Fostering Respect
The Hackney Foster Carers' Council Podcast explores the way the Care System treats foster carers and what this means for the national crisis in recruitment and retention.
Fostering Respect
Season One Reflection with Diane Benjamin and Maria Takaendisa
Diane Benjamin - Director of Children's Social Care in Hackney
Maria Takaendisa - Anti-Racist Practice Trainer
In this bonus episode, Diane, Maria, and I reflect on how Children's Social Care in Hackney has received the podcast, our commitment to working more collaboratively, and the challenge of balancing safeguarding structures with respect for foster carers' lived experience and wisdom. We also discuss the impact, both personally and professionally, of the first two Anti-Racist Practice: The Foster Carers' Perspective meetings and what the goals are for taking this vital work forward.
Enjoy the episode!
Fostering Respect is the Hackney Foster Carers' Council podcast.
Hosted by Joe Chown
Produced by Jermaine Julie and Lucie Regan
Executive Producers: Debbie Bright, Kim Flack, Evette Dawkins & Liz Hughes.
Supported by The Museum of the Home
Special thanks to Rosie Watts and Mimi Buchanan
In 2022, Hackney introduced three strategic priorities, systemic practice, trauma-informed practice, and anti-racist practice. These three subject areas have provided us as the Foster Carers Council with a structure to inform how we work with the service. They're something to be proud of and we applaud Hackney for introducing them. However, the system in which we are practicing systemically is the care system. And we, the carers, the people who do the caregiving, were not involved in the discussions that led to these priorities being set. Are we practicing systemically when the caregivers aren't invited to input into the strategic decisions about how we deliver care ? Are we being actively anti-racist when the largest collective of black people in any department in children's social care and not asked what anti-racism means to them? Are we practicing in a trauma informed way when the people at closest proximity to it are not asked about how trauma impacts them? It's been a year since the current committee took over. We've started this podcast to explore how the system treats foster carers. We set up a series of anti-racist practice meetings to hear directly from carers about their experiences of systemic racism. And we have initiated a program of regular wellbeing sessions for carers. Today I'm joined by Diane Benjamin , the director of Children's Social Care, and Maria Tucker anda the anti-racist trainer who has led our anti-racist practice work. Hi Diane . Can I ask you to introduce yourself and tell us how you became to be the director of Children's Social Care?
Speaker 2:Yes, you can, Joe . So I'm currently the director of Children's Social Care in Hackney. And I guess thinking about how I became, so I started out as a social worker. I lived in Luton and I studied there and I then moved to London. You probably can hear I'm not a Londoner, I'm a Northerner. So certainly home is Yorkshire for me. I always say, if you cut me in half, you'll see it'll say Yorkshire inside it. So I am a , I am a strong Yorkshire last . So I then moved to London after finishing uni and I started out in , uh, a learning Difficulties team. And it was working with adults, but I had a passion for children. So then I moved and I worked with children and I've worked with children ever since. I tend to stay East London, so all my working career I've worked in, well the forest, I've worked in Newham and I love working with children. It's just for me, giving something back or seeing something different or seeing something change. Um, and I think sometimes when we see the small change with families, that's enough. Sometimes it doesn't have to be the big outcome of removing children. Sometimes it's the little things that make the difference for our families. Um, so I really hold onto that. That's still something I do every day , I think, even if it's a small change or a big change. Um, and then I was really fortunate and really lucky and I got promoted. I was a team manager as I first started, and then I became a head of service and then I became an assistant director. And then I'm now the director of Children's Social Care. I never take for granted this post and this position. It's a really, really, really fortunate position to be in. I think being a black woman as well, being a black woman and a director, it comes with its challenges, I think. I think there's a lot of expectation on me in terms of changing things, making things better. I do try every day and I think for me, I balance that between thinking about my workforce in terms of making sure they've got everything they need whilst also safeguarding children. 'cause there's no red line with that. I have to make sure children are safe. So it is sometimes a bit of a dichotomy sometimes in terms of having the director hat on whilst thinking about outcomes for children and thinking about the workforce as well. And I have a duty of care to the workforce, and that's really, really important for me as well. But I do love what I do. It's challenging. It's tough. And so it should be.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Thank you. First of all, I'd like to just ask you what your reflections have been on, on the work that we've done so far, particularly the podcast.
Speaker 2:I think I was thinking the work that you guys have done in terms of the podcast of the foster carers. For , certainly for me, on a personal level, the insightfulness, just understanding foster carers. Again, not that I didn't, but just having a, a new found understanding of foster carers. I think that's what it's done for me on . Certainly on a personal level, when I think professionally and the service that I manage, I think we have to think about change. We have to think how we do that together. We have to think about how we do that as a partnership, that collaborative working. Um, you know, there were some really personal stories within those podcasts. And I think, you know, understanding the position where foster carers are coming from and where they are, you can see that journey. I think it's a challenge for us in terms of trying to get that right, trying to get that balance in terms of safeguarding children whilst also thinking about the needs of foster carers as well. But I'm here for the challenge. I think it's something in terms of my leadership, how I influence change. Um, it's something that I want to do. You know, Joe , you and I have spoken , um, several times over the last year about what needs to change and how we do that. You and I are very clear we need to do that together. And so I think for me, the podcasts have really opened my mind a little bit more in terms of what needs to change for foster carers. 'cause ultimately foster carers are doing the work, caring for our children day in, day out. Um, and I think there's something about value in that more as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah . Thank you. Um , the, how do you feel it's been received by other people within the service?
Speaker 2:I think received really well. Um, I think it's given us food for thought in terms of what we do and how we do it. I think some of , some, anecdotally some of the feedback I got from social workers and managers was, I think, I don't think they understood the magnitude of what foster carers did. Um, and how, you know, as we do, we work the nine to five , but foster carers are looking after our children 24 hours a day. Um, so certainly got some of that feedback. And I think, again, them thinking a little bit differently about how they speak to how they acknowledge, how they understand foster carers. Um, but we've done some work anyway around gathering the feedback , um, in a written form and, and that's now been shared with the rest of the service as well. So, you know, I think, I think, I think my point through all of this will be the insightfulness of understanding the position of foster carers. Not that we didn't get it initially, but I think it's just opened new doors for us in just understanding that journey a little bit more.
Speaker 1:Now, I'd like to bring in Maria. Maria. Hello. I'd like you to introduce yourself and tell us how you came to be leading this anti-racist practice work in Hackney.
Speaker 3:Hi everyone. And thank you for inviting me, Joe . So my name's Maria Tasa and I'm an anti-racist trainer. My background is , um, family therapy, so I'm a qualified systemic psychotherapist. And I came into the work , um, after being introduced to, to Joe for us to actually look at using a restorative lens , um, in facilitating conversations between the foster carers and children's social care. And the thing that I'm interested in when delivering work around anti-racism is the trauma aspect of , um, of everything really. Because you can't talk about racism without thinking about trauma. And so, yeah, that , that's how I came into the work.
Speaker 1:So Maria, as, as the person who, the outsider who's been brought in to facilitate this anti-racist practice work, you've been working with Diane . And then after that , um, you were recommended to me to, to help guide us through the, the work with foster carers. Um , could you offer your reflections on, on how you feel that that process has gone so far?
Speaker 3:Yeah. Um, so I'll, I'll just take us as a couple of steps back. So when, when I started working with , um, Diane and her leadership team , um, it was around racial trauma and just understanding what racial trauma is. And that's when I was introduced to, to you, Joe , and we had conversations around , um, how we would facilitate a conversation with , um, children's social care around racial trauma. And from our conversations , um, what I suggested was, I have a conversation first with , um, Diane and her leadership team around listening, because it's so important for us to hold in mind , um, the narratives that we hold about each other, because those narratives, they end up influencing what it is that we hear or don't hear, what it is that we see and we don't, and we don't see. So I did that with, with Diane and her leadership team. And then when we then came together , um, with the foster carers, with you , Joe and the foster carers, that listening was different because what social workers and what Diane and her team were now doing was listening to understand, which was now unpicking all those stereotypes that they might have had around what foster carers actually did. And in that first conversation, you could feel the tension that was in there between the foster carers and children's social care. It was you , you could cut through it.
Speaker 2:It was, I think it was fair to say it was really difficult, wasn't it? It was really challenging. Yeah. It was. Gosh , you could feel a pin drop, couldn't you? And I think, you know, when I, when I went into that session, I think I , I realized wow, yeah , just the magnitude of the feeling and the wealth and the depth of understanding. Yeah. You know, there was , there was a lot of anger in there as well. Yes . Wasn't there as well with our foster carers. Yeah . But you are right Mary . I think there's something about that listening. Yeah . And we changed our narrative completely on that word, listening
Speaker 3:Completely,
Speaker 2:Because we're so used to, you know, managing and, you know, giving instructions and writing things down. Yeah. We had to stop completely and we had to listen completely .
Speaker 3:And, and , and you and , and you did stop because what you had come in with was tasks. This is what we want to do because everything is task orientated . Absolutely. But what I invited both parties to actually do is to look at the emotions and think about what is it that happens when we are thinking about anti-racism? And we had black women foster carers. Mm . And the first question that I asked was, who are you? And all of them, they said, I am a woman. I am a black woman. And this is where the conversation started. Identity. Yes . You know, how do we start thinking about people's identities and the impact of, of that? And I think that that just stopped , made people stop.
Speaker 2:And I think also that conversation for me as well, when you asked them who they are, the , the crying, 'cause we had foster carers in tears, didn't we ? Oh, yeah. Just ask , just asking that simple question. Oh , my days . And I think it was because we were asking it. Yeah. But it was my goodness, the emotion. Yeah . That came with just asking that simple question. Um, and I think, you know, also there as well, that vicarious trauma that Yeah , it's a word we use , we bant it about, but actually thinking about and feeling it and seeing that vicarious trauma for my foster carers, you know, society in terms of the race and the racism is there. We can feel it, can't we? But I think we listened and we looked at ourselves in terms of we are perpetuating that. Yeah . Somewhat. Not intentionally. Yeah . You know , but we are, we are continuing that cycle of abuse. Yes . And foster carers were telling us that. And , um, you know, I had my leadership team there and, you know, it was unusual for them not to , to to be quiet. And we were as we had to be . And so, yes, I'll go back to having to listen and changing that narrative on how we do that, but it was, you know, I'm , I'm still, I'm still reflecting, I'm still thinking about how powerful that session was. Yeah. Um, so yeah. Having you in, you know, Joe had brought you into that space, but I think it was a space that was absolutely needed. Yeah.
Speaker 3:There , there was a a , a power shift, wasn't there? Yes. Yeah . A complete power shift. Yeah . Because you , you know, one of the things that, that , um, keeps coming up in relation to this work that Joe always says is, we, we are seen as we, we, we are the , the , the people who need to be managed. Mm . But with that power shift, it's kind of like the foster carers had a different standing. They , they stood in their power and they were able to talk about their experiences and the challenges. And sitting there witnessing that was, was difficult because what it then got me to think about is how much work they needed to be and how much , um, not , not even how much the , the , the level of understanding around what racism is. Hmm . Because these are the conversations that started playing out. You know, what is racism?
Speaker 2:Yeah. How
Speaker 3:Do we start thinking about
Speaker 2:That? I mean , um, I mean, that's a really big question, isn't it ? Yeah . It's, and we should ask ourselves that all day, every day , shouldn't we? In the context of the work that we do. But Maria , I just kind of wanna ask you around, I guess for me around, you know, asking us one , asking ourselves that question, changing the dynamic because it was that dynamic in that room. Yeah . Changed foster carers were in control. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . And they felt it. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , I'd like to think they felt it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . Um, but it was the start of the conversation. I think, Joe , we haven't got it right. And I think this is what this is about, isn't it? It is about a , a common understanding, trying to get it right. We will all be making mistakes all day, every day . And it's okay, isn't it just as long as we acknowledge that, I think. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Um , that's exactly why . It's like we spoke at the last , um, 'cause we've now done two of these anti-racist practice meetings from the foster care perspective. And at the last one we did discuss about how there is no template for this. Yeah . There is no template for how you deconstruct white supremacy within , um, a white supremacist culture. Yeah , it is. We are all finding our way. Yes. I think one of the most fascinating things that , um, you explained to me, Maria, about this is, is we are all impacted by racialized trauma. Yeah . And even as a white person, I'm carrying race , I have racialized trauma Yeah . Because of the white supremacist culture that we are living in. Yeah . And in the it can, I mean, that can be expressed in different ways. Like the white guilt, the kind of white savior complex Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , all of these, these different, you know, the , it's not, it's not just sort of being an actively racist person. Yeah . It is also the, the , um, is discovering the awareness of your white privilege and what that means, and the way that that manifests in different ways. It's so, it , it's been a personal journey for me that I wasn't expecting as well. Yeah .
Speaker 2:Yeah . I'm curious about that, Joan , in terms of that white savior, that white, white supremacy, do you not think in terms of the work that you do? There are white allies and there white allies are something that we need and , and that needs to be part of that?
Speaker 1:I, the Absolutely. Yeah. And it's, and it is , it , you know, we can't change. No one particular group contains it because it is a collective thing that we're all experiencing. And that, that the, it is, it's, it's like a virus. It's not something that is, you know , it's the, the idea of pathologizing the system rather than the people within the system. And I think in terms of my understanding of white privilege and my personal white privilege and the way that it is expressed, because it is , it is this strange virus-like thing. It's, there are times when it is in control of me and times when I'm in control of it. And I think this process is helping me to understand how to be in control of it and how to use it for something positive. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah . It's invisible, isn't it ? Yeah . It's , it's invisible. And, and I guess for me, just picking up on that, Joe , when did you have your aha moment around this white supremacy, white privilege and, and everything?
Speaker 1:Oh , okay. That's <laugh> . That's , I mean, there have been multiple moments, but the, I mean, this is, and this is the thing that I want kind of all foster carers to have, is that the , the experience that I've had, because, you know , we have had these one-on-one conversations Yeah. And they've been quite intense and in depth Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . And so there have been a number of things that have triggered off thoughts. Yeah . Yeah. And , um, a big aha moment. What was you talking about? The, the kind of all pervasive nature of this Yeah . That it is , it isn't something racialized . Trauma isn't just something that is contained within black people. It is , it does affect everybody. And just, and thinking of how that applies to the care system Yeah . And, and how it intersects with misogyny and normativity Yeah . And, and all of these, yeah. There are multiple factors that influenced that. Yeah. And, and so I mean the, the and , and understanding, you know, I've been reflecting a lot on, on your role Diane as a black woman in Todd leading this process. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . Um , and that has been to kind of think about it from your perspective, it's been quite humbling. And to think of, you know, my role challenging this and given what as a white male? Yes. Okay. As, as a , as a, but as a, as a white male who is in a very maternal role Mm-Hmm . And , and who is treated in that way Yeah . In a , in a very sort of female dominated organization in indu field, whatever it is , however you describe what we do. I think there was at the, at the launch of the anti-racist practice standards. Yeah . There was , um, she a professor Maria Stewart, I think her name is, and she said she's been working in the field of anti-racist practice for a long since the Stephen Lawrence , um, case. And she said that it's so much easier doing this kind of work in , um, like the , the city like investment banking and that they take to it. And they're not, they're not, or they don't have this idea that they are the good guys. Whereas doing this work with teachers or with social workers Yeah . Is much harder because people think, but I'm doing good. I'm a good person. I'm coming from the right place. Yeah . And I think that, that it's been, that has been the thing that really hit home for me. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And, and you know, as , as you're talking about, I'm the good person, this is where we, we actually miss the mark around what anti-racism is about. It's not about you being a good person or being a bad person, but it's actually about what the system is doing to people who are from minoritized communities. And once we understand, because it , there's such a small percentage around those who are actually nasty, you know, and, and are , will come into your face and tell you that I, I am actually racist. Because what we don't look at is how do we make decisions around people who are from minoritized communities, because this is where that work there needs to be. So that then takes away that whole bit around , I am a good person. Mm-Hmm . Because everyone, well, I would like to think most of the, most of human beings, they want to be good people. Mm-Hmm . There isn't anyone who wants to be a bad person. Mm . You know, and once we start understanding that we can then see how racism is actually a gas and is killing just the minoritized communities. Mm .
Speaker 1:I think there , there's also the , um, it's not just this idea of I'm a good person Mm . But also that I am a victim. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> and that , so my identity has never, until this process began, has never been the white man. Yes. I've never, that's never how I've sort of seen myself or really been treated. Yeah . It's, it's suddenly I am now in this position of leadership because I've taken over as chair and I am the one sort of instigating certain things. And suddenly this is the first time like , oh, the white man is doing this. Are you responding because it's the white man?
Speaker 2:And you've been asked that a couple of times, haven't you? We've been in forums where people said suddenly the chair, the foster carers, this movement, the thing , is it because we are now listening to you? 'cause you're a white man. And , and I refute that. You know, I think it's about relationships and I think it's about the relationships that we've formed. And I think you and I see the vision, you and I see the goal in terms of making sure foster carers and social workers, they see each other, actually see each other for what they do and how they do it. Mm-Hmm . There's always going to be differences of opinion, but it's how we resolve that because thinking about the child in the center , um, so yeah, Joe , I think, you know, you talk about me and my role as a black woman, as a director, but I think you've had your challenges as well in terms of, you know, you are the chair of the foster carers and is it , is it because you're a white man? Yeah. You know, so I think, you know, I think there's that , there's , it's not the same, but I , there's some similarities between you and I being able to relate in relation to that. Mm-Hmm . Um, I think just going back to what you'd said Maria, about, you know, the , the , the good guys and how social workers are, aren't they? Because they're doing such good work and they're doing really good
Speaker 3:Work, social justice, you know ,
Speaker 2:They're doing really good work. And I think for me, the haha moment for me in , in social care was us doing the anti , and, and I'll speak specifically anti-racism and the anti-racism work. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . And how, you know, we had action learning sets , getting people to have those really difficult conversations. And that was tough. Yeah. And it still is. Yeah . As it should
Speaker 1:Be . And it will continue to be <laugh> and
Speaker 2:It'll continue to be , and it'll , and it'll continue to be, but I'm conscious and I'm aware, you know, there are systems in place for reason. You know, I'm not saying all of them are necessarily good, but, you know, the foundation of social work built on a system, it's being clear how we safeguard, you know, the children act, you know, policy documents. It's all there for us , isn't it? Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> and some, and sometimes we are kind of quite wedded to the systems that have been built to help us safeguard children. And within those systems there is racism within those systems. Of course there is. You know, we wouldn't be sat here today if they weren't. And so for me it's about unpacking that and how we do that in a way together. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> That's smart. Because what I don't wanna do is so the baby out with the bath water . 'cause there was some really good systems that help protect children. Yeah .
Speaker 1:So, coming back to your question, Maria , about the aha moment, one of the things that you talked about was within this white supremacist culture, one of the elements that we don't see as being racist is the, this idea of privileging job title or educational achievement over lived experience. And that, that this, this project has been very much about , um, elevating the lived experience to bring it in line with the job title or education and to try and balance out. So what, what you are describing, 'cause we are not saying don't do safeguarding Yeah . And abandon that and , and all and just listen to us and let us do whatever we want. Mm-Hmm . It's, it's about balancing out the lived experience with the, the structure and the education achievement and , and all the, the work that are social workers are responsible for with the kind of that that lived experience. The, the actual parenting
Speaker 2:Of our children. Of our children.
Speaker 1:Of our children, which is the bit that we do. Yes . Yeah. And , and giving as much voice to that to b it's balancing. Yeah .
Speaker 2:So given, given a voice to foster carers who have all day, every day lived experience of caring for our children, whilst also being mindful to social workers who are qualified, who'd studied for years, who'd done all of that. But given voice to both, I guess is what you're saying, Joe , and Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah . Because one of the things that we are not asking for is the decision making authority. Yeah . But the , the , and as part of the , the structures that are in place Mm-Hmm . And are cemented and are there and are not going to change. Mm-Hmm . That, that decision making authority, which sits within the social workers remit, should allow for foster carers to express their, their opinions and their lived experience. And
Speaker 2:So that's where we wanna get to. There's where we goal
Speaker 1:That's we wanna get to .
Speaker 3:Okay . And as I was listening to, to both of you, where it actually took me back to , uh, some of the experiences that were shared by the foster carers that when they call children's services for support, they're usually seen as the problem. So they, they, they've shared how what they're calling about is then taken out of context and things are written about them, which are not true. And then it takes someone else to then say, oh, are you aware that there's been a report that has been written about you? Which, which is not nice because at that point they , there's a narrative that is being given by someone who's in a position of power, which is actually not, not true. And it's just not with social services, it's with the police as well. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> that if they call for support, they end up being seen as they are the aggressor. You know? And, and it's that bit around. So who's narrative is actually going to be listened to and is going to be privileged and is going to Yeah. It's, it's , it's going to make a difference. Because when you are there, like what you, you always say, Joe , that we, we , we are working, you know, we, we are parents, but is that seen as something that is valued in , in children's social care or , or it does not.
Speaker 2:Mm . I'd like to think doing this work and as it continues, we shift that narrative. Yeah,
Speaker 3:Definitely.
Speaker 2:Because we have to Yeah . Why Joe , while we invested in this, if it's not going to shift that narrative. Yeah . Yeah . It has to shift that narrative. And Maria, I'm not gonna sit here and and say those things haven't happened. 'cause Foster cares were really clear, weren't they? Oh , they
Speaker 3:Were.
Speaker 2:That's happened and happening. Yeah . So it's about what I do in terms of that, that leadership lens. How do I change that narrative with social workers and managers about, you know, not seeing, as you say , yeah . Not seeing foster carers of the problem, but giving voice to why are they ringing today? Yes. You know? And just kind of thinking a little bit more instead of thinking linear. Yeah . Just thinking a little bit more.
Speaker 3:And , and this is where the work then comes in around how do we give grace to people from minoritized communities because they, they don't always have grace. No, I agree. You know, the , the minute that I, I I speak loud, the minute I speak loud, these , they , there's now a negative connotation to that. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . And this is where emotion then becomes a , a privilege to show, you know, for white people. And then it becomes something else for people from minoritized communities, which makes the work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it does . It doesn't. And that's just made me think about, you know, code switching, for example. Yeah . Oh . And how as black people, we often have to do that. Yeah. Um, and I think, you know, why should we have to Yeah . Do that. But we do and we do code switch and we do, it depends what it's for . Yeah .
Speaker 3:Public safety protect , it's
Speaker 2:For our protection. Yeah . You know, I dunno how many times I've been called the black, black, angry black woman because I've raised my voice. Yeah. I just stipulate with my hands, you know? Yeah . And, and so that's not gonna change. 'cause that narrative will always be there, won't it? Yeah . But even in the work that I do, you know, I'm, I'm careful, I'm careful. Don't raise my voice too much because that narrative, that description of me will be different. And so then I want to , how do I change that? And I can't do this on my own either.
Speaker 3:But it also takes me back to what Joe was saying there , Diane , with regards to how hard your job is as a black woman.
Speaker 4:Yeah .
Speaker 2:You
Speaker 3:Know, because <laugh>
Speaker 2:<laugh> ,
Speaker 3:Because there , there is that bit of, there , there's the code switching. Yeah . That , that you do, you know, because you're there , there are lots of eyes on you from, from minoritized communities and, and from white communities. And it's striking that balance, isn't it? Yes . And being true to, to your values and integrity.
Speaker 2:And so there's an element of me being authentic Yeah. And me being who I am. Yeah . Not shifting that I can't change that. And we
Speaker 3:Don't want you to , um,
Speaker 2:But there's a role I have to play. Yeah . And so when you say it, it's hard. I guess I don't necessarily see it as hard because I'm clear what the goal is. Yeah . It's about safeguarding children. Yeah . Yeah . Everything else is white noise. Yeah. Yeah . And I'm not saying I don't get, I don't get the racism and I don't get the descrip. Of course I do. Yeah. But I think all of that over the years, that resilience that I've built up, it's all white noise now. Yeah . And you say what you need to say. I know what I need to do. Yeah. You know, so I'm not dismissing what you're saying. Not at all. But in terms of, you know, that code switching what I have to do, what depends what , what audience I'm with, how I enunciate my words, how I'm careful, you know? Yeah . But there is that authenticity about me. I'd like to think people see. Yeah. And that's never gonna change. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. That Diane , it takes me back to why we can't talk about racism without talking about trauma. Because what I'm now hearing is the hard work that you have to put in, in order for you to be , um, to be accepted in different spaces. And that is traumatizing because it, we step into these spaces as black women, we are stepping into whiteness and that called switching, which for those who don't know, it's thinking what part is going to be accepted of me? Because as black people, when we step into these spaces, we can't, they're not safe for us. I, I can't even explain what it is like. But when we are talking about safety, it's not physical safety, it's emotional safety. Because remember, we have been dehumanized by the system. Yeah . We, we are not seen as people who should be in positions of power, people who have knowledge, people who have expertise. You know, so this is where the trauma work then comes in where we can't talk about racism without talking about racial trauma. And like you were saying before , um, Joe , around white people have trauma as well because you, you are benefiting from black people's oppression. You know? And for us as black people, we are constantly stepping into these spaces where we have to think about which part of me is going to be accepted. And that is hard work. And the hard work trauma, our bodies keep the score . They don't forget, you know, we might not be conscious about it, but we always remember that, you know what, in this space there is so and so , we already have it in our minds. So and so is going to be there for me. Or so-and-so always asks me these difficult questions, which I really struggle with. And that struggling is not because you can't answer, it's the emotional impact of those questions. And this is where the challenge comes in with regards to actually proving something was racist, because it's an emotion, it's a feeling. And this is why we can't talk about racism without talking about trauma and coming back to the foster carers around the experiences of trauma that they, they have, you know, when they're calling social workers for support or they're calling the police for support, their bodies will remember how they have been treated.
Speaker 2:And I, I agree. We , I think thinking about foster carers in that context Mm-Hmm . How hard it is, you know, thinking about the position of power they're not coming from Yeah . And how hard it is to ask for help because they told us, didn't they? Yeah. In terms of their podcasts, how they're seen. Yeah. They think, oh , is it just about money? You know? Yeah. And they told us that, didn't they? Yeah . About how hard it is to Yeah . See how hard it is for them to be seen Yeah. And to be valued. And then with the additionality of all that stuff that comes with it. 'cause you know, job predominantly of our foster care is a black and gold majority, aren't they? Yeah . Joe . So, you know, it's a really difficult position for them to come to because of where they're coming from. Yeah . Um , and so, you know, we, you know, my , myself, my leadership team, social workers, we get that. We understand that. Yeah . And there is a , there is about, there is an understanding of, of seeing each other's position. And I think we're going Joe , I'm , I'm , I'm , I'm here to kind of give you those assurances. I wanna see this through with you, with the foster carers understanding that. And I go back to my original point about, we may get it wrong. Oh yeah . But we just ourselves off and we try again. Yeah , yeah , yeah.
Speaker 1:So that's probably a good place to wind up the conversation. I'd like to thank both Diane and Maria very much for coming along and participating in this podcast today. Um , final thoughts, Diane? So ,
Speaker 2:Uh , firstly, thank you for having me. It's been a really good experience , um, experience . I think final thoughts for me are, Joe , you and I have started this work together. Um, I wanna see it through, I want to make sure ultimately outcomes for children are better. How do we do that, Joe ? We do that by the partnership, working together, having that collaborative space, getting social workers and foster carers to think the same, have the same kind of vision in terms of outcomes for our children and families. And I think we do that by listening. I think we do that by making sure foster carers feel seen. I think that's really, really important for me. Feel seen, feel valued, and feel like they've got a voice.
Speaker 1:Mm-Hmm .
Speaker 3:And just picking up on, they have got a voice for me. This is why I deliberately use minoritized communities and not global majority, because the system does not hear minoritized communities. So it's not that people have got nothing to say, it's because the system has silenced them. So whatever it is that they want to say, if they then speak, they then become loud. Which is, which is not right. So how do we start looking at it from a systemic perspective of the system is doing exactly what it was created to do. It's not serving , uh, people from a global majority who are minoritized communities. But I also want to end on let's give grace. If we give grace that they means we are going to be curious about what else could be going on. Behaviors speak , um, a lot. So how do we become curious? How do we believe what our young people are actually saying and what our foster carers are saying?
Speaker 1:Amazing. Thank you very much.
Speaker 3:Thank you.
Speaker 1:You've been listening to Fostering Respect. If you've been affected by any of the issues raised in today's episode, or want to find out more about fostering or the Hackney Foster Carers Council , you can email us on Hackney Foster Carers council@gmail.com . Today's episode was hosted by me, Joe Chan . The producer was Jermaine Julie for reform Young people and the guests were Diane Benjamin and Maria <inaudible> . Thank you for listening.
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