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The Opera Glasses Podcast
Hosted for Season one and two by Elizabeth Bowman, former Editor-in-Chief of Opera Canada. Season three will be hosted by Michael Jones, the new Editorial Director of Opera Canada. This is a place to hold discussions about the opera business that are tougher to editorialize in print and to expand on the current whims of the business.
The Opera Glasses Podcast
Why Aren't We Asking WHY?!
Why isn't anyone asking the hard questions about opera's future? In this riveting conversation, soprano Lucia Cesaroni and Tapestry Opera's Executive Director Jamie Martino challenge the status quo of an art form at a crossroads.
"Wagner ruined opera," declares Cesaroni provocatively, questioning why we still expect modern audiences to sit through four-hour performances in darkened theaters when their lives demand more flexible, social experiences. The pair dive deep into why opera companies across Canada are struggling financially despite passionate dedication from artists and administrators alike.
The conversation ventures beyond simple diagnosis into bold territory: What if opera was more like a comedy club? Why do taxpayer-funded performance spaces sit empty most nights? How might unions and companies collaborate to create sustainable models? And perhaps most importantly, why does the industry remain so resistant to change?
Martino offers a radical reframing that could transform how we approach these challenges: "I am profoundly uninterested in the question 'how do we save opera?' I am interested in what we can do about the ways that we work and the kind of art that we make that will make people's lives better." This shift from institutional preservation to human impact opens new possibilities for reinvention.
Listen to this thought-provoking episode, sponsored by the Lavazza IncluCity Festival.
All episodes of The Opera Glasses podcast are hosted by the editor of Opera Canada, currently Michael Jones after Elizabeth Bowman hosted seasons 1 and 2. Follow Opera Canada on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and Visit OperaCanada.ca for all of your Canadian Opera news and reviews.
Hello and welcome to Opera Glasses. This is the official podcast of Opera Canada magazine. Once again today, we're inviting two people to join us on the podcast for what should be a very spirited conversation. We have joining us soprano Lucia Cesareone, who's also a mother and a business consultant and a very active singer and a writer for the magazine, and we have Jamie Martino, who also has a young baby at home. Jamie is the executive director at Tapestry Opera.
Speaker 2:Before we get into the episode, I should say that today's episode is being sponsored by the Lavazza Inclusity Festival. Get ready, Toronto. The Lavazza Inclusity Festival is taking over the Distillery District from June 27th to July 20th. Enjoy free live music from incredible multicultural artists every afternoon in the Open Air Festival Village and then stay for free samples and international movie screenings under the stars A perfect summer night out. Enjoy the great vibes and the amazing performances. Don't miss it. There's more information at icffca and, as we'll refer to at the end, Lucia is actually performing this year at the Lavazza Inclusive City Festival, so we'll get more details on her performance later.
Speaker 2:But first I wanted to give a little bit of a background for this podcast. Lucia writes a regular column for Opera Canada magazine called Stage Business and when she submitted her last one, which was really an op-ed piece, which she titled why Aren't we Asking why? She really questioned the way in which we are working in this business and, as a crossover with the magazine, as a tease for that issue, it should be out on newsstands at the beginning of July. I also wanted to interview Lucia and a company manager Jamie contributed to that one of the questions to that article, to Lucia's list of theses. So I thought it would be an interesting time to have this conversation and I'm going to start by going to Lucia and saying why, why this article? Why? Now Look, I'm asking why.
Speaker 1:Well, first of all, I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for hosting us. Michael Jamie's my boo. She's a dear, dear friend of mine, so it's fun to have any time to hang out with her, formal or informal.
Speaker 1:We need to ask why, and, jamie, we talk like this, you know, two drinks and post-show vibes and we're not alone in that. There are so many of us right who are questioning the paradigms that we have accepted for a long time, in details and in, as I said, in paradigm big picture thinking. So I think it's a timely article and some timely questions, because the industry is struggling in Canada, to put it politely. Yes, I see the budgets, the numbers. There are ever fewer companies and symphonies and while there are lots of bright spots Tapestry being a huge one and I will sing their praises literally from the rooftops at every opportunity there are so many companies who resist change and therefore, unlike Tapestry, who is, I would say, at the vanguard of change and of being unafraid to ask why? Uh, it's time to do just that and we also have an opportunity, although maybe it doesn't seem like one right now.
Speaker 1:We exist in a scarcity mindset in this industry because we never have enough money, there's never enough time rehearsal. Everything is constantly uh constantly truncated and shortened time in the theater, not to mention budgets. You know and this is all Jamie's purview right, we'll get into that Fewer administrators being asked to do more and more, overworked and underpaid. Right, we have an opportunity. If we exist in so little, then we have nothing to lose. At this point, it's time to think abundantly and choose to act thusly. That does, however, mean shaking some trees and having some difficult conversations.
Speaker 2:Okay, and Jamie, you saw you had the spoiler and I sent you an early copy of the article, although it was pre-published. So who knows what it will look like in the end, but you did see an early copy. Do you understand where Lucia is coming from? What's your basic reaction to A what she just said, but also B what's been written?
Speaker 3:said, but also be what's been written. Yeah, I mean, of course I do. I didn't grow up in opera. I have built my connection to legacy repertoire since I came to tapestry, so my relationship with the sector is because of tapestry, which is very different from Lucia, and so for me I see a lot.
Speaker 3:It is really hard to do things differently. It's hard to do things for the first time. It's emotionally really difficult to learn by making mistakes, which is unfortunately the best way to learn lessons, which is a cruel, a cruel trick of our human brains. There is never enough time and the pressure to produce is immense. And because of that pressure, combined with how hard it is to do things differently than you've always done them, the path of least resistance, the most efficient path, often the smoothest path and the quickest way to get where you're going, is the way that they've always been done, and that is not unique to our sector at all, but it is.
Speaker 3:It is contextually relevant because of the kinds of conversations that this sector has been having since I came into it 10 years ago, which is how do we save opera, how do we get new audiences, how do we get our subscribers to come back, how do we get people to fall in love with this art form again, and I cannot imagine this sector without those conversations. I don't know when that would have been in time it sounds like not as long as Lucia has been there either, and I do. I do feel like our answers have been collectively. Obviously there's a huge amount of variation here, but collectively the answers do seem to have been if people just saw, they would understand that we have something that they want and they just don't know that they want it yet more of what we know how to do, do it harder or faster, rather than to say what if we did two shows a year instead of three, and we did a five out of seven day rehearsal schedule and we redistributed the money that we would have spent on that third show to the two shows that we're doing and we extended the rehearsal process so that we could end at five so people could go pick up their children. What if we like and and those are, so that we could pay people better?
Speaker 3:Um, and I'm not going to pretend that we always make those decisions at tapestry either those would be hard decisions to make, and I have to believe that there is. There is not really. I don't know that there is a future in which we don't have to ask some hard questions like I. I don't know that there is an option for us to carry on as we are or as we have been, and again, not in opera, but but like in the arts in general and maybe in not-for-profits in general, and so I I am really interested in in and maybe in not for profits in general, and so I I am really interested in in structure and like theoretical frameworks and power dynamic like that. That is my bread and butter, and so I like to think about why things operate the way that they operate, and what if we did this and what would that mean for whom. But it's also, it's also a habitual practice that can be really challenging to build, and it is what's required.
Speaker 1:We're in an era where I mean, when has time not been the most precious resource? Truly Okay. Oh, you know and you you touched on this a couple of times in in what you've just been talking about, for example, to me. So one of the why questions I asked and it's similar to the one Jamie asked why can't we have a 90 minute opera with food at the end and drinks at the beginning and amazing night out? What so? Again, if we take the paradigm of no one has enough time, no-transcript.
Speaker 1:Most of the time, most people have children, have babysitters, have lives, have families the idea I mean, hot, take Wagner, ruined opera. I've said this to many, many people. It gets me in trouble every time. Bring it on, come at me, come at me. Wagner Society.
Speaker 1:The idea that we are still doing things as Wagner, on high, proclaimed that they should be done today is insane. I even wonder if Wagner would sit here and be like, in this contemporary context, how are you asking people to still sit there for four hours? How are you asking people to still sit there for four hours? You know, because, obviously for context for those of you who aren't dorks like we are, you know, it wasn't just that Wagner wrote really long operas. He also changed the entire way we we experience opera. Right, we it's fully in the dark there's there are fewer intermissions. It's harder. There are fewer gaps in the rows, fewer boxes in the theater. Right, the idea is keep people immobile and focused on the action on stage rather than a social experience that is dynamic and cultural and messy, right and where we can.
Speaker 1:As I loved Jamie's question and that's why I'm so glad that she's here today why can't it be more like a comedy club? You know what's doing great comedy on. You know, in its many forms. By the way, there are many iterations of how you can experience comedy. Why can't we do iterations of opera, of opera you know, and, and and I'm not saying this to you, michael generally speaking, the immediate retort would be we have indie opera, okay, but generally speaking, indie opera is still sitting in a thing, sit looking forward and watching, maybe in an industrial cool space, right, or something. It's still. I still feel like it's only treating the symptom, not the root cause of the illness also isn't the part of the sector that's struggling the most?
Speaker 3:yeah, right, but they also don't make a lot of money and their budgets are really low right, the budgets are low. It's not like everyone is swimming in dough at the indie level, but we're we're not asking the same questions and we're not beholden to the same legacies.
Speaker 1:I don't even consider you indie. I mean in the sense that yeah.
Speaker 3:I'm not sure that we are necessarily. We're pretty solid and well-funded.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and Tapestry is probably in the 10 largest companies budget size in the country.
Speaker 3:We are actually number 10, yeah.
Speaker 2:And that changes, and I've been going through those figures recently. But what you say about the indie opera community maybe doesn't have those same problems. They certainly, as I've been looking at the figures this is a teaser for the fall issue of our magazine, but I've been looking at the budgets of companies and their financial returns for the fiscal year that ended in 2024. Yeah, of our magazine, but I've been looking at the budgets of companies and their financial returns for the fiscal year that ended in 2024. And about well, seven out of the 10 largest companies had operating deficits in that fiscal year. And in the next 30, because we look at the top 40, there's probably about 11 or 12.
Speaker 2:that number I'm not quite so sure, but it really says the indie companies are doing this slightly different ways now the larger companies of course have endowments and things that they can afford to run a deficit, so they are choosing to do so, possibly at this period.
Speaker 3:But yeah, and there's big big houses and big collective bargaining agreements and tons and tons of infrastructure and overhead and like that can be. That can be really, really valuable, but I think it's a real double-edged sword and particularly, um, particularly in the wake of the pandemic, when it became really challenging for big companies to to change the way they operated to address the current climate, and I don't I mean that feels like the shackles of of legacy when I think about what is it that's holding down the sector? It's, it's. It's it's the idea that opera looks like this one thing in this big house with a hundred piece orchestra and you're flying in your diva from Sweden, and maybe your chorus is local, some of them, and maybe they come from your academy, and but the big name? But you're, you're getting big names that you booked five years ago.
Speaker 1:So you can't change your programming and you have to fill this house and and those are hard problems that I am glad I don't have to solve- Well, so let's just take one of them right, because you listed, I agree with you all of those things are heavy and weighing increasingly right on the larger institutions. Let's take collective bargaining. So that's another one of the whys I asked in the article. I come from a construction family, so I deeply respect, I deeply respect, I know from unions and I understand the need and the value of that community and that collective space and those rights. And, okay, especially considering how little artists are still valued in this country, we need advocates. However, there are so many unions in any one theater, so take any of them. They're all similar in Canada in terms of the bigger ones across the country.
Speaker 1:There must be a point at which we say, okay, these houses sit empty far too many nights a year. As one example, the cost of turning on the lights is absolutely prohibitive. If these are, in fact, largely taxpayer funded institutions, how can it be that they are not available to our public all the time? There has to be an. I give the union leadership full credit that they would understand that. Now, I'm not advocating this as an easy solution or an easy fix, but there's gotta be a leader, there's gotta be someone who can bring, who has the, the expertise but also the charisma to bring together these various different unions with different mandates? Right, and say, guys, in order for us to have work in five years, in 10 years, something's got to change.
Speaker 1:I love exactly what Jamie was saying. Where can we move the money around? Reallocate, think smarter. Also, when was the last time we asked other unions how they were doing it? Construction is an excellent example. We think opera is complicated. It's nothing compared to putting up any kind of major structure. Nothing, nevermind transit or you know. Okay, how are they doing it elsewhere?
Speaker 1:This is another sort of why that didn't quite make it into the article. But, like, why isn't our industry really looking and going and doing the legwork elsewhere? Where is it working elsewhere? Right, where are the pieces? For example, union collective bargaining would be one of them where we could learn from other sectors, where it's an uneasy piece but it's a piece nonetheless and there is a success rate and there is a profitability. I mean, I could go on. That brings me to another. Why is like, why is money still a dirty word in our industry? Right, and Jamie, I'd love to hear you because we've talked about this too the myth of the of the starving Bohem and the idea that somehow that is that's also super anti-family right. So I just I want to throw that to you because I know you have thoughts on this and I really like them.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I have, uh, I have so many thoughts on this, um, so I think like it's, it's useful for me uh, perhaps your listeners can judge for themselves to frame this in sort of as an inevitable and in some ways intentional outcome of a 50-year neoliberal project to divorce us from one another, to undermine the idea of a society that we all collectively buy into, to undermine the idea that we owe each other something or that our shared culture is a shared legacy, that we are equally responsible for protecting.
Speaker 3:A project that tells the very wealthy that they can donate and that lets our tax dollars off the hook, like our government funding should in in a beautiful world, would, would provide what we needed in in ways that they it's imperfect, but in ways that they do in europe. That's how you keep those big houses is they are, they are state supported, and so there is, there is a a larger collective divestment from our shared culture. There is also a very real like inflation is real, and the problems of housing in a city like Toronto are real and over the pandemic, we lost artists, we lost designers, we lost technicians, we lost laborers, because people couldn't afford to live in the city anymore, and that is to the detriment of all of us. And and it's it's on the non-artist side as well. How do we, how do we get the the best marketing staff member, when our salaries are a fraction of what a bank will pay and the? The work is on a totally different scale and the problem, as always, is capitalism and the way that we-.
Speaker 2:And there we disagree. We always come, we do always that's good. We'll let Jamie finish and then I'll hear the disagreement.
Speaker 3:The problem is let me rephrase, the problem is, let me rephrase, the problem is the brand of capitalism that we are practicing now, which does not see it as its job to ensure the success of all of its citizens, the thriving of culture, the robustness of life, and hours are longer and pay goes less far and like. Those are just realities of the world that we are in right now, and that is what makes it so difficult, I think, to see another way of working, because it's not like the problems that the arts face are the same problems that every not-for-profit sector is facing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely yeah, it's really I'm sort of joking we agree fundamentally in that this country does not value arts. So there are pieces that understand, there are individuals that understand that overwhelmingly. We don't teach kids about it, right, that funding dried up long ago, so the pipeline is non-existent. We don't create public spaces where art is accessible nearly enough, as happens in Europe. Public versus private money I think it's fair to have incentives to ask people to part with their money, like a tax incentive is fair.
Speaker 1:Um, however, canada is a very rich country and I make this case to wealthy people all the time. It is your responsibility and, uh, europe, europeans and actually americans in a lot of ways, understand this more than Canadians. Old money in quotations in America understood that they had a responsibility now to uphold the cultural institutions of the country in which they've had so much success. Right, that is an old world way of thinking. It's gone by the wayside. People say to me oh, we just need to get the italians out. You know they live up in woodbridge and you know opera. It's a natural parent. I'm like what do you think italians know about opera and woodbridge have you ever gone up to? And we've had this conversation a lot right.
Speaker 1:It's also about creating incentives again for the wealthy to part with more of their money. I agree with you, they could all be a lot more generous. And then it's also about but then, what do they want? Are we giving people what they want? I don't think so, really. Are we actually like? Have we ever asked the constituencies what? What would you come to Like? What would it take, you know, to get you what? Or or even scrape data from other industries? What are they going to see? What are they spending their, their disposable income on these days? What can that tell us? How can we I mean, tapestry does a far better job of this right. I mean things like RUR, r-u-r sorry, I'm never sure it's R-U-R right, that's dumb, lucia, it's not RUR.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean incredible show with. You know famous science fiction text and you know just even the space that it was in the composer with which you worked, like all of these elements. People want to see stuff like that. We know they go to see those kinds of movies. We know they read those kinds of books. Right, that's a win, it's an absolute win.
Speaker 1:Why are we doing more of that? Why are we asking constituencies what do you want to see, what do you already go and see? And in that way to get back to your earlier point creating incentives some of them could be tax-based, but a lot of them are sort of experiential, you know, to a donor class or a patron class. Why are we creating an opportunity for good networking for these people, right? I mean, there are all kinds of ways to do it differently and smash the paradigm that we just refuse to do. And I don't name names, but I've gone to so many opera companies and said why don't we try something like this?
Speaker 1:And the answer in Canada is always no. The answer in Canada is always no, and that will be a problem. That is a cultural problem, right, and Jamie and I talked about this too, Michael. I'd be interested to know your thoughts, having run an arts organization. I think it's a cultural problem. We're so risk averse in this country that we don't. It's not a natural environment for the messy, inefficient world of culture to thrive. Right Risk, full risk, some.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I mean, I think that the sector as a whole and this is not opera, this is the arts sector as a whole is, particularly when you get into larger institutions, which is what houses a lot of opera tends to be larger institutions, apart from the indies that we talked about, um, but often those, those organizations, become very risk averse because their boards also become very risk averse. They say, yes, we must do bohemian carmen every year, because that's what's going to sell us tickets, or, you know, and, and, and it's hard to say. You know, actually part of our mandate is to push this art form. What we, what can we make it look like? Yeah, I'm really conscious of the time, because I try to keep these podcasts, so around half an hour and we've been going for some time already.
Speaker 2:I'm going to ask you if you had one big statement. This is what needs to change. This is the first thing that I would tackle. This is, how you know, changing a sector and I had this conversation about arts funding with a reporter at the Toronto Star the other day Changing how that sector works. It's the story of eating an elephant right, one bite at a time, but if you don't know what that first bite is, then it's hard, then it's insurmountable, because it's not just one bite at a time, it's figuring out how to even start. So the one big thing that you would do, that could begin to make change and you can dream big too.
Speaker 3:I'll tell you the one that gets me out of bed. I am profoundly uninterested in the question how do we save opera? I am interested in what we can do about the ways that we work and the kind of art that we make and the way that we make it. That will make people's lives better. I am interested in using the work that we do, whatever that work is, as a tool to make the world better. And I think you do that where you are, in the networks you already have with the people you already know and the tools that are already in your hand. And I think if you start from there, it doesn't always feel like change then, and the people who are in your circle will bring other people into their circle. People who are in your circle will bring other people into their circle and I, for me, that is where that is where my heart lives and that is the thing that keeps me motivated.
Speaker 3:I think it's really easy in in most sectors. You know, I was just. I went. I took a few weeks off after my second son was born and I went back to work and I was complaining to a friend of mine about how this sector isn't kind to young parents and she was like well name a sector that is, and I thought, well, fair enough, Fair enough, but ours doesn't have to be like that. We don't have to work each other to the bone, we don't have to maintain these levels of stress. We don't have to maintain a pace. No one is going to die. What we do is so, so important, and it is not life and death and therefore we should be thinking about how we care for each other and how we use the power that we have and the tools that we have to make people's lives better. That's where I would start.
Speaker 1:Wow, I mean I would start. Wow, I mean I cannot top that, not even close. I would love to see. I really agree with Jamie in the sense that the question we're asking, the wrong question about how do we save opera, that's already the wrong question. We should be asking what do people want? What do people want Period, and therefore, out of that I would like to see the one thing I have 20, but the one big thing is a far more robust national network of theater companies, of operas, of ballet companies, what's it called Pollinating, cross-pollinating each other right, because so many of the good ideas are like being tried right over there.
Speaker 1:If we could create more economies of scale this is an old hobby horse of mine in our industry, but to me it's the one thing that could really change things. So if we had a more robust there's technically a national network that is connected and meets, but I want to see co-productions, I want to see way more new Canadian works produced so the tapestry is not taking all that risk on all the time, right. So and also so that we can see different kinds of Canadian works. And that could be done if we had far more sharing right Of resources, not only of of production costs, but admin costs, right? Um, we could be working so much smarter again if we could create scale across the country.
Speaker 1:These markets are not in competition with each other it makes me nuts. None of them are our, our country's huge right. There's no competition. We're not everyone's. I understand it's scarcity mindset. Again, we could start to dispel this scarcity thinking if we thought as big as our country actually is and enacted those networks for our thriving, for our good, for giving people what they want.
Speaker 2:This episode of Op Glasses is a really good tease, I think, for our summer issue of the magazine, because, in addition to Lucia's questions and asking opening conversations about why aren't we doing this, why are we doing things this way, there's also an article by Dr Suzanne Steele, who is a Métis librettist. She wrote the libretto for Lee Kerr Riel's Heart of the North that premiered at Manitoba Opera, and she has an entire article questioning what does it take to get second productions in Canada, and and and. It is that one of the things that comes up time and time again is that co-production idea, but there is a sense that that's punitive somehow in your funding and doesn't attract the same cachet that a world premiere does. And and, and, and and. But what it leads to is what I call opera on the scrap heap, which is things in which we invest a lot of resources, a vast amount of time, that develop so far. Get one production could continue to improve through subsequent productions and don't so.
Speaker 3:Story of my life.
Speaker 2:Well, and, jamie, incredible props to you at Tapestry, because not only do you work in co-productions with other companies, I know that you also returned to your legacy repertoire, like this year's production of Sanctuary Song, which gave people a chance to revisit it, to see the piece again or to see the piece for a first time, for it to reach many, many new people. I want to thank both of you. This has been fascinating. It's going to be a very long podcast, I was about to say, and that's okay, but that is what we are. These are big questions.
Speaker 2:I am pleased, lucia, that you're asking these questions and that Opera Canada gets to be one of the vehicles that you can use to ask the questions. Canada gets to be one of the vehicles that you can use to ask the questions. I am incredibly thankful for the work that Tapestry does, because I believe that, in many cases, some of these questions they're beginning to grapple with answers for, and so incredible thanks to you, jamie, and to Michael and to all of the staff at Tapestry for the work that you continue doing. Thank you, of course, to our listeners for joining us for this episode of Opera Classes, which, once again, was sponsored today by the Lovazza Inclusity Festival between June 27th and July 20th at the Distillery District in Toronto. Now you're singing, lucia.
Speaker 1:So I am producing and singing. Um, this is something that I wish more artists, more opera companies uh saw as a possibility. So this is not just about, yes, I'm producing and singing. Uh, on July 11th, we are doing La Dolce Voce so classic Italian hits, and some lovely musical theater too, to keep it light and breezy in the summer, paired with the sexiest Italian cinema so Mastroianni and De Sica, and Fellini, and all the fabulousness that that entails. We have a pre-party. We do it Italian style. Come have a spritz, come have a snack, Sit outdoors in a gorgeous open distillery space under the stars, listen to us sing, watch some beautiful movie clips and then follow us just around the corner in the distillery. Come have an after party. We've got gelato, we've got pizza, we've got all the, all the fixings. Come in, come and have a night of it, the thing that I preach, I am practicing. Come have a full experience of an evening with some opera in the middle.
Speaker 2:Thank you for telling us about that, lucia. Anybody who can get here, I would advise you to join at the Distillery District on July 11th for La Dolce Voce, which is part of the Lavazza Inclus City Festival. Again, you can get more information at icffca. Oh, and my other advice after Lucia's description is remember that day is the cheat day on your diet, so plan the week knowing that July 11th is going to be your cheat day. Thank you so much for being with me today, lucia and Jamie. It has been a real pleasure to speak with you and, once again, thank you to our listeners. This is the final episode for season three of Opera Glasses podcast, but please come back to us in September, october, for the beginning of season four. Thank you for joining us. Once again, it's Michael Jones for Opera Glasses Podcast.