An in-depth look at separation anxiety with Malena DeMartini

Separation anxiety expert Malena DeMartini joins Victoria to explore the causes, symptoms, and effective treatment strategies for canine separation anxiety. They explore how behavior modification, management, and professional help can improve your dog’s quality of life.

Guest Links:

• Malena DeMartini's Website
• CSAT Certification Program
• Find a CSAT Trainer Near You

• Solve reactivity with Victoria's powerful course on Positively.com: Help! Stop Reactivity. Learn more & enroll here.

• Launch or level up your career as a professional dog trainer with the Victoria Stilwell Academy. Learn more here.

• Launch or level up your career as a professional dog trainer with the Victoria Stilwell Academy. Learn more here.

• Solve behavior problems and find tools to help live your best dog life at Positively.com.

Transcript

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TRANSCRIPT:
Victoria Stilwell (00:01.726)

Do I have a guest for you today! If you are a trainer, animal care professional or a guardian, you are going to want to listen to what my next guest has to say. She is a leading separation anxiety expert and has been focusing on separation anxiety since 2001. Her name is Malena DeMartini. She's a certified trainer and counselor, a certified dog behavior consultant, she is specialized exclusively in canine separation anxiety. She's worked hundreds of cases, I think thousands of cases by now, constantly innovating to find better ways to treat the condition and to support guardians and trainers and rescues and shelters. She speaks all over the world. She has written two books, Separation Anxiety and Dogs: The Next Generation of Treatment Protocols and Practices, which came out in 2020. And then Treating Separation, Anxiety and Dogs, which is 2014. She has blogs, she writes for magazines. I mean, oh my goodness. And you're gonna want to hear everything she says because I have so many questions to ask you, Melena. It is, it is, I mean, I think we could be here for like five hours, but I won't keep you that long. Anyway, welcome. I'm so glad you're here.

Malena DeMartini (01:28.14)

Victoria, what a lovely, lovely and I'm now blushing type of introduction. But thank you. Thank you for having me and thank you for providing such invaluable content to your audience, be they professionals or dog guardians. It is so, so important that we get good information out there.

Victoria Stilwell (01:49.01)

We're all on that quest and I'm so excited to have you here today because there's so much information, disinformation, confusion about what separation anxiety is, about what it's called. You hear things like separation anxiety, separation distress, isolation distress, abandonment issues.

You hear people say, well, separation anxiety can only be diagnosed by a veterinarian or a veterinary behaviorist, that it is a diagnosable condition. And so can you clear this up for us and for everybody listening? What is separation anxiety?

Malena DeMartini (02:33.806)

I'm so glad you asked this question because I really feel like there's considerable confusion because there's so many differing types of terminology to describe a dog who struggles with what I will refer to later as a phobia about being alone. The terminology is interesting because separation anxiety

is what is most familiar to the general public. And it has been termed that for a long time. I feel like it's a little bit of a misnomer. And I'd prefer that we were talking about separation phobia or alone time phobia, but that's not for me to decide. There are so many acronyms and ways to use the verbiage and terminology. The lexicon is quite complex.

But at the end of the day, as long as we are all referring to a dog who struggles with alone time, and when I say alone time, I mean in their home environment with nobody home, then we are talking about the same issue. Now I want to make one clarification. You mentioned separation distress or isolation distress or isolation anxiety. That has become

somewhat popularized recently in the last maybe decade or so. And I think there is an important distinction in some ways, but I want to give a little detail on that. So separation anxiety as it was typically used was indicative of a dog who struggled when alone, but when their primary caretaker was gone. So in other words, if

the neighbor came over and pet sat, the dog still struggled when the primary caretaker was gone. Isolation distress, on the other hand, has been familiarized as being a dog who struggles when entirely alone, but pretty much any warm body that stays with that dog will do and that they can be comfortable in that environment. The interesting thing is that

Malena DeMartini (04:50.835)

It sounds very clinical and sounds very black and white, but there's quite a spectrum. Most dogs are not all the way far to the left on the separation anxiety side or all the way to the far right on the isolation distress side. Some dogs prefer their caregiver but can be okay with someone else. Some dogs really need their caregiver there, but there's ways that can be mitigated.

Ultimately, the terminology that we use and the descriptions are important insofar as we are using the same language to describe what we are determining as the issue. And the distinction there, when a dog can be left alone with a friend, a neighbor, a pet sitter, it does create a little bit of an easier management scenario, which I assume we'll talk about a bit.

But other than that, protocol-wise, behavior modification-wise, we're still looking at the same general issue and concern.

Victoria Stilwell (05:58.128)

And why? Why are there some dogs that have this, that experience this, which is anything from mild anxiety to panic, literally panic. Why do some dogs have this and others don't? Is this genetics? Is this a learned behavior? Is this because of trauma? Is it abandonment issues? Why?

Malena DeMartini (06:24.717)

We love this question. And I think it's important that people hear this. We know a lot about what does not cause separation issues. We know very little about actual causation. have identified, or the research has identified a particular haplotype. So for lack of a better term, a genetic marker that is associated with separation anxiety. There are also

sort of supposed ideas about trauma, past trauma, particularly during puppyhood, et cetera. But none of those are entirely confirmed. So what's so interesting about this behavior is it seems almost indiscriminate and therefore likely genetically influenced. I want people to understand, though,

Just because something may have a genetic or epigenetic influence doesn't mean the behavior can't be modified.

Victoria Stilwell (07:27.932)

Right. And I think that is important. And when, and I do want to talk about how you do that in a little while, but to understand what's going on in the brain of a dog. So let's say if separation anxiety really is mild anxiety to panic, what is going on when that person leaves and that dog is left by themselves? What, what is

Malena DeMartini (07:31.362)

Yes.

Malena DeMartini (07:35.948)

Sure.

Victoria Stilwell (07:56.742)

What is separation issues? I mean, you could have a dog that's just, what, bored and so is showing and is barking and showing destructive behavior. And because it's just bored, it's like, okay, well, what can I get into? So how do you know the difference? You still come back to a house where the neighbor says your dog is barking all day and it's destroyed everything. How do you know the difference?

Malena DeMartini (08:08.162)

Yeah.

Malena DeMartini (08:19.039)

Absolutely. I think a few things. First of all, knowing the difference is typically fairly pretty, you know, fairly clear when we observe a dog on video. The looking at the entire dog is so important. So a dog that's vocalizing or chewing up the table leg could absolutely be bored, but their overall body language and behavior that is

associated with the chewing or the barking, et cetera, is going to look very different than the dog who is experiencing panic. And I like people to understand, because I think empathy is so important for these animals, I like people to understand that this is truly akin to a phobia. by definition, a phobia is

very irrational to those of us that are not experiencing it, right? Like, well, I always come home. Why is my dog so upset? But it's very real to the individual who is experiencing it, which in this case is the dog.

Victoria Stilwell (09:28.894)

So when people call this kind of behavior overblown or overreacting or you know the dog's being dramatic, can you help those people better understand what the dog is experiencing?

Malena DeMartini (09:49.326)

Absolutely. These dogs, know, particularly for those of you that have ever experienced a panic attack, I just mentioned this phobia. Imagine if you are afraid, terrified, phobic about flying on an airplane or about public speaking or any, you for me, spiders, bugs, forget about it. I can't handle them. I just cannot handle them.

Victoria Stilwell (10:10.588)

Yeah, same. Yep.

Malena DeMartini (10:16.073)

And your mouth gets dry, you may tremble, your heart races, you may have all sorts of involuntary physiological responses. And when people are looking at a dog when home alone that is experiencing these issues, they're seeing the barking, the destruction, or the urinating or defecating when alone, or many of those sort of indicators. And understandably,

Those are an inconvenience to us as guardians, but the real thing that we need to be looking at is the absolute physiological terror that these dogs are experiencing. That panic is so profound in many of these dogs that they absolutely aren't overreacting or blowing up, blowing smoke or whatever.

And this has nothing to do with whether this is a good dog or not. This is not a naughty dog. This is a dog that's terrified. And as a result of that terror is physiologically displaying all of these outward manifestations.

Victoria Stilwell (11:32.614)

Now, the causes of this, as we talked about, as you said, there could be genetic causes for this behavior. It's actually really difficult to determine the cause, but people do say that dogs that come from shelters are more likely to experience separation issues than dogs that don't. Is that true? I don't think, I don't know if it's based in any kind of scientific fact.

It's just that thing on the grapevine.

Malena DeMartini (12:05.749)

Yes, it is that thing on the grapevine. And I would say that that is true, not the statement, but the perception that dogs from shelters have more behavior problems than dogs that aren't from shelters is a common belief, common thread. And I'll speak only to separation anxiety, but the research actually indicates

There are some conflicting bits of research on it, but the research actually indicates, and certainly my anecdotal content and data that I've collected for so many years indicates that that's not actually true. It's not actually true. The number of purebred dogs that we work with is almost identical percentage-wise to the number of dogs that have been

acquired from a shelter or rescue. And I think that's so important that people understand. And that's not just for separation anxiety, that's behaviorally across the board, right? Just because you're rescuing a dog doesn't mean that they are going to have behavior problems. But, and just because you are purchasing a well-bred dog doesn't mean they're not going to have behavior problems.

Victoria Stilwell (13:22.91)

Very interesting. So here's another thing that was big after COVID. Everybody's getting puppies. They're at home all day. Then as the world opens up, people are going back to work. They're not in their home all day now with this dog. And now you're starting to see problems. Was there truly an uptick in separation angst cases after COVID?

Malena DeMartini (13:52.184)

So that is a explanation of an answer. won't give it a yes or a no. We did see an uptick in the number of clients that were reaching out for help. However, I don't think that that's representative of an increase in actual alone time fear, phobia, stress. I think what we saw, and I can attest to this myself,

I can't tell you how many news and media interviews I did that were screaming the epidemic that's going to happen after the pandemic. Every dog's going to have separation anxiety. Now, what happened during the pandemic is that there was splashes all over the news. There was tons of content being poured out into the general public and

we also all learned how to use Zoom and in-home cameras. And so people started actually watching their dog and becoming concerned or at least curious about their dog's behavior when left alone. Years ago, when I first started working with separation anxiety, it was very interesting because the only cases...

that would present themselves to me were those cases where the dog was absolutely destroying things, jumping out of windows, second-story windows, or urinating, defecating, getting neighbor complaints and all of that. And what I feel is important about that is that fast forward to post-COVID and the types of cases that we were getting while we were still seeing those cases that were overtly symptomatic, we started seeing people contacting us saying,

my dog is whining or pacing or drooling when I'm home alone. Those things pre all this availability of cameras and technology were never recognized or identified. And so I think we did see an upsurge, but one thing that's so interesting about the pandemic is that these dogs were not left alone typically for quite a period of time.

Malena DeMartini (16:12.651)

Now, I'm sure we'll get into this a little bit later, but the secret sauce to helping a dog that has an alone time behavior problem is to reduce or entirely remove the alone time rehearsal of this behavior so that we can train them and use behavior modification to incrementally show them that alone time is safe.

Victoria Stilwell (16:39.464)

Hmm.

Malena DeMartini (16:39.635)

So that secret sauce of not being alone for a while was not causational, in my opinion, to separation anxiety. And yes, there were a lot of dogs who went from no alone time to I'm back at the office for eight hours. But many of those were, that was just a new acclimation period rather than actual separation issues.

Victoria Stilwell (16:46.044)

Hmm.

Victoria Stilwell (17:03.068)

Very interesting. Very interesting. What you say makes perfect sense. Everybody was going online because that's what we, you know, that's all we could do. Right. And zoom did become, and I, even remember obviously when we filmed it's me or the dog in order for us to be able to see a dog's behavior when we weren't there, we had to set up all these cameras. Like I'm talking like cameras.

Malena DeMartini (17:14.421)

Right.

Malena DeMartini (17:27.628)

Big yeah.

Victoria Stilwell (17:27.686)

Right. And, and, and then just so that we could observe behavior when we're not there. and now you don't, you just can use a little GoPro or you can use whatever a webcam or whatever it is. It's you can just set your phone up if you want and then record behavior while you're not there. Thank goodness for that. Because I do think that that has opened up and it's opened up. It's opened our eyes up to the dog's world when we are not there. And then.

Malena DeMartini (17:39.788)

Mm-hmm.

Malena DeMartini (17:43.935)

Exactly.

Victoria Stilwell (17:57.018)

everything that comes with that. You know, the ways that you can speak to your dog, which I think is just weird because it's like this voice suddenly comes out of the wall. Right. It's, odd and dogs look so confused. but then yeah, you can dispense treats when you're not there and all of this stuff. but yes, I'm, I'm, going, I want to talk about the management of it and then also like some things that people can do. and

Malena DeMartini (18:03.799)

too. Voice of God.

Yes.

Victoria Stilwell (18:24.262)

and when it's important to get a trainer. And so, but we will talk about that and we'll talk about that after our break. so if you're looking at the symptoms, if you think, my dog has separation issues, what are those symptoms? What do I, as a guardian, look at and go, hmm, I think my dog's got a real problem.

and I need to contact somebody that knows about this. What are those symptoms? What should I be concerned about?

Malena DeMartini (18:58.487)

So the most commonly reported symptoms, which goes back to what I was saying, those that are inconvenient to us as guardians are barking, howling, barking, urinating or defecating only when alone, that's a distinction, and destructive behavior when alone. Those are the three most commonly reported. However,

because we have all of this lovely technology that allows us to watch our dogs, there are many other indicators. And those can include everything from soft whining to drooling to pacing to scratching at doors that don't actually cause any destruction, but the dog is panicked and scratching at a door. So one of the things that I recommend most people do is

to get to, you of course we get to know our dogs and what they are from a baseline perspective, right? When I'm sitting home on the couch with my bowl of popcorn, watching a movie, what is my dog doing? Now, when I'm up and about and doing things, what is my dog doing? So we can get a bit of a picture of what that dog's typical behavior is when we are home. If there is a difference and that difference is

is a display of some level of discomfort, distress, fear, or anxiety. I think it's important to minimally start to work on the behavior, even if it's just to sort of, as we often talk about in socialization, even if it's just sort of remedial kind of training, just to get them a little bit more comfortable with alone time.

And then if as we are doing a bit of exposure and we see, wow, this dog starts within moments of the door closing and it continues, whether that's vocalization or any of those other indicators, I think it's important to address it and get help with that.

Victoria Stilwell (21:12.358)

So you go out, you see that your dog pretty much immediately starts. What about if you go out and the dog for about 30 minutes is kind of just not really doing anything, then starts? Is that still the same thing?

Malena DeMartini (21:31.117)

Actually, yes. And I will say it is not a very common presentation. Most of the time when we see a dog that is, let's just call it quote unquote fine for the first 30 minutes or 10 minutes or 20 minutes, whatever it may be, there has been some inadvertent conditioning happening. So for instance, we...

take the recycling out. We go out to the mailbox. We sometimes just run to the corner store to grab a carton of milk. gosh, how archaic that sounds. But right, so we run to the post office to drop off a package. So sometimes we have these short absences and dogs can be sort of anticipatory about you coming back. And so they are maybe not

Victoria Stilwell (22:10.994)

Yes, no worries. Hey, I'm right there with you.

Malena DeMartini (22:30.12)

appearing very outwardly anxious, but I would precaution people to still watch. Like is that behavior sort of on the edge of their seat watching and waiting, standing at the door sort of with anticipation. And if that starts to escalate and turn into then some whining and barking and other types of behaviors, yes, it is absolutely the same type of behavior.

The difference is we have a little wiggle room, right? We have a little wiggle room where, well, so it's okay that I maybe, you know, take a five or 10 minute run down the street, but that doesn't mean that we don't still have the same type of behavior problem that needs the same attention as a dog who absolutely explodes the moment the door is closed.

Victoria Stilwell (23:23.376)

Okay, now back to causes. Here's the question. I know we were talking a little bit about this before we went on air. Do people cause their dogs separation anxiety issues?

Malena DeMartini (23:41.067)

I will follow this answer up, but the answer simply stated is no. In my opinion and in much of the research that is out there, we actually have some incredibly diverse research that shows that spoiling your dog does not cause separation anxiety, feeding your dog extra treats, which hopefully everybody is.

Did you hear me out there? Does not cause separation anxiety. Letting your dog sleep on the couch or on your bed does not cause separation anxiety. Talking to your dog as if they were a human being does not cause separation anxiety. So the way I typically like people to understand this is

Victoria Stilwell (24:10.84)

Yes!

Malena DeMartini (24:34.604)

Please, please, please love on your dog and give them all the affection and adoration that you so choose. That is one of the beautiful aspects of having a dog and being able to share that experience with them. Because not only does it not cause any sort of separation anxiety, it can actually be beneficial for a dog to not have

this sort of disrupted, if for lack of a better term, type of a relationship. Now, nor does that cause separation anxiety, but I mean, we may as well give them all the love and attention because it's so important to me. And I had alluded to this when we spoke for a few minutes before we started, I talked to so many prospective clients per day.

We get a lot of inquiries and we offer a free 30 minute phone call for anybody that has separation anxiety issues. And so we talk to a lot of people. And one of the most common comments, sometimes spoken through tears is, I have ruined my dog. I have caused this problem. I feel so guilty. And I just want...

anybody and everybody who has felt that way, feels that way currently, or has heard someone tell them that it's their fault, goodness forbid, that that is absolutely not the case. We have not caused this problem. Please absolve your guilt because nobody needs that. I understand that feeling and it's a valid feeling, but let's work through that so that it doesn't impact our lives.

nor our behavior modification process.

Victoria Stilwell (26:30.088)

And even in that, you relieve the pressure on that person. Because, because if you do have a dog that you think, my God, I caused this behavior because I gave my dog too much love. I mean, it is still really shocking that there are, and I use that, like I'm doing my air quotes, trainers out there, or people calling themselves trainers that are still saying,

Malena DeMartini (26:34.794)

Yes.

Malena DeMartini (26:50.892)

Hmph.

Malena DeMartini (26:58.902)

Yes.

Victoria Stilwell (26:59.102)

Do not show so much love on your dog. Don't have your dog on the sofa. Don't have your dog on the bed. I mean, if your dog's biting you as you get into bed, that's a different problem, right? The dog really shouldn't be on the bed for a while until you can work on that. But the fact that you're giving your dog a lot of attention and a lot of support is not going to create this situation. And regardless of what you hear other trainers saying,

Malena DeMartini (27:08.854)

That's true.

Victoria Stilwell (27:28.156)

Please do not give your dog less love or support. And I always liken it to a child. And it is. And if my daughter was scared, even though she's a 22 year old, but even when she was what, two, three, I would be, I would make sure I would put my arm around her and I would comfort her and then do the same to my dogs. That's not reinforcing.

Malena DeMartini (27:36.682)

Yes!

Malena DeMartini (27:53.185)

Yes.

Victoria Stilwell (27:57.81)

her, the fact that she's scared or the fact that she's fearful, that's actually going to make her feel better because now she feels safe. Now she feels supported and listened to and validated. And we need to do the same with our dogs. We need to listen to them, support them and validate them. And that's basically what you are saying, isn't it?

Malena DeMartini (28:07.724)

Safe.

Yes.

Malena DeMartini (28:19.308)

100%. That is exactly what I'm saying. And you're absolutely right that the information out there in the inter-world, inter-web worlds continue to say, ignore your dog, don't give them affection, et cetera. And quite frankly, not only should we be helping our dogs learn safety and comfort and support and validation, we

really can negatively affect our animals if suddenly we remove all of this affection and love and attention. That is not only confusing for an animal, human beings included, but it can cause, it can actually cause some stress, maybe not necessarily about alone time, but it can cause some stress if we suddenly remove all that affection that we had previously been giving.

Victoria Stilwell (29:15.826)

Yeah, I mean, it's the same with people, isn't it? Somebody starts to, they remove their affection for you. You're like, okay, what have I done? What's happening? It's awful. It might, you know, obviously we always look at ourselves first and we blame ourselves when it's somebody who does something weird. But yes, of course we're going to look inward and go, my gosh, what have I done? And now why is this person? And then it's going to cause us to become stressed and anxious and all. So, okay.

Malena DeMartini (29:17.993)

Absolutely.

Malena DeMartini (29:23.2)

What have I done? What have I done? Yes.

Victoria Stilwell (29:42.974)

We're going to take a quick break. I'll be back with Melena after that. And we're going to talk about ways you can manage and things that you can do. But also if this is totally above your head, like what help is there out there? All right. I'll be back with Melena in a minute.

Victoria Stilwell (30:06.606)

I am back with Malena de Martini. are talking all things separation, anxiety. This is just incredible information. Thank you so much for sharing it with us. All right. You have a dog now that you are very worried about. What are some, well, first of all, let's talk about the CSATs out there. Because maybe this is something that you shouldn't like.

try and start yourself. And if it doesn't work, then find a CSAT. Maybe it's some, maybe it's something that you go, okay, my dog's got a problem. I'm going to go straight there. So can you tell people about the CSAT or the trainers out there that specialize in separation anxiety?

Malena DeMartini (30:51.232)

Yes, there are absolutely very skilled dog professionals like the certified separation anxiety trainers or CSATs that you were referring to that have been highly educated in how to work with this type of separation behavior. It is really invaluable for so many reasons. You had mentioned, you know, maybe you shouldn't start.

you know, by yourself or should you? One of the things, as I mentioned, I talked to so many prospective clients and one of the things that I hear almost across the board is, well, for the last three months or six months or three weeks even, I've tried this, this, this, this, this, this, and this. And now I'm at my wit's end.

I've depleted my emotional bandwidth, my financial bandwidth. I've spent money on all these different supposed quick fixes. And now I'm desperate. And I want to save people that wheel spinning desperation and encourage people to get help right from the beginning.

even if it is simply to get enough help to teach you as the dog's guardian what kinds of components you need to include in your training in order to set the dog up for success. So yes, absolutely, you really want to find a professional who very much understands the complexities of this behavior.

And this behavior seems simple in some ways. Well, my dog is just worried about alone time, but it is actually quite a detailed, nuanced and complex behavior to work with and modify over time.

Victoria Stilwell (32:56.668)

know a lot of professionals who they when they get a separation anxiety case they're like this is one of the hardest things to work on let's give it to the CSAT over there let's so that's why it's so important for trainers to have their people you know that you can't be experts in everything I mean maybe you are but that's why I always encourage if there is something that you just are not interested in or

There are professionals out there that you can refer to, refer away. And so, yeah, I know a lot of people are like, yeah, I don't do separation cases anymore. I just send them to the CSATs because they can take it over because it is so, it can be so complex. It's a lot more nuanced than you think.

Malena DeMartini (33:45.598)

Indeed. Indeed. And while this may sound insignificant or small, the CSATs are sort of a self-selecting group of people that love that type of detail and nuance and supporting a dog and their person through this process. Right. A lot of dog professionals, understandably so, are like, I like the

You know, I like the big bitey dogs and, you know, we all just have different types of likes and different types of skills. And so if the bitey dogs are your thing, yay you. And there are many people out here, out there that are more than happy, not only happy, but enjoy the process of working with a dog that suffers with separation anxiety.

Victoria Stilwell (34:43.88)

There are, and a lot of my VSPDTs are CSATs and VSA graduates. We always say to our graduates, know, we offer, say, if you want to specialize in this, you go and do the course. It is a separation anxiety certification program, isn't it? And one of my VSPDTs recently took it. She was like, this has just blown my mind.

Malena DeMartini (35:01.417)

It is.

Victoria Stilwell (35:10.554)

She was exhausted because it's not just like, we're just going to sit and take a little. No, this is detailed. It is in depth. You've got to know that you want to do this. Yes. I always say for like the people want to come to do VSA, realize that this isn't just, you know, how to train a dog in a weekend.

Malena DeMartini (35:21.42)

That's right.

Malena DeMartini (35:29.674)

That's right. That's right. And it definitely is. And I'm glad you said that because for those folks that are interested in working with complex behaviors like separation anxiety, you definitely wanna make sure that that is something that really speaks to you because the process of learning about it is comprehensive, deep dive, very, very much, you know.

Victoria Stilwell (35:31.058)

This is more intense.

Malena DeMartini (35:57.792)

focused on intensive work to learn the entire nuance of the process. so it's important that you are the type of person that loves to celebrate even the smallest bits of progress and wins in behavior, and that you also love to counsel, support,

and be compassionate with the human side of the equation.

Victoria Stilwell (36:30.012)

And patience is really, it's really important. You need to be very patient. And the good thing about this though, it's, this is online, isn't it? I think people when they hear that, they're like, wait a second, I don't have to have a trainer come to my house and see this. The beauty of it is because of video, you don't. And actually online is, it doesn't matter where in the world you are, because you can access a C-SAT trainer anyway.

Malena DeMartini (36:31.861)

Patience. Patience, yes.

Malena DeMartini (36:39.967)

That is true.

Malena DeMartini (36:48.959)

You doubt.

Malena DeMartini (36:53.845)

That's right.

Victoria Stilwell (36:56.69)

because this is the beauty of this and it is as effective maybe if not more effective by doing it online.

Malena DeMartini (37:07.115)

I would say it is more effective and I have at least anecdotal data to support that because for the first, well, from 2001 to 2009, almost all of my clients were in person. And in 2009, before we had Zoom and all these things, I switched to fully remote. And the difference in the

ability for the pet parent to stick to the program and get this constant feedback loop that we provide on a day-to-day basis. And the difference in outcome progress and resolution was significant.

Victoria Stilwell (37:54.462)

Very interesting. Okay. So now you have your CSAT trainer. What are some of the things that will happen to begin with management? Before we talk about management of, of what you do, um, I also want to clear this up as well.

What you do when you are in the home with your dog before you ever leave. What sort of management options do you have there? Is it true that, hey, go to the bathroom, close the door? You know, is it like, do you encourage people to do that or not? Is it like, do you start with that separation in the home while you're there?

Malena DeMartini (38:35.019)

So many, many years ago when I was first working with this behavior, I used to start there. And it made logical sense in my mind that if a dog was unable to be separated from their guardian within the home, then it would obviously, in my mind anyway, I thought it's obviously gonna be much harder for them to be separated when the guardian is out of the home. But like science,

things evolve and we learn. And one of the things that I really learned through working with clients and then in particular from one of my own beloved, beloved dogs, her name was Teeny Demartini and she taught me so much. she was, thank you. Yes. She was such a love. And I started to work with her separation anxiety and

Victoria Stilwell (39:18.878)

that's a great name!

Malena DeMartini (39:33.362)

also noticed that she would still follow me into the bathroom or she would still follow me when I would go into the kitchen or into the living room or into the bedroom. But her separation anxiety when entirely alone, of course, was getting better and better and better. So we actually know we were talking about causation earlier. We actually know that

dogs that follow us around the home, as we often refer to them as Velcro type dogs, are not necessarily dogs that also have separation anxiety. There's a wonderful study that was done by Nicholas Dodman and his colleagues that shows that the percentage of dogs that are diagnosed with separation anxiety follow their guardians

I think it's 80 % or something like that. I'm sorry if I don't have the exact numbers, but the percentage of dogs that don't have separation anxiety was like 68%. So it is a very common behavior. So the idea of going into the bathroom and shutting the door and asking your dog to stay in a separate room in the home is really not necessary in order to start on a separation anxiety protocol.

Victoria Stilwell (40:39.204)

and

Malena DeMartini (40:56.763)

And I would say, how many times will you have to go into the bathroom and close the door anyway? So it is sort of built into your just regular life. But yeah, we can absolutely make progress and not need to start with just in the home environment pre-leaving.

Victoria Stilwell (41:17.266)

Yeah, my Chihuahua, God rest her soul, when she was, she would follow me everywhere. I was her person. But when I left, she was fine. She just settled down. mean, truly, she was happy and content and settled down in her bed and went to sleep. But just because she followed me around all day didn't mean that she was going to have a real problem when I left. yeah, so, okay. So some management.

Malena DeMartini (41:25.461)

Yeah?

Malena DeMartini (41:42.453)

That's right.

Victoria Stilwell (41:47.394)

management, right? This is another thing. it's, we were, I mean, you and I have been around for a while. So I think we've gone through a lot of iterations of doing different techniques and things, and have learned with the studies that have come out and also, you know, we're told by mentors or what very different things to do that maybe we don't do now. And that just kind of goes across the board. so.

With the whole management, we know that dogs following us around, we don't have to keep on doing, going to the bathroom and closing the door and doing all of that. But here's the other thing that we were always told to do, which actually did make me feel a bit like, well, isn't this kind of an indicator? Is to leave dogs with their toys or with their...

Kong toys or whatever it was a chew toy. So just before you left, you would give your dog this lovely chew Kong toy bone, whatever, and then you'd go.

Well, then we began to see that maybe that's not the best thing to do. Can you describe now what we used to do and now what you should do now?

Malena DeMartini (43:04.874)

That's right.

Malena DeMartini (43:10.719)

Yes. So absolutely. Not only did we used to do that, give that dog that yummy, wonderful, whatever it was, food toy, before we left, we used to put ourselves in a situation that we were actually setting up a predictable or contingent type of a scenario, right? So dogs would say,

yummy. Here comes my wonderful food toy or bully stick or whatever it may be. And then we would leave. And maybe the first time the dog would be interested in engaging in that food. But very quickly over time, the dog starts to learn whenever that food toy comes out, I get left alone. And it becomes a very

predictable cue for the dog that alone time happens every single time this food item comes out. And not only does that create a problem, which I'll talk about in a second, but with regards to reading body language and all sorts of things, what it really ends up happening to be is

I remember being at a seminar that I was giving Victoria and this woman raised her hand and she was like, know, dumbfounded that we were talking about not setting up that food toy in advance, at least in the beginning of a protocol. And she said, you know, I just followed the information that I had read on the internet and gave my dog a ball that had his kibble in it. And she said, and then about three or four days later, he wouldn't touch it.

So I gave him a Kong that had peanut butter in it. And three or four days later, he wouldn't touch that. So I started to stuff the Kong with stew meat. And then I gave him a bully stick. And so she kept going up and up and up and up in value. And the dog would engage with it initially. And then over a few days would say, as you know, speaking for the dog and a little bit of an anthropomorphism here, but the dog would say, huh, okay, I now know.

Victoria Stilwell (45:17.874)

Wow.

Victoria Stilwell (45:31.964)

I know what you're doing.

Malena DeMartini (45:33.576)

I know what you're doing. And it got to the point that the dog was starting to tremble when she would prepare any food. So that is how powerful predictive elements are, because we're predicting with that food something super scary to the dog. And we really need to protect that. And instead of predicting something super scary with a food toy that we're hoping will distract the dog for a little while,

We need to teach them that alone time is safe first and foremost. Yeah. Yes. Well, know, dogs, is a kind of pause for a minute. I will, I will. So dogs that are terrified of alone time need to learn that alone time is safe. And where we start with that is in

Victoria Stilwell (46:09.209)

Okay, so how do we do that?

Victoria Stilwell (46:15.496)

I know that's a huge answer, but if you could just give us a few pointers.

Malena DeMartini (46:32.683)

tiny, tiny increments of exposure. So for some dogs that may mean literally going to the door and just opening it one inch and the dog goes, uh-oh, uh-oh, what's happening? And the door closes. And with some repetition, the dog starts to go, okay. Well, when my mom goes to the door and opens it an inch, nothing scary happens. I'm okay with that. And over time that opening an inch becomes

stepping out the door for a few seconds and that graduates and graduates over time. I want to make sure that I say right here and now that does not mean that we are going up and up and up linearly every day or in large increments. We have to make sure that the amount of exposure that we're giving to the dog is appropriate for that dog's level of comfort.

Victoria Stilwell (47:31.208)

Yes.

Malena DeMartini (47:31.241)

as opposed to today I did five minutes, tomorrow I'll do 10. That's not tailoring it to what the dog individually needs. So that is absolutely key when we are exposing the dog in small increments that build up over time.

Victoria Stilwell (47:48.772)

Okay so you're building up in slow increments and where where where what is success? Is it when the dog is left or the dog now can be left alone for 15 minutes or are you seeing success as this dog can be left for a minute and is not panicking?

Malena DeMartini (47:58.315)

Malena DeMartini (48:11.219)

I love that you asked this question, Victoria. So most people think success is I'm able to leave my dog for four hours or so and they're not panicking. To me, I understand that that is a slow process. so success is seeing a dog that is able to be alone for a small increment of time, maybe a minute, maybe even less sometimes.

comfortably without any sort of, you know, panic display. And that is success. And then we build on that success to gain more duration. But I really want people to not feel like duration is the end all be all to define success. Success is a dog that no longer is terrified, whether that starts with a few seconds or whether

We're starting with a few minutes depending on the dog. And I also think success is helping the dog to be sort of comfortable in their own skin and sort of self-regulate as they are alone. It's a beautiful process to watch. And I know I said earlier, know, CSATs love doing this stuff. And we do, but I can't tell you.

Victoria Stilwell (49:24.626)

Yeah.

Malena DeMartini (49:36.575)

There's nothing more riveting to me than watching a dog comfortably resting when home alone, when I had previously seen the video of that dog absolutely panicking and terrified. I think it's just, it's a beautiful experience to see that level of distress start to wane and ultimately dissipate like that.

Victoria Stilwell (49:59.204)

Okay. I think this is one of the very big difficulties of dealing with this behavior. There are people that are like, I can't have my dog destroy my house. So they're going to confine them in some way, worst of all, crate them. This, we know this confinement can cause, it can just make everything worse. but how

for people who are like, I have to go to work, yet I don't want my dog to rehearse the behavior. What do they do? What sort of things can they put in place so that the dog isn't alone while you're working through this?

Malena DeMartini (50:46.591)

This is such an important question.

I like to start out by saying two things. Number one, when we talk about not leaving your dog alone for longer than they can handle, for some dogs, literally that means a handful of seconds. That is a temporary request. And when I say temporary, that means it's a request that only lasts as long as the behavior modification until it's complete.

And I would like to remind people of that because you have a choice. If you don't modify the behavior and by in part not leaving your dog alone for longer than they can handle, then it's not a temporary request. Then you have a lifetime of a dog destroying your home, barking, urinating, what have you. I also like to tell people,

how important it is that they understand this is not Milena's arbitrary request to not leave your dog alone. The laws of learning are such that every time we rehearse a scenario or behavior of anxiety, stress, et cetera, we are getting more professional at being stressed and anxious and we're confirming.

that, this was just as bad as I thought it was going to be. And the next time is even just as bad as the last. And so in order to help dogs learn to learn that they are safe when alone, we need to first eliminate alone time. And that's what we're talking about here. And then we start to expose them in these small increments. Now, management management is

Malena DeMartini (52:44.968)

I want to validate people and let them know that I get it. We're asking a lot here. We are. And so I don't want to minimize that in any way, or form. I do, however, want to say that there are many creative solutions to ensure that your dog is not left alone for longer than they can handle for the duration of your training. And that goes from

Victoria Stilwell (52:52.669)

Yeah.

Malena DeMartini (53:13.162)

Everything from your neighbor who has a dog that loves playing with your dog. Hey, can you watch my dog while I go run errands or the friend or family or pet sitter or dog walker or just coordinating or daycare for those dogs that enjoy it and a daycare that is appropriate for the dog. Those are all options. And I typically tell people

don't feel that you need one option. Create this village, if you will, of, know, on every Thursday is my son's soccer game in the afternoon. And so I'm gonna ask such and such friend, cause she doesn't work Thursday afternoons. But Sundays, you know, my mom stays home and cooks at her house. So my dog's gonna go stay with my mom. Now Fridays,

I work all day, so that's gonna be a daycare day for my dog, if that dog enjoys that. And so finding creative solutions, but not just relying, not just putting all of our eggs in one basket, I think is really, important. And the other thing I really wanna emphasize, I'm told often, well, nobody will be able to do that. Absolutely nobody will be able to do that.

Victoria Stilwell (54:12.722)

Right. Right.

Malena DeMartini (54:36.616)

And I can tell you this, this is spoiler alert, I'll be putting some data out there soon. We get so many inquiries about separation anxiety, and we ask them some questions in the questionnaire. And one of them is, will you be able to not leave your dog alone for longer than he can handle for a period of time during the training? The percentage of individuals

that either are already doing it or say yes without even knowing why we were asking is enormous. So many of the individuals are already doing this because they don't want their dog to be barking and destroying and et cetera, et cetera. And they feel terrible that their dog is distressed when alone. So they are already doing it or mostly doing it. And then it's just that little next step to be able to ensure that alone time is.

Victoria Stilwell (55:15.39)

Hmm.

Malena DeMartini (55:35.54)

covered.

Victoria Stilwell (55:37.528)

Malina, just want to say thank you so much for your wisdom, your focus on a behavior that can be truly impactful on life in the negative way. And then obviously once they work with you guys in a positive way, this is a journey that I think people need support on and

Malena DeMartini (56:06.25)

Yes.

Victoria Stilwell (56:07.374)

that that is vital and as you said for us to understand what these dogs are going through that this isn't bad behavior this isn't a dog being naughty or dominant or anything else this is a dog that is experiencing these really real and intense feelings and we need to respect that. So for people who a think I might want to become a trainer

Malena DeMartini (56:29.617)

percent.

Victoria Stilwell (56:37.886)

I might want to be a CSAT. Where do they go?

Malena DeMartini (56:42.74)

So they go to my website under malenadimartini.com. And there is a specific section that says for trainers. And there's a lot of information there about the program. It is an application process. It is an intensive application process because we want to ensure that those that are going to be working with this type of complex behavior are ready to be able to do that.

Victoria Stilwell (57:12.51)

And for clients, for people who are looking for a trainer, where do they go?

Malena DeMartini (57:18.196)

So funny enough, they can also go to malenadimartini.com. And there is a section on the website that says for owners. And there's a lot of information there on looking through and deciding what kinds of support and where to go. I also have a directory on that same website of all of the CSATs. they are, as you had mentioned earlier, the work is done remotely so that you can.

Victoria Stilwell (57:20.318)

You

Malena DeMartini (57:46.42)

find someone anywhere in the world. But if you're looking for someone, let's say that's in your same time zone or something like that, the website has the CSATs listed where you can organize them by time zone and location and language. For those that have languages other than English, that's fantastic. We have many, many CSATs that speak multiple languages.

Victoria Stilwell (58:11.175)

Thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it.

Malena DeMartini (58:16.436)

Thank you, Victoria. This has been exceptionally, exceptionally important to me to be able to get this information out. So I appreciate you.

Victoria Stilwell (58:25.842)

Well, everybody, thank you so much for listening. This has been an incredible hour of information. And this is why I love doing this podcast, because I just bring such incredible people to speak with you and to make us all better. When we know better, we do better. And thank you so much for joining me and you all take care of yourselves and I'll see you again on another podcast. Take care.