Coaching Skills For Leaders
Coaching Skills For Leaders
Trust in Leadership: Mastering Presence, Vulnerability, and Empathy for Team Dynamics
Unlock the transformative power of trust in leadership with Jana Hendrickson and Neil Thubron as they guide you through the nuanced art of fostering a secure and respected team dynamic. In a riveting exploration grounded in the competencies of the International Coaching Federation, our conversation promises actionable insights into how leaders can cultivate an environment ripe for innovation and authentic interaction. Learn the delicate balance of presence and vulnerability as we share personal experiences and the pivotal role of empathy in leadership success.
This episode is a masterclass in humanistic leadership, where connecting with your team on a deeper level is not just preferable but essential. We unravel the complexities of building trust over time, the profound impact of acknowledging individual strengths, and the strategy of separating performance from personal development in one-on-one meetings. Neil and Jana, with their wealth of experience, challenge the traditional hierarchy, inviting you to partner with your employees in a journey of collective growth and empowerment. Join us and redefine the essence of leadership for yourself and your organization.
Welcome to the Coaching Skills for Leaders podcast with Jana Henderson and Neil Thubron. The purpose of the podcast is to help leaders anywhere develop their coaching skills to transform the lives of those they lead, as well as their own well as their own.
Speaker 2:Hello everybody, welcome back to Coaching Skills for Leaders, our podcast for you, and we have got something very interesting for you. Today we're talking about creating trust and safety, which, of course, is one of those skills that every coach needs to demonstrate and really create an atmosphere of with their coaches, and that we felt was highly, highly relevant to leaders in the business context as well, because, of course, we want to encourage an environment where people do feel safe, people do feel like they're being trusted and that the leaders are trustworthy themselves as well.
Speaker 1:So we thought we'd talk you, me, andil um through um really, what that means and what that could look like in practice yeah, and and the reason this is a topic that yana and I thought was really relevant is because we're both developing our coaching skills at the moment and we've, you know, we've been going through some of the international coaching federation uh training, through some of the International Coaching Federation training and one of the competencies they have, competencies in which are relevant actually relevant to leaders as well as to coaches.
Speaker 1:But this is one of their competencies which is about cultivating trust and safety when you're working with your coachee, but as a leader, when you're working with whoever you're supporting in in that, in that type of role and clearly you know the words say it for itself creating trust and safety is so important in any conversation you're going to have if you're really going to allow the other person to have to create that supportive environment that allows the other person to be open and have that natural conversation with you so they feel that they can share freely yeah, I also just think it brings out the best in people, doesn't it like?
Speaker 2:if you feel safe and connected and like you, you know, I think it just allows people to openly express thoughts and feelings, create new, you know, verbal ideas, um, bring up, bring out their talents, really. And I think we wouldn't do that in an environment where we felt like we would expose ourselves criticism really quickly or um, you know, there's just a a judgment kind atmosphere and hence I think it's just so applicable that, you know, we, you know, get in order for us to get the best out of our people.
Speaker 1:Right. People have a can easily put up a shield or put a mask on and not be themselves in front of a leader, especially if you're more senior than they are or if someone's a peer of yours and they're worried about how they might look to you, you know. So it's it's important to just create that environment where someone can just be themselves. And some people are great at it and and you know, you probably all know, you know all the people listening to this will know people you sit down with the first time and you feel like, do you know, I could just share my life story with this person. I just feel in a safe environment. I can just talk to them about anything. What do you think people like that? How do you think people like that do that, kiana? How do they?
Speaker 2:create that? Yeah, that's a good question. It it reminds me of this, um, this, uh quote. That's being cited a lot and I will completely picture it, but it's essentially about you know where you either deal with a person that makes you feel like you leave conversation, which makes you feel like they are really important, and then you meet with leaders that leave. You have you leaving the conversation feeling important, right? And so to me, it has often to do with not just what the leader says or the person says, but just what stance are they taking. You know, can you tell that they're genuinely connecting with me, that they're fully present, that they are curious, curiosity, just open-minded, that they are judgment-free, that they are really there to listen?
Speaker 2:And so many leaders I've met in business and others love to talk about themselves and their thoughts, and really I think the conversations that people leave inspired by are the ones where they feel listened to as well. So we've obviously covered a lot of these skills in previous podcast episodes, but I think, when we apply this to creating trust and safety, you know, how does a leader really emit that sentiment that what you say to them is, you know, is safe to express and is something that you know isn't going to leave the room, for example, right. Like I said, I think it depends a little bit on how they set the context, how the conversation is being handled. You know what's maybe said at the beginning of the conversation and at the end how it's framed, and you know kind of how the container is held. So there's, I feel like, a lot of things that more eloquent and intentional communicators do that can really create that.
Speaker 2:And you know, one of the things that I think you know it's kind of to our first point really where you know we want to acknowledge and respect the unique talents of somebody. How often is it that someone just outright, you know we want to acknowledge and respect the unique talents of somebody? How often is it that someone just outright, you know, compliments you on something that you do really well? I don't know in the, in the working context, I'm sorry to say, but that hasn't happened a lot to me that somebody was, you know, first leading with. Wow, I really noticed that on this last thing, job assignment, whatever you know you really connected extremely well with the client or something right Like. So there's something there to be said about feeling seen and valued by way of having the leader you know acknowledge or truly genuinely respect a team member's qualities and talents and pointing those out.
Speaker 1:I don't think that happens a lot no, and I think in the context of a coaching conversation, that's a really important piece of creating that safety and that trust. Because when, when a coach, she is sitting in front of you, or when the person you are coaching as a leader is sitting in front of you, or on the phone or on Teams or whatever it is, and they are explaining to you or telling you something, or they're talking through insights they're having from the conversation, they may not realize how important something they just said is. And this is where that we've talked about listening and active listening and listening deeply. But this is where deeply listening becomes really important is when you hear something that is clearly potentially an insight, a breakthrough, something they didn't realize, and you acknowledge them and congratulate them for that and just get them to pause for a moment and just absorb that, just marinate in that what you just said there.
Speaker 2:Um, that's a really important way, I think, of creating that safety and trust in that environment yeah, and I think that also relates to you know, if you know your team members goals and they may come to you with a struggle, but you have a way of pointing out that they're already in the middle of doing the thing they set out to do, right, like you find something in that where you can show them a little bit. Like you said, you know to pause and emphasize that you know you are taking those actions. You are in the middle of this and you know how this person's unique talents play into that is really working for them. You know just being complimentary in that moment and really helping the person's awareness move away from what's strugglesome about the item versus what's actually working and what's already being done about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that shows that you're really focusing on them. You're focusing on them and you're really listening, focusing on them, you're focusing on them and you're really listening. And I want to come back to something else you said, because I think this is a really important element of creating trust and safety as well, and a very important skill for leaders to apply, which is no judgment, is listen without opinion, listen without judging what's being said, just clarify what's being said. Just clarify what's being said. And alongside that, I think the two kind of go together is don't make assumptions about what you're hearing as well, so don't judge and don't assume. You know listening, the clarifying, making. The important thing is that the person you're working with is understanding what they're saying and what's important to them, not that it's important to you as a leader that you're judging that or understanding that.
Speaker 2:And, you know, isn't it so clear that the person like the you know whoever's leading the conversation doesn't even have to outwardly be judging? This could be micro expressions, so you cannot hide it, right Like it's very, very easy to pick up when you can find some implied judgment, or the question that follows up implies some sort of judgment. And so I think, yeah, the qualities of open-mindedness, a growth mindset and curiosity are definitely ones that leaders would be able to bring to the table and really demonstrate when they're seeking to build trust and safety.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's hard, right, as a leader, it's hard because you want to help, you want to jump in and help and you want to give support and you want to, and you've got your own experiences as well as a, you know, as a leader in that and so. But then if you jump in with your opinion, with your judgment, then you're not creating that safety and trust. You're breaking it.
Speaker 2:You're making that person feel like what they just said has been assessed or judged has been assessed yeah, I was just thinking, as you were speaking then, about a client situation where, um, really it became very apparent that there are different leadership styles. Um, one leader might be more, uh, inclined to try to preserve harmony and not rock the boat and not share their feelings when something went badly, and another style of leadership might be just very expressive, maybe even explosive, where you know you would know exactly where you stand if you screwed up, right like, and so I was curious about which one would, I feel like would create more trust and safety. Right, is there maybe a happy medium between the two? But really I think I would rather know where I stand with somebody than always having it be even keel, where you can't quite read their mind and you don't know what they're actually thinking yeah, this is the sorry go no, I was just saying like.
Speaker 2:So it probably matters about what the leader shares, how it's being the communication style of them as well.
Speaker 1:And this is the tough thing for any leader is when you switch from leading to coaching, when do you step away from that leading and you have to step into the right. I'm actually now just going to be present and use coaching skills now and I'm going to hold back on that judging and telling. I think it's also and a tough, tough skill to learn as a coach and I wouldn't say I'm 100% brilliant at this yet and especially to create that environment of safety and trust is to not interpret how someone is feeling or thinking as a result of what they said. So just to clarify as an example, let's say an employee let's use an employee as an example sits down and said I've just had this really tough conversation with a client. They were really angry with what we've done. They weren't happy with the service we provided or the pricing or the solution we provided.
Speaker 1:Um, I just want to get some insight from you or some input from you on um. And then the leader says yeah, that must have felt awful for you. That must have been awful to be in that situation. Um, now that that that's human to do that. But actually a better coaching style would be to say and how did that make you feel? Or what, what, what, what were your feelings in that situation or that kind of thing I've done. What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:yeah, this, this makes me think and feel and be quite german, but there's a phrase in german that goes that is, uh, saying you, you put something in someone's mouth.
Speaker 2:So if I say, oh, that must have made you feel really X, y, z, I'm putting that into their mouth and their mindset, right, as opposed to you know, actually, you know understanding what it was that they were feeling, and I think nobody likes to be told how they're feeling, because almost always we feel misunderstood, not heard, not seen, and so I think you know what you're speaking to in parts is really what you know. The ICF, the International Coach Federation, refers to, as you know, showing support and empathy and concerns and also encouraging the expression of feelings and concerns, right Like those two are very important in cultivating trust and safety. However, we have to distinguish here that we don't do that by presupposing what the other person feels right. So it's a desired attempt, I think at that, but the real way that we do that, that we show our support or concern or empathy, is really by leading with curiosity, is it not?
Speaker 1:yeah, and then so we're talking about creating safety and trust, and it went by making assumptions or by putting words in someone's mouth, assuming feelings, we're breaking that safety, safety and trust. And I had to smile then for a sec, because one of the things I've been working on as I've been going through the latest round of training I've been doing is, you know, I'm a glass half full type person, um, and so I will have a conversation what would motivate you in this situation, or what you, what would, what, what's, uh, what would be really positive here? And, and actually you know what, that's me putting words in someone's mouth because they haven't said they want to be motivated, they want to be positive. I've just assumed that. Why wouldn't you want to be, um, and so a similar kind of similar. That breaks safety and trust as well, because I'm it's my agenda, my view of the world that I'm then putting on someone by asking that question in that way.
Speaker 2:I think people do that so automatically, so unconsciously, so much all of the time.
Speaker 2:You know, to you, we all are, of course, naturally inclined to view the world through our lens and assume it's basically the same for everyone else.
Speaker 2:And this is how that happens, and it's not malintent, I don't think.
Speaker 2:I really just think it kind of slips out and it's just how we think and talk to ourselves and others, right? But when you want to really really deeply connect with somebody else and allow them because, remember, in coaching mindset, we believe that they already have everything they need within themselves, so they technically don't need us, right? We're just helping them bring out what is already inside. And so if even that was something that we assumed for our team members, you know which I think is a big ask, because I have worked with plenty of leaders who basically think that some of their team are incompetent or not fast enough or not accurate enough or not this enough, and so, you know, I think, if we just assumed that that they were already, you know, having all that they need within them and that they're whole, complete and creative and resourced, then we would automatically speak maybe a little differently, right? But how do you think that then a leader can create an environment where people feel like they can safely express their feelings. What do you think that takes?
Speaker 1:And, to be honest, I think we've covered some of the key things there. It's no judgment, so someone's got to feel safe that what they say isn't judged. What they say is the person in front of them is curious and wants to support them. The listening we've talked about that. You know how do you create safety and trust? You've got to listen, you've got to be present. That deep listening we've talked about in other podcasts, um, but it's not a one-time thing, so I'm gonna.
Speaker 1:I think the the you can't suddenly switch to this environment where suddenly, oh, I feel like I can trust, I feel safe and trusted with my boss or with my. That's probably created over time. It's created over time by the way you interact and behave, um, with that person and the the emails you send, the messages you send. That can so and and if you're, if you think that in mind those things we talked about being curious, not judging and not interpreting or projecting yourself onto people then that's going to help massively in terms of when someone approaches you and feels safe and trusts that they're going to have a great conversation with you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, one of the examples that I could think of too is, like you know when, because leaders often see something happening in isolation, a little bit like, say, for example, the person didn't deliver the thing to the deadline, you know, very common scenario.
Speaker 2:And so if you wanted to demonstrate coaching skills and an environment of trust and safety in this instance, I think you, you know you would have to have a conversation with them where you understand what's going on, how far they're at, like you're only asking really questions and you're checking in with how are they feeling about it? What do they need? You know, might they need support in certain ways, right, um, but you're, you're being empathetic about their situation as opposed to putting on your stress of having to have this deadline be met, right, like that's usually what happens is, like you, we've got to deliver. We don't know if, like, something bad happened in that personal life. You know, um, you know, sometimes I'm trying to remember that like I think you were teaching this actually once in a in a coaching skills for leaders class where you, you started a coaching conversation and this person said somebody died in their lives, like you know.
Speaker 2:So you just don't know where the person stands, if you're not asking the questions, and they would feel really violated, I think, if you were just putting your own stress on them when they haven't met a deadline for what seems to be good reasons on their part right yeah, and that's a good um, that's a really really good good point is you've got to.
Speaker 1:this is the, this is the things we've talked about before, and you've talked about and and is that listening isn't just with your ears, listening is with everything, every way that person is communicating in front of you, and you know the example you're giving, you gave there was. You know, I had someone I was coaching who I could just tell by their facial expression something was wrong, and they weren't present and I asked the question, you know, and that was where I found out what had happened. And so that's by really focusing on the individual and we've talked about this many times, you know that focusing on them that then creates safety and trust.
Speaker 2:You know, it reminds me quite a lot, lot, you know. You know I've been studying these theories of counseling, psychotherapy, and it's just tremendous to me just how much we've actually taken from the greats, you know, the great psychologists of the 20th century mostly and this is very much a huge just a humanistic approach that we take, that we've really translated from humanistic psychology into coaching, where we just assume the very best in the person and we focus on the positive. And we do, you know, we do trust them and we believe in them and we, you know, we really, you know, basically the problem is outside of that person. Like you know, there's so many aspects.
Speaker 2:I feel like we're borrowing from that. In that instance, when we are leading from what I've heard referred to as soul-centered leadership, we're leading and being from a place of kindness. I think it's just curiosity and empathy. Sometimes I feel like in a business context, there isn't a lot of scope for that, because you have to deliver, because you know there are deadlines, because there are board members we report to, or you know trustees we have to report to, and that's, you know. I wonder how leaders can make more space for that because, ultimately, if they can lead from the place I think would automatically meet a lot of the cultivating trust and safety items yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And and this is we talked about this before is um, how do you get yourself into a coaching mindset? And I think that's also important here is sometimes actually the time isn't right for that coaching conversation. You know, like, as a coaching mindset, that's uh, you need to get yourself in the right place. You need to say, actually I'm ready to have a coaching conversation now, because if you're not, if you're trying to do that in between being shouted at by your boss or having a conversation with a customer that's unhappy, then you're not going to be the best person you could be when you turn up either, and that won't create a safe, trustful environment either yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And I think there are other ways also, where you know people can. I think bosses tend to try to ask for and invite feedback, for example, right, but at the same time, if you can tell that they're not really open to receiving that feedback or you know in the company it's widely known that this is a waste of time, then obviously that's going to fall flat on its face. So there, yeah, I just I think there are many different practical examples of where we want to, you know, invite that conversation, the dialogue and the trust.
Speaker 1:And I wrote down here, so you've just the kind of final point I wrote down was about being vulnerable. So one of the ways you create safety and trust is by being vulnerable yourself and as a coach, you know we're, we're taught to be vulnerable and if we're not sure, say we're not sure. You know, I'm not sure where this conversation is going, where would you like it to go next, or I'm not sure how we got here. So, if you're not sure, be vulnerable, be open, and that's the same as a leader. Really key as part of creating that trust and safety is you don't have to have all the answers, you don't have to be the person who can fix everything, just be vulnerable, and that will create that trust and safety as well.
Speaker 2:You know, I think on that front, usually what that's motivated by is that leaders would not very happily admit to their weaknesses, what they believe might be weaknesses, but they're missing the point that actually, you know, what might, in their minds, be a weakness is just making them very human, you know. So if somebody said I'm really sorry, I reacted this way earlier, I was just really stretched thin or like something else was going on, that is enough level of vulnerability. We don't need to overshare our lives, but it makes the person more real, right. And so I feel like when, for example, people have one-to-one, one one-to-one meetings or catch-ups, you know, every month with their manager, line manager, that sort of thing and if you sit down and you kind of feel like they're just very samey, it's like the same structure, you know you talk about the same sort of stuff and you already know how it's going to go and it's really not in service to you, then I think then you might as well leave them out right, like so that I think the the things, one of the things that coaching and and the icf would highlight, is this partnering with the person, right like where you're actually in a dialogue and you know that might include some vulnerability, but it also just um, re-emphasizes this, um, this connectedness with the other person.
Speaker 2:You know, I recently you know I can't remember who said this, but I just thought it was so funny um, somebody had asked the question like so when and how should we get feedback?
Speaker 2:And the the teacher was saying never, basically. And I thought it was so curious because, of course, the whole world is talking about giving feedback, but they said to not give feedback unless asked, because the person would not be open and receiving. So if I came to you and I said, hey, could you give me some feedback on this piece of work that I did, that's one thing, but otherwise people don't want your opinion on how they performed right, and so I think that's a really tricky balance to strike for people also. But imagine if, you know, rather than being managed by feedback, you were managed by praise and by you know point number one that we talked about it being acknowledged for your talents and the gifts that you have know, it seems like there's such a pressured environment in corporate often that there's very little scope for that. It's just all delivery of results driven, and that can make, I think, anyone just feel like a cog in the machine yeah, and that's where you know the leaders have to really work at that.
Speaker 1:And one of the things I encourage my clients to do when I'm coaching leaders is when they're meeting with their employees is to have two meetings a month, or it might be weekly, but you know have. One of them is business, where you're going through the figures, you're going through the numbers, you're going through the performance, you're going through the numbers, you're going through the performance, you're going through all that. And the other one is where you're talking about partnering that word partnering where you're in this session here, laptops off, phones away, I'm just going to focus on you and that's the opportunity to be a coach in that moment, because you've done the performance stuff, you've done that. So create the space is is, I guess, what I'm saying you could even do this in one in the same meeting.
Speaker 2:First half an hour on this, second half an hour on that. I like the separation, personally like what you described, but I just thought. I think the first thing that people might say when they hear is that there's not no time for that.
Speaker 1:We don't have time for that well, you know what they say profits in the people. So if you haven't got time for the people, I know, but you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Right, there's this constant tug of war, uh, between you know, needing to invest the time in the people, and the other thought that I had, you know, even thinking back to my corporate work days, which feels like a lifetime ago. Um, was that you? You know how often how can I put this when I was in conversation with leaders, usually I felt inferior. I can only talk about myself, right, but I think there tends to be a dynamic where the leader is superior and the team member is more inferior. Am I right or am I wrong? Or is this just my experience?
Speaker 2:So I guess where I'm headed with this is that you know if that is the experience that the team member has, you know whether it's just me alone in the world who's ever had that feeling, or if there are other people, of course, you know that might imply. Basically, it made me wonder, like, how does that environment with superiority, inferiority, does that? Could that still be created in a way where there is trust and safety, or could is? Is there an inherent focus on creating an equal partnership when it feels more like an environment of trust and safety? Do you get me?
Speaker 1:Yeah, let me give you my opinion on that.
Speaker 1:I think this is a great discussion and actually I hope people get to this point in the podcast because I think this is really key to the conversation, because the inferior, superior feeling actually that's a reality right at the end of the day.
Speaker 1:You know, a boss is in a more senior position, they've got different responsibilities and whilst they need you know you need the team, because all you need all the skills to enable it, and the leader just said it's one of those skills ultimately there may be a point where that person has to make decisions about who works in the team, who doesn't work in the team.
Speaker 1:So the safety and trust can only go to a certain point. However, in a specific conversation about a specific situation where someone says, look, where you are the leader as a coach and you're using coaching skills, then, um, then you're just a coach and they're a coachee in that situation, um, and the best way of creating safety and trust where you are more senior, you know where you're the boss and you can make decisions around pay and salary and all that sort of stuff is just be open. Just be open, vulnerable, honest about things. You know the situation. Um, I've certainly found that certainly the best leaders I've worked with were like that is you know, don't, don't hide things. As soon as you start hiding things, as soon as you're holding things back, as soon as people think like there's a separate gender, um, then that's where trust gets broken.
Speaker 2:So yeah, also, I think that that what goes in hand with that is this um, I have this sticky note on my kitchen door, on my kitchen cabinet door for my kids, which is ignore the bad, praise the good, which is really what comes out of the conditioning psychology, and it's essentially saying that we will respond much more to being praised on the things that we're doing well as opposed to being critiqued for the things we're doing wrong.
Speaker 2:However, what I've experienced, certainly in the world of work, is, you know, this feedback I'm air quoting feedback which highlights usually what's not been going well, and so I feel like trust can be corroded eroded is the word, I think when you know there's this constant focus on improvement and feedback giving, as opposed to genuinely praising what you can, the one or two things that you can find that the person's doing well, because they will strive to do more of those things that are going to get them that feedback, that positive reinforcement, if you will.
Speaker 2:And so I think, when I look back at one of my best managers it was, you know, this was one, for example, a team leader at Tony Robbins coaching company, the head of coaching, and my one of my bosses at Experian in the UK. What I'm remembering is that they always would highlight the things that I'm doing well. I am sure there were a million things that I didn't do well. I am sure there were a million things that I didn't do well. Right, I was pretty young too, and so. But I wasn't feeling that from them that I was constantly being corrected, and I think sometimes that atmosphere can be really eroding.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and it's easy to spot what's bad and not what's good. It's interesting actually and we are straying kind of in a slightly different topic, but it still is around safety and trust. But, um, I on a um, the leadership detectives podcast, we interviewed, uh, two 25 year olds and we asked them what they're looking for in leaders, and one of the things they said well, look, tell us what we're doing. Well, that's great, but what we want to know is how can we improve? Where are the areas we can grow and improve so we can do a better job? Um, so that they they didn't want to be I know what you're leading to is, you know, constantly being picked up to things you've done wrong, but they wanted to know where their development opportunities were and where the growth opportunities are.
Speaker 1:I think if that's delivered in a, in that, in exactly in that way, is here's an opportunity to develop and grow. And you know this would be if you, if you could do this slightly differently or if you can improve it. But that's where coaching comes in. I mean, if you know that's exactly where coaching is going to come in, is, you know, let's, is this an area you'd like to work on.
Speaker 2:Let's then, let's sit down and let's work on it together right, and it's presupposing that you do know the person well enough to know what their goals are like for their career, but also maybe in their personal life, so that you could even point that out and be like, hey, I know you ultimately want to get to this in this kind of a position. Here's an opportunity for you where you can build the skill or where you can work or shadow you know somebody else in the organization to build that Amazing. I totally agree with those 25-year-olds, because that's really where they are inviting feedback. Right, it's a very proactive way of doing that, and so that makes perfect sense to me and I would absolutely class that under trust. Um, you know, and because you feel like the person's really actually got the best.
Speaker 1:Uh, you know your best interest in mind and and then, and then the leader can use all the coaching skills they've developed and learned to help that person flourish. To help that person flourish, absolutely. So do you think they've got it?
Speaker 2:I think so. I mean you know, I think there are so many ideas in here that help you build some small practices into your leadership approach and where you can really intentionally cultivate, you know, the safety and the trust that you know would be helpful in your organization right and really helping everybody feel valued and like they matter and that they're being listened to. And I think it must make for a nicer work environment for a leader. It must. It can't possibly be a worse, worse experience.
Speaker 1:So it might be worth your investment in time and the and the people and anybody else who works with you. So, um, no, look, thank you for listening, thanks for joining us on this conversation today. Uh, it's always great to have these conversations with you, yana, and really enjoy. Hopefully, everybody listening to this has taken something away that they can practically use. Please leave us feedback, comments, thoughts. We love to read those and hear what you've got to say, and thank you for all the comments and thoughts you've left us in the past as well, absolutely so. I'll let you wrap up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean listen. We've enjoyed having this conversation. We hope that you found it really useful, that it's given you some new, inspired thoughts as to how you can bring more trust and safety into your way of being as leader, as well as into your daily lives at work and at home, and we are looking forward to hearing what you have to say and maybe what questions you might have. I would also be curious to hear about any pushback you have, really like why doesn't this work, or where doesn't this work, or what's in the way of creating that in your workplace, because then we can maybe speak to those items at a later stage in another podcast. So until then, have a wonderful rest of the day. Thank you again for listening and thanks, neil, always a pleasure to of the day.
Speaker 1:Thank you again for listening and thanks, neil. Always a pleasure to chat with you. Thank you, cheers, bye. Thank you for listening to Coaching Skills for Leaders podcast with Jana and Neil. If you found the conversation useful, please share with your colleagues and friends. Please also leave us a rating and a review, and if you would like to connect with us directly to discuss your own or your business needs, you will find our contact details in the show notes below.
