Away to Me and the Ridglan Beagles with Patricia McConnell

In this episode, famed dog behavior expert Patricia McConnell joins Victoria Stilwell to discuss Patricia's new mystery novel, Away to Me, why no dogs die in her book, and the heart-wrenching saga of the Ridglan Beagles.

Victoria asks Patricia about her influential books, her journey from traditional to modern dog training, and her activism against unethical animal research. They explore the emotional and scientific aspects of animal behavior, the power of storytelling, and the importance of advocacy.

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Transcript

Victoria Stilwell (00:08)
When I say my next guest changed my life, changed my outlook, changed my attitude, changed the way I did things, I mean it. I've told her before, so she knows, but her book was pivotal, pivotal in

The way that I was not only training dogs, but the way that I saw dogs. And I was really, I learned at the time when pack theory was big, when you know, if your dog was misbehaving, it was trying to control the household and take over as leader of the pack. I mean, that's the way that we were taught. And it never sat right for me, but it was.

All that was on the table. And it was better than the stuff that was out there that was the more traditional training. So it's the way that I learned. It's the way that I was mentored. And when I read The Other End of the Leash, it it was an epiphany for me because it validated a lot of how I felt, but also about how not only was the book so accessible and easy f to understand.

And relatable. It was it was truth. It was finally. We didn't have to make up stupid stories about these animals, our dogs who we love so much. And it was a massive release and relief. So my next guest, you all know her, Patricia McConnell. I am so happy you are here.

Patricia McConnell (01:44)
I am honored to be here. I am so proud of you and your career and everything you've done. You are just a shining light. So we could just have a love fest for the entire hour, but I think we would bore people, but thank you. Thank you for those kind words. And you know, I too, I mean, I too started in the world with sort of dominance light. Dominant light, right?

Victoria Stilwell (02:07)
Dominance light. I like that. That that's exactly

it.

Patricia McConnell (02:11)
And it was so groundbreaking at the time, right? And we felt like, and then it was like, wait, this still isn't right. This still isn't right. And so I learned a ton writing that book. And actually writing that book had a huge influence on me too, you know? And I know I'm, yeah.

Victoria Stilwell (02:14)
Yeah.

It did. That's interesting that you say that, really.

Patricia McConnell (02:33)
Yeah,

yeah. But don't you feel that same way? mean, something about the process of writing that changes, I think it's a huge part of why our brains have become so good in so many ways. It's just something that writing something down forces you to think harder about something you thought you understood. And then you start to write it down and you're like, maybe I don't really understand that. Yeah, yeah.

Victoria Stilwell (02:52)
Yes it does.

Yeah.

And the research

that has to go behind every book that that that you are that you're writing, certainly if it's like a how to, right? and you want to to back it up. I mean, that that kind of takes you down various rabbit holes, and really sometimes leads you to questioning things you've done, things that you feel that you want to do.

Patricia McConnell (03:11)
Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Victoria Stilwell (03:28)
And so I want to say, well, thank you for that book, but also thank you for your other book. So if you don't know who Patricia McConnell is, you've been living under a rock. But she's a worldwide expert on canine and feline training. And she speaks all over the world. She's the author of The Other End of the Leash, which is published in 13 languages, I'm sure even more now, for the love of a dog.

Patricia McConnell (03:38)
No, not fair, not fair.

Victoria Stilwell (03:58)
And her memoir, The Education of Will. She has now written another book, but it's very different because it is a fiction book away to me. What made you write a fiction book? Which is kind of, I think, quite surprising for all of us who've read all your other books, and now here's a fiction book.

Patricia McConnell (04:06)
you

Yeah, yeah, it was a process, but it started with, you know, I was over 70 and all my friends were retired, my husband was retired, and I was like, I wanna do something that feels semi-retired. I wanna do something that feels fun. So I thought, what the heck, right? So I actually talked to my agent quite a while ago and I said, I wanna write the...

a version of all creatures, right? All creatures, great and small, but I want it to be in America. I want it to be a woman and I want it to be behaviorist and not a vet. And she said, oh, that would never sell. I actually said that, reminded her of that just recently. She said, did I say that really? But so I sort of like, well, okay. And then I thought, I love mysteries. I read, I read.

all my life. I love to read. I love to read mysteries. And I thought, well, what the heck? Why don't I just, you know, for fun, I'm just for fun. I'm just going to start seeing what it's like to write a mystery. And I did. And it is incredibly fun and incredibly hard and sort of awful and torturous and exciting and wonderful. And so much I knew it'd be hard, but it was so much harder than I thought.

And the thing that I just realized relatively recently after it was like done and about to come out is that I actually wrote something sort of like what I was talking about originally because the novel protagonist, Maddie McGowan, is an animal behaviorist and she lives on a farm and she has a border collie. She competes in dog trials. She lives on a farm in Southern Wisconsin.

Victoria Stilwell (06:07)
Ha

Patricia McConnell (06:10)
I sort of wrote, a way, part of what I was originally thinking about. I also wrote what there I just recently learned is called auto fiction, which is it's partly about your life, but it's radically fictionalized. And I just learned that term in a workshop writing workshop last summer. So it was I'm.

I'm working on that second book now because it is addictive. But thank you for asking. It was a process. took a long time and a lot of people helping me.

Victoria Stilwell (06:46)
So you said so it is about the it said in Wisconsin she's a behaviorist with border collies and there's a certain sheep trial where something happens.

Patricia McConnell (07:02)
It's a murder mystery and that happens in the first chapter. yeah. Her met. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's yeah. It declares itself as a murder mystery right away. And, you know, Maddie McGowan, the protagonist is. She she had some stuff in her background like we all do, right? She had some stuff.

Victoria Stilwell (07:04)
Yes. Yep. So right away where we are there.

Patricia McConnell (07:29)
And she lives, you know, what she feels like is her best life. And she only has two really close friends. And one of them is her sheepdog competition mentor, coach George, who is shot and killed in the first chapter.

And so it's, you know, it's basically it's a hero's journey. It's the classic hero's journey where every man, every woman, just somebody, you know, just somebody off the streets or off the farm, basically.

ends up with this huge challenge which she can either decide to take or not because it's scary. But in order to live with her values she has to take it. really, know, hero's journeys are so classic in fiction.

And I thought about it a lot. And what occurs to me is that we're all on a hero's journey. All of us have stuff, right? And I think sometimes that's especially true in the dog world. I've never seen research. I don't know. I just know so many professional dog trainers who have stuff.

You know, right? And there's something about that that makes our relationship with animals extra special. I don't know if that's fair, but because I don't want say you have to have some kind of trauma in your background to love animals as much as we do. But I think we all are on our own hero's journey in a way. And I think that's why that kind of novel is so attractive to so many of us.

Victoria Stilwell (09:11)
So I love this quote. Like All Creatures Great and Small, which I was about James Harriet, I was huge James Harriet, all creatures great and small fan, and also a huge, a huge fan of the books and a huge fan of the television shows that we watch religiously on the BBC in the UK. but I love this because it says like all creatures great and small meets Agatha Christie, only with more glorious writing, more training tips.

Patricia McConnell (09:21)
Yeah

Victoria Stilwell (09:40)
And more border collies I could not put this novel down. And when I did, I felt blessed by the company of great characters, both human and canine, inspired to live lives of courage and hope. And that's Sim Montgomery from the New he's a New York Times bestselling author of the soul of an octopus, what the chicken knows and the hummingbird's gift. my gosh. So so but I but I but yes, that's right. I think that sums it up so beautifully.

Patricia McConnell (09:58)
Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Yes.

Victoria Stilwell (10:11)
It it is it is a journey, like

Patricia McConnell (10:12)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Victoria Stilwell (10:13)
everybody goes on a journey, hopefully not that kind of journey, but but everybody is going on a journey.

Patricia McConnell (10:17)
Right, right.

Yeah, yeah. And Maddie, Maddie is faced with basically risking her life to save a dog. I mean, that's the bottom line is, yeah, and she does, you know, she does. She she knows she just knows what she has to do and she does it and she almost does lose life. But she doesn't. am. and by the way, I have to say and I had a long discussion with my editor.

Victoria Stilwell (10:31)
Select.

Patricia McConnell (10:52)
at Kensington, who's been a wonderful publisher, by the way. I had a long discussion with my editor who said, you cannot tell people that no dog dies in this novel because there's drama. As you know, there is drama about some dogs in the book. And I said, but I have to. She said, no, you can't. You can't because it ruined the plot. And I said, no, I have to because otherwise all of my friends won't read it.

Victoria Stilwell (11:05)
Right. Yep.

No, no, we w we won't.

I mean, can't deal with it. Can't deal with it. That's why I I love planet Earth and all of that. I can't watch a lot of it. I have to forward through all of those bits because you know it's happening. When and an animal is suffering, an animal is eaten, an animal dies. It's it's almost this innocent soul. It it's difficult. And I'm really glad that you're able to say, hey, no, I need to say this.

Patricia McConnell (11:21)
Wait, what? You can't...

Yeah. Yeah.

Victoria Stilwell (11:49)
Because of the jobs

that a lot of my readers do, this is important for them.

Patricia McConnell (11:56)
Yeah, yeah. And I find it psychologically fascinating, isn't it? I mean, it's not that we don't care deeply about our own species, right? We do. We care deeply about humans. We deeply love our family and our partners and are compassionate. I hope most of us are full of compassion for people all over the world, whether we've them or not.

But isn't it interesting psychology that we could read a murder mystery? So as I said in the first chapter, Maddie's one of her best friends is murdered or is killed. he's shot, dead at a sheepdog trial. And why is it that we can read that? Why is it that we can read about that given as compassionate as we are about the lives of other people?

and not about dogs. And I'm just, I'm fascinated by that. And I think I wrote about this a little bit. I'd love to hear your thoughts. I wrote a little bit about this and for the love of a dog, about emotions and people and dogs. And I think my best answer is why, you know, why this, this incredible sort of protectiveness that we have. And I think what I've said, Victoria, is that in a way dogs get us coming and going. They are.

They are, we look to them to get that non-judgmental approval and love that we all want from our parents and you never really quite get because your parents have to raise you. The dogs can't talk. Dogs can't talk and they love us so deeply and so completely. So we get this absolutely non-judgmental love from them.

Victoria Stilwell (13:39)
Mm-hmm. Uh-huh.

Patricia McConnell (13:51)
which is what we want from our parents. But we also have this parental kind of response to them because they're helpless. You know, if we left the house and shut the door, they'd all die, right? They are absolutely helpless. So we have this incredible, deeply rooted genetic desire to help helpless things. And you sort of combine those two things and they really do play an amazingly special role.

in our lives. I just find it fascinating and I think it deserves more attention. I would love to hear your thoughts given all the work you've done. I would love to hear what you think about this. Why couldn't we read about a person dying and not a dog?

Victoria Stilwell (14:28)
Right.

For me it's because of that vulnerability that you speak about. And yes, that all that unconditional love, that that beautiful innocence, that truth that a dog walks around with. Dog doesn't lie. The dog's the dog's truthful, whether you like the behavior or not, the dog is saying its truth. and but for me they are

Patricia McConnell (14:52)
Right, right.

Mm-hmm.

Victoria Stilwell (15:05)
the small child, the toddler that can't fend for him or herself. That's that a as a as a mother. And and still even though she's an adult, I'm a fiercely protective mama bear. And I would, you know, I would die for my child. There there's there's no I mean that's it. 100%. So for f my dogs

Patricia McConnell (15:21)
Yes, yes, of course.

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Victoria Stilwell (15:33)
My dogs are my children too. And unfortunately they've passed away now. But you know, I had three elderly dogs in succession, so that was hard, but I'm now dogless. it just sucks, but but it's that protectiveness. I cannot stand to see those vulnerable beings suffering.

Patricia McConnell (15:42)
No, I'm sorry. Oh, I'm sorry.

Yeah, yeah.

I think you're right. think that is the core of it. think that's the, you if you had to put percentages on it, I think that's the core of it. You know, they are vulnerable. They are dependent. You know, they are two, three-year-old children. Although I will also say that I truly believe that dogs, that the fact that they can't talk.

Because dogs are adult mammals, right? I mean, once they're grown up. And I swear, you know that side eye that dogs give you? I swear they have doggy curse words. I swear there's an F-U in the vocabulary of some dogs. Right? I just, I actually, just saw it. Skip, my younger border collie, I told him, you know what? I'm gonna take 13 year old Maggie.

Victoria Stilwell (16:24)
yes. yeah.

But they do. Yes.

Yes.

Patricia McConnell (16:49)
to go move sheep from one pasture to another because she deserves to work.

So I'm going to take 13-year-old Maggie to go move sheet from one pastor to another because one, she deserves the work and two, even though she's almost deaf, she's really good at this particular job. So you need to stay here, Mr. Skip, Mr. Fancy Pants. And I'm going to take Maggie and he gave me this side eye and I swear to you it was a canine curse word. And he's such a sweet, dear, kind dog. But there was that flash of...

change in his face and his eyes that you I know you can read in people now because once you learn to read dogs you learn to read people better right right

Victoria Stilwell (17:31)
Yes.

Yes, a hundred percent.

the side eye is yeah. I mean, we l our dogs aren't all angels. They're not all just, you know, we're just Yeah, yeah. Then they also can give great side eyes and snarky comments as they grow. But no but but but I also think that shows that these animals have such personalities.

Patricia McConnell (17:44)
Right, right, and neither are two-year-old children, right?

Victoria Stilwell (18:04)
They are so unique, even though, you know, you've got a lot of border collies or if th they're unique. Everyone is unique. And sometimes they are gonna say, yeah. As at Chihuahua, my my Jasmine. Well, she was the best at giving the side eye. Yeah, not now. Not now, human. You're d go. Go away.

Patricia McConnell (18:11)
Yes, yes.

Yeah.

think Chihuahuas might be extra good at that as a breed. It could be true. It could be true. But yeah,

Victoria Stilwell (18:31)
They are. They are.

I would I I think this book is amazing. I'm so excited to hear that you are writing a second one. And I I also know from writing books about what a massive process it is and nonfiction and even fiction, my goodness, that's that's a whole other that's a whole other thing when you go from nonfiction to fiction. But exciting.

Patricia McConnell (18:40)
Thank you. Thank you.

It is, it's real.

It is, it is very exciting, but it's so different. the first thing that hit me anyway was like, this is so liberating. Anything can happen. can, know, anything. It's so liberating. There's so much freedom. And then you realize the fact that anything can happen at any moment, every sentence.

every line on the page, you have to decide. There's so much you have to decide and make it real. And making things seem real is so much harder than you think. One of my editors at Kensington said, she can't, she couldn't tell me how many times an author has written a section. And Erica said, oh, that is just not believable. I just, I just, I don't find that credible. I still, I just can't as a reader, I just can't believe that. And the author said,

but it happened to me, it was real, right? So making fiction believable is harder than you think it would be. And there's so much to decide. You have to decide voice, know, first person, second person, you have to do voice setting, time. You have to create characters who are believable and interesting. You have to learn to write dialogue that doesn't sound a bit.

ridiculously horrible, which is hard to do. The hardest thing for me though, Victoria, was plot. Because in my books, and I know you've done the same thing, is we'll write a just a little scene or a story to illustrate a point we're making, Because we're all a species of stories, right? It helps people relate to what we're trying to convey, right?

Victoria Stilwell (20:31)
Very hard.

Mm.

Yes. Yep. Yep.

Patricia McConnell (20:56)
So story feels so, so important, but creating an entire story with an elaborate plot, especially, I mean, there were a lot of times I was like, did I have to choose a murder mystery? I could have just written fiction. Because murder, know, mysteries are even harder because you have to fool the reader. You have to, you know, put all these breadcrumbs in, but not make it too obvious. You have to create.

a plot that's elaborate and interesting enough, it's still believable. So I mean, I had a lot of help. really, really did. I'm very, very lucky. There should be like 10 names on the cover of that book. But yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Victoria Stilwell (21:37)
Wow. And I think I think a lot of books are like that, aren't they? You know, a l a lot of books

are. It takes it does take a village and it takes a great editor as well. And you you've got to have that editor 'cause you have to, you're so engrossed in it. I mean you have to have that outside eye to go, wait a second, this didn't this didn't kind of jibe, this didn't flow.

Patricia McConnell (21:46)
Yes.

Yes,

it's like, know what I meant. Why do you not know what I meant? Exactly, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Victoria Stilwell (21:59)
Right. Right. And sometimes you're like, huh, well I thought that was great. I

thought that was but no, but you n have that outside eye. That's really important. You I think you also have to have that humility of being able to accept constructive criticism.

Patricia McConnell (22:07)
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

yeah, and any decent writer, any decent writer is really good at that. I remember when I was teaching at the University of Wisconsin, and my students in a class called biology and philosophy of human animal relationships had to write a paper about the biology and philosophy of some controversial issue like animals in laboratories, for example. And

And I had 100 to 150 students, and I would pour over their papers, read them really carefully, and write all kinds of comments in them. And they would be so upset, and they would be so, that some of them would be angry, and they would be upset. And I was like, I just spent 45 minutes on your paper, and I have 100 of them. Because I'm trying to help you learn to be a better writer.

Victoria Stilwell (23:07)
Yeah.

Patricia McConnell (23:11)
The comment should be, thank you. Right. You know. And so that was sort of part of learning process. And they'd be like, oh, OK. OK. Well, thank you. Anyway, so. Yeah, yeah, that was so I've always been open to criticism and editing suggestions. I mean, with this book, my editor was like, you don't need that chapter. Take it out. I was like, OK, you know, chapter that you've worked, worked, worked, worked on. So.

Victoria Stilwell (23:13)
Right. Right. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that you

worked to put all of that effort into and now.

Patricia McConnell (23:43)
So,

you know, the most if I can, the most fun part of writing this book for me, and I didn't even realize it in a way until afterwards, but I didn't, I didn't say this already. I didn't think about it before, but I was so focused on the plot and the murder mystery and characters and the setting. It so important to me that people feel like

they knew what it was like to walk out of the door in southern Wisconsin and to sort of, you know, to smell it and see it and hear it and to feel like they're really there. But one of the parts that's been so satisfying to me was was Maddie is an applied animal behavior. So she has clients. part of, know, part of any murder mystery, you can't have drama every single second, right? You have to fit it into somebody's life. So I would write about her clients.

And I realized I was creating a window to the world of what it's like to be what most of us do, to be a professional animal trainer, to be an animal behaviorist, to do what you do, to do what I did for years. Because nobody, how would anybody know what it's like? They don't know what it's like. And so...

So I'm sure you've run into this, especially you travel so much around the world. You must be in so many airports. But how many times has somebody come up to you and said, you're a trainer in animal behavior. I've always wanted to do that. And you just left a consult where you were talking about, we have to euthanize the dog for biting the face off their neighbor's five-year-old girl or something, right? And everybody's sobbing in your office, right? And you're gutted.

and they think you're running through a field of daisies with golden retriever puppies. Right? Right. So it was really satisfying to hear from other trainers about thank you for describing my life because, you know, nobody really knows what it's like. And so that was really fun. That was really fun. And then trying to write dogs realistically.

Victoria Stilwell (25:41)
Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah.

Patricia McConnell (26:05)
so many books that have dogs in them that I just want to rip my hair out of my head because I just don't find them credible.

Victoria Stilwell (26:11)
Yeah, well all those movies as well. You know. Okay. So yeah, right, absolutely. And the Malinois's great for everybody, you know. Let's let's have another movie with a with a big star with a Malinois that's gonna save the world. Then everybody's gonna go out and get one. Wow. Well, this is I would just say everybody go get the book, have a good read.

Patricia McConnell (26:14)
Yeah, yes, yes, yeah. Yeah, sure the dog did that. Sure it did.

Right?

Exactly, right.

Victoria Stilwell (26:42)
it is it is wonderful and you are going to love it. Now you do live in Wisconsin, you do have border collies. you are a behaviorist, you have helped this world so much, you have built this world and helped the world and helped people like me navigate it as well. but you also are and I think we all do.

When we have platforms or when we have a voice that may be heard by more people than than others, we sometimes need to use that voice in very difficult circumstances. And so that's why I want to talk about the Ridglan Beagles with you. And we're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, I want to go through the story and how you became involved with something that.

really became a massive story here in the United States and around the world. So I'll be back with Patricia McConnell after this message.

Okay, I'm back with the fabulous Patricia McConnell, and we're now gonna talk about something that's really been really hard, the Ridglan Beagles. And recently, very recently, 1,500 of these Beagles from Ridglan Farms, which is a facility that sells dogs for biomedical research, and they also do research on the farm, but they sell it to other biomedical facilities.

To do medical research on these dogs. Why is it Beagles? Because of their cooperative, relatively docile temperament, these dogs are used for this research. Anyway, numerous violations. And it gets to the point where Ridglan Farms, who fights all of these accusations of animal abuse and they give up. Not give up.

I should say, sell fifteen hundred of the beagles to various rescue groups. And then from July the first, they are prohibited or have agreed not to sell dogs to other biomedical research facilities, but there are still five hundred dogs at Ridglan Farms.

That can be used for their own research, even though there were numerous violations. For example, that surgeries were done on dogs that had cherry eye and the appropriate anesthesia was not given. So can you paint a a a I mean that that's kind of my summary, but you become very involved with this.

Patricia McConnell (29:41)
Yeah, yeah. I might be able to talk about this without crying, but I might not. I should have brought tissues, but I might be, you know, like, what? And part of the reason for that is my history with Ridglan Farms, it's hard for me to use that word. Yeah, it's...

Victoria Stilwell (30:02)
Yeah, it's hard to say that word.

Patricia McConnell (30:06)
goes way back. So I don't know exactly when, but over 20 something years ago, I was contacted by by Ridglan because they had a behavior problem. So I came in and the first thing that happened, Victoria, is after, you know, after suiting up and,

putting my shoes in bleach and doing what you do to keep germs out. I walked into this facility where there were, I don't know how many, masses and masses of tiny little wire cages with wire bottoms.

with one beagle in it. And the only thing in the cage was the, you know, those like gerbil lick feeders that you use for rodents, right? So that's what they had to drink water with and there was nothing in the cage. And the cages were legal. The Animal Welfare Act basically,

The regulations of the AWA is that a dog cannot be held in a cage any smaller than I think it's six. might be eight inches longer than the dog is long. Six to eight inches. So that's legal. there were were these.

Victoria Stilwell (31:26)
That's it.

Patricia McConnell (31:30)
massive numbers of dogs in these tiny little wire cages on wire bottoms, like open wire bottoms. And there was nothing there but a little lick tube And I just stopped and I said, can you not? I said, do these dogs, when do they get out? And they're like, well, females get out when they have a litter. The males get out just to breed the females. Otherwise, they're here all the time. And that's legal. So I'm like in shock.

walking through this place and then we get well and I had said why

why won't you put something in there for them? know, anything like a kong or a toy or something. And they said, well, we couldn't possibly afford that. So we keep walking to the area where they needed the help. the reason they needed help because the AWA changed its regulations. It used to be you could take a puppy from weaning and keep it in a single solitary cage until it was ready to ship, which is like, and I believe don't

publish this but I believe it's between five to seven months. So but the regulations changed you had to keep the litter together until they were five to seven months old. So we walked into this sort of warehouse-like building with these kennels pretty big like maybe six by six or seven by seven and there were these litters of adorable beagle puppies just adorable right running around and at least they had each other right so this is great.

Victoria Stilwell (33:03)
Mm,

mm.

Patricia McConnell (33:05)
Their problem was they couldn't catch them. They'd go inside and the beagles were terrified of people. So they would like run around, right, and waste all this time. So I was like, this is the easiest behavior problem in the world to solve. You just send in a staff person with a pouch of treats.

once a day or twice a day. They're beagles for heaven's sakes. They're dogs. Just walk in there with some treats and have them feed the dogs treats once a day, twice a day. You could fix this in a week. And they were like, we couldn't possibly afford that. We could not afford the time or the money. That would cost way too much money. So I said, I cannot work with you. But here's why I'm going to get teary because

Victoria Stilwell (33:32)
Right.

could not afford the time or the wow.

Patricia McConnell (33:57)
it's really emotional for me. I left feeling.

I just had a hole in my heart. just, just, and I never forgot it. So X number of years later, this whole Ridglan issue comes up and I was contacted a year ago. It's a really long story. I'll try to keep it short, but I was contacted by a group called Dane for Dogs that has known about violations and what's clear cruelty.

at Ridglan for 10 years. They've been trying for 10 years to get this place to shut down. They asked the AG, the attorney general of Wisconsin, who wouldn't be involved, they finally went to court to ask that a special prosecutor be appointed. they had one of, there was a worker there who took videos. And the videos were of, I don't want you ever to have to see them. I'll never leave.

get them out of my brain, dogs spinning in just extreme stereotipies, dogs huddled in corners.

Victoria Stilwell (34:56)
Mm.

Patricia McConnell (35:00)
know, immobile and tonic immobility just frozen. There was so many clear signs of animals who were suffering greatly. So I wrote a deposition. then eventually there was a hearing and what eventually took forever, what eventually happened is that this agreement was made is that originally would not be charged with 311 counts of animal abuse if they agreed to give up their cellage life. So they by July 1st. So there was a massive bruja.

was a break-in, an attempted break-in. Eventually what happened is a deal was made with Ridglan and several rescue groups. Big Dog Ranch Rescue in Florida was one of the major players, but lots and lots of people were involved. So 1,500 dogs got out. 500 were triaged at my local Humane Society. I helped as much as I could. There were hundreds of volunteers helping.

Victoria Stilwell (35:58)
Mm.

Patricia McConnell (36:00)
break your heart. Many of them had paw pads that were so swollen and inflamed, you know, from living on these wire cages. Some of them wouldn't come out of their cages. I spent quite a bit of time with this wonderful filmmaker, Andrea Chamberlain, who's doing a documentary about this whole issue. So those 1500 dogs are

Victoria Stilwell (36:08)
terrible.

Patricia McConnell (36:25)
Gradually and slowly with tremendous variation, right? You some of the younger ones are gonna come out pretty well. Some of the older breeding dogs, it's gonna be a long, hard road, right? And they'll never be the dogs that they would have been. They've been so profoundly traumatized. Some of them I'm learning, some of them, they don't even know what kibble is.

I don't know what they were fed, but they won't eat kibble. They like push it around with their nose and people are like, how? can't get my dog to eat anything. But so there are dogs still there. There are supposedly negotiations going on.

The big picture is that my representative, the House of Representatives, Mark Pocan, yay, he's a hero. I contacted his office, he got involved. He co-sponsored a bill to make it easier to shut a place like Ridgeham down. The big picture, five years from now, 10 years from now, maybe sooner.

we have to get the animal welfare act changed because one, it's unethical to keep dogs like this. It's cruel and inhuman. But second of all, scientifically,

Victoria Stilwell (37:27)
Yes.

Patricia McConnell (37:35)
It is horrible science. mean, if you're going to argue that you need dogs to do research to test medications on our own dogs, and that's not a bad argument, right? I don't want to give my dog something that's only been tested on rats. And I could talk about how rats refuse to, but I won't go down that path. But there are places in Europe where there are laboratories that have dogs in big kennels and they're together and they go on walks and they get to play.

Victoria Stilwell (37:49)
Mm.

Patricia McConnell (38:06)
If we're going to test medications on dogs in laboratories, they need to be good representatives of the dogs who are going to use the medications. neurologically disabled and physiologically traumatized dogs are not good test models. So it's bad science as well as being cruel. So I'm sorry that was probably too long, but you can tell this is just like a huge issue with me.

Victoria Stilwell (38:13)
Right.

No,

not too long at all. I it's it's appalling. I have seen those videos. It is absolutely heartbreaking to see these dogs spinning, spinning, spinning, and the dogs cowering in the corner and the other dogs desperate to get out. I've also spoken to and also seen the videos of the dogs touching grass for the first time. And, you know.

Patricia McConnell (38:40)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Victoria Stilwell (38:59)
We think about right they d well like what is this feeling under my feet? Yeah. but what what the these I mean I've done many puppy mill busts and this is this is no better than a puppy mill, actually at all. It it is they they live in these conditions twenty four seven. Yeah, the only time they get out is when they're

Patricia McConnell (39:04)
Right. Right.

good for you.

It's it's right.

Victoria Stilwell (39:28)
breeding or when there's a litter and the conditions are terrible, it is it is sensory deprivation, it is it's trauma. It it is horrific. I I I can't understand in this day and age that a society allows this to happen.

Patricia McConnell (39:53)
It is shocking and thank you for speaking out by the way. I've seen you on Facebook and I know you're speaking out about this and thank you for using your voice and your platform on this. We have to come together and I think we need to take that energy in a positive way. We need to take that energy to the federal level.

You know, you need to talk to senators. We need to talk to our representatives. We need to get a federal level view on this. And it's starting. I think this might be our moment because you are absolutely right. I always believe if anybody off the street walked into one of these facilities, they'd be it's so dystopian. It's just horrifying. And the fact that this is still going on in 2026.

You know, when you know better, you do better. We've known better for decades and decades. Right. So now is the time. so for everybody listening, you know, it's one thing to post on Facebook how awful it is, but I want you to contact people with power.

You know, New York has a huge facility, by the way. I don't know how many dogs are there. I've heard 20,000 or more. I have no idea if that's true. But there are research labs all around the country that are using dogs like this. We need to get the laws changed because it's bad science and it's unethical. this is going to be a ground up thing. We can change this. Nobody else will.

Victoria Stilwell (41:21)
Yeah, and I and I I think that's it. Yes, you can't just complain about it. You have to do something. Even if that something is to pick up the phone and and leave a message with your representative. Just to it's it's it's something because this is these places are are truly hell on earth. And it leads people to do things that happened at Ridglan where people tried to get in and

Patricia McConnell (41:26)
Right.

Right? Exactly.

Right, right, right.

Victoria Stilwell (41:50)
to save some of the dogs. And there was a break in. There were some, I I don't know how many, like fifteen that were taken. and now those people and especially the the kind of the leader is f gonna face or is facing jail time.

Patricia McConnell (41:55)
Bye.

Yeah,

like felony 15 years. Yeah, Wayne Song was one of the leaders of a, he's a well-known, nationally known animal rights activist. And in the work that I've done with them sort of leading up to things, I was really clear, I'm not a, I'm.

I'm all about animal welfare. I'm not always on the animal rights page. I have great respect for people who believe that, but I do eat meat. I'm very picky about what meat I eat, but I do eat meat. But to welfare is sort of my big, big issue. But I did during the second...

theoretical break-in where Wayne and many other people were arrested. I was there. made one promise to my husband. said, please don't get arrested. said, please don't do that to me because I have a multitude of medical adventures and I have to pee a lot. I'm 77 for God's sakes.

Victoria Stilwell (43:15)
Right.

Patricia McConnell (43:17)
Like, I'm going to be in jail going like, I'm going to pee in the corner now and I know you let me out an hour ago. So I promise.

Victoria Stilwell (43:18)
Yeah.

and the call was kind of going out to everybody. And I started to see messages on Facebook and everything that every that that I think about I don't know how many people turned up on a particular day in Ridglan Farms to try and get in there to try and say, but I was it up to a thousand people? I don't know what the number was.

Patricia McConnell (43:35)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I

have heard that, I'll tell you, it looked like it well could have been. It's in a very rural area. This place has been there forever.

Victoria Stilwell (43:51)
Right.

Yeah.

Patricia McConnell (43:57)
And it's very well hidden. And it's a very hilly rural area. And there were cars parked all over these tiny little hilly rural roads. We walked a long way to get sort of up to the hill, still on the public road where we would be arrested, sort of overlooking where people were trying to break in. It was very chaotic. was not, it did not feel well organized. were people running here and there and everywhere. I, I,

The good thing for me, just personally, is that's where I met Andrea Chamberlain. She was filming for her documentary. I did some interviews. ended up, think people told me I was on CNN. So I did some interviews about why I...

Why I understand the argument of Wayne's argument is it is not illegal to break into a car if it's 95 degrees outside and there's a dog inside that is clearly in distress. It is not illegal. It is a legal thing to do. So that is his argument. And I promised I wouldn't do it. And we finally left because the tear gas was getting so bad.

Victoria Stilwell (45:09)
Yes, so they had they had police officers

there and they were deploying tear gas. I mean it got that large and it got that bad.

Patricia McConnell (45:14)
Right, it

was a thing. Yeah, it was a thing. There was a lot of press there, people from the New York Times, a lot of local press, and there were people running sort of up and down, and people would run up the hill from where they were trying to break through the fence over the moat that they illegally put cow poop in, as if that would stop people, that would just.

Victoria Stilwell (45:39)
Yes, so Ridglan

Patricia McConnell (45:43)
They dug a trench and put cow poop in it as if that would stop anybody. mean, frankly, that part was just amusing and they've actually been cited for environmental like $400 or something. But then there was a fence around it and there were people trying to break into the fence. The main sort of organizers like Wayne.

They had gone up to the, I am told that they had gone up to the fence with their hands up and said, you know, this is civil disobedience. We know we're going to be arrested. And they were zip tied. And then, you know, put behind a building and just sort of sat there. And there are a lot of reports of, two things, if I may, that I want to say is there were,

reports and it's gotten a lot of publicity of what clearly were, I would say, abusive overreactions from some law enforcement. There were some people who were hurt who it appears as though absolutely should not have been hurt. Some of those reports are very credible. But I also want to say there were law enforcement people here and there, and I thought about this a lot, who were

Salute, animal lovers!

And they were in a horrible position. I actually talked to one of them at the Dane County Humane Society. He's like, my job is to enforce the law. That's my job. And breaking into a private facility is breaking the law. But he said, but I really care about dogs. And they were just really torn. And the other quick thing, if you wouldn't mind, that I just really want to say is there has been some criticism that I've read in letters to the editor, et cetera.

Victoria Stilwell (47:04)
Mm.

Patricia McConnell (47:32)
and I do understand it of like, how could you spend all your energy on dogs when there's so many people suffering in so many ways around the world?

And I just want to say to that, if somebody is concerned about this and you get that response from other people, compassion is not a zero sum game, right? Compassion is a matter of fact. There's actually research that compassion is something you can learn and it grows. So being compassionate about beagles does not mean you are not compassionate about people who are suffering in horrific detention facilities, in my opinion.

It does not mean if you're concerned about this, does not mean you're also not concerned about people suffering. It's not a zero sum game.

Victoria Stilwell (48:11)
Yes, inhumane.

Thank you for saying that, because I think a lot of us who do support various animal causes, like, well, what about the the kids out there? What about, you know, all of that and you know, they don't know that who you support and who you don't, who you give money to or who you don't. I mean, there's so much horror in the world as there's so much good in the world too, but you know, what we're we're supporting, and so much difficulty that, you know, you there's a lot to donate to.

Patricia McConnell (48:29)
Right. Right.

Right, right.

Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Right. Right.

Victoria Stilwell (48:51)
But but

I but I I think we need to do better. This we need to do better. We need to do better with the way that we treat people and we need to do better with the way that we treat animals. And and I think Patricia it gets to to this point in not not even talking about the the poor animals that are used for this research, but but also in the way that we live with and raise and train our dogs. I mean, you know, for for

Patricia McConnell (48:59)
Yeah, yeah.

Agreed. Agreed.

Thanks.

Victoria Stilwell (49:20)
Us that have a platform and speak out. There are there's a lot of support, but there are also those who will want to tear down because they don't agree with you, because they have a very different idea of what is cruel or not. and they try and do what they can to discredit. And I and I that's devastating. I mean, surely we should be at a point, right?

Patricia McConnell (49:47)
Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Victoria Stilwell (49:49)
Where we're treating all

of our dogs while we're raising and teaching them with respect and we're putting their well being and welfare first. Surely we shouldn't shouldn't we be at that point now where it shouldn't even be a discussion?

Patricia McConnell (50:05)
Wouldn't you think? And that's, you know, that's another sort of side effect of this novel, Away to Me, that again, it's not at all why I wrote it, but a lot of people who do not...

live in the world that you and I live in and that your listeners live in, they love mysteries, right? So one of the things that's been happening that's so gratifying is that because I write, I can't, I'm struggling to say it the right way. I can't stop the flow of the narrative, right? I can't spend four pages on exactly how to counter condition the dog, right? But, but, but.

Victoria Stilwell (50:25)
Yeah.

No, no, no.

Patricia McConnell (50:48)
it's really clear from Maddie's behavior that she knows the science behind influence behavior. She knows the power of positive reinforcement. She knows the negatives of punishment, the way a lot of people think of it. so I've had interviews with journalists and I've had interviews with people who are not in the dog world who are like,

I didn't know a wagging tail wasn't always a happy dog. I had no idea that was true. So one of the things that's really gratifying is all of my work and much of yours has been about improving relationships between people and dogs.

Victoria Stilwell (51:17)
Mm. Mm.

Patricia McConnell (51:31)
from both directions, right? And helping both species, you know. We humans want to help our dogs and often don't know how and the dogs are like, well, living with aliens, you know, are like idiots. But so by writing a mystery that would, that has a lot of dogs in it, but not so much that it would sort of put people off who not in the dog world. It's another way, just another

another venue, if you will, that sort of continues what you and I have been doing all of our professional life, which is to try and improve the relationship between people and dogs.

Victoria Stilwell (52:10)
And your protagonist in a way to me is she is compassionate. She is courageous. And she fights. And that kind of you are that person. You fight for what is right. You are courageous. You are compassionate. And you know, my husband and I we're

Patricia McConnell (52:28)
Nah.

Victoria Stilwell (52:37)
still very much involved in the theatre world. we know a lot of people that are at the top of their game, right? The they're they wrote Hamilton, they you know, or they orchestrator, yeah. So so and they are they are the change makers. They are literally b through their music, through their writing, they are influencing

Patricia McConnell (52:39)
Bye!

Yeah, yeah. my God. Wow. Wow.

Victoria Stilwell (53:01)
Not just adults are influencing children, they're helping children learn about American history, about you know, through Hamilton, they're they're through through Wicked, through Dear Revan Hansen, all of these incredible musicals that are literally changing people's lives, helping people learn, and allowing people to escape a little bit. These are the change makers in that world. You are the change maker. We were like, it's

Patricia McConnell (53:05)
Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Right, right.

Yes. Yes.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Victoria Stilwell (53:29)
It's wonderful to know these people because you spend an evening with these people, you are enriched, you are fulfilled, you're like, my gosh, I'm surrounded by genius. And

Patricia McConnell (53:41)
Well, I'm so rudely interrupting you. It's just so rude of me, but I have to stop you because we are the change makers. You and I are the change makers and everybody listening, you know, we all... well, there you go, girl.

Victoria Stilwell (53:53)
Well, that's what I that's what I wanna say. It's because we carried on

having this conversation and and and we we moved towards dogs of like these are the change makers. Yes, I'm a change maker. You are a change maker. But our students, VSA, that go through VS, they come out and they build their businesses. They're the change makers in their communities. And they go on social media and they get there then they

Patricia McConnell (54:20)
That's right. That's right.

Victoria Stilwell (54:23)
The change making that the the web kind of grows. I'm like, we are surrounded by that genius. Isn't that amazing?

Patricia McConnell (54:34)
And it is, you know, somebody said when we talking about the world bemoaning the shit show, basically, if I can use that term, the shit show that is much of the world right now is they said art will save us is and so much of that is true. And I've always seen

Victoria Stilwell (54:45)
Political situation. Yeah, the shit show, yes. yes, hundred percent. Yes. Mm-hmm.

Patricia McConnell (55:05)
behaviors and trainers as, dog training I've always said is a science and a sport and an art, you know? And, you know, your work and the work of so many people listening to this and some of mine, you know, I of course hope.

Victoria Stilwell (55:14)
Yep, truly.

Patricia McConnell (55:24)
It's using the science and using our skill to communicate. Just as you said, people have been through your programs and then created classes and are spreading the word. That is what truly changes the world. And that is our, you know, the.

The world changes, it's perspective, know, things get better, I think better, then they get worse, right? And we're sort of in a weird place right now, but we still have the power to bring things to where we think they ought to be for our sake and for the sake of the animals we love.

Victoria Stilwell (56:01)
And like in your book, it takes courage. And so I want to applaud the courage of everyone who is in this profession that has said, no no no, I'm going to teach people and dogs with respect and without the use of intimidation. I'm going to do this. And

Patricia McConnell (56:08)
Yeah, it does.

Yeah.

Right.

Victoria Stilwell (56:31)
So I want to say thank you to everybody who has that courage and thank you, Patricia, for having the courage that you have had, that you've spoken so eloquently about and written so eloquently about. And now in your new book, Away to Me, your your first fiction book, are still exploring and showing and demonstrating that power of that courage in every single person, especially Maddie.

Patricia McConnell (57:02)
Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

Victoria Stilwell (57:02)
So thank you. And thank you. I'm

so pleased that you took the time. Really appreciate it. And the book is sold. I definitely know it's sold by some big retailers. I don't want to mention them on here. But you can get the book really anywhere, can't you?

Patricia McConnell (57:21)
Yeah, yeah, anywhere you want. And thank you for having me. It's an honor to be here and a joy. you know, joy is just let's just I just want to leave you with joy because you bring so much joy into the world and we all need it. So thank you.

Victoria Stilwell (57:36)
Thank you very much. well, guys, I I do step up and be courageous. And even if that does just mean calling a representative, please do that. We've all got a voice. And you don't have to be the writer of Hamilton, and you don't have to, you know, be the the very top of your craft. You don't need to write a book, you don't need to do any of that. You just need to have truth and to be a good person.

And to have that courage to step up and say, no, this is wrong, and we're going to change. And change isn't easy. Change can be really uncomfortable. But without our voices, there is no change. So be the change you want to see. I always think that that's a great quote. Patricia McConnell, thank you so much for joining me. And thank you, listeners, for spending your time listening to this podcast. I hope.

Patricia McConnell (58:27)
great.

Victoria Stilwell (58:34)
You take care of yourselves and I'll see you again on another podcast.