Unlocking Supportive Walking with Andrew Hale

Andrew Hale joins Victoria to explore supportive walking and practical strategies for understanding and managing dogs' behavior in challenging environments. They answer listener’s questions and discuss creating supportive and individualized environments for dogs and their owners, to build connection, communication, and trust for better outcomes.

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Transcript

Victoria (00:01.336)

When I say my next guest is back by popular demand, I really mean it because he spoke at the Dog Behaviour Conference and there were so many questions that he couldn't get through them all. So we said we are going to do a podcast so that Andy can answer these questions, but so that people who didn't attend the conference as well can learn a little bit more about supportive walking. So Andrew Hale, I'm so glad you can join me today to answer again the questions that you couldn't didn't have time to get to because there were so many, but also to talk to our listeners about supportive walking and what it is. Yours was one of the best, most well received presentations at the conference. And I think it's because so much of the information was just fabulously practical.

but also you showed these great videos where people really saw, really honed in on what the dog was communicating and how you adjusted your maybe perceived plan to match what your dog needed at that particular time. So welcome first and secondly, please let us know what supportive walking is all about.

Andrew Hale (01:26.633)

hi Vic, it's always great to chat and also to be at the conference because it's a really wonderful space that you've created in that conference and I think we get a lot of new people of course, we also get a lot of people who come year after year because they just love that learning experience and all the fun that you inject into it so I always love talking at the conference. So supportive walking is not a thing as such, it's just what I

called it. But and it takes in a lot of other things that people might already consider. But the important thing for me is a lot of the challenges that we get us to get involved with are on the walk. And the common one is loose leash walking, of course, that kind of reactivity, dog struggling with the traffic, whatever it is. And I think traditionally we have focused in on the task of doing

that particular thing without thinking about the wider pressures on us during the walk. So the supportive bit is supportive for the dog, of course, and we'll look at that a little bit, but also supportive for the client. Are we checking in with them? Are we telling them, actually, we're going to do this route today? How does that feel for you? Or just making sure that everything's okay. And also for us as the professional, making sure that we're trying to set things up to have

the best experience in what can be a very unpredictable environment. From the dog point of view, the talk was quite heavily focused on this notion of how we sensually connect to the world and how that can be different, even different times of the day. We looked at that a little bit with Goose's information about trying to identify the times of the day when the dog might be the most responsive, say, hey, do know, I feel okay this time of day, let's do some stuff that might be a bit tricky.

Whereas another time a day, it might be very hard for them. I think I said at the conference, my husband, there's no point me talking to him until five cups of coffee at about 10 o'clock in the morning, then we can have a conversation. But if I was trying to get him to do stuff before that point, and I get up at like five, half five, so I'm an early bird, right? So for me, it's like, yeah, let's get on with it. You and Kieran will be great kind of together. If you go on vacation, you two can go together.

Victoria (03:40.082)

my gosh, that is too early. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrew Hale (03:49.93)

But yes, that's the point. We all have these different times and these different sensory ways of connecting to the world. There's a nice little video of Molly doing the zoom is because she got her feet wet. We see that a lot, especially with younger dogs. So that was the point about supportive walking. It's just like drawing on a little bit from what we're starting to learn more about very young toddlers on reins now and about how that can, you know, this difference between are we putting a dog on a lead to control their movement or are we putting them on a lead?

to keep them safe while they explore the world.

Victoria (04:23.32)

think that was interesting that bit when you did talk about children on reins. Can you describe exactly what you mean?

Andrew Hale (04:35.251)

So kids on reins, know, a lot of parents use reins with their young toddlers. And a lot of psychologists now have started to identify that for some children where the reins are just used to control their movement, that comes out at a higher level of potential for frustration and tantrums later on.

Whereas parents who have their kids on the reins because they want to keep them safe, but allow them to explore and stop and take on information and all those kinds of things, it seems to be less so. And it kind of makes sense a little bit because that nervous system still has to kind of engage with the world in a way that feels safe. And also to take on the information that's needed, especially with very young children who might not, who might be

not very good verbally communicating yet. Their brains like, this is interesting and this feels great. And what's that over there? I need a bit more time. And we see that a lot with those young dogs. had that lovely video that I've shared many times with Molly, just exploring the environment and telling us stuff. And you can imagine how that brain then would start to get frustrated at very least. So where's that frustration going to come out? Well, for those little kids, it's going to be in the evening and then just out of the blue, they're having these tantrums. it's because they're

so much of their kind of way to kind of engage with the world and feel the world has been controlled. So I think it is an interesting and a valid connection to make when we think about when we put a dog on a lead.

Victoria (06:12.024)

it's going to be some people are going to be like well why are you why are you using children why are you using toddlers I mean kids and dogs are very different and I sometimes when I do compare the two because obviously we know in sciences there's been a lot of great research and studies out there from the cognitive scientists around the world that show that dogs have certain cognitive abilities comparable to two to two and a half year old children and

So when sometimes I say that, some people get offended and they're like, well, you say my child is like my dog. I'm like, they're two very different species. But I think it's very interesting how we see so much of the similarities between them, and especially when it comes to this cognitive abilities. So what do you say to people? Because, you know, you have worked on both sides, as it were, you know, with psychology in people and also with dogs. So

How can you kind of like say, hey, it's okay. We're not saying that children are like dogs, but we're saying we can learn a lot actually from both species.

Andrew Hale (07:17.683)

Well, yeah, and I think this is the thing. think the only lived experience that any of us can truly validate is our own. And we happen to be a human. So I always try and think about things from starting from a human point of view and then see what threads we can reasonably or supportively make with our connection with dogs. What I can tell you is, and anybody who's

studied psychology and maybe a psychology degree, he might be listening, will support this. A lot of what we know, we've learned from observations and studies on animals in relation to our own lived experience about things. We have same nervous system, very similar brain areas. And I don't know how you experienced the world, Victoria. So you're right. I can't necessarily say that that child and that dog are the same, but I think we've got to get to a point of having enough of a kind of a compassionate outlook to think, well,

kind of know what it would feel like though to feel that I don't have any agency in how I move, that I can't process stuff enough for me to feel safe. A lot of the core things on a very basic level are about safety and about how that mammalian brain needs to take on information to look at these things. I take a lot of my inspiration from the progressive side of child development and

It's interesting, as you say, we're getting more and more support to understand our dogs in a similar way. I just don't feel we always have to wait for the science to catch up on it necessarily. think it's not about making really outrageously bold statements. It's just saying, I could see that toddler on the reins and understand that actually that could be very frustrating for that toddler if they're just being controlled and manipulated and not being able to kind of feel safe in that environment as they're being taken through it.

And I can see the same with dogs. The proof's in the pudding there a little bit because as we looked at some of those videos, before we even start a behavioral modification plan or a support plan, we can see a shift in how that dog copes just by giving them the sense of, see what you're doing there and I'll support that movement for you. You want to go high? We'll go high. You want to ground over to the side? We'll go to the side. You prefer to move.

Andrew Hale (09:33.161)

to walk on the left at the moment, we'll do that. Whatever it is that that dog is showing us that they kind of seem to need to do, that sets them up better to do the learning that we might do to give them the skills that we want to provide them with. So I think the proof's in the pudding there, to be honest, just by seeing what we can do with these wonderful animals.

Victoria (09:46.892)

Yeah.

Victoria (09:51.319)

I love that answer and thank you for qualifying that. Okay, so I'm going to go through some questions. Again, for those of you listening, if you weren't at the Dog Behaviour Conference, don't worry because you're going to learn a lot from some of these questions that Andy, unfortunately, didn't have time to get through because there were so many of them. But one of the questions was, how would you work through a situation when there is not an exit available?

So my dog struggles with crossing the street to come home at the end of a walk sometimes. His favorite walk route ends with crossing the street to get home. When we get to the crossing, he often shuts down and refuses to slash is not able to move or even interact with me. He shuts down as in furrowed brow, ears back, whale eye, pretty unresponsive.

Sometimes he can come back around with time or physical attention from me, but not always. Often he's unable to take treats at this time. In this case, when we don't have the choice to turn back around, how can I help him? For context, when I adopted him four years ago, he was too afraid, overwhelmed to walk outside at all. Now he loves most parts of his walks. He has made incredible progress and I want to help him over his last big hurdle. So coming back, crossing the street,

to come home at the end of the walk sometimes. What do you do if there is no exit?

Andrew Hale (11:23.705)

It's always tricky with an individual case because I've not seen the dog, but we can visualize some of that context there. And I think this sounds like a dog. The thing about exits is...

Victoria (11:26.561)

Right, exactly.

Andrew Hale (11:39.538)

We know they're available, but it's whether or not the dog believes they are. And this is a big thing for dogs who are in a vertical, reactive more widely. A lot of the dogs I work with, they've kind of, I feel that they've lost faith in the fact that an exit might be available. And actually just by providing exit cues and building up exits can actually make that sense. yeah, I can actually. I think at that point,

Victoria (12:03.842)

That's the whole reactivity zones approach. That's the whole thing. It's like, yeah, yeah.

Andrew Hale (12:06.887)

That's it. That's the whole thing, isn't it? Because if you think about it from the brain's point of view, I talked about processing engagements and exits, three words that we again come over from the progressive side with children, how we think about how children process and how they engage and how they can feel like an exit from situations and constant engagement when you don't want it and lack of exit. It's no wonder that nervous system stops to believe it's them. And so what happens then? You either give in to it or you fight against it.

That's end of the day. anyway, by the way, Victoria, all this stuff with your wonderful work and the things I talk about, we're not reinventing the wheel here. We're trying to bring a different perspective to pull threads together, to join dots that we need to start joining as we constantly start moving forward to try and understand about that individual lived experience of that particular dog in front of us. I think that's the key, because for too long we've been stuck in this, well, this is how you do this. This is how you do that.

and then we just kind of manage with it. But it's okay to step back and just look at it in these different ways. your zones approach is really helpful for people because it allows them to think about the observations they're making and what they're doing and whether it's actually supportive or not. come back to this case. think when the dog is in that point, it's already a bit, know, something has happened for that dog quite severely in that moment.

Victoria (13:25.132)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrew Hale (13:34.217)

So you're right, trying to give them food, trying to give them exits, they're already in that situation until they can come round enough that little window of kind of clarity for them to be able to like the lady said, I guess it the lady that the correspondent said, sometimes the dog can come out of it. I will be thinking about what are the signs we're seeing from that dog as we're approaching that situation? What does it look like in a different junction? What does it look like if we take a different way home? Seeing whether that...

little legs, it's sometimes going forwards, going back a bit, going forwards, coming back a bit, sometimes giving the child the chance to be able to move to the side, to stay there until the crossing is free, so they don't have to be there, the position. It's about almost rewinding that story to even 10 minutes before then, and then starting to see what that conversation looks like. That's the key for me. At that point, we're already in a bit of crisis point, I think. So it's quite an interesting case because

what the correspondent is saying, it is specifically that crossing at that time. Why? There's got to be a reason, there's got to be a history there, there's got to be something to consider. And so yeah, think that's the point. Exits are always available, it's whether or not the dog believes they are. That's the key. One little thing, yeah.

Victoria (14:50.306)

Yeah. And that's where trust, that's where trust is really built up, isn't it? And almost like a predictability, dogs being able to predict, they have enough agency. I think we don't know what happened at that particular crossing. Obviously something to make that dog feel uncomfortable or what we say in discomfort. So I really like what you say. You have to back it up and you...

Obviously, you've got to be part of that conversation. I'd like you to expand on the conversation idea a bit more. By the time that dog gets to that crossing, it's almost like, I don't want to say too late, but the dog's already there. So it's already in that emotional state. So backing it up is important. But what does that look like in a conversation? Because I think that's what you did so beautifully.

during the conference was to show videos of the conversation between you. We're not just talking about you giving a whole load of cues and the dog responding. It wasn't that at all. In fact, you really didn't say hardly anything. You were literally watching what the dog was saying, which is just amazing because that was the conversation. You were listening.

Andrew Hale (16:07.432)

What's the conversation? And actually, as a little aside.

As professionals, we can find that hard. I think even in the general chat during the conferences, this is interesting because that lead is really taught or why is that happening? Why is that happening? And the point is if we're going to make a commitment to think, if it's safe, I just need you to show me through your behavior. I need you to behave and we'll have that conversation. You'll show me that. That's great. Because tension on the lead to me is part of the conversation. It's like,

I'm starting to elevate. That's what the dog's telling me. We looked at the conference about signs of elevation, signs of decompression. So in the bucket, out the bucket, if people use the bucket side of things. So signs of a dog who's regulating nicely on the walk is that they have a reasonable pace and that they are able to sniff and they can pick a route and that head and shoulders are nice and level. Signs of elevation, neck coming up maybe, tension through the shoulders, starting to zigzag a bit, not being able to pick up a scent trail.

changing breathing patterns, big one, of course. So that's part of the conversation, including tension on the lead onto dogs pulling a bit more now. And a lot of the clients that I've worked with, especially dogs who have struggled with pulling, I like to see it like plotting on a graph elevation, decompression, decompression. A lot of the time the dog is just elevated and yet the little bits of top. So when you start to see that flow, so going back to this dog then, and also I use that doors of the brain analogy.

about we need as many doors open as possible for the dog to be able to regulate well and take on information, but pain, trauma, stress, they all start to close those doors down. So if we were to watch a video of this dog and we were to rewind it, there would be signs the dog trying to have a conversation earlier on. You know, does that gait pattern start to change? Is there a bit more pulling on the lead? Does the breathing seem to change? Does the dog seem more alert? Are they telling us?

Andrew Hale (18:08.262)

this thing that I struggle with is coming up. Am I getting any support? Am I getting any support? Have I got an exit? Am I going to get some relief? No, shut down potentially. So it's those early opportunities really to kind of listen for those subtle changes to have that conversation. Do you need to stop for a second? What do you need to do now? Do you need to go back a bit? Okay, that's fine. Some of these dogs, you know, I helped a dog who really struggled to go over this bridge that they had in the park.

and they tried everything, they tried treats and that kind of thing. It got to the point the dog would almost walk over on its belly. By spending time giving the dog chance to know, can actually go forwards to process, not forwards to have to go over it, and I can move back again. We were there about 40 minutes, 45 minutes, and then the dog was able to put their own paws on and go on a little bit. And that was enough that day. We don't wanna push it anymore, but if you think about that dog, they're like, going forwards means I'm gonna have to go over the bridge.

Victoria (18:42.158)

Mm.

Victoria (18:56.692)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Hale (19:05.596)

but I just need to go over and feel it on my paws and whatever else. And it had a slight kind of metal, like a bit like a chicken wire thing over it, which I think was part of it for the So sometimes then this opportunity to kind of process something and go back a bit. And that's that conversation. It's just that, okay, we need to add a bit more time. On the kind of thing with locations, quite recently actually, there was a dog that was really struggling with leaving the house and going up their road.

Victoria (19:13.624)

Yeah.

Andrew Hale (19:33.833)

on the rest of the walk seemed fine. And just by changing that up, so when they came, that last bit of the walk was always the tricky bit, but by coming back from the walk in the car and stopping up the road and walking in the opposite direction, the dog was able to process differently because it didn't have whatever it was that was kind of the expectation stuff in their brain. So it's just about thinking outside the box sometimes.

and giving them a chance to do that process.

Victoria (20:06.092)

Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you for that. Okay, here's another question. How would you approach your supportive walking technique with a dog that struggles with immediate hyperactivity in any new or novel environment? Meaning their immediate response is to just run and pace and just go.

And that's from Noel, by the way.

Andrew Hale (20:29.37)

 the doggies, but the question is always why? Why is this dog's bucket fuller than it needs to be anyway, potentially? Why does the dog really struggle with anything novel? We come into the area then, of course, about thinking about their physical state. We think about them from a neurochemical point of view. Some of these dogs are, you know, struggle with serotonin balances.

Also on the novel side of things, if the dog has over time fallen into what we might call a pessimistic mood state, the problem with a pessimistic state, pessimistic bias if you like, it doesn't mean that you're necessarily predicting something bad, although it can be part of story, but you're not predicting something good. So if you come across something that is novel, we have to give the dog enough time

over time and sometimes we create these novel things. You know, I've popped a garden gnome in somebody's backyard that they didn't have garden gnomes. To give the dog chance to see what the dog did with that, what does that look like? Did they bark at it straight away or were they able to go straight up to it? Did they ignore it? Gives us an idea about their idea about these things. But then if they have that initial response and they've now got time, what do they do next? Do they feel they can go over and have a sniff?

giving them time to do that. Thinking about these things in the environment can help shift that a little bit for them to think that actually the novel, do have chance to process it or exit from it. But in this case, I think if you've got the dog who's quite fizzy all the time, there's gotta be a reason for that. Why is that homeostasis process not able to happen like it should do? Pain is often a big one, of course, because if you're uncomfortable, and as you've had people talk about this,

the conference and on your podcast and that it's not always the mechanical stuff. It's not always the orthopedic stuff. can be that myofascial tension. It can be, you know, that kind of neuropathic discomfort. So anything that elevates that system means the ouchy stuff happens or that cyclic information. And then it's, it's hard to come down again. You if you've got. Toothache or a frozen shoulder, you don't just think, okay. Again, now it stops you from coping so well. So I think there's a lot of other things to explore with that dog potentially. And this is the thing about.

Andrew Hale (22:55.168)

supportive walking rather than making it all about but yeah but you must walk on a loose leash you must do this you must not do that it's just seeing okay this is what it's telling us so if i was i've got a two acre field that i use and if we take a dog to that space and we were able to find that that dog struggled in we've got a bit which is kind like a like a wooded path that goes into the field so because some dogs

really struggle with a big open place of course. But again why? Why is it that that is difficult for you? If we're walking through a relatively quiet space and the dog is still struggling to regulate, why? What is it about that system that just being out there? And we can't just make a presumption that it's about anxiety. It might be, this is the point, but it can be something else. It can just be a system that can't get relief for what it's experiencing already, let alone having to take on these other things that's being asked of it.

Victoria (23:51.927)

Yeah, very interesting. Okay, have a gosh, so many here. All right. I find it challenging sometimes to explain how I work what I'm currently looking at to the owner slash guardian caregiver. While I'm watching the dog, I'm training. How do you bridge the gap? So how do you watch the dog?

and like keep your eye on the dog but still are able to impart information to your client and address their needs. How do you do both? That's a very big part of being a dog trainer is being able to do both. But sometimes I certainly will let a client know I'm going to now and certainly with filming now

Andrew Hale (24:30.056)

Thank

Victoria (24:45.26)

this is gonna be the time I'm gonna have to focus on the dog and I'll explain to you afterwards what I'm doing. That's just one example. You can talk to your client and say, is what I'm gonna do. But how do you address that?

Andrew Hale (24:59.366)

That's a great example. It's a good idea. Actually, I think if you know, because it is all about communication, this is the key. So I was at an event a couple of weeks ago and it was an assistant dog charity that I was doing some work with. they said, we're really trying to be more dog centered, but we also have to be client centered. So how can you be both? And I suggested maybe you just need to be care centered.

care-centered. And this is the thing, it's just having that care-centered mindset, which is understanding that we can't take anything for granted with the client. Even the simplest thing in our mind might be difficult for them for many reasons. So for me, it's about giving myself time to build the relationship up with the client. And this is what I want to say to all the dog trainers out there. We need to have more time to consider how we create the relationship with our client.

It shouldn't just be a case of, I'm the professional client. It's like, what do I want to invest in that relationship? And I do a lot of front loading, which is a term from kind of counseling, really. I definitely want my client to feel heard. That's the most important thing as we start the process. And then I just want to set out a shared vocabulary. And there's just four things for me. My doors of the brain, which is processing, doors of the brain, the bucket for nervous system.

The notion of relief and the notion of safety. That's it. Everything we do moving forwards is always pushed through those four things. And when I'm out with them on a coaching walk, as I say, I've got an hour's coaching walk. First five minutes is checking in with the client, checking in with the dog, letting them know what we're going to do today. And then everything else is a running commentary. Because when I write my notes up, I don't want it to be like dictating to them. want to be, saw today.

that when this happened, Rover did this, when we did this, Rover did that, we saw this together. And what's nice about that is if you get that phone call from somebody, and we get them, don't we? Those emails saying, well, we've had this really bad day today, and I don't think anything's working and everything else. Part of our mind might think, they're criticizing me as a professional, or I'm not good enough, or whatever that kind of narrative might be. But instead, it should be a case of, OK, let's have that call. And when we do have that call, what do you think we're learning today?

Andrew Hale (27:19.24)

What, was that dog's bucket today? What was, will we closing doors or will we opening them? Or, you know, it sounds like from what you've told me, there was a lot of stuff going on there. Cause it is what it is, Victoria. I think we have to understand that as the professional. So I find actually myself having that kind of relationship really helps because I'm trying to support their awareness of what their dog's showing us. Uh, whilst also being aware of them as well, because you know,

Victoria (27:30.894)

Mm.

Andrew Hale (27:46.919)

quite often with especially with the reactive dog clients when I'm telling when I want me meet and I've checked in with them and I've decided upon the route we're going to take today. would say at least half of the time when I say, okay, we're going to take this route today. The client is like, really? Wow. God, do think we're ready for that today? I want them to have that opportunity to say that rather than just me presume I'm just going to take you somewhere today and we're without asking.

Victoria (28:04.547)

Yeah.

Andrew Hale (28:14.246)

So yeah, I think we've just got to have confidence to recognize that we can, we're there to support, we care and we want to help. We're going to give this commentary of what we're seeing so that we can together validate what we've seen. I think we can fall very easily into just offloading information to them, kind of dumping if you like. And also most of the public don't want to be a dog trainer, they just don't. But if they feel it, for me, I want them to get to the point that they can advocate.

Victoria (28:31.628)

Yes, Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Andrew Hale (28:41.224)

Yeah, I can see just because my dog had a woof then isn't a failure on anybody's part It's because the dog said something in the environment was a bit tricky for me and actually our next response which is I always get my clients to Say sorry to the dog. That's just what I do. It's my little things. I can't sorry. I hear you come on Let's go and find safety over here They start to fall into those patterns rather than them think well, I should have done this or I shouldn't have that we can build mechanics over time

Victoria (28:41.856)

Absolutely.

Andrew Hale (29:07.004)

But early on, they've got to feel what that dog is asking of them in the environment because it can be scary out there. And actually a lot of clients feel it too. And I think we have to be mindful of what we're asking them to do. So when that client hasn't done the homework maybe, or hasn't done the work, it could be because we're asking some of them, actually they find unsafe themselves. And if we haven't had that conversation, we wouldn't know. And that's why supportive walking is supportive for everybody.

We're going to take this animal who clearly struggles sometimes out into an environment that is potentially unpredictable. And we're going to stick a lead on them, a leash on them. Cause there's a lot of stuff there. So we've got to support each other. We've got to support every everybody's got to be supported in this endeavor.

Victoria (29:46.528)

That's so true

Victoria (29:52.395)

my gosh, okay, well look, we'll be back with Andrew Hale after this message.

Victoria (30:02.658)

Okay, I am back with Andrew Hale. We're talking supportive walking. You're absolutely right. know, supportive walking is for the dog and the person. And it is odd. It's an odd thing to do, to put a collar on the dog and then attach a leash or a lead to that collar and lead the dog by the neck. Odd. It is an odd thing to do.

to have a harness on a dog and to attach that lead to a harness, a piece of rope that is attached to you. We know why we're using them. We're using them for safety because certainly if we're living in urban environments, we have to make sure that our dogs are safe. Other people are safe. We're safe. But for the dog, that's weird. it's, I'm finding this more of a thing of when I'm like,

We're leading dogs by the neck

That to me doesn't feel right. I wonder if you could talk about that. That's my question to you. Harnesses I feel are dogs just from observation are more comfortable, more at ease with them. There is less like, they just are.

Collars around the neck. I'm not even talking about the collars we don't like. I'm talking about any collar. Leading a dog by the neck. Seems there's something off about it.

Andrew Hale (31:46.919)

Yeah, and I think this is something that we, you know, we're learning more about over time. You know, back in the day, was a collar was put on and then it was a means of identification and then it was a means of ease wasn't it? You click the lead on. God, when I was growing up, it was all choke chains. That was the influence of Barbara Woodhouse over here back in the 70s and 80s, you know, and it's just what we did. But that's one area actually. This is a complete tangent, as you know, I'm good at these. But.

Victoria (32:04.323)

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Andrew Hale (32:16.488)

I think I just want to say this, especially to colleagues in the UK, because that's all I can really speak for. We see a lot of people advocating they're not nice collars for sure. Do know what? I've had about half a dozen calls. We've got somebody locally sadly who's into prong and everything else. And I've had half a dozen calls in the last couple of weeks from people. One who sadly has tried a collar but didn't like it, but the other five were horrified that somebody would actually do it.

We, we, in our mind, think we might be losing some kind of battle here, but we forget that many of the general public are, especially in the UK, are horrified by the thought of these things. And actually, if I go out now, we live on the beach down here in lovely Torbay. You came down recently to the conference. the majority dogs are on, are on harnesses. There has been a shift. Something has happened. And this thing that harnesses make dogs pull, you know, it's the myth we've got to throw out the window because people talk about.

Victoria (32:55.724)

Mm.

Victoria (33:00.532)

my gosh, it's gorgeous.

Andrew Hale (33:13.916)

Well, that's why they put them onto, onto sledge dogs, for example. Well, that's the whole point, because if they didn't, and they just put them on collars, they choke themselves to death. They, they, they put them in the, they're gonna, they're gonna, because they want them to pull, they stick them in the harness so that they can do so safely. So actually they're, saying the wrong argument because they're, they're tripping themselves up there. The whole point is if your dog's going to pull, it's going to pull, it's, at least he's not going to strangle itself in the process. That's the whole point.

Victoria (33:23.276)

Yes, I would.

Andrew Hale (33:42.601)

So no, think harnesses are great. I think, you know, more and more people are moving harnesses. What niggles me a little bit is when I see a dog in a lovely harness and they still have it attached to the collar. I don't know if you've seen that. But yeah, so yeah, and harnesses for sure. And the collar thing, you know, if you've got a dog who walks, he's off the lead a fair bit or walks a fair bit, whatever, that's up to you as an individual. But with our two, our two walk really nice on the lead.

Victoria (33:53.422)

Yes, I have,

Victoria (34:06.542)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Hale (34:10.076)

But if we go out anywhere for a walk, walk, where we're not going to be here, they're not going to be off leash. They are in a harness.

Victoria (34:16.462)

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, I'm glad that you said that. And then of course, there are lots of places, especially here as well, where collars are required, tags on collars are still required. And that's important, again, for safety. but yes, thank you for answering that. Yes.

Andrew Hale (34:34.816)

But also, you know, we I'm going to mention a brand here, but because I anyway, it's a form of tag that is that kind of isn't a tag. You know, that type, I mean, it's a bit it's a bit of metal and it's got a rubber bit. You can totally attach that. I don't know what the laws are elsewhere, but in the UK, it doesn't have to be on a collar. It can be on your harness. You don't have to have a collar on it. So I mentioned that. Yeah.

Victoria (34:45.678)

Yes.

Victoria (34:55.118)

Yes, they can. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so, right. Going slowly enough for the dog is often a challenge for the caregiver. Any tips on keeping engagement? So going slowly enough for the dog is often a challenge. I think what they mean is not in pace, because our dogs come much faster most of the time for us.

If you're going to say something, it's going to take a bit of time. Now we live in such a quick fix society. We want everything now, right? How do we tell our caregivers that, you know, this might take a little time and it might take a little work? And for them to be okay with that.

Andrew Hale (35:48.585)

So I'm really, yeah, I'm really keen on this because I do some mentoring for colleagues and helping them look at how they work and their emotional health behind it, especially. I think we have to throw most things out the window now and just say, you know, we have to work in a way that allows us to set up those relationships and work in a way that allows us to do the things that we feel we need to do that's driven by our compassionate values in those relationships that we do.

And some of the way that we've done consults in the past, this isn't fit for purpose nowadays. think, uh, I said this kind of jokingly, but I think, um, you know, it was, it's almost like once all these dog trainers went up a mountain and then came back down and said, this is how you don't do a dog training class. And this is how you do guard resource guarding This is how you do a consult So two very important things for me. The first thing is the general public want a quick fix. Of course they do.

So let's accept that. Who wouldn't want a quick fix? Of course you would. You know, so I totally get it. It's like, yeah, I get that. You think, Andy's coming, so everything's going to be okay. I get that. So one of the things we have to be good at really is catching them when they fall because guess what? They've probably tried all the quick fixy stuff. So the second thing they actually want then is somebody who can hold space with them, be non-judgmental and lay a path out for the future and just say, I get it. I really do get it.

Victoria (36:46.317)

Right.

Andrew Hale (37:12.966)

But, know, I want to get to a point that you can at least have a kind of a compromised version of your goals. It might not be the exact thing. And we can do that by doing this and doing this and doing this and just taking our time. Even the way we set things up. So when people employ me, my first bit is three sessions. That's what I call my assessment appraisal. Because what I'm saying to them is,

I'm not here to fix, straight away, because it's an assessment appraisal. And it's three sessions, which is kind of saying, I ain't coming in one session because we're going to learn. And so it's just setting these things out and it's letting them know there's a process here. But it's actually, I call it the gift. I think for us, especially on the, on our side of working, we genuinely care and we want to help. And we bring this gift. Can you hear me? sorry. Did we drop out? Sorry.

Victoria (38:07.04)

Are you there? Okay.

Yes, I can hear you. Yes, it was just a little blip.

Andrew Hale (38:12.667)

Yeah, so

For us who work, who are driven by these compassionate values about how we work, we genuinely care and we wanna help. We care about them, we care about their dog. We want to support them in the process. We know that they want a quick fix, but we also know that that ain't how it works because we've got a living sentient being here who needs to tell us part of their story so we can support them. And that's why I call it the gift really. I think it's like, we have a gift that we can bring.

You know, that if people want to come on that journey with us, we can experience these things and they can improve their relationship and they can do a lot of the things that they thought were impossible beforehand. I think we also have to recognize that some people, a few people, for whatever reason there is in their own past or their own life, don't want to accept that gift. And I think this is the thing we've got to kind of be a little bit humble about, really, and give ourselves grace

But yeah, I think we've just got to be confident in it, Victoria. You know, we've got to be like, okay, this is what we've seen today and give people the right vocabulary and the right understanding about what it is that we're experiencing so that we can really unlock that care bit for them and they can advocate better. But, know, yeah, I think that's...

Victoria (39:29.036)

Lovely. I think that's a great answer. Thank you. Okay. So, this is not so much about the supportive walking part, but, and I think another thing about supportive walking, just before I ask you this question, as it'll be the last question I ask, is the stuff that happens before, right? So it's not just out on the walk. It's all the stuff that happens before and around. We never,

see just a behavior is happening like a let's say the dog is barking a lot we never just focus on the barking we focus on everything else around the barking what happens before during and after the barking and what happens in the dog's everyday general life so i think this is an important one to end up on and it is can dogs become more anxious when they're isolated with their caregivers

and given everything they seem to want.

Andrew Hale (40:31.624)

I think the important word, yeah.

Victoria (40:32.152)

So let's say, I don't know about the isolation part, but maybe this dog lives just with this person. But given everything they want, I think that's a key here.

Andrew Hale (40:46.193)

hmm. I don't, I don't know.

Andrew Hale (40:55.504)

If the dog has everything they want, then that's okay. I get where the question is coming from a little bit. think the biggest issue is our interpretation.

Victoria (41:00.365)

Right.

Yeah, so it's not bad for the dog to have... Yeah, so sorry again, it's blipping because I think that the Wi-Fi is going a little bit funny here and I'm in certainly in a different place so I don't think it's yours but I think let's make this an easier question. If you give dogs everything they want, is that going to make them more anxious?

Andrew Hale (41:18.214)

Hmm.

Andrew Hale (41:29.936)

No, I don't see how that's the case. think, you know, if the dog's getting what they want, or definitely if they're getting what they need, I think that's the key. And it's predictable and it's safe, then that's a great place to start, isn't it? think. it's also definitely true what you said about the fact that we're supportive of walking. It's so many things that go around that moment. What I want to stress to people is...

Um, this isn't about doing the training. isn't about thinking about some of the protocols we've utilized in the past. It's about trying to stack the cards in our favor and understanding that the individual dogs experiences are a bit more complicated than that. So I would say, and I know a lot of other people who kind of use similar kind of methods. If I've got a dog who they pull quite heavily on the lead maybe, or they bark at the dogs. Classic.

Just by the supportive walking element, which is understanding their day, understanding the parts of the day. Sometimes some dogs just shifting the day, time of day they walk can make a big difference to how they cope. By giving them the chance that they feel more connected to us through the lead. So, you know, so that when they need to move, we move with them. When they need to stop, they stop.

if we feel they're already getting a bit elevated and they could do with a bit of a breathing point just to take a breath and kind of refocus a little bit, all those kinds of things. So many of the cases I've worked with that has almost been enough on its own because the dogs calm actually, it isn't about the dogs per se, it's the state I was in in the first place. But for those other dogs where there is other elements about it, they're in a much better place to kind of take on board what we're trying to support them with.

So this is a call out to all the trainers out there when we have those dogs who we keep doing the stuff that kind of works elsewhere and it's just not helping because there is something about that individual dog's everyday survival story that we're missing. That's the whole point here. Nothing is a magic thing, but it kind of does make sense. The more we know what's the big common denominator. You and I both know this. Anybody who's seen your TV shows will see it too. There's a big element of dysregulation.

Victoria (43:55.874)

Yes.

Andrew Hale (43:56.369)

If you see a dog who's calm and observant and whatever else, you don't see much. That's the whole point. So there is a common, there's always a too involved, too excited, too in pain, too frustrated, too anxious. So that's the point. So the supportive walking is to try and reduce the too bit a bit. That's it. It's nothing more magical than that. And it's just understanding about, like you said earlier, the big responsibility that comes to us when we're...

attached through a piece of rope.

Victoria (44:29.62)

Andy, as ever, you make so much sense. You explain it so beautifully. And if people want to find out more, where would they go?

Andrew Hale (44:41.768)

Dogcc.org is my little website and of course the Dog Centred Care Facebook group and my YouTube channel. We've had some wonderful conversations there ourselves of course. So yeah, that's the best place.

Victoria (44:54.252)

And of course, Andy's going to be speaking at next year's DBC, which is already, if you go to dogbehaviourconference.com, you'll be able to get your tickets now. But there's also the in-person conference that you're doing in Turquay again next year. And I am encouraging pretty much everybody that could go, that can get yourself to Turquay to go. It is the best conference ever.

Andrew Hale (45:19.56)

Well, thank you. and you know what tickets are going out hopefully in June. So I'll let you know and you can you can share with your audience on that. yeah, that's it's a great opportunity to especially when you can come anywhere in the world, actually, of course, we have people come over from the States and a couple of people from Australia, which is nice. But yeah, I think it's nice to kind of make it a little bit of a holiday. I think that's the key. A little bit of a break.

Victoria (45:45.519)

Yeah, and it's an amazing place and an amazing hotel. The event was so fun. It's so good. So definitely you let us know when those tickets go out and we'll blast it because you have to go. And I think what's so beautiful because since COVID, so many of these conferences going online now, a lot of things are coming back. This is a new one that is in person.

 would be it, that will be taking place next year in Torquay. So we will watch this space. Andy, thank you so much for joining me.

Andrew Hale (46:42.034)

Thank you. See you again.

Victoria (46:44.236)

And thanks everybody for listening to this podcast. We thank you again for all of your fabulous questions. I sort of took a mean of the questions, took all the questions that were left and kind of put them together because I knew that even in this hour, we wouldn't have the time that we need to answer all the questions that were still left. But hopefully you've got more information out there. And again, thank you so much for Andy for joining us, taking the time out and sharing his wisdom with us. All right, everybody take care and I'll see you again on another podcast.