Shock Collars, Ask the Dog, and Advances in Veterinary Medicine with Steve Dale

 In this podcast episode, Victoria Stilwell and Steve Dale discuss his new book, Ask the Dog, and the importance of consent and bite prevention. 

Their freewheeling conversation explores humane dog training, the dangers of aversive methods like shock collars, veterinary breakthroughs, and the far-reaching impact of scientific research in feline health. 

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Transcript

Victoria (00:10)

Don't tell the dogs. But today I have somebody on the podcast who's been here before and he's very knowledgeable about dogs and cats. So we might be talking about cats. His name is Steve Dale. He is a pet expert, a certified animal behavior consultant and a public speaker. He's also a radio host, celebrity. I love him. His name is Steve Dale and he is here joining us on the podcast. Welcome.

Steve Dale (00:41)

You know, I think the biggest credit you left out, and that is that I've been your friend probably for 20 years.

Victoria (00:48)

Yes you have 20 years are we that old Steve? No we're not that old we're

Steve Dale (00:51)

No, I don't have time for that. And somehow you look better and I won't even discuss how I look.

Victoria (01:00)

Now I really do. I'm definitely, I'm definitely seeing the aging, but you know what? It's better than the alternative, isn't it? So we got to embrace it and we're still here and we're still doing what we love to do. And I am talking to you today about a whole lot of other things, cause I love it when you come on my podcast, but about your new book, which is Ask the Dog. And I'm holding up here for people to see who are watching Ask the Dog by Steve Dale.

Steve Dale (01:27)

Thank you.

Victoria (01:29)

and illustrated by Shelby Cola. And it's a children's book, but I love it. I, you know, you signed it to me and you made me laugh because you said you're the best thing to happen for dogs since a tennis ball. That is probably the highest praise I've ever been given. So thank you. Anyway, ⁓ a great book and so important. You and I every year we join the event 

Victoria (01:58)

of American Veterinary Medical Association for Dog Bite Prevention Week. So there's a lot to talk about, but you are here. I know you have a little cold, so thank you so much for joining me, even when you don't feel so great. But I have a lot of questions to ask you, Steve.

Steve Dale (02:18)

I feel great because I'm talking to you. Yeah, Dog Bite Prevention Week this year, 2026 is April 12th through the 16th, I believe. And that's what motivated me in part to do this book. So I've never done a kid's book before. Shh, don't tell anyone that. I've written many other books, yep, contributed to lots of books. Honored to say many veterinary books as well. ⁓ But when I received the phone call from a children's book publisher, ⁓

Victoria (02:36)

You have.

Steve Dale (02:48)

Balu Publishing based in Florida. I said, you know what? This idea that I have will actually work better for a kid's book. And of course, most dog bites do happen to children. And part of the notion of this book is to prevent dog bites. So here's how it happened. Are you ready? There I am just walking down the street. I've got our little dog then about 16 years old with me. She's just sniffing at the grass.

Victoria (03:07)

I'm ready.

Steve Dale (03:16)

minding her own business. There's another dog next to us, maybe 35 pounds or something mixed breed dog. I'm not paying any attention to that dog. Our dog isn't paying any attention. But the woman holding the dog says to me out of the blue, I don't know her. She says, well, don't you want to pet my dog? And instantly, I looked at the dog and I said, No, thank you.

Victoria (03:37)

⁓ What a weird thing to say! Was she kidding on you, Steve?

Steve Dale (03:39)

That would be nice to think about, that I could still have that happen. But maybe I never thought of that till now. But she was actually insulted by my answer of it. And I answered for a reason. The dog was kind of stretched the other way, looking in the other direction. So the dogs not making eye contact with me is stretched to the opposite direction end of the leash. And the ears were down a little

Steve Dale (04:12)

That was enough to tell me for whatever the reason at this point in time, this dog did not want to interact. Now, maybe she asked me that question because she wants this dog maybe newly adopted. I have no clue to socialize more with people. And the dog really doesn't like to do that. It could be the dog was stretching that way because that's the direction of the dog's home and the dog was hungry. I mean, it could be anything. I have no idea. But I do know that at that point in time,

the dog did not want to interact. Now, would most people pick up on that? And I thought most people probably would not. I don't know if you agree with that, but the signal was subtle and the lady is saying, we've all been taught, ask, can I pet your dog? And here the lady is proactively telling me, pet my dog. So I would think many people might, or least might try to pet that dog.

Victoria (05:05)

I think you're right. I think a lot of people would have no idea. You know, we're so much in this world that we have to understand that people don't understand as much about body language as we do, even those people who have dogs.

Steve Dale (05:21)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree with you. And with four and a half million people in the US bitten by dogs every year, according to the most recent numbers, and by the way, those numbers are understated. So you're in your home, right? You have your dog. And for whatever reason, that dog, your own dog, bites someone in the family, most likely a child. If it's not a significant bite or significant enough to go to urgent care or a hospital,

Why are you reporting it? Would you? Most people would not. In fact, they'd not want to for fear that then, okay, this dog is going to be considered a biter, you know? So the numbers are probably even higher than that. And they've never been so high. We have now more dog bite fatalities in America than ever before. And by the way, in the UK, just FYI, similar problem. Dog bite numbers are going way up. Why that is the case, we can talk about.

Victoria (05:53)

No.

Steve Dale (06:19)

But I think if we ask the dog, then maybe we can bring down the numbers a little bit and understand teaching kids first. Dog is a second language because in my view, dogs are always, always communicating with us. Even the way the dog is laying down next to you right now, Vic, that dog is saying, I'm relaxed, or maybe I'm in pain, or maybe I'm anxious. Maybe I've got to go potty but the dog is communicating something even in the way a dog lies right next to you. The thing is we don't often pay attention or we don't often understand.

Victoria (06:59)

Now ask the dog, we are taught and have been taught and we teach kids that it's important to go and ask the owner if you can pet the dog. But this book is saying, yes, still do that as long as you're with a responsible adult, because we don't want kids just to go up to people with dogs and ask them if they can pet the dog. We don't want people, kids going talking to strangers. But you're saying that it needs to go, we need to be teaching children a step further. It's not just okay for the owner, the guardian to say, sure, pet my dog. The kid's got to ask the dog too.

Steve Dale (07:38)

Absolutely. And it goes for our own dogs in our own homes. Sometimes that dog you want to cuddle up with right next to you on the sofa and squeeze and hold and love may not be in the mood to do so. we know that dogs are emotional beings. You talk about that all the time. Decades ago, hard to believe even in veterinary textbooks.

Dogs don't have emotions like we do or cats. That's what those books said back in the day, not anymore. They don't feel pain like we do. That's what those books said, not anymore. We now know, and it's not my opinion or your opinion, we know their neurochemistry is pretty much identical to our own. So they have emotions that are pretty much identical to ours. Now they may express those emotions differently because they are after all dogs. However, they have them.

Victoria (08:05)

Yeah.

Steve Dale (08:33)

And if the dog doesn't want to, for whatever the reason, interact even with a family member who the dog loves, Why not give that dog the right to just say no? And to me, it is amazing, amazing how tolerant dogs are for the way we manhandle dogs at times, I'm surprised there aren't more dog bites.

Victoria (08:57)

You have been very outspoken regarding how people train dogs. And I met you first through, think, was it the American Humane Association?

Steve Dale (09:10)

Probably, yeah, yes, I was on their board one time.

Victoria (09:12)

You were on their board and I was an ambassador for them. Now we are no longer, but we used to be. What was that?

Steve Dale (09:16)

Yes, I, well, I hope you got free parking when you were the ambassador. I hope you got free parking when you were the ambassador.

Victoria (09:25)

Well, I, not really, but there you go. Yeah, no, no, no diplomat special treatment here, but you, along with the American Humane Association came out against a certain dog whisperer and ⁓ interviewed him a couple of times on your show. And that's, so when we're talking about handling, I'm not just focusing on him, but I'm focusing on a lot of these.

Victoria (09:53)

social media trainer wannabes that are really mishandling dogs and they have millions of followers and they are applauded because they're able to suppress these dogs and change behavior and these dogs are so terrified at the other end of the leash as they're being manhandled. Why are we, why are people so drawn to that when actually the dog's crying out and saying, please stop?

Steve Dale (10:20)

I don't know for sure the answer to that. think we need a psychologist here to talk about human behavior and how we need to feel superior to other creatures when we're not in many ways. So years ago, around that time that this guy you're talking about was on TV and his show was quite popular. I will say that I went to the American Humane Board at that time and said,

Okay, let's pay attention to what this guy is doing on television. And here are some specific examples. We've got to stop this program. Nat Geo laughed at that because they were making so much money. Yeah, National Geographic. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry. I didn't hear it. So the channel said no, but then we went back to them with an alternative idea, and that's at least to put warnings on the screen. Don't try this at home.

Victoria (11:00)

Doesn't matter. Money trumps everything. sorry. I used a swear word there. Yeah.

Steve Dale (11:16)

Make sure that when a child watches this and then practices on the dog, the child is supervised. This is for entertainment purposes only. That was one of them. So we had the, and they put those up on the screen and we thought, hooray, this will dissuade people from watching the show. It really did not. I began to become even more vocal. Dr. Sophia Yen had a newspaper column at that time and she was similarly very vocal about concerns.

that we truly had. wasn't personal to him. It was the way in which he was doing what he was doing. And that more importantly, it would be replicated by others. And we wrote about it, we talked about it. Eventually, for whatever the reason, I don't know if it was the impact that not only myself, but many other people, the impact of people like me saying this is actually dangerous, this is not beneficial, it's not humane, actually.

I don't know if it was that or TV programs just run their course, you know, I know, you know, so was it that we don't know, it doesn't much matter. And then popularity of those sorts of training methods seem to gradually go away to some extent as well. But then you talked about it just now, it's shock back out of a cannon.

just like that with YouTube, with Instagram and with TikTok in particular. These trainers say in these videos, look, I've rehabilitated this dog. This dog would have eaten me and they show clips of the dog being aggressive. Of course, you and I know aggressive dogs are mostly just fearful. And by using a shock collar, and I don't know if you wanna go down this whole pathway or not, you're actually, yeah.

potentially right now at this very moment, you're stopping the behavior. If every time, Vic, you look to your left, I hit you over the head, you probably would stop looking to the left. Yeah, but however, however, there's a reason why you look to the left. That doesn't change the explanation for you looking to your left. And over time, without that shock happening, you'd begin to look to your left even more aggressively, if you will, even more quickly, because you don't want the shock.

Victoria (13:17)

I would.

Steve Dale (13:35)

So it really in the long run doesn't do anything. it's been ⁓ said that, okay, when it's the last resort, at least use shock then. And I say, no, call a veterinary behaviorist. I mean, 20 years ago, we did not know as much about behavior modification as we do today.

20 years ago, we didn't have psychopharmacology, which is available today. And by adjusting that brain chemistry when needed, and it's certainly not always needed, but when needed by adjusting that brain chemistry, now we can reteach the dog confidence. We can reteach the dog whatever we need to, depending on what the circumstances. We don't need to hurt our dogs in order for them to

Victoria (14:21)

But those people who do use shock collars, they will argue to their dying breath. They will argue that this saves dogs lives and all positive trainers want to do is to give dogs treats or give them medication. We can't give medication by the way, just if any of those people are listening, we're not allowed to do that.

Only veterinarians and veterinary behaviorists are allowed to do that. But or we just give up. So dogs are euthanized. you know, when you say something enough, even if it's not true, it becomes truth because you say it enough and enough people say it enough and they say it loudly. It's not based in anything. It's, it's a whole bunch of lies, but it's now part of law because there's 

Victoria (15:16)

enough people screaming about it from the rooftops.

Steve Dale (15:19)

And and we know that's not true. So the last resort thing is a ⁓ fallacy. I'm not endorsing shock collars 20 years ago, but 20 years ago, we didn't have the tools that we have today. So that's one thing. The second thing is you're actually making matters worse in any number of ways the dog potentially can associate the

pain from the shock collar with the person at the other end of it. And even if that doesn't happen, what are we doing to these dogs? you're using that method because the dog has an issue, which is greatly anxiety or fear based in the first place. So by shocking, we know, and again, this isn't my opinion or your opinion, there's study after study after study after study after study. And from a...

different countries all over that suggests clearly that this is not only not beneficial but harmful to our animals to do this. They're supposed to be our best friends and we are doing this. And I can also say something and you and I have never talked about this and now you may get blasted on the podcast for me saying what I'm about to say, but there are a small percent of dogs that may not be able to be helped.

no matter what we do. And by temporarily having that aggressive behavior not happen, a shelter then getting that dog back who was trained using a shock collar who previously had bitten, say, two times and somewhat significantly. And then the trainer said, the dog is fixed. Adopting that dog into a home, particularly if not telling those people that the dog has a history.

And that dog does bite again. That's terrible. Of course. that's happening. Yeah. And I don't like saying this, but a percent of dogs, small, very small, but they're there. Should be euthanized. I mean, I...

Victoria (17:15)

And it's happening all the time, Steve. It's happening all the time. It's a very hard decision to make. of course, us as trainers, we can't make that decision. The only person who ultimately can make the decision is a veterinarian because they're the ones that do the deed or a veterinary behaviorist.

Steve Dale (17:46)

Right. Right. And I just...

I'm also very sad at the, and I know you've talked about this and I've written about it and have talked about it. The hate that's going on online between trainers. Yeah.

Victoria (18:04)

Yeah, well, I was going to actually ask you about that because you came out with an article that you got quite a lot of pushback for, but the article was addressing this discourse between trainers. I put out a video, not so much just about that article, but about just in general, yet should we, we should just have a bit more dignity. We should stop all of this name calling back and forth. However, we also,

Steve Dale (18:11)

Mm-hmm.

Victoria (18:34)

There is a right and a wrong.

It is right to treat a dog humanely and to teach that dog with positive methods so you don't harm it in any kind of way. It is wrong to intimidate a dog, cause a dog to fear you or cause a dog pain while you're raising it, while you're training it. There is a right and a wrong. So I'm not going to endorse somebody or respect somebody or say, yeah, we'll just agree to get along with somebody who on social media is actively abusing dogs and causing them harm.

Steve Dale (19:02)

and even

And, literally, you know, there are some trainers that travel across the country. ⁓ their little road shows that they do. And they say, well, I could fix even the most dangerous dog or whatever their line is. ⁓ and I can do it in one session. I could do it right now. And they use all sorts of, mean, one of those trainers, I think it's called boinking dogs where they use a, ⁓ a bath towel, that's rolled up with a rubber band.

and they actually throw it at the dog. And they won't anymore from much of the country. If you sign up for the course, of course, they tell you, you know, this is the address it's at. But they don't promote that address because they're afraid of being arrested. And for good reason, it is animal cruelty. So not only is it ethically wrong, it is actually in many places in the country, simply against the law.

Victoria (20:09)

against the law. there, so, okay. But then we're having two camps, right? Let's say that there's the trainers that will use punishment and we're talking about harsh punishment. And then there's the positive training camp that will utilize everything else to help dogs learn. And so, you know, and you can call the other camp balanced, whatever it is, yada, yada, yada.

Should we be having more respectful discourse?

Steve Dale (20:40)

I think we need to, but for a lot of reasons. First of all, and it's more than just the two camps Vic, even within each camp, there are people screaming at each other. I do think screaming. And this doesn't benefit dogs in any way. It doesn't advance dog training. If there was some way to get together somehow.

Victoria (20:53)

Yes, I agree. I agree that. Mm-hmm.

Steve Dale (21:06)

to come up, but I understand your point and agree with it that, okay, if you come together, how do you compromise when it comes to using aversive methods? You can't say they can be aversive, but only so much aversive. You're shaking your head no, and I would too. So I understand that, but there's got to be a way to be more civil about all of this because this, as I said, does not benefit dogs. It doesn't benefit the profession.

I'm concerned that as more people see all this stuff online they'll say, I'm just not going to train my dog. I can do it myself. And to a degree that's true, but they can't socialize their dog in their own living room. You know, I mean, the dog training to me, particularly puppy classes are about opening a window of communication from one end of the leash to the other and getting questions answered from someone you trust. Who is that dog trainer?

so that's what it's all about for me. But having said that there are trainers out there that are even using shock collars on puppies. have a video on trainer doing that, you know, so, ⁓ and more.

Victoria (22:13)

Well, there are big organizations out there, very big organizations that will put shock collars on puppies right from the word go. It's so disgusting. But what you're saying about even within the camps, even within the punitive training community, there's definitely a lot of back and forth between trainers there and in the positive camp too.

Steve Dale (22:16)

exactly.

Victoria (22:31)

Here's an example. I'm very excited to share my courses with people. so every so often we market certain courses. So I'm marketing my brave courses and we go out on Facebook.

Steve Dale (22:42)

Mm-hmm. And your courses are wonderful, by the way. They are great value,

Victoria (22:49)

They are. We had even a highly respected trainer come on and comment really negatively about a course that that trainer had not even seen saying things that we should do that's actually in the course but it was just bizarre and I'm like wait a second you are an author you are highly respected you've done incredible work with animals

Steve Dale (23:03)

Hmm.

Victoria (23:24)

You're somebody that I look up to and respect, yet you come onto what is essentially an advertisement selling my Brave course and comment on it when you haven't even seen it. That's, that to me was like, wow, that's some crazy shit right there.

Steve Dale (23:46)

It's social media, you know? I can't explain all that, but yeah, people feel more empowered, of course, when they're not person to person.

Victoria (23:56)

I wish Steve that this could change. I don't know if it will. I think certainly with just the way politics is as well, the way the world is, it seems to celebrate the more unpleasant side of life. And we've just got to keep singing from the same book and saying, look, we can be good. We can be good with animals. We can be kinder to each other. And in fact, it's much better if you do. So.

But let's talk about, when we come back from the break, some new science that's just come out regarding cats. Because this is very exciting. All right. We'll be back with Steve Dale after the break.

I'm back with Steve Dale. What is this new news about cats?

Steve Dale (24:52)

there's so much news about cats. Okay. So I happen to be for over 20 years on the board of directors of the Every Cat Health Foundation. The Every Cat Health Foundation is a nonprofit that supports funding for studies for cat health and has been doing so for nearly 60 years. I have not been on the board that long, but I've been on the board like 20 years. I guess they can't get rid of me. don't know. But pretty much everything. If you have a cat,

Victoria (24:54)

Okay, tell me.

Steve Dale (25:20)

you ever go to the veterinarian, which I hope you do, pretty much everything that veterinarian discusses about your cat may diagnose in your cat. Once came from studies that we have done, everything from what we know about hyperthyroid disease in cats to what we know about one of the heart diseases called dilated cardiomyopathy. So the great story about that is before my time.

Cats were getting this heart disease. They were dying, a lot of them. Others were just going blind. It was not a good thing. And the researchers at that time said, we've got to come up with a magic pill or something like that. And one researcher said, I don't think there's enough of an amino acid, which dogs and humans can create on their own, but cats cannot, called taurine, in their diet. And it turned out Dr. Paul Pion, that veterinarian, was correct. And we...

funded the study and now every cat food on the planet for decades has enough taurine because we know how much taurine cats require and we now know that they cannot produce it on their own. Those are just two examples. I can give you a hundred and two more. So over the past couple of years, this has happened. Feline infectious peritonitis or FIP. Fatal, mostly in kittens. And here's what FIP is. ⁓ Kittens commonly get a coronavirus.

The coronavirus, and we all know coronavirus is now right. Yep, yep, as you back away even say COVID. Yeah, no. And rightly so. So, but this coronavirus and coronaviruses are generally species specific unless they mutate, jump to another species. But cats, feline coronavirus is pretty much in domestic cats, pretty much benign. If indeed they get sick at all or show any signs of illness at all,

Victoria (26:51)

COVID. Mm-hmm. Yeah, from the microphone. Yep.

Steve Dale (27:18)

They have the runs for about a day. So by the time your veterinarian calls you back after you call the vet, the cat's fine. The kitten is fine, except a percent of kittens. We don't know what that percent is. ⁓ there's a mutation that happens inside the cat, a technical term here, funky mutation that happens. And it turns into transforms into an immune mediated disease. We don't know for sure. And I don't want to go into the weeds on this, but we, we have some idea as to

Why some cats? This happens to and some kittens, mostly kittens, but not exclusively. This doesn't happen to. When it has happened, and there are several forms of FIP, also hard to diagnose for years. So the Every Cat Health Foundation has been funding studies way back before I joined the board. When I joined the board, there was a real big push and Dr. Niels Petersen, UC Davis, brilliant, brilliant veterinarian, by the way.

A lot of what we know about brachiosophallism in dogs came from his research. So it's not only cats that he has studied over the years, but he was determined to find, first of all, to understand FIP. What I just explained wasn't even understood back in the 1960s and 70s. And then what to do about it. before the pandemic, two years or so before the pandemic. ⁓

he said to our scientific advisory board, I think I've got it. Well, maybe not exactly like that, but there was a drug that he found that was ineffective for the Ebola virus in people. So the pharma company had a lot of it on their shelves and said, I think this will work maybe in kittens that have FIP. Study was done, it worked. Another study was done and it worked. And another study was done and it worked.

Victoria (29:04)

Wow.

Steve Dale (29:10)

so that's amazing, right? We presented at a veterinary meeting at UC Davis, ⁓ in 2019. I was the guy. And I still get emotional when I talk about this. ⁓ I was the guy who looked into the audience of hardened veterinarians from all over the world. Anyone who studied FIP on the planet was invited to this event. And I got to make the announcement that.

All of the experts in this room have now indicated FIP will now be considered treatable and no longer fatal. And it is treatable. But there's lots of side notes to the story. One of them is this. When the pandemic hit, that was caused by a coronavirus. And antibiotics, we have lots of. Antivirals, not so much.

Victoria (29:47)

Wow.

Steve Dale (30:06)

And our government, was looking for an antiviral that might work. And somehow, some way, they came across Dr. Peterson's studies about this particular antiviral drug.

remdesivir. And if it wasn't for cats, if it wasn't for Cats Getting FIP, the organization I belong on, and if it wasn't for Dr. Niels Peterson, thousands of people, many thousands, countless thousands across the world would have died of COVID-19 and not have lived where remdesivir at least contribute to save their lives. And remdesivir is still being used.

Victoria (30:46)

That's incredible. That is incredible.

Steve Dale (30:50)

And I'm the guy also who had the honor to tell Dr. Tony Fauci about this story. And a couple of times, but on one occasion I got to tell him the story and he said, yeah, I heard about something like that and I believe it. And we chatted a little more about how this drug really does work.

Victoria (30:55)

You spoke to Dr. Fauci.

So not only is it saving the lives of cats, it's saving the lives of people and how important science is. How, mean, that just shows, isn't it?

Steve Dale (31:19)

Yes.

I joined the Every Cat Health Foundation. They were called the Wynn Feline Foundation at that time, just rebranded somewhere along the way. But I joined the organization because I had a cat that died of what is the most common cause of death or thought to be in indoor cats between the age of about two to 10 or 11. Still occurs a lot in cats that are older than the age of two or 10 or 11, but then so does kidney disease and so do cancers. That is a different kind of heart disease than the one I spoke about earlier.

called feline hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. ⁓ One of a couple of things happened to these cats that have this. One is they live out a normal, perfectly normal life. But another is they suddenly die. Lots of cats just seem fine and they drop the next day and nobody knows why. That is generally, maybe they got into a poison, maybe it's feline heartworm, but generally that is the reason why. They throw what's called a thromboembolism.

So their back legs don't work. It's like a stroke sort of like event in cats. And that's all caused by the heart actually. Or they go into heart failure, in which case they're going to die. It's just a matter of making them comfortable. And I had a cat that suddenly died. And I said, I've got to begin a fund, which we began, I don't remember years very well, but over 20 years ago.

And I was at the North American Veterinary Conference or VMC, VMX a couple of years ago, walking down the hallway, these people tapped on my shoulder and they said, thank you. And I said, ⁓ okay, you're welcome. Who are you? And they had an Irish accent. They were from ⁓ a company called Trivium in Ireland. And they said, we've got a drug that we do believe will ⁓ cure. They didn't use that word though.

Victoria (33:03)

you

Steve Dale (33:18)

that will treat successfully cats with feline hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, the heart disease that you funded all those studies for over the years. And because of those funded studies, we now understand this disease, which wasn't even understood at that point completely. And now we have a drug for it. If you catch it before the cats go into heart failure. And that drug has now been approved by the Food and Drug Administration Center for Veterinary Medicine conditionally. So that is

It's called by the way, Felicin 1. And it is kind of a miracle because people would actually write us and say, stop spending your money on this stuff. There's never gonna be a treatment for heart disease. There's never gonna be a drug for that or for FIP. And it turned out I'm glad we continued.

Victoria (34:08)

Now, moving on to another drug, Librella. was, right, of course, it's been used in cats for many years. And in the last couple of years, certainly in this country for dogs, my own dog, because of her arthritis, had osteoarthritis, we used Librella for her. And I have to say it was an absolute game changer, a miracle drug until it wasn't.

Steve Dale (34:11)

yeah. Or still unsee it, which is the feline version.

Victoria (34:36)

It stopped her pain. She was so much more comfortable. I mean, we knew physical therapy, everything else. And Librella really was the thing that just was like, my gosh, this is incredible. Three months into it, I started noticing that there was, that her back left leg wasn't catching up with the rest of her. It was a little delay. And I thought, huh, that's odd. So I took her to the vet.

And she was a bit suspect. She's like, I think this potentially could be neurological. It got worse. We stopped the libretto. My vet's recommendation was to stop the libretto. And then after about a month, she was a lot better. Her leg started working again. It never got back to a hundred percent. And then we learned she had IVDD, Invertebral Disk Disease

But she hadn't before she'd been on Librela. And you could say, well, on Librela, then they feel like they're four years old again and they're running around, but she really wasn't. We were very careful with her jumping up or jumping down things or running around. And cause we knew just cause you feel good, you know, it doesn't mean to say that you can do all of this stuff. And I started to really get concerned doing a lot of research, but also seeing how

Steve Dale (35:46)

Mm-hmm.

Victoria (36:05)

many other dogs were getting neurological issues as well. The side effects were numerous. Now there's this article that's come out in the Daily Mail about this veterinarian in the UK who was sounding the alarm against Librella, especially in dogs and saying that not only thousands of dogs died after having it, but that it's causing a lot of neurological issues. I wonder if you could talk to me about it. I know you're not a veterinarian, but you, because of your job,

You know a lot about this stuff. So I wonder if you could speak about the Librela and your recommendations, your experiences with it.

Steve Dale (36:52)

Our dog was on Labrela too. ⁓ And our dog was, we don't know, 17, maybe 18 at the time, ⁓ probably 17 when we put her on it. And she died eight, nine months later. ⁓ Labrela didn't make a huge difference for her. So for some dogs, this monoclonal antibody, we should explain that by the way, it is not a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory, it works differently.

Victoria (37:16)

Yes.

Steve Dale (37:21)

⁓ And that is beneficial too, because our dog could not have taken, because of our dog's GI issues, a ⁓ non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug of any kind. So, Librella was the safest bet and I was cheerleading, you know, when I was so excited that it came out. ⁓ Because Celencia, the cat version came out, like our terribly arthritic 20-year-old cat passed away, and days after is when Celencia, the cat product came out.

So I was trying to get advance, advance, advance. I was just about to get the advanced product because of what I do. And ⁓ our cat passed away. ⁓ So we were never able to use it for Roxy, our cat. ⁓ One day in the middle of the night, ⁓ three in the morning or something, we heard our dog who was in bed with us, our nine pound or so chihuahua mix ⁓ named Hazel.

who was a hero. did animal assisted therapy work at a children's hospital. She had been retired for about a year and a little over a year. And she was having difficulty breathing so much so my wife and I, we both heard her and we rushed her to the ER and we said goodbye. Probably a heart valve broke. Now,

Could we blame Labrela for that? You know, sometimes, particularly with older animals, I remember there was a product out, I won't say the name of the product, because that's not relevant, but I was one of those that looked at each and every food and drug administration report. And anything in the United States, I don't know about the UK, in the United States, anything that people report, and it's good that people do report, whether it be a veterinary professional or a pet parent.

Victoria (38:49)

I see.

Steve Dale (39:16)

goes into the quote file. And I read everything about this particular drug. And one was a German Shepherd dog that received this particular product, then went back to the pickup truck on the way home. And they made a sudden stop, fell out of the pickup truck, and the next car hit the dog. Somehow I remember it was a German Shepherd. And the owner said it's because of the drug.

because the dog had always been able to stand up in the pickup truck before, you know, but it was still reported as an adverse event, you know, because that's the law in America that anything is reported as an adverse event, then each one is looked at. Now, I am not suggesting that Labrela doesn't cause neurological issues because there have been reports of that. And there's now a black label, I think, on the product indicating as such. it?

Victoria (39:47)

⁓

okay. I wish they'd been before I gave it to my dog, is all I can say.

Steve Dale (40:14)

Well, you still might have, because for older dogs, are only, and people, I suppose, for sure cats, there are only so many choices, fewer choices for cats. And we also now know that in cats, osteoarthritis occurs far, far more often than we ever thought. I mean, it was thought, they're small, they don't get arthritis. Maybe if they're overweight, that's about all. And that's not the case.

Victoria (40:25)

Yeah. Yeah.

Steve Dale (40:44)

In fact, one might say, might, that arthritis ⁓ occurs even more often in cats than dogs. That's how prevalent it is in cats. But cats don't always tell us they're in pain. So a lot of people just don't know. It took veterinary studies and radiographs or x-rays to figure all this out. But, and I could cite several studies that have shown it and all that. ⁓ In dogs, we've always known it occurs.

But probably more so than we think for a lot of reasons. One is simply that dogs are living longer. We have more overweight dogs than ever before as well. And there's a genetic predisposition in many breeds and on and on as to why osteoarthritis occurs. ⁓ Would this have happened if your dog weren't on Labrela? I wish I could say, you know, does Labrela in dogs create side effects for some dogs? Sure, it does. And I don't mean to say that cavalierly because it's not something to be cavalier about.

Having said that, has it also helped the quality of life of millions, many millions of dogs out there? And the answer to that is yes. We know that, and including your dog for a time. until it didn't, apparently. ⁓ So for our dog, I sincerely doubt Labrella had anything to do with our dog's heart. ⁓ Small dog, ⁓ heart issues, mitral valve issues, really, really common.

Victoria (41:51)

Yes.

Steve Dale (42:13)

Yeah. Would that heart valve have broken? Did librela have something to do with it somehow, some way? I don't know. ⁓ I just don't know. ⁓ Probably not. You know, and when you're giving any drug to a dog that has comorbidities, you're... I don't want to say you're taking a chance. You're not doing that. And the intent is the best one. But if you think about it, it's no different than people with other...

illnesses, which are called morbidities. And an older dog, like a geriatric person, or an older cat is likely to have those statistically, sometimes not even identified. So I because the dogs can't tell us, right, that something else is going on. So I don't know the answer to that. But

Victoria (43:00)

Yeah.

And we just do our best. That's all we can do is to do our best and keep our dogs as comfortable as possible and our cats.

Steve Dale (43:07)

Yeah. But the problem is 

Okay, so you're Victoria Stillwell, but you're also human. And the problem I sense is that you feel a bit guilty and you shouldn't, but you shouldn't. And it's easy for me to say you shouldn't, you know, because I'm not in your shoes, but I've been in your shoes and you you just did what you thought was best. And at the same time, your dog did have a wonderful...

Victoria (43:21)

Sure.

Yeah. Yeah.

Steve Dale (43:38)

Look, your dog got to live with Victoria Stillwell for Christ sakes.

Victoria (43:42)

Well, she came to us at six months old and she died when she was 15. So she did have a really good long life. But you know, it's hard. We don't want to let go of these amazing animals and they have too short a life for us. and right now we are now a dogless household and we have not been without an animal since 2001. So my husband lived and I lived in Midtown Manhattan.

Steve Dale (43:50)

Yeah.

Exactly.

Victoria (44:10)

And during 9-11 and we were there in Midtown. And at that time I was volunteering with the ASPCA and a lot of animals came in after 9-11 because what a lot of people didn't realize is that many of the victims and the people that perished in the Twin Towers and the other areas ⁓ had pets. And so there was this influx of pets into the municipal shelters.

Steve Dale (44:38)

Mm-hmm.

Victoria (44:39)

We got our cat, Angelica, probably a week after. And it was all very strange in the city still after that had happened. And Angelica came to us as a foster. She was a Maine Coon and she never left. She never left, we keep her. We call her our 911 cat. We don't know where she came from, but we were able to give her an amazing home. So we haven't been without.

Steve Dale (44:56)

You failed!

Yeah.

Victoria (45:07)

an animal of some kind since 2001. It is very bizarre in 26 to now be without an animal. I'm not ready to adopt yet. I'm not even ready to foster yet. And schedule wise, it's not right now conducive to that. But it's just odd.

Steve Dale (45:31)

Yep.

Victoria (45:34)

We live our lives with these animals. They make our lives so much better and hopefully we can make their lives as good as we can, which is one of the reasons you and I do what we do. But it's tough when they're not around anymore.

Steve Dale (45:46)

Yeah, yeah, I hear you. mean, we don't have a pet. We have a cat who's very much a part of our lives. And you could find our cat Groucho on TikTok. Groucho underscore the funny cat. In fact, I'll tell you something. The guy who plays Groucho all over America, he does other things, too, as an actor and is so loved, beloved by the Groucho, by the Marx family that his

Victoria (45:54)

Groucho!

Steve Dale (46:16)

son and his daughter Groucho son and Groucho's daughter made this guy the what do they call it the not the undertaker of his will the ⁓ officiant or something like that of his will the He oversaw everything in their finances the daughter and the son who didn't talk to one another by the way But they made him both of them individually the guy who is in charge

Victoria (46:31)

Right.

Steve Dale (46:46)

of and the Groucho letters, which are very famous. ⁓ Yes, yeah, I also I almost said executioner, but that's not. Yes, the executor of the wills. Thank you very much for that. ⁓ And. He still plays Groucho all over the place, so he was playing Groucho in Chicago. I happen to know him. He's a friend and he came to our house where Groucho met Groucho.

Victoria (46:49)

So the executors you're meaning. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yes, yeah, very different meaning. Groucher McGroucher, how awesome is that?

Steve Dale (47:13)

Yeah,

yes. So my friend put on the Groucho glasses and did this and all that. And if you know who Groucho Marx is, you're too young to even know.

Victoria (47:18)

Yeah.

No, no, no, I know who Groucho, I mean, yes, it's, yes, it wasn't part of my life as a child and everything, but I definitely knew of them, knew of their movies. In fact, my husband who's also, has been an actor for many years was in a show where they were talking about the Marx brothers. Yeah. Yeah. So.

Steve Dale (47:26)

You

Cool, I love that. So ⁓ yeah, when our dog passed, ⁓ we're out all the time because in my other hat, I go to the theater a lot, I cover entertainment here and ⁓ we enjoy going out to dinner. And it was tough with a, I don't know how old she was for sure, but nearly 20 year old dog and a small dog. So her bladder was only so big even at her best. So you had to be home.

and ⁓ or come home. If you were going to be gone half the day and going to the suburbs here in Chicago where I am, that took half the day just to get there. Yeah, so we would need someone to come in to take her for a walk and all that. know, yeah. Yeah, but I miss it. I miss

Victoria (48:18)

Yeah, right.

So it definitely is easier in that respect, but then there's that, my God. I mean, even just last night and I went to bed and normally she would be so excited because bedtime, was, you know, I go to bed around 10, 30, 11, but she was always from six 30, like, okay, is it time? Are we going? She just loved it. was so just slept on the bed. She loved it. She was all safe and cozy. That's tough. I don't, I don't like being without her there and

One day we will get another dog. Not right now though. So, you know, our lives change and you know what Steve, we've come to end of this podcast, but yeah, we have, we have. You are just such a light in this world and this animal world because you've put yourself on the line many times, but you advocate for dogs and for cats. You speak all over the world.

Steve Dale (49:03)

No! No! No-

Yeah.

Victoria (49:23)

and you're their ambassador. And I just want to thank you. also want to thank you that now, you you've always helped kids as well, but now Ask the Dog is helping and will continue to help children. We've always got to ask the dog. We've got to listen to dogs and you are, you're helping do that. And I just want to say thank you for all the work you do. Cause I know it hasn't always been easy as well, Steve. Certainly when you get pushed back, but you're always writing. You've got your great radio show.

You're speaking, you're authoring books. I mean, I don't know where you have the time, but you do. And now on TikTok, if people want to learn about cats, you've got to follow Groucho. You're doing it all, but thank you.

Steve Dale (50:06)

And

thank you for that. people can get my newsletter stevedale.tv, the website is stevedale.tv and the book is available at Amazon or wherever your books are sold. And Victoria, same back at you. know that, you know, one day it's a live stream. We should just go on the road together. I know. It works.

Victoria (50:25)

Right? I mean, wouldn't that just be fun? We need to get a sponsor.

So get us a sponsor, Stephen, then we can talk about dogs and cats and we can continue to change the world. And of course, there's nobody who announces me better than you. Whenever I come on your radio show, this is how you announce me.

Steve Dale (50:43)

Here she is, Victoria Stillwell from It's Me or the Dog.

Victoria (50:50)

I mean, come on, I can't ask for better than that.

Steve Dale (50:53)

So do you ever take public transportation in Atlanta? Okay, so in New York, next time you get on the subway, I wanna go with you so I could say that. Here she is.

Victoria (50:56)

Not in Atlanta, no. In New York, of course, we just ride subways all the time.

my gosh. Well, no, nobody, you know,

nobody would notice it because everybody's so crazy there anyway. just be like, this is another day in New York on the subway. All the crazy shit happens here. Right. Steve, thank you so much for joining me.

Steve Dale (51:09)

Yeah

That's true. True enough. too different than Chicago.

Love you, thank you.

Victoria (51:25)

I knew that you would love this guest and I do think, gosh, that we need to have more people on here talking about cats because we can't neglect the cats. And so many of us trainers, when we are going into households, we're also going to households with cats. So I love the fact that Steve was able to join us today and give us that amazing news about the incredible advances that science is making to help our feline friends with many of the medical conditions that they have. So.

Thank you so much for joining me on this podcast, for giving us your time yet again, and take care and I'll see you on another podcast.