What's the truth behind Jay's testimony in the murder case of Hae Min Lee? Can the inconsistencies he shares hold the key to understanding this baffling crime? In this episode, we break down Jay's account of the red gloves, the call from Adnan, and other peculiar details that raise more questions than answers.
As we analyze the autopsy report, we uncover how it fails to provide clear evidence of a timeline of events. Furthermore, we delve into the significance of levidity and how it could impact this case. We also speculate on motives and connections, touching on the media's portrayal of Muslims and how it may have influenced the outcome of Adnan's trial, as well as Jay's motive for his involvement and the role his relationship with Stephanie and Adnan played in the case.
Join us in examining Adnan Syed's appeal and the complexities of Asia Chapman's involvement, discussing the impact of her social media presence, and the back-and-forth between the state and Adnan's attorney during the appeals process. We also analyze the prosecution's withholding of exculpatory evidence, the vacating of Adnan's conviction, and the ongoing quest for justice in this mind-boggling case.
What's the truth behind Jay's testimony in the murder case of Hae Min Lee? Can the inconsistencies he shares hold the key to understanding this baffling crime? In this episode, we break down Jay's account of the red gloves, the call from Adnan, and other peculiar details that raise more questions than answers.
As we analyze the autopsy report, we uncover how it fails to provide clear evidence of a timeline of events. Furthermore, we delve into the significance of levidity and how it could impact this case. We also speculate on motives and connections, touching on the media's portrayal of Muslims and how it may have influenced the outcome of Adnan's trial, as well as Jay's motive for his involvement and the role his relationship with Stephanie and Adnan played in the case.
Join us in examining Adnan Syed's appeal and the complexities of Asia Chapman's involvement, discussing the impact of her social media presence, and the back-and-forth between the state and Adnan's attorney during the appeals process. We also analyze the prosecution's withholding of exculpatory evidence, the vacating of Adnan's conviction, and the ongoing quest for justice in this mind-boggling case.
In this podcast we discuss sensitive subject matter And, if you're still with us, we discuss things that last forever. Listener discretion is advised. Hey Dee, are you still with us?
Speaker 2:Hardly.
Speaker 1:Oh, i've got my coffee over here. that says I'm kind of with us.
Speaker 2:Well, I've been drinking my coffee and it's not working. It's almost like I need an IV A coffee or just straight caffeine.
Speaker 1:I hear you.
Speaker 2:It's like an everyday thing, though It's a struggle. So it's not just this case No, oh, no, no, no, no, it is this case, because I'm getting bored with it.
Speaker 1:Okay, i'm, look, i love this case and I don't love this case in the sense that, wow, i love this case. I mean, you know, i'm attached to this case but I never really thought I'd be done with this case, as far as listening to myself talk about it.
Speaker 2:Not only that. I think part of the problem too is that there's so much to it that over time your brain just gets tired of hearing it and trying to figure it out And I certainly am, and I think that's taken a toll on how quick we're getting through it.
Speaker 1:I think so too. I mean, i know that when I was writing my story the story version of J's it's more like a novel. I mean it is, it's not short, and what's crazy is that I shortened it, which is kind of weird, but anyway. But when I was writing it I was like, oh my gosh, i can't believe I'm still talking about him and his testimony. I need to get out of this, i need to move on. Yeah, so I had talked about doing a story version of J's testimony, and so I'm going to do my best, but I found out that I am not a creative writer.
Speaker 2:Well, that's why you have me, so I'll just stick some sarcastic puns in there every so often. Well, i?
Speaker 1:hope so, because you know I'm more of a factual like teller, i guess, and I'll say this Not that it's not factual, i just I don't. I guess I'm more of a spur of the moment. Speaker.
Speaker 2:Okay, there you go. Yes, my allergies are insane, so if you hear me sounding weird, sniffing or possibly snoring, snoring sniffing take your guess on what's happening, whether I'm getting too tired of listening to this or anyway, let's go Okay.
Speaker 1:So we left off with I hope we left off here, because this is where I started. I believe we left off with Jay at Jen's house and he was playing video games with Jen. Anybody want to dispute whether I'm at the right spot?
Speaker 2:Am.
Speaker 1:I at the right spot.
Speaker 2:Yes, because you stated that they were most likely in the basement. Correct, okay.
Speaker 1:So here is my story On the afternoon of Jen wait, you need to stop it.
Speaker 2:You need to go once upon a time.
Speaker 1:Well, but that makes it sound unfactual.
Speaker 2:This is a factual story, but it might actually be more like catchy.
Speaker 1:Okay, once upon a time, on the afternoon of January 13, jay left Jen's house because he said Adnan told him to pick him up at 345. In Jay's world That meant that Adnan was supposed to call him again to tell him to pick him up, rather than just pick him up like Adnan asked. Anyway, since he didn't get that call at 345, jay left and drove to a friend's house who wasn't home at that time. Why not call before he drove over there? Because we're in Jay's world? Shockingly, wonders never cease. He got the call He knew he would get from Adnan asking him to pick him up from school. No, not from school, but from Best Buy. The reason I find this so interesting okay, i know I'm interjecting my opinions and my stories, so just kind of go with it, guys. Okay, the reason I find this so interesting is anyone else, especially in 1999, when being able to contact each other was still fairly limited would just have gone to the school at 345, like it was discussed on the phone. Jay had Adnan's phone, so Adnan had to use phones I'm sorry, had to use pay phones or other means to contact Jay. Why was Jay waiting for a phone call except to be able to insert this whole. Then he called and told me to pick him up from Best Buy. I don't see anywhere in the transcripts where they discuss Jay receiving a call. I'm not implying it isn't there, but it could have been anyone, since it was a pay phone and it seems as though they only paid attention to incoming calls if it was incriminating to Adnan. But anyway, i digress.
Speaker 1:Jay goes to the Best Buy where he sees Adnan standing at a pay phone and specifically mentions him wearing red gloves. This comment has caused many debates over the last two decades. Why would the first thing he noticed, and the first thing he said he noticed was those gloves. Was it in case something was found on his body or in her car? I do believe there were red fibers, or at least it was said that red fibers were found in her car or on her body One of the two And lost my place. The cops also made it a big deal about the red gloves to Adnan by threatening that they would find those red gloves and get him, but then it was dropped. It was never mentioned again. So what about? the red gloves were so important in Jay's testimony. Why bother Anyway? so Adnan gave Jay a look that meant for Jay to drive to the site of the building. Apparently he understands sign language or body language. Now I don't know. This is where one of the seven trunk pop locations occur. Jay's shocked, just dismayed all kinds of fucked up. So they went into their separate cars Jay in Adnan's car and Adnan in Hayes car and started driving around trying to find a place to leave Hayes car. After driving around they leave Hayes car at a parking ride and then they decide this would be a good time to go score some weed.
Speaker 1:Now here's another problem with Jay's timeline. He said he waited until 3.45 but didn't hear from Adnan. So he drove to his friend's house And then he heard from Adnan. But at this point the prosecutor asked Jay about a call he had made to Jen at 3.21. Jay said he called to see if she knew if their friend had any weed, because that's when him and Adnan were looking for weed. So basically nothing he said makes sense or is on any kind of rational timeline. I give up. T Yeah, anything. Where's my puns?
Speaker 2:I haven't found a place to put them yet.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, i just went through my story. Oh, that was my story.
Speaker 2:It's done, the end. I didn't hear it The end.
Speaker 1:The end I thought I'd give up was pretty much summing it up.
Speaker 2:Well, you need to say that because you started it once upon a time. No, listen, i think I tuned out, oh cool, good to be honest. But I had good reason to.
Speaker 1:Well, i'm glad you're being honest. I am.
Speaker 2:You know I can't lie, but I'm glad to know the story has come to an end.
Speaker 1:Well, i mean, it's only come to an end if you listened, because nothing he says makes no sense.
Speaker 2:Well, i know, and I think that's probably why I tuned out, only because it's like Well, here's my thing.
Speaker 1:No wonder he didn't get a call at 345 from Adnan, because it wasn't even 345.
Speaker 2:Don't you remember the last episode we were on? We said he couldn't tell time. He doesn't have a concept of any type of clock.
Speaker 1:It's either that or he has no concept of the truth?
Speaker 2:Well, he doesn't, and we know that for sure.
Speaker 1:So it's like I want to go through the rest of it, where he talked about you know the time it took to bury her body and all the steps he took to.
Speaker 2:you know, and and Adnan just walked over to his grandmother's house and grabbed some shovels and all of these things, but But I think even if we were to go through that, anything with the autopsy that we're going to talk about is inconsistent with what he says It is. So there's really no point because we'll talk about it with the autopsy.
Speaker 1:Correct. So the bottom line is this I want to make a couple of points about Jay's testimony, and that is, and you know, a lot of people talk about it. First of all, when he talks about the strangling of hey he was the only one that knew that.
Speaker 1:Right, and you know we can talk about it real quick if you want. I didn't include it in my story because the thing about it that I find interesting, that most people find interesting, and I actually had gone, you know, on one of our rabbit hole deep Oh my God, am I still here? kind of you know searches kind of thing. I did that because the way he describes quote unquote Adnan's description, if you will of he says Adnan, obviously strangling hay, it sounds like a first person story. So to me, that would leave me to believe that he is actually talking about something that he did and not Adnan, and that's why it's so creepy. You know, i don't know, i mean it's up to you. I mean I think that, like I said, i left it out of my story because if I talk about it, i think that it's important to hear how he says it and not how I interpret or how I break it down, because I just hearing his words I think are important.
Speaker 1:And if you want to move on after that, because everything else is all, if you want to, not, i don't want to say hearsay, it's not hearsay, it's just it's babble. Because his story is different than Jen's story, because you know both of them were supposedly, you know, with each other, when you know they were trying to recover the utensils, if you will, the utensils, the gardening tools, whatever that was used in burying her, and their stories are completely different. So somebody isn't telling the truth, duh, or neither one of them are. I don't know which one it is. So what do you think? Should we hear how he says it and let other people determine whether or not it's a story that he himself is telling about something he did?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then we'll move on. Yeah, okay, so this is where the prosecutor asked where they went And he said we turned, and I believe at this time he wanted to get back to track practice because he said he needed to be seen. This is when we started to talk a little bit. I don't know. He said to me it kind of hurt him, but not really, and when someone treats him like that they deserve to die. How can you treat somebody like that that you are supposed to love And then all knowing is Allah?
Speaker 2:Alright.
Speaker 1:Allah. First of all, I don't believe that anybody of the Muslim faith would end with just all knowing is Allah. I mean, I'm not saying that they don't, It's just not like that. Do you know what I'm saying To me? it?
Speaker 2:sounds like he just inserted it. Yeah, but it was almost like making fun of Yes.
Speaker 1:Yes, that is not how it goes, dude, anyway. So he asked how you know? did he explain what he meant? He said no, and then his last statement was motherfuckers, think they are hard. yada, yada. And then he asked did he describe the act at all? And he said yes, and this is where it gets a little. Oh, he said that he thought she was trying to say something to him like apologize, or say she was sorry And that and that, and that she had kicked off the turn signal in the car And he was worried about her scratching him on the face or something like that. He was saying okay, i'm going to stop there for a second. What would she be apologizing for? I know that Jay is trying to say that hey, treated Adnan poorly, or how could she do that to him? Yada, yada, yada. They broke up Once they broke up. They broke up, so there was nothing for her to apologize for. So who would she have anything to apologize to?
Speaker 1:Your guess is as good as mine. I have my guesses. And then he goes from saying that she was trying to apologize to kicking the turn signal off. I mean, that's a big jump. We go from apologizing to kicking the turn signal off And then being worried about scratching his face.
Speaker 2:Some of these details are so specific, but he can't remember anything leading up to it.
Speaker 1:Or timelines or time, or I mean, how specific is it that he said? Adnan said he was worried about her scratching his face. It amazes me that first of all. It amazes me that Adnan would have even said that. You know what I'm saying. That doesn't even come up, So do you? I was strangling this dude one time and I was so worried he was going to scratch my face. How does that even come up in a conversation?
Speaker 2:Right, But the thing too is again in the autopsy and stuff. We can talk about it, But unless we just want to get there at this point, Okay, let me just, let me just make sure.
Speaker 1:Other than that, that was all he talked about, the actual event. Okay, so that was. that was all. all I'm saying is is that it sounds very first person. Yes, and what I mean is he's not telling somebody else's story, but telling his own. Yeah, so we're going to go to the autopsy because we all have a headache with Jay.
Speaker 2:So I've been getting different little conflicting reports wherever I go And I think really all we can seriously look at is the actual transcripts of the autopsy report, right, Instead of hearsay or what people have written on the internet. Of course, and this report is really dumb.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, we've already figured that out, because clearly she's not white.
Speaker 2:Right, and it is labeled that she is a white female, yeah, so anyway, i saw nothing with stomach content which we have discussed, which I think would have been really important because she they talked about her getting soda and chips.
Speaker 1:I believe, yeah, and just before she left school that would have helped a lot, especially because they're talking about they believe that before three 30, she was dead. Okay, and at three o'clock or somewhere around there is when she got the soda and chips.
Speaker 2:So what happens when you die and there's food content in your stomach? it stays there. it doesn't get digested. it doesn't get digested. So but that would give us a timeline, it really would. Not only that is they do state that you know there was strangulation, there was proof of strangulation. They did not give any indication if a rope or a string or something was used, and they even stated that in in the court transcripts.
Speaker 1:So there's no markings or anything like that around her neck.
Speaker 2:No, it just stated that the the tissue. And what is that? bone? Yeah remember. Okay, that thing was damaged, but I had always heard that it was supposed to be broken.
Speaker 1:No, yeah, it doesn't have to be.
Speaker 2:So that's false. Yeah, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I find it very interesting because I don't know, i'm sure I heard the word, but never really. It kind of maybe just flew over my head. But the levidity is is so important especially in this case. So will you explain what that?
Speaker 1:really means. Okay, i'm going to do it the best I can, because you know that whole forensic medical examiner he stuff not my strongest. I understand it when it's being explained. I'm not sure how good I am at explaining. So levidity is basically where, depending on how the body is laying for you know, a significant amount of time, when it's starting to, i guess, decompose, if that's the right word, it's where the blood comes to rest. So, as right, right, so if the body rests for a significant amount of time in one position, the levidity is what you'll see, you know, above the skin. So it's I the best way I can explain. It is like seeing a bruise, right, right, so, but it takes like eight to 12 hours, or something like that, for levidity to form. And once it forms, that's it it stays Right.
Speaker 2:So in the court transcripts it says question were you able to make any determination as to whether strangulation in this case was manual, by hands or by some other means? And the answer was we did not see any implement a cord or anything that would make or string or anything like that. So basically they're saying they didn't, And yeah, And the other thing I thought was really interesting was did anybody happen to notice how scrawny Adnan was at that age?
Speaker 2:by the way, he certainly hasn't thickened up at that point. What I find interesting is in the autopsy, the right side of her body. So we discussed the fact that the levidity could it take anywhere from eight to 12 hours. Well, the thing is is it can take anywhere from eight to 10 hours, and longer if it's colder outside.
Speaker 1:Oh, which we also know. In January and Baltimore they were having extreme blizzards.
Speaker 2:So Hayes autopsy showed fixed, full interior levidity from her face downward to her chest, stomach and the front of her legs, but her body had been found on the right side. In order for full, fixed interior levidity to occur, haye had to have been lying face down and stretched flat for at least eight hours before she was moved to the burial site.
Speaker 1:And we know that Jay had said that she was pretzels in the back of the car, in the trunk, and then they went from there and just left her there for a few hours and then buried her.
Speaker 2:So if Haye had been buried at 7pm on this on the side, the levidity would have been on the right side of her body and not in the front.
Speaker 1:So, and that's how they found her is on her right side.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we'll know her left was more exposed Right.
Speaker 1:So she was, she was buried, she was leaning on her right.
Speaker 2:So the parts that were exposed were her hair, part of her arm, like her elbow, and her hip, a little bit of her hips. So it doesn't make sense that she was pretzels in the back of the car period Right, And anybody, even I and I'm short like five, four and a half I'm going to add that half in there.
Speaker 2:Right, so I do my three quarters. I get it. It's important at the DMV, i know. So anyway, i couldn't lay flat in a car. No, there's no way. No, so anything that Jay says is very inconsistent. Not only that, i get. This was back in the 90s. Dna wasn't a huge, huge deal, but they didn't find anything under her nails. So for a non to be worried about her scratching the face, he didn't have to, because there was no DNA under the nails.
Speaker 2:Odd, because you would think that she would have put up a fight. So I don't know. Maybe the person was hiding in the backseat of the car, could be, you know.
Speaker 1:I mean, you think about somebody. If somebody was hiding in the backseat of the car strangling and then her leg comes up, that that would pick it off. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So part that bothers me is and I understand the whole thing like I get it, but she was cremated. There's no way of exhuming her body and retesting her for things That sucks.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That sucks, cause there's nothing and they can only take so much DNA with what's left, with what's left and there isn't really much left cause there wasn't really anything there All the swabs for vaginal, anal, mouth, any of that?
Speaker 1:came back completely clear.
Speaker 2:She did have dirt in her nose and in her mouth, but that was from being buried. Right, her body obviously was showing that she had been buried for quite a while because she had like mold and parts of her skin were starting to like fall off. So You Yeah, there's a whole thing on that, but There's the sensitive subject matter And obviously, like, her skirt was pulled up.
Speaker 1:But there was no sexual assault.
Speaker 2:Her underwear had been moved. No, it wasn't moved. It was soiled, but it wasn't torn. So that makes sense for when a body dies.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Everything starts coming out. It's coming out, so there is no indication. I don't know. I'm just so weird because, now that I'm thinking, jay remembered the fact that her shoe was in the car.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she was pretzeled, yeah, but he knew her shoes were in the car. He knew her shoes were in the car, Although he maybe he knew her shoes were in the car because of when they went to bury her.
Speaker 2:Doesn't matter, he can't remember anything leading up to that point.
Speaker 1:Well, he remembers a lot, Just none of it is accurate.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:None of it.
Speaker 2:Seven different times, i don't know.
Speaker 1:And what kills me is that they, the jury found his testimony credible And so we're skipping to the end because we're kind of done. The jury, obviously, obviously or else we wouldn't be here found Adnan guilty and he was sentenced to life. And in speaking to the jury, they found that the guy that had testified about the cell phone towers and stuff like that that placed Adnan and Jay in certain points during the day, that to be credible. And then Jay's testimony they said, regardless of whether or not it was consistent. You couldn't get around the fact that what guy would implicate himself in assisting somebody burying a body if what he was saying wasn't true? It didn't matter whether or not it was consistent. Why would he do it unless it wasn't true? Or unless it was true, i should say, and so that's why they came back with a guilty verdict within two hours.
Speaker 1:Six week trial they came back in two hours. I mean it's like it's crazy, but it reminds me a lot of Alec Murdoch. I mean that was a six week trial. They came back in like three hours, you know, but okay. So even if I see you doing calculations, i'm a little worried.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i know, even if when they I'm just saying the seven o'clock thing That would still take hey into school. Yeah, I mean it doesn't it doesn't add up. No, it doesn't add up. Nothing adds up. And the truly sad part is one I don't think we'll ever know Right. Two, justice was not done for hay, No. And three, we don't even know what an emotive would be Like. Can we talk about that? Cause I can't think about what a motive would be to kill this poor girl.
Speaker 1:Okay, So guilty life? none of it makes sense. Let's go to motive. All right, who has motive? We've discussed odd non And I don't see a motive. I don't Because throughout the time that, you know, even after their breakup, they were good friends.
Speaker 1:There was no animosity. You know I talked about like, when her car broke down, she didn't call Don, she called odd non. There were discussions, even, you know, soon after the breakup, close to close to before she died, where she was talking to friends, and some of this is in the testimony that I skipped because I'm pretty sure I mentioned this in the beginning. A lot of the friends testimony was just not a whole lot of help. It was, yeah, we saw her that day. Yeah, we saw her, you know, here, there, everywhere, you know. Or, yes, i saw odd non every day. No, he wasn't bitter, he was sad but not bitter. You know that kind of thing where it just wasn't helpful And then it skips to after he's already missing.
Speaker 1:So a lot of it isn't really helpful. But the thing is that, you know, my takeaway is like one of the friends said that, hey, had you know discussions with her where she discussed that you know she was struggling with, you know being broken up with him the last time, because she did love him and she did want to be with him, but their circumstances were just too difficult and it just made it too hard, right? So you know, obviously hey still had feelings for odd non. We know that odd non still had feelings for her. So there was still that love between them. You know that high school love.
Speaker 2:Anyway, I don't believe anybody is really in love in high school?
Speaker 1:I don't either, but that's why I said high school love, because you don't really know what love is.
Speaker 2:You don't, but you believe, you do. It will be nice, for the sake of being nicer.
Speaker 1:You know, i mean, and the thing is, is that I'm not saying it doesn't happen that in high school, you know, there's that, you know, bitter breakup and boyfriend kills, girlfriend, girlfriend kills. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, sure it does, but the odds of that being the reason you know. and then you know the fact that Jay throws, like you know. I'll tell you why. he said all knowing is Allah. I know why he said that. The reason he said that is because he's trying to implicate odd non's religion in the reason why he killed hay. You betrayed me, you hurt me, you this, and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth because I get so tired of people portraying Muslims as being violent when they're not. Do you know what I'm?
Speaker 2:saying I do, I mean obviously it's a stereotype.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I know that's where he was going with it Right, It's definitely a stereotype.
Speaker 2:Again, this is pre-911. And even then I knew nothing about them.
Speaker 1:Well, you were kind of a baby. Well, I mean, I was, I was you were a baby.
Speaker 2:Okay, what is that? 99, she died. Yeah, okay, i was going into my senior year of high school. I wasn't that much of a baby, but I knew nothing of the Muslim religion because that wasn't something one that was really in my area, where I grew up. Two, that's not something I practiced. And three, the only time I ever really learned about it was after 9-11.
Speaker 1:See I grew up around it, because you know my sister's best friend, who is, you know. I mean we consider her family, our family, like we are all very close. Like you know, she calls my mom mom, like we are very close. I grew up around her Right And they're refugees from Iran And it's something that I am very emphatic about when it comes to the Muslim religion.
Speaker 2:Well, i mean, the only thing that people really knew was what we saw on the news, of course, so do you think that that speaks in a positive light?
Speaker 1:No, and that's what I'm saying. It's like you know, and you talk about it being pre 9-11, the problem is, is that, especially on the East Coast, you're talking about an area that had been attacked by extremists on multiple occasions before 9-11. 9-11 wasn't an isolated incident. It was just the largest.
Speaker 2:It was the largest and the most covered. Yes, because I mean there was the Olympic bombing And there was also the bombing of the Twin Towers.
Speaker 1:Before that There was a bombing in the basement or in the garage. They had tried already. 9-11 wasn't the first one, is all I'm saying. So it was already very in people's face. That's why in the bail hearing, the prosecutor kept driving home about, you know, the Muslim community and being from Pakistan and all of these things. That were all stereotypes and none of it was true. None of it. So that's why I'm saying it's like. It's so frustrating to me when you know people are so bigoted in their thinking.
Speaker 2:Well, i'm just gonna say it It's what we are given, what news, what information we are given, and for the majority, if not more, people don't research. They don't do their own research.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, it's like saying you know, well, I don't wanna go there, but you know, there's the Muslim faith, and then you have the Islamic extremists. The Muslim faith is very different. They are the most lovely people. So I'm just saying that it sucks to see somebody drag through the mouth of the Muslim community Like that or their faith.
Speaker 2:And it was probably much easier to convict a Muslim versus an African American, and I'm saying that only because, being that their culture is as I mean, I think it's a little bit of a stereotype. It probably was a lot easier too, and that they wouldn't really have much of a chance.
Speaker 1:Right, well, it was easy to misconstrue, if you will, as far as how things go in that culture. For sure, And I mean obviously we know that African Americans aren't judged based on violence, or right, yeah, it would be their color of their skin, but this was probably a much easier scapegoat. I get it. It just sucks.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it does.
Speaker 1:Back to motive. I don't see there being one for odd number No.
Speaker 2:I don't either, but the thing is is that I have a really hard time seeing a motive for anyone, even though we've kind of discussed certain things. What would Jay's motive?
Speaker 1:be So with Jay. I can see a couple. The first one I see is Jay was accused or it has been insinuated or I don't know what the right word is that he was cheating on Stephanie And he was using friends' cars or what. Have you to go and see these women? I don't know if it's these women or a woman or whoever he was cheating on her with, and my understanding was is that I had mentioned that November and December is when Jay had started using Adnan to take him places, and he was very shady about saying places. It wasn't like he would take me to work, he would take me home from work, he would take me to Stephanie's house. It wasn't very specific, it was just quote unquote, places, and nobody pushed him on what those places were.
Speaker 1:I'm reasonably sure Christina probably said that you cheated on your girlfriend or whatever, but my feeling or my thoughts on that are that I believe Hey and Adnan were heard arguing at one point because Hey was angry at Adnan for not saying anything to Stephanie Because Stephanie was supposedly his best friend Stephanie is Jay's girlfriend and Hey couldn't understand why Adnan wouldn't say anything. Did I say that right? Or did I say Stephanie? Hey couldn't understand why Adnan wouldn't say anything to Stephanie, and it may have been a situation where either Hey said something to Jay where she's like you need to say something to Stephanie, you need to tell Stephanie, or I'm gonna tell her myself. But how much interaction did Hey have with Jay? There was, i believe, and I'll look at it again, but I believe there was at least once.
Speaker 1:If that just seems so odd to me Although okay, or I was going to my, or Adnan went to Jay and said dude, really you should say something to Stephanie, because I'm afraid Hey might say something And maybe that's how Jay implicated.
Speaker 2:But is that really a reason to kill? It seems so, okay, minor.
Speaker 1:These people are babies and they have baby brains And sometimes when you think with your lizard brain and you're high, who knows, who knows, i don't know. I mean, i don't get high, so I don't, i don't know. Yeah, you know, i just don't.
Speaker 2:So what would the motive be for? Oh, what's his name, the mentor Bilal.
Speaker 1:So my thoughts on Bilal are thus Adnan's parents went to Bilal and said you need to get this girl out of Adnan's life. I don't want him with him, I don't want her with him. He's not supposed to be with girls, period. In fact, in their religion, co-mingling with females on any level is forbidden.
Speaker 2:Good luck.
Speaker 1:Right And I, and obviously they know he goes to school. But beyond that, in fact, one of his friends drove him home and he had her drop him off across the street, because even as friends it wasn't allowed, That's tough being in the United States. Yeah, it is, it is And that's again why they ended up building a school in their community, because it just got too hard.
Speaker 2:So I can understand that motive, but at the same time, why let Adnan take the fall for it?
Speaker 1:Well, I don't think that he expected hey to be found. I don't think he expected Adnan to be caught, And I believe that Bilal is a coward. I think he's sleazy, disgusting and a pedophile. And then, on top of all that, I think he's a coward. So, Bilal, what is he doing?
Speaker 2:So, bilal, what does he know with Jay if those two are connected? So my thought is that they found the stupidest tool in the shed.
Speaker 1:I don't think that Bilal yeah, i don't think Bilal actually did anything physically. So my thinking is is that somehow he set it up with Jay. They had everything planned out and somehow Jay shockingly fucked it up Shocking.
Speaker 2:So do you think Adnan was involved in any way?
Speaker 1:I still have a question mark. I mean, the thing that I tell myself is to keep an open mind, to not constantly look at him as a victim, because I've always looked at him as a victim. He was a baby. Look at your kids. He was only a couple of years older than your middle, like a year and a halfish younger than your oldest. I mean a baby, And it's heartbreaking to think that he was put away without a chance.
Speaker 2:I think. Going back to Bilal thinking, if this is how it went, that she would never be found, that was really dumb on his part, because whoever buried hey didn't do a good job. Did a really lousy job.
Speaker 1:No, because if it was Bilal, he left it up to Jay And Jay. anything Jay touches turns to shit.
Speaker 2:So now Jay is married, has kids and stays under the radar. He refuses to go on camera.
Speaker 1:He has done, I think, a two-part interview where he also changes the location of the trunk pop. But don't you think his wife I mean, could she be just?
Speaker 2:as dumb, or even more dumb, for marrying him, for marrying him and then believing in his stories. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1:None of it to me, none of it adds up, and I think that, at the end of the day, in my world, if you cannot point the finger at a person, then you cannot come up with a guilty verdict, and so, as far as I'm concerned, then Adnan was found guilty incorrectly.
Speaker 2:Incorrectly? Oh, there's definitely no way that. Without a reasonable doubt, i do not understand how they found him guilty, correct?
Speaker 1:So, with that said, there's obvious. I don't know what's where. I'm looking for question marks around what I'm gonna say next, but we'll go with it. Oh, i just hit my mic, sorry guys, I use my hands when I talk, so that's how that happens. So obviously, i know a lot of people. When people are defendants, what have you? when their attorneys appeal, guilty verdicts, a lot of people sit there and go. But he's guilty. How can their attorney do this? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It happens, it doesn't matter. You know, attorneys are doing their job. This is what they do. You know it has to be done because it's the defendants' rights. These are their rights.
Speaker 2:So, especially when you're talking about a life sentence, death sentence, anything like that, it has to be done, i agree, but when there's ones that are so obvious, like that, lori Vallow and we come on.
Speaker 1:It doesn't matter. It's her constitutional right, of course. But what about the victims? I understand that, but it's her right. If there was anything in a court case that they have validity to in order to appeal, you appeal on it and nine times out of 10, it gets shot down and their appeal is not listened to, and it takes a really long time. I mean a really long time. So when I say it takes a long time, i'm not kidding. So, adnan, obviously through new attorneys, because, unfortunately, christina Gutierrez passed away in 2004,. We discussed this, that we and by we I mean other people had kind of believed that by 1999, when she was trying this case, that she was starting to exhibit symptoms of MS and that's why she wasn't yes, but however, she was known as one of the best attorneys Yeah, defense attorney that you would want.
Speaker 2:So it's tragic to think that, because of her illness, it's possible that he lost due to that.
Speaker 1:It's sad. It is sad. So Audnan had, through his attorney, petitioned the court for post-conviction relief in 2010, and then filed a supplement to that in 2011. And then they had held a hearing, i guess in 2012. And what's crazy to me is that there were reasons. It jumps. I'm just kind of reading through one of the memorandums. But based on the reasons stated in the January 6, 2014 memorandum, the court denied the petition. So we're going from 2010,. So he's been in jail now 10 years when he files the post-conviction relief Right.
Speaker 2:That's 10 years to file. Why didn't it take 10 years to file?
Speaker 1:Well, first of all, his attorney died in 2004. Right.
Speaker 2:But why wouldn't they just turn around and immediately do it?
Speaker 1:It takes on average. you can immediately tell the court like within days your intent to appeal, but from there it can take a year two years to gather up, in case they go for a whole new case.
Speaker 1:That's not just that, but you have to get transcripts from the case itself, which takes time because it has to all be certified and all of that stuff. You have to pay for it. You have to be able to. I mean, it costs money. You know, and my understanding and I could be wrong I'm not sure that he had a public defender. He may have ended up with one, but it's not a quick process. And I keep going back to Alec Murdoch, but just using him as an example. Within a day or two they had filed with the court their intent to appeal, but the actual appeal won't be for probably another year, two, maybe three years from now, maybe Now going back into the 90s. It depends on dockets, it depends on all kinds of things as to how long this process takes.
Speaker 2:And there really wasn't an email thing, right Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean there was an email, but I mean it was just now, i mean dial up, and you know. So it was denied. Now what happened between 2000 and 2015 was that this letter had emerged that Adnan, I guess, had given. either Adnan had given to his attorney or he believed somebody had. I think Adnan had given it to his attorney, And that was a letter from Asia McLean. Now there's a lot of, like I said, controversy around this letter as to how it came to be, but the letter was written from Asia to Adnan basically saying I'm going to paraphrase you know, do you remember talking to me in the library? because I remember talking to you.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And it gave a specific time frame that they spoke And it essentially gave him an alibi for the day in question And the hour of, you know, the time frame was specific enough that it made it so he couldn't have killed Hay. Now, the reason why there's controversy over this is because I believe people have spoken that Asia had gone over to his house, spoken to his parents or his dad or his mom or somebody, and it is believed that they concocted an alibi, that it was made up Because of when the letter was written, versus what was written in the letter. So supposedly it was written right after I believe right after he was arrested, but it had, like, his prison number on it, it had his cell number on it, it had things on it that you would only have if it was written later. So it was. There was just some inconsistencies, if you will, and, like I said, adnan had given the letter to Christina Gutierrez and Christina Gutierrez did nothing, so she didn't follow up with Asia, didn't talk to her, didn't call her, didn't anything, and because of that, so they filed another. I'm calling it an appeal, but it's basically it was. They filed paperwork or whatever to allow them to reopen his post conviction. Obviously the state is going to file their paperwork to say, no, i don't want you to. It's going to be a whole thing. This is obviously a higher court. The state wanted to remand it to the lower court so that they can go over the alibi witness And in that the state alleged that there's two sisters from Woodlawn High School who have recently come forward to say they had knowledge in 1999 that Asia intended to lie for Adnan.
Speaker 1:So an email had been received and obviously the name has been redacted. Emails have been redacted And of course it was too thorough. I can never pronounce his name, but he was going for the Baltimore Attorney General whatever can't stand the guy And the email said hello, my name is Blank. I'm not even sure if I'm contacting the right person, but I hope I'm hoping I am. I was going to stay out of it because I didn't think Adnan would be granted a new trial based on her fabricated story But seeing as he has, i felt it was important to come forward. Asia McLean Chapman I believe she's married at this point. Her story, asia McLean Chapman's story about seeing Adnan in the library the day he was killed is a lie I very much remember, as does the name is redacted.
Speaker 1:Having a conversation with Asia in our co-op class, about Asia saying she believed so much in Adnan's innocence that she would make up a lie to prove he couldn't have done it. Both my sister and I more so my sister argued with Asia about how serious this situation was. She just said that it wouldn't hurt anything, that if he was truly guilty then he would be convicted. I'm not sure what can come of this information, but I felt I had to let someone know. Thank you for your time. So the state had received that and obviously they attached that with their paperwork. As to why Adnan shouldn't receive a new trial, because basically Adnan was saying that he didn't receive effective counsel because she didn't go after this alibi witness. And of course it's argued that well, why would she go after an alibi witness if she herself thought that this alibi witness either wouldn't stand up in court, that on cross-examination she would get completely shot down and it would really ruin his chances of getting acquitted or a multitude of things? but at the end of the day, it's still her job to at least vet the witness and she didn't. So anyway, the affidavit that this person did. It's more in detail. So the affidavit. Obviously the names are redacted again because at the time of Hayes' death they were minors, so they continued to redact the names.
Speaker 1:I blank here by certify that I am over the age of 18 years and am competent to testify, and I can't read that whatever And a ver as follows I went to Woodlawn High School all four years and graduated in 1999. I met Asia McLean during my freshman year at Woodlawn and she and I became very close friends Over the next few years. We remained friends but we're not as close as we were our freshman year. We have been friends on Facebook for a while, but mostly to the extent of liking one another's photos. Her last name is now Chapman. In.
Speaker 1:A few days after Adnan was arrested in 1999 for killing Hayman Lee, asia and I were in Ms Graham's co-op class, blank, when Asia told us she believed so much in Adnan's innocence she would make up a lie to prove he couldn't have done it. This started a very heated argument between Asia and Blank that I had to step in and calm them down. But no time during this conversation and argument did Asia mention why she believed in his innocence, though she did say she believed that he just didn't seem capable of doing something like that. She did not say that she had seen Adnan on the day the girl was killed And, um, i lost it. Girl was killed. And she did not say that she had a conversation with him in the library. She and Blank were arguing because she was saying she would make up a lie to help him and my sister was telling her how serious the situation was, that she can get into trouble and she should not lie because a girl was dead. This topic did not come up again and I assumed that Asia came to her senses and decided not to go, not to get involved.
Speaker 1:Sometime in late 2014, i heard about the podcast and when I listened to a few episodes I realized Asia had gotten involved. On November 7, 2014, i messaged Asia through Facebook and told her I did not know that she had been involved. I was trying to get a reaction from her by sending her a message and calling her out. She did not respond. My chat with Asia is included. On December 28, 2014, asia sent me pictures on Facebook of a three-page letter I had written her when I was a freshman and when we were very close, three-page letter attached The next time Asia sent me a message was March 2, 2016. She sent a group message to me and Blank with a picture from what I think was our high school co-op class. Since there are other people in it, i am not including the photo, but I do have it Blank. Asia and I all chatted about it. This group chat is included. When I said, yes, asia, we had co-op with you, that was because I knew she knew that we were all in that class and because I know she remembers the argument we all had too.
Speaker 1:I did not plan to do anything with my information because I did not ever think anyone would believe her and I did not think Adnan would get a new trial. When I heard that he got a new trial, i sent her a long message saying I hope she could live with herself. I then blocked her. I had a few sleepless nights after that thinking about whether I should come forward. My sister and I talked about it. After a few days, i decided I needed to let someone know.
Speaker 1:I sent an email on July 7, 2016 to the SA handling the case, email included. I did not hear from anyone for a few days, but then was contacted by a police detective on July 22, 2016. I am willing to tell what I know in court if that is needed. I do think it is sad what Asia is doing. I did not know Adnan or Hei. I'm not doing this for any reason, except because it is the right thing to do. I have spoken to my family and we ask that everyone respect our privacy. I do not want to do any interview with anyone unless it is needed for court. I am prepared to participate in any court proceedings if necessary. Now here's my feeling about this. There's nothing about it that makes me feel that it is coerced or false or like I truly believe her affidavit.
Speaker 2:You know, i do too. I do believe that she would have no reason to send that if it was false.
Speaker 1:And not to sound like a fangirl or anything, but okay, i have gone on Asia Chapman's social media accounts and she is a very big pick-me-girl. Do you know what a pick-me-girl is? Look at me, i'm big. Be my friend, i want to be a part of everything. You know that girl, you know like when Adnan has successes she's very much like oh yay, i'm so happy, i'm overjoyed.
Speaker 2:Look, you know she's got all the selfies, she's got all the you know, she has something that she's been tied to, so she's going to run with it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, And it kind of makes me feel like it was not such an accurate alibi, especially because Adnan doesn't remember Right. I think that she Well, and I mean and he's not giving any bogus like timelines either. So the thing is is that I almost feel like he remembers a conversation with her because it has been said that it happened. You know how sometimes that happens.
Speaker 2:Sometimes yeah, Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, it's like somebody says, oh, do you remember? blah, blah, blah, and you're like, hmm, i don't think so. And they're like, yeah, we were this, we were that, and you can kind of picture yourself doing it, Having that conversation yeah, like the possibility is definitely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i can totally picture myself doing that, but do I remember it being that day? Do I remember it being that time? Do I remember I don't know? You know, and there's that, but I think what bothers me is that Adnan giving his attorney the alibi letter. It feels a little bit like why, if you don't remember it happening, you know what I'm saying It's like are you part of this whole lie?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so then I'm looking at him like but maybe he did tell his attorney like I don't really quite remember this, And then that's why she didn't do anything.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Even though she has the responsibility to follow through with it. Maybe it was really that thing where she goes. Hmm, maybe I don't even.
Speaker 1:It's very possible that he said look, i think my family is doing everything that they can to make sure that I get out. I don't know what this is, But here this is. I just feel that I should give it to you. Blah, blah, blah. But at the end of the day, it also gave him a means to appeal And eventually it worked and they were granted it. But then it got overturned. Long story longer. It eventually got to the point where it was very back and forth. He was granted an appeal, he was granted a new trial, the state appealed it, they were granted the reversal of that appeal, and so then Adnan got denied that new trial And eventually they ended up taking it to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court denied hearing the case, and that was in 2019. So I mean, he has tried and tried and tried and tried, over and over and over, until we get to the present. Oh my God, dear Lord, we're at the present.
Speaker 2:Holy somebody grab a beer.
Speaker 1:I still don't believe it, But anyway so initially like I'm gonna back it up a little bit.
Speaker 2:Oh God, see, I told you I didn't believe it. I know, i know.
Speaker 1:I know I'm sorry, so initially there was an election I think it was like in 2000, i'm gonna guess 18, where there were three candidates. There was Mosie, was it Mosie? Mosie, mosie. It was Mosie, that guy that I can't pronounce his name, i don't even wanna try, the one that I just read the email from. And then this other dude I can't remember his name anymore because that was like 25 podcasts ago And the one guy who had the slim to none chance of winning had basically said if I get elected, my first order of business is to pardon. But none, that's it. That's happening. Well, he lost Right, and so did that. Verage, or Verage or whatever his name was, could not stand him, could not stand him, but anyway, that's how I feel. Mosie ended up getting elected. Okay, i think that's her name, but anyway, i'm not looking at anything right now because I'm just talking. I'm getting us through this.
Speaker 1:So here's the thing with Mosie She was very much defund the police. Let's let some lower offending criminals offend a little bit more. It's not that big of a deal. La, la, la, la la. And Baltimore went to hell in a hand basket, like it wasn't already. But crime soared. It was really bad, like it got really bad under Mosie And you know much like Los Angeles Anyway, but I digress. So people were pretty unhappy with her And then she got caught up in some tax frauds and probably campaign frauds and all of these things that she's in the middle of investigations for and is going to be indicted on, and so she's having some issues. So, for whatever reason she decides, i'm gonna throw a Hail Mary here. I'm getting out of office, i'm not getting reelected, so I'm gonna go ahead and just let's pull the plug. We're gonna go ahead and vacate Adnan's conviction.
Speaker 1:Now I guess there are many issues with this. The first issue is is that the victim, which would be Hayes' brother in this situation I think he's the point of contact, which is why it's him specific is supposed to get a seven day, i guess, notification that a hearing is gonna happen? That was their first fail, because they decided on Friday it was a Friday that they were gonna have the hearing on Monday and they let Young Lee know on Friday. So technically not even a full two days, because you can't count the weekend. So that was their first fail. Then the other problem is is that the state now remember, it's the state that's bringing it. So it's not like the defense has to bring any kind of evidence or show anything, because it's the state which is usually the one that does the charges.
Speaker 1:The state basically said there were two other suspects that were never investigated, that were never given to the defense as exculpatory evidence, there was a DNA that needed to be tested, that hadn't been tested and all of this stuff. So basically she said look all of these things before the hearing. I'm gonna back it up again Before the hearing. She said we're gonna test all of this stuff and if everything comes back as not matching Adnan, we're done. And it came back as not matching Adnan. So a lot of people like to say well, why was the DNA be on his shoes? But they did. They tested more than his shoes. They tested her shirt shoes.
Speaker 1:Obviously there were the swabs that they had taken. All of these things. None of it came back as matching him. There were the hair fibers that were found didn't match him and it didn't match Jay and it didn't match I believe it was Dawn that they tested it against. There were eight unknown fingerprints on her car that were never tested. None of them were Adnan's. There were all of these things Cause basically what they did was they took the fingerprints, they ran it in the database, it came back as unknown and they left it at that. Oh, we don't know. They didn't test it against anybody in her family, they didn't test it against any other friends. They didn't say hey guys, we need all of your fingerprints so that we can test it. I don't ask why Don't I see your mouth forming the why? There is no why because they didn't. They didn't do it. It came back unknown and they're like meh don't know And they left it at that. It didn't match the people that they thought it would match, and so they just said meh.
Speaker 1:But we found Adnan's fingerprints on what should be on like papers that he should have touched because he was with her first, but whatever. So we found him there, so it's good.
Speaker 2:Let me just ask this. I'm just really curious How did the prosecution accept the fact that there were no fingerprints tested?
Speaker 1:They don't care.
Speaker 2:See, here's the problem and I'm The DA, the DA, how is it?
Speaker 1:They don't care.
Speaker 2:I don't understand though.
Speaker 1:I've mentioned it before Prosecutors care about wins and loses. All they care is that they win a case, because that defines their career. That defines them.
Speaker 2:But look at what a mess this one has created.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, and every single person that was involved in the prosecution will tell you to this day it was Adnan. We stick to our story. We stick to our case. Everything that we did was valid. They don't care. They don't care if it's the right person or not, they care if they win. That's it.
Speaker 1:That's why prosecutors rub me the wrong way, except there are some I'm not saying there aren't good ones, i actually listen. Personally, i listen to a podcast that I enjoy, a couple of them actually that are prosecutors. So it's not to say that it doesn't happen, because it does, that there are good prosecutors out there, but there is the vast majority I hate saying majority just a whole lot that only care about winning. The police gave me this information. The police told me it was this person and I will do everything in my power to make sure that this person goes to jail. And the prosecutors, the investigators, the anybody involved in finding evidence, all of them are all in the same group. They work with each other to make sure everything is airtight and that person goes to jail. That's why there's so many people that get convicted, that are innocent, and that's what pisses me off. If it weren't for that, i'd be 100,. Okay, we won't get into politics but, anyway.
Speaker 1:So it was said that the prosecution had two other suspects that they didn't reveal to the defense, which is exculpatory evidence, which is a Brady violation. So prosecution has to give all of the evidence to the defense. it doesn't matter if they deem it worthy or not. it has to be everything, everything, everything. And that includes whether or not there are other suspects. And Mosley's issue is is that she stated but I can't tell you who those other suspects are, because we don't wanna reveal that information, because we're still investigating. Well, that doesn't really fly. So she's lacking evidence and she's lacking giving time to the victim and really a good faith argument for why she's vacating Adnan's conviction. So while I was elated I think you remember how elated I was when they vacated his conviction and he was released that day. it was fairly short lived. Now he's still not in jail, so which at least, at least that because they felt when they reversed his vacations.
Speaker 1:I know you've asked me numerous times how it's not double jeopardy. It's not double jeopardy. They didn't reconvict him. They didn't convict him again. He didn't have a trial where they convicted him a second time. They reversed the vacature. So, like vacating the conviction, it went away. it never happened. They reversed that vacature. that means it never happened. Whoops, i hit my freaking microphone again, sorry guys. So when you reverse something, when you make it so that it never happened, it never happened, there is no double jeopardy because it didn't happen, it's like magic, it just disappeared.
Speaker 1:So Young Lee had his attorney which I have no doubt was probably sent to him by the prosecutor, but I digress because that's just how they rule And he filed an appeal because he didn't get the proper notification. And so when they filed their appeal, the judge that granted the appeal that said, yeah, we're reversing this vacature kind of led a path, if you will, to whoever hears the case again as to what needs to happen in order for Adnan to really have his case vacated, his conviction vacated because Mosley's arguments were flat. in other words, i will say that it was brought up when Mosley had talked about the other suspects that one of the other suspects, who shall not be named, was somebody who bought Adnan a cell phone, but we won't mention who that is, even though everybody knows that it was Bilal that got him the cell phone. So that way to not name somebody, i mean it was only very well known who got Adnan the cell phone Interesting, so he was one of the suspects.
Speaker 2:So here we are.
Speaker 1:He had a hearing that was set not that long ago that both the state and the appellant, if you will, agreed to postpone. He's still free, not in jail, but I mean, look, i look at this in many ways. First of all, if he's guilty, let's say he did it, 100%, he did it. There is nothing in what the investigators did, the prosecution did that. Anybody did to me that, painted it so that I believe a jury could have convicted him with no reasonable doubt.
Speaker 2:I agree 100% And you know me and how things are.
Speaker 1:You decide things emotionally, oh, yeah, yeah. So because of that I don't care.
Speaker 2:At this point.
Speaker 1:I don't care if he did it or not. He should not have been found guilty.
Speaker 2:He shouldn't have And that is such an odd thing to say if he did do it Right.
Speaker 1:But see, this is why I feel the way I feel. Do you see why I feel the way I feel?
Speaker 2:Yeah, but a lot of cases that we've discussed are not as crazy as this one.
Speaker 1:I get it, but it's because of cases like this that the laws and our rights are the way they are. because it shouldn't happen, i get it.
Speaker 2:So and the only case I'm thinking of right now is the Scott Peterson one, because I still don't believe that, yeah, so anyway. So we'll have to give an update on where this goes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when it happens, if it happens, yeah, Because I mean, I, yeah, I think that that there was no justice for anybody who's involved.
Speaker 2:Yeah, It's such a sad, sad story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it really is, and it's sad that it took us nine episodes to get to the sad, sad story, yeah, But at the end of the day, hey has no justice, adnan has no justice, and neither do either one of their families.
Speaker 2:And I think that's the important part that we need to take away, yeah, is that there is no justice, no justice, none, and and the state really failed them, and I think the other thing is is that you know, young has always seemed to me to be somebody who would swear up and down that Adnan did it.
Speaker 1:But there was a comment that I read somewhere where he said you know, if this person isn't the one that killed my sister, i want to know who was. But I want you to show me why he wasn't. And I think that, while that's important, first of all, at least it shows he has a bit of an open mind that maybe Adnan did it. But the one thing that people have to understand is that it's not up to him to show you that he didn't do it. It's up to the prosecution to show that he did.
Speaker 2:Well, and that's what they didn't do, right, but I mean looking at it from his point of view, there's that emotional attachment. Right, it was his sister. I get it. I get it Yeah.
Speaker 1:But again, it is up to the prosecution to show that he did it, not for him to show that he didn't. He has no obligation to show that he didn't do it Right And the prosecution didn't show that he did Right. And that's the bottom line. I mean, you know, i could have done this in one podcast. The prosecution didn't show that Adnan did it, end of story. I mean, honestly, i don't know why we didn't do that to begin with, but I guess we wouldn't have had much of a podcast.
Speaker 2:But I'm sure there's some people who would have appreciated one, I mean.
Speaker 1:I'm pretty sure that people are tired of. Are you guys tired of the story? Because we are moving on, we are done, we are out of it. I know that we probably bypassed a few things, but we were so done. We had to get out of here.
Speaker 2:That's why it's taken us so long to upload episodes, because we've taken breaks.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, i mean, it's like you want you ready to do one. No, no, i just. we were supposed to do this like two days ago and we were like I need another day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's tedious, so thank you for sticking with us, if you have. If you have, if we lost you, we apologize. Hopefully we'll catch you on the next podcast.
Speaker 1:Hopefully you'll see that after this one there'll be a whole new subject matter and maybe you'll come back.
Speaker 2:I know.
Speaker 1:I hope So, until next time. Bye for now, bye.