In this compelling episode, we dissect Maria Cristina Gutierrez's defense strategy for Adnan Syed and how she humanizes him amidst the cultural and religious differences that surround the case. We explore the star-crossed lovers narrative that Gutierrez paints of Adnan and Hae Min Lee, raising questions on the prosecution's responsibility to prove his guilt and not the defense's duty to prove his innocence.
Furthermore, we delve into the fascinating history and formation of Pakistan, Adnan's ancestral background, and the challenges faced by his community in the United States. We also address the social stigma and fear surrounding Adnan's religion and culture, as well as the implications of his no bail status.
Join us as we unravel the mystery of Adnan and question the jury's decision to find him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. We investigate the expectations placed on children by their parents and the challenges Adnan faced as a teenager navigating his cultural identity. With such a complex case, can we truly be confident in the verdict?
In this compelling episode, we dissect Maria Cristina Gutierrez's defense strategy for Adnan Syed and how she humanizes him amidst the cultural and religious differences that surround the case. We explore the star-crossed lovers narrative that Gutierrez paints of Adnan and Hae Min Lee, raising questions on the prosecution's responsibility to prove his guilt and not the defense's duty to prove his innocence.
Furthermore, we delve into the fascinating history and formation of Pakistan, Adnan's ancestral background, and the challenges faced by his community in the United States. We also address the social stigma and fear surrounding Adnan's religion and culture, as well as the implications of his no bail status.
Join us as we unravel the mystery of Adnan and question the jury's decision to find him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. We investigate the expectations placed on children by their parents and the challenges Adnan faced as a teenager navigating his cultural identity. With such a complex case, can we truly be confident in the verdict?
In this podcast we discuss sensitive subject matter. Listener, discretion is advised. Hey Dee, hey long time.
Speaker 2:It's been a while. It's been so long. I can't even remember the last time.
Speaker 1:I don't even have an opening rear. Yeah, that's where we're at, that's where we're at. So here we are.
Speaker 2:Part 85.6.
Speaker 1:Part 3 or something.
Speaker 2:Something. Last time that we were together, we discussed the prosecution, when was that, Oh yeah. And like our last full moon or something.
Speaker 1:Harvest moon.
Speaker 2:This time we're going to discuss the defense. Do you think we'll get any further? Probably not.
Speaker 1:Sorry, guys, if it's left up to you, i'd like let me state my case, please. I'd like to make it known that I am not the only one that goes off on tangents, so it cannot be all my fault, okay but you're like 90% of the problem. Okay, I think we should take a poll. Anyway, I'm the one doing all the reading over here.
Speaker 2:I know.
Speaker 1:The only person that can actually take us on a tangent is the one that interrupts.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Me too.
Speaker 2:Are we ready?
Speaker 1:We are ready, all right. So the defense opening statement by Maria Cristina Gutierrez, otherwise known as Cristina Gutierrez. My notes begin with her basically driving the point home that neither Adnan nor any other defendant has any kind of obligation to provide any proof of innocence, solely on the prosecution to prove his guilt.
Speaker 2:Sorry, I'm moving in my chair. Okay, go ahead.
Speaker 1:Chair ring phone, and it's oftentimes that defense attorneys will bring this up because it is in fact the truth And nothing but the truth. So help them. So you know a defendant, a defense, can sit on their hands the entire trial, not say a word, not bring any evidence and do and say nothing. It is solely on the prosecution's shoulders to prove their case, to prove his guilt. He is not obligated to prove his innocence. Do most people do that? No, they don't. That is usually why defendants don't go on the stand. However, i mean, if they're smart, they don't go on the stand.
Speaker 2:I know we've discussed this and dated. Right, i watched Love and Death, the Candy Montgomery story, and this one was by far way better than the other one, which was just titled Candy. Anyway, she takes the stand in her defense. Her attorney told her you have to.
Speaker 1:Okay, but wasn't she claiming self-defense? She was Okay. that's the only time that it's different.
Speaker 2:The other thing for this was Microphone. She showed no emotion in court And the jury was like, hmm, we're getting nothing from you, You just look like a wall. So she was actually able to show a bit more emotion and it really worked in her favor. And I get that it's self-defense.
Speaker 1:Right, which is usually the only time a defendant will take the stand is if the case is regarding self-defense, because obviously in those cases you're wanting to show why you had to defend yourself, right? If it's not regarding self-defense, usually a defendant will not take the stand unless you're Alec Murdoch. I'm just saying.
Speaker 2:Oh, you're such a moron. Anyway, go ahead, okay.
Speaker 1:Anywho, she goes on to say that, given that fact, adnan wants the jury to know certain things before deliberating, it's her way of saying they will be putting on a defense, you know, in a defense kind of way. And because he wants let's see what they believe is, oh yeah, it's her way of saying that they're going to be putting things forward without actually saying that they're going to be giving evidence. She doesn't actually say we're going to be putting forward evidence, she just says he wants you to know some stuff you know, but doesn't say it's actually evidence. It's a defense-ery thing.
Speaker 1:Anywho, i did a thing on my phone that just kind of threw everything out of whack. So I'm getting back to it. I do that a lot. I don't have my pen, i'm using my finger, it happens. So she starts talking about hey, an Adnan, and it kind of made me giggle again. These things make me giggle because she paints Adnan and Hey like Romeo and Juliet. She calls them star-crossed lovers, like literally that's what she says. She says that they are star-crossed lovers two people from different religions, different countries, different cultures, different, blah, blah, blah. And I mean she kept going. I didn't write it all down, i just stopped at star-crossed lovers. I think that was smart. You know we get it. The one thing that she does say and I think that I brought this up earlier is that she concedes that the evidence will show the cause of Hey's death was strangulation, but that's all it will show. Beyond that, nobody knows who was the one capable or responsible for it.
Speaker 2:She said that it's consistent with occurring on the 13th of January, but also consistent with occurring up to the 20th of January which I have read different things about a possible kidnapping, Right So, which I find it kind of hard to but again, I mean, the autopsy will prove when the murder took place, Right So I mean, we'll get to that Right, So.
Speaker 1:But this is her moment to state what the defense wants to put out there. She said that all the evidence shows is that she was murdered and had been dead for some period of time. It could be, oh, she said, for more than a day, a week or two weeks, but it won't show anything more than that. Well, again, meaning that as far as evidentiary shows, as far as who did it, DNA, well, there was no DNA there was no DNA but again, the autopsy will show the possible.
Speaker 2:Again, that's just me moving in my check, The possible timing.
Speaker 1:Right. So, and as far as like the timing and stuff like that goes, i don't think that she's really saying that, that's all you know. I think her point is is that, beyond the fact that Hay is dead, she was strangled, that's kind of the period at the end of the sentence. She was strangled. It probably took place around this time Period Period. Yeah, that's really all the evidence really shows. Yeah, i mean, of course she's kind of passing on the you know cell phone tower stuff and all of you know, like the phone calls. I mean, you know I think we talked about this before you know when you live in a certain area, you know cell phone towers are going to grab things, you know if you're driving within that area.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but again, this was back in the 90s.
Speaker 1:Yeah, So we can't really because they can track us anywhere.
Speaker 2:now I get into my car and it goes, oh, five minutes to work. Well, how'd you know where I was going?
Speaker 1:True Right. So any who? She continues to talk about the kids in the gifted magnet That J wasn't a part of, But is sure to exclude J Wilds I would too And Jen Poussatteri She makes sure to include both of them. What did I put here? She has a real problem with making connections from one subject to the next. Ah yes, i wrote some sort of bridging of the sentences. I wrote that in there because I was really getting annoyed by reading her.
Speaker 2:See, that's where I could be the defense attorney. I'm so good at not bridging sentences and completing stories.
Speaker 1:I just put it feels very disjointed. I'm going to go ahead and say this ahead of time Again I did not enjoy reading her opening statement, which I usually do After discussing the kids in the gifted magnet Let's see, let's see. Oh, i put in parentheses because she made the statement Who represented the very best of the community with bright futures ahead of them. She makes like these just they're not out of pocket statements because I, you know, i get it, but she just says these things where it's like one of those things where she tries to sound really smart And I said tries because it just sometimes really hurts reading her stuff.
Speaker 2:Well, yes, i understand, but sometimes we just have to do that.
Speaker 1:Are you putting yourself in the same category as Christina? 100% Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because there's a lot of people that have come out in her defense and have said what an amazing attorney she is. And I have no doubt you know, i'm sure when she was in her prime she was an incredible attorney. but I think that at some point you have to know when it's time to stop, and I don't think she did.
Speaker 2:But it by defense. I don't know if I was ever in my prime, If I'm in my prime or if my prime passed you know?
Speaker 1:they always say that you know when you're in your prime. I've yet to find mine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's on for another topic.
Speaker 1:All right then, okay. Anyway, moving on, i can already see my phone has mid-easters all in red, anyway, sorry. So. We talked about her having problems with bridging things and best in the brightest She talks about. Oh yeah. So, by the way, she goes from discussing the magnet and the best in the brightest straight into when Haye spent time in California. Don't ask me what one has to do with the other, but this is the order in which she went. I have no idea. Haye spent time in California. There was a period of time she wasn't around. Nobody gives a shit. Why are you bringing this up? Who cares? What does it have to do with anything?
Speaker 2:Well, I did read that there was the chance that she was going to go back to her dad Right, and I get that's not in California, but could it be one of those things that she was maybe going to try and hit on that and failed? It may be.
Speaker 1:I'm totally with you. It's the order in which she was doing it and the lack of bridging that you know there was. There was no bridge. It was literally these are our best and our brightest, with a bright future ahead of us. So hey was in California and it's like huh, where'd you go? Like there was, there was nothing that you know. You know these people, they had great, you know friendships and yada, yada, yada. You know, and maybe she did, and I just didn't want to read it. It's possible I've done that Whatever.
Speaker 1:But even if she did, you know, i it just it just feels so disjointed. I hated her opening, but anyway, i guess later on she does, or before whatever, she makes this point about how all of these kids went to school together and they had been friends for a long, long time And for like well, she says a year and a half, but it was actually not even a full year that they were in California. My understanding, at least young, said that it was only for like six months that they were in California with the, the mom and the fiance. So year and a half half, i don't know, but anyway. So she talks about that a little bit And yes, i understand it's because you know she. She called the ex-fiance her dad. She kind of associated him as her dad. When she spoke to her friends she called the ex-fiance dad.
Speaker 1:Okay, now you'll, we'll get to it later someday, when we get into the testimony that young knows nothing about this.
Speaker 2:Do you think that we'll get through this by the end of this year? I?
Speaker 1:don't know. Okay, i'm going to be quite frank, i'll be, i'll be quite cat, okay, anyway, yeah, so then she, she drops that and goes directly into how diverse the groups, the students, were in the group. Do you see what I mean? Yeah, so again, there was no bridging. So we are best in the brightest Hayes in California and now we're all diverse. Cool, it makes zero sense With.
Speaker 2:Middle.
Speaker 1:Easters. Well, yeah, don't even get me started. I'm trying to, i'm trying to ignore that, but it keeps blaring at me in red because it's not a word. But anyway, i digress again. Oh, i did put. That's why I wrote it in there, cause I said, um, let's see, she talked about. She talks about the time Hayes spent in California, again with no real connection, then goes directly into the diversity of the group of students. She refers to Muslims as Mid-Easters. She states that um, oh, this was my favorite. I'm not even sure if I'm going to get any backlash for this. Please don't, cause I don't even know how I feel about it. She says, she states there were black people of every hue. I don't, is that okay? Like I don't know, it just felt wrong. Yeah, like I mean oh, okay, moving on.
Speaker 2:Okay, i just felt dirty, But I wonder if she feels that she can say that because she is of Hispanic background. Maybe.
Speaker 1:I didn't like saying it. Okay So, but then she also said that there were white people of every ethnicity but they also labeled Hayman Lee on her.
Speaker 2:Autism Report as being white, that's true, but then it says Asian.
Speaker 1:Oh, it does.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it says it on the same paper.
Speaker 1:Well, at least they said it somewhere. That's odd. It's just odd. Okay, um, she focuses on the students lack of biases. Rather, they cared more about the quality of the person. She then goes over Audnan's ancestry. See what I mean Once again. where's the gap? How long was this speech? There's no recording of it, so I can only tell you that it was, you know, like the court reporting paper like a filibuster.
Speaker 1:It may have been longer. So now we're going into Audnan's ancestry, which is that of Pakistani descent on both his mother and father's side. She makes it clear that Audnan's an American citizen, and I say it that way because, well, i didn't write it in my notes. I remember when I was reading it, she was going into this whole. You know, his mom and dad were immigrants, um, and Audnan wasn't even you know a thought in their mind yet, like he hadn't been born. Yada, yada, yada. You know, like she was going into another one of her diatribe's about how Audnan wasn't born until they had gotten here, and then, and then, once that was done, um, oh yeah, this was this, was that weird sentence, okay, so I put it in quotes because it was a sentence I did not understand.
Speaker 2:So let's I'll help you. Try to understand it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i was going to say let's discuss the sentence. So I said um, i said I'm not sure what point she's trying to get across by saying, and I quote, pakistan is, depending on your viewpoint, an Arab country, a Middle Eastern country, a Near Eastern country, a Far Eastern country.
Speaker 2:Well, okay, do you want to take my point of view on that, or do you want to keep going?
Speaker 1:Okay, i guess we'll just keep going. Okay, i don't know where she was going with that. I really it's nothing.
Speaker 2:Well, I know we talked about it prior to this and I'm just going to say, trying to look at the big picture, maybe she was just trying to say that the family that they have back there, large, small, wherever it goes, they're waiting to see how they handle this situation because of their religion, their culture, their beliefs.
Speaker 1:Okay, i really think that there is a more succinct way of stating that, because that wasn't it. I certainly didn't get that from that And I consider myself not dumb. I don't think I'm in Jay's crowd, and let's just say I don't think you are either. I'm just going to put that out there, but anyway, i digress. That was a compliment. You're welcome. Anyway, my point is just that it didn't belong. I'm just going to say it.
Speaker 2:It didn't belong. There's a lot of things in these statements from both sides that don't belong, okay.
Speaker 1:Well, anyway, then she goes into the history of how Pakistan was formed, And I'm not even I mean, i wrote an abridged version, if you will. I just said you know I put let's see. then she goes into the history of how Pakistan was formed through the bloody battle with India, right after India gained their independence from Great Britain. She went into a much longer version.
Speaker 2:That's very interesting. I didn't know that.
Speaker 1:While she doesn't do a great job she describes. Both countries were economically destroyed, So young families sought refuge in more stable countries like the US now, where I think she's getting at here. See, here's my problem. I think that if you have to have, you know, like table graphs and history lesson right to try and grasp what it is she's trying to say, then she's not getting her point across. You know, just fricking, come out and say it. You know they have no intention of going back to Pakistan. There's no way these people are going to get on a plane and fly back to the country that they fled. Their intention was to come here and make a better life for themselves. So if you're worried about the dude leaving, he's not going. That's all I'm saying. Just thought I'd get that said. Sorry, I got a little loud. I mean, maybe that's not what she's trying to say, But it seems that's the only thing I can think of. But why she would do it here, I don't know. This isn't the proper place for her to make that argument.
Speaker 2:And we can't ask her because she's dead Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she's dead. Now I am going to, you know, kind of take a pause for a second, because there was a time that we spoke about his bail hearing And at that time we did discuss, where you know they did, this whole. You know he's going to fly back to Pakistan. Look at all these people that are here from his community. They're going to get together, they're going to, he's going to disappear and yada, yada, yada. So you know, i get it And it's possible that that's why she's making that point.
Speaker 1:But, it's like, you know, okay, a little late for that. That was for another time, not now, you know, thanks for playing, but also in my research and I'm not sure how I missed it or misremembered or whatever, and I had mentioned that. You know his bail was denied. obviously. One of the things that I totally forgot about was that his arrest papers stated that he was 18 at the time And he wasn't. He wasn't.
Speaker 2:He was 17. How soon was he going to turn 18?
Speaker 1:Oh man look at his birth date. I don't remember, but not the point.
Speaker 2:Anyway. Well, it might be. I mean, what if he's on the tail end of 17? All right, you know what?
Speaker 1:Because it's going to be a thing.
Speaker 2:I will look. I'm just saying we got to state some facts here, because if he's saying I don't usually know all your stuff is wrong, but what?
Speaker 1:I'm just arrested in in February. His birthdays in May, okay So, but I mean no, when he was arrested it had to do with his bail hearing. His bail hearing was in February.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but let me think about it If his birthday was in February and he turned 17. I disagree.
Speaker 1:His paperwork should have been accurate.
Speaker 2:Okay, not saying that they didn't get the age right. I'm just saying how they charge, how they charged him It had nothing to do with how he, how he was charged.
Speaker 1:Can I finish please? I guess It has to do with bail in Maryland if you are arrested at 18. I don't give a hooey if your birthday's the next day. It has to do with bail hearings. If you are 18, you automatically do not get bail. It has nothing to do with when your your next hearing is. It has to do with when your bail hearing hearing Bail hearing is. His bail hearing was during the time he was 17. Okay, so why did they?
Speaker 2:because they're assholes. So why didn't he fight that?
Speaker 1:By the way, before I start talking, i feel really bad that I'm derailing us yet again, because I know this is already going to be a long one, just because we are 26 minutes in and I feel like I just started on the opening statement. So I'm just going to say that ahead of time. I'm really sorry you guys, but I feel like if I don't talk about the things that I know that I need to kind of clarify, or, you know, talk about or correct or what have you, then I feel like I'm doing a disservice. So I'm just saying that, okay. So back to Dee's question.
Speaker 2:I honestly thought you were apologizing to me. I didn't even know you started recording. I mean, I really did. I thought you were really sincerely apologizing to me.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm sorry. Well, there is an apology.
Speaker 2:There is an apology.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry. No, I was apologizing to them, but.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry to you too. Okay, i accept.
Speaker 1:I mean, it is getting kind of late at night and you know sorry, so I am sorry to you too.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:So back to Dee's question, which was why didn't he fight it? And the answer to that is he did. He did fight it. There was a motion. I'm trying to look at the date. You know what. Actually, maybe at the end of this it'll be stamped or not at all. I love. I love when I look at one of these and it says hold on blank, okay.
Speaker 2:Maybe because it's not a real documentation. You know what?
Speaker 1:You know, i just apologize to you. I mean, are we really going there? Anyway, my point is just that his attorney, christina, filed a motion. It was a what was it?
Speaker 1:It was a motion for a review of no bail status based on change of circumstances And most of that. I shouldn't say most of that, but a lot of that had to do with the fact that he was wrongfully it was wrongfully stated Not that he was wrongfully charged, but the judge wrongfully stated that he was charged with capital murder, which is what it would have been had he been 18, but he wasn't So. but there was I don't know how many eight, nine, 10,. there was like nine or 10 different reasons why they were fighting it.
Speaker 2:And, but I mean that just shows the beginning of how bad all this Absolutely Yeah, Absolutely All bad all around. So he never had a fighting chance.
Speaker 1:Probably not. Yeah, you know, the prosecution immediately painted him as a flight risk, somebody who was going to, as soon as he had the chance, leave. They, you know, had him written down as you know capital murder, 18 years old. That just everything was bad.
Speaker 2:What causes a capital murder?
Speaker 1:It depends on the state.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:So in Maryland apparently it doesn't deter anybody either over 18 and murdering somebody, i'm assuming they mean first degree murder, which is, you know, intentional homicide.
Speaker 2:But if he did in fact murder her when he was 17,. That would not be capital murder. What was he charged with?
Speaker 1:I believe it was first degree murder.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:So the same. He's not being charged with anything different, except that it's not capital. So that means that it's not you know either.
Speaker 2:But he wasn't released on bail, even though it said he was 18.
Speaker 1:No, because if you're 18, you don't get bailed period Right.
Speaker 2:But it didn't in the paper say that he was 18? Yeah, okay, so he got no bail, right, but he got charged with first degree murder.
Speaker 1:No, They were reading it, so the judge was reading it as if he was 18, which is automatic capital murder Right.
Speaker 2:But when he was charged with murder and going to trial he was charged with Right With.
Speaker 1:I believe it was for.
Speaker 2:I'll look again, but I think it was first degree murder, so they messed up.
Speaker 1:Well, but at that point he was already on trial. It doesn't matter, you've already missed the opportunity for him to be out on bail. Who cares? They don't care, i know, but I'm just saying.
Speaker 2:I don't disagree with you. They just made mistakes left and right. They're just stupid.
Speaker 1:They don't care. It's like. It's like arguing that you want your, your charges dropped after you've already served your time. They don't care.
Speaker 2:I wonder if you can look at states by when it comes to their criminal history. Like what state has the worst criminal trials?
Speaker 1:like like as far as like like history of having like the most mistakes.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, i wonder if Baltimore comes in number one.
Speaker 1:I can tell you that it's one of the most corrupt, at least from what I hear. I don't know.
Speaker 2:I don't know. Oh, the California is too far behind either. Yeah well, okay anyway tangent over.
Speaker 1:Don't even get me started. Anyway, hopefully I didn't lose my spot. I'm. I don't remember, Oh, you know what. I know what triggered that that thought was because she was talking about Pakistan. So here I, I'm thinking this is why she brought it up, because they lost that fight And one of their arguments in that motion was because of the prosecutor labeling him somebody who was of light risk.
Speaker 2:Even though he was a born US citizen.
Speaker 1:Even though he, yeah, born US citizen, exactly. So I think that's why she's going through this whole. I'm going to give her a little bit of leeway. Even though it was kind of annoying, it's fine, okay, i'll let it go. So the other reason I think she's going into it is because she's going to go start going into explaining the community that he lives in. I think that people are threatened by it, as the prosecutor in the bail hearing kind of made it seem very threatening. You know, look at these people. They're so close, they're, you know, just making it out to be ill. That was very ignorant. I think I wrote that down, actually. I mean it's very ignorant.
Speaker 2:Go ahead. I think that people are so afraid of the stigma that this religion, this culture has. Yeah Cause, let's be real, a lot of us get fed our information on TV Of course And media. And none of it looks good. No, you know, we've been in war with them for like ever, right?
Speaker 1:Anyway, go ahead. I mean, and you'll see, in my notes I mentioned ignorance, but either here or there. So where did we leave off, Okay? So I said, well, she doesn't do a great job. She describes how both countries were economically destroyed. I did read this. So young families sought refuge in, you know, more stable countries like the US, since they felt they had no choice but to leave. It was under what did I put? Different circumstances that brought them Meaning different circumstances than previous immigrants. So, like I think she's trying to draw comparisons from you know, the immigration waves from the past, where they came, they assimilated, they learned English, they they tried to take on our, our fashion, our language, our religion, our cultures, our traditions, our stuff like that, and in this instance they didn't.
Speaker 1:And so she's trying to show why, Because, for the most part, that's why people are more afraid, if you will And I use afraid very loosely, but they are they're more threatened. So she's trying to in her.
Speaker 2:Well, it's like the prosecution stated what most people think and feel regarding that community.
Speaker 1:So this is her broken, no connection way of doing it And I think I'm kind of putting more connections together for her just to make my head less hurt, But only because it makes sense to me why she was doing this. But anyway, so she is, she's trying, and I think I even put she makes the argument that let me see where am I? I know I'm too far ahead, Hold on. So refuge Okay.
Speaker 2:So see, even her phone wants to get past all of this, You know seriously.
Speaker 1:So, you know, they suffered religious persecution, economical devastation, which is why they kept their religion, their language, culture, traditions, beliefs, and they wanted to pass it down to their children so that they were able to keep those things from dying out. And I think that that was, you know, a fear of theirs, or that's what she's trying to convey. And she stated that. She said you know, i'm sorry, i'm sorry. She makes the argument that it's a religion that's been around for centuries, before any one of us could ever trace our incenses. You know, she's giving it historical context, because I think she's trying to make people feel dumb. She doesn't do a good job, but I think that's what she's trying to do. I think she wants to paint it in a much lighter light. This religion has been around for centuries, beyond centuries.
Speaker 2:I get it, but I think what basically she's trying to do is state that the way that so many people view the Middle Eastern countries is that of violence.
Speaker 1:Right, Which is also not correct.
Speaker 2:Right, but again, what do we know?
Speaker 1:Right, but you know it's like, well, i almost got somewhere. I didn't want to. There's a lot of things that people believe certain faction of people are, but they're not.
Speaker 2:It's just what they hear Just what they hear.
Speaker 1:Yeah, So again it's.
Speaker 2:And I mean in a way, if you think about it, from the beginning of his court battles he has been marked as a flight risk. You know the scary.
Speaker 1:Muslim. Yeah, no, i agree, and so she should?
Speaker 2:I don't, yeah, i don't mind. She should be able to state how 100%.
Speaker 1:His background of growing up wasn't that of violence and I actually this is the only part, for the most part, that I actually enjoyed of her opening statement, because it was probably the most truthful, the most raw, the most You actually get from her, because it actually states something that people can hold on to and understand and grasp. You know it's trying to paint a different picture. You know the prosecution painted this picture of Adnan as being a liar who lived a double life, Who you know. You know people at home thought he was this goody, two shoes, and then he was this playa, playa when he was out and smoking pot and like this big old murderer and all of these other things.
Speaker 1:And I think that what she's trying to show is that, you know, in the grand scheme of things, you know Muslims tend to keep their religion and their traditions and their faith very protected And it's a very big part of their life. And you know, for children and I'll be getting into this and you'll understand where I'm going, But you know it can be a lot You know the parents expect a lot from their kids. So I'm going to go on. So this is where I was talking about, where I kind of agreed with you with the whole ignorance thing. I said I think she's trying to make the Muslim community sound less threatening. And then I made that little note, not sure why it would seem threatening, although it could simply be because of ignorance.
Speaker 1:So she ties this long explanation into being no different than Chinatown or little Italy, because she talks about how other groups of immigrants have come to the United States and they formed communities. You know, you go along the big cities and you see places like Chinatown or Koreatown or you know, and those places are basically the same as this community that Adnan lives in. So she was just trying to make it more either understandable or less threatening sounding, or both, I don't know. And I said, although I think it was a much smaller community than those like Chinatown or whatever, I don't know, I just think they are smaller, But I don't know what my point was, but I did say it was smaller. She goes into another diatribe about the parents' fears of the children being exposed to things that weren't part of their belief system. So they ended up pulling their money together to build a school, but that wasn't something that was available to Adnan. So basically she's saying now they have a school available for the, you know, the kids, But what?
Speaker 2:Okay now, what were the families expectations when they came to the United States? They're coming here, where it is a free country. You're able to pray, have your own beliefs, religions.
Speaker 1:But remember, you know, the Muslim faith is very strict.
Speaker 2:That means which I five times a day, which I understand. But when they come to the United States and there's schools for all kids, public schools, whatever, what were their expectations?
Speaker 1:Well, and I think that that's what she's getting into was that, you know, here they are in a strange country that has totally different belief systems, culture and so forth, and they had to let go of their children for seven or eight hours a day, going into a completely different atmosphere and, you know, being influenced by people that believed completely different things, and so it made it difficult for them to have that hold on their kids, and so that's what she's. That's exactly right, literally what she was just going into. So why?
Speaker 2:wouldn't he be able to qualify for a school that they built. It's not that he didn't qualify, they didn't have it.
Speaker 1:Oh, they didn't have it at the time, right She's basically saying that since then they've pulled all their money together, but this wasn't something that was available for Audemars. They didn't have it at that time. But again he had to go out into the community, But again or out of the community.
Speaker 2:But again they are in a community in the United States And their people are going to have to mingle with the outside groups.
Speaker 1:I mean they can if they want. I mean, look at the on-ish. I know They don't really mingle. No they do, though I mean a little bit. They like to sell us really expensive like furniture. Oh my gosh. Have you ever seen how expensive that furniture is?
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it's all handmade I understand, but dang, i mean they're not using power tools on that stuff, dang.
Speaker 1:It's like a $12,000 desk. It's so pretty.
Speaker 2:I'm so pretty. Anyway, okay, i'm just moving in my chair. I'm so uncomfortable, i'm so sorry.
Speaker 1:I need like a lounge chair I thought that was a lounge chair. I don't have to put my legs up.
Speaker 2:Anyway, I need a bed.
Speaker 1:That would be nice. So just drag my mattress over here, Anyway. so I guess where she's going with this is that you know, Adnan was going to a regular school where his friends accepted him for his differences. She then claimed that because they were this was my favorite part, Okay. so I already discussed that whole. the parents were worried about them going into, like the schools, and being influenced Yeah, the adiata. Okay, so she's off of that now. Now she's talking about how all of these gifted, talented people, they're basically geeks. That's basically where we are now.
Speaker 2:So they're smart and they're just automatically geeks, right.
Speaker 1:That's basically she said they weren't with it.
Speaker 2:Got it She was the latest stereotype there.
Speaker 1:It's funny because she had, like this beautiful speech about Adnan and his community and their faith and religion and this and that, and then it's period. So anyway, there's these kids and they're basically all geeks. I'm like hello, where did that come from? Right, it's like I just got whiplash.
Speaker 2:Where'd we go.
Speaker 1:Yep, anyway. so here we are, anyway. so these geeks who quote unquote weren't with it. It took them longer to drink to date to, and she was very careful with doing drugs.
Speaker 2:It was like you know, not bad drugs, you know just the recreational drugs, you know having sex and blah, but I mean well, I find it funny because I read an article describing Adnan and his personality or his looks or something that he was like the Mac Daddy of the ladies.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, i've heard that before. Yeah, i'm like, so you're going? okay, yeah, these, these geeks right.
Speaker 2:I mean he had all sorts of girls want to date him.
Speaker 1:Well, ps, you know she's, she's about to, we'll get there, okay, hold on. So anyway. And then she mentions that you know it took them longer to have all you know do all this stuff, including having sex. So when they got to 17, they started to do those things. Is it me or is 17 an okay age to start doing those things? I'm not saying that, you know, maybe 15 or something like that, sometimes kids do it, but 17 is still an okay age. I don't think that that's late.
Speaker 2:No, it's probably refreshing.
Speaker 1:But anyway, apparently they're geeks and they started late.
Speaker 2:Anyway, this is a reminder Don't have sex, wait for a very long time.
Speaker 1:I kind of hope that these are adults, so it's probably a little late.
Speaker 2:You guys can still hold on Okay, okay, so anyway so don't drink, don't do drugs, don't be like Jay. Wow, okay, i'm done, all right.
Speaker 1:So anyway. So then she depicts Hey as being Adnan's first girlfriend. However, I have a memory of reading, like I don't remember if it was interviews like that the cops did, or something that mentioned that Adnan had dated before. Could be wrong, Pretty sure he did. But okay, we'll just go ahead and say that Hey was his first girlfriend. Okay, Because you know he's this scared little boy who. What about her? Oh, we're getting there, So anyway. So then she she talks about. You know that he chose the junior prom to be the night that he started to quote unquote step out away from the norms of his religion. She tells the jury that other children at the mosque were doing the same and that nobody had a right to judge them for it. Who's judging? I'm just reading. She argues that when these kids are put in environments that are away from their family's religion and norms, it's natural for them to be influenced by that environment, which is why their parents were worried.
Speaker 2:Hello, I know, but they're teenagers still Of course they're doing teenagery things And I'd like to know in Pakistan, what are their men allowed to be able to do there? Pretty much anything, right, it's the women who have the stricter rules.
Speaker 1:But in case you didn't pick up on it, because this is what my notes say, it sounds like she's making an argument about the state's assertion that Adnan was living a double life. So it wasn't so much Yeah, but I don't think it was then we all were.
Speaker 2:Well, but I mean, think about it. He had to hide the fact that he went to dances with her. My mom never met any of my boyfriends.
Speaker 1:That's not what I said. I went places without my mom knowing, okay, but that's not what I said.
Speaker 2:He had to hide the fact that he went to a dance with a girl.
Speaker 1:Okay, because they're not allowed to do that? I get that, but how is that any different than me hiding the fact that I have boyfriends?
Speaker 2:That's on you, but what I'm saying is that the same thing, but but a cultural thing, when the guy is not allowed to interact with anybody anybody, but I mean I get is a totally different scenario.
Speaker 1:All I'm saying is is that when you are not truthful with what you're doing with your parents, then you can make the argument that you're living a double life, or it's just called being a teenager.
Speaker 2:Right, of course, but look at it like this You weren't really, i guess I look at, look at living a double life as somebody who's like I'm married and I'm having a long term affair.
Speaker 1:As for an adult, not a child, right, but I mean, i was a child, i don't care if he was 17.
Speaker 2:He was a child, i mean yeah, and he made big boy decisions and had really bad big boyfriends.
Speaker 1:Okay, why'd you make that sound so scary?
Speaker 2:Because it is.
Speaker 1:I mean, he had friends who had a really bad boyfriend. Maybe she shouldn't have been dating him, But anyway well, i'm sure she didn't want to date him.
Speaker 2:She wanted to date Adnan Oh now we're getting way off track. Okay, let's go.
Speaker 1:Okay, anyway, so that was my. My feeling is that she's, she's explaining you know where Adnan is.
Speaker 2:As far as living a double life.
Speaker 1:Thank you, not you.
Speaker 2:No, but I was explaining, but go ahead.
Speaker 1:Okay. She then goes into the oh, the content of the contents of Hay's diary and that Adnan was not her first boyfriend, that she had been previously hurt by a boy who cheated on her, who she also loved. She makes the point that in the diary it says nothing about Adnan doing anything but giving her space when Hay wanted space. And then she goes on to read about the best friend, that the letter if you listen to the previous podcast it's my opening to our podcast, which is the letter, that or not the letter it was. it was basically the best friend was asked you know, can you describe Adnan's character? And that's when she went into. she said he's laid back, funny, always joking, completely understanding, compassionate, willing to do anything for anyone, very good listener, gave advice when we, when he could, faithful, loyal, protective of friends and loved ones, spiritual, very respectful I'm sorry, very respectful of everyone, polite, loving and supportive. And that was after Hay's body was found and he was implicated but not arrested.
Speaker 2:Right And again, no one has ever said anything negative about him. So you know, i go back and forth, still racking my brain of who could possibly have done this.
Speaker 1:And we talked about it earlier because we were like you know, when somebody has, like you know, the personality of someone who can do this, you know they snap once in a while or at some point, or here and there. You know he's a really nice guy.
Speaker 2:But you know right, Or I mean, there's always that. I never thought that person could do this. They never seem like that type of person. But I think there is something that people might overlook And I don't know. I mean, besides the fact that this guy hangs out with Jay and smokes, weed, but he doesn't.
Speaker 1:He doesn't hang out with him Right, because he really didn't.
Speaker 2:And so that's why it makes me weird that Jay would say oh yeah, like Yeah, let's go hang out. He totally like told me he was gonna kill Hay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like in what world would Adnan just open up like that to somebody he doesn't even hang out with And if he is so, if he represents his religion as much as he does, excluding Hay and his teenage life, I don't believe he would share that information. I don't think he would either. I think he's too private. I think that's too private of a religion and the culture to share that type of stuff with.
Speaker 1:I agree, i don't think so either.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:There's just something, something is stinky and hard.
Speaker 2:I can't stand this case. I'm like wanting to pull my hair out.
Speaker 1:You're welcome.
Speaker 2:I didn't know it was gonna be this long.
Speaker 1:It's like a Oh I did.
Speaker 2:It's like a Star Wars trilogy It just never stops. And one I don't get. I don't even get Star Wars, but go ahead.
Speaker 1:So anyway. So again, this was before Adnan was arrested, after he was implicated and after Hay's body was discovered. And then, like I was about to say, then she goes into what I had read before our podcast yesterday, which is that that was what she said after he had been arrested. So when she talks about their relationship because the question to her was describe their relationship, and that was how she described it It was the. They loved each other. They never fought around anyone, they were. Everything was great in their relationship, even when it wasn't. And the last thing that she said was both were happy but knew it wouldn't last forever. And I think that's an important line Both of them were happy but they knew it wouldn't last forever. And if they both knew it wouldn't last forever, then why would Adnan kill her? because he was besmirched? Well, that word.
Speaker 2:You know? I mean I guess we could. While you were talking I was kind of thinking surprisingly, but I think one if he respected her and loved her. I think about the way that her body was found And I get that maybe the ground was too cold and he couldn't dig a big enough hole or whatever, But it feels to me like she was just kind of thrown in there and squished in there. Yeah, like her. I don't know, when you look at like crimes of passion, they cover them Big time.
Speaker 1:Like. you can't even find them, you can't see their face.
Speaker 2:You can't find them, yeah, this was done in a like.
Speaker 1:Even if it's done where they can't put them in a hole or something, they're blanketed so they can't see their face.
Speaker 2:That or it's like they don't leave anything for the families. Yeah, you know. So there's that. I was thinking about that, and then I was thinking of the rage. Okay, so maybe he was jealous that she was going out with somebody else, but he was dating somebody else, but he was dating somebody else. But if I can't have her, then nobody can have her.
Speaker 1:But then why be dating somebody else?
Speaker 2:Because they both knew it wasn't gonna last. Like it doesn't make.
Speaker 1:The connections. There's just a misfire everywhere. Like nothing makes sense And it just. It shocks me that people sat on this jury like 100% he did it Right, because I mean, while you know, guilty beyond a reasonable doubt doesn't equal 100%, there's gotta be like a 99.5 in there.
Speaker 2:And you know me, i go on emotion When we go through these things. I am so lost, i know I'm so lost And I think that's why, like, i get interested and then I lose interest because I can't figure it out.
Speaker 1:It's hard, this is a hard one, and so for me, i think the reason why I always had a hard time with the case isn't so much because I lose interest. I don't lose interest. It's heartbreaking to me on so many levels because obviously, you know, hey never had the justice she deserved.
Speaker 2:Not at all.
Speaker 1:Then I go back to our justice system. You know, i something I have always had for you know you will talk about religion. I had so much faith in our justice system. And then I look at this and I'm like what the hell happened? There's no justice anywhere in this case. There was no justice for her.
Speaker 2:There was no for him, the families, everything.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry there was no justice for him. You know, it doesn't matter to me at this point whether or not he had his rights trampled or not. I'm looking at this case and there just isn't enough evidence for you to convince me. And I know, look, we haven't even gotten to the testimony yet. I'm just saying, and the only big evidence.
Speaker 2:Key evidence they had was his fingerprint in her car. It was a palm print, okay, but he dated her for like a. What a year.
Speaker 1:Not only that, it was his palm print on a map that was torn. It was a torn piece of map that happened to be included in the area of the Lincoln Park, but so was everywhere else in their vicinity, because Lincoln Park wasn't that far away, first of all. Second of all, they also had just gone on a picnic not that long ago, so why did they But?
Speaker 2:they dated, of course, yeah.
Speaker 1:So many reasons why that it doesn't none of it makes sense.
Speaker 2:None of it makes sense. And the thing I think people forget about, especially like if you're here in California or in warmer climates, which we do get cold, but back there it gets really cold, So you're not gonna go wash your car all the time If it's snowing, if it's rainy, your car's gonna get dirty from all the salt that they put on the streets and stuff, so I don't know when they broke up, but It was the middle of December.
Speaker 2:Okay, there you go. So she didn't wash her car, so the likelihood of his palm being anywhere on that car, any part of the fingerprints, whatever, it's gonna be there, it's gonna be there, it's gonna be there.
Speaker 1:So, anyway, i mean, don't worry, we will go through the trial, even if he doesn't want to. It's not gonna happen tonight, It's not that.
Speaker 2:I'm losing interest. What it is is. It tires my brain to the point that I have to stop and I can't think about it.
Speaker 1:There's a lot I'm not gonna. I mean, I don't think that there's ever been a case where I can't even get through opening statements from one side. Yeah, In an episode.
Speaker 2:I know this is really ridiculous.
Speaker 1:I mean, we're at an hour and I'm gonna be wrapping this up And I'm not even done, but I'm gonna at least finish what I have here.
Speaker 1:Oh God, okay It's gonna take just a couple of minutes, because this is it. This is all I'm gonna talk about. I swear, because all I'm gonna say is that you know, she talks about their relationship, yada, yada, yada, and then I don't know there's really. I mean because, okay, so she refers to, she referred to Adnan as her soulmate And oh, that's what it was, okay. so after the breakup, apparently Hay was still sending messages to Adnan via page.
Speaker 1:you know how you can you used to be able to send you know number messages or whatever. So okay. So the best friend also stated she she didn't really know who initiated the breakup, which I find interesting because you would think that she'd know, which also makes me think this might be Debbie, but again, that's just an assumption. I don't know that to be true. But even after he referred to Adnan as her soulmate and sent pages that said I love you and I miss you. There's nothing depicting rage, only love. However, she does find a new soulmate. This is continuing on. No longer the best friend, she does find another soulmate, which is Dawn.
Speaker 2:So we're all the men that she dates soulmates. Apparently, and she loves them all Kay we have daddy, as she is, but go ahead.
Speaker 1:Clearly She meets him January 1st. She then starts to sound like she's trying to implicate Stephanie by painting her as jealous, and then she starts blaming Jay for influencing the group of kids with his drinking, drugs and everything else.
Speaker 2:Oh, oh yeah. So she started causing a little bit of drama.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, Oh, that's new Stephanie. No, Jay.
Speaker 2:Oh, Jay is saying this. She's saying that Jay is doing this, right, yeah, so she's starting a little bit of drama You're talking about.
Speaker 1:Christina Yeah, oh yeah. She's saying that Jay is the one that's getting all these kids into drinking and drugs, and you know he works at a porn store. You know, but that's actually what she said. Okay, he works in a porn store. She doesn't say anything after that, but you know just you know?
Speaker 2:You know, it's probably because he actually is in some of those videos And she's a little jelly.
Speaker 1:Okay, now we can put a period on that. Also, according to Christina Gutierrez, she also stated that Jay would use Stephanie's car, which we knew he would use it several times a week, he stated for work. Right, but not so much. According to Ms Gutierrez, she states he used it and other people's cars because he was stepping out on Stephanie.
Speaker 2:Yes, was any picking up chicks in Stephanie's car? Was he? I thought I heard you read that earlier. Tell me.
Speaker 1:No, no, i think he was. I mean on here, yes, yeah, like on my notes, that was part of her.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's a good bra, that's a good bra, bra, bra Bra.
Speaker 1:So, um, yeah, she's, um, she's starting some fights with words.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she is.
Speaker 1:Well, look, if, if one can play, so can the other.
Speaker 2:I mean.
Speaker 1:Eurek was pulling some punches himself, definitely. So I mean, bring out the gloves. I mean we already know who wins, so you know right. So I mean, like I really wish we can get through these quicker. I'm really hoping the testimony goes faster, me too. I mean, i really do. I will tell you this. Okay, so anything that has to do with officers, more than likely I will skip. Not officers, i shouldn't say officers, forensics. Um, so, like the first couple of witnesses, it's all about chain of custody. We don't need those, we don't care, we get it. I marked this and I gave it to that and I did this. It's all they're doing is that they're establishing chain of custody more than likely. I probably will not go over that, because who cares? So a lot of that we can skip. We'll just get to the juicy stuff.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:All right. All right, we'll stop here. I'm not saying that I won't have more of the opening statements, in case there's anything else I want to say when we start next time. But I'm just throwing it out there.
Speaker 2:Okay, all right, until next time which won't be too long from now.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, bye, bye.