How can we make sense of the complex case of Adnan Syed and the murder of Hae Min Lee? What was the motive behind the crime, if Adnan was indeed involved? Join us as we dig into the relationships, motives, and testimonies surrounding this thought-provoking and controversial case that has captured the attention of millions through the Serial podcast.
In our episode, we delve into the dynamics between Adnan and Hae, the role of prosecution's star witness Jay, and the challenges of piecing together the facts amidst hearsay and inconsistent testimonies. We also explore the potential impact of cultural biases present in the trial and the difficulty of forming a valid motive based on the limited information we have about what really happened that day. As we analyze the testimonies and timelines, we consider possibilities such as why Jay and Jenn’s testimonies differ so dramatically when they were such good friends.
With so many twists and turns, it's no wonder this case has gripped the world's attention. Tune in as we offer our own theories on what may have happened and continue the conversation that Serial began. You won't want to miss this deep dive into the case that has left us all questioning the truth and seeking answers.
How can we make sense of the complex case of Adnan Syed and the murder of Hae Min Lee? What was the motive behind the crime, if Adnan was indeed involved? Join us as we dig into the relationships, motives, and testimonies surrounding this thought-provoking and controversial case that has captured the attention of millions through the Serial podcast.
In our episode, we delve into the dynamics between Adnan and Hae, the role of prosecution's star witness Jay, and the challenges of piecing together the facts amidst hearsay and inconsistent testimonies. We also explore the potential impact of cultural biases present in the trial and the difficulty of forming a valid motive based on the limited information we have about what really happened that day. As we analyze the testimonies and timelines, we consider possibilities such as why Jay and Jenn’s testimonies differ so dramatically when they were such good friends.
With so many twists and turns, it's no wonder this case has gripped the world's attention. Tune in as we offer our own theories on what may have happened and continue the conversation that Serial began. You won't want to miss this deep dive into the case that has left us all questioning the truth and seeking answers.
In this podcast we discuss sensitive subject matter And if you listened to the last seven episodes confusing too, listener, discretion is advised. Happy, confusing day to you, Dee.
Speaker 2:Wow, it took a while to get here. Well, you know, things happen in life. They really do. I wanted to say that I really like the intro you did this week.
Speaker 1:You know it took some thought, Not really Honestly, I think it just came naturally.
Speaker 2:It sounded like it did, and I couldn't agree more with you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, the more we dig, the worse it gets You know, I'm so over it. You know, I never really thought I'd get here, And yet here I am.
Speaker 2:With being over it. I have arrived. Oh, thank God.
Speaker 1:And not because I'm tired of the case. I mean I love this case. I mean we were just listening to or watching something not too long ago And I still get chills.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I still get chills watching this stuff and reading this stuff and going over this stuff, but I got to tell you, like being on this end of the microphone and going over it, yeah, i want to be a listener.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's. you know. you would ask me what are my thoughts? Am I even listening? Well, yes, but what can I possibly say to make a reason out of absolute nonsense? You can't.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Those transcripts were nonsense.
Speaker 1:I mean, well, the transcripts, that was one story And the testimony a whole other opera. I mean. So my plan coming in here was to go over testimony. And really I mean, it's not that I'm not going to go over testimony, i'm just going to save us grief of going Like maybe like six more episodes.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, i mean you're talking about a six week trial. It took entire episodes just to go over each of the opening statements, you know, and that's also because you have to stop and explain and talk, and you know it's not like I'm sitting here and reading a book, you know. I mean, some may or may not know I do that, believe it or not, i read books for a living. But honestly, that's not what we're doing. We're speaking about it and making commentary on it And, for those that are not familiar with certain things, explaining And you know it takes a lot. So imagine going through six weeks of trial And that's after going through seven episodes just to get here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's been draining of the mind.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I thought about it and I came up with this idea, and I mean people can give me their opinions, you know. I mean there is So much information on this that it's amazing that anybody can make heads or tails and could have even come up with a decision. However, i thought about it and, you know, think back to like 2000. And really did they have that much information? Not really, you know. I mean, this case really took off when serial happened, right?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:You know I think it was one of the attorneys that basically said that you know he had the benefit of having thousands and thousands and thousands of armchair investigators at his fingertips because once serial took off, people were going crazy.
Speaker 2:Well, i think a lot of the time too, is that because it was such a new platform, like they said, no one knew what a podcast was at the time, right? So you have this new platform and people are like, whoa, this is a whole new way of listening to things. It's not the news, it's not court TV. This is like us giving our opinions and doing research that we wouldn't normally be able to find.
Speaker 1:Right, or hear about, or you know research that you know sometimes attorneys can't afford because they're not being paid to, or what have you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we can look at that as being very good for this type of case, because they found that there was so much lacking by providing any reasonable doubt. Correct, so beyond a reasonable doubt, right Yeah.
Speaker 1:So, I mean, the one thing that obviously we're going to talk about is the prosecution star witness.
Speaker 2:Oh, my favorite person.
Speaker 1:I know, i know, i know we've all grown to love and J, love and J. We are loving J, love and adore J No.
Speaker 2:No, not feeling it, not one bit. And I still stand with what I said in the very first episode. He's your number one, he is. He's just so shady and you cannot get a straight answer from him, even if he is trained to give you a straight answer from the police.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, he can't give it to you. He's grown. He has grown exponentially into being my number one.
Speaker 2:As dumb as he is. He may not be that dumb. He might actually be very smart, if we look at it this way, because he started working with the cops Well that, and he has really just flipped this case completely upside down. I mean, it's like it's like that tiny little snowball that starts to go down the mountain and that gets bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger And you just you can't stop it.
Speaker 1:Well, you know he did an interview with the Intercept and I'll get into that in a little more depth at some point. But you know he was asked about why he had given so many different stories And, by the way it was counted, in different locations he was. He had given from his initial interview until the last time he testified.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Seven different locations. What happened where it was that he ended up seeing the body for?
Speaker 1:the first time Yeah, seven different locations.
Speaker 2:How do you forget something?
Speaker 1:that important.
Speaker 2:You don't.
Speaker 1:So what was his excuse? So his reasoning was because he didn't trust the police and he really wasn't cooperating.
Speaker 2:Oh yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I mean, he was kind of sort of cooperating but he didn't want to give him all the information because, like, he just kind of was like, well, yeah, i mean it happened and everything, and you know he did help Adnan and all of that happened, but he literally wasn't willing to give them all the information. So he was just kind of whatever saying whatever, yeah, we were here, nah, we were over there, nah, we were over here, and he definitely didn't want to give him or give them his grandmother's information because you know, he was so afraid that, you know, the cops would roll up on his grandmother's house and that couldn't happen because you know, he ran his weed business out of there. I mean, he was really concerned about his grandmother and her well-being.
Speaker 2:Right, And you know.
Speaker 1:And really it's where he ran his weed business.
Speaker 2:And here's a guy who kept tons of money on him at all times, right.
Speaker 1:Like that $5 bill.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly what I'm talking about when he went shopping for his girlfriend's birthday present. Yeah For $5? No.
Speaker 1:the $5 was for weed We'll get into that. Oh, that's right, that's right, that's all he had to pitch in for weed And you know this is all part of his testimony, so I am going to go over it. I just think that we can cut it down so that we can get into the appeals that he went through and then get to the vacature, the reversal of the vacature. There's a lot still going on. His court battles are not over And they're not over.
Speaker 2:But I also am looking forward to giving the listeners kind of where we stand and maybe possibly different motives for different people. And I mean, i'm not at all convinced that Adnan acted alone in this, besides the fact that we obviously know that Jay helped bury the body, which was also done really crappy too.
Speaker 1:Right Now, at this point, are you thinking that Adnan had something to do with it then? Because the way you said that made it seem like you did, which I haven't heard yet.
Speaker 2:I just I don't know. I don't know. I think we have to listen to a bit more. I don't think that Adnan had a real valid well, i mean, does anybody really have a valid reason for killing somebody? But like, besides the fact that she was dating somebody else, there's really no you know reason. He was seeing other people. She was seeing other people. Both of them seemed happy and fine with each other. They were friends.
Speaker 1:They were really good friends. I mean, i mean, at this point I can't even remember what I've mentioned, what I haven't mentioned, but I believe it was in December, early January, definitely after they broke up, when Hayes Carr broke down. It had to have been early January because she had already started dating Don. Her car broke down. She called Adnan, she didn't call Don, why? Because they were still really good friends. So there really wasn't any kind of motive or anything that showed that Adnan was bitter or angry or whatever. When it first happened, sure, his friend said he was sad. I mean, who isn't sad when you break up?
Speaker 2:I think the thing too is what kind of drives me crazy in a lot of cases is, say, the prime suspect isn't grieving the way that people think they should grieve when someone's missing, is killed dead. whatever you want to say, there isn't a right way to grieve.
Speaker 1:No, everybody grieves different.
Speaker 2:When he was told about her death, his friend said did you have something to do with this? He kind of laughed. Well, he didn't say what kind of laugh it was. Was it a nervous laugh? Was it a shocked laugh?
Speaker 1:Well, it was actually. He laughed and he was like no man, what the hell are you talking?
Speaker 2:about Exactly. So you're sitting here going like what? It could be something like that, but they didn't say how. That is not like what. Man? what are you talking about?
Speaker 1:Yeah, like goofy laugh, But it's also in the way in which the person telling the story tells the story. So I mean that has a lot to do with it too.
Speaker 2:Well, that brings up a good point, because they weren't the best of friends.
Speaker 1:They were the best of friends, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, saeed, saw it, saw it sorry.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But again, people are saying well, he never tried to get a hold of her during that whole time she was missing. He never paged her, He never, he never did anything. And you know, I, I don't know what I would have done. My ex-boyfriend goes missing, why am I paging him Right?
Speaker 2:You know I? what is it going to do if they're missing, Are they? Oh, wait a second. Let me stop real quick, cause Kat is is paging me. I'm going to stop what. I'm doing and I'm going to call her and let her know that I'm fine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, It's like it's not as if people haven't tried paging her She obviously, if she ran away, she doesn't want to be found.
Speaker 2:The other thing too is you know at some point I know we'll possibly go back to it, but her car was put as like for the missing person and that allows you know her car. Look out for this vehicle, whatever, and it would have been parked somewhere for a long while.
Speaker 1:And according to the police, it had been there the whole time. There's speculation that it had been moved there recently, but it had then been found out that the people that had gotten, i guess, had done soil samples and stuff like that for the undisclosed podcast, i guess or it wasn't just the I'm sorry, not the undisclosed podcast, but the HBO special they had done. I guess they never really gave you a conclusion because they didn't really like the conclusion they came up with, which was that it was all correct for it being there for the time period.
Speaker 2:Right, because they said that it never got mowed as long as they had been there for like 20, 30 years, but that car wasn't hiding.
Speaker 1:No, it was out in the open for sure. For sure, like. but again, you know, based on Jay's interview and everything like that, they were also driving around town in it. So I you know yeah, I just have.
Speaker 2:I don't know. I think the part that is like questionable for me is, yes, a non spent time with Jay, possibly that afternoon if the dates are correct, And there isn't a day where they messed up and thought maybe it was this day versus that day, whatever you want to say, But he did spend time with him that day. That's my only reason to question anything, but there's so much time lost in this timeline.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, i want to start with. Obviously there is a lot of testimony before we get to Jay's dating Hayes brother and we may go back and revisit that. Hayes brother, you know obviously was young, grieving. You know it was a sad situation. I think really the only thing that was revealed in the testimony from Hayes brother was that he was aware of Adnan. He was aware that Adnan and Hay were dating. He was aware that they broke up. He was also aware that Hay was dating somebody else. He was not aware that Haye referred to their mother's ex-fiance as her father because as far as he was concerned, that relationship was over with their mother, cut ties done. He also basically alluded to the fact that you know they weren't happy, nor were they mad about their mother's relationship with this particular person. It just was what it was because their mom said so. It doesn't seem like it was that way for Hay. For Hay it seemed a bit more, i think, important having a father figure, and young doesn't seem to know that about her.
Speaker 2:Why is that of any significance? I?
Speaker 1:think it's only significant because and it's not really significant I think that it comes more of a shock to him when anybody brings up any information about her running away, because she had brought it up to several people, or at least a minimum of two people. she had talked about moving to California. Now we also know high school kids can be a lot of talk and she may have talked up this relationship with her quote-unquote dad more than it was just because she fantasized having a relationship with a father figure. We don't know. But for whatever reason, it's definitely not something that young knew about Hay, or he had no idea that she referred to this guy in California as her father And it's not really relevant except to say that there are obviously things that he didn't know. So that's pretty much it As far as I can see on his testimony. you know he talked about obviously the fact that he didn't know that he was missing until he received the phone call saying that you know their cousin hadn't been picked up.
Speaker 1:I've heard all kinds of different time frames that the cousin was supposed to be picked up 3 o'clock, 3.15, 3.30, all of these different timelines. The most recent I heard was 3 o'clock. I'm just going with 3 o'clock because it sounds the most reasonable for a school to get out. So when the cousin wasn't picked up, the school called the house. he answered the phone and he immediately knew something was wrong, because that's not like he to not pick up their cousin. And then he alerted the uncle and then it just kind of spiraled from there. He called friends, he got his diary, thought he was calling Don, got Adnan and so forth. Police were called and that's really his main involvement in the case. initially, nothing really more than that, because the family had kind of a spokesperson to do interviews and stuff like that. The mom pretty much shut down. She, i mean she lost her daughter. you know, i mean that's difficult.
Speaker 2:I, you know I have a tough time with her family. only because of how they treated her when she was alive Doesn't mean that they deserve to have her gone. Of course not. But I feel like, especially in the beginning, when I was learning about this case, I was kind of I know I brought it up to you as possibly her uncle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I kind of felt the same way.
Speaker 2:They certainly made her feel very much like a prisoner.
Speaker 1:Well, they actually imprisoned her.
Speaker 2:Right, but at the same time, like you know, i mean the way that they treated her.
Speaker 1:Now I understand and I respect that cultures are different And maybe that's how much it was at her mom and how much was it her uncle and grandmother.
Speaker 2:Well, right, we don't know, we don't know, we don't know. But at the same time there was more of a thing with the grandmother, but at the same time, the mother has rights as well And to say no, no, no, you're not treating my daughter this way. But then we also get the mother, the grandmother, who might be really dominating, and that loud Korean culture.
Speaker 1:The daughter of the mother and who happens to be Hayes grandmother, I mean and, of course, the dynamics.
Speaker 2:The husband isn't there to be the voice of reason, whatever it might be, but the brother is somewhat close to Haye I don't know how close, and that's part of the thing that bothers me as well is. I feel like he really wasn't close to her.
Speaker 1:But then I get the feeling that they know because there was that, that thing that I read in her diary that spoke about her brother.
Speaker 2:I know, but I just I don't know. I don't know if it's the female, male thing. I don't know.
Speaker 1:Now, it doesn't mean that he felt that way about her, but she definitely did about him.
Speaker 2:Well, that's good, i'm glad, And I'm not saying that sarcastically. There's just different sides to that family that I don't care for, and they're not the ones on trial. I understand that.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:I just would have hoped that the police did their due diligence and looked into the family dynamics, 100%.
Speaker 1:And again, like we've talked about before, there was something funky about her being locked at her uncle's on top of her uncle's store or whatever that was. That seemed like it was an apartment of sorts, right, and was it his? and why was she locked there?
Speaker 2:But the other thing, too, is so she goes through this history, this family history of abuse towards her however you want to call it, and writes in her journal that you know Adnan is possessive. Well, what does that mean in her world Right?
Speaker 1:That's true. I mean that can mean you know he likes being around her, yeah, or you know, i don't get a chance to breathe because he always wants to have his arm around me, or he wants, or is he locking her in an apartment?
Speaker 2:I don't know Right.
Speaker 1:And it's, you know, a teenage girl who's writing about things that she may not fully be able to express, and we also know about hey, based on her diary and the things that her friends say, that she's very emotional, very dramatic, very, you know, fantastical, if you will.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So and I don't mean any of these things in a bad way, no, this is just how her personality was, so everything was very big.
Speaker 2:And, of course, all they really have as a voice for her is her diary, right Yeah?
Speaker 1:So, you know, these are all things to take into consideration when you think about what it is she's saying, when she says the things she does, including the letter she wrote saying that he's not taking their break up very well, which, again, you know, i don't even know how to take that.
Speaker 2:Well, right, and you sit here and go. Okay, they've been together for a while, right, they loved each other. They shared a lot of things between the two of them, and a lot of it had to be secretive from their families.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So that there is, that's a big deal, But to sit there and say how is he supposed to act? He was sad.
Speaker 1:He was sad, heartbroken, whatever.
Speaker 2:It doesn't mean that he's been an asshole about it, right, and not leaving her alone.
Speaker 1:And then again that doesn't mean he's a murderer, right, anywho. Yeah, so that was the the gist of Young's testimony. It wasn't really all that exciting, not that it should be, i'm just saying there was really nothing that I felt was substantial enough to cover, actually covered more than I thought we would. So there's that A lot of the testimony between young and the friends were forensic stuff, where they were just noting the chain of command for the evidence and stuff like that, making sure the evidence was handled correctly. I think the first witness that is really significant, if you will, would be Miss Shaw, who is the French teacher that Hay was an assistant to, the one that took her to that Monet exhibit where she got the journal that actually became her diary, and she's important only in that. You know she was witness to a lot of their relationship and Hay talked to her and whatnot. What I will say is about, i would say, the first 15 or so pages of the.
Speaker 1:The transcripts are pretty much of the lawyers fighting and the court mediating, mainly because Christina, the defense attorney, doesn't want this witness anywhere near the stand. So she is fighting tooth and nail And I think the main reason is because for some reason. The cops thought it would be a really good idea to kind of use her. I don't even know how to explain it. They basically knew that she was friendly with the students, so they decided it would be a really good idea if they used her to use her relationship with the students to try and gather information, to try and figure out you know where Hay might be, where she may have gone. But I think she kind of had her own idea or agenda, because it seemed as though most of the questions revolved around where did Hay and Adnan have sex? Where did they like to go?
Speaker 2:And she would know this information.
Speaker 1:No, she was asking his friends because she had a relationship with his friends, because she was the cool young teacher She was, like you know, mid 20s So they were all friendly with her. She was friendly with them. Hay had a good relationship with her. They all knew that. They were all you know yip-yap. So the cops basically used her as like their little guinea pig No, like their little detective who's not a detective And any information that she obtained really isn't admissible because it's not like she's a cop. There's not anything that they can use. So not only that, but it was before Adnan was a suspect, it was before anything. And here she is trying to find out about Hay and Adnan's sex life. Like, what are you even doing?
Speaker 2:Like it was just, it was just odd, really just odd, but do you think that the detectives had any other person in mind as a suspect?
Speaker 1:I mean at that time I'm sure that that Adnan was on their list. It's not to say that they didn't have him on their list, it's just that you know for her as a teacher you know Adnan was still going to school Like.
Speaker 2:Well, i understand what you're saying. It was really inappropriate. Yeah, she probably should have lost her credential because of that, but my thinking is again I and we talked about it earlier I don't think that they had anybody else as a suspect. I think it was truly just Adnan.
Speaker 1:Well, and that may very well be, but all I'm saying is is that you know, as a teacher, you know you want to have your students back, and I get well, i get that he wasn't really her student Hay was, but he's a student of that school and thereby a student of hers by proxy, if you will And I feel like she was really shady, yeah, and that information isn't. I mean, why would it be relevant where they had sex And why are you asking? I mean, that's just ew, right. And then she's using the fact that when, when Adnan found out that that she was asking these questions, he was fucking pissed. I'm sorry, wouldn't you be? I would be, yeah, i would be angry that not only is this teacher asking questions about where me and my ex-girlfriend, who's now missing, had sex, but the questions really sound like you think I did something.
Speaker 2:Well, and it's not her place at all, period It's not, it's not.
Speaker 1:So anyway, that was a very long and drawn out argument, like 20 pages worth before they got anywhere. And when the questioning finally does start, i mean even that starts getting a little weird, because then the prosecutor asks her about her personal dating history because he wants to know if she understands or has experience in cross-cultural dating, and so she lets him know that her last four boyfriends were Jewish and she's Roman Catholic Again, totally irrelevant. So I mean, unless I can see, i can see that maybe they were going to use that as a reason for why Hey would have gone to her for advice.
Speaker 2:Okay, but again, that's none of a student's business who the teacher is dating And honestly, that's religious backgrounds And I get you bring culture into that. But no, this is a whole separate. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:It just doesn't. It doesn't, it doesn't work.
Speaker 2:No, no, no no.
Speaker 1:It's okay because Christina actually objected and asked for the testimony and questions to be struck. It was thankfully, because what are you doing? Like? at least she did that right, yeah, so then pursued more fighting for another few pages And then we get into the homecoming and spoiler alert. There's more fighting between attorneys here, just letting you know. I feel like I read more fighting than I did testimony and more than likely that is the case, and the fighting is because Ms Shab was trying to testify to information that she didn't have firsthand knowledge of, which is obviously hearsay. So she was at being asked questions about things that happen at the homecoming dance.
Speaker 1:Just to recap, the homecoming dance was when Adnan's parents had come And I guess I believe my recollection is is that Adnan stupidly brought Hay over to his parents for an introduction and Adnan's mom went crazy and was yelling at Hay. The teacher stepped in. It was a whole thing. They took Adnan home and then he said screw all, you got on his bike, wrote it back to the school to be with Hay because he felt bad. Blah, blah, blah. So that was the quote. Unquote incident.
Speaker 2:Totally getting off topic, but shocking. I'm just curious Maybe we discussed it so many episodes ago And how did they find out that Adnan and Hay were together at homecoming?
Speaker 1:That would be the spiritual advisor.
Speaker 2:Bilal Oh right, Okay, And he didn't have. I mean, he had all the power in the world to tell them where their son was, but he couldn't stop them from causing quite a scene at the school. No, no, no, okay, Just just curious.
Speaker 1:Maybe tell them after the fact, so that there was no scene.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, it's just kind of like Why would they do that, as even adults? I don't care what their belief system is, hey look, i had a crazy mom so I can't.
Speaker 1:Look, she did some things that I'm like what the hell was going through your head, i mean. So I mean they can't just wait up and and it included making a scene in public.
Speaker 2:So I okay, Okay, It just, it's just okay go ahead, go ahead.
Speaker 1:Anywho, so. So because she wasn't actually at the homecoming dance to witness the actual incident, she couldn't testify to the actual incident itself. However, what she can testify to is, that is that Hay ended up coming to her the next day or I believe it was the next day and confided in her about the incident itself. So she basically talked to her about interfaith relationships and kind of just, i guess, asked her opinion on it and do they last and just relationship-y type questions? that got objected to and overruled. So they continued And I guess she said that she was asking for her counsel. If you will Again, this is a young teacher, i mean I get okay. So her last four boyfriends were Jewish.
Speaker 1:So okay, what does that go back to? like high school or something, cause like she was pretty young, i want to say like 25 maybe. So I don't know. I mean I don't know how much counsel this girl's gonna get, but Anywho, she wanted to know. You know how important faith was. You know, was faith more important than love, that kind of thing? And I guess, because it had, the homecoming thing had just happened Adnan had showed up looking for Hay And Hay went into another room, called the teacher and said I don't want to see Adnan, i don't want him to know that I'm around. Can you please, just you know, tell him I'm not here And for whatever reason. I guess the teacher kind of took that as you know, he must be abusive or he must. I don't know why she took that in such a an aggressive manner, i mean, well again.
Speaker 2:I mean, we can look at it in different ways. How was it being presented in court from the teacher saying right was Hay hysterical and scared and showing that she was truly frightened? Was that stated?
Speaker 1:I mean it didn't She? you know, like when I'm going through the transcripts it was, you know she told she told the teacher about the incident And there was a dispute between the parents and Adnan and herself at the homecoming dance After that after that weekend they had it just said they had both come back I'm assuming, coming back to school, and she said that there was a problem in the relationship due to their interfaith. And then she corrected to their interfaith relationship. I guess is what she said, and the fact that there were.
Speaker 2:There are different religions And so I mean as somebody who's worked with students and who's got teenage kids, i would look at it as the girl was probably just overwhelmed, overthinking and needed some space and not to have to bring up anything with that person at that moment, because she was having a conversation that to me seemed very mature, especially talking about you know, does faith come above love or like?
Speaker 1:how do?
Speaker 2:you decipher the two, which one's more important?
Speaker 1:I mean that's huge thing to ask at age. I agree, and I think that, like you're saying, she was probably very overwhelmed. We already know that she was questioning their relationship to begin with because she didn't like the fact that they had to hide it. She wanted to be out in the open, she wanted to be able to go to his house. She wanted him to be able to come to her house. It was a thing that really bothered her.
Speaker 2:And clearly her writings in her journal never stated that he laid a hand on her, not being that an abusive relationship is just physical. But there really wasn't any indication of mental abuse. Verbal abuse, right. Yeah, people get in fights, but that doesn't mean that it's abusive, right exactly So anyway.
Speaker 1:so Hey had called her from wherever. she was basically saying you know, i don't want to see him right now, and I think that that's personally, i think it's totally valid. I think it's also totally valid that after a weekend like that, he'd want to see her. I think both are very valid. I think so too.
Speaker 2:So that's just you know my opinion, especially if she wasn't returning his pages on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i mean, i'm sure he's wondering where the heck he stood Right, So anyway. So she's just kind of recalling that now. I mean, I'm not saying that she, I'm not saying that she portrays it as him being a problem or that, you know, Hay's reaction was that of somebody who had been abused as being abused or anything like that. I just I don't see the relevance of this story, unless that's what they're trying to paint.
Speaker 2:That's what I think they're trying to paint, yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, there's really no other reason why you would do a story like this And clearly the teacher is team prosecutor. Well, yes.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's very evident.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I don't know how to really feel about that either. Not that she should not have her opinion, but I don't think there was enough evidence to have the teacher come to the decision that he was abusive, right.
Speaker 1:So after that they do go into. You know how she aided the investigation. She talked about that. She was contacted by the detective and he would ask, you know, certain teachers, because now she makes it seem like there was more than one, which I find interesting because I'm pretty sure she was the only one that I'm aware of, unless I'm missing something. So, oh, i see. This is why I'm sorry. it was my mistake, i did read it incorrectly. So the detective had asked her to ask certain teachers because they weren't cooperating to their fullest extent, if Adnan was in class on a certain day and if he was at track, and so forth. So it sounds to me like maybe the teachers were not being as forthcoming as you know the investigators would have liked. You know, like not necessarily lying, but you know everybody's entitled to some sense of privacy and unless you have a warrant, Exactly.
Speaker 1:You need to go somewhere else, exactly. So you are more than welcome to any information that I have, as soon as you show me that you have a warrant for that information.
Speaker 2:Right, or the teacher is willing to talk, or any witness or whatever is willing to open their mouth and talk.
Speaker 1:Right, but I think as a teacher, you have a duty to your students. I don't think that it's something where you could be like, yeah, here, diarrhea of the mouth. I don't think that that I mean, and I could be totally wrong, but as a teacher, you have a duty to your students. Yes, of course, every citizen has a duty to be, you know, helpful to law enforcement and investigators and stuff like that. But when it comes to privacy and things like that, everybody's entitled to that. So unless you have a warrant and you are telling me I need to provide you this information, i'm not providing you shit.
Speaker 2:Right if you're saying you need me to provide this information.
Speaker 1:They're asking if he was or wasn't in school on a certain day. To me, you're asking for school records.
Speaker 2:Absolutely I agree with you. So no, thank you, 100%, 100% So because they weren't being forthcoming.
Speaker 1:They asked her to aid in that and go to those teachers to ask them those teachers for the investigator.
Speaker 2:So was she disciplined for any of this?
Speaker 1:Not that I'm aware of. Wow, you know, i haven't. You know, it's one of those things where she was like from A to Z. She was about Z on my list of things to look up Right, right, right. So it would be interesting to find out, because to me that's a huge conflict.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Not just for your student, but to those teachers. You are being, I mean, completely deceitful, first of all. And if you got any information from them, how is that even admissible in any fashion?
Speaker 2:Well, let me turn this around just a tiny bit. I know with having to report to CPS. We're supposed to know if it's involved in a school setting. We're supposed to know that student's address their date of birth, their demographics, like all this information that I'm not, you're not privy to, unless you're either administrator or a teacher. Yeah, so to go and ask teachers oh can I please have this information so that I can report your student to social services? What?
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly. So instead, what she did was she went to these teachers like, hey, do you have any? was it not even here? Like more or less making it seem like just for, like you know, hey, teacher to teacher, let's have a conversation Like can you believe what's going on? I can't believe. la, la, la la.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they had a snitch Yeah that's basically what she was.
Speaker 1:Yeah, So I mean it. Just why does that hurt me so much? It just does. I didn't mean to spend this much time on her, but yeah, she's one of those people, She's one of those Mm-hmm. So in case anybody was wondering why there was so much fighting about her, that's why I absolutely get it now.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So then the prosecution goes into Adnan confronting her, because you know she basically it wasn't just that she approached these girls and asked them or what have you. She wrote down like four or five questions. It's funny that she only recalls one of them, which was is there a special place that Adnan and hey like to go? That's the only question she recalls, but I digress, They were also.
Speaker 1:one of them was also asking is there a place that they could go? Is there a place that they have sex? But anyway. so at one point Adnan approached her in her classroom and asked her if she was talking to other teachers about him and asking questions, and her response was well, yeah, because we're all being asked questions, which really wasn't his question, but I think he took that as yes, i am kind of thing because her or his response after is I wish you wouldn't, because my parents don't know what happens in my life. So you know, obviously there's a fear that you know word is gonna get around back to his family that he's dating hey because, or he was dating hey because the questions that were being asked of her friends were not explicit, but they were extremely private, very private, and she has no business, and it just it's funny because she doesn't mention that.
Speaker 1:Adnan asks her whether or not she's asking any of Hay's friends, because she definitely was and she testified to the fact that she was. So it's whatever, she went way over the line, it's, i don't know. She reps me the wrong way, but whatever. So that was pretty much her testimony. Cross-examine was very specific. She, christina, just you know, verified once again that she was Roman Catholic and you know, kind of did the whole.
Speaker 1:And as a Roman Catholic, are you able to date other people who are outside of your religion or are you only allowed to date Roman Catholic men? She's like no, i can date anybody. And she's like, oh, you can, can you? So as a Roman Catholic, are you allowed to have sex with other men that are outside of your face? She's like no, i'm not allowed to have sex unless I'm married. Oh, okay, i mean, just she was very snarky about it And I think her point was is that?
Speaker 1:why was he going to you for intercultural relations when you don't understand what being a Muslim is like? Your religion is nowhere near being a Muslim, so you have no way of guiding her in any way, shape or form. That was pretty much what she was. She was being snarky, right. That was. That was her cross-examination, and then she said no further questions And Ms Shah was done. So you see why I skipped some of these Cause really. I mean, it was just more or less just kind of fun with the other parts. Now I'm going to get to the, to the friends, but I really want to get to Jay, because you know we're 50 minutes in and this is happening.
Speaker 1:So just buckle up, buttercup cause we're doing this There is no more cutting me off in an hour.
Speaker 2:Oh, i won't, I won't, i won't, i won't. Okay, i won't. Thank you, i promise, but I won't.
Speaker 1:We're not cutting it off, anyway. So Jay's tested money. You know, as always, it has to start out with a little bit of drama, because you know he has to be told. He's not allowed to bring anything up about the previous case because you know they have to do this trial I shouldn't say case the previous trial, they have to do this trial, as if the other trial didn't happen. Blah, blah, blah. So they have that discussion before Jay walks in.
Speaker 1:Now, while Jay walks in and I think we brought this up before as he's passing Adnan's chair table, what have you? Adnan calls them pathetic. Now, a lot of people read into that, like way more than I think people should be reading into that, cause you know they go into the whole cultural thing and yada, yada, yada. And well, you know, in his culture you know somebody who flips on you. You see them as pathetic and beneath you and this, that and the other. So you know, obviously that proves he's guilty, because he's calling Jay pathetic because Jay flipped on him And I'm just like, okay, or he's pathetic because he's a fucking liar.
Speaker 1:I mean what? I mean he's a teenager, you know. Yes, he was brought up in that culture, but he was also brought up in the United States. He was born and raised in the United States and he went to school in a regular school setting. So, you know, a lot of people don't really take into consideration that while he was, you know, yes, his faith was a big part of his life, so were his friends and so was school, you know. And so he had a lot of, you know, isms and you know a lot of his personality and a lot of his stuff was also made up of what he's learned being in public school, and I mean imagine the tug-of-war that he has with himself on a daily basis.
Speaker 2:True, because he's going, he's having to have a second life that nobody knows about his family at least.
Speaker 1:Well, yes, i mean there is that. You know the fun dating. You know that part of him. But you know, even still, there's that part of him that is still a teenage American boy, right, his parents are aware that he's a teenage American boy. It's why they had Bilal Cannot with him, but anyway, so you know, he does he? well, nobody, except for the bailiff or the sheriff, whatever she. She calls him the sheriff, assuming it's the bailiff. Here's Adnan say it. It's just the one person.
Speaker 1:Christina doesn't say whether or not she heard it or not. So so it's interesting. I wrote down what she said. She said okay, first things first. I was just informed by my sheriff that the defendant made a comment to the witness as the witness approached the stand, indicating he was pathetic. I want to advise Mr Syed in your presence that, oh, i want to advise Mr Syed in your presence that up until now he has been perfect. I'm going to advise you now don't spoil it. Whatever self-control you need to exhibit, continue to do it to the end of the trial. You are presenting yourself in a manner that is appropriate in this courtroom and you don't want to have, you don't want me to have to say anything to you, do you understand? And of course he says yes, but right after that the court advises the defense counsel that she's not saying that Adnan did or didn't say it because she didn't hear anything, that it was the sheriff that heard it and is the one that reported it to her.
Speaker 1:Rick and Tatl tail And she's saying it in front of, obviously, the state, the prosecutors, because she wants everybody to know that no witness is going to feel intimidated to testify or anything else. Yada, yada, yada, and that went for either side. So she was doing the whole. You know, I want everybody to feel safe. I mean, yes, I felt very threatened because somebody called me pathetic.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean just the whole song and dance that people seem to do about safety and I mean I get it. You know, it was a very, it was a tough time, you know the 90s and 2000s were very difficult, but let's not forget that this was before 9-11. It was, but it was not during a hard time. You still had the bombing in 93.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I mean I get it, but I think it really came to a head after 9-11. Of course, it did, and every generation was very much made aware of who the potential suspects were in 9-11.
Speaker 1:I agree. My only point is is that it doesn't mean that there weren't biases in the 90s and 2000s.
Speaker 2:What I find interesting, though, is that there's a whole community of Muslims in Baltimore, a whole community.
Speaker 1:There's more than one.
Speaker 2:So it right. But it seems like when you find out like oh you know, this town is predominantly Korean, or this town is predominantly Chinese, or you know what I mean, what I'm saying. I don't think that I would have looked at Baltimore as a big community with Muslims, and apparently it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, And in this particular area, my understanding is that there's a few different communities and mosques. I could be wrong, but that was my understanding, which is great. But you know, the further east you go, not south but east you go the more diversity you will find. I mean, i know that going to the East Coast was literally my favorite thing to do because it was just just everything was just so I don't know diverse and it just it was beautiful and great and everybody loved everybody. That sounded weird. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Where did you go on the East Coast? Okay, i've been there and I didn't feel the love like that. You know what?
Speaker 1:Nobody, nobody ever really says that. My first time going to New York I literally felt like I had come home, like everybody was the nicest like I'd ever met in like in any state. Everybody was like welcoming and they're not like the New Yorkers that everybody always talks about, literally the nicest people in the world.
Speaker 2:Well, i mean, when my husband and I moved to Pennsylvania, when we were first married, his biggest fear was that I wasn't going to be welcomed, because it's a very German community and he's like they're just not going to be nice to you. He grew up there, right. I felt extremely welcomed, that's what I'm saying. But when we moved to North Carolina, i did not.
Speaker 1:See, I don't know why I don't consider North Carolina East. I consider that like South East.
Speaker 2:Well, it is, it is more South.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what we're going to do.
Speaker 2:You know that there's a melting pot of different states that come and they move their transports, whatever you want to call them, But I just felt very much like an outsider.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i wouldn't consider North Carolina like New York or any of the East, i mean like Massachusetts. I felt the same way. Everybody was like super nice and welcoming and warm and I loved it. I mean it was great. New Jersey, i mean all of those states.
Speaker 2:Just so nice Well you go on with your bad self. I'm going to stay right here in California.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't really have much of a choice.
Speaker 2:No, okay, let's go back.
Speaker 1:Anyway, let's go live in Baltimore for a little bit longer here.
Speaker 2:Okay, okay, can we be done before winter, because I really don't want to spend a winter there. We're trying, we're trying.
Speaker 1:Well, stop taking us off the road. Anyway, hardly, hardly, a few times In the other episodes. Anyway, go whatever.
Speaker 1:Anywho, so anyway. So yeah, moving on to his direct examination, which actually it actually got started quicker than one would think, believe it or not, you know, the beginning was its usual Who are you, where do you live, where'd you go to school? Blah, blah, blah. Now what I did find interesting and maybe I missed it, you know, i could be wrong, because there's so much information is that I don't remember him mentioning hanging out with Adnan, other than saying that he had gone to a dance once with Adnan and Stephanie and they smoked weed. I think he said one or two times or something. Oh no, i take that back. It was he hung out a few times with Adnan in the past. It was he went to a dance with Stephanie and Adnan And then he took Jay, took Adnan to get weed And that was it. That was the extent.
Speaker 2:I find it really hard to believe that he had really only kind of like spent maybe one or two times with the guy, but he lends him his car and his cell phone. No, it gets better. So and he tells somebody yeah, I'm done with her. Oh, you want to look at what I did in the back of the car, Right?
Speaker 1:Except that that's all I remember before. But in these transcripts he then says that in Adnan senior year so apparently he had stated that in Adnan senior year obviously the 1998 part, because it was November and December he had started getting rides from Adnan And you know I guess they hung out with him and Stephanie and Jay hung out a few times. But what I find interesting is he says that Adnan would give him rides to quote, unquote places, but he was never specific on where these places were. I can't remember who it was or where I read it or what have you, because there's just way too much information.
Speaker 1:But I remember somebody saying that Jay was cheating on Stephanie and he would borrow cars from his friends from Stephanie even you know different people, because he didn't have one. And when he borrowed the cars, that's when he was going and meeting with women or a woman, i'm not sure which, and cheating on Stephanie. In fact, i even think that at one point there was an argument between Hay and Adnan, because Hay was upset that Adnan knew that Jay was cheating and using his car for it and Stephanie, being his best friend, felt that he should be saying something to Stephanie and she was angry at him for not saying anything to Stephanie.
Speaker 2:Well, it's like that same bros before hoes.
Speaker 1:Right, but except that Stephanie is more his best friend than Jay.
Speaker 2:He wasn't borrowing. Let's clear this up. He wasn't borrowing. He was using people to use their cars to go benefit himself.
Speaker 1:Correct. That means that for Jay to have borrowed Adnan's car on January 13th was not out of the blue or abnormal, so it's something that had occurred a few times in November and December already.
Speaker 2:But I mean, okay, let me ask you this If you're I don't even want to say associate like somebody you associate with, i would think, like maybe somebody you knew here and there, randomly, because that's how Jay made their friendship seem, would you just let some?
Speaker 1:person that-.
Speaker 2:Brando, yeah, borrow your car and use your cell phone and whatever.
Speaker 1:Me personally, probably not. I don't know how Adnan viewed Jay. It was his best friend's boyfriend, so maybe he was okay. Maybe he who knows if in the beginning he was aware that Jay was using his car to see women, so maybe he thought that he was doing Stephanie a favor, or what have you by-?
Speaker 2:I don't know, i have a really hard time believing that, regardless of the sex of the person, if your best friend's with a girl or a guy or guy, whatever that if you knew that that person that you were seeing was cheating on you and you're like, hey, let me borrow your car so I can go hook up with so-and-so And that's your best friend, wouldn't you kind of think that there's a loyalty to and hey has every right to be upset Totally? It seemed like a whole circle of people knew that this was going on.
Speaker 1:It seemed that way, yeah, and none of Stephanie's friends told her.
Speaker 1:Right. So again, i don't know the circumstances that surround how Adnan found out. For all I know, he found out because hey told him and she's like dude, you need to go tell her. And he's like well, how do I know for sure? You're just coming to me. You know what I'm saying. Why am I going to go and break up her and her boyfriend? She's my best friend. She really likes this dude. They've been together for a really long time and you want me to go and break them up and I don't even know what's going on. Could be, it could be.
Speaker 2:And again, that could just be hearsay. I mean again, Was it admissible in court? No, it's hearsay, of course it's hearsay.
Speaker 1:But court of public opinion is different than actual court, so I'm just bringing it up because I find it interesting that he does talk about using Adnan's car. Well, he said Adnan would give him rides.
Speaker 2:To quote unquote places I think that would be more for buying drugs.
Speaker 1:It could be, but he does also say that he purchases marijuana for him twice, and he doesn't include that in the taking him places because he doesn't shy away from saying it. So why wouldn't he just say he took him to go buy weed, either?
Speaker 2:that or he was selling it at the time when he was driving in places.
Speaker 1:I mean it could be Who knows This guy is such a low life anyway I know, but he kind of he describes his marijuana selling as purchasing it for friends and some other people, sometimes in large quantities, and dispersing it and only doing that two to three times a week. That was, that was his grand drug empire. Wow, yeah, all right, any who we're going to start getting into my warning at the beginning of this podcast.
Speaker 2:Oh no.
Speaker 1:Well, look, I warned.
Speaker 2:Which part The confusing? Well this is what makes my brain.
Speaker 1:It's not inappropriate.
Speaker 2:Okay, fine, he just makes my brain tired I understand, i understand.
Speaker 1:So we're going to start getting into the phone calls again. You know it's another one of those things where you know Jay is testifying. I'm going to breeze through this beginning part. It's not as bad, it's just stupid. You know he talks about stupid. I understand He talks about the first phone call that he receives from Adnan, which is on January 12th, which is Jay's birthday. It was around 10 o'clock. It was a quick phone call. He, adnan, just asked what he was.
Speaker 2:How quick.
Speaker 1:Does it say How many seconds? Um, if it did, i didn't write it down because I guess I didn't find it relevant, but apparently I found. I found the second one relevant.
Speaker 2:So please hold.
Speaker 1:Um. So it was on Jay's birthday and Adnan asked him what he was up to And if he was doing anything the next day, and Jay said he answered no And that was the end of the conversation. Nice phone call, huh. He didn't even say whether or not Adnan wished him a happy birthday.
Speaker 2:It's like this Hey, jay. Oh, what are you up to? What are you up to tomorrow? Yeah?
Speaker 1:Nothing.
Speaker 2:Nothing Click.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there was no bye, no happy birthday, no nothing.
Speaker 2:I think he said We don't even know, we don't even know Like Adnan addressed him. It was like Hey, jay, how's it going? That's true too. I think it's just been. we do know. Obviously, these are my summarized notes.
Speaker 1:So I think he said something about that. He told him he was tired because he had a long day and blah, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2:He was busy working.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, it was his birthday, he was partying, he was probably high, who knows, right.
Speaker 2:Anyway, anyway, really, if he's high, do you think the conversation lasted that long?
Speaker 1:I don't even know, because he probably was longer.
Speaker 2:It's like Yo hey, what's up.
Speaker 1:What you been doing. I don't know, Just you know.
Speaker 2:Okay, go ahead.
Speaker 1:Now they're both high. That's interesting. No, i was speaking, jay. Oh, i see. Okay, the next call was at 1030 on January 13th, which is the next day.
Speaker 2:And that's Stephanie's birthday.
Speaker 1:That was Stephanie's birthday, yep, and the. It's so funny because the prosecutor's like so, and can you tell me the next time he called or whatever. And he's like yeah, it was 1030 and Glad he knows that January 13th Yeah, it's funny Which supposedly correlates to the phone records, right? So then the prosecutor's like well, here can you look at the phone records and take a look at lines so and so, and let me know what you see. And I don't know why I made the prosecutor sound like that, but I did.
Speaker 2:It sounds like the person. Okay, go ahead.
Speaker 1:So then Jay had to correct himself.
Speaker 2:Again.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, Because it was at 1045. Oh 1045. And it lasted 28 seconds.
Speaker 2:Wow, okay. So how did this?
Speaker 1:conversation go In that 28 seconds. Adnan asked him what his plans were for the day, what he was doing and that Adnan could pick him up in an hour.
Speaker 2:Okay. So when like hey, jay, how's it going? What are your plans for today? It's okay, sounds great, So I can pick you up in an hour, I mean but Okay, okay, okay, where are Jay's answers?
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Hey, jay, what you doing? Oh, not much. What's the house going? Not, nothing. What are you doing today? Nothing. What are you doing? Not? I can pick you up in an hour. Sounds good, okay, bye, bye. I mean that could be 28 seconds We should time it, but I'm not gonna go through this again. Yeah, I have not either.
Speaker 1:My I put like bold underlined. I said which presuming Jay answered him would take longer than 28 seconds.
Speaker 2:That's what I put in my little bowl For real, like I think the hamster. he'd have to like kick the hamster in the butt to get moving on the wheel. Seriously Stoner.
Speaker 1:So I? these are all my notes. Adnan has supposedly offered to give Jay or I to the mall to get a gift for Stephanie's birthday. Like bye.
Speaker 2:So that is very much detailed information versus what are you doing today? Nothing. What are you doing?
Speaker 1:So okay, so this part we're gonna take a little aside for a second. So it actually coincides a little bit with Adnan's story, okay. So now I'm not so sure about the times and stuff like that, because it's been like a decade since I listened to Serial, but according to Adnan, you know, stephanie was an important person in his life. She was his best friend, it was her birthday, you know, according to Adnan, he wanted to make sure that Jay had a birthday present for Stephanie. Now, of course, jay denies all of this.
Speaker 2:Because he doesn't wanna look like an idiot, right, jay?
Speaker 1:is like. I don't even know what the hell he's talking about, because you know, of course I was gonna have a birthday present She's my girlfriend blah blah blah But according to Adnan, with his $5. Right, according to Adnan, he wanted Stephanie to be happy on her birthday. What have you?
Speaker 2:Cause Jay's been cheating on her, but that, yeah, that's irrelevant.
Speaker 1:Okay, anyway.
Speaker 2:You can see how much I like this guy Totally.
Speaker 1:So what Adnan had said was is that the reason why he contacted Jay and the reason why he offered to take him to the mall to get a present for Stephanie is because he wanted to make sure that he had a nice gift to give her?
Speaker 2:Okay, That to me sounds very much like Adnan.
Speaker 1:And his and his character.
Speaker 2:It does to me too, The other part that he's described as yo I'm done, i'm just gonna kill her.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Does not sound like Adnan.
Speaker 1:And for anybody who hasn't listened to him speak, you know there are times where you know his voice gets a little not irritated, but kind of more like what the fuck is going on? You know like like I'm sitting here and I'm listening to this and I'm like what are they talking? You know that kind of thing Right. But for the most part when you hear him talk he genuinely you know he has compassion and just empathy for everybody who lives around his circle of life. You know that's just how he is.
Speaker 2:But it also proves with how many people that he knew in high school who supported him And still do Right. So that says a lot.
Speaker 1:I agree, because all of his friends nevermind the teachers, but all of his friends at school to this day still believe that he's innocent. And those friends were also friends of Hayes. They had mutual friends, it wasn't like they were just his friends And you know, these are mutual friends of theirs.
Speaker 2:So let me ask you this, since Jay was seeing Stephanie, two questions actually cause. One just popped into my head Did anybody ever ask during court what their relationship was with Jay, how he was as a friend?
Speaker 1:anything. As far as my recollection goes, they never focused on Jay's character, because the trial isn't about Jay And while you know it is the defense's job to kind of shift the focus from Adnan to other people, you can't really get into too much character debate. You can ask specific questions like you know where was he, what was he doing? that kind of thing, which.
Speaker 2:I understand that the case isn't about Jay, but it's their star witness, who has told countless stories and can never get his timeframe correctly, has basically stated that Adnan is the reason why Hay is dead. But I would really like to know what that circle of friends think of Jay, and is he trustworthy? is he somebody that you can depend on? is he you know to?
Speaker 1:get clear answers. We know for sure that Stephanie's mom certainly didn't, she definitely did not want Stephanie with him. So we know that much, right.
Speaker 2:But it's also, you know it's kind of funny just looking at like different shows that I've watched recently and it's like does Adnan seem like somebody who could commit murder? No, does Jay seem like somebody who could commit murder? Well, if you look at a track record here, no.
Speaker 1:I get it, i mean it. Just, you know, i don't know. There's just. Here's what I guess.
Speaker 1:My only issue with the Jay thing is that he's dumber than a box of rocks, right, but somehow he committed this murder that nobody can solve. That's my other issue. You know he is my number one right now and I get that. But it's like either he is or he isn't Like. Either he is dumber than a box of rocks or he's like super smart and got away with murder. Like I don't.
Speaker 1:I can't reconcile both of them. You know what I mean, and as far as I know, i mean I don't know how many people knew of his infidelity. If you will, i do remember that. The reason why I remembered the whole you know him cheating is because I've read the transcripts and it's brought up in cross-examination. So sorry, spoil alert, but anyway, you know, obviously it came out somehow. So people knew and because of that there has to be a part of them that have issues with him in that respect. But it didn't stop anybody, you know It didn't stop anybody from saying anything to Stephanie. And if Stephanie knew, it didn't stop her from dating him for whatever reason. What I've read she was in love with him, wanted to be with him, and nothing was gonna stop her from that. How long?
Speaker 2:did they date after the crime was committed and they found out who did it?
Speaker 1:My understanding is that they broke up, I believe a month or so before the trial. It is noted that she showed up to sentencing and left with Jay, but they were not together. Apparently she dumped him. I guess she wised up, who knows.
Speaker 1:Maybe during cross-examination Hmm my thing is that you've known for at least you know almost a year that your boyfriend had something to do with your friend or your best friend's girlfriend's death to some extent, whether it was killing her or burying her, and you're gonna stay with him Right, Or like most of that year. I mean, that's worse than Jay staying in the car with Audnan after he supposedly murdered Hay. Yeah, Like what's happening with these people. The decisions that these people make are just wacky tacky.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and they come from families where education is so important and-.
Speaker 1:Stephanie, supposedly, besides being a star athlete, is extremely smart.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm, so Maybe not street smart?
Speaker 1:Um apparently.
Speaker 2:Apparently Okay, moving on So moving on.
Speaker 1:So anyway, we have that 28 second phone call and an hour later Audnan picks them up. They go to the mall, they shop. apparently nothing is found, because after shopping Audnan is like yo, i need to go back to school. So if you wanna borrow my car to continue shopping, buy all means. and also here's my phone so you can call me on what phone I don't know. Oh, maybe I'm sorry It was so Audnan can call him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that makes more sense When he needed to be picked up. Right Right, right, right okay.
Speaker 1:Uh, jay's like cool man, thanks, and he leaves. I'm sorry. He drops Audnan off at school. He leaves and the prosecutor says so what if anything? That always makes me giggle. What, if anything, did Audnan tell you? So then Jay backs it up to when they're driving to the mall and it still bothers me that Jay didn't say anything And then when we're on our way to the mall. But no, he doesn't say anything until the attorney asks him what, if anything, did Audnan say to you? And apparently on this drive over to the mall. Mind you, these are people who have 28 second conversations, so now we're gonna get into a deep conversation about-, but they weren't close at all.
Speaker 1:No deep conversation about relationships and love and Jay's sharing with Audnan about how his relationship is with Stephanie and where they were at, and Audnan was sharing his feelings and what was going on with hey and la, la, la I mean real deep stuff going on here. And at that point apparently Audnan said things weren't going good And Jay says something to the extent of, but he didn't seem angry or anything. There was nothing that came out that made me think he was angry. And the prosecutor was like okay, and was anything else said? And he was like yeah, and so then he just he gets real mad. I'm like sitting here like I thought he just said he wasn't getting angry, but apparently that changed right now. I mean like right now, and now he's mad and he just said I'm gonna kill that bitch. But Jay kind of interjects and said he never really said that he was talking about hey, but I just assumed that's who he was talking about because that's the context of the conversation. He's real smart now.
Speaker 2:He's very insightful.
Speaker 1:He is.
Speaker 2:Intuitive, all of it.
Speaker 1:Right, because. And then I guess he then continues with what Audnan said And he says how could she treat me like this for somebody that she supposedly loved? Yeah, so that's how that went, but then it was like whatevs. They went to the mall.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And went shopping for Stephanie's gift.
Speaker 2:Uh-huh.
Speaker 1:It was cool, everything was fine.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then yeah, so Well.
Speaker 2:I mean, i think in a situation like that, if it was me and my kind of not really friend, but kind of friend like I'm dating, like this person's like best friend, right, and I said that about or they said that about the person they were dating, i'd have a lot of questions, right, i would have a few. Not only that, I'd probably be calling that person I was dating who was the best friend. I'd be like what is he? what did they mean?
Speaker 1:by this Right Like is he serious? Should we let? hey, no, should we?
Speaker 2:Right. Should I call the police? Is this a cause for concern?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean hello, yeah, so anyway, then I guess after he, i guess he reiterates again to Jay that he was going to kill that bitch.
Speaker 2:Second time, so that's a little important.
Speaker 1:Right. And then he said, oh, I'm sorry. And then Adnan continued talking about people and interactions and love, et cetera. What the hell does that mean?
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:I don't even know what that means, i just know that that's what I wrote down.
Speaker 2:It's like talking to a therapist or something. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's literally what it says. Adnan continued talking about people, interactions and love, okay, anyway. So then he was asked what happened next and Jay basically said he took him to school and dropped him off, which I put in here as inconsistent with what he said when he said the conversation took place, because if it took place on the way to the mall, why didn't he say they went to the mall? But he didn't actually say that because literally the prosecutor said and what happened next, meaning after your conversation? and he said I dropped him off at school. So it's like either the prosecutor really, really confused Jay as to what he was talking about or, once again, jay got his quote, unquote facts wrong, because I put that in there specifically because I noticed that that's exactly the chronology.
Speaker 2:Do you think that Jay was being advised? Yeah, to like answers very little as possible.
Speaker 1:I think that he was coached, advised, whatever, to answer questions specifically, not so much little, but I think specifically so that they matched with the timeline, because I think that anything outside of that timeline doesn't help the case at all. Right, and I think what they are finding is that Jay is incapable, oh yep, of doing anything that helps them. Well, i mean, they did end up winning, but it's certainly a well, a mess, a mess. So at that point, jay leaves the school and he starts going towards Jen Pousatieri's house.
Speaker 2:And we did discuss this, we did, we did.
Speaker 1:According to Jay and I might bounce back and forth, because Jen's testimony isn't really that dense with information, except for certain areas, right? So, and this just happens to be one of them that have me a little bit confused. But what else is new? It's a confusing case.
Speaker 1:So, according to Jay, he left the school, started heading towards Jen's house, called Jen at 1207. She wasn't there, so he hung out with Mark, which is Jen's brother, and then he, i guess he said to Mark hey, you wanna run out somewhere? And they did. And then they called the house, jen's house again at 1241, to see if she was home and she wasn't. So they went back to Jen's house and played video games and then decided which is again weird Then they decided to go to the mall so Jay could finish his shopping. Where did they go before? To get more weed, must be. Then Adnan had called him to say that it was just before I guess they left to go to the mall to tell Jay that he wanted him to pick Adnan at 345. And he was like cool, and they went to the mall, him and Mark. So Here's where I have issues.
Speaker 2:I have a couple Okay.
Speaker 1:Well, why don't you start with yours?
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no. I think you should go.
Speaker 1:So I guess my issue is and it could just be a matter of the questioning not being specific enough to get a timeline in there, but what they do get in there as far as, like her daily activities and stuff, it seems kind of important to get that in there. So then it makes me wonder why they didn't get like exact timelines for her day, for instance. She's a lifeguard. At that time I should say She was a lifeguard And she they went through what she does every day. So every day she picks up her brother at one. Well, let's be real, they actually started in the morning. I get up at 6 am every day and blah, blah, blah. I mean literally. Yeah, so, but in the afternoon, after she gets off of work, she picks up her brother at one and then she leaves at about 4 or 4.30 to pick up her mom from work. I'm getting the idea, obviously, that they only have one car for the family, so she leaves between 4 and 4.30 to pick up her mom. The two of them then go and pick up her dad and then they get home somewhere around 6 o'clock. Now, for me I guess that's important because obviously at 12.07, she wasn't home and 12.41, she wasn't home. So the question was asked by the prosecutor did you get home at your normal time that day? She said no, because there was a problem with the pool and she had to wait around for the I guess, the pool technician due to come and fix whatever needed to be fixed so that the pool can open as normal the following day. So she got home late. So we know that much.
Speaker 1:Obviously she didn't pick up Mark at one o'clock, i think, because she doesn't mention that she picked him up. Jay mentions that he hung out with Mark, but what bothers me is that Jen doesn't mention Mark being there at all. So for me it just seems kind of strange. I don't know if it's any, you know, maybe there's nothing strange about it, but for me it just I don't know. It just bothers me because it goes from yeah, this is my day, i pick him up every day, and nothing about whether or not she picked him up that day. The other thing I think that bothers me about her testimony is that she talks about hanging out with Jay, Again not mentioning the time in which she hangs out with him, only that he calls. Let me back it up.
Speaker 1:So the question was asked is it uncommon for Jay to hang out with your brother? No, how old is your brother? 16. Okay, he was 15 at the time. Yes, and then drops it, moves on. Well, why are you going to ask those questions if you don't follow up with? did he hang out with your brother that day? That wasn't asked, it was just dropped. Is it uncommon? No, how old is he? Okay, and then moved on. That was it. So I think that's all that he asked about the brother, because then it was.
Speaker 1:You know, did you hear from Jay that day? Yes, you know, he called me and then he came over, we hung out and we played video games in my living room. Okay, well, i don't remember if I was this specific when I went over Jay's testimony, but he said that he and Mark were in the basement playing the same video games. Both were playstations, you know, and I don't know if you remember 1999 area, but having more than one console not usual, It wasn't very typical. So, unless their living room was in the basement, which one was it? Were they in the basement playing video games or in the living room playing video games? Was Mark there? Was he not there? You know, i mean these things to me are inconsistent or unclear enough that I have questions.
Speaker 2:Well, i kind of am questioning this timeline because he drops at non-off at school, right. Was that during his lunchtime?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, and then he's supposed to come pick him up at like what, 345?
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Okay, So he picks him up at 345, but then he has to go back to football practice at what time Between?
Speaker 1:oh yeah, i know he gets picked up between 430 and 5, so pretty right away.
Speaker 2:So it's like to me it doesn't one one. I don't recall many football players ever missing a good portion of their football practice. Well, he was in track.
Speaker 1:Oh, he was in track at this time. It was track.
Speaker 2:Okay, But still normally sports start right after school. Right after school. Yeah, so they don't give them time to go off campus. go do whatever they're going to do and come back, which is a kite.
Speaker 1:Correct, So I agree with you, which is why we're bouncing between the two time right, right.
Speaker 2:And then the other thing was is didn't at non go to Jen's house and like, not even like, say hi.
Speaker 1:That was later in the evening.
Speaker 2:That was later in the evening. Okay, right.
Speaker 1:So in her explanation as to what occurred, not giving a time, odd non call back at up, jay called and, you know, wanted to see if she was there. She was. he came in, they played video games and he then got a phone call. He left. but she specifically said that while he was there he didn't seem like himself. He was very like an easy, uncomfortable, not relaxed, like something was definitely wrong.
Speaker 1:So I'm sitting here and I'm like, well, what time was this? at What time are we talking about? Because I mean, if we're talking about I don't know, before three o'clock, what is he uncomfortable about? Nothing's happened, right? If it's after three o'clock, i mean, i, where are we? Because they're not being specific on time. Yeah Well, it's just, it's so confusing. So anyway, i'm bouncing between the two timelines because to me it just, it's just, it's just seems weird, to say the least, that yeah, it just I don't know. It just seems very odd to me that there's no real specifics on on her, like on her timeline. I really just that really just bothers me. So there's that The other thing is okay. so we decided to go ahead and take a pause in our recording just to kind of take a breath. take a look, and we do have at least a little bit more clarity-ish.
Speaker 1:So I mean, mind you, i mean I've been taking notes for a really long time, so there are bound to be some, you know, mistakes here and there. So one of the things for sure that I know, timeline-wise at least, it doesn't clear anything up, i mean per se, except that we actually have a time. So she does say that Jay gets a call between 3.30 and 3.45. So we do know that whatever time frame she's talking about is before Jay sees Hayes' body. So if it's before Jay sees Hayes' body and he's already acting weird, not himself, blah, blah, blah. I find it weird because I don't know. I mean, yeah, i get it.
Speaker 1:Okay, so supposedly Adnan had said that he was going to kill Hayes, but he also said that he didn't take it seriously And in his testimony at least, this go-around when Adnan goes back to school, it was so that Jay could go back to the mall and, contrary to his previous testimonies, it wasn't so that Adnan can kill Hayes. So you know, that was how he testified, or at least in his interviews. Oh, yeah, yeah, adnan was giving me his car and his cell phone specifically so that he can kill Hayes. That's what he said before, but that's not what he said this time. So, given all that, yeah, i mean, her testimony is just very different from Jay's. So just another area that I wanted to correct that we were able to find and look up what have you is that in her testimony, in Jen's testimony, it did say that they hung out in the living room and then went to play video games not that they played video games in the living room. So at least we know that the video games are indeed in the basement, even though she didn't say that.
Speaker 1:We are, you know, left with that conclusion, if you will, that they are two different locations, even though my initial thought was they were all in the same area. So at least we got that cleared up as well. Yay, okay. So from here we're going to go back to our friend Jay, because we're going to go over a little more of his timeline Now. I know that he wants me to go as slowly as I possibly can. So this lingers on and on, because Jay is literally her favorite character in this, but I'm going to see what I can do to maybe, you know I don't know if speed it along is the right term Good, Lord, but she's finally going to do this after eight episodes.
Speaker 1:Look, i mean, i'm just. I'm just trying to say that, you know, maybe we can try to do it in more of like a story form or something I don't know. I mean it's just a thought. I mean we don't have to. I don't have to.
Speaker 2:Once upon a time there was a dumb person named Jay who smoked a lot of weed.
Speaker 1:No, no, no like that. More like you know, just you know, they did this, they did that, they did this. That you know just to. You know just, maybe speed things along a little, i don't know.
Speaker 2:I think I speak for everyone when I say I think that's a fantastic idea, Do you Mm-hmm, oh, okay.
Speaker 1:Well, let me see what I can do about that, but in the next episode, because we are kissing two hours. We're at an hour and 40 minutes and I think that we are kind of at our limit here. So I will present my storyline version of Jay's testimony in the next episode, and I really hope that might be our last. I, you know, i really I have good feelings, me too, because Jay's obviously is going to be the longest. We'll do a little bit of each one of their friends. It's not very much, it's very just. You know, yeah, this happened, blah, blah, blah. Not a lot of information, because we already know what happened in their relationship. So really all we care about is that day, yeah, and they have very little to do with the entirety of the day, it's only a little bit at school, And then from there will be his appeals, what happened? and then, our favorite part, we're going to be little armchair investigator, wrapper uppers and give our opinions and our own little theories on what we think may have happened. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's changed. I mean, it changes every time. we address this, Every 10 minutes it seems like Yeah for sure.
Speaker 1:So we're going to pause here. Pause, stop, however you want to look at it, and we will continue in our hopefully final episode next week. All right, sounds good. Bye for now. Bye.