#178 Check In: SXSW, Creator Burnout, Quad Pod, Cross Grips

In this check in episode, we talk about our journeys as creators comparing youtube, podcasting, streaming, and then get into jiu jitsu and explore the quad pod, cross grips, and concepts like using connection vs grips. Hope you enjoy!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Hello. What's up, Josh? What's up, Jake? Welcome back from Austin.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Thank you. I think our listeners will be disappointed to know that uh I did not go to Kingsway or Simple Man or any other jiu-jitsu chip for that matter.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Yeah, but it sounds like your conference was fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

It was cool. I thought South by South of us was gonna be uh like, oh, it's gonna be like a work conference thing, like blah, whatever. And then I show up and I s there's so many different topics and tracks, and then I ended up um going to a lot of the creator economy stuff, a lot of podcasting stuff to see meet other podcasters, hear other stories about other people podcasting, and just people in the creator space, which is cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Nice. What were some of the uh takeaways you had from it?

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Yeah, I think uh one takeaway I've been telling a lot of people is um for these people who have been successful, I just have so much more respect for all the inner work and mindset stuff that they had to get over and overcome to get to the place that they're at. Like all the fear of judgment or like how they deal with the comment section, the creativity, the boredom, like the grind, like there's so much mental stuff they had to like this mental fortitude to build up to get to where they're at. Um, and then another key takeaway was um some of these guys are full-time podcasters and stuff, and they're making good money off ads or however else. When I tell them about stories like Outlier Database, they're like, that's the dream. Like they were like, as a creator, like if you can make a product directly and set like the subscription that find a way to add value to your audience, that's like they were like, that's the golden like scenario. So that's good news for for you and hopefully for me as I continue to build Sherpa, uh, which I've still lost money on for a long time. But anyway, uh, so those are two big takeaways. And uh yeah, creator burnout was like a big theme across a lot of the different people because before we started recording, we were saying how YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, creators, it's like one of the few creative pursuits that doesn't have a downtime or like an off season where musicians, um, people who make movies, comedy specials, most creatives, they go, they have their process and then they put something out, they do this big tour, they market it, then they go back to their cave, they refill the well, they take care of themselves, and new creative stuff gets born out of that for the next time. But someone like you, someone like us with our podcast, with your channel, weekly, and even you know, YouTube and the short form stuff is even like a daily algorithm that wants it stuff daily, multiple times a day. So that was just an interesting theme of like how to stay engaged, continue the joy of creating, even though your livelihood could depend on you putting stuff out. It's it's an interesting conundrum. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

Yeah. Okay. So there's the first thing you're talking about is like the mental hurdles you have to overcome. I think this is uh yeah, I think like with everything, it's often like glamorized a bit. And then when you actually kind of peel back the curtain, you're like, dang, there's a lot more um behind this, you know. And it's like the classic thing that is talked about in business where like before you start something, you have like the blind optimism where you're like, Oh, I got this all figured out, it's gonna be easy. And then like you actually start doing it, and then you get the like um you're slightly more educated, and now you're very pessimistic because you're like, this is a lot harder than I thought it was gonna be. Um so yeah, uh, yeah, agreed.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

Um what were some of the big hurdles for you um as you've grown your channel?

SPEAKER_00 5:07

Well, I think the burnout thing is very interesting. It's hard to hard to navigate. Um, in this, because exactly like you said, like the algorithm rewards you for being consistent, but you also want to make sure that the level of content is there and you have something interesting to say. So yeah, it's it's hard to to balance that because like a lot of times, like it reminds me honestly of a comment on one of my previous my recent videos. Someone was like, dude, I don't know what is going on with your channel because like you'll come in and you'll make some videos for like a month and then you'll like disappear for like three weeks, and then you'll come back, and then you'll make some videos, and then you'll disappear for a while. And uh I think like my mindset at the beginning was I need to be as consistent as possible. And now I've kind of shifted more towards the focus of I want to make sure I have something interesting to say before I make a video. And unfortunately, what this means is like a lot of times you have to like stop making content so you can go out and like fill your cup again and get some new ideas and play with some stuff, and then now you have something interesting to say. Um, and it's exactly like you were talking about like musicians, movies, whatever. It's like maybe you do like one a year, and then the rest of the time is, you know, creative. Where with YouTube and like Instagram type content, it's almost reverse where you're like expected to spend 80% of your time making content and then 20% of your time being creative, you know? Um, so yeah, it is it is interesting and hard. And it's fun when you're very motivated and you feel like you have something to talk about. And then it's not fun when you're like, it's Friday, I'm supposed to put out a video on Tuesday, and I'm not really sure what I'm gonna talk about. Um, so yeah, like I've I've tried to not hold myself as strictly to a schedule, and it might be because I have the luxury now of having the database. So the ad revenue is not something that I'm reliant on anymore. Um so that has given me a nice peace of mind. Um but uh yeah, like when you have to put out content to make money off of ads, it you basically have to be consistent with it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

Um so yeah. Do you think in the early days you kind of have to be consistent, right? But now, like you said, since you've been able to monetize in other ways, you have the I guess the luxury, you've earned the luxury to not have to put something out like all the time.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

Yeah, I would say that's a good way. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. And I think I think so just going off the topic of making money, there are like tiers of making money, which is like you can make money by, you know, selling other people's products. You can make money by getting a percentage of selling other people's products, such as like an affiliate program or something like that. And then you can make your own product and sell it. So a lot of times when you're starting out, you're on the lower tier of that, because it's much easier to be like, you know, pay me$200 for this video and I'll put a 30-second ad in the video. Um, and then when you start to gain more traction, people might offer you like affiliate um deals, and then you can start making money off of, you know, affiliate type deals and getting a percentage of the sales. And then um, like I think it's much harder to do, which is why not a lot of people do it. Um, but making your own product does I think afford you the luxury of not having to constantly put out content, even though putting out more the more content the better, you know. Like at the end of the day, you're trying to get leads and more eyes on whatever product you're trying to sell. Um, but at least for me, having a subscription-based product gives you more like reliability in revenue, and it doesn't have that same pressure to feel like I need constant eyeballs on me, you know.

SPEAKER_01 9:31

Yeah. How did you get over the the creator burnout piece?

SPEAKER_00 9:36

Yeah, I don't I think again, I think it's something that I pushed through a lot at the beginning. And now I maybe like you said, I've kind of like earned the luxury to not have to worry about it as much. Um so like for example, um if like nowadays, if I don't have something interesting to say, I just go and I watch a bunch of matches. And then like through watching matches, it might take a week, it might take two weeks. Um, but either way, like if I'm watching matches and entering data, I'm making the database better. And if I find something while I'm entering data, I'm like, that's really cool. Then I'll start to start working on it, start like prepping for a video about that given thing. So yeah, I think like back in the day, it was like I would try to come up with content and I found myself like repeating myself a bit and like it just didn't seem like I had something new to say every time. Whereas now I feel like every video is like a new idea that I've been um experimenting with, you know. So yeah, I think like the burnout thing is something that I just, you know, put my head down and grinded through the while I was really motivated in the YouTube space. And then um, yeah, as you kind of lose a little bit of that motive. I can mean the motivation doesn't go away, it just I think yeah, ebbs and flows. Um, so when the motivation isn't there, then you have other things that you can do. So for me, that's entering data. And then that will give me some inspiration on what I want to dive into next based on what I see.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

Yeah, Dan, that makes sense. Um yeah, those were some of my big takeaways. Let me see. I and I guess my other one would be like there's so many niche things. Like there's a guy who he got his start by uh he was a writer and he he liked writing scary stories, so he would just write these short, scary stories and and read them, and that's his podcast. And it started to grow, and then he started monetizing that with ads, and then people started asking, like, wait, are these scary stories real or are they fake? And he's like, No, no, I'm I'm a writer, like these are fake. Like, no, we want real stories. So then he started looking up stories and write finding nonfiction stories, started a second podcast and started doing non-fiction scary stories, and then he eventually branched off, started a third one where listeners call in and tell him their scary stories. And I'm like, what? This is so niche, but full-time career. This is what he does. He tells crazy, yeah, it's super cool. Um, there were yeah, just a lot of different random examples like this, where people find something that they enjoy, and then I guess they one thing is like you have to enjoy it enough to like want to keep going. Um, and then for the burnout, a lot of people said that you have to try to like find ways to freshen it up, new maybe new formats, like go wide again and try different stuff. I think a lot of people in the beginning, the the advice is like go wide, figure out what you like, what formats are working, and then zero in. But once you zero in for so long, maybe it's time to go wide again. Yeah. So yeah, pretty, pretty interesting uh conversations. Very cool.

SPEAKER_00 13:01

Yeah, it's I mean it it sounds it makes sense why you didn't uh go to any jujitsu post. Like it sounds like it would be a lot of helpful information and you could find what you were interested in and and kind of you know uh learn about that. And I think this is very helpful for both you and I.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

Yeah, yeah. I've been trying to think about it for our podcast because we've been doing this for wait, how many episodes are we on? Let me see. Something to celebrate for sure. Let me just see real quick. I want to say a hundred and this must be like 170 something, maybe. 100 Yeah, this will be like almost 180 episodes. It's like three solid years of of podcasting. Um, and like I love when as I've been reflecting on our podcasting journey, like I love, I feel like the first few years were like always, every week, something to talk about because it's all new to me, you know what I mean? And then eventually I remember sometimes I would text you, like, Oh, I'm having trouble with this, and you're like, Yeah, we we covered that already. I'm like, shit, yeah, I should probably just go back to that episode and relist, or else I'm gonna make Jake repeat everything again about how I'm having trouble getting the hooks in front of that. And then so I was like, hmm, how can I like freshen it up? Maybe go to smaller positions, like today I was thinking about talking about four-point, but eventually there's you know, you run out of positions. Um, and then I was yeah, so I've been trying to figure out how we maybe continue to have fun on on the podcast. Um, obviously, conversations like this during the check-ins where we allow ourselves to just go off on whatever entrepreneurial tangents is really fun. Uh, and it's we're lucky some some people are interested in it. Um, I love the interviews personally, like those always I don't know about you, but those are always super fun. Like no matter who you have on, there's just a little more work in prep, but I think it's worth it. But yeah, what are your thoughts with the podcast? And because you do, yeah, podcast YouTube database, teach jujitsu. Like they all kind of relate to each other, but I don't know what you what are your reflections on on podcasting? And we don't have to include this if we can cut this out if if needed, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:15

Um I guess my goal, like I I think it's important to think about like what your goal is with whatever you're trying to do. And honestly, my goal with the podcast wasn't necessarily to get like a bunch of like views necessarily. Um, although now you're using it as your primary marketing tool for Sherpa. So the goals may, you know, change. Um, but at least for me, I thought it was a good like workshop kind of um discussion. And it could be helpful when I'm making YouTube videos. So I could kind of like, as I'm in the middle of thinking about a video, I could talk to you about it, and then um it might bring up some stuff that I didn't consider and then I can add it in. So that's kind of the way I was viewing it. Um, but yeah, you you might have different goals. So we haven't had those conversations in a long time. I know it's been a long time. It might be important to revisit this.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

Yeah, yeah. No, I'm glad. And now we're doing it live. No, not live, but uh recorded on air. But um yeah, I think uh there definitely there definitely is like an overlapping goal in that way where I'm so much newer in jujitsu, uh, where like you could we could talk about anything that you're talking about, and I could just be like, well, what about this? What about that? And then it kind of like puts you in the hot seat to like try to answer all these questions along the way. Um, but then my topics don't always line up with what you're you're thinking about. Um yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:53

Yeah. And I I will say, like, a lot of the times we discuss topics, um, especially that I bring to the table, and especially honestly, if if you bring them to the table, um, like the ones that you bring to the table are not necessarily fresh in my mind because I haven't been thinking about it. But the ones that I am thinking about, they're not like fully fleshed out most of the time. And it's kind of like when you say, What about this? And if I don't have a necessarily a good answer, this is a good thing for me to go back and try to, you know, revisit before I make the YouTube video. So um, yeah, I find it to be very helpful. And that's kind of the way I was yeah, thinking about the the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 17:34

Oh, okay, okay. This is actually really helpful. It's almost like it's uh who's picking the topic is flipping. Because like for many years, it was always me because I had nothing. I was like, what? It dude, bottom side control sucks, you know. I would just be like that. And it was more about us having fun doing this for the first time. And so now I wonder if maybe it makes more sense where you bring topics, and I'm like, holy shit, I haven't thought about that, and let me be the ignorant audience and represent them and just pick at it and like we could pull up database stuff as well. Yeah. So yeah, maybe, maybe that's something we can we can try.

SPEAKER_00 18:12

I like that idea.

SPEAKER_01 18:13

Okay, cool, cool. Um, because yeah, it it helps serve the function of like for me being consistent with podcasts, it's the only channel for for advertising for Sherpa. And then for you, it's it's part of your workflow in the juvenile stages of new ideas and need to be pressure tested. Um it's very it's very brave of you to pressure test them and then put it out in a podcast.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

Um I think that's probably why people find it helpful in the sense that like you get to see the process, you know, as opposed to just like the final product. So um, yeah, like I think it's I mean, I I obviously don't sound the smartest in the podcast, and I sound much smarter in the YouTube videos that are fully edited, and I get to re-record stuff. Um, but uh yeah, I'm I'm fine with it.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

So yeah, yeah. I think that could be that could be fun. Another thing, um, one of the sessions, uh, another takeaway is um, I guess a couple things. They one company does like a whole bunch of research into podcasts as a marketing channel, and they survey a bunch of people, and they found that podcasting, one of like the unique things about podcasting is that uh it's it's very particularly good for building trust and showing authenticity. I probably just because of the long form nature of it. Um a lot of businesses are thinking about starting podcasts, and people on these panels work with B2B podcasts and they ask the questions why do you want a podcast? What are your goals with the podcast? And for a lot of businesses, if the goal is to short term get customers, it's like this is not the channel. This is more of like a long play channel to build a connection with your audience. There's a lot of community building um that happens through podcasts because of the connection listeners feel, like you're in their ear all the time. And then like they we they feel like they know you in a sense. And uh yeah, so uh auth authenticity and uh trust was really high. So I think like a view on a podcast is very different from a view on a short. It's just they're deepening their connection with you.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

Um there was this story, I forget the details of it, but Ramosy was talking about how there was some sort of stadium and it was like a creator day or something, and they invited a bunch of creators, and then they would like say all the like Instagram creators like stand up, and then like they would show people on the screen, and uh like the Instagram creators got like a decent applause, and then they had the YouTube creators stand up and they got a much larger applause, and then they had the live streamers stand up and they got like a huge applause, and this is exactly what you're referring to in the sense that like Instagram maybe gets like a lot of views, but the connection isn't there, so like people don't necessarily know you as well, and they're not gonna cheer as loud for you, and then YouTube is like the middle ground, and it's like you know, eight-minute videos, and people feel like they get to know you a bit more, but then like live stream is just like next level. Um so he was talking about how he's gonna do more live streams. Um, and then that's why I started to do a few live streams.

SPEAKER_01 21:53

Oh, yeah. Okay. So yeah, what's live streaming like?

SPEAKER_00 21:57

It was, it was, it's quite good. The only downside is they always get demonetized. So um, like I would basically in my live streams, what I was do, what I would do is if I'm watching some sort of event, I'll hop on and then I'll just uh go through the event, kind of talk through what I'm seeing, and then take notes. So it's just like you get to tag along as I'm taking notes in the database. Um, and then there was a chat, and then people would, you know, uh say what I missed or um ask questions about the database. A lot of people are using it as a way to ask me questions about the database, which was awesome. Um, and I figured it was a good way to show people how to take notes using the database. Um but like so I did one on the Polaris event, and there's like tiers of demon demonetization. So one tier is you don't make any money off of it, but you can still show it. But in that tier, like the way to think about it, I think, is YouTube is a business, and actually, this isn't necessarily true because like basically uh flow grappling gets the revenue, I don't get the revenue. Um, but like uh YouTube, when you don't put like ads in your videos, people say, I don't know if this is necessarily necessarily true, but people say that they don't promote your videos as much because you're not putting ads in them and they make money off of your ads. So they're not gonna promote videos that don't make them money. So yeah, like that's that's one thing to consider. I don't think that necessarily applies to this because I do think they still put ads in it, but it's just who gets the money is different. Like Flow would get the money, I wouldn't get the money. Um, so that's one tier. You you don't get I don't get the money, but they still let me show the video. The worst tier is they just take down the video completely and you it's no longer there. The like absolute worst tier is they take down the video and they give you a copyright strike. And then you only get a certain amount of copyright strikes before they take down your YouTube channel. So the videos that I made regarding like flow grappling content, like Polaris, um, the uh WO event, those ones got um demonetized, but I could still show the video. But the one I made for the U with the UFC when I was watching the UFC event, that one they just took down the video completely. So I didn't get a strike, but they don't like it just got taken down. So basically I I'm kind of in limbo right now of whether or not I should keep doing them. Um and yeah, I'm not really sure what what to do, but I did find it to be quite helpful um in terms of like people giving their input as I'm taking notes. And two is a people a way for people to like easily ask me questions about um the database or just like positions, people just ask me stuff. So um yeah, I don't really know how I'm gonna keep doing that if I'm gonna keep doing it, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Interesting. Um, yeah, so I was hearing that man, live streamers are like built different, you know, it's like a gosh, like you have to be constantly entertaining, like engaging like the whole time. You can't be just there's no silence and then people drop off or whatever. That's intense. Um, I thought it was really smart of you to do because you were going to be entering data anyway. Yeah. And it's like such a great way to connect with folks. Um, have you thought about doing it on a different platform like Twitch or something like that? I haven't, no. Yeah, because I I I was looking into this a little bit as I was just thinking about things and Twitch versus YouTube and stuff. And um, yeah, they're they're ones they're different for I don't know. Yeah, just maybe something to to think about. Um and then you can also say money, like people can give you money to make money. It's just pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

That's always nice. Um, but yeah, one thing uh that's like a benefit of it is like sometimes when I'm entering data, like for example, I'm entering the PGF data now, and it's like a five-hour video, you know, and you just go match after match after match, and sometimes you get like kind of bored, you like get up, walk around, eat a little bit, stretch, whatever. Um then you come back, enter match, get up, and like you just there's a lot of distractions. Whereas like when you're on a live stream, it's like you're not getting up, you know, like this is what you're doing. So uh yeah, um, it did I did find I was much more like focused. And like whatever note I was gonna take, I was like, I gotta justify this note to these people in the live stream, so I gotta make sure it's good, you know.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

Oh, dude. Yeah, so there's like an accountability thing too, like making you more effective at what you do. So it sounds like there could be a lot of wins if you can figure out that that like weird monetized monetization on YouTube.

SPEAKER_00 26:56

Basically, I was I it scared me enough to where like I was like, I don't root want to get a strike, you know? Um, so I yeah, I just didn't know. Um, because I'm I'm not I'm been very lucky in the sense that like none of most of my other videos have not run into this problem.

SPEAKER_01 27:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

And the live streams are the first ones, and I'm not too like I don't I don't know how you can tow the line. Like how how long can you do that before you start you know getting strikes or they you know stop promoting your other videos or something? I don't know. Um so yeah, it just kind of scared me a little bit. Yeah, it is scary.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

Um so yeah, maybe Twitch could be something to to check out. And then a lot of people what they do is just get the highlight clips and use that as shorts. Short forms, yeah. Another takeaway related to this, there was a panel called Will Podcasts Survive the the YouTube era? And there the answer was basically yes. They the big thing in podcasting nowadays is that TV is like investing into podcasting. So like Netflix is Netflix, yeah. Apple is gonna have Apple podcasts as well. And there's a really interesting reason why it's because um people on they want to provide more lean back content on TV screens where you can be washing the dishes or you don't have to be fully engaged, but it's so they can sell ads, right? It's like they want it on their screen so they can sell ads. Podcasts are super long, there's a lot of runtime, sell more ads, and they're cheaper to produce than like a TV show, like how much money goes into earning that 30 minutes or an hour of your time versus how much money goes into making a podcast. So I think that's gonna be a huge shift this year of like watching TV screen people providers, whatever, invest more in podcasts, which means uh the level might get higher of like set sets and stuff, like maybe stuff like this where you and I are just like at home. Maybe that was like COVID era, like and it won't like the competition might be better. Uh because they don't want someone like in an interview just like looking back while they're listening, like maybe you gotta be like, you know, a little more whatever. So yeah, it's gonna be interesting to see what happens this year.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

Interesting. Yeah, the I'm listening, I was listening to this one uh like stock advice podcast, and he was talking about um like the recent thing going on where Paramount was trying to buy HBO, or not HBO, uh what's it called? Oh, yeah. Um the thing that owns Universal Studios. Oh yes, okay. Yeah. And uh actually, is it Universal?

SPEAKER_01 29:31

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

Shoot, whatever they're trying to buy some big media company. Um and they were talking about how if Netflix were to buy it, they would have like X amount of market share in the like streaming space. But in the market share breakdown, YouTube wasn't included. They were just comparing Netflix to like Disney Plus and Apple TV and Amazon Prime and stuff like that. Um, and the guy pointed out that YouTube, a lot of more people are watching YouTube on their TVs as opposed to like phones or tablets or computers. And in reality, like YouTube is one of the biggest competitors to something like Netflix, you know? Um, so yeah, like I I think it kind of goes back to what you're talking about, like with the podcasts on TV thing. Um, a lot of people are watching YouTube videos on TV and podcasts are on YouTube as well. So it is kind of an interesting shift where yeah, like I wouldn't think of YouTube videos as something to watch on TV, but a lot of people do.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

Oh yeah. I I've definitely done it um a decent amount. Uh whatever uh Mark from Australia had, you know, hit that video. It was like our podcast on the TV in the living room. Like, what? That's so crazy. Oh, shout out to Mark, friend of the podcast. Um yeah, so it makes sense though that like if your podcast is on YouTube and they're watching on YouTube versus if it if it's available through Apple TV or Netflix or Hulu, they'd rather it just play through them and then you can play their ads. Yeah. Yep. Interesting times.

SPEAKER_00 31:08

Interesting. Maybe we need to grow our podcasts and get a deal with Netflix.

SPEAKER_01 31:13

Yeah, I know, right? Then I gotta like put some stuff on the walls again, not look like a serial killer here at home, new place. So yeah. Um go ahead. No, no, what are you gonna say?

SPEAKER_00 31:29

I was gonna ask if you wanted to talk about anything jiu-jitsu related.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

I know before we lose everyone. Yeah, maybe one thing I was curious about is like the four-point position.

SPEAKER_00 31:39

Um are there other names for it? I've heard it called quad pod and four-point, I think are the two common names for it.

SPEAKER_01 31:47

Okay, yes, that position. Um just we were playing some games where you start in the front headlock, you're trying to keep them in front headlock, and they are trying to stand up and disconnect. And man, when they quad pod, and then and I'm not really good at keeping weight on their hands and keeping them on their hands, it's just like so easy for them to get up, back out, get their hands, start breaking grips, and then I'm screwed from there. And I'm wondering, like, when do you give up and just like attack, go for like a single leg or something? And is that a regression? Like, that's kind of worse, or maybe versus like really hold on and try to like get them on their elbows and knees and like proper front head lock and start to attack or go behind.

SPEAKER_00 32:31

Um, so what do you what are you currently focused on when you're trying to break them down?

SPEAKER_01 32:36

Um I think by the time they're quading, I'm like getting pretty nervous. Ah crap, I'm about to lose all this, you know. And so yeah, my route is either just give up and try to pick up a single leg, and then I don't know, I feel like I'm kind of starting over, like now I gotta put them down, or just hold on and try to like back up, like put get weight behind their head again and like get them on their hands again, and then I'm unsuccessfully trying to get them down to their elbows and knees and and whatnot stuff.

SPEAKER_00 33:12

Yeah. So I would say like a good point of focus to prevent them from standing up, um, or like going from a quad pod to like standing, basically, um, would be to try and keep their like hands away from their feet, if that makes sense. So like the more you like pressure into them, the easier it is for them to get their hands back towards their feet. And then now they can start to stand up. So whatever like grips you use, or you're rotating or you're doing something, you're trying to keep their hands away from their feet. Um, and I think this at least for me is what I've tried to think about when I'm when I'm trying to break people down from the front headlock. Um, and then I think a good second point of like focus would be just try to maintain like some sort of connection to them. So, like you were talking about like regression versus um like progression, and like the way I've been thinking about it uh is if you try and hold on and try to break them down to the mat and it fails and they stand up and now you're disconnected, this is the worst case scenario. But if it fails and you have a single leg, you're still connected and you can still attack. If it fails and you have an underhook, you're still connected, you can still attack. If it fails and you have a deep like overhook, you're still connected, you could still attack. So like just try to stay connected. And ideally, that connection is some advantageous connection where you can keep attacking. Um, so yeah, I'll pause there. But that's kind of the two like focus points that came to my mind when you were explaining it.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

Yeah. So the worst case is the disconnect and you're fully neutral again. Yeah. At least you still have a single or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 35:12

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Like the way I've been thinking about it from Turtle recently is when they quad pod and then they start to, you know, go grab your grips and start to untie and things like this. When they stand, you're going to have a rear body lock. And what type of connection will make it easier to break them down from the rear body lock? So as I feel like I can't keep them down in a four-point position or break them down to their elbows, break them down to their hips, I'm looking for whatever sort of connection I think will give me the most advantage for when we do end up in a rear body lock. And for me, that's been a cross grip. And I've been trying to get cross grips. Um, and then I can return them to the mat from the rear body lock. And oftentimes, it's almost like you take one step backwards to go two steps forward. So it's like you can't keep them down from turtle, but you get to your advantageous grip, you let them stand up to get to the rear body lock. And now when you break them down, they're on their hip. So like you weren't able to break them down from the four-point turtle, but you were able to break them down to their hip from a rear body lock. So same thing with a single leg from the front headlock, it's like maybe you couldn't get them to their hip from the, you know, the four-point front headlock, but you were able to do it from a single leg. And um, yeah, so I think just like keeping your main task as the the focus, and then like I guess keeping the main objective in in your site and then having some sort of focus to get there, I think is like the the goal. And at least for me, it's been like get to some sort of connection, like maintain some sort of connection. And ideally, it's some sort of advantageous connection. And then for me, the specific connection that I've been looking for is a cross grip.

SPEAKER_01 36:56

Um yeah. So this begs the question, what do you like to do from there? That rear body lock with the the cross grip, how how do you like to return into the mat?

SPEAKER_00 37:07

A lot of times it's uh like you're either so basically the way I think about a cross grip is anytime. So I guess like the way I've tried to explain it to my students is like from let's say you're in closed guard and you get outside their elbows. So you've created an angle by getting outside their elbows, you've taken away their post on that side, so you can sweep them to that side, and you've also gained access to their back, so you can go behind them. So taking a cross grip is a great way to get outside their elbows. But from the case of a rear body lock, we're already, you know, behind them. So we're already outside their elbows. Um, but we have taken away their post on that side of their body. So generally it, what I think about at least is you're constantly trying to off-balance them forwards to the side or backwards. So generally, forward, I'm trying to off-balance them to the side that I'm controlling their hand because they can't post on that side. So you step like in front of their leg, you drive them down to that side. They can't post, they follow their hip. If they're resisting that motion, then you're you take them like backwards, but the other direction, if that makes sense. So like your foot goes behind their foot on the far side, and then you can offbalance them backwards. And then um, the third way is like kind of like to the side. And generally it's like I try to step in front to go forward, and if that's not working, you can go more like to the side. So it's just like a different direction um based on the way their like weight is distributed. But that's generally the way I've tried to think about a cross grip. And from the front headlock, the cross grip I think is very effective as well. I think I've just been trying to take cross grips from everywhere, if I'm being honest. So, like cross grip from the front headlock, like if they're standing from four-point and you get a cross grip, if they stand up, now you can work to get into like a Russian arm or something like that. Um, so you're already outside their elbows from standing, and now you have some sort of advantage. Um, and again, the cross grip, I think, is very good for getting access to the back. So generally, when I'm attacking from the front headlock, I'm looking for a cross grip. And this prevents them from getting into the four point because I can't put that hand on the mat. And it gives you access to a go behind on that side. So, and it makes it easier for you to break them down to that side if if you're able to. So, yeah, uh cross grips has been my like uh obsession these days.

SPEAKER_01 39:37

Is that the next video? Cross grips from everywhere?

SPEAKER_00 39:40

It's not uh the next video. I'm still thinking I'm I'm working on it a bit. Um, but I do have quite a bit of uh ideas and footage from many different positions. So uh yeah, I'm not even sure the way I would organize the video, but yeah. Uh it's something I've been looking at from a lot of different positions for sure.

SPEAKER_01 40:02

Interesting. Yeah, this makes me think about when are cross what's the uh effect of cross grips versus straight straight grips and when to use each. Um big question.

SPEAKER_00 40:18

Yeah. Yeah, I'm not entirely sure.

SPEAKER_01 40:23

Yeah, that one's a too broad of a question, probably. Um yeah. I like this uh big theme though of like staying connected. Um it reminds me of like a I think it was in Greg's school thing, um Rod, who helps to manage it, is doing some match um analysis for people. So you can submit your match footage and then he'll do an analysis um with all like Greg's framework and language and stuff. And one thing that was a recent breakthrough of mine in hand fighting was like he gave the feedback, the guy would hand fight, and then when he gets into like a disadvantaged position, he would just like break free and like reset to neutral. And he said, rather than resetting, like use their connections, turn them into your connections, um, and and just like stay in there versus constantly resetting back to zero. And yeah, that was very helpful for me because whenever I felt people grabbing me in ways that was they were starting to get uh ahead, I would just like grip them off, you know, push them away, and then we're neutral again, versus they grab me, turn that into your grip and continue from there.

SPEAKER_00 41:35

So yeah, one thing uh I forget where Greg said it, but it's something I've been thinking a lot about when I'm designing games these days. And it's interesting because I don't necessarily see Greg do this all the time, um, but it's something I've been thinking about more. And he said that it's easy, I'm putting words in his mouth a bit, but uh the basic idea is it's easy to give the defender the task of disengaging to win a game. And in his school, he wants to create a culture of people who like stay in the fire and are able to figure out solutions um to defend that goes into their own offense as opposed to like breaking all connection, going back for neutral. So, like for example, like I've seen him design games for B team where it's like, you know, the leg entanglement is like the attacker is trying to maintain, and then the defender's trying to like break all connection and disengage. But I've been trying to make the win condition for the defender more offensive for the defender as opposed to like if I run away, I win. Um, so yeah, this is something that I thought was very interesting and it reminded me exactly of what you're what you're talking about. So um, yeah, I think this is very evident in the culture that Greg creates because all of his athletes are like constantly in your face, you know, and like working forward. So um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:59

Yeah, it was cool. Uh one specific grip break that I think it was Joseph Shaman. We might maybe you show me this. It's like when they have a straight grip on you in standing to basically like lift your hand up and take a take a grip on on their grip, yeah. Yeah, dude, that's so sick. It's yeah, so nice, it's so elegant. Like I was like, wow, who who would have ever thought about that? Yeah. Um how how did you describe that?

SPEAKER_00 43:24

Uh for those uh just listening, like how would you do um I think the like the classic straight grip break is like you bring your uh like elbow forward, basically, to like break their grip. And the basic idea is you take like a like an upward-facing like V grip on their wrist, and then you basically kind of like just break their grip, and then it turns into your upward-facing like grip, and then you can go like thumb down or whatever you want to do from there. But uh yeah, this is a nice little pummel. And and PJ did it to me when uh we rolled, and yeah, it it happens so fast, you know. It's like I have a grip on you, and then all of a sudden you have a grip on me. It's like, oh, this what uh the tables have turned, you know.

SPEAKER_01 44:15

Yeah, it's such a nice, so elegant, or like people take a straight grip on you and you pull your arm down and go for an arm drag, and you're using their grip against them. It's like, what?

SPEAKER_00 44:27

Yeah, they call this indirect control. Ah, okay. Yeah, yeah. Where like you don't directly control their wrist. Um, they're controlling your wrist, but you can they're they're grabbing your wrist, I should say. So like they have direct grip on you, but you also have connection to them and you can use that to control them.

SPEAKER_01 44:52

Yeah, yeah. It's so nice. Or like a nice duck under where they are grabbing your hand that you throw up. And then that's a good example. So, so dope. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:02

Yeah, I saw a recent example at PGF where um someone's attacking from the back, and you know how you take a cross grip on their top arm and trap it? Um, the defender had a cross grip on the attacker's bottom arm. Arm. And then the attacker tried to trap the arm like with their cross grip. So they didn't have the cross grip, but they have the indirect control. So it's kind of like they have a cross grip. And then they tried to trap the arm. And then the guy let go of his cross grip to bring his hand up. And then the guy grabbed his own cross grip, pushed it down, and then trapped the arm. So it's like the indirect control forced the guy to be like, I don't need the cross grip, I just need to prevent my arm from being trapped. He runs from it, and then the guy takes his direct cross grip and then traps the arm.

SPEAKER_01 45:41

So it's just it's pretty cool. Pretty cool. Wow. The connections there. It doesn't matter who's holding the need it. Yeah. Dang. That's that is also very elegant, very elegant solution right there. Yep. Yeah. Dang, that's cool. See, that's that's like art. Yeah. Yeah. That's like creativity right there. It's so cool. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 46:05

And it's having like to use like Greg's language, it's just like having a task that you're trying to achieve, and then the variables are going to change, and then you just, you know, have your focus of removing defensive hands from the back. You can use indirect control as a tactic, as a tactic to do this.

SPEAKER_01 46:22

Very nice. Um cool. Yeah. I'm glad we got some jujitsu in there. Yeah. Cross scripts. Cross scripts. Excited to see where excited to see how this this uh turns into a video in the future. Want to give any updates on uh database?

SPEAKER_00 46:40

Um, I don't know when this podcast is gonna come out, but uh we closed the school enrollment enrollment for a little while. Um, but it should be open by the time this one's done. We're kind of wrapping up some changes, but um, yeah, the feedback so far has been really good, so I'm excited to relaunch it. Um and yeah, that's basically all I really have. How about Trippa?

SPEAKER_01 47:01

Uh what do you call what are you calling it?

SPEAKER_00 47:04

I think I'm calling it the school's tool, the outlier schools tool. Um but I was starting I was calling it initially the coaching tool, and then I thought schools tool sounded better, but then it might be a bit, I don't know, not as direct in terms of like who it's intended for. So yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't know. Um on our website it's the the like uh icon is labeled schools, so I've been calling it the schools tool.

unknown 47:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 47:40

I don't I don't know. I hit this is the first time I'm thinking about it. Um I I kept thinking of it as the coaching tool because we've been talking about it as the coaching tool for so long. Yeah, but I could see how someone could think of it differently, like private lessons or like something like that. Right. Um, so yeah, maybe something to do with gym owners or school in there somewhere. Um the gym tool? I I don't know. School's tool is a little bit of like a tongue twister. Yeah. The rhymes. Yeah. Uh but yeah. Um, one more jujitsu thing. So we're gonna have Lucas Knart on the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 48:20

Well, we haven't officially done that, but yes, hopefully.

SPEAKER_01 48:24

Okay, hopefully. Lucas, if you're listening, hopefully we've already talked to you about this. But uh shout out to Jonathan who reached out to him and was like, you need to go on their podcast. Um, but I think you had an idea for it. Did you want to talk about it on error or should we save that for after?

SPEAKER_00 48:41

Uh I'll I'll tell you about it and then maybe we can decide whether we cut it or not. Okay. Um but uh Lucas reached out to me after I made that video on his guard retention. And um he basically said that he's been studying a lot of Mikey's stuff, and he's trying to like work on his finishes because he feels like he can get entries into positions, but he can't finish it as well. Um, so I started to kind of, you know, save some footage and kind of think about that a bit more. So I thought that might be a good topic to use for the podcast. Um, and then I could make like a proper YouTube video about it and like use clips from the podcast of us talking about it. Um, but yeah, that was kind of the uh the idea is maybe brainstorm some ideas with Lucas about how he can um improve his finishes as opposed because his entries are unbelievable, but um he struggles to you know finish from the positions against good people. So yeah. That's kind of what I was thinking. What do you think? That sounds awesome.

SPEAKER_01 49:51

And I I'm also like, wow, he's so generous to I will see if he's he's up for it, but like to put it all out there, you know what I mean? Like this is my game. Although Marcelo says if they're studying my game, they're entering my game, right? And I'll be better at it than they will. So maybe maybe there's that mindset. Who knows?

SPEAKER_00 50:07

Yeah, one one thing I I really enjoy because a lot of times it's like me watching content, and then I try and figure out like what athletes are focused on during a given sequence, and it's me like speculating a lot. So I obviously haven't like done this yet, but um, it's it's nice to be able to talk to people, like at least like when we were talking with the PJ and stuff, it's nice to be able to just hear them talk about like what they were focused on during a given sequence. So um yeah, it removes the speculation on my part. And sometimes I make up stuff, and then the athlete reaches out to me and it's like, dude, I I wasn't thinking about that at all, but like that's a lot smarter than what I was, you know, thinking about, you know, I just scrap kind of thing. Yeah. Uh so yeah, like a a lot of times it is me making up stuff, but then sometimes it's right. But um, it's nice to be able to, you know, get a peek behind the curtain and see what they're actually thinking about with during these matches.

SPEAKER_01 51:06

Yeah, yeah. Let's get Lucas in a group chat and then we can brainstorm with him a little bit. Um, especially the piece of like what does he want to put out versus not um on a podcast. But uh that's super dope. I'm so excited to to be able to chat with him. Even if it's you guys chatting and nerding out and me listening, like that that's gonna be cool to be be in.

SPEAKER_00 51:26

Sounds good. You always have good questions, I feel like, to ask. So even if it is like super technical, I feel like you'll be just fine, you know.

SPEAKER_01 51:36

I think on the technical side, I think I'm too my understanding is not like when you guys will get into like some really high-level stuff, I'll probably drop back if it's other random shit. Like, oh, how'd it feel when you tapped out Victor Hugo? You know, like what I'll be I'll ask both questions. So gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 51:56

Cool. Um, yeah, we'll we'll start a group chat with him and uh so yeah, yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure he'll come on. He's super nice. And we've been in touch a bit, he's been on the database forever. Um so yeah. Uh I'm sure it'll I'm sure it'll work out fine. I'm sure it'll be a very productive conversation too. So I'm excited for it.

SPEAKER_01 52:12

Awesome. Yeah, a lot to look forward to. Sounds good. Cool. Yeah, thanks, Josh. See ya.