EMF Remedy
Our mission is to help those who's lives are being adversely impacted through the reckless spread of harmful man-made electromagnetic radiation by equipping them to understand, measure and remediate EMF in their own homes. We also help with the harder part -- undoing the social programming and gaslighting so you can free yourself from the electromagnetic 'matrix'.
EMF Remedy
132: Antibiotic-Resistant Bacteria & the Synthetic EMF Threat – Prof. Olle Johansson
In this urgent and eye-opening interview, Professor Olle Johansson warns that RF radiation—from sources like WiFi—may be fueling the rise of antibiotic-resistant bacteria. But that’s just the beginning. We explore why EHS is a functional impairment, not an illness; why harmonizers don’t help; and how synthetic EMFs differ fundamentally from natural fields. Olle shares powerful insights on blood-brain barrier damage, RF's impact on insects and DNA, and the legal erosion of our right to quiet enjoyment in our homes. From shielded cube experiments to honeybee studies, this conversation brings clarity, conviction, and practical wisdom for anyone navigating EMF resilience.
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Keith Cutter is President of EMF Remedy LLC
https://www.emfremedy.com/
YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCp8jc5qb0kzFhMs4vtgmNlg
Keith's Substack
The EMF Remedy Podcast is a production of EMF Remedy LLC
When you die, maybe there is a pearly gate and a St Peter. And I don't want him to tell me that, olle, why didn't you speak up? You saw and understood, like Arthur Furstenberg. Why didn't you speak up? And I did speak up. So maybe he will say O Ole, you did your best. You failed, but you did your best anyhow. You know, that's enough for me.
Keith Cutter:My guest today is Professor Ole Johansson. He's a Swedish neuroscientist and a former associate professor at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm. He's internationally recognized for his pioneering research on the biological effects of electromagnetic fields, including their potential impact on human health. His work has contributed to the scientific discourse on electrohypersensitivity and the broader implications of EMF exposure. In addition to his academic contributions, Johansson has been an advocate for increased awareness and precaution regarding EMF exposure. He's participated in numerous public lectures and discussions on the subject. Welcome and thank you for being here.
Dr. Olle Johansson:Well, thank you very much.
Keith Cutter:It's a great honor to appear on this program, thank you I have a number of questions here today and just wanted to mention briefly. My audience is generally composed of people like myself, who are electrically sensitive and have been in my case for some time 40 years. Others are just learning, just establishing a correlation between their exposure to different types of fields and their health. The other half of my followers are maybe not completely sold on the physiologic effects of EMF, and that's fine. They want to take a precautionary approach. However, until or unless it is ever proven to be without harm, they want to reduce exposures for themselves or their families. And I've got a number of questions, so, with your permission, we'll get right into it with the first question safe level of exposure to the type of radio frequency radiation that is used for wireless communication, such as wi-fi and bluetooth and cell phones. Is there a known safe level of exposure? And then perhaps you could also compare and contrast that with the types of fields that exist in nature?
Dr. Olle Johansson:This is a very important question. In 1997, at the trade union meeting here in Stockholm, I proposed that we should have a hygienic safety exposure level, because in Sweden we have such hygienic law abiding exposure levels for anything, and I said we should have it also for the manmade, artificial electromagnetic fields. And I said the only level we can put our names behind would be the natural background. And then I remember I had a very strong opponent who was present at that meeting and then he said the following well, generally I never trust what Johansson says, but this time he is completely right, oh my. And I was of course very honored by that comment. And he pointed to that the natural fields they are so including power lines, radio, television, everything that is electromagnetic exposure, and only keep the third generation, mobile telephony, and ask yourself how much more of such exposure do I get compared to natural background? Do I get compared to natural background? And then the increase of only the third generation. And you remember we are already now in the fourth and fifth generation, but the third generation is a quintillion times higher than the comparable natural background, and that's a one with 18 zeros behind. That's a one with 18 zeros behind. And I often tell people. Imagine that tomorrow the outdoor temperature would have increased a quintillion times. Then not only your town or city would disappear in flames, but the entire planet would go up immediately like the head on a match.
Dr. Olle Johansson:So these increases compared to natural background I don't know the proper English word Are they colossal, are they astronomical, are they biblical? Even I mean they are huge, huge. But since we can't see the radiofrequent fields or whatever fields we're talking about, except visible light, then we don't see the problems, if you tell me like that. And that's also interesting to compare, because even the third generation and especially if we put everything back, they are also artificial in the sense that that kind of fields have never existed here before. So mathematically the increase is actually infinite. It's more than a quintillion times. And the lowest exposure increase that we can measure is from power, frequent magnetic fields, which is a long name for household electricity, and the increase compared to natural 50, 60 Hertz fields is only 100 million times. So that's a small increase and of course it's also huge when you really think about it.
Keith Cutter:And of course it's also huge when you really think about it. And you mentioned the power line frequencies. When I think of the natural electromagnetic environment of the Earth, the surface of the Earth itself is negatively charged and the ionosphere is positively charged, and we live in this direct current voltage gradient that's vertically, vertically oriented. Please correct me if I'm wrong and if you're in a normal home what's considered a normal home today? You have wiring that goes in three different directions left to right, in and out and up and down, and they're not direct current fields, they're alternating currents, so they so they switch back and forth in polarity many, many times a second. Is that right to think about it that way?
Dr. Olle Johansson:Well, it is. And also in the wiring, at least in Sweden, we have a lot of what we call electromagnetic disturbances, of what we call electromagnetic disturbances Sometimes you see the word dirty electricity ranging all the way up to the high radio frequency signals. And also here the power lines are often used for something called power line communication, where you use the lines using radiofrequency signals to transport information or get information, like from so-called smart meters etc. So there is a mixture of different frequencies, from the extremely low frequent ones to very low frequent ones and upwards, upwards, upwards to radiofrequent and very high radiofrequency signals. And none of this was around like 100 and 150 years ago. Nothing of this. So it is a dramatic change, as you say.
Dr. Olle Johansson:And the fields, the geomagnetic fields, they are static, they are strong. Here in Sweden, for instance, we measure around 50 microteslas, but they are static and of course any species that couldn't withstand that exposure, they are gone. Electromagnetic fields, also from outer space we get, for instance, 50 hertz signals and other type of radiofrequency signals, but they are so extremely weak. You need colossal antennas like a jodled bank and so on, you know, to even pick them up and you need amplifiers in the electronics, et cetera, because they are so very, very weak. And again, all the species that are left on the planet, including humans. We have adapted to this. And then suddenly, for commercial and very fun reasons, you switch on, like this Radio, television, you have mobile phones, you have wireless internet, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, phones, you have wireless internet, etc. Etc. Etc. And the question is basically can we?
Keith Cutter:take all of this, and at these colossal exposure levels. Yes, and there are some fundamental differences in terms of polarity or in terms of coherence, in terms of pulse modulation. So none of the sources that I'm aware of have any of those characteristics, and those make this type of synthetic EMF really, really new. So you mentioned, prior to 150 years ago, we had none of this. Is there anything that happened from a noteworthy perspective, physiologically to our species, 150 years ago, when I believe you're referring to the telegraph?
Dr. Olle Johansson:began to be operated. Were there any effects? Well, there was quite a number of effects actually reported by people that started to use, as you say, the telegraphic systems or the early radio systems and whatnot, and they reported headaches, for instance nausea, they had problems with memory capacity, concentration capacity and so on, and at first people were looked upon as just imagining this, but rather soon medical doctors and scientists saw and realized that it could be an effect of the very new electromagnetic field exposures and more and more regulations came about and for instance, as you know, for radar, from the beginning you can expose yourself to any radar exposure if you wanted to, but today it's extremely shielded and safety precautions in civil aviation, for instance, as in military aviation, or on ships and boats and wherever you use it, and so that has changed a lot, I would say. And maybe in the future and I often think about when I go to an exhibition here on the West Coast where you have a wristwatch that was painted with radioactive paint so it glow in the dark, and they have one of these and it is in a lead box and you can take a Geiger counter and listen to the radiation. Now we are talking about ionizing radiation from an isotope. Do these measurements? I often think, hmm, maybe in 50 years time they will have another case next to it with a cell phone in it and you would measure the radiofrequent fields and you would sort of smile and say, oh, they didn't understand better.
Dr. Olle Johansson:You know, and we are at that point here, maybe we don't understand better and we allow ourselves, our children, grandchildren to be exposed and not to be forgotten. Of course, dogs, cats, wildlife, livestock, plants, bacteria, whatever, everything is exposed is exposed, and maybe it isn't the best of ideas to do it. But at the same time I would be very happy to sort of raise the green flag and tell everyone it's safe. But today that would mean that tens of thousands of scientific, peer review based articles in journals, scientific journals all would have to be wrong at the same time, and that has never happened before in science history, you know. But hopefully it is all wrong and that all these gadgets are safe. But so far we haven't been able to show that they are safe and therefore we have always recommend a precautionary principle. Better safe than sorry. And some have actually listened very carefully to me and others the manufacturers of these type of gadgets, the operators, the World Health Organization, the radiation protection authorities and, above all, all the world's insurance and reinsurance companies. They do not take any form of responsibility for these safe gadgets. And in a way that's more telling than any test tube experiment or whatever I could show to you, because they have drawn a conclusion.
Dr. Olle Johansson:And I remember 2002 in London. I was present at the conference and at the conference and it was quite public actually and it was related in newspapers afterwards and at the conference you had, for instance, lloyds UK, which is the biggest insurance dealer, and from Switzerland you have Swiss Rio, which is the biggest reinsurance dealer, and from Sweden was a small company called Ifscandia, etc. Et cetera, et cetera. And every such insurance company said that for them the question wasn't whether the cell phone radiation was dangerous or not. They knew it was dangerous. The question was only in the future, who is going to pay for this party? Who is going to pay for this party when people start craving compensations for illnesses, maybe tumors, maybe fertility defects, etc. And they didn't want to pay for that and they were 100% open about it.
Keith Cutter:They didn't try to hide this fact. Fact, there is a website, cellular phone task force, and arthur furstenberg maintained that for a number of years. He has an excellent, I think, um packet that you can download, called the radio wave packet, and it gives a certain research that's been shown just infinitesimal amounts of. For example, rf radiation can have an effect on bacteria and many more things like the disturbance of the blood-brain barrier and the ability to modulate the heart, either increasing the rate decreasing or, in some cases, stopping, and some of these things have been known for more than 50 years. There's also something interesting in that. Sorry go ahead.
Dr. Olle Johansson:Yeah, I mean, you mentioned, for instance, leakage of the blood-brain barrier and since I am by trade a neuroscientist, I can tell you you don't want to have any leakage of the blood brain barrier, but for instance, a group in Lund, here in Sweden, they showed that you only needed one minute of cell phone radiation exposure to your head, and at an exposure level that was 5,000 times below what you are supposed to withstand. So it was a very weak exposure compared to the colossal levels we talked about before. And after one minute you got a dramatic leakage of the blood-brain barrier. And to me, to be honest, I'm surprised that the public authorities haven't reacted to this, like health authorities, radiation protection boards, governments, parliaments, etc. But of course again, the insurance and reinsurance companies. They reacted very early, realizing that, oh no, no way we can take any form of responsibility for these type of exposures. And the sad thing is that when you go to a shop, like here in Stockholm, you buy a cell phone, the person in the shop doesn't tell you anything about this. There is no radio wave packet that you get along with science and questions and so on. They sell it to you as being safe. And I have kind of amused myself by interviewing people in these shops, you know, asking them about risks and danger, and I see they don't even understand the question. It's not on their chart at all. So they say oh, it's safe, why shouldn't it be safe? And then I try to tell them a little bit, but it's not always that they are so very interested.
Dr. Olle Johansson:And may I also tell you a story? I think it's like two years ago I was here in Stockholm. I was riding a commuter train and when I came aboard there was a very posh lady around 60, 65 years of age and she was fiddling around with her smartphone. And since no one knows who I am, I always take the possibility to educate and inform. So I said to her oh sorry, do you know that the World Health Organization in Geneva in Switzerland has actually cancer classified the radiation your phone is using to communicate with the antennas, the base stations and get information back?
Dr. Olle Johansson:And she got very angry with me and told me in Swedish some rather bad words. You know I could basically go to a hot place and et cetera, et cetera. And I said please, please, stop, stop. I hear you and I respect your reaction, but you have a smartphone. Couldn't you please Google WHO, brain tumor and mobile phone radiation.
Dr. Olle Johansson:And she did and went silent for like a minute or two and then slowly she looked up at me and said oh I'm so sorry, sir, you were completely right, it's all here, and now I get very angry again. She said, not at you, but at our Swedish parliament, government, health authorities. You see, I am not only a mother, I'm also a grandmother, and a week ago I bought a new smartphone for my 14 year old granddaughter, and now I regret it. Why didn't the government and parliament tell me what you are telling me now? And at that time, during our journey, I had to leave the train, so I don't know how it sort of ended.
Dr. Olle Johansson:But hopefully she continued being angry and continued maybe addressing these questions with local as well as national politicians, health officers etc. Because it is important to draw conclusions from this, as the manufacturers, the operators, the insurance companies and so on already did more than 25 years ago. Already did more than 25 years ago. So I would say the general public are kind of kept in a legal darkness and they will wake up, of course, in the future when someone craves compensation because of something leakage of the blood, brain barrier whatever, and realizing that blood-brain barrier whatever. And realizing that, hmm oh, the players abandoned the ship more than 25, 30 years ago.
Keith Cutter:So I need to address my complaints to the government and parliament and, with all due respect, we know how successful that will be, you know so yes, it sounds like the most effect was what you had on that woman in the public transport, reaching people one at a time yeah, and they are resistant. I do find that as well, so that's a wonderful success.
Dr. Olle Johansson:Yeah, I say as you said before. I don't want to impose any ideas or conclusions or whatever. I always tell people do your own homework, read. You have a laptop or a stationary computer or a cell phone or whatever with Google.
Keith Cutter:Start there, compare, think, think again, think more and then draw a conclusion for yourself and for your family and for your loved ones and start there, you know and I think, if I'm not mistaken, this um blood brain barrier compromise has been known since at least I think it was the 1980s, with uh, an american biologist, alan fray. Is that, or was it known before then?
Dr. Olle Johansson:Yeah, that's correct. Even before that, 1977, he came to Finland and he lectured, together with other scientists, about that. You can use microwaves the same type of microwaves you use for cell phone communication to open this mysterious blood-brain barrier. The same type of microwaves you use for cell phone communication to open this mysterious blood-brain barrier. And 1977, there were no such systems around. No one understood that Finland soon would change its name into Nokia Lant, with Nokia Consumer Electronics being the big company in Finland. But that was years to come, and so no one sort of stood up and said, oh, we can't go into that adventure, business adventure now, that came later on. But it's interesting to see that, of course, experts from, for instance, the insurance industry, they have their ears to the ground, listening for warning signals that could be later on colossal threats to their economy. And in this case they did listen very well, and they have listened to me as well, you know.
Keith Cutter:So we'll leave behind the damage to the blood-brain barrier and how long that that's been known. I'll make a few parting shots and you can correct me if I'm wrong. But it was then proven by researchers, a couple of decades after that, that the kind of pulse modulated radio frequency radiation could actually do a much more effective job than the regular, what you would have in your microwave oven. All of which leads me horrified when I see young people putting wireless earbuds in their ears, because I don't think those are tested correct me if I'm wrong to make sure they're not destroying the blood-brain barrier.
Dr. Olle Johansson:Everything you say is completely right indeed, yes, and I have the same thoughts and reflections as you have every time I see young or old people, and children as well, you know, with earbuds like this or with other gadgets, that they voluntarily and they love them. Of course, they want to use them, but they expose themselves to something that a lot of levels of society have turned their back on for decades ago, you know.
Keith Cutter:Do you own a cell phone?
Dr. Olle Johansson:I have a stationary phone, but I don't carry it around. I have no need for any mobility, so no, and I also have this laptop I'm sitting with here. It's also stationary, I don't carry it around and if you meet me in Stockholm, you will see and identify me very easily. I don't carry these gadgets and I don't carry my freezer or fridge or vacuum cleaner with me. I don't have the need to vacuum clean out on the streets and I don't have the need to make any phone calls. It's enough sitting here taking all the calls from the stationary phone, as everyone used to do before. But I do respect that people well think they need this mobility. But I hope that some company and of course I would love if it would be a Swedish company that would come up with tomorrow's green, human and environmental friendly technology for wireless communication, and so I hope someone will invent this. Or maybe it's actually impossible. You cannot have these kind of exposures. So maybe tomorrow we will see life on this planet taking steps backwards into older technology, but in a new form.
Keith Cutter:So let's see what will happen older technology, but in a new form, so let's see what will happen. Uh, you, you said it well about. You don't need to take your vacuum cleaner with you or other appliances, and what I, what I say to people, is the only thing this, this horrific um radio frequency, radiation fog gives us is location, independent voice and data, and is that worth taking? Taking the risk for uh risk for potentially putting our children and our grandchildren at risk, as well as uh birds and bees and all of life? So I'll just leave that as an editorial comment.
Dr. Olle Johansson:And I want to ask you you stress, I think- Before we leave that, may I just add that scientists have looked very clearly and neatly into the mobility issue and when people were interviewed the mobility came very, very far down on their priority list. So, and when you see people, most of them do not run around, they actually sit or stand and do whatever they need to do and of course the mobility lies within that. And of course the mobility lies within that you can bring your mental vacuum cleaner, you can call it on board a train or whatever and still be connected. But I'm not impressed because if you look around in societies today, in Sweden or elsewhere, all the old type questions are still unsolved. So I'm not so very impressed by this computing capacity that people carry around. Maybe it would be better if they stayed and started to think and use the brain.
Keith Cutter:This will be a bridge too far for many people watching or listening to us, but Do we know for a fact that using a computer, even one that's wired, as opposed to using a wireless Wi-Fi or Bluetooth, do we know that that has no physiologic effect?
Dr. Olle Johansson:any form of computer, as we call them, like my laptop. Here is just a bigger version of any type of radiofrequent and other frequency domains that you're exposed to. So maybe again, you need to come up with other solutions for human as well as environmental friendly technologies, and that would include every gadget that we would think about, including smart meters, baby alarms, power lines, television sets, radio receivers and transmitters and so on. I mean, the list is very, very long and so, and of course, these are how should I say these are possibilities for any smart engineer and business person. Just imagine to sell all the cell phones once again, but in a friendly format, or all the wireless. Turning back to cabled, I read the mileage, for instance, in an ordinary apartment house. It's just colossal the number of miles of cables that you would need, and in Sweden we have a company called ABB Cables. They would be very happy if we turned wired again. You know they would be very happy.
Dr. Olle Johansson:So there is always an upside to the downside and again, when people then report that the mobility is not a big issue, really, there are other characters of their cell phone or laptop that is more important. Maybe you can have a future compromise, whatever it will look like, but before arriving at it, I would argue that we still need to go a bit deeper scientifically in studying the effect not only on humans but on all the other 8.7 million species that are around on this planet. So there is a bit more to be done. But others, like you mentioned Arthur Furstenberg, who recently unfortunately left us. He meant, and I agree, that the number of facts we have already on the table is enough for a moratorium and enough to urge the commercial side to come up with other gadgets, other solutions for communication. So I agree with him as well. But also, as a scientist, I am curious to see a bit more regarding the effects at different biological levels.
Keith Cutter:You seem like you've gone out of your way to help a number of electrically sensitive people. You've been doing this for this type of work for many decades. They probably come and find you, maybe knock on your front door sometimes, I don't know. Yeah, they do yes, do they? In fact, I noticed that you stress that the sensitivity is a functional disability. Electro-hypersensitivity is a functional disability. Why do you stress that?
Dr. Olle Johansson:Well, from the beginning, and that goes back to the late 70s and early 80s. In the early 80s the first subjects were identified and reported. The first electrohypersensitive or at that time they were called electrical allergy patients came from Norway and the United States, but soon you would find them all over the planet. And in the beginning they were looked upon as some kind of patient with an illness, but such an illness. Scientists and medical doctors were unable to identify what kind of illness it was. And more and more it was realized, and I will come back to that. But it was realized that they did react to the artificial exposures and, like here in Sweden, the introduction of the personal computers, which came in the early 80s, meant that a number of persons started to. A number of persons started to describe skin problems, rashes, irritations, pricking, pain, swelling, redness, etc. And it's so fascinating because people had got these personal computers and of course they were not so sophisticated as they are today, but they were fun. People loved working with them, you know, and for instance, switchboards, they used them and secretaries got them as word processors and so on. And people did not at all tie their subjective sensations to the gadget. No, no, they looked around where they lived and worked, you know, thinking maybe I have another detergent for my clothes or another soap for my face or I'm stressing, etc. Etc. You know, it could maybe be the computer. But then people started to notice that in the evening, when they got back home and didn't have the computer around them any longer, it got slightly better until the morning when they came back to the work. It was something in the work environment. They couldn't identify it, but it was something there. Also, the weekend they got even much better, and when they had holiday for a few weeks they were really fine, you know. But as soon as they came back to the workplace, sat down by the personal computer, started to work, then the problems came, you know, and they started again looking around. But more and more people then also started to look at the computer, thinking could it be this fun, fantastic machine? Is that the one that is causing the troubles here? And then more and more discussions were concentrated on the actual computer.
Dr. Olle Johansson:And then the general idea of the ministers. He was actually asked if an electrohypersensitive person, if he or she, should be regarded as a normal, healthy individual, and he said no, they are not. They have a lot of problems when they are exposed. And then he was asked do they have an identifiable illness? And he said no, they are not having an illness, they are not patients. And in Sweden at least, then you only have a third final category, namely a disability or functional impairment. And he said that is exactly what this is about, and the national and international handicap laws and regulations apply to 100% to electrohypersensitive people, without any exceptions, and from then on, people with electrohypersensitivity, they were identified as having a functional impairment. And remember, nowadays the term has changed, so now it's called a functional variation and so on. There are other terms to it, and that kind of also eased the situation for the electrohypersensitive, but also for other categories like medical doctors, because they didn't have to search for an illness that wasn't there. And I always recommended that. Those days I said to people that if you need to go to a medical doctor, don't tell them that you suspect that the computer is causing this problem, that the computer screen is causing this. Just tell them I have these symptoms and you please, dear doctor, you tell me what kind of illness I have. And the medical doctors couldn't. They tried and they looked in all their textbooks and they were thinking of him. But no, it wasn't any classical illness like a dermatological illness and so on.
Dr. Olle Johansson:Some people started to talk about the electrohypersensitive people, and that was in the early days, that they were mentally deranged or they were imagining things, and a lot of sort of explanation, pavlovian conditioning, and then finally they arrived at a very interesting explanation, namely that it's actually your fault, because when you do an interview or write an article or a television program or radio program, then people start to think, oh, maybe I'm a bit also electrohypersensitive, and that is called a mass media driven psychosis.
Dr. Olle Johansson:And even I, I remember I thought, hmm, interesting. And since I'm a scientist, I also thought well, that's easy to control, to check. And instead of taking humans, we took rats and exposed them exactly the same. And to make a long story short, in spite of the facts that rats don't listen to radio, they don't watch television, they don't read newspapers, they still got the same cellular and molecular reaction patterns as the electrohypersensitive people. So that completely ruled out the mass media driven psychosis, mass media driven psychosis. But you see, there have been a lot of home cooked explanations trying to get rid of these people, you know. But since the year 2000 they are very officially recognized as a functional impairment and they are protected by the United Nations special human rights acts for people with functional impairments.
Keith Cutter:So it's not well. Neither one of us are medical doctors and we don't give health care or medical advice, I'm sure, but with regard to the people that you've met and and the situations you're talking about with this functional disability, is there anything other than avoidance in the form of distance to the exposure?
Dr. Olle Johansson:source or shielding yourself, or both.
Keith Cutter:Or removing the source.
Dr. Olle Johansson:That's the accessibility measures, sorry.
Keith Cutter:Or removing the source.
Dr. Olle Johansson:Of course, but most often the sources are not easily removed, like a base station for telecom communications and so on. But you're right, if you can remove it and people do that, of course. But distance and or shielding, then of course. People and I have had many, many discussions very interesting regarding your general lifestyle factors. If you drink a lot of alcohol and use a lot of drugs and you smoke a lot and so on, it's a good idea to also remove these exposures as well exposures as well, and maybe start looking at what you eat and what you drink and try to become a better version of yourself. And many people have very interesting ideas about that. But one has to be honest and say those ideas are more of a well speculative nature or, in hypotheses, they have not reached the level of theory or even less so being hardcore facts. So I'm always a bit hesitant to give advice regarding your lifestyle factors in general. But for the shielding and the distance or removal, definitely yes.
Keith Cutter:Yeah, avoidance is difficult sometimes because people don't even know what their exposures are or how they can achieve the avoidance, or they are still in love with their smartphone or their computer, or whatever it may be. But it just seems to me, if we considered this, any other type of a poisoning, and I don't know whether that's legitimate.
Keith Cutter:You can comment on that, but if we considered it as some type of a poison, like a lead poison, and you'd managed to get all the lead out of your body, how much more lead would you take voluntarily after I?
Dr. Olle Johansson:agree, and that is actually a problem. I meet very often people that have done a lot and then they still would expose their baby to a wireless baby alarm and themselves to a laptop and a cell phone and so on, and often even not realizing what we're talking about. You know, I remember, for instance, a nurse at the big Stockholm hospital. She was the head nurse of that department and I had a friend there and we were going to look for a room with low background radiation levels look for a room with low background radiation levels and we asked her if she knew, by her experience, if some of the rooms were more shielded from radiation. And she said the following radiation no, no, no, no.
Dr. Olle Johansson:You know, this is a department of hematology. We don't have any radiation. That's the radiology department where they do x-rays and that kind of things. No, no. I said we're talking about the non-ionizing radiation that your cell phone is using. And then she took her cell phone up and said ah, I always wondered how they work. She didn't understand how they communicated with the and, in this case, a hidden base station under the roof plates. So she couldn't really help us because she didn't understand the technology, you know, and she was super smart.
Keith Cutter:She did help us later on with a lot of things, but that particular thing had not sort of been understood by her. Often unable, maybe always unable, to draw the conclusion of what the problem really is. Well, always is probably too much of a stretch, but yeah, we must figure out how to solve that problem. But I have noticed in the people that I work with, who seem to be doing the best in recovering their lives, the two characteristics that I see. So if I had a metric again I'm not a doctor or anything but if I had two characteristics to look at, I would say you're doing well as a sensitive individual, in other words, you're practicing avoidance successfully in your life. If your resilience, your recovery after exposure is decreasing or improving in other words, the time to recovery is less and your sensitivity is decreasing, meaning that you're able to withstand tolerant uh exposures that you are no longer able, what?
Dr. Olle Johansson:do you think of this idea? No, that sounds very, very smart and what I see is that each electrohypersensitive person they have their own profile. Some, you know, go down in the subjective symptoms very shallowly and they also have a short distance to come up to near normal. Some go very deep and therefore it takes a long time months or even years, sometimes not at all to come back to near normality. But the word near normality is very important because it's like a peanut allergy person who, of course, after some time identifies the culprits and don't eat peanuts in any form. They don't expose themselves to that. But that doesn't mean they are not any longer peanut allergy persons. They are, but they have a behavioral tolerance. And that's the same with electrohypersensitivity People learn to identify environments and situations where they should not go into it.
Dr. Olle Johansson:And for me this has been very interesting because and maybe, as you say, it's maybe to go a bit far, but I like it anyhow I think that the electrohypersensitive people, with their avoidance behavior to colossal exposures, they are actually the new normals, the new normals and people like myself being electro hyposensitive. We are the unlucky fellows here, because maybe we would sit in a situation for years not feeling anything and, in the long term run, instead get, as we talked about before leakage of the blood-brain barrier, leakage of the blood-testis barrier if you are a woman that is pregnant leakage of the blood-fetus barrier, etc. And you don't feel it in the same way, you know, and you keep on sitting there, working or exposing yourself to whatever you have, being electrohypo sensitive.
Keith Cutter:So the electrohypersensitive, they are the new normal, I would say I'll just mention in passing, anecdotally, um, when I took my avoidance to the next level and designed and built a home that excludes all forms of synthetic or minimizes all forms of synthetic exposure, my wife and I had been married for many years and she was very supportive. But she would tell you, I'm not electrically sensitive. And now, after several years, would you believe, she is often the first one to get sick and she'll come home and she'll say, oh, I had to go to a meeting with these ladies and they all had their cell phones and my head was so. It's very interesting, and it's not only me. I've talked to other people who have had that experience, where one spouse had the sensitivity and so they needed to go to an area where they could practice avoidance and and the other one begins to, when they go into a heavy exposure again, realize the difference. I'm not trying to make a case for it, just sharing that anecdotally.
Dr. Olle Johansson:and I can only agree with you. I have exactly the same experience, and also the other way around. We were able many years ago to borrow a shielded cubicle, a huge installation underground, which was basically shielded to all forms of electromagnetic fields, and we brought normal, healthy volunteers as well as electrohypersensitive people there. We didn't tell them what kind of a room it was and they all sat down. I think they sat like for 30 minutes and then we interviewed them in the way we said, okay, how did that feel? And everyone said, oh, I don't know what to say. It was like something was lacking, yeah, and that was exactly what it was.
Dr. Olle Johansson:And it's so interesting, you know because, as you know, you can take, for instance, birds in very advanced laboratories and expose them to electromagnetic fields or remove the natural fields, and that would jam their ability to maneuver and navigate, their ability to maneuver and navigate. And again you are removing or adding something that is completely invisible to also a bird's eye and brain. But still they sense it, they feel it, and I remember myself I went down into this cubicle and that was so odd to sit there. Of course I did know what was going on, so I'm not a good test person, but wow, was there something lacking? Yes, indeed so, and I'm nearly forgotten.
Dr. Olle Johansson:Just a few days ago Daniel Favre and myself have published a new article about honeybees and again, to make a long story short, they are very dependent on a type of natural electromagnetic fields called Schumann resonances. If you remove them, then suddenly a lot of bad things happen, especially with the honeybee queen, who doesn't lay any fertilized eggs any longer. So they need the natural fields to feel okay. And it's interesting because you know that the same you can say about, for instance, sounds. People get extremely stressed if you don't give them natural sounds. If it's completely soundless. That's extremely stressful to the whole organism, as is also, of course, a lot of extra sound, and, for instance, when people come here, they often say to me oh, how can you live here? It's such a terrible sound commotion from outside, and what they hear which I don't hear after 50 years in this flat is the underground trains. So they are sensitive to the variation in their life and I don't even hear them. I never hear them, you know, and so every type of exposure.
Dr. Olle Johansson:If it's natural, it's fine for you. If it's non-natural, not so good.
Keith Cutter:I talk to many people who are aware, or just beginning to be aware, of their sensitivity and, unfortunately, a lot of people in their quest to get information about how do I restore my old life is what most of them want. First devices and crystals and diodes and stickers and you know endless array of. If you buy this, you can continue poisoning yourself in the way that you always have, but it'll be okay. So what are, what are your thoughts about this?
Dr. Olle Johansson:well, this is so cynical to sell things like this, including crystals, pyramids and whatnot, and of course, they don't do anything to protect you and they instead rob you of some money sometimes very much money actually, because some of these things are very expensive and it's very cynical to fool people into exposing themselves to something that scientists have shown you should not expose yourself to. And again, if you look on shielding gadgets, only the ones that follow textbooks in physics will work and the rest not. So don't go into that alley.
Keith Cutter:You know that it's very dark and you will just be scammed by ice cold sales persons, you know, would you agree with the statement that, in order to practice effective avoidance, if the steps that you're taking result in a measurable reduction to one of these phenomenon ac magnetic fields, ac electric fields, radio frequency radiation or conducted the dirty electricity if it results in measurable reduction, this this can be very good, but if it doesn't result in measurable reduction, this is not effective avoidance. Would, you agree with that?
Dr. Olle Johansson:I would agree, but I would also be careful, as you say, to always make standardized control measurements using equipment that is sensitive enough. But, as you say, if you don't see any reduction or even an increase in exposure, that's a warning flag. But if you can see a reduction, that's a good first step. But I see that sometimes you need to go quite far down on the exposure level and most often your own body is also important to ask do I feel okay or not? Because you can have a numerical reduction but it's still too much. I mean, we talked about a quintillion times higher and even if you get down a thousand times, it's still biblical and colossal, you know. So maybe you need to go much, much, much further down. And I see that when people report feeling healthy and that could take, as we said before, quite some time weeks, months, even years. That coincides with that they have changed their exposure situation to I would call it an extremely low exposure situation. But it's personal. Some people need just a bit of reduction to feel better and some need a lot. And, as we said before, I have had these should we call them odd calls.
Dr. Olle Johansson:I remember a woman who called me and said oh, I have become electrohypersensitive. I worked as a secretary, I was sitting at the computer day out, day in, and now I'm severely electrohypersensitive and that is the best that has ever happened to me. And I thought what? No, she's kidding me. You see, she said I had to move from the city out on the countryside. I have always dreamt of having golden retriever dogs and now I have three of them. And she kept on like this. So she saw her new sensation, her sensitivity, as God's given gift, you know, and she was happy and beaming with happiness, but most people they don't beam. And beaming with happiness, but most people they don't beam. They are in a very tough situation and they need to stay at their workplace or at their home, they have children, et cetera, and electron hypersensitivity could really work as a wedge between man and woman, between the spouses, between children, and so on.
Dr. Olle Johansson:So you need to be, especially as a medical doctor, you need to be very supportive and not try to solve anything if you can't. Because the accessibility measures here they are for technicians, electricians, building biologists, that kind of people, medical doctors. They can treat symptoms. Of course, if you have a severe headache, they can give you a prescription on aspirin, but they cannot do anything about your computer. You need a specialist in that and, as you said before, always monitor the changes technically but trust your body. So that's really the and you know. When it comes to exposures, as you said before, the reading could be the same, but maybe you have changed the information content in the form of pulsations and polarizations etc. And that is actually doing the trick. So it's not self-evident and it's not easy to do, but start with the technical reductions and then ask the person how do you feel?
Keith Cutter:Yes, exactly. So I have this concept of exclusion facilities. In the medical world. I think they have two kinds of challenges a provocation study and then an exclusion study. So a very simple idea is, if you think you're having problems with wheat, then you could give somebody a whole bunch of wheat and see how they react, or maybe better to just withhold the wheat.
Keith Cutter:So I think it would be wonderful if, worldwide, people could not spend any money on having somebody come in and assess their home, or spend any money certainly on harmonizers or any of that stuff, but if they could go someplace and be away from the synthetic exposures. It used to be possible to just tell people go camping, and if you had any kind of terrain available, you know, terrain protects against radio frequency radiation in certain circumstances, and so that would be a good thing. But now so many campgrounds have Wi-Fi service and people bringing Starlink devices into those campgrounds and whatnot. So what do you think about the vision of if we one day had exclusion facilities where people could, you know, like a short-term vacation rental, could spend a week in an environment where there were, you know, and we would need some kind of a certification? I think to say that it is without. Well, the measured intensities are shown.
Dr. Olle Johansson:It's a brilliant idea. Yeah, it's a brilliant idea. And there are already retreats where people go to get away from Wi-Fi exposure, bluetooth exposure, cell phone exposure and so on. The problem with such retreats is that they are very expensive, easily cost 5 or 10,000 Swedish crowns per week, that would be. That would be oh sorry, no, I mean 5,000 to 10,000. Yeah, that would be in dollars 5,000 to 10,000 per week in dollars, american dollars. So it's only for the super rich to really use these facilities.
Dr. Olle Johansson:But from a governmental point of view, to inaugurate what we call white zones could be very good, but then, while you are there, your own home, as well as your workplace, your place of leisure, should be made accessible for you by using the removal, the distance, the shielding characters.
Dr. Olle Johansson:And that doesn't happen most often, you know. So you will come back to the same bad situation again, same bad situation again, and therefore, from a handicap politics point of view, it's not recommended to even try to construct such kind of reservations for electrohypersensitive people, because what they should be done is that the entire society should be made accessible, and the United Nations is very strict on this. They talk about that. Every human being is entitled to live an equal life in a society based on equality, not in any like campground reservations or expensive retreats or white songs and so on. Anyone should live in the public domain as well as anyone else, and there we have a lot more to do. But again, as I said, if some Swedish inventors now come up with tomorrow's green, human and environmentally friendly technology, then Sweden will be more rich than any other country in the world, you know. So that would be very good. So I hope someone is listening to this and start thinking could we do it in some other way that doesn't harm humans and not any of the other species?
Keith Cutter:Yes, that would be the great victory. And you know, a friend of mine, gary Duncan, shared a term with me wireless trespass and I thought what a clever way to talk to people because, um, yeah, you know, uh, I think the british have this notion in their evolution of their law the quiet enjoyment of one's home. I hope I have that correct. But. But we should all be able to enjoy, to have peace in our homes. And unfortunately, if you live in an area with cell phone service, what it means is you have wireless trespass into your home and it's involuntary, you don't have to sign. I understand the dangers. Yes, please blast it into my home. It's going to happen to you if you live in an area with cell phone service and so somehow that needs to change.
Dr. Olle Johansson:I mean, I see where I sit here with my laptop. If I ask the laptop for Bluetooth services, I get an enormous list, because there are 60 flats in this apartment building and everyone except me they have it. So I am constantly bombarded. Of course I'm not electro hypersensitive, but I'm still instantly bombarded. Of course I'm not electrohypersensitive, but I'm still electrohyposensitive. And in the long term run maybe I get damage to my immune system, to the DNA leakage of the blood, brain barrier effects on the sperm cells, etc.
Dr. Olle Johansson:And I didn't ask for it, it's just here all the time. And it's really here all the time because if I wake up in the middle of the night and check, it's basically the same list. They are transmitting 24-7 these different gadgets and that could be anything. It could be wireless speakers, it could be wireless headphones, it could be anything using Bluetooth. If I switch to other sources like Wi-Fi, it's an even longer list, and if I go for cell phone services, I will then pick up all the base stations around this building. So yeah, and it's all non-natural. It wasn't before here and, for instance, when I was born, practically nothing of this existed. There were a few radio stations in Sweden and TV was not even around. It came after a few years and that was practically it.
Keith Cutter:Yes, the troubling thing about this is you and I can remember a time when the world felt much different, or at least I, I could discern the difference. And, um, I don't think you can exclude the possibility that you would notice the difference if you could go back to that time. But anyway, people born after a certain period of time their body has never experienced a time without these, I'll just say, synthetic exposures.
Dr. Olle Johansson:You know, nowadays, if you look upon babies that are born, they have been exposed from the moment they were born. They were exposed for nine months in the womb, they were exposed as sperm cells and egg cells and they were exposed as progenitor cells to the sperm cells and to the egg cells. So, wow, that's a completely different life than you and I had. You know, and again, as we know, when you look in the scientific literature, there are so many important papers and for every day more and more are published, pointing to that the insurance companies have done the right thing 30 years ago just abandon ship.
Keith Cutter:Right. Well, Ola, you are doing a lot of work for a retired man.
Dr. Olle Johansson:Oh, thank you. Today I've been actually vacuum cleaning, you know Okay.
Keith Cutter:You published a paper not very long ago, I don't know, maybe two months ago bacterial what was it? Super bacteria developing in an EMF environment and you have one that you've just published on the bees the name of that first one. But I'm just saying that you're quite busy still in doing this work and you make time from your busy schedule to talk to me, and I know you're active in giving lots of different interviews. I just want to encourage people that you are still doing research and you're still quite active in this area, and there is a way I would like to ask people if you would consider supporting the efforts. There is a, and I'll leave this in the description researchradiationdk, delta kilo researchradiationdk and each of you listening to this can have a the opportunity to help make his work continue. So is there anything um, yes, absolutely any final words, any, anything else that you'd like to share before we, before we sign off?
Dr. Olle Johansson:No, no, I think we touched upon quite a few of the different results that are discussed around the world. And, just to conclude, you mentioned the effect on bacteria, which is the most scary part, actually. And scientists, several different research groups, have done this and they exposed ordinary bacteria that we have on us and in us right now while we speak, and they exposed them to the second generation mobile telephony or to super modern Wi-Fi routers. And, to make a long story short, and others have done the same studies, but with soil bacteria. And what happened was that the bacteria getting these colossal exposures turned into antibiotic resistant bacteria, turned into antibiotic-resistant bacteria.
Dr. Olle Johansson:And during the recent COVID-19 pandemic, a representative of the World Health Organization in Geneva in Switzerland, he was asked by a reporter if COVID-19 was the greatest threat to mankind. And then he kind of wryly smiled and said, no, we can cope with that, you know, we will come up with solutions to mankind. And then he kind of wryly smiled and said no, we can cope with that, you know, we will come up with solutions to it. But the reporter was smart, so he asked but what is the biggest threat to mankind? And then this official from the WHO said well, that's easy to answer, that's antibiotic resistance in health care. And then when I heard that, you know, I kind of froze because I realized that this man or the reporter, they didn't know that already scientists have shown that household ordinary exposure levels, not anything extra, will turn bacteria antibiotic resistant. And if that will happen on the biggest scale, which it is already doing, and the WHO even calls it a medical tsunami then people soon will start dying from a splinter in their finger, as we did at the end of the 1900th century.
Dr. Olle Johansson:And that is scary, I would say. You know, and I do hope that all these scientists are wrong and, being like a mental fire brigade soldier, I want to be wrong. Actually, I want to come to the place and find out there isn't any fire, there isn't any danger. But again, as I said every morning when I wake up, there isn't any new data pointing into the green sector. It's just another paper pointing into the red sector instead. So I do hope more people will realize, as I said before, that the manufacturers, operators and insurance companies, they are the ones with the real precautionary principle. They just skipped any form of responsibility.
Keith Cutter:Which leaves us holding the bag. Yeah, indeed.
Dr. Olle Johansson:We are left on the ship, together with our politicians and civil servants, and they do, at least here, nothing and this is just going on. And you know we talked about honeybees and bumblebees and so on. It's a dramatic loss. Canada has lost more than 90% of their honeybees, the United States more than 90% of their bumblebees, 75% of their honeybees, europe in general around 75%. And if you look, for instance, on the Swedish farming landscape, which used to be like a checkered board, it's in August only one color and that is from oat and wheat, barley and that kind of things because they are wind pollinated and that kind of things because they are wind pollinated. So the farmers have skipped all the other crops because there are no insects any longer and they just go for making wheat and barley and you can make oatmeal and you can make bread, but no fruit, no vegetables, no nuts in the future. And I'm surprised when I go into Stockholm underground that not every human being stands up and screams in horror, because that's what they should do actually, but they don't.
Dr. Olle Johansson:They are just yeah, I guess they don't realize what is happening, you know, but it's happening fast, very fast.
Keith Cutter:It is happening very fast and I think I'm correct in saying that there are patents where radiofrequency radiation is used to kill insects, and now we're deploying it broadly and to damage DNA.
Dr. Olle Johansson:You can use the cell phone radiation in experiments, in laboratories to damage the DNA and no one says well, what happens outdoors? And we know what happens outdoors, the DNA is also damaged. Again, no one stands up and says stop, we cannot allow this. The show just goes on, you know.
Keith Cutter:Yep, I'm with you. So I live in the forest, and yet we have cell phone.
Dr. Olle Johansson:What I always tell people is yeah, and what I always tell people also is that when you die, maybe there is a pearly gate and a St Peter, maybe there is a pearly gate and a St Peter. And I don't want him to tell me that, olle, why didn't you speak up? You saw and understood, like Arthur Furstenberg. Why didn't you speak up? And I did speak up. So maybe he will say, olle, you did your best. You failed, but you did your best anyhow. That's enough for me.
Keith Cutter:And I'm surprised, as I say, that not more people scream To whom much is given, much will be required. Maybe one day we'll hear well done, good and faithful servant. Yeah, Ole, thank you so much for all that you do, all that you have done.
Dr. Olle Johansson:Or the opposite. You know, maybe when I come to the pearly gates it will say sponsored by Ericsson.
Keith Cutter:Telecommunication.
Dr. Olle Johansson:And you can take national pride in that at least. Oh, national pride, but I will still go down you know Ula.
Keith Cutter:thank you so much for your time today.
Dr. Olle Johansson:I appreciate it, thank you.
Gweneth:The EMF Remedy Podcast is a project of EMF Remedy LLC. We'd like to be your trusted guide for achieving a better EMF environment in your home. The contents on this podcast are provided for informational purposes only and are not intended to substitute for the advice provided by your doctor or other healthcare professional. It is not intended to be, nor does it constitute, healthcare or medical advice. Opinions of guests on this podcast do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the EMF Remedy Podcast.