Coaching Skills For Leaders

Conquering Imposter Syndrome: Strategies for Personal Growth and Authentic Leadership

August 07, 2023 Neil Thubron and Jana Hendrickson Season 2 Episode 1
Coaching Skills For Leaders
Conquering Imposter Syndrome: Strategies for Personal Growth and Authentic Leadership
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Ever felt like you're just fooling everyone and soon enough, they're going to figure out you're not as capable as they think? Welcome to the club - it's called Imposter Syndrome, and it's more common than you might think. I'm Neil and my co-host Jana and I are sharing our personal experiences and strategies to overcome these feelings of inadequacy. We tackle Imposter Syndrome head-on, examining how comparisons to others can trigger it, yet also signal areas of potential growth and skill development. 

Moving forward, we invite you to join us as we dive deeper into how acknowledging these feelings, naming them, and grounding ourselves can be our first steps to healing. We introduce a unique approach called The Work by Byron Katie, designed to help you challenge your doubts and fears. We highlight the importance of authentic leadership in dealing with Imposter Syndrome and emphasize self-awareness and acceptance of discomfort as catalysts for personal growth. So, buckle up and get ready to turn your Imposter Syndrome from a source of anxiety into an opportunity for personal development. Don't just survive; thrive.

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Coaching Skills for Leaders podcast with Jana Henderson and Neil Thubberon. The purpose of the podcast is to help leaders anywhere develop their coaching skills to transform the lives of those they lead, as well as their own. Welcome to another episode of Coaching Skills for Leaders. Thank you for tuning in to listen with Neil and Jana. Jana, how are you today?

Speaker 2:

Hi, I'm doing really great. How are you?

Speaker 1:

Fantastic. Thank you, yeah, really really good, really excited to be recording this topic today, which is one that I don't know. It seems to keep coming up in various versions with people that I'm working with, either coaching, or leaders that I'm teaching or engaging with, and the topic is imposter syndrome.

Speaker 2:

Oh drumroll, don't we know it all? No, no, I mean you and I wouldn't know some imposter syndrome. But you know, for other people we know it right.

Speaker 1:

Well, actually to be honest, I could say I think I've suffered from imposter syndrome on more than one occasion.

Speaker 2:

I'm sure we all have.

Speaker 1:

And I think that's a good place to start actually is. You know, imposter syndrome is something that you hear the term a lot. You hear people throw it around. You know I must be suffering from imposter syndrome, or I feel like I'm suffering from imposter syndrome, and typically that's because they're questioning themselves. They're thinking that they are undeserving of where they're at or in the position they're in or their accomplishments they have. They're sitting looking around at everything they've achieved and they feel like, well, do I really deserve this? And I think that comes out.

Speaker 2:

It's kind of like a who am I Like, isn't it? Yeah, who am I to? Who am I to do this? To have this, to be talking or to be seeing the expert? I feel like that's coming up.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I think from what I've seen, not just in people I work with but also in good friends of mine as well, they're really successful is it's so common for people, even some of the most successful people in the world, to have that anxiety and doubt that, should I be here, is this, am I going to be found out at some point? And am I going to be found out as an imposter, which is, I guess, just a natural human doubt and behavior when we question ourselves. But it seems to have it's got this label on it, and so I guess in this episode let's try and unpack and uncover how leaders could help themselves or others when it comes to experiencing that anxiety of imposter syndrome.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Let's dive all the way in. I think we're going to look at it from two different sides, really Like how do you help yourself, but also, really, what can you do when you spotted in others in your team, right? So I think you're really, really important, but since we all can relate to it, let's talk about the experience first. So I think one of the things that might be really key in helping to work with imposter syndrome is what triggers it.

Speaker 1:

And.

Speaker 2:

I would hazard a guess that comparison might be at the top of the list. What do you think?

Speaker 1:

I guess that's a comparison is interesting, because comparison with what? Is it comparison with your peer group, and you look at someone who's in a similar role to you and you think I'm not as good as them or I'm not as clever as them or I'm not as experienced as them. I guess that could be part of it. It could also be comparing yourself to family expectations or things you've grown up with as well. So what's your experience of?

Speaker 2:

I mean, I would say that in the majority of cases, there's some version of comparison going on that would determine that we are not as good as right. Something else, somebody else, somewhere else. And it's often also, I feel, like an indication of what you know. If you spotted, you got it. So like, let's just assume you're witnessing somebody else in your field and they're just being really brilliant at it. You know, they just are very articulate or they've just nailed something, They've done a really great job at a presentation, whatever else, and then you're sitting there thinking, oh man, this person is really really great and oh, maybe I'm not as great as right.

Speaker 2:

So there's, I think there's an element of that. But at the same time, it's kind of hinting us at our own potential, our own desires, like what we want more of the way we want to develop mastery, and so I feel like, you know, whenever I have that show up and I can hold it and be like, oh, oh, here it is the little imposter syndrome, monsters lurking in the corner I really try to look at it as what is it about the situation or this other person that I actually envy, you know? So there's often then something there that I would like for myself, that I would like to be better at, so I find it very useful actually to work with. Obviously, it doesn't feel great in the moment if you're really going down the self-doubt spiral, but it can also be a really great tool to uncover what more there is for you.

Speaker 1:

Or it's interesting. Actually, one of the things I've noticed is that self-doubt or that envy. One of the things you can't notice is how people see you, and so the opposite could be true at the other end of the telescope Very much so, and so other people could be looking at you exactly the same way. But you just can't see in yourself, and I personally I've experienced that a number of times in my career where I didn't think I was doing the way I was seen to be doing. The role was very different to the way I felt I was doing it, and the way I was seen to be doing it was much higher and much more positive than the way I saw it. So that was the other thing.

Speaker 2:

It's about the dissonance isn't it really About the dissonance between how you perceive yourself versus how the outside might perceive you? Isn't?

Speaker 1:

it, yeah, and then being comfortable with that as well and being okay with that.

Speaker 2:

I would say, the other thing that shows up a lot for me whether it's for me or for myself or clients is that around this imposter syndrome. Is that really it's an indication of mastery? There's an area usually that we are looking to be an expert in or master in some fashion, and so that's why I think imposter syndrome shows up, even for the best, whether it's actors or political figures I'm trying to think really anybody singers you hear it all the time that people still feel like an imposter syndrome, even if they have huge amounts of successes. Recently, I was watching a whole Netflix documentary about Lewis Capaldi, for example, who's just a perfect example of that, and so it doesn't matter how much success you have. It just is about how you are perceiving yourself in the world with the art that you put out.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yes, and I think it typically is triggered. What I've seen, where I see it triggered, is when someone gets promoted into a position and they're in a new position. That's when it first starts appearing. Is that doubt? Or they want to go for a new role but they're not sure whether they should? But where I've seen it most is where someone is in a new role and then they start doubting whether they are capable of doing that.

Speaker 2:

Well, I wonder, then, if it's maybe something to do with the comfort zone, our very good friend, the comfort zone, because, really, imposter syndrome probably lives outside of that circle of the comfort zone, doesn't it? It's like whenever we try to do something a little bit new, a little bit different, we're like, oh, maybe I don't belong here. There's a part of us that's pulling back into safety, so to speak. So it could be that too.

Speaker 1:

I think, and that kind of links quite nicely to one of the things I think that links to is six human needs, which is uncertainty. We have this need for uncertainty, but not too much.

Speaker 2:

Just not too much, please.

Speaker 1:

So how do we pull some of that uncertainty back into more certainty and I think that's probably the next step of this conversation is so if a leader's feeling that, or if they see it, that anxiety, that potential of imposter syndrome in others, what can they do? And one of the things I know that works when I work with people on this is just anchoring in things that they know in their comfort zone, in their certainty. What are they great at? What got them to where they are already?

Speaker 1:

So you're using essentially reframing to focus them on what they are good at, as opposed to the things that they're maybe not seeing themselves as being good at yet yeah, because they can't see themselves as being good at and just things like simple things, that like writing down all the great things, achievements you've had, because quite often we achieve stuff and we move on and we don't focus enough on what we've achieved, the great things that we've achieved that have got us to where we are today, and that just reminds us that actually we are worthy of what we've achieved, of where we are because of what we've achieved.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I totally get that. I think it might work in many circumstances. I do think, though, that I've certainly, honestly, been in that boat myself where I could still make that list, and it's not enough. I need to have this and this and this, and it's just not enough. So it just feeds for me the story of that's all nice and good, but this person has got a PhD in something, or they have like six books out on the market about this topic. You know what I mean. Like there's always, then, more to be accomplished.

Speaker 2:

So you know, I think, when I speak with leaders that are suffering for a moment from about of an imposter syndrome, I'd be really curious to just have them choose the relationship that they want to be in with that part of themselves right, where they're really just taking a pause to look at well, what is that actually? What's this actually underneath that for them, what is this about? You know, obviously, 99% of people have some version or another of not feeling good enough, so I don't mean that as as broad as that, but you know what is it actually pointing to for them? You know, what is it? What's the what's the golden nuggets in this showing up for them at that point. That's really where I would look. And then the other part is then to be like, okay, well, what do we want to do when this shows up? How do we want to be being in that place? Do we want it to go down a whole spiral of self doubt and depression for a couple of days, because you know that's that can happen. I think we've all had that happen. Or do we want to be in a relationship where then we choose a different stand and we act more empowered and we're like okay.

Speaker 2:

So this is, you know, I have this fear, this fear because, honestly, neil, I think for a lot of people it's like a key driver that keeps people pushing hard for success. So imposter syndrome can be like a crutch, even you know, of being like well, I'm going to do more, I got to do more. You know, in the, in the realm of coaches, haven't we all met the coaches that are like just starting out and they want one more certification and one more this and one more thing that allows them to feel like they're enough, you know, in order to charge or whatever. So I think it's kind of a, it's an interesting yeah, I would call it a crutch at some. You know, not for everybody in every situation, but sometimes so it might be worth looking at. What is it for that person really? What is it about?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think what you said there is really powerful is how could you take this feeling, this thought, this feeling, and what could be great about that? How could you like, how could that create energy, how could that create positive momentum? I guess the other thought that pops into my head is what would it take to not be an imposter? What is what is not being?

Speaker 2:

this is just the thing, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

Because if you then have the goalpost of like, okay, once I have this, is that this is a classic okay, people being being being classic coaching moment of I'll be happy when.

Speaker 2:

I'll be happy when or I won't have imposter syndrome, when I have, you know, in my case, a PhD in psychology, probably, or you know something that I've made up that I need to have in order to feel good enough, and and and.

Speaker 2:

Even if you have that list, yeah, you might feel driven towards that, but really, is it because you're trying to address you're not enough, or are you pursuing a PhD or something else, like writing a book, because you're interested in it and you're loving it?

Speaker 2:

That's kind of what I mean about looking at the relationship you want to build with that, because it can be just a whole bunch of negative self talk that comes from the wounding and the fear of not feeling good enough as opposed to being a positive driver. So it could, however, give you indication of where you do want to spend more time right as a leader, like if you're finding yourself feeling really like attracted to and a strong bout of imposter syndrome when you've been at a conference where you heard other people speak on your subject matter, then maybe that's an indication that you are actually attracted to speaking more, to developing your expertise or your speaking skills more, or to, you know, maybe spend more time doing things that you really want to be doing at the company, as opposed to the things that you are finding yourself doing.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I think that's interesting because that but could a look at how, how can you, how can you view this and positively take action on it or positively change something, or thinking in you to address it? I guess the other thought that comes into my head is when you have that anxiety that comes with imposter syndrome, what are some immediate actions you can take? So eye-adrials, they would call it in the military, eye-adrials for when you have that anxiety. And you know that remembering all the great, all the things you're great at, is definitely one of the things I know works for me, and but to me that's like, honestly, I would invite this because I'm, you know, I am I will raise my hands.

Speaker 2:

I am coming at it from an ontological perspective. But you cannot leave a place that you haven't fully been to and with, so it's so tempting to want to do something to make it go away. Right, that's a very common thing that people bring to coaching is like I really really want to, you know, stop thinking this and not do this and not behave like this. But actually in this case, I would invite anybody, leader or otherwise, to just be with that feeling for a moment and just recognize it and feel what it feels like in your body, allow it to pass, because it's too tempting to, you know, try to move on by doing to something else and actually that might just, you know, just suppress it.

Speaker 1:

And I get it and you're absolutely right. The challenge is is if it's paralyzing you, if you're in a meeting and you are not speaking up, you're not adding value, you're not being yourself, because imposter syndrome is holding you back. Yeah, you need a way of dealing with it.

Speaker 2:

You got it. Okay, I've got you. I understand I got you back. So here's the thing. So if somebody is, I think, in a situation like what you just described, where you really are paralyzed and it's not good time to be with your damn feelings yeah, get that Then what would we do? So I think the first I would suggest is probably to take a deep breath, you know, and to sit with acknowledging up here it is showing up. I have a choice. How do I react? How do I respond rather than react? So, if you're taking a deep breath, I think the main thing that it does is just, it creates a little bit of space for the nervous system to come and back off. Basically, right To calm down a little bit and to ground yourself. So, even if you're in a meeting, you put your palms, you know, down on your legs, you ground yourself and take a deep breath and then just on that thought yeah, well, you go on to the next point.

Speaker 1:

There was a great podcast that Andrew Hoobman did on how to breathing techniques to calm you down.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And one of them was take a breath through your nose, then take a second breath, so you take two breaths and then breathe out, and they've done a lot of scientific work on studies on this. That actually calms the nervous system down. Yeah, I love it, so that's, that's a really good point. Sorry.

Speaker 2:

Double in breath.

Speaker 1:

Double in breath, yeah, perfect. And then out through the mouth.

Speaker 2:

I love it. Yeah, I remember that. I remember listening to that episode. It was really great. So, yeah, anything that you know that works for you to calm the nervous system down, I think will be great. And then really, it's a you know, taking the stand and being a choice. So, you know, even even if that is the kind of part of you know, you know when they always talk about this like little devil on one shoulder and the angel on the other shoulder, it's kind of that situation, isn't it, when you've got to decide who you're going to listen to. So then you are a choice. I think just to know that you are a choice, how you're being with it, is very empowering. And then, to you know, feel the fear and do it anyway.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I think the way I've seen this turning up with actually with someone I'm working with at the moment is they find that when they are feeling imposter syndrome, they get very defensive and they don't behave like themselves and therefore they they don't do a good job basically in that situation when they're with someone. So that breathing is definitely key and I've almost taken a physical step back, so that grounding, as you described it. So, almost definitely, and if you can, I guess, try and detach as much as you can from the situation, even if that means stepping out while you're having those feelings and coming back. Just give yourself some space and time. What else would we tell leaders who are either feeling this or who have got people they know suffer from imposter syndrome?

Speaker 2:

I do feel like this. What comes to my mind is a little bit of the power of naming it, I think, especially because we know from research that the most powerful leaders are also the ones that are sharing their vulnerabilities. I don't know, it certainly depends a little bit on the circumstance. You might not want to do this on national TV, but if you're in a meeting with your leadership team, you might even just address it and say I'm getting a little bit nervous here because part of me feels like I'm out of my depth or something to explain, and just say let's just brainstorm how we could do it in a different way, just basically addressing your nervous feelings, just like you would in an interview. I'm really excited to be here, so I'm sorry, I'm a little bit nervous. It's kind of the same tactic where naming it can just take a lot of wind out of the sails.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I think that's I like that. I like naming it because it just brings out the table and that vulnerable, authentic leadership style is definitely becoming more acceptable in the workplace not in all places, but it's definitely becoming more acceptable. And in terms of coaching models and coaching styles, we mentioned the six human needs and there's clearly some links to that in there, and then the self coaching 101 that we talked about in one of our episodes, which is also really powerful for helping someone through this.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think, anything that basically helps you look at the meaning that you're giving right to the situation or to the thoughts that you're having. So one of the things I don't think we've mentioned a lot before and haven't done an episode on is Byron Katie's the work, and the work is really just four powerful questions of inquiry. I think we did a little bit of that together with Tim Ferriss model, but basically here in this, I think in this situation, what that would be about is really to just in the moment, whenever you're catching yourself with your imposter syndrome, to think is that true? Can I be absolutely sure that's true? To at least create a bit of a gap there. That it maybe not is true, whatever you're thinking in that moment.

Speaker 2:

And then to even just skip question three and go straight to, because we already know from your client you know he's not he or they are not showing up the way that they would and they're not doing the best work when they're in that state, and that's usually the case. So question four was who would you be without the thought? And you might even take it to the point of like saying what would I say without the thought? How would I show up without this thought, if I didn't have this thought now, then what wouldn't I be afraid to say? Right, and sometimes for me that shows up in ways of where I would ask myself what would I say to this client if I wasn't scared of them firing me? And I will just say the thing, and that ends up being one of the most powerful things you could say. You know. So that might be another way to deal with it.

Speaker 1:

So sure so for the leaders to use that coaching model, the works by Byron Katie, and then the other model that we talked about was the Brook Costillo model, which is would also be relevant here. You know what's the circumstances that are creating the thoughts, that are creating the feelings, and then almost pausing at that point, at those feelings point. And okay, what feelings do I need to have here to create the thoughts I want to create, and just simply free, like refocusing on the result that you're actually looking to create.

Speaker 2:

So you know, sometimes it may just be simply helpful to zoom out and away from the internal world and your feelings all around that imposter syndrome and focus back outward on the room, on the situation, on the meeting. What was it that you actually really wanted to create here, what's the desired result? And then work your way back from there, because then at least it's a little bit like Tony Robin says. You know when, when you're depressed, one of the best things you can do for yourself is to go out and help others, because it just takes your focus away right from the internal struggle. So I think that's helpful. And then, when you're spotting it I think this is a really interesting question, right, like what do you do when you're spotting it? What do you do when you're spotting it in one of your team? Like how?

Speaker 2:

to support someone else when they're in that loop where they're just not feeling good enough. I think so many of my people and certainly I can relate to having had employees or staff members that are constantly getting themselves down, that are constantly feeling not good enough, Like what do you do then? What do you think? What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 1:

So when you yeah, so when you've got someone who? So I guess one of the things that comes into my mind is refocusing on purpose, on what is it that you want, and focusing on the purpose and that individual. So focus on that individual. What is it they want? What is it they're trying to achieve in their career, in this job, in that? So, what are the things that they want? If I was a leader and I was spotting that in someone, I think there's a need for strokes as well. There's a need for constant affirmation from others that's definitely so that there's the external validation of people that they value and respect. I think that's quite important in helping with someone who is doubting themselves and not being themselves. So I think, refocusing on purpose, that validation, those are the first things that pop into my mind.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I love the validation piece especially.

Speaker 2:

I was going to come to that as well because I actually thought of it slightly differently than you, but I think both are very pertinent here. One is that if I saw a team member constantly being in the cycle of like oh you know where you can just tell, like they just don't have a belief in themselves, I do think it's important to acknowledge and validate that and be like hey, you know, I can see that there's a part of you that doesn't feel like you belong here or you're good enough for this or whatever. Like to just validate their experience. And, yes, you can, I think you know, bolster up, if you will, the ego by way of creating positive acknowledgement and praising them for what they are doing. Great. But really, I think, as a leader, the idea is that we develop the person right, like we want to be making them into great people, and so it might be an idea to talk with them, just set some time aside and really look at when are they feeling that Like? What is what? Are their triggers right?

Speaker 2:

Like what's creating that experience for them and are there maybe certain things that they would like to address with skills training or with the support of a coach that helps them overcome it long term, like find lasting solutions, you know, Say, for example, you know, I've experienced this, certainly where people have that kind of experience, when they're dyslexic, right Like so, then how do you build strategies for that person and with that person in order for them to just be, you know, be as productive and as effective and confident despite dyslexia, like? What kind of structures can you put in place with this person? Or you know, if they are feeling like they haven't got enough knowledge? You know, in sales, it's a lot about product knowledge, or experience in selling, or experience in having conversations with customers, so then what is it that they would need in order to feel up to speed? You know, that's the sort of thing I was thinking of.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, it's built and that. That that's bringing that uncertainty and certainty, in my view. What are you uncertain of that you can bring into that? Because the person might not initially.

Speaker 2:

Like honestly, neil, I think people might not even be fully aware. So self-awareness is, I feel, like for the leader or for the leader that's dealing with a team member. One of the most important things is to get to the bottom of what's actually creating that experience of the imposter syndrome.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So when does it occur? What's happening when it occurs? And that's in it and actually what's interesting. So where I see it popping up with people that I work with, it's normally when they're dealing with someone in senior authority. That's when they feel under the spotlight and they think I'm going to be found out, so that's. I guess there's something there about how do you in your own peer group, amongst your own, you know your own team, it's okay. But then when you're under the spotlight from someone who you might think is better than you, more senior than you, more more capable than you, then then I think that's where it probably appears, or that's where I see it appearing a lot.

Speaker 2:

Well for me that there's an interesting piece in there that's just kind of to my mind while you were speaking, which is that if it's that you're fearful of being found out about, like, say, you've done a piece of work and it may not be up to par, that sort of thing I wonder if that may then invite an investigation into your integrity, because there might be a part of you that feels like you're not quite in alignment between your actions and your words, whether you have, you know, delivered what you said you would, or that kind of thing. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I do, and what I mean actually isn't that they haven't lived up to their standards. What I mean, what I've seen it, is that they they question, even though they know they've done a great job, they know their stuff, they're good at what they're doing. They're worried about someone asking them something or challenging them on something that they don't have the answer to, or make them feel uncomfortable or whatever. And I think that's where the doubt comes in and the imposter syndrome comes in, even though it's not real, even though so you're kind of being afraid to not have all the answers and not know everything that they could be asked about.

Speaker 1:

Or not to for people to think they don't know all the answers, Hmm okay, yeah.

Speaker 1:

I've had it Personally. I've had it when I've been challenged by people who are senior. I know all the answers. I know when this deal's coming in. I know when, the value of it, I know the decision process. But when you're under the spotlight, under pressure you're causing, do I really have all the right relationships? Have I really got a good handle on this deal, do I? Yeah, I can start questioning it. So that's where I guess I'd personally had the imposter syndrome in the past myself when that's happened.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

So, but all the things we've talked about, like how to deal with it in the moment, the IA drills, how to then take a step back and think, okay, what's causing this, what's behind this, what feelings do I want to create and, therefore, what thoughts would I need All of those things we've talked about, I think would work in that case.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and also if you are in the position where Because what you're describing is an element of perfectionism, isn't it? It's like I had to have all the answers to everything all the time, so that's like a slightly different take on it, I would say, where, again, from an ontological perspective, you get to choose how you're being in relationship with that part of yourself when that shows up. Really, that's just a defense mechanism of not wanting to be looking stupid. So that's what's there to work with, right? But you don't want to look unprofessional, you don't want to look like you don't know what you're doing. You don't want to look incompetent, whatever form or whatever words you want to pick for it. But this is what we would call defense mechanisms. So we want to be able to be, through coaching or through being developed as a leader, to be able to step into the essence of our being again and to work and operate from that rather than from the defense mechanisms.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and actually you just said something that really resonates is you've just got to be okay with being uncomfortable. Actually it's the Tony Robbins quote of your success will be directly equivalent to the amount of discomfort you're prepared to accept. And actually that's true. So you might not know everything, you might not have all the answers, you might feel like an imposter, but actually what needs to happen for you to be okay with that or to embrace that yeah, to just be okay with being not perfect.

Speaker 1:

Not perfect. Yeah, it's okay to uncomfortable, and the great thing about being in the uncomfortable zone or outside your comfort zone is that's where we grow. We don't grow in our comfort zone, we grow outside our comfort zone.

Speaker 2:

Exactly, which, I feel like, brings us back full circle to our simple discovery that the imposter syndrome probably lies just a little bit outside the comfort zone, which means congratulations, you are growing. This is good for you and it's showing you in which direction you would like to grow, and so let's just all just love on the whole imposter syndrome a little bit more and embrace it a little bit more and look at it as a signpost.

Speaker 1:

And when you see it in others, it's okay to name it, it's okay to try and understand it and support and help them to either embrace it or overcome it.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely.

Speaker 1:

And structures in any circumstance. So should we wrap there?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely. I think that was a really, really insightful conversation. I feel like and I certainly hope that you listener was that you were feeling helped by it and heard and maybe had a little chuckle here and there at yourself like we did. We certainly love you for being here. Thank you so much for listening in and we'll see you next time.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, thank you for listening. Thank you for listening to Coaching Skills for Leaders podcast with Yana and Neil. If you found the conversation useful, please share with your colleagues and friends. Please also leave us a rating and a review, and if you would like to connect with us directly to discuss your own or your business needs, you will find our contact details in the show notes below.

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