The Carla Podcast

Episode 14: Jamillah James

September 04, 2019 Jamillah James
The Carla Podcast
Episode 14: Jamillah James
Show Notes Transcript

 Welcome to Season 3 of The Carla Podcast

This episode, host Lindsay Preston Zappas is joined by curator Jamillah James for an in-depth conversation spanning the whole episode. They discuss James’ background in music and fast-track from overcoming serious illness to landing her current role as chief curator at ICA LA in a span of just nine years. 

James and LPZ discuss the responsibility of the museum to be accessible, accountable, and willing to learn from its public. James talks about the contemporary as something that is actively unfolding, and how to curate the contemporary while it is constantly evolving. She also shares her thoughts about showing generosity and mentorship to a younger generation, and the importance of teaching professional practice. Plus, a sneak peek into her largest curatorial project to date and the ICA’s ambitious plan to crowdfund their museum. 

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You can submit a question to Dear Carla by emailing us at [email protected] or DM us on Instagram @contemporaryartreview.la


LPZ:

Hi and welcome to the third season of the Carla podcast. My name is Lindsay Preston Zappas and I am the founder and editor-in-chief of contemporary art review Los Angeles. Carla is a quarterly art magazine, online journal and podcasts committed to being an active source for critical dialogue surrounding Las art community. I'm so thrilled to have curator, Jamillah James as my guest this episode and we've dedicated the whole episode to my interview with her. We talk about her background in music and curating, hear about her role at the ICA LA and go deep into her thoughts on the responsibility of museums and curators to be held accountable. "We can't just pretend that we're working in a vacuum anymore." "Yeah" "...and I think a lot of people woke up, you know, three years ago, you know, it did open up a whole host of like very important but very difficult conversations." "Yeah." "You know, within our field that you know, revealed that like none of us are immune to having to be held accountable for our decisions." This is a packed episode, so stay with us. The Carla podcast is supported in part by the Institute of contemporary art Los Angeles celebrating no wrong holes. 30 years of Nayland Blake and Sady Barnett , the new Eagle Creek saloon opening on Sunday, September 29th with open house from two to 6:00 PM both exhibitions on view through January 26 more [email protected] Welcome back. Jamillah James is the chief curator at the ICA Los Angeles and has held curatorial posts at the hammer, the Queens museum and the studio museum in Harlem. Despite this impressive resume, James has only been curating for nine years and talks about finding art and curating a little bit later than some of her colleagues. In this conversation, we take an extended look at her background in music and how she slowly transitioned into the world of contemporary art. James described some of her early experiences working odd jobs like at whole foods and overcoming a catastrophic illness as she began her career and curating. Later we discuss her experiences at the hammer, her role at the ICA LA and what it was like going from working on a team of curators to being the only curator at the ICA. We also discussed the role of curators and museums to be held accountable and to learn from and adapt to it's public. We also talk about the importance of mentorship and generosity towards the next generation because as Jamilla puts it, why not? Here's my conversation with Jamila James . Hi Jamilla.

Jamillah James:

Hi.

LPZ:

Hello. So as I was prepping for this, I, you and I have talked about how busy you are. It's like clear how busy you are, but I think as I was prepping for this interview, I realized how deeply busy you are, like , like deep busy-ness . Um, okay. So I'm just going to list a few things. Tell me what I'm missing. Curator at the ICA. You're on several boards that I could find the women's center for creative work. Dirty looks. Yes. Advise me . Advisory. Yeah . Okay. You teach in the graduate art department art center. You're curating the 2021 triennial at the new museum. You're curating at the armory show, you're also curating current LA, which is going to be food themed coming up. Right? That's true. Yeah . In addition to just visiting lectures , panels, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Jamillah James:

I'm probably missing a lot, but trying to have a life he had . Hazel . So this is my question and I think this is a bit of like an LA question, but how do you balance, let's talk about balance , Jamila . Oh, you know, I mean it's, it can be a challenge. You know, I'm not gonna say that it's not, but it's part of being in this field is actively participating as much as one can. Um, I think I have a large capacity for, you know, taking on different projects. Um, I like being busy. You know, I did start doing this work a little late in life, so a lot of it, I think it feels like I'm catching up, but it's been remarkable being able to do all of the stuff. Um, I mean, I'm very adamant about getting eight hours of sleep every night, again in bed at 11. Um, I check out of email on Friday nights at 6:00 PM, like, don't even try to email me cause I'm not gonna look at it until Monday. That is awesome. And to learn , try very hard to not do any kind of seeing or going to openings or anything on weekends or weekends are like my time to do things like sit on the couch and like catch up on 48 hours or days or just like hang out with my cat or hang out with my, my significant other. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's how I try to balance it. That's so important. I love the email tip. That's a good tip. I definitely don't subscribe to that. I need to like, yeah, you know, it's a lot. So if I can just like cut myself out about on weekends and like maybe catch up on my personal email. Oh Hey, there's a thing like my Westelm circulars, you know, it's , I take opportunity to cut out a little bit.

LPZ:

Yeah. That's awesome. Uh, okay . So you mentioned you're late to curating late to the art world a little bit and you have a background in music. So I want to kind of like talk about that and , uh, that transition period for you from music into art.

Jamillah James:

Sure. As a kid I grew up playing multiple instruments. My mother was a musician. I mean she still actively musician, but she taught music , um , in public schools in North New Jersey. Um, where our family's from and I grew up playing multiple instruments , uh, violin, tuba, drums, bass.

LPZ:

Those are all so different.

Jamillah James:

They're very different. I cannot play piano. I 've n ever been able to play piano. Yeah, n o, it's weird. I t's the eye... The hand coordination. But you know, in my early twenties, I was, you know, involved heavily in the music scene in Chicago. And I 'll s ay like before Chicago, I was living in Boston and you know, Boston had some really great clubs like the middle East club. And I used to work at this movie theater, the Coolidge corner theater, u h, where, you know, we didn't get paid very much, but one of the perks was getting to go see shows at the middle East club for nothing. Y eah. So I was like going to see concerts like three times, four times a week. So i t was always like an Uber nerd about music and wanting to do more. And you know, I got this loft in the S outh, t he South side of Chicago, my roommate and I s tart putting together shows and our basement and eventually I moved up the street to another place and you know, they were doing screenings and art shows and I was like, well I'm g oing t o bring some like, you know, ridiculous like cacophonous foolishness this, right. So you know, I started booking music there and like one of the first things I booked there was like, I want to say my 23rd birthday party and lightning bolt played l ike, and t hey were like 800 kids i n the living room. And you know, I was super invested in music for so long and being a fan and like wanting to create these situations for people that felt like, you know, dominant culture wasn't something that they were participating in. And it wasn't just like, you know, just like the w eirdos like me but like also people that look like me who felt like they didn't really have a place, u m, you know, i n the s cene. So doing that kind of work eventually let lent itself to doing other work. You know, I was in school at the time and I was a student of art history and like cultural studies and media studies and you know I started becoming really interested less i n making art cause I was just terrible at it but more in creating situations. So yeah I don't like the idea of like organizing music shows as being any kind of curation. Like it just makes m oney want to like rip my eyes out when people use that terminology for booking music. C ause it's not that, you know, there isn't the scholarship and other things that are involved. Sure. As i s the case with like fine art curation. But you know, I started working with an organization on campus to organize exhibitions at school and then I o rganized my first exhibition, which was around sound and people making instruments. So it was like t his j ust o ver c rossing like my two primary interests, like music and art and I mean I was 24 when I started doing that stuff and I interned at the Hyde park a rt center. That was my first kind of institutional gig. U m, you know, became interested in institutions at that point. But you know, it was many years later that I actually started working in institutions. I mean, I've only been working in institutions since 2010. Yeah, a lot of the years in between my time in Chicago and finally getting an institutional gig in New York in 2010 when I was 30, you know, spent doing various types of jobs. I mean, I worked at whole foods. I worked at this weird theater in Chicago that did this insane revival of the Rocky horror picture show Mike a nd updated it so that like the big, l ike climactic sequence at the end when everyone's in the pool was a rave. O h, it was a lot. U m, but you know, I worked at Pearl art for a long time a s a student and I thought I was going to do art stuff. That's not what happened. I ended up working at Scholastic books for a number of years. T heir art department and then I worked as a proofreader for a w hile and like a quality control person for a while.

LPZ:

I had no idea. You have so much publication and like copy editing. Yeah.

Jamillah James:

Yeah, yeah... I mean it's something that's always kind of lurked or whatnot. I mean, I made zines in high school. Um, so yeah, I mean officially, officially, like I did some independent work in Baltimore where I lived for a couple of years, like working with artists, run spaces there to really test out ideas and you know, that was where I committed really to wanting to do curatorial work. And you know, I moved back to New York in 2010 for a couple of reasons. I had like , uh , a serious health incident that necessitated that I moved home to New Jersey for a little while and then I started, I applied for a fellowship at the Queens museum. And got that.

LPZ:

And so before you get to that, I'm just curious what kept you in art like switching from music because it's not, I mean, I've talked to a lot of artists and curators and that have a sort of music background. Like it's not that uncommon, but I'm always curious what keeps you in this field , uh, and you of course can be involved in both, but you're highly dedicated to the field of art.

Jamillah James:

Extremely, yeah.

LPZ:

So I'm curious like what if there was like a magnetism that pulled you towards art over music?

Jamillah James:

You know, I think because there's so many different areas to delve into and to focus on, I think that is one reason. I mean, it's not to say that there aren't, you know, a multitude of genres in music. But you know, in terms of like an academic interest, I didn't want to be a musicologist. And at some point I needed to decide what it was that I was going to do. Like, did I want to work at clubs and book music? No, not especially.

LPZ:

We already talked about your bedtime's at 11.

Jamillah James:

I don't really like crowds... I hate loud noises now... It's just like, "ugh", but in terms of dedicating myself to this field, I mean I think I just had an epiphany at some point while I was in college, you know, I was really committed for a while to being an arts writer. Yeah. And I wanted to be like, write theory and like do this really intensive stuff that would have a very limited audience, but so true. You know, I think it's just the fun of it and like having these sustained interactions with artists, other curators, writers like this really expansive field of people and not just like, you know, having things be focused on like a singular event, you know, as is the case with making music or like, you know, kind of gathers all that energy in one place and then releases it. But actually having this like very sustained dialogue about certain ideas or ways of production or just like focusing on a particular a rtist and like, you know, kind of looking through their career and seeing, you know, what you can bring forward about that artist to a public. The thing is... genre i s a weird thing. Like with music, the kind of music that I gravitate towards, it's like, you know, weirdo, obscure stuff that like a very small number of people are actually interested in. And I feel like by and large, people are very interested in museums or institutions. And I think especially right now, if you think about the ways that our institutions are being spoken about in public discourse, you know, people talking about, you know, the recent situation at the Whitney around like in popular media. The reach of museums is really interesting. So to be a person that gets to work inside of an institution and really try to build something that is very forward thinking or can have longevity is something that's interesting to me. And also who I can bring to the table and who I can create scholarship around or support scholarship around through exhibition making and writing. It, it just felt like something that could be a lifelong prospect as opposed to being a person that's aging and maybe not being interested in the music that I was interested in as a professional pursuit. My ears start to go and my back and then my God, I w e n t to a concert a couple of weeks ago, the Stranglers who were like one of my favorite bands. My back was wrecked for like three days afterwards. I'm like trying to stand up and bop to the music and ju st like 'I'm too old for this shit now.' Yeah. I'm telling listen to it from the safety of your couch in my bed under my covers. Like with my Advil and my cat. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I mean I can, I c o u ld, I , I could be in this field as long as you know, I'm ab l e to and fu nction in different capacities. Like you do n't always need to be a curator. I could wri te, I could teach. What is the next frontier? I have no idea.

LPZ:

Good question. Um, so also I'm curious about like you, I feel, I mean I've a similar, I think later start to the art world as well. So your timeline sounds familiar to me, but what you were saying, it's like sort of a late arrival and I'm curious if you felt like you had to play catch up and what that kind of acquisition of knowledge and you said you're like, you, some of your habits of working really hard or maybe from that time where you felt like you had to sort of catch up or, or uh, sort of acquaint yourself. Um , and I'm curious just those early moments with like gatekeepers and kind of, you know, the art world's specialty knowledge and how you entered that.

Jamillah James:

Yeah, I mean for a long time, and maybe in some respects still lingering, had a lot of sensitivities about being an older person.... In my mid, late twenties, being in entry level art history courses and graduating school at 25 I think like my undergrad at 25 because you know, I ran out of funding and there was all this stuff and you know, not being able to really take on a full time internship because I had bills to pay and I unfortunately did not have the privilege of working full time at a museum for no money–an unpaid internship– or working at a publication and not being paid. I had to like hustle. I felt that I needed to do more. I mean there are some peers that I saw that were hitting benchmarks really early who I thought, 'Oh, I should be where they are, but I do n't k n ow h ow.' And to be honest, it was also this barrier that I had in my mind, which may not have been like to i naccurate, but like being concerned, you know, being a person of color, being in this field and not being sure if like I would have opportunities. So it took a really long time for me to feel confident in my ideas, to put myself out there to really go for things that suited me well or that like I could bring something to the table. It was really when I went to Baltimore in 2007-2008 ...where, and this is after being in New York for a couple of years and not really doing anything, not participating, not going to galleries... Just feeling like so insecure in my place and like what I wanted to achieve, and not thinking that I had any inroads whatsoever living in New York. Cau se li ke everyone goes to New York at a certain point and they want to be in the Big Apple and like live the life. But as someone who's... Lived a life with pretty debilitating anxiety moments, I didn't think I h a d th at there was anything that I had to offer and tha t I had any in ro a ds. S o it was whe n, I mean I eventually left New York to go to Baltimore and it was... I moved to Baltimore and then started to feel as if, well this is a community of people that are really supportive. There is a built in community of artists that are here who are doing interesting work, w h o might be willing to work with me on a project. And I started curating shows, you know, there's space called Current Gallery that actually just bought their building in Baltimore, which is really awesome and wel l-deserved th at I did a show with called Agenda: Queering, popular media, which was included a lot of local people that were local at the time. Ryan [in audible] ca rtons, a family finds entertainment. I showed that, u m , w h en Greenwood I showed their wor k dy nasty handbag, a couple of other people in a Baltimore setting. It was important for me to put the work of local artists in contact with artists outside the city who like had a national or international reputation. And that worked out pretty well and it and gave me the confidence to explore other ideas and work on other shows. I was able to reach out and expand my reach to artists that I was admiring from afar. And that work did help with getting some recognition outside of Baltimore. U h, B rian j oint C orps, u m, who is a writer and a friend, u h, who writes for Art in America came to see the Funny Games show. We didn't know each other at all. I think we may have, may have corresponded over email, but you know, it was through that, that when the Queens Museum was looking for a fellow, Larissa Harris who's head curator o r there i s friendly with B rian and he mentioned me a s s omeone that he had encountered in Baltimore and, and he encouraged me to apply for that fellowship. It was really, it was super cool. And you know, it's, at that time I was beginning to get a little antsy in Baltimore. I mean, I couldn't find a job in a museum or any place there because people get the jobs in Baltimore and they stay there for like 15-20 years. They don't leave. So I worked as a nanny and Baltimore, which for most people that know me, they think it's hilarious. I was in charge of small children [inaudible] um , but it was a teenager and like a seven year old boy. And then like I did have to move back to New York or New Jersey cause I got very sick. Um, and my last couple of months in Baltimore, like I couldn't walk for a couple of weeks and it was pretty gnarly . Like it was actually a near death experience. And you know, I had to move back North to and stay home with my mom for awhile while I regained, you know, all of my faculties. And during that time, you know, it's looking for things in New York to do. I worked for a little while as a tutor and then the Queens museum, you know, deadline came up and I interviewed and I got it. And I was driving from Morris Plains, New Jersey to flushing Queens every day. Yeah. Which is like an hour and a half. But um , wow. You know, and I was, I celebrated my 30th birthday that year, you know, after a harrowing couple of months where, you know, Israel at my time my health was extremely touch and go for a while. I mean I got my first institutional job nine years ago, so I'll be 39 this year.

LPZ:

Did that stand out to you as sort of like a moment? Like at the time you're were like, okay , I'm turning 30 my health is coming back, I'm working, am getting my start in a museum. Was that palpable or is that like looking back it's easy to, you know....

Jamillah James:

hugely, hugely, hugely important. You know, it was a new lease on life, like literally in so many ways. Like I survived this catastrophic health event, you know, I was able to come back to New York, the city that I loved, and then I landed with an institutional gig at a really reputable and important museum in the city of New York. So yeah, I mean we just , we have a show now on view from the Queens museum, the Patty Chang exhibition that's on view. So it was really awesome. Three 60 to work with my former colleagues on that exhibition at this very different place in my life.

LPZ:

The Carla Podcast is supported in part by the contemporary art digest or the CAD known today as an Instagram platform highlighting the work of contemporary painters. The cat is releasing its inaugural print issue. A short form monograph about Los Angeles based artists , Erin Morrison , the book launches September 7th in conjunction with the opening of Morrison's new exhibition colony at Occi Projects. You can learn more and follow the cat on Instagram at the dot C. dot. A dot. D and on the web at www dot c-a-d dot org

Jamillah James:

I moved here five years ago to be assistant curator at the hammer, which was an incredible opportunity. Um , it , yeah , I had no designs on moving Los Angeles and I'm so grateful that I ended up, yeah, I read that you were thinking about applying to grad school . I was , I was enrolled in a PhD program that I was going to be starting at the university of Rochester that fall. And then, and then hammer called and I have no regrets whatsoever. It's the best and smartest decision I've made to be here. And like, you know, working with the team at the hammer and a Philbin, Connie Butler and El good. Um , Allie Subotnick RM, all of them, you know, it was amazing. And getting to work on the art and practice project was really incredible.

LPZ:

So tell me about that and how you kind of got that or how you were chosen to work with that because that's really amazing. I feel like you were given a lot of license there.

Jamillah James:

Yeah. I mean it was a special project that had, you know, a finite timeline, you know, it was an experiment that went really well, you know, the hammer , um, and our , and practice were both able to expand their reach , um, through that partnership. Right. And, you know, I as an individual, you know, with the support of, you know, the hammer and art and practice , um, was able to work on some ambitious programming, you know, with artists that maybe hadn't shown in LA, like Alex to Courtenay hadn't shown in an institution at that point, Intertek deck and ULI Crosby and like, you know, getting to work with her on not one but two shows. So you didn't show with her art and practice and the hammer. Yeah. So shit , this blockbuster. Yeah. I mean it was really, really cool. And you know, it of course was, you know, an important opportunity for me. I may wouldn't be here with you right now if it hadn't been for the hammer hiring me. Yeah . You know, when the partnership ended, you know , um, our in practice has been doing quite well. Yeah . Operating independently, staging really great shows, doing a really robust and interesting public programs. Um, you know, it came time to look for other work and you know, the ICA was looking for someone and then it all worked out.

LPZ:

That's amazing. I mean, I listened to this podcast called how I built this, which is like an impairment and they always ask how much is luck and how much is hard work? And I feel like those two things like just you and your retelling of this, it's like, okay, this person connected me here. It's those moments I think are so serendipitous, but obviously you're hustling through it.

Jamillah James:

I'm a very hard worker. Yeah . I have to like hit pause sometimes because I go a little bit overboard.

LPZ:

I'm the same way.

Jamillah James:

But yeah, I mean it's, I've been extremely fortunate. I mean, I know every position that I've had, every institution that I've worked for – the Queens museum, the studio museum in Harlem, the hammer of course, ICA currently– you know, it's been a really quick ascent. But it's not without a lot of hard work and dedication.

LPZ:

What was it like to go to the ICA after all your experiences working on a team of curators and at the, I say you are the curatorial team like you Jamila . So I'm curious if that was freeing Dawn teen , what was that like?

Jamillah James:

You know, it's, it's a, it's, it's an amalgamation of those things I think. I mean, it is an interesting proposition to be, you know, out of a situation where there is a team dynamic, you know, where I was a junior curator on a team of like some of the best curators working today, you know, to being, you know, a person that is, you know, working in concert with my director of course. Um, but, you know, kind of the, the, the point person really for the program and, you know, it's a , it was a steep learning curve. I'm not gonna lie, you know, I, they , I've had a lot of experiences in different capacities, like working independently, working , uh, you know, museums of varying scale, but you know, to be the person that's in a position of management and it's a whole different ball of wax. It's the vote of confidence that I've been, you know , looking for, you know, I have the capacity and the opportunity now to work on bigger projects, and it's a nice thing at ICA that there's not a whole lot of bureaucracy, really.

LPZ:

Right.

Jamillah James:

Or, you know, a lot of oversight or you know, a lot of people with opinions. It's a really direct process and conversation with my director. But it's been a really interesting time to get to learn so much of how to... Be a more senior curator , and to work on larger projects that have historical scope or are more complex. And actually assembling a program. I'm thinking about how things relate to each other and, being really responsible to our public by virtue of like the things that we're putting on the schedule.

LPZ:

Right. And that's something I wanted to talk with you about is feeling like beholden to a region but also looking outward and uh, sort of how you were talking about Baltimore, like sort of, you know, supporting the artists in that place alongside bringing people in and what that balance looks like.

Jamillah James:

Yeah. I mean, LA is not just like our regional area. I mean, we're extremely fortunate to have some incredible artists here. And you know, part of the , the impulse at the ICA for me is to like, look at the history of production in this city and like people that have come here, worked here, schooled here, so on and so forth and like to make sure that that is a current through the programming and always tethered it to the local, you know, so that there's always, you know, either someone, an artist that someone is learning more about who may not have known that that person lived or worked here in any capacity or you know, a younger artist that's based here now and giving them the institutional support like right out the gate. I think is really mportant. And you know, we're a city that has a lot of contemporary art museums, of varying scales. And that's what we do here. I mean there's, you know, LACMA and the Getty are encyclopedic, but you know, you have the hammer MOCA black mall . So I was like a contemporary program. You have Marciano, you have Broad you know, so there's so, and there's also like, you know, museums like a V Pam, the Vincent Price museum, and then all these other museums that are doing really incredible. I mean also the university museums, like there's so many great places that are making really fine exhibitions. So how do you move to distinguish yourself and your program? And I think the one thing that I know that we're committed to is really giving a place to artists that are in this city, not just focusing on the local but contextualizing the local across the country, across the international landscape and how does being a non collecting institution fit into that and , and feeling that freedom to support younger artists or doing just weirder shows with established artists. It's freeing in a lot of ways, but it's also extremely challenging. When an institution has a collection, there is something that's tangible to support. Like the idea of an exhibition is alluring and the historical importance of said exhibition might be alluring, but it is it a challenge to get people to support exhibitions at an institution that does not collect because the end game for the exhibition is not acquiring something. It is just, you know, you're supporting an artist and their practice and like the future of scholarship around this artist. So I could see why that's a harder sell. It's a real challenge. And it's a unique one. There are some nonprofits and smaller institutions here. We're kind of at that middle stage between a larger institution and a smaller nonprofit and we can do ambitious programming within reason at our scale. There are some things that we can strive to do to not compensate, but to fill out the program and like the richness of the program . So , not just offering exhibitions, and not just offering programs, but maybe getting more invested in writing or publication, which is something that I'd like very much to do. But you know, capital is always an issue. So yeah, I mean I think there is this p recedence for this kind of activity. I mean there's plenty of non-collecting institutions throughout the country. I mean the New Museum cam Houston, ICA Philly, you know, some formerly non-collecting have transitioned into collecting. Like ICA Boston. So there's like plenty of people that are doing this work in this way here. I mean it's definitely a European model, but you know, it's, I think having the kind of [ inaudible] you know, in the landscape alongside the smaller nonprofit, the commercial gallery, you know, the m id museum, the mega museum, a collector museum. I think it's important to have that diversity.

LPZ:

Definitely. Yeah. And so that's interesting you say that because one of my questions was, how do you see the role of the museum functioning within sort of the art world at large, but you're even splitting the hairs of like, no , this, this scale of this museum is different than obviously the Broad or something like that. But, but even being a non collecting institution with the budget you have, et cetera .

Jamillah James:

Yeah, I mean I don't think, I mean I'm not sure, I'm not privy to the operating budgets of like other institutions here except for maybe the ones that I've worked at. But you know, we are a smaller, we are a small institution, we have great ambitions, but we're small at scale. We have a small staff, you know, what we want to accomplish. You know, it's a multi year proposition. Yeah . Um, but you know, it is important to have, I mean, New York city, I'm not to like compare the two, but New York has, you know, this history of alternative spaces like the seems like a major research interest of mine where you have organizations like white columns, artists , space art in general. Like this exit art, all these really important historical organizations. I've done some of the most important like work, you know, that's been foundational to so much of what we understand of this field now. And, but there , there's always been like, you know, the midsize museums, like P S one was like started in 76. The new museum started in 77, you know, so it's like the kitchen that has, you know, the performance and the video, then the media specialization. And there's always been like the mega museums, right ? So I mean MOMA is the mega museum. The MET is the mega museum, right ? You have like the Whitney, which is smaller but not by much, you know, and all these other places. And there's also the culturally specific institutions like the Jewish museum, the studio museum, which has been around since 69, 68 maybe, and a whole host of other institutions. So having that variety of scale has always made New York a really important and vital place. LA also has that history. It might not be as broadly understood. Whatever we can do to contribute to that and give as many opportunities as we can to artists that are working here or artists elsewhere t hat are interested in showing i n this city. We have this flexibility that our larger sisters and brothers in t he city might not have because we were just operating on a shorter timeline. I mean, I'm trying to shore up that timeline so it's not this wild turnaround constantly. But my fall show I've been working on for over two years, like two and a half years at this point. That's kind of the pace that we're working at. But I also just added something onto the schedule for spring, like last week. So we can operate between these longer term projects and then these shorter term projects that can be responsive or.

LPZ:

I think that's so important because a lot can go down as we've seen in two years. So to have shows that are on the books for longer you can cook with and sort of flesh out, but also have shows that kind of respond this moment in time and place I think is really wonderful that you're able to do.

Jamillah James:

I think the thing to keep in mind is that the contemporary is still something that's actively unfolding and it's history. It's still an actively, it's actively being written and produced . So having a show that you're preparing for for five, six years can become very untimely very quickly. And I don't want to be in a position where the work that it , the scholarship that I'm doing and putting so much effort into and time, blood, sweat and tears into, yeah . In the form of an exhibition has to play catch up with what the present is.

LPZ:

And then maybe stuffing that on later or stuffing that on in the didactics or the text around it of like, Oh, but this, you know, I can say.

Jamillah James:

it always feels clunky. You can always see it. Always, always. You can always read it when that has happened.

LPZ:

The Carla podcast is supported in part by the hammer museum this month. The hammer opens, Larry Pittman , declaration of independence organized by chief curator, Connie Butler. This exhibition is the most comprehensive retrospective to date of the prolific Los Angeles painter with nearly 80 paintings and 50 works on paper. Declaration of independence spans Pittman's entire career. Join the free opening celebration on Saturday September 28th from eight to 11:00 PM. [email protected] hammer.ucla .edu um, I want to talk about 1717 so 1717. Tell me about it. It's the ICA's...

Jamillah James:

It's out membership program and works in concert with a couple of other councils that we have, like the curators council, which is a council that I lead where we take out people monthly, almost like maybe 8 to 10 times a year where we go to galleries, museums, artist studios and it's like a set amount. Um, field work is another council that we have that's spearheaded by our director of learning and engagement where they focus on a topic of social concern or import and then they explore it through art. 1717 is our egalitarian version of a museum membership where it's a fixed amount that people pay to have access. People might think that museums are very exclusive, which they are—duh— obviously. And that's not a good thing. But, to democratize the model of development in a museum and how we reach out to people but also have people engage with the museum and support a museum and start thinking philanthropically is something that is really critically important. Really encouraging people to be philanthropic on whatever level that they feel comfortable with. $40 seems like a pretty okay amount , and the, the goal ultimately, which is a very lofty but incredible goal is to have the museum be 100 percent crowdfunded essentially by its members.

LPZ:

What I want to talk about, yes . Is this viable? which I think that you'd need like 65,000, ...

Jamillah James:

really intense high number. And you know, we're on our way. You know, you have a lot of people that have joined 1717, which is really incredible. And it's really, you know, it's the brainchild of our astute and wonderful deputy director and director of development , Samuel Vasquez, who came up with this idea because we as museum workers are really, exhausted by the idea that it has to be these mega-funders that support everything that we do. What about the people, the regular people like me, like I can't afford to pay, you know, thousands of dollars to support an arts organization as much as I would want to, you know, it's just not buyable . And how can we open up the walls of the museum and open up the process of philanthropy to support a museum to average people who are interested and are definitely interested in it in an experience and meeting artists and seeing new things and you know, being a part of, you know , a community of people, but in a way that's like fairly negligible and low commitment.

LPZ:

Yeah. Not to mention the sort of a nefarious side of museum donors and boards and yeah. Which I think is really interesting about this model is that, I mean, it sounds a bit lofty and I am really interested in it though because it's sort of inventing almost a whole new platform, a whole new system for understanding how what you're doing is in relationship to the money.

Jamillah James:

Yeah.

LPZ:

And the money again and again is where the art world gets dark really fast, really, really fast.

Jamillah James:

I don't like to comment on things that are going on in [ other] institutions , but we're in a real place of reckoning right now with not just how museums are funded and supported and who's doing that funding and supporting, but also the content of what's being shown at museums. I mean , we've seen it on several occasions in the last couple of years where the public is really holding institutions to account and institutions need to be flexible and accommodate that discourse if they're going to improve. The museum has an imperfect structure and there's so many places that it can expand and improve itself, from staffing decisions, to how it gets its money, to how inclusive its program is. There's so many different ways, and museums just need to work on not perpetuating the status quo and not just replicating the systems and structures of power that we see every day and are subject to and oppressed by every day , which is so often why the art world feels like a miniature version of the world at large with its built-in kind of complicated and really nefarious structures. It has the world, I mean it is the world . I mean it's not, it's not really a safe Haven. I mean we're all living in working through these conditions and the things that are happening that are much larger than any of us impact the work that we do every day. Or the way that we engage with each other or engage with artists or the artists that we're selecting to work with or you know, the donors that we engage with. We're in a microcosm within a grander scheme of things, but the boundaries are so tattered, so blurry. They're super blurry, they're super porous, and we can't just pretend that we're working on a vacuum anymore. And I think a lot of people woke up three years ago when t hey were like, 'Oh shit. Some real, serious consequences a re raining down on us right now.' It did open up a whole host of very important but very difficult conversations within our field that r eveal that none of us are immune to having to be held accountable for our decisions. I know people can get fatigued by trying to do the right thing, but if there's anyone that can really do the right thingl or try to do the right thing, I would hope it's people within the art world. I hope.

LPZ:

Why? What gives you that hope?

Jamillah James:

I mean just thinking about how many people and voices and sensibilities and subjectivities come together in this field. There's always room for improvement.... there is dire improvement needed in so many areas, but I hope because we are at our very basic, creative people. Maybe there's some creative solution-ing that can happen or thinking that can happen, to address the depressing things about being in this world.

LPZ:

Okay. So speaking of which depression, what can have depression? No, I let's turn it around. Let's turn it around. Yes. Because you have said this is a Jamilla quote that using a curatorial platform for advocacy and activism is a responsibility and an honor that you don't take lightly, which I thought was really lovely and kind of talking about this idea of a stewardship. And I just think it's amazing as sort of a citizen, a participant in the art world to hear someone use responsibility and community and museum like in the same sentence.

Jamillah James:

And I said that maybe three years ago, two years ago, and my attitude about it hasn't changed . Especially with all the things that have transpired in that time since I gave that quote. I think it's an imperative: we're citizens first—curators, writers, artists, whatever second— and just having a mindfulness and wanting to think about the future and what this world will look like after all of us are like dead and gone. Not to be like morbid about it, but what is the legacy that we want to have? What is the history that we want to have? What is it that we want people that succeed us to like think about the work that we've done?

LPZ:

Right.

Jamillah James:

I'm hoping that for most of us it's not just going to be a bunch of navel gazing, whatever, that's not thinking about how to improve the world or how to answer to the important societal questions or at the very least just being generous in the information and knowledge that we're conferring. That's where varying expertise and like how we can mentor and support people that are gonna come after us.

LPZ:

But at the same time you're using words like scholarship and which it could be interpreted a few ways, but often goes towards academia, which goes towards a sort of insular-looking situation. So can you talk about how scholarship and what you're talking about can kind of be bridged?

Jamillah James:

I think scholarship is for anybody . I have a very tortured relationship with academia and not feeling that that was a place or a space for me to work in either. And I think sometimes about going back and getting my PhD and I'm just like, Ugh , you know, it's not, I just want to be to other people and not just talking to like a small set of people that share my concern . I mean maybe knowledge production is a better way of talking about or phrasing that idea of education, I guess is another way I can think of curating as a form of education– explaining or like showcasing a different way of thinking as produced by an artist.

LPZ:

Right.

Jamillah James:

And is part of scholarship also maybe has, it's historicizing too . So making a space for that artist within deeply specific canon. Right. Or you know, doing as much as you can to subvert the cannon that exists. You know, that's, I mean I think that's maybe where I used scholarship the most is talking about how to historicize the practices of the artists that I care the most about who I think are offering something that might be under seen or under recognized or if they are part of a community or a group that's under recognized or upward underrepresented and how to, you know, poke holes in the Canon that exists. So is that through writing alone? No. Is that through exhibition making an alone no, it's this composite of all of these different things so that you can learn different publics , different people into thinking about that artists in their work.

LPZ:

Yeah. Yeah. I've worked a bit in museum education and giving tours and gallery guides and things like that and uh, people are intimidated. They're really intimidated. I mean, the museum, as you said, is something that the public knows about in theory and you know, it's talked about it on the radio or TV, like people kind of know what a museum is and go to them. But , um , still I think the idea that that is sort of uninitiated person could come into an art museum and have an open thought about a piece of work that's their own and not something that's handed to them and that they're free to have that interpretation is not what people think. So I'm curious how you , um, maybe kind of prompt that at the ICA.

Jamillah James:

Um , you know, I mean, something that is important to me is making sure that people feel welcome at the museum because yeah, I mean the museum has a lot of baggage. It has a lot of associations with privilege and exclusivity. I know this from a personal place as being a person who never felt that comfortable going to museums or couldn't afford to go to museums. Museums are hard, not everyone wants to go to one as much as you want them to. But there's the cost factor. I mean there's museums that charge $25, and that's like a meal, that's a whole lot of things to a lot of people and it might not necessarily be a priority to go to a museum. We're free at the ICA, which is really important. We have bilingual didactics, which is important to speak to the vastness of the audience that we hopefully serve. When we have our public events we're very open and free. We have this happy hour that we do once a month where we just chilling , talking about art in very plain terms. We write to a certain reading level with our didactics because, I mean, honestly, I don't wanna read a bunch of foolishness and blather when I go to museums. Like I hate reading didactics at museums. Like I'm not gonna drag anyone, but sometimes it's really tedious and it doesn't need to be. There's very direct ways that you can talk to people without talking over them or talking down to them. A nd the same applies for art writing: make it accessible, make it readable. Think about the people that are in your life who might have a fledgling interest in art but feel nervous about it, feel put off by it. You have this certain idea or image in your mind of people that go to museums, like the super T ony wealthy people that have fantastic Ivy league educations and that's not the world that I w ant t o work in. I w ant t o work in a world where I can talk to a colleague about a show in the same language that I talk to anyone else in my life w ho's not an active participant in this field. Or like how to talk to kids about art and not have like contempt for that, you know, having to like simplify the idea or modify it so that you're able to talk to like a child or a teenager about it.

LPZ:

Kids are the best too . They always get it. They just, they're so perceptive and with art in, in like the most intuitive ways that totally I think undermine any kind of like academic discourse because they just see through it.

Jamillah James:

Yeah. I mean it's fun talking to kids about art. I mean it's also scary or just like, Oh Lord and like, yeah , you know, just like trying to correct yourself so that you're talking in a way that's like really plain but like also not condescending cause kids are extremely smart. They can be extremely perceptive and very smart and yeah, I mean you can also learn from them and just like having that openness to from your publics I think is something that's often missing. Like in how our colleagues might think about this field like that you can't learn anything from a public that you're the one that's teaching and yeah. Yeah. I mean it's, it's what the work that I were doing as curators is educational, but you always learn something from a public, be it from feedback or a tweet or just like a comment card or something. Sure. Something that you might be missing or not seeing. I'm always like nosing around the museum during public hours, like nosing around the galleries and listening to what people are saying about the show, you know, or when I give tours like the questions or the perceptions that you get from guests... There's always something surprising that comes up or like a connection that you didn't think of maybe.

LPZ:

Right. And there's something so freeing to that I think. Yeah . Like unlocking that for other people but also engaging in the conversation. I mean I think that's what drew us all to art is feeling like we could participate in it and uh, yeah, giving that to people that feel so distanced from the art world I think is really exciting. I asked you earlier about gatekeepers and like how you felt with gatekeepers and now you kind of ROI, like speaking of [inaudible] , I mean I know it's a weird word, but there are so many hierarchies in the art world and the curator at the contemporary art museum is a pretty esteemed position. And I'm just curious like how , if you can speak to those hierarchies, like are they bullshit, are they important? What can you tell young artists like w it's because it's a very daunting hierarchy for a lot of people.

Jamillah James:

You know, I'm glad that there are gatekeepers. I've learned a lot from the gatekeepers and I've worked with over time and I still rely quite heavily on their expertise and their support and their mentorship. I like to keep a low profile. I know that sounds like total and utter BS, but I like to do my work and mind my business. But at the same time I like to be available to particularly younger people who are trying to figure this all out. So if it's mentoring an intern as best I can, or doing visiting critic work, yeah. That's a big part of my life. If I can come with some with my expertise and do a studio visit with a student and have a very frank conversation with them about what they're doing and introduce other ideas or other artists for them to look at or think about, that's the fun thing for me, to impart what is allegedly my expertise, just to help them navigate the world, because it's hard out here.

LPZ:

Totally.

Jamillah James:

And I love these conversations because we're all people, we're all learning, we're all growing, we're all human.

LPZ:

right. And I feel the same way. Like, I guess I have expertise in publications now, but it's very self taught. Like I , you know, you find your way through it and I think a lot of people kind of perceive these fields as being inaccessible or closed off.

Jamillah James:

I mean, maybe for some of my colleagues it is that way. They don't make themselves available, or they just don't have time. I get it. It happens. I wish when I was younger that I had people that wanted to be generous and reach out and it took a long time to get to the point where I had those people in my life who were really committed to mentorship and wanting to help the next generation of people come up. I know . It's like, why not?

LPZ:

I love it.

Jamillah James:

I'm not going to be around forever, you know? So why not be generous and engage on as many levels as you can.

LPZ:

I'm curious to talk about in relation to that , uh, about professional practice because I think that's something that you talk about as well. Or have done lectures or talk with students about. Yeah. And I have the experience kind of from the artist side of things. I have an MFA in sculpture. It wasn't talked about, like artists kind of get plopped down and flounder a bit and it's very much learned on the fly, how to adapt. So what's your take on that and how do you feel like you're engaged in sort of, yeah, I guess , um , spreading the message of professional practice.

Jamillah James:

I feel like it's a missed opportunity when the focus for artists that are in the studio program when it's just on production. There are other things and form the career, like having a good handle on history a nd theory and what's actually happening right now in the world. Like going o ut and seeing things. But a lso o ther side of it is how do you manage yourself? How do you manage y our practice? If you're going to be a studio a rtists, how do you organize yourself so that y ou can be maximally effective or as successful as one can be. And simple things like making a website that doesn't have like 5,000 things on it, or you know how to organize your CV, or how to write an a rtist's statement that's not a poem, or write something that like is useful to a person like me who's wanting to provide opportunities f or younger artists, but you go t t o p ut in the work and not just wait for someone to tell you years down the line... whatever th e y oung artists can do now, so that they're prepared for being in the real world, which is regrettably competitive and... Just knowing how to be a professional, you know, what does that mean? Artists sometimes don't think of what they do as a profession, which is a shame. Because we've been conditioned in that ways make money. There's a salary, there's a routine. And it's a gamble kno w fo r artists. It's a gamble for curators. It's a gamble for anyone that's an arts or cul tural wo rker to do this bec ause no ne of it is really well-paying. You know, unless you're at a certain point in your career or you get a great break or you have a great dealer or whatever. But whatever responsibility that an artist can take in order to establish the frame for how they're going to operate as an artist... It's as si mple things like being able to be found or being comfortable enough to forge relationships with fellow artists and not just like toiling away in your studio constantly without any conversation. But like going out and seeing shows, going out and like doing studio visits with fellow artists. You can start that at the school level, or if you're not going to school, which is totally fine and totally valid too . J ust trying to make a community and a context around your work. Just getting yourself prepared to take care of your own shit if you don't have a gallery or something. Like, you know how to manage your own affairs and not just wait for, the opportunity, which, you know, it's hard out here. Not everyone's going to h a ve that, and just being prepared for that reality.

LPZ:

Yeah. Well, yeah and just like knowing business practices. I mean, that's another thing. I mean like, sure . You know, how to do your taxes. I told Jamila earlier, I haven't done mine yet.

Jamillah James:

Yeah. I mean it's , taxes are a dry yeah. You know, there's so much that you can write off. Yeah. Or just knowing maybe what not to do, which is like going into a gallery with your portfolio. That's just not a good idea.

LPZ:

Yeah. So this leads me sort of into another question just about, again, money, but sort of the commercial art world, the gallery art world, and sort of how do you see that in relationship with what you are doing as a curator and because they seem to like they're all in the same ecosystem, but they're almost kind of, I dunno, parallel strands in a way.

Jamillah James:

I deal with galleries a lot depending on the artists that I'm working with you and of course, giving a young artist a show at the ICA will inevitably affect their career with a gallery, right? And you hope that they recognize. But I know there's intersection. I t ry to as best I can, try to keep, u h, this is k inda tricky. This is a bit tricky territory because the ways and means of business between museums and galleries have become increasingly complex over the years. I'm happy to work with galleries. I don't want content dictated in any way, which is not, it doesn't happen, but it's always something to be concerned about. AndI'm not interested really in the market side of things. I don't really care about an artist's market performance. If they sell something that they've made for a show that I've done great, good for them. I get nothing out of it. I'm not looking for anything out of it and I c an care less, but I want them to be successful. Whatever that means. And success is not just monetary, it's a whole host of things. And the thing that I'm invested in in terms of an artist's success is longevity, and what an exhibition at an institution can do for an artist's career. It can be transformational. It can also be damaging. H oping n othing I've ever worked on is damaging, but m ore often than not, it's transformational. So transformative and if it affords economic success and stability, Cool. Great. Yeah, before it. Love to see a love to see it. But it's not something I'm invested in. Museums are in the business of helping to support the formation or production of art history. The institutional show is a serious thing and it's a serious part of an artist's career. Galleries will always be around supporting artists in a very different way that museums do. I try to keep things separate as much as humanly possible.

LPZ:

Right. That's an interesting perspective because they see, I mean, yeah, they're so connected, but I totally understand why like that split makes sense as well. I mean, what, and it's sort of like church and state or something and ideal with the same with advertisers in the magazine and our content and that, I mean it's, it's touchy.

Jamillah James:

What I don't want to do is just work with a gallery just because they might be able to support production or something. I'm going through the artists first. I don't reach out to artists to galleries if I can help it. Like if I absolutely cannot get in touch with an artist, then I'll reach out to a gallery and be like, 'Hey, could you put them in touch with me? Cause I'm interested in talking to them more.] Um, as much as I can limit kind of how much mediation, yeah. How much in the mix of dealer is with my conversations with artists. I feel like I can't get the true and deep work that I want to get done with an artist if a dealer is always CC'd. And it's no, just respect to my peers in the commercial field. But it's a very important relationship that an artist has with a curator and it's not something that should be taken for granted and it's not something that's guaranteed to happen again. So in whatever ways an artist can be afforded the latitude to have frank, deep conversations with a curator in the interest of making an exhibition without interference from the gallery is really where I want to be. 9.5 times out of 10, you know, a gallery will just come in when you need help with loan agreements, shipping and that kind of stuff. Or getting inventories or research and that's great. I have it extremely helpful. But I'm in this because I love doing this work and I mean please, like curators aren't well compensated, so it's not like I'm like living a fabulous lifestyle. I get to travel the world and that's awesome, you know, for this one particular project. But, you know, I'm just trying to do this work and get b y feed myself, c lothe myself, house myself. And when an artist has a successful show and they sell out a show at their commercial gallery that does nothing for me. So I'm never thinking about it in that way. It's some different thing them.

LPZ:

Yeah. And so support you're showing for those artists that they might maintain. And like you said, the longevity, you're , you're cultivating community in that way and sort of , uh, maybe, I don't know if you think about like this, but like ensuring that the artists you care about are going be around for a while .

Jamillah James:

Yeah. That's , that's the thing that's left and right. People are dropping out. It's tough. This world is really hard and like galleries are fickle. People change up their rosters all the time or they neglect artists or, they're not giving the shows or the visibility or whatnot . And however I can come in and support an artist and do a show, that's the kind of engagement that I like. Like I'm not, you know, dealers operate in a very different way. They've got different concerns than what I have as a curator. I like forming relationships. I like making shows and contributing to the discourse around an artist. And I hope that I continue to have a relationship with the artist after our show is up and gone, you know? And that's worked out and it's been good, because they become a part of my life and I hope that I become a part of theirs through working with them on an extensive or intensive project. Right. So it's less of a transactional relationship. I can, I give advice to artists. I hang out with artists in a social way, if they're working on a show and they need information, like my research that's been done, like they can count on all that stuff. Oh, that's great. You know ? But in terms of like a monetary investment beyond like commissioning or supporting the production of work, I don't have a stake in that way. I have a stake in a completely different part of the artist's career.

LPZ:

Yeah. You have a show coming up this month. Nayland Blake, and this is at one of those shows you said you'd been working on for some time. Yeah. Yeah. So tell us what we can expect.

Jamillah James:

We are staging a really monumental survey of the artist, educator, curator, writer, adorable, adorable human Nayland Blake who has been a really important artists to me for a number of years and is one of the artists that I reached out to when I got to the ICA about doing a show with, because they haven't had a solo institutional show in Los Angeles. They have had a couple of surveys, not like exhaustive or historical necessarily. I mean more Riley did behavior, which is really important show the Tang did a great show in 2003. Yerba Buena did a show of the new and recent work a couple of years ago . Um, but this show is distinct in that it's looking at nail Lynn's work from when they were a student at Cal arts to when they were in San Francisco before eventually returning to New York and kind of highlighting that period of time where they were in California, but also looking at, you know, the different things that have in a really informed Nayland's practice. So the question of duality being a person that lives between, you know, different identities or different ideas, so you know, nail and is biracial, which is oddly something about people. A lot of people don't know. I didn't know that actually. So they're African American and white. Um, they're also queer. They're also, you know , um, gender nonconforming, gender non binary , binary , um, you know, and they also wear all these different hats, you know, in terms of being an artist and a curator and educator writer and you know, the experience of living between worlds and kind of the space of play. And that in play is like the major thematic in the show. It's been a research interest for Neylan , but it's also been so much a part of the practice. So thinking about intimacy, your relationships, transactions , um, you know, in the very early work, the , the work with the steel and the leather, the restraints, the kits, the devices, all those things. And then moving into like toys and puppets and those like acting as an avatar for the art , for the artist, you know, engaged in kind of funny or absurd situations or confrontations and how the presence of the toys kind of soften the difficulties that they're revealing. And then, you know, moving into, you know , this other space where there's fantasy and fairytale costuming, dress up, all those things that kind of come together into this really complex image of who the artist is and what their concerns are. Um, it's a show that I've been really so excited to have open. I can't believe it's actually happening and a male and is just such a dream to work with in such a deserving and important artists and really happy that we're the institution that gets to do this show because people love this work and haven't seen a lot of it, you know, in math . So I'm glad that we're doing that. We're doing a publication, you know, we're doing a whole suite of events around the show, so it's a big deal for us as an institution. It's a big deal for me as a curator. It's the largest show that I've organized. Wow. There'll be about a hundred objects in the show notes and sculpture, video and drawings. There'll be about 50 drawings in the show. So half of the show being drawing is a big deal. Yeah , it's amazing. And yeah, I mean, and it's a big deal for Nalen to um, who's been just such a wonderful partner. It's great in this beautiful, well we look forward to it. It's exciting. It's gotta be cool. Gonna be here. No wrong holes. 30 years of nail and Blake, I love that title. It's such a good title for that one. Yeah . Neylan you're amazing. Always, always. Oh Jamila , thank you so much. It's been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much. This has been a blast. [inaudible]

LPZ:

the Carlo podcast is produced by contemporary art review Los Angeles and meet Lindsey Preston's assets. Joel P, West composer theme music. The podcast is available on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts . We archive and post every episode on our [email protected] where we also have weekly reviews of Los Angeles exhibitions. Carla is a print magazine in addition to this podcast and issue 17 is now in circulation and a hundred art spaces in Los Angeles. You can also order a copy of the issue or a one year subscription to the magazine in our online store. You can actually use the offer code podcast to get free shipping on your order, so head to shop dot contemporary art review.la to order now, new episodes of the pro podcast posts every month, and you can follow us on [email protected] for updates and also DMS. If you have any questions about the art world that you'd like us to answer on future episodes of the pot. Finally, if you're a regular listener of this podcast, consider rating or leaving us a comment on iTunes. It really helps other people find this podcast. Thank you so much for listening, listening,

Speaker 3:

and we'll see you next month.