Brad 0:08

Joash, it's good to be back with you.

Joash 0:10

Good to be back together.

Brad 0:12

Today we're filming in Joash's studio, which is pretty exciting. First time for me here.

Joash 0:20

First time being called a studio, it's generally an office. I'll take it.

Brad 0:24

But that's the magic of the movies. That's what we do. So I've had a like a lot of conversations lately, a lot of things on my mind. But something that I just I keep coming back to is this enormous. It's not even a discrepancy, it's a chasm that exists between Jesus' approach to enemies, whatever that might mean, might be interesting to think about that, versus Western Christianity's obsession, almost paranoia with particular enemies. And that dissonance between those two things is well, it's impossible to square because they don't belong together. I'm from what I can tell, you know, Jesus' ethical command to love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you. The kind the way that the Western Christian movement has typically responded to its perceived enemies, its real enemies and its imagined enemies, to me is not an a logical outgrowth of Jesus' teaching. It seems like it has been overridden in many different ways. And so there's so many different like ways we could go down, um, so many different paths we could go down. But I'd love to hear just from the at the beginning, when you when I talk about this, when I talk about loving your enemies, when I talk about the church making enemies, like where do you first go?

Joash 2:08

Yeah, so many different places. Like it's almost like we have broadened the scope of it and narrowed the scope of it at the same time, right? And so I'm still like processing this out loud a little bit, but so we're definitely narrowed the scope of enemy. Like I had um Munter Isaac um on my Masala Chai Theology podcast, Substack, yesterday. And uh he's a he's probably the most prominent Palestinian church leader right now in the public square, challenging the Western church's imagination. And uh, you know, I clip a part of our conversation where he talks about enemies, where he's like, Yeah, the problem is um so many Western Christians think that their neighbor whose dog is always barking is the enemy, or uh the person at church who wants to rearrange the seating of the pews, that's the enemy. Um, and not um our our like the Samaritan, not um the people we want to deport, the people um uh we we don't want to be um queer, you know. Uh and by we I mean collectively as a society, the way we oppress our queer neighbors. Um and and so we uh I don't just think that we're wrestling with the question, who is our neighbor? I also think we're wrestling with the question collectively of who is our enemy. Um if we are wrestling with it at all. Yeah, what do you think?

Brad 3:31

Yeah, that makes me think of because a lot of us, especially, you know, white North American Protestant Christians grew up in a Christianity that was middle class and like middle classified, where you know, I remember hearing things like someone would talk about, you know, we all sin, and it would be this hokey everyday example of like getting angry in traffic and like maybe saying something you didn't want to say. It's hokey is the word that comes to mind, and that's the same thing when like when you're talking about enemies, the person rearranging the pews, the person you know, mowing their lawn at 7 a.m., your neighbor, and being like, Well, Jesus says I have to love my enemy. It's like those aren't your enemies, those are like that's an annoyance. Yeah, and that's your neighbor, actually. That's just your neighbor. Yeah, don't put don't get them in that enemy category. The demand to like love the enemy is a lot more radical and probably like a lot more offensive and even stomach turning, yeah, enraging to hear Jesus say that, as opposed to like, oh that's a good ethical teaching. I feel like it if it's not at least eliciting some sense of like well, you just don't get it, Jesus. Like, do you know what they they did to us? Like, what about justice? Call down thunder from heaven, Jesus. So I feel like the white the white Western Protestant is really in no position to be teaching anyone about the the very radical and impossible love of enemy. Like we don't know the first thing about it. And I think partially that's because if you look at things on a global scale with colonialism in mind, it's like we've been the enemy. Wow. Like we've been the enemy of of humanity in a lot of ways. So maybe that's why it's there's like a real myopia of not being able to even begin to see what Jesus is talking about. And then a Palestinian who knows something about having an enemy and being targeted as an enemy, those voices need to be amplified to 11. And the educated white seminary going reformed person needs to have it turned way down.

Joash 6:03

Yeah. Man, you just I mean, things just got really, real, real fast there. Um yeah, the reality is that so many of us have been conditioned by umpire to see ourselves as the saviors, as the good guys, right? And I think historically speaking, you do the worst things when you're convinced that you're part of the good guys. You know, uh, we're the good guys, we can't do any wrong. But I think the teaching, the teachings of Jesus subvert this so much because Jesus invites people he's speaking to who are poor and oppressed in their context too. And he's telling them as well, hold up a mirror, you know, hold up a mirror. Like um, you know, look for the plank of wood in your own eye before trying to remove the speck of dust in your neighbors, in your brothers, sisters. Because when you don't do that, um, you end up not being self-aware and you end up being the enemy to someone else. And in the Palestinian church's case, even, as Munter Isaac and people at um the Bethlehem Institute for Peace and Justice, who I sit in the advisory council for them, um, folks like them would say that the Western Church has been their enemy. Like, and these are Palestinian church leaders, Palestinian evangelical church leaders saying, Hey, Western Evangelical Church, you've been the enemy to us by your participation and alignment with your Western empires.

Brad 7:24

When I'm just curious, you know, you're a priest. I am not. And I think sometimes it's important to acknowledge that. Like we just we have different roles.

Joash 7:34

Yeah, yeah.

Brad 7:34

But I'm just curious, you know, history is my thing, looking at identifying patterns across the centuries within Christianity. And um the thing I don't like, I don't teach about because I don't I'm not a teacher of is is the Bible. Like I don't I don't do that. Uh I'm interested in how the Bible was used in different times and places, what things meant in different languages and contexts. But I'm just curious, like straight up, when what what do you what's going on when Jesus is saying love your enemies? Like what is what's what's he doing? What's he actually saying? Um what what does this mean for like real flesh and blood people? Especially in this, you know, the post-colonial context of this long, many decades now, but when there's many to go of ref reflecting and reckoning with the Christian colonial past. Like what is it, what's he saying? I genuinely want to know like your thoughts.

Joash 8:41

Yeah, yeah. And you know, it is quite sad that you know, in even the Christian Academy, you've had this idea of um the church or the priesthood separated from um from everyday life, from other fields of studies. Um and I think the best biblical interpretation is always going to be from a very interdisciplinary lens, um, an anthropological lens, a sociological lens, a historical lens, a geographical lens, right? And so many of us have been taught by Empire Shri of Christianity across the global church uh to read our Bibles uh through a particular lens, um, and someone else's lens. You know, John MacArthur, for example, um, massive hero in the Reformed American evangelical world. Um, last time I went to a Christian bookstore in India, two-thirds of the bookstore were filled with John MacArthur books, right? And uh again, like I think I write a little bit about this in the book, in my book as well, where I'm like, you know, like just remove the fact that MacArthur and his theology were so problematic, um, so harmful. Like I literally know a Canadian Mennonite family that has stopped talking to each other because half the family uh went full MacArthur because of his theology, and then the other half, you know, um, are not. They're not part of that cult, so they've been shunned by the other half of the family, right? Uh and the other half who have been shunned are part of a evangelical non-denominational megachurch. They're still part of the evangelical world, but they've been shunned. So again, I mean, MacArthur's theology has done this in India too. But regardless of that, like you still have um you still have so many Indian theologians and writers and authors uh in India, not even people like me who are in the West. So why aren't their voices represented? Why are we not contextualizing theology there? But there's this framework of no, we have to read the Bible John MacArthur's way, um, or John Piper's way, or you know, Charles Spurgeon's way. Um and and when you do that, you're not trusting the Holy Spirit at work in you and in your context, uh, with your expertise and the sciences and history, geography. Um, so I think, you know, it's it's really sad to me that we don't get more interdisciplinary in our interpretation of scripture. Um, something I start to say more and more to my students at St. Stephen's University, where I now teach, is we have to be reading the Bible through not just a trauma-informed lens, which is absolutely important, um, but also an empire-informed lens. Um, and reading Jesus in his context through an empire-informed lens, through a historical lens, uh, anthropological, sociological lens, will show us that when Jesus was saying, love your enemy, back to your original question, um, he was saying something that was so countercultural, so radical.

Brad 11:41

Because Jesus is speaking to occupied peoples.

Joash 11:44

Yes. And and he's telling those folks, um, you know, like, yes, like there's acknowledgement, the harms, but he's telling those folks, you love those who have harmed you, um, and and and go the extra mile. And not just the empire, but love also those that empire has conditioned you to hate. Other marginalized people groups, like the Samaritans um in your context, who empire has conditioned you to see as heretics because they believe in some of the scriptures and not all of the scriptures, because their racial lines aren't pure enough as yours. You know, just just stuff like that. Um, and again, um, something that I've increasingly become more and more convinced of is that if we get better at cultivating the eyes to see empire in the Bible, I think we'll also get better at cultivating the eyes to see empire in our world, in our context, and and not just empire, but also those that oppresses and dispossesses back then and in our day.

Brad 12:38

I'm wondering if um there's something here. Again, this is just wondering out loud, right? There are the enemies, like you were just talking, you the way you were saying it made me brought this out. Yeah. There are the enemies that you know, empire or I think I have a feeling that in the New Testament the the use of the phrase the world is probably similar to what the way you're saying empire.

Joash 13:04

Yes.

Brad 13:05

Rather than like the earth or the society around us. It's I think that that to me is a is one of the post-secular developments where Christians now on the defensive are trying to associate world with society. Like the world means being like wary of society, because for the first time in 1700 years they weren't in control of everything. But I feel like the world, if we translated that the empire, it might make more sense.

Joash 13:35

I would even clarify. So what I what I actually communicate the world as at any time I teach scripture that has the world in it is the empire-shaped world. Because whether we recognize it or not, our world is shaped by empire and systems and powers and principalities of darkness that harm that, as Jesus teaches in John 10 10, come to kill, steal, and destroy like the thief. But Jesus comes with the body of Christ, the church, to give life and life to the fullest.

Brad 14:06

That's great. That's good, that's helpful. Empire-shaped world. And that does run our world.

Joash 14:14

No doubt.

Brad 14:14

Like that's the that's the machinery pumping behind the scenes, even in our face.

Joash 14:21

Yes.

Brad 14:22

But okay, what I what I wanted to get to was there are the enemies that the empire-shaped world tells you are your enemies. And then there are the enemies that actually like hurt, maimed, killed, abused your loved ones or community members or something like that, right?

Joash 14:47

Yeah. Because to them too, empire has told them and shaped their imaginations, right? So so it's all interconnected in that way.

Brad 14:55

It's interconnected. I'm just wondering if it's like Jesus, when he talks about loving your enemies, he is. I mean, that's not that isn't when he first goes to the Samaritan story, but that's what we kind of we're like, who's who's an enemy? Well, a Samaritan's an enemy. Are they really? Like, have they done anything to you? Or Jesus calls him the neighbor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fascinatingly, to your point. Are you it's I don't know. In my this is what I'm trying to say. The that teaching of love your enemy is very if it is wielded by those in power, it is a really dangerous um moral tool for them to maintain control over people. Because they can say, you know, isn't that that article that just came out in Christianity today, which I did not read, but I read who wrote about it? Like Love Thy Love Thy Trillionaire. And I'm just like, to me, when I hear that, I'm like, that's what I mean. That's the bastardization of that's the powerful someone in a position of social like privilege, yes, saying, Well, it extends to trillionaires too. And what that really is saying is so don't act against them.

Joash 16:09

Yeah.

Brad 16:10

And I'm like, that there's no way that that's what this like no Jesus was trying to say. Not at all. And so it's like, this is what I'm I'm trying to get to is yeah, I wonder if we wanted to put into practice love your enemy. That's probably a lifelong multi-generational kind of thing to put into practice. I wonder if a good place to start is not necessarily right now with the person who has harmed you the most, but with those people who you are told by your culture to hate and avoid that are the enemy. So, example, for a for you know, the average American Christian told that the Muslim is their enemy in a million different ways over the last 30 years. And it's like isn't a step in the direction of loving your enemy just deciding to start treating your Muslim neighbor as a neighbor instead of as an enemy. And that also, but this is the part that evangelicals won't like. That would also include because treating your neighbor like a target to be converted is treating them like an enemy.

Joash 17:28

Absolutely.

Brad 17:29

Because it's a target, and what do you do to a target?

Joash 17:32

You shoot a target, you kill, steal, or destroy.

Brad 17:35

Yeah, and so it's like that that got mutated and morphed into the ultimate act of love.

Joash 17:42

Yeah.

Brad 17:43

And that is because of the threat of hell. Because once you introduce the, as we talk about either on screen or off-screen, when you introduce hell, it becomes the thing the whole show is about. Because how could it not? And then it turns targeting your neighbor with really a propaganda-like message of like I'm gonna bombard them with this message until they change. You're treating them like an enemy and you're calling it love.

Joash 18:10

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that I think is perhaps the greatest tragedy of it all. I think evangelicalism has been so co-opted by the American Empire in our day today, um, that evangelicals all over the world see the Christian task as um decimating the beliefs of people from other religions or no religion, right? Um that's seen as your task as a Christian. Not loving God, not loving neighbor, uh, not loving God by loving neighbor, the greatest commandment, right, that Jesus directly gave us. No, we have um invented this colonial era conspiracy theory called the Great Commission, which I historically talk about in my Substack in a series called Decolonizing the Great Commission, where yeah, you know, it's it's before, I mean, we could go into all that, but I mean, reality is before the colonial era, no one was calling that text the Great Commission. Um, Jesus doesn't say the words the Great Commission either. Um, and and it was it was, you know, translated uh and added as a title, as a subtitle to that text in Matthew. Um, and so again, and it was done to control the evangelical imagination of this is what it is to be a Christian. It's to be uh a soldier, a warrior for Jesus, um, and not to be an ambassador of peace and reconciliation. So so many of us sign up to be Christians, but what are we converted to? We're not converted to pursue justice and peace like Jesus in the early church. We're not converted to ask questions that threaten the status quo. We're converted to serve um, you know, a feudal capitalistic class of um empire's preferred people with status, like the trillionaires, which is how we end up getting really weird theology like love thy trillionaire, when there's literally one trillionaire who has clearly stolen money from the poor, stuff that the Bible talks about. He has shut down, personally, shut down USAID programs, which you know are problematic, but they were doing good. Millions of kids are now dead because of that in just a year. He's shut that down and enriched himself with billions of dollars of government contracts, and that's how he's become a trillionaire. And and instead of concern for the poor and the oppressed, this concern for the one trillionaire on planet Earth right now.

Brad 20:30

And it's that attempt to it's this, it's kind of this attempt to maintain the status quo by universalizing things. Because, you know, you talk about the preferential God, the the liberation theology is God's preferential preference for the poor. Yeah. He stands on the side of the oppressed. And the middle class white evangelical hates that because and can't and calls it heresy, calls it unbiblical, because they they they swiftly move to the universalizing move, which is, well, no, it's um God's God loves all people. And you're like, okay, I but what you're doing, you're not actually trying to make like some more inclusive point. What you're trying to do is say, we don't really have to act in a different way. We don't have to change anything because the the poor and the rich, they're all the same ontologically or something like that, right? Yeah. Instead of being like, well, maybe the kingdom of God, as you know, we say in English, maybe it has a a process, a particular way it moves.

Joash 21:37

Yes.

Brad 21:37

And it sounds like it starts with uplifting marginalized groups, empowering them, what you know? Yeah. And you'll get to the rich at the end.

Joash 21:50

Yeah. Well, I mean, um and this is a part that I think evangelicals don't wrestle with, which is why I talk about this more and more. What does Jesus Do every time he comes across a rich person? What does he invite the rich person into? Like the rich young ruler? He invites them to sell everything they have, give to the poor, and then follow Jesus. That's Jesus' invitation to people with wealth and privilege in empire-shaped societies, like his context and in our context too. I mean, scripture can't be more clear about that. Jesus can't be more clear in his teachings to the rich. Again, when Jesus says it's easier for uh, you know, the rich for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven, you know, with all their wealth and privilege. That's what Jesus is talking about, right? But the reason why, like, have we ever wondered why these aren't prioritized teachings in the church and especially in the evangelical church today? It's because we've lost our saltiness. We have aligned with empire and we have watered down the gospel to be something that protects the status quo instead of questioning it anytime people are poor and oppressed.

Brad 23:02

And I mean, the this is no longer just rhetoric. Like the the era that we're living in, the climate crisis, protecting the status quo is doom. Like this isn't just, oh, that's too bad. It's it's sad. It's not about being sad, it's not about being immoral, even. It's about like we're gonna ruin everything. Yeah, like protecting the status quo is you know who's not satisfied with the status quo is the billionaire. They aren't satisfied with the status quo, they want more. And and not just more money, but more leverage, more power. Like they're out there doing their work to protect their like what their status.

Joash 23:47

Yeah.

Brad 23:48

And we are a lot of us are in the churches are falling for just basically it's like an anesthesia. Where it's like that, I've because I've I've thought about this before. An opiate? Like an opiate of the masses. I never said that before. I wasn't even thinking that, but that's that's it, yeah. That's it. Exactly. It is an opiate.

Joash 24:13

Maybe Marx was onto something there. You know, you don't have to buy into everything that Marx does, which most of what he does is just critiquing capitalism, which is a product of colonialism. We can talk about that. But but but Marx did famously say that religion um is the opiate of the masses. And I wonder if the religion that Marx was presented with, the version of Christianity that he saw in Europe in the colonial modern era, um, was perceived to be the opiate of the masses for his time. Um, because again, um, I was in Manchester in the UK a couple of weeks ago, uh, and Manchester has this rich history of shaping people, um, voices for justice, from Dietrich von Hoeffer to Karl Marx, uh, to some of the first women suffrage suffragist uh movement leaders, um, and everyone in between, right? So Marx and Hegel studied there, actually got to visit Manchester Cathedral. Right next to the cathedral is a library that Marx and Hegel would study at all the time. Um, we don't hear stories of them hanging out at the church, the cathedral, we hear stories of them hanging out in the library. Um because Manchester was like an industrial mega site, right? That's it. Okay. That's it. And and the reason why it was such an industrial mega site, um, like much of northern England, is because of colonialism. So uh industries, entire industries in India, places around the world were shut down by the British Empire, um, and a working class was created in uh places like Manchester. And and these were folks who were suffering under the Brute of Empire, but had bought into empire-shaped frameworks and and the economics of it was what Marx was critiquing by saying, Hey, working class folks, this system isn't working for you, but you have bought into religion that just numbs your senses to what's going on around you.

Brad 26:06

Yeah, because you weren't seeing like that's the what Marx is like in the 1840s and 50s, is that right? That's right, yeah, yeah, about that time. 1860s, I I forget the exact decades, but mid-19th century. Yeah. Um, and you didn't see that, that was like the height of British Empire. Yeah. When they were, you know, plundering your homeland. Yeah. And David Lemingston and South Africa Malawi, yeah. Yeah. And you didn't see uh critiques of that coming from churches.

Joash 26:38

Yep.

Brad 26:40

Very rarely. And so yeah. That's that's a wild like thing to stumble into. Like I really when I said anesthesia, I really didn't wasn't thinking of opium. It's just kind of wild, but yeah. Okay, where it is leading me is yeah, I I don't A, I don't think this conversation is going to s like solve the question like how do you love an enemy? Um and I think that is something that meant to be there like this stone that can't be moved. You're like, you have to keep you can't avoid it. Because in the church's history, yeah, the church made many different enemies. And that is common to humanity. There that that is something that all people do. So what's different? What's different is that the that Christian churches and society developed a very sophisticated machinery for locating enemies. Like that's what it what it did. And not every every society has enemies, but not every society develops intense machinery for finding them. You know, like I my where my mind goes immediately is to like the Haudenosaunee culture. And did the Haudenosaunee have enemies? Of course they did. Every group does. Did they have like uh hostility and war? Of course. Like there's no need to romanticize, but they had ceremony for they had brilliant ceremonies that were capable of a turning strangers into family. One of the most ingenious, I call it like a social technology. Um, the Haudenosaunee and Anish Nabeg too had these incredible technologies for making strangers like a French European into a family or a can into kin, which brings with it obligation, right? It's it's genius stuff. And they also had like the Haudenosaunee condolence ceremony was a way of basically kind of publicly formally processing grief and um what's the word? Like when you know wrongs had been done to you.

Joash 29:13

Yeah.

Brad 29:14

And the yeah, really. The Haudenosaunee did not have complicated technologies for finding, like search and destroy. Um, and that's that's really worth like investigating. Wow. I think you know, you know, as I do, I like to look at the church's history kind of through a family dysfunction lens and be like, let's go back and see like what happened. The same way if you with a family like you know, a family of who have immigrated, a lot of the experiences that happen in that immigration process can really shape the next generations in sometimes in unhealthy ways, right? Like a scarcity mindset or uh like kind of status focus, because you have you had to really fight and protect your vulnerabilities in order to survive in a new society, right? And that gets passed on. Um self-hatred too. Yeah, yeah. Making yourself the enemy. Right. So when when someone starts to like wonder why do I, you know, struggle with self-loathing or something. Sometimes going back into that family history can really help because you're like, oh, is that where it started? And it's not a magic spell, it's not like a cure. You discover, oh, your grandma went through this, and that explains these ripple effects. But I was saying this last night in a seminar I was leading. It's not magic to go back in history and find where the pain started. It but what it does do is it grows your capacity.

Joash 30:54

Wow.

Brad 30:55

It grows your heart. And I have this growing belief that when your heart grows, new possibilities can, new things that you might not have even conceived of before, new solutions, new can take to start to grow because you've opened up the space. That's a long-winded way of saying I like to go back into the church's infancy to see like what happened here.

Joash 31:22

Yeah.

Brad 31:22

And what's what's unique there and different than say the enemies of the Haudenosaunee or something, yeah, is for the Christian, the enemy was defined by belief, not by like ethnicity or something like that or territory. Because when your enemy is defined by territory, you're like, I know where they are. When it's defined by ethnicity, you're like, I know what they look like and sound like or dress like. But when your enemy is defined by belief, that's invisible. And so for the early church, living, I think we talked about this once before. I said that they're most like undocumented people, right? Living kind of an illegal under-the-radar existence, not always suffering violence and persecution, but the threat of it. The threat of being turned in to the authorities at any time hangs over you. And one of the biggest threats that the early Christian communities faced was like lying informers within their community. People who would be kind of there spying on this illegal movement. And you, you know, you spurn your enemy, you upset your neighbor. We know how vicious people can be, neighbors can be. When again, silly things like you mowed your lawn too early, they report you to the HOA or whatever it's called. Like, thankfully, I don't have one of those. But like imagine that kind of dynamic, and you're like, hey, they're a Christian, like we turn them in, then the Roman state has to act. And so they learned how to identify the enemy in their midst that shared, that looked like them, sounded like them. And that creates this really this like launches this trajectory that once the persecution ends and Christians begin their quick ascent to power and privilege and authority, that doesn't go away. In fact, it actually ramps up.

Joash 33:25

Yeah.

Brad 33:26

And now you start hunting the heretic because they kind of are like you. They're sort of Christian, but they're not.

Joash 33:32

And they won't conform either. You confront them, you give them an opportunity to repent, they reject you. So now you kill them. Right.

Brad 33:40

Yeah. So it's kind of to me, it's like that's the that's the root, deep, deep down, where it's like it comes from a place of initially of real vulnerability. But then as the church's history progresses and it develops and it goes through all kinds of other things, it it really doesn't prioritize Jesus' command to love your enemy. Maybe sometimes here and there you'll find it in, you know, like in a monastery, for example, like the Benedictine monastery had to accept any stranger who came through the door. Like that was part of their what they committed to. And I'm like, that that's something to emulate. That's something to understand and explore and be like, feel that that grows your heart. Don't you feel it? Yeah, you feel it when you start to imagine like this poor bedraggled stranger stopping at he knows he or she knows that that door is safe. That grows your heart. Unfortunately, those stories are not the not the main takeaway from Christian history.

Joash 34:51

Yeah, yeah.

Joash 34:52

No, I think you're so right. Um, one of the people, and speaking of the Christian tradition and people in there who did get things right, who do teach us even today, one of the people, one of the saints really, who's taught me so much about really not otherizing people that or or beings in creation that people tell you our empire tells you uh is the enemy. Um, a saint who's taught me much in that would be the saint whose icon I have back here, uh, one of them who is Saint Francis of Assisi. Um, you know, in almost every icon of Saint Francis, you see Francis with a being in creation, a bird, uh a tree, uh, an animal. Um, because that was his theology. You know, Franciscan theology really expanded my imagination of Christianity. Um, there's this fascinating story, and I'll connect this a little bit with a recent backcountry camping experience I had. Um, I guess I'll start there. So I went on my first backcountry camping trip recently in northern Ontario. Um came back home two days before the wildfires got started in that same area. So um, so I should have been concerned about wildfires and man-made disasters uh the whole time because you know, we wiped out our indigenous neighbors' knowledge and our indigenous neighbors took care of the land. They knew how to uh deal with situations like this, but you know, we we wiped out their knowledge. Um but uh but on that backcountry camping trip, um I was terrified of the idea of getting mauled by a bear uh at any point in time. Um and I've been conditioned to see creation as the enemy because I grew up in a city. And um I grew up in a city that had a national park nearby in Mumbai. And um, you know, there were constant threats of leopards and tigers that would eat people. Um, and of course, because we were encroaching on their territory, right? But, you know, it was it was so I couldn't be present my first two days on this backcountry camping trip because all I could think of was I'm in the middle of nowhere, no self-service. What if a bear shows up, right? And then as a way to heal, create another neural pathway to that fear that I've been conditioned by umpire, I started thinking, what would Saint Francis say right now? What would Saint Francis do in this situation? And there's this beautiful story of Saint Francis and a wolf. I don't know if you've heard of this one. Um, it's it's it's believed to be a true story in the Franciscan tradition where Francis walks into a village and the village is like, we're terrorized by this wolf. So Francis is like, okay, I'll go talk, I'll go meet with the wolf. Um, and so he shows up to um this wolf's lair or whatnot, and then he directly engages in conversation with this wolf because that's how you know chill Saint Francis was with creation. Um, he believed that we communed with Creator God together with creation. So he went to uh this wolf and he's like, Brother Wolf, you're hurting your your brothers and sisters and creation. You gotta you gotta stop doing that. And then he turns to the villagers and he says to them, and by the way, you need to feed this wolf. This wolf, brother wolf, is hungry. Um, and and that's why Brother Wolf is out attacking your village. Brother Wolf has to take, uh, because Brother Wolf is dying of hunger and has scarcity. Um, and so the next thing you know, the villagers start making food offerings to Brother Wolf. Uh, brother Wolf stops attacking the village, they build this relationship, and when Brother Wolf died many years later, the whole village threw a funeral for Brother Wolf because he'd become such an important part of their community. And so, as I was out there in Brother Bear or Sister Bear's territory, I was like, you know, Brother Bear, Sister Bear probably has all this generational trauma of human beings uh attacking and uh stealing and destroying. And it's understandable that Brother Bear is terrified of me. Um, so I don't think Brother Bear would attack me for no reason. Uh, I think there would have to be a reason. And there are things that I could do to convince Brother Bear that I'm not a threat. And so what happened in my brain then through my theology, my spiritual processing through Franciscan theology was um I I need to stop otherizing to be more safe. And and when I stop otherizing, this being in creation that empire has conditioned me to fear and hate, um, there's a part of me that heals too. Uh, and then I can be more present and appreciating and being one with Christ and all of his creation. Uh, so that's what I processed in my spiritual direction session right after.

Brad 39:29

You know, where I went that. Yes, please. Where I went there. Those are great. I love that. That brother wolf. Okay. First, just this sort of side thought. Yeah. Um just offering this image because the, you know, that's the Italian Francis is from Assisi, the Italian peninsula, it's like the heartland of Rome, right? And I'm just thinking this image of Francis and the wolf, and then the village coming to like love the wolf. You know, you assume the wolf then also can protect them. And there's this like mutual relationship, and that image is in my head. And then it contrasts that with the other popular Roman image of wolf, yeah, which is like Romulus and Remus. Yes, the found the mythical founders of Rome, you know, raised by wolves, drinking the milk of the mother wolf. Yeah, uh, that's always the picture, right? They're drinking the wolf wolf's milk. Right. But that is like them taking the wolf's like ferocious power to like conquer. And those two images are just sitting side by side in my head. Because they're like, that's the same land. Yeah, it's the same place.

Joash 40:40

Probably the same species of wolf.

Brad 40:42

Probably. Um so that that's I don't have anything, any analysis there. It's just that's what's sitting in my head. The other thing is, you you know, I think you kind of gave it away the the one of the secrets of this loving your enemy thing, which is you're up in is this is this in Algonquin, or where were you? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you're in Algonquin Park, which is like as close to wilderness as we get, right? It's like straight up.

Joash 41:09

Yeah.

Brad 41:10

And you say you kind of realize how afraid you are of nature, how afraid you are of the forest, yeah, how afraid you are of the animals. Very, very uh Canadian, actually, of you because the early the Canadian settlers, nothing that they hated more and feared more was than the forest. Wow. The forest was their great enemy, the thing to be conquered, uprooted, ripped out. Southern Ontario has, like where we are right now, yeah, has some of the best farmland on earth. Yeah. And yet, so people get upset when they're like, I can't believe we're gonna pave over it. Like, and it's like the farm itself, the farmland was a paving over of the forest. That's it. This is a forest, this is the woodlands, yeah. Which is protected by our indigenous neighbors for how who knows how long? I'm immemorial. Yeah, but it's like you when you said you're afraid of the forest, yeah. It's like the in immediately it's like something lights up, and it's like, well, what would it mean? The forest is your enemy. What would it mean for you to love your enemy? What would stop you? What would slowly quell the fear? Yeah so that you would no longer fear your enemy, the forest? And the answer is obvious, right? It's time and knowledge. Learning, spending time with the forest, learning its ways, respect, respect, time, knowledge. And you're like, oh, that's if you have if one of your neighbors is Muslim and you fear them, what's the what does it look like to love your enemy? Well, it looks like time, respect, knowledge, you know, because that's how you would come to love the forest.

Joash 43:03

Wow. Wow. And this is what Jesus does for us. Yeah. Time. He puts in 33 or whatnot years on earth, right? Um, not counting the time in his mother's womb and Mary's womb. Um uh respect. He respects a tradition, a way of knowing Creator God. Um and other people like the woman at the Samaritan woman, he respects her. That's right. Two. That's right. And the Roman centurion and and all the different people he came into contact with, different ways of knowing. He respected them, did try to convert them. Um, and and uh time, respect, and most knowledge, yeah. He he honored the knowledge at the same time. I mean, you know, Jesus being part of the Trinity, um, obviously had knowledge, had divine knowledge, fully divine, fully human, but still became a student of you know, local rabbis and teachers and learned the prayers of. That tradition, I mean the humility it takes to do that as creator God. Um so again, you know, Jesus doesn't invite us as Christians to do something that he hasn't first done himself. He doesn't invite us to go to places he hasn't gone himself. Um, but but we struggle with this because um we're so shaped by umpire, which is so pervasive. And yeah.

Brad 44:21

And empire has no respect for time. Um right? It's like it's about as much as possible, as quickly, as permanently as possible. Yeah. Like because when I say time, I mean spending. That's the image we use, right? In English, our language is soaked with uh monetary images. Yeah. Like you spend time. And if you find a way to get more, you buy it, you buy time, right? But but just to that aside, like you spend time with especially those who are supposed to be your enemies. Like I I would say to deepen and mature spiritually from the Jesus movement's perspective, that that intentional choosing to spend time respect others and knowledge is a byproduct of that. Cause you know, I think that that's especially with the people who you're not supposed to be close with, yeah, like social from the empire-shaped world's perspective. Yeah. For example, like you are not supposed to develop close bonds with a queer person. Or I am not supposed to develop a deep sense of kinship, even brotherhood with a Muslim. Like that's not, I'm not supposed to. And so from the Jesus-shaped perspective, it's like that's where you mature, that's how you deepen spiritually. That's how you become more full of a person. Um, and I think that that's I don't know, that that kind of vision excites me because it's like it's a challenge, it's not something you want to do, but it's also something that you kind of do because you're like the world would be better. Such a more so much more harmony. I think this is a long about way of saying, I'm not sure. I think it's a form of of violence when we're talking about loving your enemies, and the first person that you know, imagine a congregation full of people and being like, that even means you're abuser.

Joash 46:30

Yeah.

Brad 46:30

I think that's a form of violence to people to be like, to go right to that, yeah, to the deepest, most painful personal spot, yeah, and say, No, you're supposed to love your enemy. And you're like, how about you start with your Muslim neighbor? Yeah, before you're telling some other person, usually some like woman, to love her abuser.

Joash 46:49

Yeah.

Brad 46:49

Let's start with the Muslim neighbor and getting to know them.

Joash 46:53

Yeah.

Brad 46:53

And maybe one day you're like, what does this mean for does that sound like Yeah, totally. What does that sound like?

Joash 46:59

I mean, I would even go a step further and say, start with yourself, like be integrated, like make peace with who you are, um, the light of your ancestors, and and the bad parts of them, the generational trauma that's been passed down, you know, uh the sins of our fathers, the trauma of our mothers, like spiritual and physical, right? Like um, start there. You know, I one of the things I want to explore in my PhD studies, and one of the reason one of the reasons why I talk so much about Celtic Christianity, and I've never actually said this in public before, so hot scoop here. Um, reason why I talk so much about Celtic Christianity is because I'm offering that to my white siblings with Celtic ancestors. And I love seeing the the light bulbs go off in their head when they're like, I was taught by empire to hate my ancestors, to think that they're all pagans, that there's no good in them. Uh so I'm like, great, start with your Celtic Christian ancestors, maybe. See the beauty in that tradition, see the one with creation ways of communing with God, uh, the indigenous knowledge and wisdom that is erased by empire there, uh, the same empire that you now embody. Um, like, and and if you make peace, I think if white folks with Celtic ancestors can find it in themselves to reconcile, to make peace with the spirituality and the wisdom of their ancestors, maybe, just maybe they'll they'll respect the rest of us and our ancestors and what we have inherited from them too.

Brad 48:34

That sounds like the like I am no expert on this. I am barely a student, but when it comes to like act of decolonization, yeah, I know that I've learned from, especially from the leaders of the Nates community, that decolonization begins with kind of asking, where was your grandmother born? Like that's the first, the first step is not to focus on someone else's ancestors, but to actually look back. And that's why I haven't I don't usually frame it like this, but I I do think that my attempt to look at church history through the lens of the of the wounds of the past that get turned into coping mechanisms and that harm people is a form of decolonization. Yes.

Joash 49:19

Absolutely, family tree, family history. You're helping us understand where grandma was born, spiritual grandma in the church.

Brad 49:26

Uh and what she went through when she immigrated. This is a meta uh analogy, but right?

Joash 49:31

Yes.

Brad 49:32

And then it doesn't, this is always the pitfall, and I that's okay. I always have to say this, but like, you know, let's say grandma became immigrated, had to guard her vulnerability, had to put forward an image of success. Uh, I know my grandparents who came immigrated from Germany were like that. It was so important to them to project this image of suburban success that they were like successful white Canadians. And they had the white card, which got them in the door of anything, right? But uh, so it was a lot easier for them. But you at you, you know, that kind of way of living can twist the children, and it can, you know, everything becomes about status and about image, and and that's dissatisfying. So a person becomes bitter and miserable and disconnected from life when they're in their older years, and then they're mean and callous and nasty. And none of understanding grandma absolves her of even this the heart the one one harsh word spoken to someone else. But again, I think it grows your capacity.

Joash 50:41

Yeah.

Brad 50:42

Um where you can both firmly be like no to that kind of like cruelty and also be like I see like why that where this came from. It makes you want to be like that that there's nothing to me more radical and healing than when a person says, I'm not gonna do to my kids what you did when it was something destructive, you know?

Joash 51:09

Yeah.

Brad 51:10

Or when it's something good, you hear when your parents had it something really good, you say, I'm gonna do that with my kids. It's probably no greater honor than hearing that.

Joash 51:20

That's so good. Yeah, that's healing work that you're doing. And yeah, you you come to mind a good bit. Um, and I recommend you to a lot of folks anytime people are like, How did we get here? You know, and uh, oh yeah, you know, people just stop at colonialism. I'm like, I've got a buddy who did his PhD in colonial studies and and came out with his PhD, and he was just like, Yeah, we gotta go way back into the family tree here. That's how we heal. One of the things I want to do in my PhD studies then is tie in Celtic Christianity, but British missionary perceptions to Celtic Christians, to their Celtic Christian ancestors, when at the same time they came across my ancient indigenous precolonial ancestors who were Christian. Because I I have a theory. I have a, and this probably won't be the main thesis, um, but I have a theory that it's because of that self-hatred to their own Christian ancestors and because of colonial attitudes toward their own ancient Christian ancestors, they had, you know, these these projected biases onto mine. Like you're not real Christians. You're not, you can't do this on your own. Like you have to be part of empire, you know, that kind of thinking and mindset. Um, you have to be Christian supremacist, you know, which came from empire that their own ancestors didn't have. So I think a way of going back and healing the work you're inviting us into is um is so critical to then not project projecting that onto the world and harming others like we have so far. You know, like I'm at the point where I'm just like, let's stop. I agree. This is a Donald Trump metaphor. Uh he's like, let's stop. Uh except Donald Trump said, let's let's stop bringing people in until we figure out what the hell is going on. I disagree with him, but I'll use the same metaphor to say, let's stop sending out missionaries until we figure out what the hell has gone wrong here.

Brad 53:12

You probably did not think you were about to co-opt a Donald Trump quote. This is what it feels like being on the other side. Yeah. Um oh that's okay. I I have I I know the Celtic thing. We I did I did um uh an episode with another podcast a couple years ago on Celtic Christianity. We did a two-parter. Now I've changed a lot since then. I've I've grown a lot since then. And would we you and I should talk Celtic because that could be really interesting. Yeah. Um, so maybe I'll save some of my thoughts on that for another time because it's like when you're talking about this self-loathing that exists within European Christianity, you're you're completely right. And they even it goes so far as to they construct a new way of talking about their about history and development where it's like primitivization. So what they do is they say, we used to be pagan, and they have this hierarchy, right? This is like one of the core um DNA strands in in the Western progress. Yes, Western progress civilization, ideology civilization. It's like we used to be, and then what they do is they use non-European peoples of the world to stand as they're like, that's what we used to be like. And so then there's this new justification for going in in order to help them move forward.

Joash 54:44

Wow.

Brad 54:44

It's all projection.

Joash 54:46

Wow.

Brad 54:46

So you're seeing the connection there. Oh, yeah.

Joash 54:48

Okay.

Brad 54:49

And so, but I think maybe we should save that for another time. Here's how I will I'll end with uh one thought and then I'm just curious what you have to say about it. But you know, your book, the title of your book just keeps coming back to me in this The Justice of Jesus, because that's not that's not a common phrase, interestingly. Maybe it should be, but it's not. We tend to, I think in popular Christianity, sort of sorry, not popular, unreflective on thinking. Yeah, we associate Jesus with mercy and we contrast that with justice, right? You know, you know all that.

Joas 55:25

Yeah, yeah.

Brad 55:26

But I think like loving your enemy does not mean in any way that your enemy does is like, especially let's say the the really serious, like I'm talking not the cultural enemy, I mean like the abuser. Yeah, loving your enemy does not mean that they don't suffer consequences.

Joash 55:49

Yeah.

Brad 55:49

I actually think I've said this one time before um on another podcast. I think maybe it was with you actually.

Joash 55:57

Yeah.

Brad 55:57

Uh yeah, it was. Where did Jesus learn how to love your enemy? And I'm like, well, you learn most things from your mother.

Joash 56:06

Yeah.

Brad 56:06

And it's like, what did loving your enemy look like to her? It didn't mean be gentle with them and don't disrupt the status quo. It meant they lose everything. That's what it means. Like it's it's it doesn't, they're not spared justice. Just the fact that because loving your enemy like loving a billionaire means really, if we had the power to do it, it means taking the money that they took from others and redistributing it. Like, and them falling from wealth is their salvation.

Joash 56:42

Like that's their it's pastoral advice that Jesus was giving the rich young rulers. It it was. I care for you deeply. Sell everything you have, give to the poor, and that then come follow me. Don't do it in your will. Do this before you follow me.

Brad 56:56

That's like it's good for you. It's your salvation. It's and you know, not this is where those words are important. Not salvation, not not salvation in the way the not in some of some afterlife thing, salvation of your soul, yeah, of who you are. Yeah, like freedom, liberation. Yeah, where you don't need the world. Yeah, real salvation. Yeah. So I'm feeling my heart feels bigger, and that's always my goal of a conversation. You know, I hope you do too.

Joash 57:26

Yeah, I absolutely do as well. And um, you know, I think one of the reasons why we misunderstand the justice of Jesus is um is we don't know Jesus. We claim to know him, we claim to follow him, but really what we're following is a Pied Piper who will save us from hell. And that's all we care about. We just want him to die and come to life again. We don't to make the magic formula work. Yeah, that's it. We don't give a about his life, his death, yeah, you know, leading up to his death and resurrection. We care deeply about we just want him to die, be a sacrificial lamb, and get on with it already. Come on, Jesus. Um, and that's it. But he had his whole life, he had the incarnation, uh, he had his teachings. We we don't give a crap about that because um so we don't know Jesus. We have to learn who Jesus is. Um, and then learning who Jesus is will help us unlearn the empire-shaped ways of this world, the ideas of retribution and um um not holding your enemy accountable. Jesus held religious oppressors, religious leaders who oppressed the poor accountable all the time. He was the meanest towards them, the harshest, rather. Called them out in public. Call them out in public in front of everyone, in front of all their friends. Yes. But that was good for them. He did that for their good. And uh, and again, you know, like use discernment with things like this. But but but the the takeaway here is Jesus isn't harsh. Jesus says, yes, love your enemy, but he doesn't say that harshly to people who are poor and oppressed. He understands and he says, My good news is good news to those who are poor and oppressed. But he goes to those with power and he tells them to whom much is given, much is required. He's fulfilling that law and he's saying, You, much is required from you. Sell everything you have, give to the poor, then come follow me. Then you can call yourself a true believer of the God.

Brad 59:15

Wow. That is is just such a different story than what we received about what it means to be to be Christian or to to follow Jesus. It's it's a different thing, but it sounds more it sounds more concrete and real, like it actually produces people who would be safe and strong and like full of love, people you could like turn to in a crisis, anyone, not just people like you. And then you're just I'm back to the square I'm always at, which is that immense chasm and dissonance.

Joash 3 59:48

That's it. So, how do we love thy trillionaire? How do we love the trillionaire among us? The one dude is a trillionaire among us. We invite him to follow Jesus by selling everything he has, giving to the poor, restoring what he's stolen from the poor, really, because again, that's what it means to be rich in any context. It means you have benefited off of stolen wealth of the poor and oppressed. Do that. Um, and that's how we love them by inviting them the way Jesus invites the rich young rulers in his day.

Brad 1:00:15

And if the main character is from the show Mr. Robot, did you ever watch that? Mr. Robot, no. Okay, the main character. Grew up in India, missed a lot. So it was from it's from like 2015. Okay, sorry. It's Rami, it was Rami Malik's big first movie. Okay. But if you're like the main the two main characters in that and they find a way to you know hack into the wealth of the billionaires and redistribute it to the world, and uh that's their goal of the whole thing. And it's like, and if they happen to do that, I'll uh pretend I didn't see anything, you know.

Joash 1:00:49

So yeah.

Brad 1:00:50

All right, thanks for for talking with me. It's always good. And we always find what the next one's gonna be about. That's it. Yeah, it's like as we're digging, oh, here's something. Uh we can't look at that today. But I'm excited because the Celtic Christianity conversations I had um for a long time had the most viewers. People are hungry for that. And I think it's because for Euro-Canadians and Euro-Americans, yeah, it represents this well, I guess what you could call like an indigenous tradition that uh of their ancestors that has a lot about it that's really appealing. Some stuff's romanticized, but let's talk about that next time. Yeah. But what's what? Anything you want to point people to?

Joash 1:01:33

Yeah. Um I mean, I would say if you haven't read my book, The Justice of Jesus, um, that's a good place to start. Um and then also if you're yearning for community spaces where you can unpack this stuff more. I'm teaching at St. Stephen's University. Uh, we have you know programs on peace and justice, on uh reconciliation studies with indigenous neighbors, taught by folks like Sarah Augustine. Um, you know, uh we have um a religion, peace and uh peace and justice program, um, uh a Master of Arts and Transformative Leadership that I'll be helping provide leadership to. Um so we have like a range of stuff. Um, you know, I'm teaching courses on decolonized leadership this fall, uh, canonic and decolonized leadership and interfaith peacemaking. That's another course. So just look us up, ssu.ca uh, and come study with us. Um, that would be my other invitation. Yeah. And then they can also sign up for your Substack. That's right. Yeah. My Substack is Masala Chai Theology, um, writing a lot about Celtic Christianity there these days and Augustine. And so we have a lot to talk about next time for sure. Uh and um and yeah, my Instagram is @joashpthomas Um, let's connect and hang out.

Brad 1:02:39

Um, and if you're interested in what I was talking about, the trauma approach to the church's history, I do have a free course that's always up. It's called Ancestral Trauma in the Church. And you can just sign up and get access to that for free. Just go to my website, bradleymelle.com, and you'll see it there as one of the links, Ancestral Trauma in the Church. Nothing's free these days, guys. Do it. That's right. All right. Until next time.