The Carla Podcast

Episode 9: Bettina Korek, Hamza Walker, Sam Parker, Catherine Wagley

December 06, 2018 Contemporary Art Review Los Angeles
The Carla Podcast
Episode 9: Bettina Korek, Hamza Walker, Sam Parker, Catherine Wagley
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Hosted by Lindsay Preston Zappas

Writer’s Room:

Lindsay is joined by Carla contributor, Catherine Wagley to discuss her article from Carla Issue 14 called “Celeste Dupuy-Spencer And Figurative Religion,” which discusses Dupuy-Spencer’s recent show The Chiefest of Ten Thousand at Nino Mier Gallery. We talk about figurative art in Christianity, the subjectivity of figuration, and how Dupuy-Spencer straddles these lines within her work. 

L.A. at Large

Lindsay is joined by Frieze L.A.’s executive director Bettina Korek, and the Talks and Music curator Hamza Walker. Here, we discuss what to expect from the upcoming art fair, why it’s coming to L.A., and ways they hope the fair engages the art community in Los Angeles. 

Dear Carla:

Lindsay continues the conversation with Sam Parker (Parker Gallery) to answer a listener submitted question about how to price an artwork. 



Speaker 1:

Da da da da.

Speaker 2:

Hello and welcome to the Carla podcast. My name is Lindsay Prestons apice and I'm the founder and editor in chief of Contemporary Art Review Los Angeles. Carla is a quarterly magazine online art journal and podcast committed to being an active source for critical dialogue surrounding Ellies arts community. First up this episode in the writers room I talked to Karla contributing editor Katherine Wagler. We discuss her recent article in Carly Issue 14 called Celeste Dupee Spencer and figurative religion. We talk about conservative Christians and their penchant towards figurative art the subjectivity of figuration and Spenser's work is mixed up in all of this. Since there's a story there and there are parts if you're going to twist it you're definitely doing it to.

Speaker 3:

JACKSON It's not because it's a vague abstraction it's because you're projecting a narrative onto it and you want it to communicate.

Speaker 2:

Next on at large we get a sneak peek into the upcoming art fair freeze Los Angeles this February freeze will be in L.A. for the first time I speak to director Bettina Korek and the talks and music programmer Humza Walker about what to expect from the fair why the fair chose to open up shop in L.A. and told they hope the fair engages the art community within Los Angeles.

Speaker 4:

I have a close friend who grew up in Hollywood and he always says the difference between Hollywood and the art world is they don't try to make their audience feel stupid. Think about that a lot. And you know I think we we all need to be a little bit. More candid with ourselves about what does it mean to share information about an artist and our work in a meaningful way that doesn't feel like it's in this sort of.

Speaker 5:

Artspeak trouble. And finally on dear Carla I call up Sam Parker of Parker gallery to answer listener submitted question about how to price your artwork. This is the packed episode so stay with us.

Speaker 6:

The Carwell podcast is supported in part by the Pomona College Museum of Art in Claremont California. Present to you two new exhibitions for spring 2019. Courtney Leonard intermodal a new installation by shammy corporation multimedia artist Courtney Leonard and stories selections from the permanent collection featuring works by Andrea Bowers Alan D'Souza Charles Haynes Wendy Redstart and more exhibitions will be on view starting January 22nd. Exhibitions and events are free and open to the public. For more information visit W. W. W. Pomona dot edu.

Speaker 7:

Backslash museum.

Speaker 8:

Welcome to the writers room painter Celeste Dupee Spencer often depicts the white conservative American experience in her work in her newest issue 14 of Carla Catherine Wagler K'nex Dupee Spenser's work to larger ideas about how figurative art is revered among conservative Christians and the political right. You can find a link to the article in episode description in this conversation Katherine expands on her article and discusses how figuration is mixed up in politics and conservative religion and how do Spencer plays with these topics. We discuss other figurative painters like Jordan Steele and Henry Taylor and other artists that embed figuration with pointed sociopolitical meaning. Here's Catherine to explain the premise of her article Celeste Dupee Spencer and figurative religion.

Speaker 9:

So the show that I'm writing about by Celeste Spencer was called the chiefest of 10000 and it was that Nina Meyer gallery and she deals with religion in her paintings and she references evangelical Christianity in America in these ways that I was really compelled by. But then I ended up going on like I mean such a minuscule amount of my rabbit holes are reflected in the published article. I would just I was researching I was listening to Franklin Graham. He's the son of the famous evangelical preacher Billy Graham and he's been a supporter of Trump and I would listen to all that.

Speaker 10:

I transcribed some of his interviews.

Speaker 9:

I landed on this party and description of a party. It's at the Westin in Charlotte and it's hosted by the Council for National Policy which is a Christian organization. Right. Republican. And it was founded in the 80s I believe partly by this oil era. Colin Davis who is a character in and of itself. And all these people gathered to celebrate they were there when they gathered to meet. Then once the nomination was pushed through they were celebrating. And yeah and I yeah I think I wanted to frame the article somehow in this moment in which there is there there's a presence of evangelicalism in politics that we're feeling that way maybe maybe it's been there but we haven't felt it and acknowledged it as much as we're coming right now. Yeah sure.

Speaker 11:

And yet so you describe the conservative Christians have kind of always been partial to a figurative work and you give some examples for that but particularly since sort of like 80s and 90s and the culture wars and you say that figure ations recognizable content with seemingly more honest than that esoteric abstraction and conceptualism happening at the time. But why else do you think Christians align with figuration.

Speaker 9:

Well and I don't think this is like a all through history sort of thing. I think it's important I think in the article I talk mostly about post 70s 80s but I think there's there's a thing about figurative art that it just feels familiar because it's it's people so you recognize them you know what's happening in the scene and it doesn't feel elitist in the way that some abstraction can. And also I was reading this guy named Francis Shaffer that says that he was he was also an evangelical philosopher who wrote a lot of books including one called Art in the Bible that I happen to have in myself and this was kind of a chance to sit down and think about it again. He writes about what art can do. It's so important for Christians is that it can show the mannish ness of man and I love that quote a lot of the artists he cites are more figurative artists like he's into Giacometti. GIACOMETTI is on the cover.

Speaker 11:

Interesting. Yeah. OK so what does that mean. The mannish ness of man. Because they can be fleshy and like you can show how a person really looks and sort of in contrast and was sort of like heavenly bodies or kind of showing that the flashes the uglier side of the flesh are more or less the size of the flesh.

Speaker 9:

Yeah I think you'd think he could be a way to understand our humanness and that I could be really helpful for Christians and also Christians. He has this argument that Christians are more because they understand where we came from and they understand God and they understand that they should even be more attuned to arts content.

Speaker 12:

They should be able to look at it and see the humanity in a different way because they understand that they understand they know like Children of God.

Speaker 13:

Yeah I was thinking to when I was rereading your article today about religious depictions about you know Renaissance paintings and just old religious paintings of you know Mother Mary and Jesus and and figuration being the way that those stories are told and maybe that's part of why Christian specifically or maybe slightly more comfortable with figuration and you have those like stained glass narratives in church windows.

Speaker 9:

I get so much out of the way the design or the or the narrative art narrative art is part of the way Christianity has been re presented you from a young age if you grew up in the church totally break even the right like illustrations of Noah's Ark and like yeah like the way it's presented to children or like that child that part of children's job and maybe you're on the holidays is to make is to make a little diorama as a Bible stories or Shoresh are sure to engage in narrative art in that way.

Speaker 11:

Well not to mention the crucifix. So that's like the you know craziest version of figuration that people hang in their houses wear on their necks like. So that becomes a sort of comfortable image to look at. And then so you talk about figuration in art kind of lining up with the rise of the political right in politics.

Speaker 12:

Do you and I don't know how airtight this argument because I say it anyway. Yeah.

Speaker 9:

I was just I was just thinking OK like what did I was looking at Eric Fishell and David Soulé and like those figures and Robert Longo and the 80s and. Yeah. And then I was looking at the figuration that's happening right now and thinking about Trump and also thinking about George Bush as a figurative painter and thinking about the way politicians relate relate to art and the way they promote it. Right. And Obama also choosing a more like kindie Wiley who is not totally a figurative painter but has this more abstract tendency or a tendency toward these flights of fantasy that aren't based in reality. To do his portrait. Yeah. Yeah I don't know. Liberalism were open to abstraction. Alma Thomas that amazing Alma Thomas painting he put in the White House. But this is what this is like. This narrative like I could certainly find things to support is that I didn't feel like I was speaking totally out of left field but I also didn't research it to the extent that I would have had to I think to write it. Academic article really. Sure. Well there's Karla you.

Speaker 11:

Know but I think it's a really interesting thought you know to pick up on and thinking about figuration through politics and how well you get to a point.

Speaker 9:

I mean if you look at Soviet art like there are moments where anything that's too experimental begins to feel threatening. Got it. Yeah things that are that make sense that look that illustrate a certain narrative that we all understand is safe and safe even in the eyes of the state.

Speaker 13:

So even you know you talk about certain artists who use figuration like Henry Taylor and Jordan Castille and these people who are using figuration in a very kind of pointed political way in a kind of left political way. But even still do you feel it's like the language that the conservatives understand even though it's controversial or maybe subversive.

Speaker 9:

It's I feel like the controversy isn't the form anymore. It's not controversial in it's form. You're not going to be ready to deploy Spencer for painting people. You might be mad at what shirr paintings seem to suggest about people whereas I think you could just think that you could criticize you know you criticize Chris Ofili for using the wrong kind of material for depicting the Virgin Mary. Right. Which with Henry Taylor and Jordan Castillo and Celeste. It's a different conversation.

Speaker 10:

It's a pain. It's all in the family and that's stylistic.

Speaker 9:

All of them have styles that are recognizably their own but they also have these long lineages that you can tie them to. Yeah.

Speaker 11:

And you were talking I think you and I have talked about this before on our podcast episode but about non art world or is kind of entering into work and kind of closed off nature of the art world and how it can be more democratic. But

Speaker 13:

figuration is one way I think you write about that in the article how even non art world leaders can kind of approach a figurative painting and kind of what we said earlier have some kind of entry point despite the content even if they don't necessarily agree with what the painting is depicting they're like oh it's a body.

Speaker 9:

And that gives an artist a different kind of I mean then an artist is working with a different set of tools. Yeah they can invite into a conversation. People from different positions. I feel like I could have taken certain family members of mine who have no orientation or no don't participate in the art world at all. And to her show and they would have gotten it. They would have what you would have had a conversation about story or about them or about skill to be accessible to people which is really interesting. Yeah yeah. If you can totally understand the skill it took to make something that in a way makes it more accessible even the highly skilled artists that will take years of training you'll get it's really hard to paint that.

Speaker 10:

Yeah yeah yeah. Or I feel like a really tight like pencil drawing. And

Speaker 13:

you know because it's one pencil those used to make. But then the Labor and the skill involved is like so mind blowing and it's immediately discernible.

Speaker 9:

No matter how little background. Yeah. Art history you get it that's hard.

Speaker 11:

Yeah all well to change a little. So Celeste do Spenser's work you talk webshop Meyer. And I'm curious how it kind of plays into all the things we're talking about. We're talking about accessibility we're talking about the political right and Christian's relationship with figuration Yeah where does her work. Kind of a line in that conversation. Well I think that.

Speaker 9:

Maybe it's not a question of aligning as much as it's networking. Like I think that's why I kind of got excited about it. I liked the painting that I have for a while and I've seen them in a lot of different contexts and I liked the way she treats the body the human body and I think there's a looseness and yet a focus to her narratives. But Wahi into this show it brought together a web of things that I was really interested in and it seemed like it was writing about it was partly a process of figuring out how to negotiate that web or how to bring these things together. And I liked the. I mean there's there's reference to a pretty dramatic religious experience is there is this painting of exorcism of an exorcism happening in a seemingly mega church. It's very hot and the bodies are all a little awkward. Like there's men in suspenders with their suit jackets off and there's a lady who looks like she's wearing like a nice two piece skirt suit. And then those people in baseball caps I believe. And I think when I started this thing here at least it's partly why I opened with that narrative because I wanted to talk about some of these weird figures who become leaders in the spiritual movement. And this guy Colin Davis became really interesting to me because he was an oil heir who'd been acquitted first of killing his wife's lover and his stepdaughter and then later of hiring a hitman to kill his wife and the divorce judge who was handling their separation in saying and and then after all of this he gets off for all of it and then he finds Jesus and then he becomes this. Really committed evangelical but he has a lot of my SO and up supporting all these movements and it becomes really central. And I think that's what's partly what's interesting about Christianity too is that it's a place where you pull in a lot of different characters and you become unified in this belief in Jesus and in some ways it's supposed to be I guess in the most ideal version of the melting pot like a place where we're different doesn't matter anymore because we're all washed by the blood of Jesus. And I thought Celeste's DePoy Spenser's paintings did a good job of portraying that melting pot as kind of sinister but still kind of uplifting and still like yeah like all these things huh.

Speaker 11:

Yeah you.

Speaker 13:

You brought in a vise quote from a writer that wrote about her work that she her work is like an inventory of white experience which now has kind of a new urgency under Trump.

Speaker 9:

Yeah that was an essay by Aruna de Souza who is also writing I think in that article or a subsequent article about Jordan Castillos work. And if it's true like solice to put Spencer before this show she's done some paintings of people who seem kind of blue collar in rougher backstreets and alleys on pickup trucks or are done drawings of people at Trump rallies with Trump hats Trump shirts and she's also done these paintings that really seemed to me to be of silver like hipsters or that like a kind of a privileged white man. Right. Disenfranchised whiteness privilege whiteness Yeah.

Speaker 11:

She has one painting that you talk about in your article called Love me love me love me. I'm a liberal. And it's just this frantic woman like writing letters and she has a mom you know all this stuff around her like it's PR Ma and like you can just feel the sort of yeah NPR coverage of New York Times like falling off of her. She's writing these letters and just being outraged and her liberalism right. Yeah she's sort of exposing the spectrum of whiteness right. But but her work I feel like has a remove to these things too.

Speaker 9:

Yeah maybe that shows that it's kind of an observer or there's a way in which she's almost caricaturing but it feels also empathetic like even when she's when she's pillaring different identities.

Speaker 14:

Yeah it doesn't feel Krule entirely right because you could argue that certain depictions of hers are like in poor taste or biased or you know kind of reflecting a certain demographic and a really negative way that she doesn't necessarily understand things like this but how is she avoiding that. Do you think.

Speaker 9:

You know I I'm not totally sure if she does avoid it completely but I do. But I think in my reading of her work it feels like there's a way in which her explicitness especially in those paintings where there's actual text that kind of Scituate's what's happening like the Trump paintings where you can see from the way she's kind of appropriated and adjusted slogans on posters and t shirts. You can tell her political situation and I argued this a little bit in the piece and I think I believe it that wearing your politics on your sleeve aligns with this accessibility thing that you're not trying to trick anybody. You're saying this is where I'm coming from and I'm still trying to understand these things in this way. Yeah and maybe that's what it is. There's a curiosity or an engagement that feels deep enough that you kind of believe that she actually isn't just dismissing. Yeah people who support these ideologies that she is an artist clearly is critical of. Right. And in this current show that she has of 10000 at my art gallery I feel like the paintings of religious moments were really tender and maybe not tender in terms of their attitude as much as in terms of their formality the way in which he tended to detail within the painting within the painting as a painter her painting.

Speaker 11:

Tenderness yeah the tenderness of her own. And like candling of her. Sure sure sure. Let's talk about this one painting. I think we described it earlier a little bit as this baptism happening and you see the baptism kind of from the waist up and the participants the person being baptized is in water from the waist down and then underneath the waist there's this whole kind of swarm of horses and almost like ghoulish things happening. There's kind of this tangle of animals and the color palette and that lower half is also a lot darker. Tell us about that.

Speaker 9:

Well you also have which is my favorite part. There's a kind of like you're standing above the figure who's about to be baptized. You can't see his face above water his face is cut off by the top of the painting but it's reflected in the water and it's like looks like a cartoon puppet like puppet monsters a chocolate chip cookie.

Speaker 10:

Yeah.

Speaker 11:

So these little touches where you can see her being critical but it's a bit kind of hidden.

Speaker 12:

Yeah.

Speaker 15:

And also the criticism in this is so vast that he could also be you could even see it as a biblical scene like the baptism the piece of optimism of the Baptism being juxtaposed with something lifted from the Book of Revelation or you could see it as this sort of dark underbelly narrative where she's showing us messy almost hellish landscape scrambling animals.

Speaker 11:

Right. Right. And I think through that she kind of she swims like you're not totally sure I was actually thinking about her work almost like a documentary photographer in a way like she's choosing where her camera is pointing. Like she's choosing the lens. But they're kind of real events. She's not really being super hyperbolic although she's choosing scenes that seem hyper boring like they seem kind of exaggerated. But as far as I know a lot of her imagery is taken from life and taken from reality.

Speaker 9:

This baptism teen scene above water below water it's a different story but above water it's pretty believable. Yeah right. They're wearing these shirts the two figures who are baptizing this whoever they are baptizing you could be a woman or man or they're wearing shirts that say Oasis and there's a big megachurch in L.A. and I don't know if it's exactly the same. It's also called the Oasis. Donna Summer was a founding member and they were the group who like advocated for Jesus to have a walk a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame.

Speaker 11:

And they paid for it right. They liked the money and bought Jesus. So it's got to happen. He's he's a star. Right. So going back to Celestes work and kind of straddling this line kind of documenting these things could kind of categorically go into politics some political issues but she somehow does it with the somewhat biased lens. But then you compare it to other kind of contemporary figurative art is Henry Taylor joining cast steel. You mentioned some others who are being a bit more overt about their politics in their paintings.

Speaker 9:

Yeah I do. Celeste is being overt too. I just think that the framing is more open ended and so was Henry Taylor and Jordan Castillos there's just a straightforwardness about where they stand. And often they do this through text which was interesting to me. Yeah.

Speaker 8:

So for example like in Jordan Steele's painting that you reference the lost tribe. So there's like a specific book that this figure is reading and that kind of enters.

Speaker 9:

But Celeste is doing that to write with her love me love me I'm a liberal like there's text there's cues that kind of point us to where she's yeah there was this other painting it's actually and I believe it's in Helen Molesworth many for Archbishop Moka right now called Glassman Michael and it's a man selling bases and platters on the street and the graffiti behind him says Harlem not for sale fight back. It's like that feels like just you know it's literally an anti gentrification message writing and that's joining Casti. Yes yes. But the man is still you know the situation of the man is still open to our interpretation. So there's that that back and forth where there's the political situation or a political situation is being named literally by the painting through the text that she writes. Right. But you could argue there's some openness to interpretation and how you see this man playing into that. Like is he getting forced out of the neighborhood. Is he participating in alternative economy is he right. Homeless does he own a lock that he can never buy now.

Speaker 11:

You know I don't know. Right. Right. So it has a similar kind of documentary aspect about it. The piece by Henry Taylor called The Times ain't changing fast enough where it's a depiction of Leno castle being shot right. And you kind of see this police arm with a gun coming into the car kind of to the side of the frame. But again you know it's a document of something that happened in the world but you can't really say that's an unbiased painting.

Speaker 9:

But I'll see if he titles it right away that shows are just as biased and the titles all caps if I'm not mistaken. Datapoint race has a certain urgency to it. But he says it is. I guess you could misread it but he's trying to give you the framework through which he's painting it.

Speaker 8:

Well OK so what about. So these artists were saying they're almost documenting events you know they're leaving the work somewhat open ended.

Speaker 13:

But there is a slight challenge there because these pictures could be subjective like people can read differently into them.

Speaker 9:

Yeah which maybe is fine in certain contexts but I think that what was exciting to me about this recent show is that the way she combined other imagery with this imagery that referenced religion sort of put this twist on it that was really compelling which is that she has some paintings of her own community. This one that's her and her friends up in a lot with all their mother is just a strong collection of these independent bodies. And then there's this other painting that's huge from which the show takes its title that she possessed of 10000 which is of her and her girlfriend her partner making love and that's you know that's hung right across from I think this smaller painting of a church choir and congregation. And so you see these things that are you know queerness and lesbian sex being broadcast loud in the same context as some things that would be rejecting of it. And so you have this flattening out of the space between a space between between one ideological position and what it opposes.

Speaker 11:

Yeah also I mean it's kind of just documents things that are happening. You know it's like I have sex with my girlfriend over here. These guys are singing in a church choir at a Baptist church. Over here there's a Trump rally over here. There's like an insane liberal lady like writing letters to the editor. So kind of just collapses all these things in a way that almost gives you like not hope necessarily but it's kind of like OK everyone's a little crazy like we're all kind of losing it together. And people have different ways of coping and you can kind of look at her work through that lens to put it to it.

Speaker 9:

Yeah I like that leveling out that it's that it's a web of all these things that coexist and they're all treated at least in terms of her painterly ness. They're all treated with attention. Yeah. But but OK.

Speaker 11:

So going back to this idea of subjectivity and art. You gave this great example of this George Bush George Bush got lent a painting from a friend. Do you want to describe that scenario.

Speaker 15:

Sure. He was lent a painting. This was before he was a presidential candidate. He was governor yes he was Texas governor in 1995 and he received this loan from a friend. It was a 1916 painting by W. H.T. corner and he told the staffers that the painting was called A Charge to Keep and he wrote this memo in which he associated with him by the Methodist Charles Wesley. And then he sent he said this is the memo George Bush sent to his staffers he said when you come into my office please take a look at the beautiful painting of a horseman determinately charging up what appears to be a steep and rough trail. This is us complete life to the painting for me is the message of Charles Wesley that we serve one greater than ourselves. So he interprets this pain. And he tells us staff to interpret it any like. Use it to be a rallying cry for their shared mission. Surcharging up this mountain. Yeah. In the service of God right. But the actual painting depicted horse thieves I believe who were escaping in Nebraska lynch mob.

Speaker 10:

I love this story because it's yeah I love the bushes just like this. This is the paint. And you know I mean I think we all see our own reality we see our own reflection in things so when given the chance we're going to bring our own baggage. But he just like so intensely shifted the narrative of that painting.

Speaker 12:

Yeah.

Speaker 9:

And I think that that could happen if certain of the paintings in DePoy Spencer show isolated like the baptism or Exactly it could it could happen but then you look at it in the scope of her oeuvre. Like yeah you would be misreading it to say that it was about the beauty baptism and spiritual renewal. Yeah yeah but you you could misread it right in isolation. Right.

Speaker 13:

And you know I mean we talked about this a little bit on the previous episode speaking about political work and kind of ambiguity within political artwork and where that line kind of falls. But often you know work that is a little more open ended allows a viewer to kind of enter in. You know despite their political leanings despite what they're going to bring to it. But it also opens the work up to maybe be interpreted in a way that the artist is like totally opposed to it. It's a vulnerable position I think for artists to be in sometimes to just open their work up that much that it could be like totally warped like this Bush painting and like totally just take it out of context when you look at the Bush painting and you're like well it was actually narrative.

Speaker 9:

So you just don't know the narrative. You change the narrative and the voice fences work they feel like it's a similar thing that if you're going to since there's a story there and there are parts if you're going to twist it you're definitely doing it through projection it's not because it's a vague abstraction right it's because you're projecting a narrative onto it that you want it to communicate yet which then is really telling and interesting too depending on what that narrative is. There's something that I've been thinking about and I might be projecting this onto the work or maybe it really is breaking this open or maybe a little of both. But after Trump's election and the ways in which certain evangelical preachers have defended him despite his clearly unethical behavior. If you're looking at ethics as defined by the church right historically it seems like there is this collapsing like it's almost impossible for them to claim a high ground anymore. And so it seems like the hypocrisy of Christianity is investment and politics is just kind of like yeah exposed in this way that for me feels really freeing especially since I think I always felt a little bit because I was raised in a conservative Christian home that by becoming so left I was in a way betraying the morality I was given.

Speaker 12:

And I know that's not true. But there's still that. And then somehow like with Trump I was like That's bullshit. Yeah.

Speaker 9:

I'm not like I'm like not ethically inferior to my family members voted for this guy. Like out of their Christian committee they use whatever Republican policies. That's interesting. And that's something she does really well in this show and in other past work that by pillaring lots of different kinds of people are or are not glorifying any one group over the other. Like you've been painting of her and her partners is really beautiful but it's also kind of gritty it's like there's lots of stuff and mess around and it's mostly Bachal.

Speaker 10:

One of their backs is like three fourths of the paint it doesn't show that much.

Speaker 11:

You know it's interesting and like it's almost as denial of seen what's happening by just showing their back but also I think it creates the intimacy of like this is something happening between us and you're not in on it kind of gritty. There's like papers and cats and stuff around.

Speaker 9:

And yeah I tried the ending to kind of articulate the way in which these paintings to me spoke to this hypocrisy being exposed and this kind of collapsing of the space between different kinds of different ideas of morality. Right. Yeah. And you wrote this really nice conclusion there.

Speaker 15:

Maybe you could read it for sure something happened when evangelist priest said purportedly blameless God fearing patriarchs began openly supporting a pussy grabber and praising a chief justice who defended his quote love of beer while badgering U.S. senators and crime. Yes. The hypocrisy of associating morality with partisanship became so barefaced and indefensible that a space opened up where God orgasms left right queerness family church redemption or disaster could blur into each other steeping together in the same confused do depicting that space as DePoy Spencer does so well. Whenever a race the chasms that divide those of us living in this country but it can render a version of America wrong and contradictory enough to feel invitingly believable.

Speaker 6:

The karma podcast is supportive in part by the Getty experience the exhibition monumentality at the Getty Research Institute. Now through April 21st discover various monumental structures and consider why some endure and others fall. Plan your visit and learn more. Getty dot edu.

Speaker 8:

Welcome to L.A. at large in this conversation. I'm joined by Bettina Korek and Humza Walker to get a sneak peek into Friis Los Angeles. Couric is a fair director and Walker is programming the talks and music around the fair with its inaugural law fair coming up in February. We discuss why freezed chose to expand to Los Angeles and how the fair hopes to connect to the L.A. based art community and the city at large. First I ask Bettina Humza to give us their backgrounds within the L.A. art community. Here's Bettina.

Speaker 16:

I grew up in L.A. and I grew up going back with my mom and actually work. There are a couple of years after graduating from college for about six years and was really struck by how the different departments and the museum related to each other and at the same time was trying to get friends who I'd grown up with to come to the museum and they would say it's like the one downtown or next of the tarping. So I think you know I started for your art out of a very kind of natural need that people had they wanted to know what was going on in L.A. and it continues to be a kind of weekly listing of events and openings and benefits that comes out every week. Yeah I just think it's amazing how much the general consciousness about Art in L.A. has changed since then. In what ways have you seen it changed directly. Well I think for it for your art. Even just looking at the sheer number of submissions that we get every week and the kind of different.

Speaker 17:

You know I think we we use this term the art world so often that there are many art worlds and yet especially in Los Angeles again you know our hope is that the warrior art email can be an access point to different facets of what's going on right.

Speaker 11:

Definitely. And Humza you're kind of a newcomer to L.A. I know we interviewed you in a previous issue. So we got to talk with you a little bit about that. But tell us so you're at L.A. acts as a director. Tell us yeah kind of how you came to L.A. and maybe what some of your impressions are of the scene here.

Speaker 18:

MOORE No stranger to L.A. actually wanting to move here. Yeah right after college and came out in 1989 to scope the joint and I was going to move here but I just kept getting jobs in Chicago. So it's basically a dream deferred. No more I don't know 30 years later. But professionally I'd been coming out to L.A. over the course of from the mid 90s forward right on a regular basis. We did a show of the Pentagon's work TNB 8. So 97 98 I was out here on a regular basis. But my vantage point was South Bay and that's where you would stay in South Bay with Pettibone.

Speaker 19:

Yeah they live in that home yeah I know and so that's a Pettibone as your guide tour right.

Speaker 18:

I was just telling someone yeah for no reason at all. Ray took me on a drive along Wilshire Boulevard.

Speaker 20:

The whole thing did that. Yeah it was great.

Speaker 18:

So that was I was a really wonderful time. But I've always loved L.A.. Right. So when Andy Philbin called and asked if I wanted to calculate made Millais sure yeah I didn't do very many projects if any outside the Renaissance society. So it was the first project I'd done outside of work in Chicago. I jumped at the chance. When Andy Philbin called and asked if I wanted to calculate with arm Tshidi so that was a great two years. I can't think of a better way to integrate the city to be ingratiated him with the community of artists right outwards over well over 150 studio visits right. That was wonderful so it's kind of a you know an organic move right to Los Angeles Afar's. No one can make an organic moved to Los Angeles so yeah but I really love it here.

Speaker 11:

Yeah so okay. Bettina here the director of the Frisoli fair and then Humza you're doing sort of programming talks and music. Correct yeah. So I want to talk a little bit about Friis and you know it's a long running magazine it's a long running affair it has a big history. Can you maybe Betina shed a little insight into why L.A. and why specifically now in choosing this year to launch the inaugural.

Speaker 21:

Well I think you know many people in L.A. have been hoping that an international art fair would establish roots here. And I'm glad that it's free use which you know did emerge out of a magazine and continues to take an editorial approach to everything that they do. I think the timing is really important. And the fact that it's happening on the heels of two Pacific Standard Time exhibitions the first which really helped to historic size the post-war art history in Los Angeles both locally and around the world. I think that it concretize this interest in L.A. that's always been there. Right. You know and then obviously the kind of collaboration that emerged and going through that process that they got the lead. And so you know our hope is that frees can kind of build on this momentum and establish an annual moment for the city.

Speaker 18:

It's very funny that you would mention the art fair in the wake of pisti I'm going to feel that I've come to Los Angeles I can have a sense of it is still a very young city. It's growing with all the attendant growing pains on every different level. Right. So to be here with the founding of two museums you know the brochure and Marciano and to see something like a city where L.A. is really has I feel like the dawning of a certain consciousness of itself. You know the community community's ability to see itself as such right both in the present moment and and historical sense yeah warrant to think of the fair as yet another component to into that.

Speaker 22:

And then also I think about this a lot from the Maxine's point of view but projecting L.A. outward and I think that's a really vital part to any sustainable art scene in a city is other people being interested in what we're doing because L.A. has been here. I mean there's been a lot of activity here. But we're talking about this growth in the last number of years right. I was wondering if you could tell us about Freeze's partnership with endeavor which is L.A. based company. I don't know much about them but I'm curious if this was a factor in bringing the fare out to L.A..

Speaker 16:

You know certainly Freeze's partnership with endeavor is a great resource to draw on. And I think the fact that in its inaugural year the Ferez happening at a movie studio in between the Grammys and the Oscars. And symbolically putting art on that map we have these events that take place every year the Art and Film Gala the hammer gala where the relationship between the art and entertainment worlds is articulated and obviously programs that happen throughout the year. The film programs. I think what's interesting about this partnership is the degree to which we can engage their community throughout the year and encourage them to think of the fair as an access point to the L.A. art community both for themselves and their colleagues.

Speaker 14:

And you know extended friends sure maybe kind of fostering that as a potential collector base too.

Speaker 16:

Absolutely. I mean as Hamzas said L.A. is a relatively young city and I think the fact that you know the Otis's report on the creative economy has done a lot to elevate the consciousness on a civic level about how important the art community is to this city and the fact that one in seven jobs in Los Angeles is connected to a creative industry in terms of a collector base so it means we also have a different relationship to patronage. One of the things that will be different at the fair is Freeze's had a longstanding program of conversations on collecting and for L.A. we're introducing conversations on patronage to really consider collecting as part of a bigger personal practice that involves supporting artists and the organizations that present them.

Speaker 21:

So our hope is definitely that the fare can be an access point for new collectors and also for an ongoing relationship with an institution in the city.

Speaker 8:

RAY So before we get I'd love to hear more about the talks and music portion but maybe Bettina you can give us kind of a rundown of the participating galleries and what we can expect.

Speaker 17:

Well the first fare will be at Paramount Studios which is a very active site a production that will continue while the fair is going on. We'll have kind of four main centers of energy with that tent being the very heart of it. There'll be 70 galleries in the tent. 30 percent of which actually have a space in L.A. or are considered an L.A. based gallery which is really exciting and the sort of next hub of activity an extension of what's happening under the tent or the projects on the Backlot Ali Subotnick is commissioning artists to really respond to this site. That's a stand in for a real city that's meant to look real on camera and I think it's interesting to consider how the backlot is also a very unique symbol of alway's creative ecosystem. And this Litoral bringing together of a place for entertainment is made and having artists respond to that site. The Sherry Lansing theater where the conversations on patronage and Hamzas program are take place is another kind of heart of what's happening here. Our hope is that we can continue to build on Freeze's history of stimulating dialogue and we're really excited about what's happening in the theater. And then the final site is the paramount theater where there will be some screenings and people will really get the kind of experience the magic of the Paramount lot. But you know bringing the very unique history and sensibility of freeze to.

Speaker 11:

Can you tell us a little more about. It's great that 30 out of the 70 or so are L.A. based but tell us a little bit more about the participating galleries and maybe sort of I don't know energy you were trying to play through the selection process.

Speaker 17:

Well it was an invitation process. We had a committee of Galice including Sean Reagan David Dansky Mark McCarthy Carol green Danny Garcia from white cube and Matthew Wood from Mendus was. So the invitation process kind of came out of meetings with them. And I think first and foremost the desire was to establish a really strong foundation of support from L.A. galleries and we're proud of how that turned out.

Speaker 11:

Do the other affairs like didn't. Does New York minute they kind of do that. It's mostly a regional galleries that are exhibiting in each location.

Speaker 16:

What's different about the L.A. process was that it was an invitation right. But I think that the character of the freeze fares is quite international right.

Speaker 6:

OK so Humza. Tell us about some of the talks we talked about patronage as a theme collecting. So in terms of public programs component I was thinking about it in relation to.

Speaker 18:

Something of a collaboration between L.A. Exaro and freeze. All right so for the months leading up to freeze the gallery L.A. Exaro will be given over to public programs with the final four days being freeze from February 14th through the 17th being kind of the denouement. That way you know it's not as though this sudden spate of programs kind of just like lands on the city right to have a series of events very clearly articulated you know two or three types of programs that will then you know take place over the. Four weeks leading up to friends.

Speaker 11:

Yeah and it may be also in an effort to contextualize all the energy around the fair. So what's the focus of these talks.

Speaker 19:

Yeah that's what I'm figuring out right now as we speak. But one of the things I'm really fortunate to have as a collaborator just signed on Josh Kuhn. He's a professor at USC. He did a a one off version of this version of Name That Tune with Leonard Nimoy. Over a decade ago but Josh suggested reviving that program. OK right now we're looking to do four episodes or chapters with different guests. You know the big marquee and based on that will take place at the Paramount ice during free. So the three of them will take place at L.A. Exaro leading up to the Fair and the final one at the fair.

Speaker 10:

And so that same idea of asking an artist or something in the city to present music the thing right.

Speaker 19:

It's a way of getting to know someone through their musical tastes. So you know we're thinking of really particular people where they already have an interest in music and there might be things that you couldn't get at or learn about them any other way and have a discussion about their record collection or particular tracks that significant to them. So they'll be invited to play a couple tracks and then talk about what they mean with these tracks mean to them personally professionally. And then there will be artists on artists. The kinds of talks will repair pair artists interviewing one another having a conversation about their work. Bettina had mentioned discussions about collecting patronage so there's that which is quite specific to the event and I have a much different investment in a certain sense. By doing these public events with trees and having them I'd like them to be outward and to contribute to the profile of activities in the city. Overall yes. To put together a slate of programs that you would want to see regardless of where they work. Sure when they were this is a great moment to be able to do that in terms of having the resources to do it so that it draws people yeah you know they can both come to the fair but they might be interested in coming to the it's independent of the fair.

Speaker 11:

It is a specific backdrop right. You said it can happen anywhere but it is a commercial art fair to so like why is it important to connect the sort of art market aspects with this sort of larger L.A. art activity.

Speaker 19:

Right. I would actually kind of reverse the direction of that question. There are certain figures who if asked to give a lecture or be on a panel or make a presentation within the context of they wouldn't be interested at all in doing something in the context of an art fair. Right. So to have the programs be of a certain girths that is over and above right in an art fair in order to attract figures who would be interested in coming to Los Angeles because they haven't been here before or they haven't been here in awhile to talk about what they do talk about their work independent of the art fair. All right. Right. And sunset's as opposed to it being you know you're asking me to come and speak at an art fair. Not that that's a derogatory thing but I think that we can create another kind of context. You know with resources from the art fair to draw. Sure. Sure. Who otherwise wouldn't be.

Speaker 18:

I see no interested. So to use Los Angeles as the draw of the art fair itself right.

Speaker 22:

I see. So that's an interesting way to frame it to use the resources from the fair to kind of get that from you to the fact that this is the of companies coming over.

Speaker 20:

I mean get it together pull it together.

Speaker 21:

I've never been I mean this is my first you know my first involvement I've ever had with a commercial fair like this. And what drew me to it was thinking about what Friis has establish especially in London. That whole week is a time for the city to kind of put its best foot forward and so many people want to come to Los Angeles and experience what's happening here. But they need a Sherpa and I think an art fair really provides that opportunity to kind of host people and welcome and hear and wow the success of the galleries is absolutely a priority for us and something that I'm thinking a lot about particularly in putting a House committee together and stressing the fact with people that this fair can really be an evolve into civic events.

Speaker 19:

And so I think you know both Hamze and I share that desire and vision for quite rightly I would have signed on otherwise and I'm a veteran of the art fairs in Chicago in which you know from the mid 90s when the Chicago Art Expo was the third biggest fair in Basel and behind Khaleej where it had tremendous impact on the city's cultural offerings even if only for those four days but it was those four days that you know I found myself you know drinking at a blues club with Max Hetzler and having a great time or you know being with you know Armando lead you know the great collector of conceptual art a number of people who came through Chicago at that time. And that was their way of knowing Chicago and keeping in touch with Chicago. And it also felt like we were connected to the world through that event.

Speaker 21:

So and it's that potential for bringing visitors from all over the country and the world. And then the fact that this can help raise Angelenos awareness about ways that they can be involved in art and experience art. Every other day of the year and the fact that we're working together with Ali x art we do hope that that brings people more into their fold and helps them realize that this is going on all this time.

Speaker 22:

Yeah I love the idea of hosting the talks first x and then kind of fold in that and that's really nice as a way to ground is like no this is this is for you guys.

Speaker 20:

Right.

Speaker 19:

And there's a range of offerings I'd say over that. That's a way of introducing a range of offerings that we might not be able to simply just because of time and space to be able to accommodate you know paramount right during those four days. So I want to talk about in terms of topics issues that drive the field of contemporary art right now and only a portion of which will be touched on you know during the time of the fair. I think as far as a run up to the fair people having a sense that that range is the context. Yeah these other events in terms of a perception of the fair I think is very important. Definitely. So it isn't just simply a conversation about the market and what's hot. You know that drives what we're going to talk about Oh sure. And those are things that are already talked about. Sure. You know as evidence in that new documentary came out. I mean do we need another documentary about the art market right.

Speaker 10:

Yeah. We've talked about it sort of knows this but it remains I think a mystery to people and it remains.

Speaker 22:

In our last podcast one of my writers said it remains so opaque like it I think to a lot of artists and young writers artists in the city it remains kind of like this under belt like this thing that we all are aware of but we don't necessarily want to talk about it or understand and we think a lot of young artists sort of look away from the market. You know so I'm curious how you know we can maybe talk about shifting that perception and shifting from collecting in the market. And all of that into a part of sort of the art world's ecology here.

Speaker 19:

The art world makes for a really juicy gossip and you know a certain type or sliver of market activity is you know the kind of fodder for a documentary. I mean and I would say that that market function is no more or less in an opaque fashion than any other market when it comes down to it and cents. But to make some general kinds of distinction. Right. What's the difference between you know a critical kind of assessment that art historians and critics scholars about what's important. How do we come to that evaluation and what's the relationship between that kind of evaluation and the valuation in the dollar amount. Right. That's determined by the market right. And to what extent are those things in sync or out of sync right is one of the things that I always find very interesting thank you this is a period in which there are actually wildly out of sync. You know what we may agree upon as being important is not at all reflected in what is being bought and sold. Yes. One just has one distinction and that's not a value judgment. Right. You don't want any in any in any sense whatsoever as much as it's just simply you know good or bad fact of life.

Speaker 22:

Sure. Can you elaborate on that a little like what disparity do you see. I mean I have an idea of what you're saying but just to clarify sort of what's being maybe celebrated in a sort of critical arena. That's not necessarily on the market.

Speaker 19:

Yeah I mean just simple you know it's an old an old one an old example you know but the moment that Richard Prince nurse painting goes for a million dollars you know I won't forget that always sticks with me and it was like out of the blue and wholly arbitrary right as you have which is really much more symptomatic of a particular class and an accumulation of capital right for which spending a million dollars on painting X Y or Z doesn't matter if you want it you want it you know you've got someone with a hedge fund with an inordinate amount of wealth who is able to move the needle within markets just by saying OK you know not that art historians are critics or curators you know where you know. I mean there's Richard Prince But then where did the nurse paintings fall. Right. They were kind of paint was still drying on them in a certain sense. But the idea that they had surpassed that say you know a figure like your heartbreaker right now is just kind of like an astounding moment to say Whoa this is. What are we what do you do with that then how do you what's the what's the counter response like you know to try and think about why is that. Yeah. So that's just a good example from what I wrote 20 years ago or.

Speaker 21:

You mentioned the documentary and that in particular really articulate the fact that most of the news that comes out about our world is auction records and parties. And one of the opportunities we have in L.A. where so much entertainment is produced and there's this professional audience that we can bring to the fair. And of course collecting is one way to get involved but just thinking about the potential ripple effects that these communities coming closer together. And people who produce entertainment knowing more stories about the art world rather than just what they see news. I mean I think that that's what we all hope could happen. Right.

Speaker 23:

I mean I feel though with respect to those at this point there are many art worlds and it's now a decision as to which one you choose to portray. So just as soon as you could make a documentary about the habits of let's double it not the 1 percent.

Speaker 19:

Let's say that 2 percent. OK. And the buying habits of the 2 percent who the characters are that fall within the big you know price tag moneymakers. You could just as soon make another kind of documentary about another facet of an outlaw or with a whole roster and cast of I would say notable notable figures and come out with something completely different. So at this point you know that that is even though it's billed as the art world. It's hardly. Yeah you know right.

Speaker 14:

Yeah there's a lot of facets and pockets and it sounds like that's something that you're hoping to sort of pull the curtain back on a bit with the programs or on the fair like it's not just about this kind of singular aspect of buying selling galleries representing artists but sort of a larger in the most system there are moments when those things in a in a constructive fashion constructive in terms of for the sake of conversation you know Kalighat or at least rub shoulders.

Speaker 22:

Let's talk about Ellas collector base. I'm curious because I feel like people there's this myth or maybe it's a reality. Probably both. That L.A. doesn't have much of a collector base or it's growing or it's not in step with the other growth we're seeing in the art world. As you said museums opening galleries popping up so much going on.

Speaker 21:

But maybe compared to New York or other European cities the collectors aren't quite there to support the art production as we've been saying L.A. is a relatively young city and there is an incredible base of collectors here that has grown in tandem with the efforts of the museums like Lac and the hammer and MOCA which I think have worked really hard to expand their opportunities for education. And as the profile of as art community has risen internationally the people who live here have noticed that. And I think there is more and more of a desire to meaningfully support what's going on in Los Angeles. I think we all take for granted how intimidating the art world can be. And you mentioned the opacity of the market. I think that some people feel that there no you know the opacity of the language around art is just as big of an issue. So I have a close friend who grew up in Hollywood and he always says the difference between Hollywood and the art world is they don't try to make their audience feel stupid. Think about that a lot. And you know I think we all we all need to be a little bit more candid with ourselves about you know what does it mean to share information about an artist and an art work in a meaningful way that doesn't feel like it's in this sort of artspeak bubble and L.A. is kind of natural place where you know this can happen. The.

Speaker 6:

Podcast is supported in part by at all. Founded in 2012 with two locations in San Francisco at all and at all etc hosts a wide variety of exhibitions. Working with a small roster as well as other local and international artists writers and curators at awls Chinatown location currently has a solo show by Kaela Efros at all etc.. The mission has a solo show of Andrew Chapman's work and not in Miami at all will be exhibiting a solo booth of works by Anna Solal. For more information go to as all ATC dot com or follow on Instagram at all. Gallery S.F..

Speaker 8:

Welcome to dear Carla. The segment where we answer a listener submitted question about the art world. You can submit your question on Instagram by D minus or write to us at podcast. A Contemporary Art Review L.A. this episode the question comes from a local artist who asks How does one price their work particularly as a young or underrepresented artist. Often people will tell you to calculate the cost of materials by the cost of labor. But we all see what works sell for and know that it isn't really that straightforward. Thank you for that question and to answer the question I called up Sam Parker from Parker gallery. As a gallery that shows both historical artists and emerging ones Sam has experience with pricing at several stages of an artist's career. So I thought he'd be really well suited to answer this question.

Speaker 24:

Hello. Hey hey how's it going. Good how are you doing. Good. So I was curious to talk to you specifically Sam because you work with both historical artists and young artists and yeah you might have some specific insight into this problem what pricing art is difficult.

Speaker 25:

It can be intimidating and it isn't an exact science. So it should really be more intuitive. Right. The cost and value of labor is certainly a factor as is size and scale. For example if the work is large and very labor intensive it should demand higher value. And likewise if the work is made through an extensive process such as bronze casting there is a base material and production costs to match the value should be added. Sure. So in general I usually ask emerging artists to consider a sum that they would be pleased with. And from that Aristotelis retell Christ. So it's sort of a happy balance between letting go of something that is a very personal creation and being compensated for that exchange.

Speaker 14:

And how so would young artists that maybe haven't shown in galleries before. How are artists normally coming up with that number that they feel comfortable with. And maybe like how do you help encourage them to go one way or the other. Or is it just based on purely personal preferences personal preferences are definitely a factor.

Speaker 25:

As an artist you know does not want a high value on their work and wants it to be much more accessible to a large audience then you know I try to work with that. But in general especially with an emerging artist that you know is unrepresented I would you know I would suggest don't shoot for the moon. You know especially right out of the gate. You know the stealth room to grow. And then as one's work is exhibited and sold more regularly that begins to establish a market value and the goal is to build that value slowly over time.

Speaker 11:

Right. And how do you gauge when it's time to bump that up.

Speaker 25:

I mean I assume it's a bit of luck or do you have a system you know you know that when it comes time to raise prices it's really just kind of basic economics and it's supply and demand. And you know as an artist work is increasingly in demand and as you know selling fairly regularly you know then you can start to look at slowly raising the prices right.

Speaker 14:

Right. So. OK. Another scenario. What about a young artist who hasn't shown much but they really want to do bronze casting or some painter. You know one of these scenarios where as you brought up initially the material or the scale is demanding a large price point but the artist doesn't necessarily have that value yet.

Speaker 25:

Yeah well if if you have an ambitious project you know try to get your gallery or whatever the venue is that's exhibiting the work to pay for production costs upfront that that can always be subtracted from from a commission from a sale. But you know if you're ambitious and you have a project that you that you want to see happen try to get someone else to foot the bill.

Speaker 14:

OK. Good tip. So let's maybe shift over to talking about some of the historical artists. I know you work with a lot of artists who have had careers and although a lot of their work hasn't necessarily been shown as much as you know it should be. So how do you go about pricing that work and when are you kind of inventing those prices versus relying on the markets that they've had in the past.

Speaker 25:

Yeah in a way that's even it's even trickier. I mean I work with artists that are in their 70s 80s. I have I work with one artist who's 9 years old and they have very diverse experiences exhibiting and selling their work. So reintroducing were to market that hasn't been seen in 50 years is a pretty complicated equation and really there's no formula for it. You can refer as much to the past values because something that was 2000 dollars 40 years ago a very different value today. So in general time adds value. So if the artist is lucky enough to still be active older work will usually be of more value than recent work. When you have a body of work that spans 40 50 60 years you can start to identify works that are sort of the most iconic or the most important have been the most exhibited and that not all the work will sort of be the most valuable. And then at that point if the artist hasn't had you know recent sales or sales in a very long time or sporadic sales over the course of their career it's kind of a game of patience. You know you sort of way to make those first few sales that begin to establish market value.

Speaker 14:

Sure. And artists that have passed. I mean that then you have this kind of limited quantity of their work and I'm sure that factors into the scarcity aspect.

Speaker 25:

Exactly. That is back to supply and demand. I mean if the artist is no longer living they're not making any more work. So you have a very specific body of work that is you know there's not going to be any more. And you as you start to sell works they become rarer and rarer and then you know slowly that those values will will increase as that work is continually exhibited.

Speaker 8:

So I want to go back to that question a little bit and talk about young artists a bit more.

Speaker 14:

And that thing you mentioned earlier about just choosing what the artist feels comfortable with and that young artist kind of coming up with a number. Can you tell us a little bit more on that maybe some advice for young artists. As far as what they should feel comfortable you know that line is like not undervaluing your work but at the same time not. Wanting it to be something it's not yet.

Speaker 25:

Yeah well in general it also really depends on context that the work is being exhibited and sold if the artist is beginning to door doing their first show with the gallery. You know galleries typically take a 50 percent commission. So that obviously is how you sort of determine what that retail price should be. The artist is selling work through the studio. You know that's a much a different scenario and you don't have to factor in a commission. So it shouldn't be wildly different from what the retail price would be. But you know the artist is definitely has a little bit more control flexibility and that kind of an arrangement.

Speaker 14:

I've heard some stories about collectors going into studios and they want the sort of wholesale prices. What do you what it is is that a thing like should collectors expect to only pay the artists if they're in the artist's studio. To me that feels crazy.

Speaker 26:

Yeah that is a little bit.

Speaker 25:

I mean I know it but it also it also really is a case by case scenario if you know if if artists have shown in a gallery context but doesn't have a stable or you know big or lasting gallery relationship. The art is you know should still be charging the retail price maybe with you know a little bit of a discount but not so you know just because a collector's buying directly from the artist does not mean that they should be paying half of what the artist is asking.

Speaker 14:

Right because the artists in that instance is kind of taking the place of the gallery building the connection with the collector personally. So it's still doing that work Gray and generally shipping the work or dealing with installation and all these things.

Speaker 25:

Yeah and it's also you know if if an artist was selling their work for you know half of the retail price it starts to mess with the market value a little bit. Collectors can take advantage of that and it really kind of upsets the whole you know little dynamic that has been created in this weird world.

Speaker 14:

Sure sure. So it's all an event. But you know think instead of precedents and continue on that range of. The Karlo Podcast is produced by contemporary art review Los Angeles and me Lindsay Preston APIs with production assistance from Charlotte Renner.

Speaker 27:

GOP U.S. composer of the music. The podcast is available on iTunes Spotify Stitcher or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 2:

We also archive and post every episode on our Web site. A contemporary art Revue de la where you can also find photos links and episode transcripts are newly released Karla issue for team is available for free at about 100 locations around Los Angeles. You can order a copy of the issue through the online store if you want to pay to have it shipped to you or subscribe to a year of Karla for just 22 dollars. Don't forget to follow us on Instagram under the handle at Contemporary Review Dadda laye to see daily post of art around Los Angeles. And finally if you're a regular listener of the podcast we really want to hear from you. We've been doing the podcast for a little over a year. We'd love to hear what you think where you want the podcast to go.

Speaker 27:

Some of your favorite segments so leave us a comment on iTunes or you can Diệm us on Instagram or write to us at podcast a contemporary art review.

Speaker 5:

We'll be taking January off from the podcast so we can all enjoy a little holiday break so wishing everyone a Happy Holiday Happy New Year. And we'll be back in February with another episode. We'll see you next time.

Writer's Room: Catherine Wagley on Celeste Dupuy-Spencer and Figurative Religion
L.A. at Large: Bettina Korek and Hamza Walker on Frieze L.A.
Dear Carla: How do I price my art?