#83 Jim Gibbons: Inside "The Dual" — Unveiling Wrestling's Timeless Bonds and the 1986 Iowa State-Hawkeyes Showdown

Wrestling fans, brace yourselves for a trip down memory lane, guided by none other than Jim Gibbons. Together, we unravel the tapestry of the 1986 wrestling dual between Iowa State and the Hawkeyes, an event so monumental it birthed "The Dual," a six-part series steeped in the sport's rich history. Gibbons, with his insider's eye, takes us behind the scenes of creating this docuseries during the unexpected quiet of the COVID-19 pandemic. This episode isn't just a nod to wrestling's past; it's a homage to the sport's future, igniting passion in hearts old and new.

As we wade through the waters of wrestling lore, I share how the sport transcends mere physical competition, touching lives and forging unbreakable bonds. We delve into the emotional rollercoaster of near title grabs and the relentless pursuit of excellence, all while cultivating a team as diverse as the challenges they'll face on the mat. From both teams lasting legacy on the culture of wrestling to the exploration of Dan Gable's guarded coaching tactics, it's clear: wrestling is as much about the relationships off the mat as it is about the victories on it.

Finally, we cast a light on the storytelling power of wrestling, discussing how "The Dual" could inspire everyone from young athletes to single mothers seeking the sport's discipline and community. This conversation isn't confined to wrestling techniques; it's an exploration of human spirit, resilience, and the legacy left by teams who triumph against all odds. So, whether you're a wrestling aficionado, an intrigued newbie, or somewhere in between, this episode promises to pin you down with its compelling narratives and the unmistakable echoes of camaraderie. Join us, and feel the pulse of a sport that's more than just a game—it's a way of life.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 1:13

Nobody ever Labmed pled when the Ways 麻 FREE hay Day Dope.

Speaker 2: 2:58

We're live. We are live with our guest, jim Gibbons. Jim, I appreciate you taking the time out to do this. You're busy. We're here all over the country doing announcing things like that, but at the same time you're busy promoting the dual. What we brought you to talk about 1986, the series that kind of happened, that kind of launched something else at the end of that year. But we brought you to talk about that Because I've been a long time just Iowa wrestling fan in general, whether it's Iowa state or the Hawkeyes. When I saw this come out I was a little confused at first, just kind of like the dual, what does this all mean? What are they talking about? The dual? Seeing what you put out and looking at just some of the clips that were there, I was instantly hooked. Jim, I appreciate you taking the time out to join us. Let's talk about the 1986 dual Dacu series, six parts. It sounds like this started from, is it Jim Myers?

Speaker 3: 4:12

Well, thank you for allowing me to come on your podcast. I dig your music there. That was pretty good. I had a Southern vibe there. No, my good friend John Myers and I he's been one of my guys, the guy probably. You always got to have somebody go. How did we do here? How did I do here? What does this sound you knock things off of?

Speaker 3: 4:44

During my broadcast career, which has really been about 25 years or so, we actually I think the first time I was actually on TV is actually in the Perry High School gym in Iowa. Here with my friend, sean Kenny, we were doing a broadcast there in the what's now the junior high gym for the public access. Challenges of getting reps and just doing, just asked to help out. That led to got asked to help out with public television and the rest is history. No, john was always been my guy and John is a real successful career in visual effects. He's worked on the set of things like always sunny in Philadelphia, some big time things. I have Super Bowl commercials and he's got a network of friends that really kind of helped us through all this. He was the creative, directed and produced this and we both kind of had a vision of how it would go. We had a lot of communication with each other and it's about a three and a half year project. We got it started in 2020 when I was sitting on my roof built in a house.

Speaker 3: 6:00

I remember I'm on my garage, I hadn't had my roof shingled yet and I was up there standing up there and he calls on a nice day after they canceled the wrestling tournament. It was like everybody was bumming on the sport. What do we do next? You're taking calls from guys and let's redo the tournament. Let's do this, let's have a tournament outside the tournament. What can we do? We call it post wrestling shock syndrome, that period of time that you have after the NCAA before there's anything else, you can make sure late March and early April up until Easter miserable. He came up with that they were closing Hollywood down. Basically, I mean Hollywood, but they're closing the film industry down.

Speaker 3: 6:48

When Tom Hanks got COVID he's got and needs about four hours worth of sleep He'd just been down a rabbit hole and he had watched on the Iowa State Archives site, the Iowa State Dys 86 Duel. He calls me up the next day and he goes, and I went on the roof of my house and he goes. What do you remember about that duel? For me personally, it was kind of a bad memory, because we won the meet. We just did it A lot of it. Most of it was my fault. I just didn't stick with my instincts on training this team. We kind of let the foot off the gas and didn't have the performance that we wanted. Meanwhile, iowa goes totally the other way. Then he goes. Well, this is one of the most traumatic meets I've ever seen.

Speaker 3: 7:46

I go, I start thinking about it and then I said, well, I got out the phone and I started thinking about it and I started going through the weight classes. I said, oh heck, that guy was an NCAA runner up. That guy was a national champion. This guy ended up being a national champion Before you know it. I got 12 guys that counted up that won 16 national titles. How many guys made the finals? Well, there's 29 guys that made the final 29 times. They made the finals. These 20 guys there's some characters there. We talked again and he kind of pestered on me for a while. I said, well, if we do it, we got to talk to everybody. He called my bluff and that's where we are today.

Speaker 2: 8:30

So you're talking COVID times. As far as when you guys got this discussion started, he was watching and you and I touched on this the last time that we talked on the phone he was watching an old duel. That was my access to be able to watch Iowa Wrestling as well. Even back in a lot of times we didn't get it up here. We had guys that were video recording stuff on VHS and bringing it back just to watch awesome duels. You guys have a lot of and I would say Iowa Public Television itself brought the game along as far as wrestling and viewing wrestling goes. How was that journey trying to get that information, because I know sometimes getting video or just archival stuff that obviously they own it to get that, what type?

Speaker 3: 9:19

of Well, no, the people of the state of Iowa own it.

Speaker 3: 9:24

That's what you have to. They've been claiming rights on this for a while, but Public Television is owned by the state. They have an appropriation, they're part of the retirement plan, they're defended by the Attorney General's office. So we went through this whole exercise where we had a production agreement and it got. We had put the product together, six episodes in rough cut form, and the majority of the you know so went to nine states.

Speaker 3: 9:55

During COVID started our interview process in the Dan Gable Museum after they had had the Hall of Fame entries. We had Royson Bill in the Hall of Fame. Yeah, later we had interviewed him there and that's where we started. We started getting the interviews with all the guys in Iowa and Illinois area that were still there and then we went basically throughout that fall to eight to nine different states. We went to Washington, california, illinois, ohio. We went to Indiana, okay, went out to Connecticut to see Ivan Maisel who wrote the Sports Illustrated article for us. A lot of interviews, of course, with Arizona. We went to Colorado to see a couple guys.

Speaker 3: 10:46

This is in a bunch of folding chairs in front of wall mats. We went to them and got a feel for how they're living their life at that point in time. And the cool thing about this is a lot. You know, gable and I sit down through the whole thing and there's a lot of things that are really unique to the broadcast that you've never seen anywhere else and that's just kind of the creativity of John with his special effects that you know. Just picture yourself, as you did. You've watched it how many times, brad? Four times.

Speaker 2: 11:19

Four times now, it's amazing, four times.

Speaker 3: 11:22

Yeah, four times. But you know, if you would have watched the Last Dance with Michael Jordan, right? You probably watched that as well If you liked that man, all that stuff on ESPN 10-part docuseries they did on that Well, wouldn't have been nice if you saw Michael Jordan sit down as he's looking at it on the laptop yes, and he's got cocktails in his hand right and he's looking at the laptop, looking at the laptop. Can we actually show you what he's looking at on the back of the laptop? We actually we coined that as a Skoney Visions.

Speaker 3: 12:00

And so why is that? Because I sent a rough cut out to Adam Derangowski, my friend, and he watched it with his friend Ron Franskone, right? So he liked it, pointed it out, so we called it Skoney Visions. You've never seen that anywhere else, right, yeah, but it takes a special effects guide to be able to go ahead and do that. So John's background is that he wrestled at Nebraska and grew up in Eogrove, iowa, one of the cradles of wrestling in the state, and went over and actually wrestled during this time period he wrestled in his nationals in 86 and 87, and so he knew these guys as well and, like I said, my best friend.

Speaker 3: 12:48

So I was like we've traveled a lot together watching about tournaments and talking to the sport and he's been helping out quite a bit with my broadcast career.

Speaker 2: 13:00

Yeah, which is awesome as well. I love watching the duels when you're announcing. It's great. It's a blast to listen to.

Speaker 3: 13:08

Yeah we like the word. We love Shane. Yeah, Shane is in this. He is he is so it's.

Speaker 2: 13:15

his appearance is uncanny.

Speaker 3: 13:17

Yeah, well, where we put him is right, where he perfectly needs to be. We were thinking about how do we kind of bridge the gap between what was that era and all that transpired, the thoughts 35 years later and all that stuff. Then we were able to make a comparison. He's our look into.

Speaker 2: 13:41

Yeah, that's exactly what he did Good question, greg Randall.

Speaker 2: 13:49

That was great. That was great. Just the way he cameoed into that whole scene was great. That was good. So when you're going through and obviously you're contacting these guys, you're getting yeses and guys that are willing to talk about it. There are obviously guys who didn't fare very well that day. There are guys that didn't think they were going to a wound up, faring well extremely that day. You were a young coach, it was your first year and you guys were still 19 and one. It's not like you guys were, just like you were struggling. So the confidence level going into a duel like that has got to be pretty, I would say, welcoming. You know, like hey, we can win this. Like there's, there's no reason why we can't.

Speaker 3: 14:34

So well as you're talking, yeah certainly the way we thought about that.

Speaker 3: 14:39

And my background, as far as the, you know, I won a national title, 81 and and in 82, I you know I did, I was number one seed, didn't got beat in the semifinals and and it was kind of funny how things like that tend to end up helping me in my coaching career because you know I could get off the mat and coaching a lot of position, and then in helping guys and because I saw that is is one of the big areas where it's a great equalizer. You know people, you know they just want to go, let me up and go on to feed again. Ok, you know, hey, get get your ass off the mat. Yeah, you have the, the goods to do that.

Speaker 3: 15:18

All right, yeah, and some guy who doesn't want to let you do it. That that, that that can. It's one of the best ways to equalize the you know, the talent level and everything else is for what is the hidden thing about what happens on the mat? And the reason why I bring that up is that you know I was recruiting coordinator as a coach, ok, right. So I recruit a lot of these guys and you know, or you know to my family and like to think they're there because I was there. But the thing about it is, is that that, that, that that relationship, I think helped me get the job at a young age, right, and so you know. So I knew it wasn't like somebody coming in from the outside or knew you know, whatever, that these were existing relationships where I was helping train guys and you know it, it we were working our way through it.

Speaker 3: 16:17

We had staff that never worked together before when we brought in Ed Bannick and you know, and I think we do a good job of really kind of of you know, pointing to some of the things where he was really beneficial as far as helping our team with that in that era and, and I think you know it it I look back at it and I go you know we got nine guys that got beat in that meet. Talk to us, yeah, especially in this, this, this isn't what you know.

Speaker 2: 16:49

You know and I got. One of them was Matt.

Speaker 3: 16:52

Eglund. I don't think this ends up being what it is without Matt Eglund, you know, sitting down and talking to us, yeah, and after 35 years later, he was these the runner up in that country the year before. He's one of the big reasons why I won their eighth national title in a row. Right, and you know they have to struggle and have to talk, hard time making, you know, making it the way and all that stuff, yeah, everybody gets that, ok, it has been part of that era.

Speaker 3: 17:20

that can, that can take your mind in places, but the fact that he sat down with us, I really think it. You know he's basically Barry Davis who didn't get found. You know what I mean, right, right, you know, when you take a look at how his career ended in, yeah, but he was, he was, you know, he was tough and firing away right up until the end or he got caught and yeah.

Speaker 3: 17:42

But his comments about it really kind of, and the fact that he was chopping it up the rest of the six episodes. But nine guys basically did the same thing you know, got up there and and talk with us and for most part there were one call closes. You know, and I think a little bit to do with my, I think I get a trusted relationship in the, in the community that you know.

Speaker 3: 18:03

You know we wanted to make this thing fun and cool Because we really thought that I and I I particularly thought you know that that guy's wrestling at the time in that era and I hope it's that way this way for the guys that are wrestling today, 35 years later was so fun, it was so it was. So it was tough, yes, and the workouts were, you know, punishing and grueling and the weight cutting and the grind and all that stuff. But gosh, you know the trips on the bus, the, the belly laughs. Is that before practice, the cutting up, it just was just a different.

Speaker 3: 18:40

It is a you know, to be part of one of these programs like this that you know we didn't, you know you didn't know at the time, we're going to be national champions next year, but it was certainly our goal and we thought, we thought we were good enough to go over to Iowa City, that that that year, that year, yeah, and win and beat our rival, and but it's like it didn't materialize that way, but it kind of set the, you know, for us anyway, and even though that the, the, the duel, is not about the following year, right, right In references quite a bit, and so you got to roll your roll with that, but it laid a foundation of expectations, that that for us, that you know. So the next year we're just that much more mentally tough, you know, and we go ahead. And so I, you know you, take part, talk to guys. Some of the guys didn't talk to us. Well, they all have their reasons. It's not, it's not for, you know, we wanted to make them look as good as possible, even if it, because it does. These, these were not casual relationships, they were not casual efforts to wrestle at this level.

Speaker 3: 19:52

You know, in, in, in these programs there's tension. There's tension a lot of times to make the team. There's tension once you, once you get there, you know, get somebody behind you that, that, that, that, that that that type of pressure is is is evident everywhere. You saw that with the Russell off situation between Penrith, fred, penrith and, you know, oh gosh, paul Glenn, glenn was right, third in the country or whatever, and they went with Penrith that year and ends up winning the national title. So it's like you got, you got that that's the, that's the. But that's what happens in great programs, that's what, that's what you have. Yeah, and I think that a little bit that's alluded to. But you know, after, after 35, it was really proud of all the guys, all the guys that got on camera and how complimentary that they were to their opponents and you could tell that they thought about each other a lot.

Speaker 2: 20:54

Yeah yeah, for sure, you know, I think Royce and Billy, yeah, yeah, I think those guys exemplified that in the. I mean, Royce said he hadn't even watched the match, you know, so he was Well yeah.

Speaker 3: 21:07

I don't think Joe watched the match either. You know Joe, Joe Gibbons watching his match with Kevin Dressert, yeah, yeah, but you got the idea of what you know. The rival. We was like you and I think we have coach Gable like nobody's ever seen him before.

Speaker 2: 21:27

I want to. I want to talk about that because, having met Dan Gable a couple of times, I don't know him. You know, I'm not not a Dan Gable know it all by any means, but knowing the, I wouldn't say secrecy, but how much he keeps in his pocket. So people don't know things. We have a current coach, jeff Mochek, in Wisconsin. That is kind of the same way. He keeps things close to the vest and doesn't want to expose too much. Watching Dan through the, the episodes and through the whole series, he and he talks like this a lot. He can tell that he's thinking about what he's talking about as he's putting it out. But how was that to? How did how did you guys reach out? Was it just a simple phone call with him to saying, hey, we're doing this, we want to talk to you, would you join us? Was it? Was he just as excited about doing it? Was he apprehensive at first?

Speaker 3: 22:16

Well, I don't think I coach was. We have a good relationship. I mean, it's not like because we both love wrestling yeah.

Speaker 1: 22:27

And if you love wrestling I mean you're, you're you're one of his guys.

Speaker 3: 22:31

Right, so it's like. So I think that that was it hard to get him to do this. I'd say, in the totality no, All right, we know how to know how to get Dan to help participate in. Hey man, we're doing this documentary on this and yeah what year was that you know, and, yeah, and, and, but I think he, you know, after a while it became you know he. Then all of a sudden it's out there and he remembers everything he said and all yeah, but it's just, I think just as I was the first time I sat down to watch this and saw myself on camera watch the first episode.

Speaker 3: 23:14

I was shaken like a leaf Right, I just do this that I had to go. I watched it alone. John sent me the links and all that stuff and it's it's like you know, you had to put so much into this and you were there for 90 percent, 99 percent of the interviews. So you're sitting there. Okay, what are we going? What, what, what did John come up with and I go? You know, we kind of obviously had a format to deal with there, with starting off with, with, with Coach Gable and his relationship with Iowa State and his history there, art, history and, and you know, but mainly about, about him and how, and then then what, we, being young coach, what was happening back then? Yeah, up to up to low Utah and all that stuff that they that were, these stories are told, yeah, and we ended up. You know that you just there's just a level of excitement about it and I think that you know there was a misconception about this. I think because after the after, the last hand is raised in this thing right.

Speaker 3: 24:27

There's 11 different story arcs that develop Correct, yeah, and so that's correct. It's just a and that. So it's not what you think it is and but, but but it is. You know it's. It's about wrestling.

Speaker 2: 24:43

It's about wrestling and the thoughts of these men 35 years later, and and I think it's an encompassing story though as well, because you're talking when you're tall, also talking about how these guys like the relationship you have with the guys, and but these, these guys grew up together, like we're talking about two Iowa teams that were stacked with Iowa guys.

Speaker 3: 25:04

Yeah, there are 11 guys from the state of Iowa, but that goes beyond that. I mean we remember wrestling in California and Montana and go on there and wrestling with the Kisler family. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 25:14

Russell Jackson in the finals of some tournament out in Montana and I remember, you know we knew the Kisler family growing up. We knew, you know, dwayne Goldman I'd been, you know, soft one year. We're in his wrestling room and he's like a 30 pounder and I roll around with him. He's just getting looking to wrap, you know this like not moving the right way or whatever, and you know, and then he sits down and he watches. You know, guys, that that that you know he tells the story about it. But you know, just, it's never. It's just kind of funny how all the stories are intertwined. You know, and I think you know, just even from the out of state guys and and you know guys like you know the Heffernan's and their connections and John being at St Ed's now and, yeah, a program, I mean it's a lot of still relevant people and which is pretty cool. I think that that's that part of us really, really cool.

Speaker 2: 26:18

Extremely, extremely in the environment that you were able to give these guys. Like you said, you you went to them, you weren't just sitting in a gym with some folding chairs, so you made it as comfortable as possible, Unless we showed up at their doorstep in a lot of these situations.

Speaker 3: 26:33

Okay, you know, you know it would, just you know for some, it would be you know it's very easy to get Perry Summit to talk about. You know the best day you ever had on campus and I said in his hometown, right right on his porch, right, okay, yeah, Not so much easy with the other ones, but you know, some of these interviews were, were, you know, after we got done doing Matt Eglin's interview, which we just sat there and went, just went, you know, after his over with we.

Speaker 3: 27:05

You know, they, they, two hours and three hours of shooting these interviews. We, we, we made a little joke about it. We didn't have, we weren't shooting shape.

Speaker 3: 27:15

You know, you're just like you just felt drained, your, your, your, uh, and we weren't the one on cameras, but the listening to these stories of these guys that we're talking about and that and and, uh, uh. And then we get done with that one and we go over to do Greg Randall, uh on the other side of the river at Iowa city for more union and this, I mean this is how this whole thing worked out.

Speaker 3: 27:39

Is that this? This is during COVID, so it's closed? Yeah, so the guy that runs the the union comes out and we go, okay, we're busted here, we probably have to go ahead and break down and whatever. And John, if you, if you see him, he's got the big long beard, he's got the long hair and stuff.

Speaker 3: 27:55

Yeah, the guy that comes out to kind of talk to us out there and ask us what we're doing as we're shooting with Greg Randall and we're like three-fourths of the way done with this, is one of his college teammates. All right, so we, we just had things like that. Would that would happen just when it got tough and just like ready God, this is going to give you then all of a sudden something like that would happen.

Speaker 3: 28:17

We just get it was almost a. You know it's the divine guide, divine guidance or whatever, but just something unique with you know, this flip and happen and make it work. And it just got a little bit easier for us but, but yeah, but just that day of shooting. Then we go over there and do with the, the Greg.

Speaker 3: 28:36

Randall interview and you know Greg's kind of an introverted guy and I'll have to. But then when y'all of a sudden you saw my camera, I go, holy cow I go. Was that as good as I thought it was? Yeah, greg Randall in my mind's, the OW.

Speaker 3: 28:51

I mean people may not know who Greg Randall is, but but you know different way back then he's two time all American and you know, had some big wins in his career against one, one against John Smith and the dual and and and dual against Oklahoma State and two time runner up and, like I said, and you know a guy that there was a four time state champion, a legend in the state of Iowa.

Speaker 3: 29:11

And you know, and he was just, he was so spot on on and that, and that's the great thing about this, but let's talk, talk about Gable is that this is is in the words of the nine guys that that nine, nine guys that wrestled for him on one of his best teams.

Speaker 2: 29:28

It's not Gable talking about Gable right Right. Even though there's a little bit of that.

Speaker 3: 29:33

You know you get a little. He's not doing very much of that. It's those guys that were on those teams and you know. You know, when I sat down with coach Gable afterwards and I said, you know, when Dwayne Goldman says, you know he had a great sense of humor, he was everything needed to be when he needed to be it, you know you had to dig in and perk something. He was. You know he said that.

Speaker 2: 30:00

You know the coach becomes about you man, you can't help it, and that's that was something I noticed about Dan too.

Speaker 3: 30:11

The Iowa fans, you know that you run into it.

Speaker 3: 30:14

They're visibly uncomfortable. After the first episode that we've screened this, we screened this with, you know, visibly uncomfortable and I I I've warned him in a couple of the screenings that we've done and that's one of the sidebar here. For a second, that's one of the beautiful things that would happen. It brought so many people together through our screenings and to go out and see these guys on both teams, you know, obviously, you know several of them were from the state of Iowa. We knew each other. You know either good friends today or respect their, you know, watched their coaching careers and you know that that type of thing and but you know the, you know we can it's brought a lot of people together and that's really, you know, in a lot of ways a major company. We had 1200 people at our screenings. You know the last one, we had 450 people at the stadium at Iowa State. We had we had hacktows to 200 people at Bruce Kinseth Hilton Garden in Iowa City. You know he sponsored our event and all that stuff. I mean a lot of people just really came together and we were talking about Iowa fans because they know we don't, they don't win the meat and they think it's a. They may think it's some sort of propaganda or whatever piece, or it's not that at all. It's about, really about.

Speaker 3: 31:40

I think anybody who's ever been part of a rivalry will get this yeah, yep, and, and. And you still have days today that you know, years later, that you think about your, your rivals. You know who, you consider it, you know, go out there. It might be a thick conflict, it's going to win a match, but both guys are going to bring it and it's going to be a lot of fun and think it can happen on a football field, basketball court. You know a race, you know anything like that. But I think, if you have that type of mentality about it and I think of again it but these are people too and they, they, they, you know they, they found ways to kind of get around or get away or get, you know they've gone on to live their life.

Speaker 3: 32:34

They've had, you know, successes, you know, you know, and some of them have, you know it did that that very recent but but depending you know they are all considered, you know, to wrestle on either one of these teams that could get to be considered success in the sport.

Speaker 2: 32:50

Big time. And you know, when you bring up that, you know you, the guys have moved on. I mean, obviously they grow up. They, you know, kind of, they graduated college and there was one that was out on a on a trap shoot range with his daughter, yeah, so you get a, you get, yes, you get a glimpse into the, the, the thing that they are now.

Speaker 2: 33:10

You know it's, it's beyond what? Obviously the just the wrestling mat. They've grown and they have a unique perspective now of that rivalry and just that day, you know that, that dual, to be able to, you know, sit back introspectively and kind of think about things where you know, like Royce Alger not even watching the match ever, you know so on a video and finally seeing it and being able to react to it and seeing that genuine reaction to it is is entertaining. And then watching Kevin Dresser at the end of that, that episode where he just where you guys end it with him laughing about him losing that penalty, that penalty point, that's one of the best endings to an episode I think I've ever seen.

Speaker 3: 33:51

Yeah, we pick it right back up on the third episode with that and the the team, the team point, and all that stuff, but yeah, yeah it's, it's a you know, kevin and Joe have a really good relationship today, you know, and so that that's what made that work. Is that, you know? And and the same with Royce and Bill. I mean Bill, take this, he probably had one of the best months. So he did have the best month of wrestling I ever coached. He beat Johnny Johnson 13 to three and he pinned him All right and two different matches and Johnny Johnson was legit. You know him from up was a monster.

Speaker 3: 34:29

And he beat Rob Cole eight zero right and beat Roy Solger 10 to two Right. Yeah, so, billy, you know he had a and you know and Royce doesn't take very many. You know that's the worst beating he probably ever took in college.

Speaker 2: 34:45

All right, it was one of the last losses he ever took. I think yeah, pretty close yeah.

Speaker 3: 34:50

Yeah, cause he went on to lose a couple of times at the nationals that year and that was undefeated the next couple of years, and you know, wins the national title at a weight above and a weight above that since 2007. But to get Royce's reaction with, you know, I just knew it would be great, because he asked me and there he goes.

Speaker 3: 35:16

You know, jim Gibbons asked me whether I was eight and one or seven and one against the Iowa guys in the dual. He goes well, which one are you gonna do? We're gonna do the one. You got beaten right, he goes. Okay, that's all. That's all. He's priceless in this thing. And the world needs a hell of a lot more of Bill and Royce. That's pretty good.

Speaker 2: 35:38

Yeah, yeah, well, and the other thing too, that was, it was a genuine reaction between him and Bill, because Bill was like, oh, look at that, I took it out, right there he goes. Okay, I'll give you today's your day, kind of thing.

Speaker 3: 35:50

So that was yeah, but the thing about that is is that there was, if you didn't notice it, there's some oh, what happened after that? Where did you go? There's a little bit of you know it got well, that really they're both being. You know, bill was not. He was so humble in that situation, very, and you know, and we all have this aircraft carrier of pride, right, yeah.

Speaker 3: 36:31

It takes a long time to turn it. You know it does, it does and that's part of that scene. All right, the 30 minutes of those two together, where the aircraft carrier of pride and he's not alone, but okay. Right All right, it just turns around and it makes a turn and you know it makes the Little tip. That's right. It's like you know, but up until that point it's sheer comedy, all right. Yes.

Speaker 2: 37:01

Yes, it is, and I think everybody explained that as well. Talking about Royce, because I've met Royce a couple of times going down to some of the duels and talking- to him.

Speaker 3: 37:09

I talked to him today. I talked to him today.

Speaker 2: 37:12

He's just a character, I mean the guy I think he could make fun of or have fun with any situation he is in. So I wasn't surprised by how he reacted, but I think it was just. It was nice to see that gen, because it's athlete to athlete.

Speaker 3: 37:26

you know Well, athlete to athlete and those two you know you had to be pretty good to go ahead and beat Royce at any age. You know Correct Last thing, you had to be in it. So it's like our guy kept wrestling and that was the big part of it and that's one of the things that we were trying to get off of. When Billy says and he goes, I didn't want to ever see that. Look that I got from my head coach, jim right when I came off the mat the first time.

Speaker 2: 38:01

Yeah, you don't want to see that look.

Speaker 1: 38:05

Yeah but anyway, there were just moments like that all the way through. This I mean with you know, and my brother and Greg Randall's match.

Speaker 3: 38:13

It was the same you know, the same type of vibe and you know, every year in Heffernan was, you know, those guys were so good in both ways and respectful to each other, and you know, and no, it was all good. I mean, we, you know, I think we're really thankful we got the guys that we did get. And you know, think about this for a second you got Dwayne Goldman, who dominated Eric Volcker in that match, you know, and he did everything he could. You know, he just can't go through somebody that strong, but he tried, tried. Yeah Well, the next year he's the national champion right. Two years later after that, he's the national champion.

Speaker 3: 38:52

Again, that's what you. You got to go through those things. All right, you got to have those moments in front of the people. It's got to mean something. All right, it's got, you know, in. You know statewide television audience and you know, not necessarily packed to house that date, but pretty close. You know they got the attendance figure wrong. There's no way. There's 9,000 people in there. There's a lot of people, yeah, there's. There's a lot of people there.

Speaker 2: 39:17

A lot of people in there.

Speaker 3: 39:18

If Brad Penrith is up doing sprints there and he can't get across, all right, you know there's a lot of people up there.

Speaker 2: 39:23

There's an eye witness.

Speaker 3: 39:24

Okay, that's right, right, so, no, it's, it's, it's, it's just, it was. So. You know, we, we have a, we kind of have a blueprint now to do this If we, if we were in a position to do it again. But it takes a lot of resources, money and time and you know we had some people that were really special to us in that process, and you know Steven P Arkel, who did the colorization on this, this one, 22 Emmys, sparkle, sparkle. Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 3: 40:02

Yeah, and yes, the end sound right, they do. You know you'll see them their work on Super Bowl commercials, that you look up the Andy Warhol exhibit for Coca-Cola and that that that sound track there is laid down by by them, and they're, they're, I mean, they're huge. And these are all contacts of John's, and you know my job is, I guess the executive producers just get everybody there, which you know, be honest with you, not that that's not an easy thing. And then, when it became apparent that we were going to have a right squabble, that you know the work that we did to to free up this content, yeah, and get everybody on the same page, recognizing that this is a good thing for the state of Iowa and the long form of this needs to be shown out there to people. And you know, okay, you can go ahead and cut it down to two hours public television and show it on your air, but we need to be able to let guys like Brad Crooks watch all six hours of it, because he's going to wash it four times.

Speaker 2: 41:01

Four times.

Speaker 1: 41:03

Four times and it's going to go more, that's for sure I'm going to.

Speaker 2: 41:07

I'm going to have it memorized pretty soon. I'll tell you that much Cause I so I was a. I grew up knowing the Brad Penrith name. I grew up knowing Royce Alger, you know things like that. I was seven or eight at the time, so this wasn't obviously a duel that I was able to just go and see at that time.

Speaker 3: 41:26

So that that's the age I was when I was watching Dan Gable Russell at the at the at the armory. So yeah, and I walked. We told you we walked into the armory and that got great smell of popcorn and cigarettes, cigarettes.

Speaker 2: 41:42

And now, just cause, like I think I told my son about that he goes cigarettes I was like you wouldn't believe where you could smoke. Back then it was a different time All together. You could smoke in the doctor's office, I think at that time. So, when you're as you're kind of, as you're going through and and putting things together, what are your, what are your emotions? As you're kind of cause, I mean you're you're interviewing guys or you're hearing some of their stories and you're living, you know a little not living through it, but you're kind of rehashing this stuff and like you said, I mean you were like I said you were 26, but you guys are 19 and one, so you guys were no slouches. You had the confidence of of beast killers and you killed the beast that day. What were your emotions going through this? How did you feel going through and getting the story out? I had just totally had to wear another hat.

Speaker 3: 42:29

All right Of? Okay, okay, we had, we had to get everybody there. All right To get to get you know, hey, we're going to be here. I'd like to talk to you here. Do you have a couple hours or three hours or whatever that we can do? And then some of those are one call closes. Another of those that we had to make arrangements and travel and find people there Were there for the most part. That that was. That was, you know, called Ivan Mayzel. I said, Ivan, you may not remember me. All right, jim Gibbons from Iowa, do I remember? Of course I remember you. It was like it was.

Speaker 3: 43:02

I remember how cold it was that day and all that stuff and made a huge impression. It was a big deal for him as a sports illustrated back checker to get that type of article and you know back in the day would be. It was a huge coup for him and so it helped him out in a very successful career.

Speaker 3: 43:23

So you know a lot of these were, you know, reconnecting calls and you know we had just a lot of people help us. Mike Doty was really helpful in helping out with the wrestling museum and helping us get available and facilitating everything and helping them with. We had a little lobbying effort with the state legislature he helped us with. So you know, the other guy who was really our executive producer we had two guys that helped us out when we were kind of, you know, in a bad way. We've done all this work, put this rough cut together and it didn't look like it was going to be an easy thing, easy process of your. So we had Chris McGowan who was the head of the soon land chamber of commerce. He put us in touch with Dustin Miller who probably gave us at least 500 hours of legal work to help us through the rights process. Wow, wow, yeah, 500 hours. He's a nine master attorney and I think that's the number. It might be higher than that, but that's what we did.

Speaker 3: 44:37

We had no, we weren't doing this for. We were doing this to tell the story. We figured, well, the story's good, everything else could take care of itself, and if this is quality. So our mantra was basically fun and cool and I really believe that. I like to think that the guys that Russell formed we worked hard and all that stuff. We had fun in each other's company and the trips and all that stuff that we took and I know that that was the same way for them too, because it was fun and cool and back then at that era a different era than they have right now, but nonetheless it had its fun moments and all that. And you get the perspective of a 55, 56 year old man who's in this duel now. What's their perspective of it? As a guy who's seen more of life and lived a little bit more life, maybe as kids of their own and marriage or two. And at the end of the day, if this gets 100 more people to decide to officiate officials in this, it gets 100 more.

Speaker 3: 45:55

That's another one, yeah sticking around and stay with the sport for a while, it gets 100 more guys to stay out for the sport and now men or women to stick with the sport. If it does some of those things and consider coaching and consider the lifelong impact that you can have with the sport, if it gets 100 more single mothers to keep their kids.

Speaker 3: 46:20

Oh yeah, that's why I want my son to do this. That's why I want my daughter to do this. I like what that does. I like what I see 35 years from these men. Then it's achieved its goal, our goal, and it's fun and cool. It was great to do, right. And then we it wasn't until I, we just showed up every day and did the work. We weighed in figuratively Yep, figuratively, yep, okay, and showed up and did the work. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 46:58

Whatever it took that day to go ahead and work and really we've been working at that for three. It took up 30, 40 hours a week A minimum, sometimes 70, 80. Yeah, and the way. John put this together and edited it and all that stuff in his peak hours. He's doing other projects at the same time, yeah. And doing this just editing alone that takes six weeks yeah.

Speaker 2: 47:27

I can only imagine.

Speaker 3: 47:30

So this was a two-man operation, yeah, and with the help of our sparkle and yesy and sound and our attorneys, yeah, so yeah, it takes four attorneys and two guys.

Speaker 2: 47:44

That's it, yeah. That's a lot of work.

Speaker 3: 47:47

Yeah, it yeah. So I think that, like I said, if it helps more people appreciate the sport better, get a better job, get a better feel for it, that's great. I mean, we introduce you to a lot of characters that are, you know, they're fun people and, like I said, the Amantra was fun and cool.

Speaker 2: 48:06

And that's what wrestling is honestly to me anyways. But so you had two brothers on the team, right?

Speaker 3: 48:14

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 48:16

So what was that and you talked about? You know, you're the as the assistant, you were the recruiting guy and going through just sitting down with them and doing Because I know one of your brothers was with Kevin Dresser right, that was sitting with Kevin Dresser. Yeah, what did you? Did you sit with, like with them and kind of no, I looked at that time.

Speaker 3: 48:38

At that time it was you know time for John to take over and it was kind of Okay. We had about 10 questions and we asked each guy yeah, the same 10 questions. Yep, okay, and it's kind of funny because you wouldn't really know that you know what were the. You know what were the 10 questions were when you sat there and looked at what we got.

Speaker 3: 49:00

What they talked about yeah, they talked about, yeah, yeah. So it's enough about what you're asking. It's going to be End up being about what I want to talk about. So you know it was. You know I think I was. It was kind of funny because I probably admitted this lately that you know. I think I could have been. You know, as head coach you're now responsible for, you know, everybody in the program and all that.

Speaker 2: 49:26

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 49:27

So you know I was coaching they're both in two different spots. Jeff was a freshman trying to make the team and then Joe was returning national champion, yep, yep, and I think I could have. You know he got hurt in the middle of the year, earlier than the second half of the year, and that you saw him kind of coming back after that and he just needed a few more you know weeks of conditioning and all that stuff and it just yeah, it's just that. You know he finished third in the country anyway. Yeah, he was pretty darn good and had a great career as four-time All-American, four times in the top four and so national champion, and you know it. Like I said, looking back at it, it just looks like a stud out there. Yeah, you know, yeah, a lot of these guys do.

Speaker 3: 50:14

but it's just like Joe in particular. You know, it's just like he was and Dresser I mean that's a big deal for him. He won a big match there and ended up being the number one seed and that helped him gain a lot of confidence and it was a huge thanks for him. And but I think, yeah, I just I had that kind of that family thing going on, but I also just wanted to extend my family into being you know, I had a bunch of little brothers, you know.

Speaker 3: 50:46

So, and you know that worked for the most part, you know.

Speaker 2: 50:52

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 50:53

Well, I mean, obviously I couldn't be either dad, you know, but certainly in my coach would have been. Like you know, we Coach Nichols was 68 when he retired, so he's like a grandfather figure.

Speaker 2: 51:05

And he was there at that duel as well too. Yeah, yeah, right.

Speaker 3: 51:08

Yeah, he's had all our duels, yeah.

Speaker 2: 51:10

Nice, nice, and obviously he coached both you and Dan yeah.

Speaker 3: 51:16

So we didn't really get into talking about Coach Nichols that much you know. But yeah, he was a commonality and I think a lot of our, what we had learned, as you know. I say we Dan and I, you know he just didn't sweat a lot of details, yeah, and sometimes and that's probably any details at all, and you know I said this you probably had five meaningful conversations with them over your career. That was the over and under right.

Speaker 2: 51:43

Ball.

Speaker 3: 51:44

Yeah, okay. So it was just a quiet to himself, but cared deeply about his team. There's no doubt who was in control of the program. Yeah, you know you wrestled. Yeah, you know the guys that wrestled the 60s said you know, they always said I wrestled for Nick. Right, I wrestled for Nick. Yeah, they never. The word Iowa State never came into that. Yeah, I wrestled for Nick. I wrestled for Nick, you know.

Speaker 2: 52:11

That's amazing. But you know I got done.

Speaker 3: 52:13

I wrestled for Nick too, that's correct.

Speaker 2: 52:16

Yeah, that's right. So we talk about the duel itself and I think you, when you and I talked the first time, you know you're like Iowa fans and things that you also said before that this is just a ha ha ha. We won this duel but it's not. Do you get to that last episode and it rolls into.

Speaker 3: 52:38

Yeah, you know, the story just takes people there, right? Mm-hmm. But I really feel that with Gable's attachment to Iowa State how we define that right. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3: 52:54

And that's just history. And that's Dan talking about his time in Ames yeah, and then the fact that this ends up becoming about Gable. It morphs into Gable in the nine in a row, perfectly. Yeah, okay, yeah. And to where? Now that they're in the conversation is one of the greatest teams ever, mm-hmm, and with five national champions and a runner up, and you know two guys that end up winning nationals the following year Royce and Rico as place winners there, and then didn't even have. You know two of their guys that you know, mark Sennlinger had a phenomenal career as a football player and a two-time All-American wrestler, and then, of course, matt Eglin was an NCAA.

Speaker 3: 53:42

What the number could have been. Okay, yeah, yeah. And you know, we're looking at, like this year, we're looking at Penn State being heavily favored, okay, heavily, heavily favored, and teams that are kind of like the teams we're back in 86, maybe two, three guys that you can count on, but maybe not four or five guys that you can count on to maybe get enough points to kind of cut that spread a little bit. It could. We could be looking at, you know, that record being broken and we sit there and watch the tournament and they got to 60 points spread, yeah, and they're going to go. Well, holy cow Gable got that team to 72. Yeah, right, yeah, pretty much the same scoring system. So it's like, yeah, so I mean that becomes.

Speaker 3: 54:29

I really think you know, think about this. They got beat three weeks earlier and then they rolled up the biggest spread between one and two. Yeah, and how did that happen? I think the guys tell the story, right, yeah, they didn't lose confidence in themselves. They didn't, you know, nobody panicked, right, you know? Did you work harder? Yes, what is it punitive?

Speaker 3: 54:52

Not really All right, it just it was all designed you know again whatever he needed to do, when he needed to do it, they bought in yeah, they bought in.

Speaker 2: 55:02

They bought in.

Speaker 3: 55:02

Yeah, and I think and I think that, that. But like watching that and then having our team go through that and we tell the story about we got together afterwards and all that stuff, yeah, you know, and you know, I'm just really, you know, you can't describe Again, as I said, to make this about 87 would be very self-serving, right? Mm-hmm, sure, yep, but you see glimmers of what, why we were, why we got to where we got to the next year. The next year, yeah, because of the approach that we took, the approach we were taking that year because, again, we were a program with a lot of pride and you know, we wanted to be the one stop street.

Speaker 2: 55:46

Yeah, you know there's going to be a street.

Speaker 3: 55:49

That's going to go a long ways down sport today. Why is the dual relevant? It's because we have see it happening again before our very eyes. Yes, okay, and okay. So who's going to be the next team that? You know, guys, the coaches and everybody else buys into it. Yeah, and just they're going. You know, we can't rely on just having a couple of champions. We got to blow the doors off of them, right, yep, yep, so, yep, I agree, and that's, and I don't see that team out there yet.

Speaker 2: 56:21

Not yet. I mean so you like Penn State, like you brought up, maybe maybe they do something like that this year, but I don't, I don't know. After watching a couple other duels I'm not sure that'll happen, but I like. I like the film, I like the docu series, I like every aspect. Like I was telling you earlier, I really started getting into more of the Iowa State guys mindset and state of mind through the docu series and starting to listen to them, because there were wins that happened, that shouldn't have happened. No, they're on paper. On paper anyways, as far as looking at the Accomplishments that the Iowa guys had versus Iowa State guys. But they had a heart and they pushed through and they and they persevered through certain situations that you just don't see all the time and I think it makes it makes that story even greater, knowing of the stories that were in between there. I mean just you know, talking about Weight cutting, one guy was a little light, you know things like that.

Speaker 3: 57:19

So I'm glad you mentioned that because you know, when you're a young coach, okay, I'm 26 when I have that job yeah. And if you don't have performances like that, all right, people, you know, did we hire the right guy? That we did. We, you know, if you don't have everybody buying into it, or if they get in trouble downtown or whatever, if they, you know, occasionally there's stuff like that that happens, you know. You know, if you, if all that stuff becomes cumulative and you don't see what you saw up there, right. I.

Speaker 3: 57:56

Live along and I was. That team meant so much to me from the standpoint that they did everything that I asked them to do. And yeah, you know, and in some cases, I think they, they, you know, they they were. They felt like they had it on the line too. They bought in to the point where, you know, whatever you know, they knew that we're what we wanted to do was the best for them and and it wasn't an ego thing is just trying to help them become as good as they cost possibly to be and and they responded.

Speaker 3: 58:33

And when you're coaching or your first year, and you have a team that responds like that and doesn't you know? Well, we used to do it this way, we used to do it that way, or whatever I Could, I could, I could tell them that you know, no, we didn't, because I was here. I mean, we're doing, you know, we just got better at Doing that, but they bought into the expectations and they wanted it for themselves and that's the best thing and that that that team meant a lot to me. And then the following year, when we won nationals, I mean that didn't you know, you, you eliminated a lot of that talk. Why you, you hired a young guy.

Speaker 2: 59:06

Yep, yep and got it done. The other thing I kind of the unique thing that I think the most unique thing you had the referee Available for interview to talk about the matches and I think it was important that he brought up the fact that you know You're on Iowa Public Television Coating or refereeing a large duel and you want to make sure you get it right because no one gets to see Referees making calls like this. Right, no one gets to see this kind of stuff. You want to make sure you got it right. I Still argue. I still argue. The being out of bounds, shoulders being in, I think. I think he was in bounds, but it was a good call him being able to be Matt side, where he's telling Someone to go hold on, hold on, and you can see him rewinding it through his head, yeah, playing it while he's there.

Speaker 3: 59:57

I like that about Phil. Yeah, I like no take down, no take.

Speaker 2: 1:00:01

I was like that takes balls yeah it does.

Speaker 3: 1:00:03

But it's like my brother, jeff said. He says that if he hadn't called it that's why we named the episode nice, call Phil. My brother said he'd still be there, right.

Speaker 2: 1:00:18

So to you back, right.

Speaker 3: 1:00:20

Yeah, it was kind of funny because there's a shot behind it. You always got to look at the front table and if you look at, there's a guy by name of Todd still well, who's looking at this, and he's going. This match is going along. You know they're gonna get a decision and all that stuff, but you know that they could have got them. But the fall right back right there because you know there's no way Jeff stop in that. That was. That was yeah right. The only thing saved him was the whistle. But you know, yeah, the way they called it back then yeah, you know it's in cable was great. He goes, you know he was. He was like well, that must have been the rule back then and that was the way it was. Oh, it's like you're pretty calm there. You know you didn't go to work, though I mean that was big, it was a big moment, the match and he was, he was good.

Speaker 2: 1:01:05

Well, I think that's that's what was said, too, is that Someone needed to fight for me because Gable wasn't standing up and fighting for.

Speaker 3: 1:01:15

That's why. That's why Randall is the OW alright. Yeah, in my mind. I mean, if I had to say who's the OW, alright? From from where he started, you know, like you know, he's got it just Just unassuming interview. But where he, we did we don't close. He helped us close the the how we're gonna finish this thing. Yeah where the stories go. Okay, yeah, his, uh, his, his, his, basically his part in this was Helped us basically close it out. That was we wouldn't have got there without Greg Randall great.

Speaker 3: 1:01:50

I keep on telling him as a man, you're, you're the OW in this thing and you know he says no human being would do that to another human being. Gable, might you know? Look, said the camera, he's got this. You know that. This look of you know, yeah, wow, look, he's just, he's just perfect that we really were tickled that that we could bring him that character to life. You know, he's a he's great guy.

Speaker 3: 1:02:17

Yeah, I did comedy for a little bit and I'd be willing to have him or Penrith on stage yeah oh, my god, you know Penrith was was uh oh, and you know, coming back into the Russell offer he had, you know he said I basically had all the bet north there. You know there's yeah, I was a people from Beton or there. You know I got a rustle and he said wasn't like it was, you know he wasn't like to.

Speaker 3: 1:02:46

You know we're gonna have a Russell off. It took him probably a day and a half to find Paul. You know, yeah, it didn't. You know, yeah, that that was a the running thing and yeah, and you can see, you can hear, you can see and hear Penrith probably talking back to Gable, you know, and I could, yeah, I could see that yeah now we're gonna have a rustle. I was wondering what I was gonna do, right?

Speaker 3: 1:03:14

Yeah, yeah so anyway, this, this whole thing I mean Again did for us to get this on all four straining services and all that make it easy for people to watch it. We, we are, you know, we, just to let you know we couldn't have done this with you know, we did five screenings. We did, you know, sioux City, iowa City, ames, waterloo, yeah, des Moines, yeah, and theaters and stadiums and hotel A lot. So we've had, you know, it's probably 1200 people watch it in the screening format just an episode or so. We just get together. So it's brought a lot of people together and you know we could have done that without you know. Guys, like you know, we showed this to the wrestlers in business network, you know, almost two years ago in, okay, in the spring, before the nationals, yeah, and a guy by name of Larry Conley watched it one time and gave us $5,000, right, wow, and and what? Watch one episode Rob Lermer, who set it up as a generous donor for us. I mean today. So this is move people and they, they, they. I think that that's been cool. Reynolds Kramer, from fairway Food stores here in Iowa in, okay, but I'm in states probably got a fairway up close by where you are, yeah, and it's like you know, good friend of mine, that they don't help sponsor us and help just go ahead.

Speaker 3: 1:04:41

Put these, these Screenings together. They brought a lot of people back together teammates, you know, you know get had seen each other and you know 30 years or what. Yeah, you know, you know they ended up. You know, for both schools for that matter, yeah, and but I really think it just becomes a time capsule of what wrestling was like back at that time period here, the very important time. And you know, when Gable wins and his team win that 86 nationals and set that record and, and you know, unbeknownst to them, when you're watching that interview with Frank Gifford and Dan Gable, you don't get the feeling that that there's anything stopping them from putting it together for a long period of time. And we get it done the next year, yeah, and so that that's, that's what's, you know. You know there's just little seeds like that that are just cool, but but it's, you know we put everything into our dual foundation, you know.

Speaker 3: 1:05:44

Yeah, we get from these screening as a maybe would. Maybe, you know, someday we might get to do something else, but it's out there forever now, you know forever, it's out there forever. It's on Amazon Prime, it's on Apple iTunes, it's on Google, you know. So it's, you've got. You got all these you know major screening Platforms that it's on right now that you can go ahead and access yeah, you know, to be able to watch it. It's 999. Yep, you know, you watched it? What would you tell somebody about it?

Speaker 2: 1:06:14

Oh man, I would, honestly. I, because you, you, you speak about the rivalry thing, right, and to me that's, that was the epitome of what was going on. But then, as you watch, there's so much more to it. There's storyline after storyline. I mean to me, the one that sticks out in my head Specifically is the penrith story about having to wrestle glin and glin, having to drop what 1215 pounds that day to wrestle off, like Just little things like that that stick out in my head.

Speaker 2: 1:06:44

Anyways, I would tell someone that if you want to watch High competitive, highly, highly competitive and high level athletes Talk about something that they went through that may have been a life-changing type of thing for them, and and watch a rivalry, rivalry unfold, this is definitely what you want to watch, for sure, and at the end of the day, you get to see you high-level athletes reacting to something that either went their way or didn't go their way.

Speaker 2: 1:07:14

There's a lot of emotion. It's a roller coaster of emotions for, I think, anybody that would watch it. But here's the other thing, though, too. I don't know if someone who doesn't know wrestling would be able to get that out of it If they don't understand how rivalry like that works. Wrestling is a different beast when it comes to the atmosphere that it brings in the. The type of training alone that goes into wrestling is completely different. So someone to watch it and sit down for me to explain it to them. I would just tell them that if you like storylines and you love characters, there's plenty of them in here, plenty of them in this documentary.

Speaker 3: 1:07:54

Well, for the most part, it's really not about the wrestling Right. The wrestling is by design because we wanted to invite people into it who have never been a part of the sport. Okay, I understand that a little bit better now.

Speaker 2: 1:08:13

Yup.

Speaker 3: 1:08:15

So if it becomes about technique and it becomes about strategy and what happened in a match and all that stuff, what. I was thinking at that point in time that's not what it's about.

Speaker 2: 1:08:27

No, no, and they didn't even. Honestly, the guys didn't even really talk like that about the match you know it was. It was like, oh, you'd see their reaction to it. They were still telling a different story. It wasn't all. If I could have, if I could have gotten a little lower on my shot, on that, one might have been a couple times. That was it. That was it.

Speaker 3: 1:08:47

That's not, that, that's not and that's not going to bring a wider audience. No to it. But so we've had people that screened this, that never watched a wrestling match before meet or have no, and, like I said, they're intrigued by the characters that the people you know, and you know everybody's you know, heard the hurt.

Speaker 3: 1:09:09

You don't have to go too far. You know, everybody's heard the name Gable and this is this is. This is a significant. It's pretty cool how, how, I think I think coach is pretty proud of what we did here. Good.

Speaker 2: 1:09:24

I know you. I know.

Speaker 2: 1:09:26

I mean I'm pretty, I'm pretty impressed. I mean I pride I don't know if I can put pride into it because I don't you know, I don't have skin in the game but I'm thoroughly impressed with the guys. Yeah, this is like you said. I mean there's, there's emotions that are involved in it, but at the end of the day, these guys grew as characters and as people in and, as you know, they have families and things like that.

Speaker 2: 1:09:46

And to be able to get the insight of a high level athlete, that is, it's in a grueling sport, to be able to just get their insight. And you know, like you said, the story lines. I like stories about happy, happy vans and sad vans. You know those are the stories I want to hear about and, whether or not they're true or not, the mystique that goes behind a lot of this stuff. So you there, they're there. They left you also sometimes with the I want more. You know, wait, there's, there's more. I want to know more, I want to know more. So I'm to the point to where, like, I want to reach out to Penrith Now. I want to talk to him about, you know, wrestling and see what he thinks, because they leave you with so much left on the table to like, hear or talk about. That don't necessarily even have to do with the dual, but they bring that out and that telling stories like that really brings people even more into something like that like a documentary. So it was really great to see the amount of guys that were willing to sit down and do it. I think it's a feat in itself is just contacting guys and then traveling, sitting down with them on a golf course or going to their barn and sitting in their barn. You know it's a lot of work, you know it's your brother's barn, I knew that. But as far as it's a lot of work, you know, and for those guys to be willing to kind of sit down and they understood the importance, you can tell you know they knew the importance. I think it was at.

Speaker 2: 1:11:07

Randall was talking about 16 to 15. I'm like what are you talking about, 16 to 15? Then he starts explaining like, oh, yeah, okay, that brings even more out. You know that doesn't even really have to do with wrestling at all, it's just about hey, who else did that? Now I'm going to go on my phone and I'm going to start looking up history. I want to see what's going on. So now you've exposed people. They want to know more and they want to find out more. So you're drawing people even more into wrestling, which I think is pretty cool. It's a cool way to do it.

Speaker 2: 1:11:36

So I appreciate you coming on, jim, I'm going to get out of your hair. You've got the, you've got family time, things to do and and things like that. But I want to leave you with this. If you ever want to do something, let me know, because I would love to be involved in it. I would love to sit down and I I'm so much a history buff about wrestling that I I've been wanting to do it. I I've been watching middle school wrestling meets from 1986 from Utah. I just like watching wrestling, so it doesn't matter what it is. You let me know. If you guys ever need a hand with something, I would be more than willing to help you guys out.

Speaker 3: 1:12:18

But you got any lasting thoughts? Well, yeah, we appreciate you, brad, because you know we're trying to. You know this isn't a high budget. We've got an item here. We figured that if, once we got it out there, that would try to work organically, grow and, and it's done that and it's achieved a lot of goals, particularly the, the kind of intangibles about bringing a lot of people together and that's that. That. That was the was the real cool thing and in fact you know but it takes, you know it takes, you know the other things you've learned about this that the wrestling media crowd. They're just into what they do. I understand what it is. This is, this is something that's a little bit different. This is, you know, may not fit into the box and to get busy people to sit down and to watch six hours of it, but really you can. I don't. I don't think you can understand what's going on today, all right, in full context, without going back and taking a look about what happened in in 86.

Speaker 2: 1:13:27

Yeah, with the nine in a row.

Speaker 3: 1:13:30

And you know, because everybody say, well, you know what's going to stop, it was what's going to. You know, I don't know. I mean, I don't know if it can be stopped right now. But right, but by by something. The only way it can be stopped is somebody raises their level to the level that that Penn State I'm not rooting for that to stop, I didn't root for it to stop back then All right, we just had to get ourselves to that level, whether you can sustain it for a long period of time or not, but that you can't understand. About what's going on today, all right, without having some little background of what, when it was happening before, that's actually even happening before that with Myron and Oklahoma State teams, and you know that that that whole process there's usually was something that was going on that was unique. It was a, you know, not just a call to personality. There was some structural things that happened and I think that that personality is also part of it too.

Speaker 2: 1:14:23

But you know yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:14:25

Wrestling, wrestling. You watch it four times. Yep, you wanted to get together and talk about it. I can't be more happy that to be able to talk about something that we put so much effort into that we're very proud of here. They brought a lot of people together. We put everything into our foundation. You know that we're running it out of this, or the dual foundation, and you know so that you know if we make any money off that goal goes into that. And you know we're going to do a little bit more advertising as we head into post-wrestling shock syndrome. All right, the post season, yeah, and go from there. But I thoroughly appreciate you watching this and then sounds like you, you must have been satisfied after the. You know after the first one that you wouldn't have done the second time.

Speaker 2: 1:15:15

So I was.

Speaker 3: 1:15:16

Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 2: 1:15:18

Yeah, you bet I'm going to leave us with this. You guys go check out the dual. It's on Google Play, it's on Prime Video, it's on Apple TV, it's on iTunes. I mean, if you can't find it, call me, I'll direct you to it, because it's everywhere and it's also on.

Speaker 3: 1:15:35

you can find it through our website. The dual, you know the dual Yep, the dot org.

Speaker 2: 1:15:40

D U A L, not D U A L.

Speaker 3: 1:15:43

Yeah, we're not shooting people, right Right.

Speaker 2: 1:15:47

And that's that's.

Speaker 3: 1:15:48

That's kind of funny, because, uh, because people revert back, well, it's a dual, all right. So, yeah, no, we're not shooting people, there's nobody's dying afterwards, right, okay, okay, it's, but it's the double entendre of the two, right? Yes, the two programs two programs, two storylines.

Speaker 2: 1:16:08

Yeah, happy birthday, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:16:10

Yeah, I don't know that was cool, that was neat, it was a good time for it, that was because I did this or what.

Speaker 2: 1:16:17

Maybe I don't know. Is that your phone? No, I don't know, I don't know. But it was a good way to end it. But, jim, again I appreciate it. We will, uh, we'll leave people with that. Go check out the dual 1986. It's more than just a wrestling story. Thanks, guys. Yeah.