We did it. It was a lot. I hope you guys learned a lot.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:53

Yeah, I see what you mean. This one is like a roller coaster.

SPEAKER_03 1:52:56

Just yeah, this one was like it started out optimistic and then we went to war.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:03

But yeah, it is one of those time periods that really defined an entire generation.

SPEAKER_03 1:53:08

Oh, absolutely it did.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:09

And it um absolutely it did. Yeah, and it it well it yeah, it it kind of it kind of fostered the the greatest generation. And and I think one of the reasons being is that like, okay, we have a bunch of kids that grew up during the Great Depression, so they learned a lot from just trying to survive day to day during the Great Depression. And then a lot of these guys, they ended up going into World War II, and then they came out of the war like, man, I got like a ten thousand dollar check burning a hole in my pocket from the federal government. Um, I'm physically like in my prime. Yeah, there's nothing that I can't conquer, kind of a thing. And a lot of those, those, a lot of the men and women from that generation, they kind of grew up and they did lead pretty extraordinary lives. And there is something to be said about like um people that that survive really, really harrowing experiences like a Holocaust or a major battle or whatever, they tend to walk out of it like, okay, yeah, there's absolutely nothing that anybody can say or do to me that's gonna affect me. And they just go out there and they just conquer everything that they see. So yeah, the the Great Depression is definitely one of those things that it shaped a lot of Americans for like the next couple generations, when you re when you really think about it.

SPEAKER_03 1:54:28

Yeah, now um the historiography. Sorry, I'm getting really nerdy now. Uh, but now historians are talking about how the uh events or the social movements of the 1960s uh can be traced back to the 1930s.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:45

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:54:46

And how our current, not current, but how the political climate can be traced back to the 1930s.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:53

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:54:54

Um, so that's that's the current road that historians are at least in this particular time period, are are looking at. Uh they're making those connections.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:55:04

Which I think is really interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:06

So it's almost like a kind of like a revisit.

SPEAKER_03 1:55:08

Yeah, well, that's what that's what historians do.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:10

Well, and I and I noticed too, like uh recent years, uh the question of did Truman really need to drop the nuclear bomb.

SPEAKER_03 1:55:18

Yeah, that one's been fairly popular recently.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:20

Yeah, that that one has has come back like because like Japan was on the way out. Like they were yeah, they like they were on the way out, but it still would have cost a lot of allies their lives to take that island. So yeah, it's interesting how certain time periods um kind of okay, it happened and it really wasn't that controversial, but then over time, then those same events can kind of turn into something a little bit more heated, a bit more of like, hey, did it really have to go down this way? You know, what if, you know, and what if this and what if that and and whatnot. And I know it kind of gets tricky.

SPEAKER_03 1:56:00

Historians try to not play, yeah. Historians try to not play the what if game. That's generally a rule, like, okay, but it didn't.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:56:09

You know, it was it's more like, what happened here that caused this type of thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:16

Yeah. No, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 1:56:18

Um, yeah, but that that kind of brings me to why I did the Great Depression. Is I think as somebody who studies history and has a great passion for it, and I love it so much. I I and as somebody who is teaching it, I had a lot of students ask me, why do we have to learn this? Or I I once asked students, why do you why do you think history is important? Do you think history is important?

SPEAKER_01 1:56:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:56:39

I asked the little ones that and the little some of the little ones are like, I don't think it's important at all. Everything's about science. And then I'd get a couple other ones like, oh no, it's really important. Um take it from me. The more history you know, the more not just understanding. You don't you you have the whys, right? You have the whys for everything. But you can also go back and you can find solutions to problems today.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:05

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:57:06

You can you can go back and and find something that looks similar. It's not gonna be the same. It might be checkers instead of spots, but you can you can at least see patterns to see, well, well, this worked, but this didn't work. Why didn't it work? Okay. What can we improve on to see why didn't it work? Maybe we can fix that. And let's try it here. That's why history is important. Because you can actually have the foresight to look back and say, well, we know this happened, let's try it this way.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:57:35

And that's why we do this show. Well, we know that we failed at this. Let's learn from it and try something new.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:40

Well, and the and the one thing that really stays consistent over the centuries is human nature. Yes. And uh, you know, like I love reading about the Roman Empire because I'm middle-aged male. I we apparently we think about the Roman Empire every five minutes. Um That's what I've heard. I always thought it was World War II and how to smoke meat. That's usually what I think it's both.

SPEAKER_03 1:58:03

Yeah. All three, really. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:58:05

And you know me. I I that's probably a very true statement that I think about this stuff way too much. But but you you cannot you cannot deny the fact that human beings have always been doing human things since the beginning. And I when when I would talk about like the Roman Empire and stuff like that, hey, look, there was probably 15, 16, 17-year-old Roman teenage boys and girls. They probably had the same hormones running through them. They probably gossiped like the like they do today. They probably had their crushes and who was dating who. Like it there's no real the it humans weren't any really different back then. They had obviously different technology, and their their politics discussions every night may have looked a little different. But at the end of the day, it's still kind of the same thing. And it's just amazing how humans have been around for thousands and thousands and thousands of years, but their personalities haven't really changed all that much. People be people, and I'd say their habits, I think personalities are yeah, but I but I I think like wants, desires, needs, dreams, aspirations, uh, goals. I it it hasn't really changed all that much. And it's just to me, what I find fascinating is how humanity has shaped the past, you know, five, six, seven thousand years of Earth's history with the same set of personalities and character traits and the wants and the needs and desires and the dreams and all that stuff. It's the same core concepts of what makes a human a human, just a different setting, different time, different technology. Um, and to me, that's what I find fascinating because that that that gives us that baseline that we can look at stuff that's happening today, and then we can look up what happened in the past because you could probably find connections between what's happening today, uh, and then compare that to like Abraham Lincoln's time in the White House, compare that to, you know, Aristotle teaching Alexander the Great. Uh like you're gonna be able to find connections through all of that. And I don't know, to me, that's what makes this podcast so much fun to do, is because the other thing that humans are really, really, really good at is screwing stuff up. And I don't I can't really speak for you because you seem to like so rarely ever make a mistake, but I freaking love I I live and breathe off of my failures. Um, I kind of celebrate them, I actually like my failures. Granted, it sucks at the time that it's taking place, but every single time I've failed, I've learned something and it makes my life one a little more interesting. And two, it gives me a little more street cred with my daughters because they're making the same mistakes I did. And in three, it it's just like okay, at the end of it all, it's an interesting life to lead. Having never screwed up or made any mistakes or anything like that, it makes for a really boring existence. So don't don't be afraid of making mistakes, especially if you're trying. Like if you tried really, really hard and it and it blew up in your face, okay, cool. Own it. Get up and try again. Just own it, take responsibility for it. Nine times out of ten, the quicker that you own it, and the quicker that you take responsibility for it, the quicker it goes away.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:21

Yeah, it's true.

SPEAKER_00 2:01:22

It's when you start making excuses, is that's when it just lingers on and on and on. So, um, and then the Great Depression, and I and I like how you approach this one because it's a little different in that, yes, there was a lot of things that were going on that where humanity did try to plan everything out and it still went sideways. But again, I think it was a lot of that human nature is what kind of got everybody into these predicaments and out of them. Yeah, yeah. I'm a firm believer that the cause of the problem is often the solution to the problem. So, like, if if it's like if somebody screwed up and you know it cost you like a ton of money or whatever, all right, fine. It is what it is. Now work with that person that screwed up because they're also gonna be the ones that will ultimately be the ones that will fix it. Get in the mindset of treat of treating people as solutions to problems rather than the causes of them, uh, you're gonna go a lot further in life.

SPEAKER_03 2:02:20

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 2:02:22

And it's one of these things like the Great Depression happened, it was it must have been so easy for everybody to point fingers at everybody else.

SPEAKER_03 2:02:30

And I kind of felt and and granted, a lot of people did.

SPEAKER_00 2:02:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:02:34

I I a lot of people did.

SPEAKER_00 2:02:36

Well, and I I I kind of fell victim to it in the first episode where we kind of looked at the causes of it. And I I wanted to be like, okay, who's the one guy we can pin all this on? And you really can't. Like, there's just so many different factors, and it and it really adds on to my theory that dumpster fires can also take place with or without you, but they can they still affect you.

SPEAKER_03 2:03:00

Yes, especially one that involves literally an entire population, yes, of beavers and farmers, yeah, and farmers, yeah, but really the beavers, beaver farmers, like they're the true victims in all this. I think they're the hero of this story. I like how I went with hero and you went with victim.

unknown 2:03:18

Right.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:20

Uh notes of visions of commie beavers and guys, please look that up.

SPEAKER_03 2:03:27

Revenge of the beavers. There's a poster.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:29

Dude, if anybody has an original copy of it, that would be epic. That would be so I want it.

SPEAKER_03 2:03:35

It's it's probably in some museum somewhere.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:38

So yeah, no, great joke. Right. That was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_03 2:03:41

Thank you. Um, I'm proud of it. I'm I this one in my prohibition series, this one's longer, I think. This is 60 pages. Yeah. 60 pages of notes, guys. So I never want to hear a student ever again tell me that they cannot write two paragraphs.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:55

Right. I know.

SPEAKER_03 2:03:57

So, all right, everyone, thank you for listening and thank you for holding in there with me talking about the dirty thirties. I appreciate it. Remember, if you want like a full scale picture, uh, go also listen to the Dust Bowl and the Hindenburg Fire episode, both of which will cover a lot. Otherwise, we uh do have a website that you can check out www. at the daysdumpsterfire.com. You can email us at thedaysdumpsterfire at gmail.com. We do have an Instagram that I try to keep updated, but I'm really bad at it. So uh just take it for what it is. And um, we hope to see you next time with Ed's very contemporary 2016 event. I'm sure you were all very excited after um sitting here in the trenches with me. Yep, and I appreciate it. Past couple of months of the 1930s. Yeah, we're gonna we're gonna make it a little bit more contemporary for you. Maybe I'll take you back to the medieval time just just to help you out.

SPEAKER_00 2:04:50

We're due for a medieval one, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_03 2:04:52

We're we're due for a medieval episode, I agree. So yeah, stick around. We hope to see you in the next one.

SPEAKER_00 2:04:58

Alrighty, guys. Keep it a hot mess.

SPEAKER_03 2:05:00

Bye.