Sentenced to 104 Years at 17: Growing Up in the Crack Era, Prison & Finding Purpose | Horacio J. Hill

At only 17 years old, Horacio J. Hill received a sentence totaling 104 years—a reality he says he wasn’t prepared to understand as a teenager navigating the criminal justice system.

Horacio shares the story behind the sentence, beginning with a childhood shaped by the crack era, instability, street culture, difficult family relationships, and experiences that left lasting emotional wounds. He reflects on how those circumstances influenced him while still taking responsibility for the decisions that eventually led him to prison.

Now on the other side of incarceration, Horacio talks about faith, accountability, family, rebuilding his life, and trying to make right the wrongs of his past.

A powerful conversation about what can shape a child, what prison can take away, and what it means to get another chance at life.

#truecrime #storytime #truecrimcommunity #prison #indeliblymarked

Dominique Kuykendall
https://youtube.com/@indelibleartsnetwork

https://www.instagram.com/indelible_rudy/

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:07

Now here I am, you know, in this situation, and I'm facing, you know, not 20 years, but I'm facing hundreds of years. 20 years is what I play guilty to. You know, we're talking about telling a 17-year-old kid, yeah, they want uh a 90, uh 90 years, 30 years for this, 30 years for that. You know, I received a hundred and four years. They just ran them together. My mama named Twin, and she with her and her sister was the Ick Girls, and on 51st in Woodland is where we live. And my mom, I was like my mama's little kin doll. And so my mama took me around with her. She was 16 when she had me. And so all the little dope boys around that neighborhood used to, you should, you know, mess with her. And so I used to see like the big diamonds, the big chains, you know what I'm saying? Dudes from 55th, 51st, 53rd, all the different families, known families in them neighborhoods, 57th, all that. I used to see them. They used to mess with my mama. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 1:43

So. Like when you say mess with you saying like that, you rock with her.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

Nah, rock with her. Take it with her. They all our house was the house. Our house was the house that they all used to go to. The the the the the rap, the music group, famous music group that we had from the city, I think it's MP, something like that. They used to come over our house. The uh matter of fact, how 51st got to be the nutty block crib, like those, those crips from Cali, those comping crips. They that's my cousin daddy. They used to come over our house. So our house was a house. So I just grew up as a kid watching all of them. You know what I'm saying? And then this is when the crack era came, you know what I mean? And so like I'm watching them, you know what I'm saying, smoke primos and smoke crack like we smoke weed. You know what I'm saying? And so shit, I was just able to do what I wanted to do. I could go to the corner stop, you know what I'm saying? Across the street was rabbit, you know what I mean? Around the corner was Munch Num, you know what I'm saying? And, you know, over here was these dudes over here, you know what I'm saying? And so we used to just, I used to just run around the whole neighborhood, you know what I'm saying, and go to the corner stop because I could, because my mama didn't care. You know what I'm saying? She was kicking it. And so it just, it what it instilled in me was just I could do what I wanted to do when I wanted to do it and how I wanted to do it, you know what I'm saying? And my mama, you know, she used to boo, so she'd just bring me clothes. Okay, you got back clothes, I go to the club, get what I want. All right, she take the ribs, go sell the red, do whatever she wants to do. You know what I'm saying? Because it was just me and her, you know, my other cousins, you know what I'm saying? We were just able to do what we wanted to do. So it started then, you know what I'm saying? Straight up.

SPEAKER_03 3:26

You knew she you knew what that you knew what she was doing? You knew the boosting and stuff, you knew what that was at that time?

SPEAKER_02 3:33

Nah, all I'm doing was she she got a bag of clothes, coming coming in trash bags, you know what I'm saying? My clothes came in trash bags, like with tags out them, you know what I'm saying? Brand new. You know what I'm saying? She puts little finger waves in my hair. Finger waves.

SPEAKER_03 3:51

My mama used to do that.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

Go, Baba. You know what I'm saying? You know, the the dudes, you know, they used to come get jumped, you know what I'm saying? I see one big family for real.

SPEAKER_02 4:04

I was saying when they chased one dude to the house and beat him up and dogged him out. And I went outside and watched it, and I seen him throw his chain at a big uh he gonna know too right now. He had a big rope chain with a big emblem on there, and he threw that mug in the bushes, and they was looking for him, and they couldn't find it. And so I went out there and grabbed it, snatched it up. My mama took it from me though and sold it for some work.

SPEAKER_03 4:31

How was you and your mama's actual relationship though? Like, how did y'all interact with each other and how did, you know?

SPEAKER_02 4:39

I was my mama for real. Like, but what I can remember, man, like I was my mama's best friend. Like I was her best friend, like I was, you know what I'm saying? Like, I like just imagine a 16-year-old girl that's pretty, that's a twin, that thinks she's a, you know what I'm saying, but she got a son that she loves, that she, you know what I'm saying, toting around. You know what I'm saying? She's but she she's the it girl though. She's the it girl though, you know what I'm saying? Like she's, you know what I mean, because of her mother, you know what I'm saying, being a it girl, you know what I'm saying? It, you know, it didn't apple done fall too far from the tree. You know what I'm saying? So now my mama and I doing nothing but the same thing that her mama did, you know what I'm saying, with her and showed her. So she's taking me everywhere. Like I'm in, I'm in this crack house, I'm in this crack house, I'm in this crack house, I'm in that crack house, you know what I'm saying? I'm over here, I'm sleeping over here, I'm at this cousin's house, I'm at this cousin's house, you know what I'm saying? Then we back home. You know what I'm saying? Cause we got we had we at we at home, you know what I'm saying? But you know, my mama home go. You know what I'm saying? Just look at the little 16-year-old girls right now. You know what I'm saying? You see them right now, you know what I mean? Like, damn, yeah, my mom was doing that too. Damn. You know what I'm saying? You can't say your mama ain't this or your mom ain't that. Because you're watching the little girls do it. You doing, you you're doing it to this girl. So what makes you think that that dude didn't do it to your mama? You know what I'm saying? Like, that don't even make sense. You know what I'm saying? That's that just don't. My mama know the, my mama not a. Yeah, she is. Yeah, she is. It's the same way that you're doing it to that girl. Somebody did it to that girl to your mama. It's it's it's a cycle, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, that's that's where that go. You know what I'm saying? So she took me everywhere with her and I seen everything. I, you know what I'm saying? Like, I I had to, she had to tell me, you know what I'm saying? You know, that's that's a that's a crack pipe. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? Or that's a that's that's full, that's that's chore for the for the crap. Leave that alone. That's chord for my crack pipe. She had to tell me that, you know what I'm saying? Like, nah, see, I I know what that was, I know what that go to that, I know what that go to that, okay, you know what I'm saying? That's a crack pipe, you know what I'm saying? I I ain't, you know, leave that alone, you know what I'm saying? I'll go over here, mess with this stuff over here, you know? But that's just how I grew up.

SPEAKER_03 7:01

What would you because you know, a lot of us, like when you grow up in these environments, those other entities like the, you know, the junkies or the neighborhood dope man, they they look at you a certain type of way. That's the little homie. That's the that's such and such son. Like, what was your relationship with them type of people? Well, how did they treat you? Just twin son.

SPEAKER_02 7:29

Or little Robertson, twin son of little Robertson. You know what I'm saying? My mama was that, and the dude she was dealing with, he was a gambler, he was that, you know what I'm saying? So all of them that I was around, it was, oh, that's twin son. What's up, twin son? You bad, you was just bad. Look at you, you just come here. You know what I'm saying? And and I just that shit, that's the way that happened. You know what I mean? That's now. Like I'm 41 years old now, and I see him now. And he, what's up, little ready? You know what I'm saying? What's up, twin son? What you doing? Being bad, you still in trouble. You just gotta go never get on. But that's what I go through with them.

SPEAKER_03 8:06

For real. You got any like wisdom that may have stuck to you from one of them? You know, cause just cause you a junkie or anything don't mean you ain't got no wisdom.

SPEAKER_02 8:19

Man, the best wisdom that I got was from my mama. Okay. And that was love unconditionally. Love me no matter what.

SPEAKER_04 8:35

I'm your mama.

SPEAKER_02 8:37

Love me no matter what. Even when it's tough.

SPEAKER_03 8:39

Love me no matter what. Yeah. You also said, little Rob.

unknown 8:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:45

You his son?

SPEAKER_02 8:47

Yeah, that's my stepfather. Okay. Oh, yeah. Stepfather. I had him. I had a real father, biological father. Yeah. That was I was doing with him as right here. He was, he had his little thing. And then I had a mama doing her, twins, yeah, and then I had a stepfather. Stepfather, he actually one of the greatest people in the world. He like, he liked one of the ones that he I looked up to him growing up in the world and in prison. I looked up to him. He um did some time, became a Muslim, moved me, came home, and he's been doing, um, he's been striving to please Allah ever since, you know, and so, but I spent a long time calling him daddy. You know what I'm saying? Like taking the right from my daddy, calling another man daddy, even as a grown man, you know. Like I would call home, I would call my daddy mama, and I would say, come on, call my daddy and tell him, send me some money. And even though it's messed up, that she would be, she wouldn't know who I'm talking about. You know what I'm saying? But just a point of I spent all my life calling this man daddy, up until I turned 39 years old and I came home from prison and looked him in his eyes. And that was the last time I called him daddy. And I've spent my whole life doing that though.

SPEAKER_03 10:24

But when you say you looked him in his eyes, though, what do you mean? You said I looked him in his eyes, and that was the last cut time I called him daddy. Did you look him in his eyes and be like, this would be the last time I'm calling you daddy, or what do you mean?

SPEAKER_02 10:39

Nah, after I, uh, like I said, like my grandma, my grandma, um, my grandma adopted me, well, she didn't adopt me, she took me in. And so she took me, took me in from my mother and him because they couldn't take care of me and my sister. And so, while my mama stopped doing her and stuff, he always still would take my grandmother's money to take care of us. So for all the years, me growing up as a little dude, I said my daddy, just give me money. Oh, while I was in jail, just give me money. Everything, beautiful. And then I get out. And I say, he got a whole lot, everything. And I'm like, What's up, daddy? Come out. And he said, here go twenty dollars. He said, come to the mass judge I said, huh? I said, here go twenty dollars. And come to the magic. Man, I've been calling daddy since I was probably one year old since I've been able to say the word daddy. Like, this is the man I thought was my daddy before I even saw my real dad. Daddy. You know what I'm saying? I'm just keeping it real. You know what I mean? And he did all that. I'm talking about my grandma needed help. He's always there. You know what I'm saying? Like, he was there to take care of his daughter, you know what I'm saying? He was there to take care of his son. And he all that. Shoes, everything. Got out of jail. I'm talking about I I I I was out, he got out in like 2000, I was like 15, and he came and picked me up. And uh he told me about me some Jordans, all black, all black 11. And he was listening to uh what I know now to be uh coup balls uh speeches, speeches to the movement. And I'm listening, I'm like, man, what you listening to? And he said, something you need to listen to. I'll never forget. And then he dropped me off. And then I got locked up like the next year. And then all throughout the years, he was give her money for me. He would take care of it, whatever it is. I need if I called him, he gonna do it. He never told me no. Never, man. I swear to God, by Allah, he never told me no. And when I got out of prison, I swear to God, I hunted him down. Matter of fact, he was in Africa. And I'm like, man, when are you coming back? I'm like, man, I'm out. And like, I'm gonna be back, I'll be back this week. I'm like, all right. So I'm going through it in my mind. I'm knowing when he gets back, I see. He got a dealership. Man, he got e the man, uh, he man among the Muslims. It's been the truth. For real. He the truth. Look, man, look, he's the truth. You read me? A lot of spending watch all the favorites, those who are pure at heart, and this man pure at heart. I know this for a fact. I know what my mama used to do to him. I know what my mama used to do to him. Forget, I know my mama, my mom, my mama thorough. I know what my mama used to do to him. Straight up. Take your money, take your jury, take it, whatever it is, get what I'm talking about. This man pure heart in the world. Never put his hands on my mama or nothing. Took everything, everything she came with. We talking about somebody smoking crack, somebody running around, running around streets. You know what I'm saying? He was too, though. You know? But he was getting some money. He was one of the ones getting the money, had some money. I mean, she take it. You better hide it. And that man was there for me my whole life. And when I got jail, 39 years old, I'm telling you, the man sent me money, man, probably multiple times a year. People would tell you the Albert Sport in prison because the way this man, you know what I'm saying, he'd look out for me, man. You know what I'm saying, for real. And came when I got out, and he came back, came back, and I got in the car. And I said, I'm like, 'cause I was knowing my life about to change. I'm knowing whatever struggles that life would give me any other kind of way. I know it's about to change. All I gotta do is hold on to the rope of the law. That's all I gotta do. All I'm doing. I've been holding on to the rope of the law for the last 11 years in prison. You know what I'm saying? I'm talking about me. Like, stamp something. Not with none of that stuff. Nothing.

SPEAKER_03 15:55

He smirked. Give me twenty dollars. He said, You smirk? He smirked.

SPEAKER_02 16:02

Oh, he's smirk. He smirked. And said this was like on the two. He said, come to the magic rock. I said, I took it. I said, I got a car. And I ain't gonna lie to you, I cracked a chair. I said, No more man now. Cause I knew, I know for the last 21 years, this all I've been having for real. To send me money. So I know who got some money who don't. I ain't no f it gives me out. I know who got some money who don't. I know who can help me and who can't. I know that. Mm-hmm. So the one part, the man I know I'm gonna help can help me. Not. Give me $20. My brother ain't say, like I said, you know what I'm saying? He gave me $4 in the second week. Something for that. You know what I'm saying? You say your brother? No, my real father. My biological father, man. I got it, I was out the same day. Man, my man, and gave me a day a single dime, and I bought weed from him. You know what I'm saying? But my biological father gave me $40 in the second week. He gave me $4 in the second week. Nothing else. I said, okay. So I gave it so. So I'm gone. So I'm in the car, man. I swear to God. I crack a tear, man. And I say, I'm a man. I said, I'm a man. I got it. And I ain't never asked nothing again. But I respect it. I don't I don't feel that he was wrong. I feel that it's the situation of if I take you and throw you in uh uh in the ocean, you better swim. You better fly, Bertie. You better, you better, you, you gotta do what you gotta do. You know what I'm saying? Like I've I've built what I've built, you know what I'm saying? Okay, now you go build what you built. Although you see that I am scaling other people's lives. Uh-huh. Although you see it. Still you go do you and build yours. You build yours. And so I sit back and I say, Well, why God? Why? Why don't he want me a part of his life?

SPEAKER_00 18:42

Why? Why do? I ain't do nothing. He got all these buzzers around on spent on my stock for a lot.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

Allah forgive me for these brothers. You know, but I'm saying these, I'm talking about these different cars. Man, look, what? You know, you can put come on from Kansas City, man. Baby, man, I'm trying to put a dealer tag on each one of these cars. And rah, raw. What are we talking about here, man? What are you doing? You know what I'm saying? Like, you let them do it. You know what I'm saying? What are they talking about? You know what I'm saying? And I'm saying, I'm like, man, so it ain't doing no but fueling me though. It's fueling me though. You know what I'm saying? I can't hate. All right, you right. But I'm watching it. And I'm watching them do it. And so I'm just sitting there. I'm just like, I gotta do it. I gotta do it myself. And as as God would have it, why don't we say that? Oh my God, tell me. He's doing something he ain't supposed to be doing. And he protected me from it. And now I'm understanding at this moment. But he gotta be there. I'm fresh into the world. I ain't got nobody out. I don't got no train friends. Why don't you want me poor? You don't say you know me doing live and lie. Living life. It just come out of nowhere. You don't want me all in your business because you've been going over to Africa.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

What are y'all doing over there? What y'all doing over there? What y'all doing over there?

SPEAKER_02 21:44

I call them a lot. This remains pure. No matter the struggle. I call them all. And that's why when you ask. Are you a believer? And I say, Yeah. And he said he said, Do you pray? And then I I explained to you why. Because I live in worship. I live in prayer. All day. All day. All day. I'm talking about, I see red birds. I got a blue bird that showed up in my face now. A pure white cat ran across in front of me. I woke up early in the morning. I live on the third floor, and a black cat was in my home. And I was standing above Longview Lake with my arms out like this. And I was looking at the ray of the sun beaming down, and a bird flew up off the sky, off the uh water, flew up off of, and I'm looking at it, and he starts shitting. And I'm watching the shit come down as I'm just like this. And as the shit comes down, I move. And I say, damn. I said, damn. I should have let the damn thing hit me. I should let it hit me. And I go to my cousin, I'm like, dang, cuz, I just watched it, cuz now nobody gonna believe that I just sit, just like this, arms out like this, looking up at the sun like this, and a damn bird then flew up off the damn water and then shit it and it hit me. Nobody's gonna believe that. Who believes that? That's the chance of what? They said that's love. What? So as I'm going back and I'm telling her, I do this. And I feel all the wetness on my arm. And I say, God damn. The bird shit is on me. So I live in worship. I don't it it don't look what it's supposed to look like to you, or to you, or to you.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

But I live in worship and Ibadah.

SPEAKER_02 24:24

I live in it and thinker in remembrance of God. I live it.

SPEAKER_00 24:31

You tell me I'm wrong. You tell me add to it, add to it, add to it. Huh? When I'm living it and my actions.

SPEAKER_02 24:47

And then you you may see some, you say, Oh, well, you're doing that.

SPEAKER_00 24:51

But you're doing that. But I'm doing this.

SPEAKER_02 25:00

And all because I realized that God wanted me in the world by myself. Didn't want me to see that stuff. Didn't want you to see that stuff. See that stuff. See what go on over any mother seas, man. Black man. I represent something, something else. I represent my ghetto. I represent my skin. I represent my mama, my brother, my father. I represent my cousin. I represent the neighbor. I represent this black beautiful skin. Hey my black sisters, and my black girls, black girls rock. We don't take advantage of no black girl.

SPEAKER_03 26:04

So what was the symbolism or significance of the the bird shitting on you?

SPEAKER_02 26:10

It's a sign of good luck. It's a rarity. It's a rare moment. It's something that just doesn't happen. You know what I mean? It does happen, and they they equate it to luck. You know?

SPEAKER_03 26:26

Even if you just get shitted on without trying to because I've been shitted on just for it.

SPEAKER_02 26:32

And that's why. And that's if you go, we can Google it right now. Google. Google. If you get shitted on by a bird, it's gonna say that it's it's a sign of good luck and fortune is to come your way. Well, I'm gonna take that then.

SPEAKER_03 26:44

I just never heard that before, so I'm gonna take that. Because I was mad about getting shitted on.

SPEAKER_02 26:49

That's uh man, that's why we're sitting right here right now.

SPEAKER_03 26:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

And it happened when it happened, and that's why we're sitting here right now. They called me in for a job last night, and I had this plan. And when I woke up this morning, I looked at my text and it says, that job has been canceled. I said, Oh. And here I am. I'm serious, and here I am. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_03 27:17

You said one year old is when he came into your life.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:20

So after 38 years of supporting you and doing what he and enduring what he was enduring from your mom and all that, when he could have just left, why does he lose the daddy tag so simply?

SPEAKER_02 27:37

My Andrew said, uh, believe that person when that person showed you who they are the first time. And so I've lived by that statement to the point where I've added it to my morals, my values, and my principles. And then to introduce you to my belief. Whereas God don't make mistakes. And when God shows you something, He shows you it. Certain things has a has a meaning. Certain things mean something. And when a person show you that they don't mean nothing, then they don't mean nothing. If you don't mean nothing, you don't mean nothing. If if if what daddy will would will watch his son enter into life after twenty-one years of enduring oppression suffering. Well daddy, daddy, what a louder son to have to gamble with their life.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

To have to have to lay foot back in the mud. And he can he can take them out.

SPEAKER_02 29:15

What what what daddy not a not a daddy? A daddy? What daddy's gonna allow that to happen to his son? Now a daddy that can't, you know, support himself, you know, or this dad beat or whatever the case may be, you know. That's not a daddy, you know what I'm saying? No daddy is gonna allow their son to, you know, just swim without them at least giving them a life jacket. At least here. If I'm gonna put you in this water and teach you how to swim, here goes a life jacket. You've never been in this water before. It's been a very long time since you've been in this water. This water ain't the same water that it once was. Everything's different. Everything. Nothing's the same. You have to, you're an infant again. You have to learn society, you have to learn how to talk to people, you have to learn how to do everything. A daddy's gonna teach you. And it's not gonna, she's not gonna think about it, it's not gonna be a hesitation, it's not gonna be none of that. A daddy's gonna teach you how to run his business. Because daddy's gonna die one day. And daddy can't take this fortune with him. So daddy got to teach you how to be stern, how not to give it away, how to keep it, how to keep it going, and how to give it to your son.

SPEAKER_03 30:46

That's what a daddy's gonna do. Do you believe there's a did you believe there was a son, Jesus Christ, or whatever? Yeah. He still put him out in the world and he could have like took him from taking that beating that he took, but he's no.

SPEAKER_02 31:03

He was instructed. He was instructed. He is that's the that's the the the the power of of of of the divine of God. That's the you know what I'm saying. He was instructed from from childbirth to to to, you know, he he was he he was born of a miraculous birth. Um then then not just was he born, but God said, okay, you're gonna be the one that speaks, to be the child that speaks in the cradle, right? Okay, but not just that, I'm not gonna have you just speak. I'm gonna make sure that this king finds out that you spoke. And then so I'm gonna make sure that this king, when he finds out that you spoke, that he set out to try to kill you. And so now I'm gonna make sure that the John and people that, you know what I'm saying, come over here because I need them, his family and all them, because they they of a divine source, you know what I'm saying? I've already blessed them around the corner on that way, so I'm gonna go on and flee you to them so I can try to make, I can ain't no trial so I can make you victorious of everybody.

SPEAKER_03 32:13

He was instructed from zero. You don't feel, and you're basically saying once you got out, you was a baby again and you wasn't instructed. No, my whole life has been instructed.

SPEAKER_02 32:25

I've been in my whole life, I feel like, is, it's I've I've been instructed. And and and and and don't get it twisted, like I'm not, I'm not, I'm not saying like I'm I'm a I'm a I'm a messenger or a prophet, like I don't, I don't put myself even close or anything like that, you know what I'm saying? But what I'm saying is that I'm God's child, you know what I'm saying? And from birth, you know what I'm saying, my life's been, you know what I'm saying, my life's been a whore and I'm sick of it, right? You know, and it's all to lead me to right here, right now, you know what I'm saying? Like I'm just I'm not the one, I'm explaining, I'm not the one to to to like cry over, I this happened. I feel like all of it happened. Okay, got that. That's on my that's that okay, that's right there. All right, this right here, okay, this right here. You know what I'm saying? But all right, you know, I I have a mission. I'm not dead. You know what I'm saying? When you someone like that's that's instructed, you understand that that all this in between right here, you know what I'm saying? Like, and you go through right here, it's just what you go through. It's just everything that God put you through to, you know what I'm saying? Because even if I don't reach a level of success in this world, I'll reach a level of success in the hereafter. So I'm gonna succeed, like I'm gonna see, you know what I'm saying? Like I might go through all types of storms or whatever right here, it might look like whatever it's gonna look. You know what I'm saying? This is that's what they call testimonies, you know what I'm saying? Without a test, there's no testimony, you know what I'm saying? Like, how you gonna testify to something if you didn't go through stuff? You know what I'm saying? Like everybody that Moses, Jesus, you know, the Prophet Muhammad's talking about John, uh uh every last one of them went through something, you know what I'm saying? They went through and they always really show them by their family. They always pushed off, they all that's what that's what that's what that is, you know what I'm saying? And so when you instruct it, you know what I'm saying, like it's a journey. It's a what uh uh Nestie say it's a marathon. Like it's not it might not be like this right now. You know what I'm saying? I tell I keep telling people, man, I'm two years into life. You know what I'm saying? Like, I man, look, I have so much life, you know what I'm saying? Like, I'm I'm not gonna do it the right way, the wrong way, I'm gonna do it the way that God, you know what I'm saying? Tell me to do it. I want me to go through it. So I'm instructed.

SPEAKER_03 35:09

Well, I want to touch on your uh, because you didn't find out about what at what age did you find out he wasn't your real daddy? Early.

SPEAKER_02 35:19

Like, early, like I found out early. Like I knew I grew up calling two two men daddy, you know what I'm saying? Okay. I grew up calling my daddy daddy and him daddy, you know what I'm saying? And it never was awkward, you know what I'm saying? Like, like it never, but but I I could like now looking back, you know what I'm saying? Like I watch, like uh in in in '96 or whatever, '97, I for I forget the year, but my father's house got blown down. You know what I'm saying? Got torched, and my two little brothers died, and my stepmother survived. You know, I mean she died too. And it was, it was like one of the most tragic things that I had to experience as a kid. You know what I'm saying? Like I woke up in the morning and my grandmother like looked down the street, right? And I looked down the street and I and I seen every, I seen him, I seen it on fire, right? And when I finally seen my daddy, I just remember looking at my biological father. I just remember looking at him and like, damn, you lost your family. Like, you lost your family. It's like, damn. I was getting up every day and I was watching you take care of another woman and her kids while I was going to the courthouse to try to get the rights took away from my mama, from my grandma to get the rights. But I'm watching you raise and then now they dig. And now I'm looking at you.

SPEAKER_00 37:11

And I'm like, damn.

SPEAKER_02 37:16

I'm still here. You feel like you done lost everybody. I'm still here. And I said that. I looked at him and said, I'm still here. And so he was okay with me calling another man daddy. Because he was being daddy to some other kid. And it never became awkward until I came home. But it wasn't because of him. It was because of me. He never cared. He let his mama take care of his mama and his daddy.

SPEAKER_03 38:19

My papa, my dad. You remember his response when you said that to him? I'm still here. He just looked at me.

SPEAKER_02 38:30

He just looked at me. Same way you look at me now. What a blank look. That's been forever, man. Forever. Forever, forever. Like forever. Like I came home. I came home. I sit up in uh me and my daddy. We uh my biological father. Just kept getting tort. Kept getting tort. And I'm like, hey man, chill out, man. Like, he's tripping. I'm going over my grandma's house. This is his mama's house. He lived right down the street. But he suffered from a mental health. He's epileptic and he suffered from mental health. I know. Watching, you have to tell. You've gotten, you've gotten older, you've uh washed up. You're hating life. You know what I mean? Your chick took all your stuff, sold your stuff when you went to prison. And now you just, you got a house, but you just here. You don't go nowhere, you don't leave the block, you don't do nothing, you don't have a car, you do nothing that you used to do. Only thing you do is take your medication, get up, go to your mama's house, eat eat breakfast, listen to her, gospel with her, and then go back to your house.

SPEAKER_04 40:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:08

All right. Now I'm in a picture. Now I look at my grandmother's my mama. So now I'm in a picture. And so I'm going through this with her. He's coming up here, you know, why you here? Why you there? Why you here? Why you there? What? What are you talking about? Quit laying on the couch. Man, what? I'm 40 years old. What are you talking about, dude? Quit laying on the couch. So now I'm starting to see the. And he said, man, think I'm a little Ray. He said, man, it's true. Think I'm a little Ray. And so he's not knowing, like my grandma, you know, my grandma, my baby, you know. Well, my grandma sit here and drinking hot life all day. You know what I'm saying? You know, so you know, we know what hot life is gonna do to you. You know what I'm saying? So I'm like, hey, man.

SPEAKER_00 40:58

The man go out here and try to fight me.

SPEAKER_02 41:03

He said, Narry, put your hands up in your daddy. I'm telling my man, go on. He said, I'll fight me. Swing on me.

SPEAKER_00 41:11

I'm like, hey, man.

SPEAKER_02 41:13

So I pop him in his rug. I've been working out. So I pop man, swing on me, dude. The man runs to his house. Grab a shotgun. Come run out the porch. Point a shotgun at me.

SPEAKER_00 41:33

I stop. I wanna look at this gun, man. I ain't did nothing to you, man. You got people telling me you hate me because what?

SPEAKER_02 41:48

Because I'm little, right? They tell telling you tell me telling me I remind them of you. And you say, you jealous of me? What? This is my this is my daddy, my biological father. You what? You jealous of me, dude? You serious? And now you point a gun at me? You serious?

SPEAKER_00 42:12

So I stop. I look at the gun.

SPEAKER_02 42:17

I drive off. So now, me, you know, I'm Lil Ray, right? Okay. So this is how y'all wanna play me. Alright. So what I do is I wait like five days. See, now y'all know I've been in jail. All I do is think. Jail turn you to a predator or a prey. One or the other. So I sit back. Stalk. Then let them see me. Wait till Memorial Day. Rolled up, recorded it, and threw eggs at him. And told him you never point no gun in my face. She never told me like that. She never do that. And drove off. Do you know they call the police on me, man, and I had to pay $200 for throwing eggs at him, and this man pointed a gun in my face.

SPEAKER_00 43:27

I could just way worse.

SPEAKER_02 43:31

Way worse. You already showed me you're not my daddy. You already showed me you don't give a fuck. You already showed me that.

SPEAKER_00 43:44

And then now, you point a gun at me? Why I do to you? Cause I look like you.

SPEAKER_02 43:54

Cause I look like you, cause I ain't begging you. Cause I ain't living on trying to live on your floor, I ain't trying to live on your Are you serious? But I had to go through that.

SPEAKER_03 44:15

Why are you still privileging him with that title though? Even I'm talking about from when the house burned down and all that and you said I'm still here. And he's like blank to it.

SPEAKER_02 44:32

In real life. Man, my grandma always taught me. She said love your mama and your daddy. And the two things. Probably the man is crazy. Probably the only two things that I've probably learned from my mama and my daddy is how to love unconditionally. That's it. The only thing I probably can say that my mom and my daddy has ever taught me. And that's crazy. Wait a minute. That's crazy. That's crazy. That's for real though. That's for real though. Because. Yeah, I've been on, yeah. I've been on my own for real. You know, we're talking about mom and daddy. Like my grandma took care of me, you know? Like, well, that's not, you know what I'm saying? But my grandma took care of me today damn for good care of me. I'm a grandma's baby because of it. You know what I'm saying? But but I'm a mama's boy and I'm a daddy's son. I love my mom and my daddy. Wow. You know what I'm saying? And I know for I can they ain't taught me nothing. You know what I'm saying? But how to love unconditionally. And I think that's why I love so hard. I think for real, for real, that is. That's why I love so hard. I love hard. I love hard. I love hard. I love what I'm my mind, what I'm my body, what I'm my strength. Cause I love thinking you're gonna leave me. So if I love you, I'ma love you. I love, I love hard. You know? And that's what they tell me. Cause I love them to death, right now. Like you said, you know what I'm saying? I don't call them Ray, I call them Daddy. I don't call my mama Jen or twin, I call her mama to this day. And my mama crazy. And my daddy crazy, both of them right now. Like for real. But that's because I understand mental health.

SPEAKER_03 46:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:31

Yeah. But I what they taught me, that's crazy. I ain't never thought about that. That's crazy. Like, the only thing they didn't taught me was true was true love. Love unconditional. Cause my grandma always said, love your mama and your daddy. No matter what they do, that's your mama and your show daddy. That's your mom and your daddy.

SPEAKER_03 46:53

Early gateway to forgiveness. Because obviously, if you love somebody unconditionally, you damn near gotta forgive them for just about that.

SPEAKER_02 47:03

It's not even forgiving because I don't. I don't forget them, man. Like, I don't forget. I don't forgive them. Like, I don't forget, I owe it. You know what I'm saying? I think it's just love is just something that you just love with your entirety. When you love someone, you just, I just love them. Like you just love with your whole everything. Like it ain't even really, it's unconditional. It ain't, it's, it's not even, it's not even, it's like it's not even them. It's just like it's them. You just in love with them. You just, I just love this person. I just, it's natural. I can't help it as much as I want to. Like, I just love them. Like, as much all the shit I talk, like I talk shit, man. You know, but that's because they ain't shit. But I love them to a death. Like, I just love them. And I think that they, for real, they perfect in their own self, you know? Cause they perfectly who they are. You know what I'm saying? Just that they didn't love me. And so, in return, it's taught me incredible love. Cause I love hard. I don't want it to go. Come here.

unknown 48:19

I don't want it to go.

SPEAKER_03 48:20

And it always leaves. Yeah. Are you saying you don't want them to go? Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_02 48:27

Yeah, nah, just the love. Just. Yeah. That's why I love hard, because I don't want it to leave. I never wanted to leave. So I love it hard, but it always leaves. My mama always leave. She always leave.

SPEAKER_03 48:43

And you said you you by yourself, but that that shit right there is like that. You don't want that feeling of loneliness. But while you still feel alone. So you holding on to that type of stuff to make you not feel so alone at times. So, but then again, you say you don't forgive them. So what is that you holding on? Why are you holding on to unforgiveness?

SPEAKER_02 49:07

Because I don't think you can forgive. Like, it's not even forgive. Like, what is we forgiving? Like, you this when something is is ongoing and consistent and it's a pattern, it's habitual, and it's it's not stopping, it's not gonna stop. Well my what are we forgiving? I'm not just gonna happen. Yeah, what is we forgiving? I'm not forgiving. Like, I don't forgive you. Like, just stop. I love you. Like, I don't forgive you, please. Like, no, it's it's wrong. It's wrong, you're wrong. You know what I'm saying? Let's figure this out another way. That's you know what I'm saying? But I don't know, I don't forgive you. I don't forgive you, you shouldn't did it. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's that's like re-re that's the people repenting and asking God for forgiveness. Repent and forgiveness is two different things. You know what I'm saying? To repent for something is to repent from it and don't do it again. That's when that's when God forgives you. So I don't know, you keep, and then oh God, please forgive me. Then you backdoor, and then God, please forgive me. You think you think God's stupid? You think God, you think God don't know your heart? God knows why you see him asking for forgiveness. He knows that you're gonna go right back and do whatever it is that you was just doing. Why? Because he's instructed you to go do all that. You know what I'm saying? So, like, either repent for it or you keep on doing make no fool of God. You making a fool of yourself.

SPEAKER_03 50:39

So you don't believe in free will. Of course. Of course you do, or you don't.

SPEAKER_02 50:44

Yeah, of course. No, God has given you the free will to be able to do whatever it is you want to do. That's what free will is.

SPEAKER_03 50:50

So you do make decisions that he didn't plan. Make decisions that he didn't plan? He didn't plan out.

SPEAKER_02 50:56

But see, you can't, you can't, you the decisions you make are the decisions that God put it before you because our laws was written before we was born, right? Because now all right, this is a question that's either faith, is, is, it's, it's, it's, it's really dealing with a person's belief. You know what I'm saying? Regardless, you know, it's it's it's it's your truth, right? This is one of them, it's not a universal truth, it's your truth. You know what I mean? Because, like, for you to say our lives was written before we was born, right? And everything is preordained, then every decision you make. You know what I'm saying? What? That's saying that God put it already, put it on your heart for you to make, and he gave you the free will to be able to choose whether to go that way or whether to go that way. And that's why I said, like, the stuff that I go through, it's like, okay, just God just put me through it. You know what I'm saying? Like, this ain't, I I'm I'm not, I'm not dead. I ain't dead. You know what I'm saying? I ain't dead. You know what I'm saying? Dead is final. You know what I'm saying? That's what people say, I died. No, you didn't. Death is final. Final. There's no coming back from that. There's no doctors, and the doctors are not God. Sorry. Don't tell me that you, I died, and I seen this, and I can't. No, you didn't. No, you didn't. You know what I'm saying? You were going through the emotion and God saved you. God saved your life. You didn't die. Death is final. So until it's final, then I'm living out the will of God. You know what I'm saying? And of course, I have the free will. I have the free will to be able to make the decision, do whatever I want to do. And the free will equates to like the creatures. That's why we we're calling it a free will. We're calling it a while we're we got the free will is because we're the best of God's creatures. You know what I'm saying? That that mice can't get up to a wallet and clap it. And you know what I'm saying? He can't even got the free will to do that. You know what I'm saying? But God could have installed that in them though. You know what I'm saying? That bird right there, that bird that got, you know what I'm saying? You don't know how that bird flying. You know what I'm saying? But that's the that's the free will that God gave it, you know what I'm saying, to create the the whole universe and and for what it is. So yeah, like I just I make, I have, I, I, I believe in free will. You know what I'm saying? I believe in preordainment, you know what I'm saying? I have the ability, free will to do whatever I want to do, you know? You know what I'm saying? And that's why I say people, but in this word, you know, a lot of people tell you, well, Ray's crazy because I tell you, God is the cause of it all, He caused the chaos. What are you talking about? Now you can come up with anything you want to tell me, but I'm telling you, God caused it all. I can tell you a moment in almost every religion that nobody denies what God causes all. And they can say it's the Big Bang Theory, they can say it's the this theory, they can say it's this theory, they can say it's this theory, but in real life, God caused the confusion. God made everybody, you know, not understand each other. Because when everybody was understanding each other, we tried to build a tower to see what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_03 54:03

You know, so I want to uh I'm gonna come back to what your father said to you, but I also wanted, you said, and uh, would you call yourself a crack baby? You was a crack baby?

SPEAKER_02 54:18

Yeah, well, you know what, you know what? I'm gonna I'm gonna say something like a lot of us 80 babies, especially in late 80s, call ourselves crack babies, right? A lot of us. But I ain't gonna say it's go to the 90s, right? What I'm gonna say they was on primos and shit. So did that make me a crackbag? Nigga, crack is in it.

SPEAKER_03 54:46

Crackback. Crack baby. So uh what do you think? Because you you you seem like a well-studied man, and I don't know if you dove into that at all, but I'm like, what do you think the effects of being in crack baby is?

SPEAKER_02 55:04

ADHD. Um that's to me, that's the most common, the most common disorder that is attached to the to the mid-archine, right? To the to that to that demographic. I think ADHD, attention deficit, hyper disorder, and um, I think that a lot of us are imbalanced, and that's what it is. And that's something that has drove a lot of us to a lot do a lot of different things because we're speed, we're speed babies. It's nonstop. Can't sit down, gotta move around, gotta do this, gotta do that. And if you don't understand it, then we're considered bad or we're considered whatever. You know what I'm saying? But it's due to the chemically imbalance of us. It's due to it, but see, it's not just crack, right? Alcohol, marijuana, anything that is entered the body while the child is in the body can alter the child. Can't invite it. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:30

In here.

SPEAKER_02 56:31

Yeah, you know what I'm saying? And so it's it's almost, you know, inevitable for the child not to come out, you know what I'm saying, 100% pure if you've been drinking and getting high, and you know what I'm saying, not, you know what I'm saying, you know what I mean? And so we grow, that's that's that's more the effect that I believe that it, the the mental health part that I believe that it have on us, is that for real. A lot of us suffer from that.

SPEAKER_03 56:57

When that thing happened with your father, right? The the house burning down and your siblings, and it would do was that the uh what age was that at? Was that at a super young age? Yeah, no, I was probably about nine, ten. So all of this happened before the age of 16 when you got locked up. So hearing all that, the, you know, the crack baby and all that, the environment you grew up in, and to hear your daddy say something like, I mean, the house burning down first, and then to hear your daddy say something like that to you, or respond in the way that he did. Maybe he didn't say nothing, but to respond in the way he did. What do you think had that effect on this person who went to prison at 16?

SPEAKER_02 57:46

Nobody I I was a kid that I I got uh I put scissors around my neck when I was uh I was in like the third grade and I tried to kill myself because my mama or daddy didn't want me. And they sent me to uh swallow parkway and they tried to give me some pill and my grandma said you're not taking no pills, you never take no pills, ain't no wrong with you, you alright? And I'm like I And from there I never in that moment I never I never really cared. I didn't care, like it was will this give me some attention? Alright, maybe if I do this alright, maybe if I do this, maybe if I run away. People don't realize I ran away when I was 13 years old. She took off looking for my mama. Like I'm on a bus. This is when the bus got the way out of the ran view. I'm on the bus. And I'm where my mama at? I seen a lady that knew my mom. She knew me. She said, boy, I said, where my mama at? She's like, boy, I don't know. She's 36 over Norton over there. I'm like, all right. I ended up going to my cousin's house. Crazy story. I ended up going to my cousin's house. We ended up going to a party. I'm homeless though. I ran away. I left my grandma though. I ran away.

SPEAKER_03 59:49

13, right?

SPEAKER_02 59:49

Yep, 13 years old. Go out here with my cousin. Boom. I ended up going to the house party. I used to dance real good. Very good. Very, very good. I'm not lying. Nah, I was good. And so, nah, for real. I was good, man. And so uh, nah for real. I used to uh DW them, all them, you know what I'm saying? Like they was dope. You know what I'm saying? I was dope too. But go out here, sit with a young lady. I go, her mama and her mama worked it overnight. So I end up kind of like, let me just leave over here. She stayed right around the corner from my brother's house. I'm here about Ruskin. So I sleep over around and stuff, whatever the case may be. Now I gotta get up about five in the morning. So I get up and go to my brother's house. Now, I just ran away. So I don't know that they they know. So I tell my little brother, I'm like, man, don't tell your mama, but I just ran away, bro. You know what I'm saying? Like, I ain't going back, you know what I'm saying? Like, I'm looking for my mama. Like, I'm I'll find my mama. So he's like, all right, whatever. So it's, but it's a house full of people. You know what I'm saying? It's a it's a it's some some some girls with some names out here too. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So I'm out here, my sister, and my sister my age, you know what I'm saying? So it's all her little friends, and we out here, you know what I'm saying? I'm yeah. Next time, knock on her door. Come out, look. It's my daddy. This the moment that that I think probably shaped me and his relationship. It's some bad little females in here. He come in, he says, What you doing? I look. I'm like, nah. He like, mama know you out here? My grandma. I'm like, oh he's like, then what you doing out here? I'm like, I called the bus out here. So he like, come on. So I grabbed my stuff, and as I walk to the door, he behind me. The man kicked me on my back out the door. I turned around and flexed on him. And he said, Don't you never put your hands up? And I just looked at him. And I just put my head down. And I remember looking when I as I'm looking at him, one of the chicks, the team, I swear to God, I'm looking at her, she look at me like, and I just put my head down, get in the car. But I think him putting his feet on me, probably shape me in the streets a little bit. I think, I think him, I think he'll put his feet on me, yeah. Yeah. I never forget that. I never forget that. I think that was the moment where I didn't lose respect. That was my father, my daddy, but he listened. That's when he listened to me.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:01

So I I this ain't verbate, I'm gonna paraphrase him. I heard you say on right in the nick of time. You made you alluded to like you can't blame those people for how you are, kind of. Yeah, you you can't put the whole blame on them and you you ain't gotta blame them, but they did have an effect on how you are. You're not more powerful than any human being when it comes to your mind state. And it affected the way you are. And you throughout this story, you just said how that foot affected you. So it did affect you.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:39

It affected me, but I don't, I don't, I don't blame them because it's what God put me through in that moment. You know what I mean? It's just when you like I like I say, I like I'm the statue that all the birds shit on. You know what I'm saying? And and and I when I tell people that, they are you crazy, but they don't know what it means to me. You know what I'm saying? They don't know what they don't know what it means to me when I say I'm the rose. I'm not just saying I'm a beautiful rose. I'm a beautiful rose with thorns. I got thorns on me. It's things that happen to me. Like I told you, the point is, I said, here's here, this, this, all these different, you know what I'm saying, things. It's just what God has instructed for me to go through. And so I don't blame you. Okay, I don't blame you. I'll blame you for blame for, you know, you know not. Give them what they know not. You know not. You know not what you do, you know what you do. But okay. But okay. And that's how you treat everybody.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:50

You know what I'm saying? And I had to, I had to learn that. You know, what what my childhood trauma, how it affected me was it made me where, it made me to the point where I was alone there. Like I would ask my grandma, why I don't got no friends. If everybody right here, people know my name, Lil'Ray, Horatio Hill. They know I went to school. I was popular too, and it's crazy. Because I had no friends. I ain't never had nobody come spin out in my house. I ain't had no friend, nobody wanna be my friend. And so it made me a loner and all the stuff. They would just make me just, man. So I just wanna do what I want to do. And I don't I don't blame them. These people, they messed up too. They go, they know what they got going through what they going through, too. What they got, why, why he did that? Why, why did that was on his mind to do that? You know what I'm saying? But but he did it. You know what I'm saying? Now I ain't do nothing. To him. You know what I'm saying? So in that moment, I didn't do nothing to him. So I forgave him right there. I didn't punch you in your mouth kicking on me. You know what I'm saying? So that was a forgiveness because I didn't punch him. That was my forgiveness. You know what I'm saying? Right there. But I forget. I ain't got you. I still talking about it right now. You know what I'm saying? As I'm talking, I'm thinking about it. This is this. You know what I'm saying? And like I said, now from I can tell you from childhood on up to I'm 39 years old, man. Well, you come out here. You go and watch up, man. I've been, I'm just sitting here squatting, man, three pounds, man. Like, you think you're gonna do something to me, dude? Is you crazy, man? And all I'm doing, man, coming around, man, just trying to love my family. Are you serious? And I ain't did nothing to you, man. And you just hating on me, man. Is you serious? Oh man, watch out, man. But this is what someone, it's habitual. I've been dogging my son all his goddamn life.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:02

See, this is how I know how to love him. This is how you can do it. This is how I know how to love him.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:15

Now it's on me. Am I gonna let you love me like that? Or am I not? That's on me. You know what I'm saying? That's on me. If I'm a if I'm a kid, if I'ma keep letting you do that to me, or not, because I know you're gonna keep doing. I just know you're gonna keep doing. Ain't gonna stop. My mama just looked me in my eyes, man, told me, man, you know your mama. Man, I'm not playing, man. Listen to me, man. My mother. A few weeks ago, just looked me in my eyes and said, You know your mama. I looked at him. You right? I do. And then the next bro, I'm your mama. Yes, you are. I'm still at fire pro. My mama took my 22-inch rings, man. And then when I call my mama asked my mama, man, I paid man style now for these bills, man. I ain't had none trash, man. I call my mama just, my mama will. I saw you sold. Man, I'm 30. My mom been doing this. I had a fat ass hairbone when I was a kid. My mama took that. Straight up. Straight up. Come on, man. She took that. Then I said, mom, what's my hairbone at? Go? Man, I had to, man, listen to me. The two pump? Man, I had, I swear I did. I had a fat hairbone, man. It was about this big. I'm talking about man, it laid on my been out with school thought. Man, listen to me, man. I had my one little go right here with the fat hair bone. Man, woke up and it was gone. Mm-hmm. I said, where'm my man? I ain't seen my mom for two weeks. When I finally seen him, Mom, where my chain at? Them niggas got it out on the street. What'd you tell the fool? I said, trim. For real mama.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:36

How much a gold hair phone costs?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:38

Man, listen to me. I don't even know. I I got it off of a lick. Yeah, it was. Got you, got you, got you, got you. Got you. So it wasn't really even yours. It was mine. See, you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:53

See, yeah, it was, yeah. Betty, I I'm with you. I'm with you. Don't sit, play the blame game and all of that, because you still gotta be able to move. But these people still have to take accountability. They don't have to do nothing, but you know what I'm saying? They gotta be held accountable. You know, but if they don't want to take it, I get it. But in your mind for me, I still gotta, I can't give them no pass in my mind. No, you you played a part into why I'm like I am, but I'm not gonna sit up and out out letting blame you and all of that. Yeah, not that. But you did. You know what I'm saying? That's all I'm saying. Like to take the you're you are the reason why I you are part of the reason.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:46

If I give, if I give, if I give them that credit, then I'll be taken from God. I'm being honest with you. If I give them, if I give, if I give the devil, negative energy, people that done me wrong, any type of credit, emotions, anything. I'm taking away from God, brother. Like the reason why, I'm gonna tell you why. Reason why Saga be taken away from God is because number one, he caused it. But it's number two, bro. I don't want nobody handle. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. You ain't nothing. But you did nothing. You you ain't did nothing. What you mean what you say what?

unknown 1:11:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:49

Why you tell? Cuz I'm talking to a woman. I can this what you did, but you ain't did nothing. You know what I'm saying? You did absolutely nothing. You know what I'm saying? I'm talking about my day, everything, you know what I'm saying? But I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm solid in who I am thanks to what God put me through, sir.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:14

One of my favorite people in the Bible, Joseph, still acknowledge that they did it. You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good. So that don't take the power away from God. Yeah. Still acknowledging you did what you did, though. But you ain't stopped this, you know what I mean? No. But all with all of that said, what how did that make you towards other people in the streets? Before 16, how did that make you towards other people? Well, do you feel like any look in hindsight, do you feel like any of this was coming out on them?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:56

Nothing I've been through. Or nothing that I had gone through made me hate nobody. Nothing that I went through made me be violent.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:13

Nothing that I went through.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:18

What made me become violent is because I wanted some money. I wanted my own money. At that age, I I I can't I don't gonna go get no job. I wanted some money. I wanted I wanted some shoes. I wanted them wheels, some datings back in my ear. Mm-hmm, spokes. I wanted them datings. And it wasn't nothing that they put me through, nothing that I went through that made me want that stuff. I wanted that stuff. You know what I'm saying? I wanted it for myself. And so I went out and I caused all types of problems to people. Not because I hated them, or he didn't have nothing to do with them. I wanted the money. The news said when I was 16 years old, when they put me on the news then, they got on news and said, all he wants is the money. Just give him the money. That's it. Don't tussle with him, don't do nothing. And so it wasn't, it and it wasn't because I was broke. I come from a good family for real. My grandmother, my father, my grandfather, you know, he was a hard working man, you know. Like, ain't no, no one, no, no. Struggles. Yes. And not in that house. Yeah. Not not in my not in that house. You know, these are the things that I want. You know what I'm saying? I went, I went, these are dudes I want to hang out with. I ain't want to hang out with the football players at Westport. I ain't want to hang out with the with the basketball players at Purcell. I ain't wanna hang out. They ain't like me. You know what I'm saying? I hang out with the dudes in my neighborhood, my streets, you know what I'm saying? Now they don't even got it at home like I got it at home. You know what I'm saying? So we, like I said, run around, playing games, running around, you know what I'm saying, and and doing what we wanted to do. You know what I'm saying? Now, now, matter of fact, for real, let's say that my whole trajectory of my life is just made me, you know what I'm saying, do what I did to people, you know? And because I did that to them people, is the reason for new shoes for Ray Ray. It's the reason why I robbed so many people, man. Like, no, listen to me. You know, the most dangerous thing is happening in my life right now. And you say what that means is, man, I've robbed so many people that I don't even know who I've robbed.

unknown 1:16:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:11

Yeah. Do you know how many people come in my face and shake my hand and tell me new shoes for Ray Ray? And I, in my mind, this could be somebody that I've robbed. And then people, I don't, you know what I'm saying, you don't marry me? Uh-oh, well, I know you're from. Well, well. And you don't, he don't even know. Then my mind, I'm trying, my mind always wins. He not even there. I tell about his body structure, the way he's standing. He's not even fearful of war, nothing. He don't know in my mind, I done went straight to war though. Man, this nigga be somebody that I done did something, man. Who is this, man? And then I'm then like, okay, cool. Okay, cool. This is how I'm being a clip, so hostile environment don't make no sense. You know what I'm saying? Like for real, man. People don't even understand it. You know what I'm saying? I'm in this mug, like, yeah, man, who's dude? Who's dude? Who is dude? Who is he? Oh, that's just where I'm from. All right, yeah. But all right, you know, every day, man. Every day. I don't know who none of these people, none of, yeah, alright, right on, bro. They don't know though. I'm on guard. I'm tested up. Man, I don't know if I gotta still defend myself or not. I don't know. You know what I'm saying? I've been locked up all my life. You know what I'm saying? We robbed a lot of people. You know what I'm saying? I don't have a one pro we robbed a lot of people. You know what I'm saying? The news got had red dots are just all over the map. There's a bunch of red dots, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:54

You know what I'm saying? And so today, me walking down, say, who, man, I did something, dude. They only been in, y'all been in so many prisons. So now I'm seeing people that I've been in prison with, now I'm like, damn, did what's God's stand him? I think what God's saying. I swear to God, I think that's him. That's rough. No, people don't know this. What I go through every day, I only been in work for two years, man. This is what I go through every single day. And then I done built the new shoes for Ray Ray. So now it's even more of my anxieties up. But the crazy part is, this like I tell it, I don't know who I told this to, but the same way those those uh uh uh military veterans, the ones that suffer from PTSD, same way they work in prisons because it's a hostile environment, whatever, that's how I operate. I I flourish in those environments. Where it's it's like I'm constantly playing with my anxiety, constantly playing with my vote. But they don't know though. I'm really, man, dude, I boy, boy, you know what I'm saying? And I don't take no measure, nothing. None of that. Just to keep me just where I'm on point. Where I okay. Who is it? I don't know. And that's how I live today.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:28

Can you remember your first the first one you committed the robbery? First okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:34

I don't think it's the first robbery. Is it the first robbery? No, it's not the first robbery. Okay, no matter fact. It's the first robbery. Is this the first robbery? That's wild. That's crazy. Okay. The first robbery. No, no, I can't think. I don't know if it's I don't know if it's the first one, but in village green, in village green, and village green apartments, it was uh it was me, my cousin. He's serving life right now. Um he's serving life for um my father's um house being burned down, and the two little brothers that uh my two little brothers had died, my stepmother, my cousin is serving life for that right now. And so he had got out. He had got out after serving 15 years for a murder. He had got out. And now I'm in the street. I knew he was my cousin and everything. Now I'm in the streets. And I don't got no money, and I'm not knowing he smoked crap. I'm not knowing he smoked crap. Alright, and so it's early in the morning, it's me, him, and my partner. My partner just got killed probably about a few months ago. And he like, what y'all doing? Like, nothing. Like, man, I got late. He's nigga around here. I've been buying dope from him all night. They got the bag. I'm like, what? Like, they got the bag. I'm like, how much more? He like, man, look, they got the money, man. It's rolling around there. It's Billy Graham. It's back and it's Billy Gray, bro. So I'm like, all right. I'm like, all right, baby. He got a 22 revolve. He got a 22 revolve. So he got some, he got some uh uh uh uh what's the what's the cord thing that you plug into the phone, into the wall?

SPEAKER_03 1:22:00

Charger?

SPEAKER_02 1:22:01

No, the stenching cord. He got the cord, he got, okay, he got, he got a 22 revolver, he got, he got the stenching cord, and and he got and he got a damn, you know, the little uh the uh the things you cut weeds.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:20

Are you talking about from a regular house phone that plug into the must forgot what that's called?

SPEAKER_02 1:22:27

Yeah. It got one of them. I think it's a stitch five for sure, but it got a weed whacker. Yeah, and he got a weed whacker. Yeah. Got a weed whacker. So we pull up, it's late night, whatever the case may be. We pull up, he knocked on the door. Me and my partner on the size, though. I'm saying, wasn't no thing about it, wasn't know this how we gonna do this. Oh, he's already been in here, so he knows what's in here. You know what I'm saying? So, really, for real, we wouldn't even think about that for real. We was just, come on. Like he pulled up, he holl cracked for real. He like, come on, y'all. We went. And it's this is really round, yeah. Man, we go in here, we just walk in. He got, he got, he got the uh, he holding the uh, he holding the uh the the uh the weed thing, he holding that, he got the got his gun, and he got the uh the uh the other little shit on him. We ain't got nothing. We just going in here. So it's a door and it's a chick, a smoker chick, which one dude though. He the nigga with it. So he go in here, so we just standing. So I'm really like, shit, okay, what's going on? You know what I'm saying? Like, what's happening? You know what I'm saying? So he mowed around, he starts talking shit to the door. He starts talking shit to the door. So he mowed around, move around, and they know, bam! He slammed with the, uh hit him with the uh the wave wire, the wave wire, slam right across his head. Boom. He like, get him. See, so we got him, wrapped him up, you know what I'm saying? So we hold him. To where he, Terry, he going through all his pockets, he going through everything, he doing everything, you know what I'm saying? So he like, where the where the shit at? Where the shit at? So, dude, like, I ain't got it, woo, whatever the case may be. See, so he like, fuck. So we pick him up, we take him to the tub, put him in the tub, tie him up in the tub, and we take everything out of the house. That was my first rivalry.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:40

Well, one of my first rivers. And with all you got up out of there, your adrenaline is like. He probably gave us probably about a hundred dollars. He didn't risk your life for a hundred dollars. But to split.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:03

He probably gave me, probably hundreds and gave my little partner hundred lives. Yeah. And he whooped on and everything, and we did all that. Yeah. That was one of my first. And this is your cousin that this is my cousin that is he's doing life right now for whatever they say happened to my uh two little brothers and my stepmother.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:31

Yeah. When you found out that was him, how'd that make you?

SPEAKER_02 1:25:37

And what y'all relationship became? I wish I didn't do it. I wish I I wish he didn't do it. I wish I could've did it. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:48

All right, um go from not planning stuff as far as the robbery that you just did with your cousin to be a what you said. Y'all was on multiple jewelry thing? Y'all was on a jewelry raid? No, no, we was on just robbing people. Now, didn't you say y'all um right in the nick of time, y'all. We robbed a jewelry store.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:14

We we was just robbing people, robbing everything moving, everything in sight, um, robbing everything.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:23

So did these things, did you start planning those? No, we just would just go in there.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:29

We would just walk to the plaza on phone 45th and forest over there. And so we would sell dope over there, and then we trick that off, fall off, walk to the plaza, rob everything in the plaza, come back, buy some more dope, be cool for a little bit, trick that off, walk back over there, rob everything over there, and do the same thing over and over again. And that's what they got y'all for, got you for it, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:27:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:05

Tough.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:06

Was it a particular store they got you for? No. Or like the last or they had been watching y'all for the stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:13

They've been watching it was it was like I told you on the news, like they just had a map. Let's get rid of it. Red dots. Stop, top, top, stop. But the the the the name that that that they said that we robbed was was the hunts. I think that was like in the paper. And I don't know if it's the the Chiefs lady people or not, but it's it's in the newspaper. It's in the newspaper. You know what I'm saying? And I've never seen them at court or nothing like that. You know what I mean? Um, I don't think that I I don't know. You know what I'm saying? I just know that it was in the, it said hunts in the in the newspaper. So I think that's what made it a big deal, you know what I mean, other than it being the plaza, you know what I'm saying? Saying is they were saying like the people that was involved.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:03

So I don't know. You did your time, so I'm assuming you can go into the story if you can't. Cool. But like what is it to go into a jury store and write or the one that stood out for them? Like how you what's the story of going in there?

SPEAKER_02 1:28:20

Nah, um, it wasn't really, it was just, it wasn't really a jury store. It was just shit, the places. It was just shit going there, taking what we can take, um, getting it off. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's just nothing was ever planned. Like, I can't even remember just one a jury store. You know what I'm saying? Like, in my situation, it was everything and everybody. It was every place we could go in. It was whatever we could burglarize, it was all of that.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:59

So when y'all finally get caught, what is that day? Like, what is what are you doing in that day? Uh how I got caught.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:10

This is how I got caught. That's crazy. How I got caught was we knew it. The white boy that was with us, his little brother, got caught trying to use one of the credit cards at the gas, I mean at the uh grocery store. And so they picked him up. And so when they picked him up, they dropped him off. They dropped him off. And so then there came a guy, his big brother, the dude that was actually with us. Alright. So he went and he told. I tell my partner, I say, he telling. I said, he telling. I knew he telling. I said, they don't do that like that. He telling. My partner like, nah, nah, I'm like, man, you tell. I'm not lying. They'll tell you we was on him. I was on him. He's telling. I'm telling you, he telling. They begged me. Nah, he's not telling. Swear to God, he's telling. And then next thing you know, we were all getting picked up. They kicked in my cousin's house. Because they don't think I know that they told on me too. I'm sitting in the house after the white boy done told. I'm sitting in the house. I smoke, at the time I used to smoke PCP. So I'm in the house wet. High as much. I got my little cousin in the house with me. My two cousins. He says, hey, they don't know, I know. I'm telling you right now. They don't know I know right now. I tell you right now, that I know they told on me. And his sisters know too. We go on the porch, and I'm like, uh, man, buy me a Pepsi. Because they later by go to the store. I'm like, they like, all right. Now the polling police been around the neighborhood all day, chasing me, everything, all day. We've been doing this all day. My cousin ran for me and everything all day.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:22

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:22

Like they, they, so when he uh uh, when they go, I'm like, dang, I'm gonna go hit the stick. So I go on the back porch, down the back porch, I can see down the street. I'm on 45th, I can see down the street going towards Passell. So as I'm sitting there, I'm looking, I can get my stick, I'll get my stick, I see the police jump out on him. So I see him in cuffs. So I'm washing, I'm like, damn. So I bag up, so now I'm washing. I'm like, all right. They let one of my cousins go. He goes to, he's gone. They took one of my cousins to the front of the car. And then they let him go. And then five minutes later, not even five minutes later, all the police were surrounding the house, kicking the door. I'm laid on the couch. You know you erase your hill. I said, no, my name's Marico Roseberry. What y'all talking about? They said, uh-uh, you erase your hill. Come on. We've been looking for you. And I know that they told on me. They told on me. That's where I was.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:34

You about to, you know, do you do you feel the, do you know how serious this is at this point? Like, do you know you about to get slapped with some heavy time, or do you feel like it's something you're gonna be able to be out in a few? I didn't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:52

Yeah. I didn't know. I didn't, I didn't, I didn't know. I didn't know what I was doing would give me any time.

unknown 1:33:00

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:01

Like I didn't know, you know what I'm saying? I it could I get in trouble, but not all these years. Not not that, you know what I'm saying? Like I didn't think that all I was doing was was was I don't I don't because I don't make excuses for it. Yeah. You know, like I don't, it was wrong, you know what I'm saying? I spend my life today trying to write every little wrong that I've done. People don't understand what what what I my true mission, you know. I did a lot of things to a lot of people, and I'm trying to right those wrongs, you know?

SPEAKER_04 1:33:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:44

And so I didn't know that what I was doing would cost me years of my life. I didn't I didn't murder no one. Yeah. Right? I didn't kill nobody, you know. I'm not, I didn't, I didn't I haven't raped nobody, you know. I haven't did none of those things. So I didn't know that what I was doing was considered a violent crime that carried a mandatory 85%. I didn't know that, you know what I'm saying? Like, I I don't I don't think a lot of the the the young dudes that that do what they're doing right now, you know what I'm saying, know that if you commit a violent crime, you'll find yourself having to serve 85% of a 20-year sentence, of a 30-year sentence. You know what I'm saying? Like add that up. You know what I'm saying? On a 20-year sentence, you're doing 17 and a half or 17. You know what I'm saying? Add it up on a 30. You know what I mean? And then I didn't know that I would get to court and then the judge would breach my plea bargain. I didn't know that either. I didn't know that unintelligence of the law is not an excuse. They don't care that you're 16, 17, 18, 19, 20. They don't care how old you are. Unintelligence of the law is not an excuse, sir. You broke the law. You know what I mean? And so I didn't know them. I didn't know none of that stuff. And so now here I am, you know, in this situation. And I'm facing, you know, not 20 years, but I'm facing hundreds of years. See, 20 years is what I play guilty to. You know, we're talking about uh you're uh they're they uh telling a 17-year-old kid, yeah, they want uh uh 90, uh 90 years. 30 years for this, 30 years for that. You know, I received 104 years. They just ran them together. I received, I have the paperwork. I received 100 on all my accounts. They added up to about 104 years, you know. I didn't I didn't understand, I didn't know none of that. Yeah, but I know about the law. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? I can barely my ABCs. So to be sitting there and I'm facing this, and but I'm not facing 20, I'm facing, we talking about 99 years for this ACA, 99 years for this ACA, three to nine, three to ninety nine years on an ACA. And then I have a first degree robbery, multiples.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:34

These class A's. All of these offenses carry a life sentence. But I'm not knowing that me just going, this person got $20 on them though. And I just took this $20. Now that's one of my robberies. For nothing. Because I never know what nobody had on. I never, I don't know. I'm just walking, go in here.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:03

I don't know what's in here. So now I'm sitting here facing my whole life and and and it's for 20 this ones. It's $20. This is what this, which one was this? And then the enhancement they put to put charges on you, you don't even, you didn't even know you did all of this stuff. But they got to clean their cases up. You know? They got to clean these cases up. You know what I'm saying? They got to, they got to, these people got to know that that that this is is is is safe over here. And we have the the robbers. We have them.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:44

So basically they closing some cases and it's not even.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:47

Listen to me. Not even, I know, I know damn well. And then people have me with 17, 18, 20-something robberies. I know damn well I ain't hit that many robberies. I ain't did that many robberies. I ain't I don't I don't know. You gotta think people was coming from everywhere trying to rob the plaza. Yeah. People coming from everywhere doing that. But we was dubbed the Plaza Rashford, uh, Plaza and Westport robbers. We got holiday robberies though. Yeah, I was the face. We was the face of that. Yeah. You know? So I'm not, you know what I'm saying? You see, I'm not a kid in a situation like this, man. I don't know. I don't know what to do. I don't know, you know what I'm saying? I'm just hoping it turned out right. Come and get me, grandma. Please. Please come get me, grandma. I ain't playing.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:39

Me and I'm trying to call my grandma, grandma, come and get me.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:41

Why the people not letting me out? Grandma, come get me. And then I would do, like I said, like I, you know what I'm saying? I didn't do my time the the easy way. Like my time been the hard way. I've been in the hole ever since. You know what I'm saying? Like juvenile and everything. You know what I'm saying? They send me to my room. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. What you going in your room for? Ah, because I wanted to play chess, and it's time to stop playing chess after you didn't sit up and make say that I can play chess, and now, you know, now you want to send me to my room. Yeah. Now I'm stuck in the room. So that's I I I didn't know. I didn't know what to, I didn't know, man. I, you know what I'm saying? Every God instructed it.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:31

Boy, that had to be hurting grandma hard to hear you cry out. Grandma come get me and she can't really do it, and not even really knowing if you understand that it ain't nothing I can do, baby. Listen to me.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:45

Every court day, every case manager, I spent days and months asking. Man, why ain't gonna let me out? Man, why why? Why he got a murder and he just got out and I ain't got a murder.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:08

How he got a murder?

SPEAKER_02 1:40:11

And he get 15 years, T years, semi-use, and all I got is a robbery. And I get 20 and my partner get 30. How how that don't even make sense, man? Do you know that my peers with murders was getting out before me? Like all of them. They all out here establishing everything right now. They all went through what I'm going through right now. And they've gotten themselves established. And and and and and hum did alive. Like God is good. Yeah. You know? But we talk about murderers. Robbers. Jack. How the hell did you do that long in jail, right? That's what they gave me. How is they We don't even know? It don't even compute. It don't even, you I've I've took it, I've taken $20. You taking a life.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:09

A life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:10

What is how did you get out before?

SPEAKER_03 1:41:13

You we talking about you've gotten out years before me. And that's like the value of a life to you is $20.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:21

What?

unknown 1:41:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:22

Man, that is serious. They the robbery gang, they more serious about the robbery than the murders.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:31

Because you took something from them. But if you take another black person off this earth, that don't matter to them. You helped me. Thank you. Thank you. But I still gotta charge you because I don't want them to think you can, you know what I mean? But thank you. You taking from us. You gotta go. Yeah. You're a problem. That's how they feel. You're a problem. There's one more thing I want to ask you because I know. And for y'all, before y'all jump, jump on me, you can go to right in the nick of time, part one and two, to hear the other stuff. But there's one more thing I want to ask you. Once you got that time, as a 16-year-old, what was your emotions like? What was going through your mind as a 16-year-old knowing you about to be sitting? Or the possibility. I don't even know if at 16 you knew the type of people were in there, but we heard what type of people were in there. So you about to be taken off of the streets, you about to serve the rest. I mean, a long time in prison.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:35

So what was your It was it was when I looked up when they said 20 years, I was confused because I had pled guilty to a 10, y'all understand? I pled guilty to a 10 to 20 year sentence. And whatever the judge gave me, it'll be ran concurrent. Yeah. Concurrent together. But what the judge did was he gave me a consecutive sentence. He gave me 10 years on all the counts, but ran one of the 10s consecutive. Breached the plea bar. But I'm not knowing this. So all I hear is all these years. So I'm like, I tell, I, I, it's kind of strange. I said, I said, I said, what you gave me uh 40 years? And she like, nah, I gave you 20. And I look at my Lord, I'm like, 20? And he like, she gave you the max. I'm like, man, what you said, everything we ran together. She gave me 10. And he like, she like, well, you can file that back on an appeal on him. I'm like, I look at him, I'm like, eh. And then I turn around, and uh, everything after after she went through everything, I turn around, I see my auntie, my baby brother, and my baby sister, and my cousin. And I turn around and I look at them, and they had the thing. And I said, uh, I got through 20 years, y'all. And they looked at me. And we all gave each other a hug.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:20

Right now I'm concurrent now.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:27

Concurrent. Concurrent means um together. It means um something that's run together. That's what it means. Consecutive means to run wild. And so you have to be conscious of those terms because it could be the difference in you doing 10 years or 20 years. You know, and so that's what that is.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:01

What was the response of your family when you looked at them and told them, y'all, I'm gone.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:14

Just really just hurt my sister, uh, my little sister, she just who I love. She just she just put her head down because it's been me and her all our life. And in that moment, now your mama, your daddy, and now your brother gone. And then you living in a house of my family. It's not even your family. And so she was the one that hurted me. I it wasn't nothing else, it was washing my little sister. Just put her head down and whoa.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:04

Understandable. You talked about being a rose earlier, and you said you still had thorns, though. It's hard to grab onto a rose that has thorns without being hurt. I don't know as a person on the other side of that rose, do I grab that rose and help him clip those thorns so I can, you know, help grab them to, or do I just let that rose be that rose and it figure out how to clip those things itself? What would you say?

SPEAKER_02 1:46:34

Um roses are to be picked, placed, and cherished, nurtured until they die. I don't think you've ever went a woman has ever got a rose or a bouquet of roses and didn't smile, placed them and nurtured them until they died. Regardless of even the the thorns was beautiful to that eye.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:28

That said, I feel like that's marked enough. So the goal is to leave a lasting imprint on their minds and their hearts. We pray you've been indelibly marked. I appreciate you.