Second Wind Leadership Podcast
The Second Wind Leadership Podcast is the perfect resource for anyone who wants to take their leadership skills to the next level. Whether you're a seasoned leader or just starting out, this podcast is designed to help you renew your heart, mind, and soul so that you can lead and live differently. Hosted by James Wilson Jr., a campus pastor and leadership student, this podcast features practical tips and engaging stories from everyday leaders who have found success in different arenas. You can expect new episodes every 2nd-4th Tuesday of the month, and James is always happy to answer any questions you may have. So, if you're looking for a second wind in your leadership journey, be sure to tune in and visit www.jameswilsonjr.com for more information.
Second Wind Leadership Podcast
The Power of Obedience: Cyon Edgerton on Faith, Balance, and Connection
Have you ever found yourself at the crossroads, unsure of what path to take? Our inspiring guest, Cyon Edgerton, faced the same uncertainty when her journey took her from education to ministry to leadership. Guided by her obedience to God, Cyon’s path led her from Southern California to Virginia, with no plan or idea of what would come. Join us as she shares her story of trust in God's provision amidst uncertainty and how she navigated this unexpected journey.
Juggling multiple roles is a challenge faced by many of us. As a wife, mother, pastor, writer, and coach, Cyon knows all about this. But it's not just about keeping all the balls in the air, it's about knowing which ones to catch and which to let bounce. In our conversation, Cyon offers insights on setting boundaries, balancing priorities, and preventing burnout. She also shares on how to cultivate genuine relationships and create authentic communities, stressing the importance of knowing your neighbors and understanding their stories.
The gift of Sabbath is not just one of rest, but also of personal growth and self-improvement. Cyon gives a compelling account of how practicing Sabbath can reduce anxiety and stress and foster care for ourselves, our environment, and those around us. She also illuminates us on her approach to growth and reflection, drawing on her relationships, books, podcasts, mentors, and experiences.
Check her out at cyonedgerton.com
You can learn more about me at www.jameswilsonjr.com Or Follow me on instagram or facebook @jwiljr.
Alright, welcome back to the second win leadership podcast. I am so ecstatic to have a very special guest here today, seon Edgerton, and so I'm going to let her do all the introductions. But I consider you, seon and we've talked about this I consider you a sister to me. I've not only a sister, but one of my heroes like being able to watch you and, in some aspects, following your footsteps in different areas of leadership and ministry has been phenomenal for me, but I wanted the world to be able to experience what I've experienced of you. So, seon, why don't you tell people just a little bit about yourself?
Speaker 2:Yeah, hey. Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm super honored to get to be here with my brother. I'm Seon Edgerton. Like he said, I live right now in Northern California with my husband and our three kids. We come from a somewhat transient background, so you know, james and I, we knew each other because I was in Virginia. I was actually the campus pastor at the church where you're now employed and we never got to actually formally work together. I had transitioned as you were coming in, but we were still there long enough to at least build a relationship.
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, we've just been following wherever the Lord leads. And so now we're in Northern California. My background is mainly public education and instructional design and then unexpectedly, you know, moved into ministry and so I spent a season of time leading at FLC, hampton, of course and through that experience just got to know some really incredible people, and so my next season after that ended up being a lot of getting to work with other churches and teams and leaders and getting to kind of blend those two. You know I spent a lot of time my background is all in education and instructional design and then I got this ministry leadership experience and then getting to blend those two and now mostly what I do is I still do some pastoral work, but mostly I spend my time teaching and coaching and consulting with church leadership teams and helping to raise up the next generation of kingdom leaders Super exciting.
Speaker 1:Nice. No, it's very exciting. I think it's dope to be able to like sit on the other side of the screen with you and I always like when I have guests on here I do like to talk about. Like man, I know some really cool people and so you're one of those folks. But beyond that, you see on, you mentioned being in transient spaces and having to do a lot. You've had, like I won't tell your age, but you've had multiple careers in your in your lifetime. So what inspired you now to pursue this journey from education to ministry to leadership? Like what? What was driving you all this time?
Speaker 2:I can sum that up in pretty much one word, and it is obedience.
Speaker 1:It was. It was not what I wanted.
Speaker 2:It was not part of my plan. You know, I had a plan when I was going to college, graduated high school, had these dreams, had these desires, had these gifts that I wanted to use, had a plan, went to college, got the degrees, worked in the field that I expected to make my lifelong career in, and then God moved us. We were living in Southern California at the time. We had some major upheaval, some completely unexpected transitions in both my career and my husband's career, and in the midst of all of that, we basically found ourselves in a space where I was no longer employed, he was medically retired from the military, and we were just like what the heck are we supposed to do now? And you know, we were young, we were really young when we got married, and so we were both like well, I think we're probably supposed to pray or something. I guess I don't know.
Speaker 2:So we're like we'll just pray about it. And we both just felt God leading us to Virginia and we had no idea why, but we just followed. We were like, okay, whatever, if this is what God's saying, then we'll follow. So we moved to Virginia with no plan and over the course of the next year God unfolded what he already obviously knew was happening and Mike landed himself in another career and I ended up in ministry. I started volunteering. I had tons of teaching jobs offered to me when we moved there and every single one of those doors closed.
Speaker 2:I just felt the Lord say no, no, no and then, I ended up at this church and then I ended up volunteering and that slowly turned into hey, we want to bring you on staff. And I said no multiple times and Mike said pray. And finally I prayed and God said yes and I was like okay, fine, I guess this is what we're doing now. And then, you know, that job led to a career. And then it led to, hey, have you ever considered pastoral ministry getting ordained? And of course I was like no and again felt like nope, this is actually where God is leading.
Speaker 2:And so every step was completely unplanned and unexpected. And even here, even as I transitioned out of my vocational pastoral job into what we're doing now, every step it was like, well, it just kind of looks like this is where God's leading next and so I guess we'll follow, because he hasn't let us down yet. And so, honestly, it wasn't ever anything I aspire to. I don't come from a family of pastors or ministry leaders or anything like that. It was just, hey, god spoke and we're trying our best to listen, one day at a time, and he's proven faithful.
Speaker 1:So this is good. So help me. This is a little off script, but help me navigate a few things. Help me navigate how you know the voice of God Again, as you think about leaders, and we may put different language to it, like, for some of us, it's calling it's obedience, it's purpose, it's this, it's conscious, it's this conscience, whatever it is Like, how did you know that this was the right move? As you were moving, we didn't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, 100% didn't, and no, I mean like just real talk. So the way that God speaks to my husband, mike, is through dreams. I've always been jealous of that Like he will wake up and he will just. I mean, it's like he has this glow you know that God was speaking to him through his dreams and it's so peaceful and clear. And he wakes up and he's like I really feel like I heard from God and I'm like why want that? Because I feel like my hearing from God.
Speaker 2:It's a little more of a wrestle, it's a little more chaotic. I'm a big reader, I'm big into words and so often me hearing from God. It's not an audible voice that I hear, it is a deep sense of knowing in my spirit. I feel like it's a thought, it's a phrase that all of a sudden is present in my mind and in my heart, that I know didn't originate from within myself.
Speaker 1:And a lot of times it comes through scripture.
Speaker 2:A lot of times it comes through prayer, and so then our next step is, all you know, when we say we heard from God, it's always very like did we, did we not? You know, we're not sure. So the next step, like it's a whole process, I feel like, and the next step of that for us is always testing it. We test that word, we test it with one another. What do you feel like you heard? What did you hear? We have our close core people, you know, who are like our prayer warriors, and we'll take it to them and say here's kind of something we think we're hearing Pray with us on this, and then we tested against scripture is what we feel like we're hearing?
Speaker 1:Just this lineup, biblically, I mean you know, there's a lot of things that are pretty clear.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's no way that's got telling me to do that, because that doesn't align with who he is.
Speaker 1:That doesn't align with his word.
Speaker 2:And so, when we feel like we've tested it with one another, we've tested it through taking some time to pray and sit with it, we've tested it through some of our mentor people, I still will tell you we don't have 100% certainty, but we do know that God is always with us and guiding us. And so our next step is to experiment, is to take a step. We don't take a step because we absolutely know for sure, for sure certainty, like with zero doubt, that this is right. We're pretty darn sure. We're hearing from God. And it's not because God isn't clear, it's because we're human. And so then we experiment. We say, okay, well, what would the first step towards obedience look like?
Speaker 2:And so we take that step, and it's usually in that moment that we get some type of affirmation. It's either really clear that, okay, we were hearing from God and he continues to guide us forward, or the door totally closes. And if so, that's okay, that's fine. Then we're gonna reroute, redirect and say, all right, god, we were off a little bit, bring us back, let's reset and figure out what were you actually saying to us? And, sue, it's definitely not as clean cut as we heard from God and we obeyed. There's a lot of experimenting and exploring and taking tentative steps and seeing if God then reveals the next step or if he closes the door.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's so good, it's so good. So, you guys, this is why I love Sion, because it's like she has this unique ability to be able to fit a whole bunch of download, a whole bunch of knowledge, into a couple of minutes. It's just, it's phenomenal. So, sion, walking through some of this, what are you currently doing? Right, you've been teaching, building kingdom leaders, you've been moving in different spaces, walking in obedience. So unpack a little bit of what you, what do you have your hands in right now?
Speaker 2:Good question. So I have my hands. Number one is my family, obviously Key ministry there. We homeschool. We're a homeschooling family. We've been doing that for about five years now, just because of a lot of the changes and moves that God was doing with us. It just helped, for stability reasons, for us to start homeschooling. It was again one of those things that we thought would be temporary, as we were in the midst of transition and turns out that it wasn't temporary.
Speaker 1:We're still doing it five years later.
Speaker 2:And so so we homeschool, which means I get to be really active in that community, which is another space of ministry. Our neighborhood missional community would be a place where I'd say that I've got, you know, leadership ministry hands in. When we moved out here, we rented for a while and then we bought this house. I guess it's been three years now that we've lived here in this neighborhood and God just planted us in a really beautiful community and we've had the opportunity over the years to gather and build relationships. We bought our house in the midst of COVID so we started doing home church with our neighbors for a while and so and you know we still we do Easter services, we do, you know, sater dinners, we do Christmas Eve candlelight in our living room.
Speaker 2:And so it's been really cool to just build a relationship and kind of like be the church right here in our own front yard, and that actually led to homeschooling a couple other kids. And so there were some other neighbors who, for a variety of reasons, wanted to pursue homeschooling but because of their work lives, just it wasn't feasible. And so we now have our little neighborhood homeschool academy. So I've got my three kids and then three other neighborhood kids that I own school. It's so much fun I'm coaching. So I've got a couple groups of women leaders who I spend time getting to coach and do some instructing there. And I am can't say a ton about it right now, but I am on the verge of moving into another pastoring season, pastoral position, so we're kind of in conversation about that right now. So that's unfolding and I write, I get to write, I love, I love, I love, I love writing, and so it's kind of random right now, but I get to do some writing. I think that's everything.
Speaker 1:So you've got all of these worlds. A word that's been coming up for me a lot is convergence or collision colliding. How do you navigate all of the worlds? And really, what lessons have you learned in trying to figure some of these things out? A mom, a wife, a leader, a pastor, homeschooler, just a coach, this, a writer, all of these things how do you? What are the lessons that you're learning?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a good question. So I think the most important thing to clarify and just to understand is that none of these are full-time things. I mean, obviously, parenting, like yeah, I'm a wife and I'm a mom, and those never stop, so the family thing is full-time, but nothing else is full-time. It would be 100% not possible at all for me to do any of these things full-time. I could not be the senior lead pastor of a church full-time and be writing and be coaching and be doing all of these things, and so I think it's important to know that each of these are it's pockets. I don't have 37 coaching groups that I'm running right now. I have one.
Speaker 1:You know I'm not writing a book.
Speaker 2:I write a monthly leadership newsletter. So all of these things are little bits and pieces of an overall full-time existence, and so I think, knowing that reality is important. Everything that I'm doing is small and slow and steady, and I think it's really important to embrace the beauty of those words. Our culture, you know, western American culture, is all about big, and so when I say even, sometimes, you know I'll talk about, I'll be doing an interview or doing a leadership coaching and I'll say something about how, yeah, the things I'm doing right now are small, and I can't tell you how many times someone has been quick to say, oh, no, but that's okay, god's growing it. I'm like, no, no, no, I know it's okay, I want it small.
Speaker 1:I don't have the capacity for it to be bigger.
Speaker 2:I know it's still good. I know it's still growing. The kingdom I know it still matters to God.
Speaker 2:I know that it's important to say that it's small in number does not diminish its importance or effectiveness in the kingdom in any way. And so breaking down that kind of cultural mindset that everything has to be big and huge and mega and whatever, that was part of the work that had to be done. I love getting to exist in all of these different spaces, in little bits and chunks and pieces, you know, and so part of it is just wrapping my mind around the fact that, yeah, these are all kind of small in size and number, whatever, but super, super meaningful and important to the kingdom. So that mindset I think is one. And then the other part of it too is there are a lot of different things that I have my hands in, and someone I can't remember probably my friend, joe, but years ago said something about when you feel like you're juggling a lot. Just remember which balls are rubber and which are made of glass, because some of them will bounce and some of them are break. You're smiling. Have I told you this before?
Speaker 1:Yeah, this I see, on this I feel like I have.
Speaker 1:I was hoping that you would get to that because I was like yo, that is. You said that to me probably five or six years ago and I never forgot it. It absolutely changed my life, because it's this sense of I don't have to be everything for everyone, but there are some things that there are going to be, some balls that are rubber and some will break, like this. So my family, my wife, my girls those are the people who are like, yeah, I'm going to be full time, I'm going to give my all to them. Some of the other things are they're nice, they're nice to have, they're good, they're impactful, but I don't have to do it on the scale or the level that people often force us into. So, yes, continue, I was. That was so good.
Speaker 2:No, no, and that's it. You know it's knowing which balls are made of rubber, which are made of glass, which ones will break and which ones will bounce. And, like you said, like your wife and kids, right, Same my spouse, my kids, that's made of glass. I'm not dropping those balls that will break, that causes damage. I'm not dropping that. But I can, for a season, let my coaching ball bounce off and roll away into the corner and sit there for a while, that's OK.
Speaker 2:I'll pick it back up again if God tells me to, and if not, that's also OK. But knowing that some things can bounce, they can bounce for a while, they can sit still for a while. So I think that's been a huge part of it and just knowing my capacity and my limits. You know again Western culture. We don't love the idea of limits. We always want to break limits, right.
Speaker 2:We're talking about breaking limits and breaking barriers and breaking boundaries and it's like no, actually I need boundaries. I am limited in my capacity and the sooner that I embrace the truth of that and actually learn what my limitations are, the more effective I can actually be in the things that God has given me to do in this particular season. And embracing the rhythms of rest, embracing the holy no.
Speaker 1:Mm, mm. Ok, hold on, hold on, so talk more about that. Like you, this idea of we have a lot of leaders that listen to this that are experiencing second wins, like some of them experience burnout. Some of them are the verge of burnout. What?
Speaker 2:is that In?
Speaker 1:there, right? So tell me what's the holy no Like. Tell me more about that.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm. It means that it's not my job to save everyone and to do everything and to say yes to all the things, that there is a holiness and wisdom in stewarding our yeses and our noes. I think a lot of times, especially because our culture is all about bigger, better, faster, stronger, breaking berries. You know all of these things that oftentimes there we glorify self-sacrifice, and that's not to say that it isn't biblical, it's not to say that God doesn't call us to die to ourselves every day, absolutely. But there's a certain point where self-sacrifice becomes self-sabotage. And I am not giving of myself and sacrificing in ways that God called me to. I'm doing it because it feels like I have to, because otherwise I'm not enough. I'm not doing enough, I'm not giving enough, and so, being able to say no, I have limits.
Speaker 2:I know what my limits are. I know what my capacity is. I've reckoned with it. I've talked to my mentors about it. They hold me accountable. I talked to my therapist about it. Get you a therapist Therapy, you know. And it's like no, I have limitations, my capacity is limited and I want to be able to give myself fully and wholly to the things that God has actually given me in this season and to be able to still be able to choose rest and choose joy. And so the the Holy, no, it's, it's a gift. It is a gift to be able to say no, thank you, that's not going to work for me in this season. I'm not available for that right now, or even just no, because no is a complete sentence.
Speaker 1:No is a complete sentence. Yeah, yeah, wow, that's a lot. That's a lot to digest. It's good, it's good. So. So let's switch gears for a moment.
Speaker 1:As you talk about, you know, the spaces that you've had an opportunity to be a part of, the things that you've gotten your hands on. One of the things that you mentioned earlier was about creating this, this community, in your neighborhood. So you were, you were joining this community, but you are now being very intentional about community. I want to talk more about that, like what I've got a bit of advice from you before, too. That was so, so significant for me in pastoring and leading a community. Or you're like, make friends with the people that you actually serve, and that was that was mind blowing to me, because I'm like, well, you can't because there's this power dynamic and we shouldn't do this and there are people, so. So tell me more about how you create a sense of community wherever you go, as you're being transient. How do you create a sense of community with authenticity and inviting people in and knowing spheres of influence? Does that make sense? I want to be able to just kind of talk on that for a second.
Speaker 2:Now it's a good question and it's something that I need to think about because, on one level, this is a question I get asked a lot. Because it's on one level, it's just something that I do. I'm an extrovert, a crave community. I have always loved gathering and including people, so it's kind of just something like I can't help it.
Speaker 2:But at the same time, you know, it's something that I want to be mindful about and take that unconscious competence and bring it into the conscious so that it's something that can be shared and multiplied. So it's something that I'm still in the process of thinking through and working through Gosh. How has God built and equipped and gifted me to do this so I can be intentional about stewarding it well? But you know, for me it really comes down to one. I just we're meant for community, like we're just meant for community. There's nothing that I have ever done that I did alone. You know, this is what God designed us for. I mean, this is why the act of creation even happens, because family and community matters and it's important.
Speaker 2:And so I think, on some level, mike and I believe there's an incredible woman who I got to meet a few years ago. Her name is Jill Briscoe and she's just a phenomenal leader, and she said something that always stuck with me. She said your mission field is between your own two feet, and that was something that Mike and I really grabbed onto and said yeah, you know what? There is no siloing or separation of, like ministry and life, or mission and home life, like it's all. It's all one, like literally the moment you put your feet on the floor in the morning, you are walking in your mission field, and so, wherever God has put us and planted us, our question has always been okay, god, show us who. Who are the people of peace? Who is it that we are here to be in relationship with, so that we can mutually love and serve and build and grow one another? And so knowing our neighbors is a huge part of that. Everywhere we've ever lived, we get to know our neighbors.
Speaker 2:We usually host a little neighborhood barbecue when we first move in to a new place just to get to know the neighbors and see okay, where, where is there like a holy connection here Open doors like our front door. You know we always and this it sounds like a stupid kind of insignificant thing, but it's one of the things that we intentionally do is we always? And if the house that we're living in doesn't have one, then we put one in, but we always have some type of screen door or glass door so that we can keep our door open. You know that the main door is usually a big wood door that you can't see through, and and when we're home and available, that door is open and our neighbors know it. You know we make sure that we have a secondary see through door that says, hey, we're here, we're available, come on in, and our neighbors do hanging out in the front yard.
Speaker 2:You know we hang out in the front yard more than we do the backyard because this is how we get to know people and be present in a space and not be kind of sequestered and confined away and are, nope, I'm not available, don't talk to me, kind of thing, and then from there you know it's, it's, it's, it's genuine curiosity like asking good questions, gathering people, including everyone, and just doing everyday discipleship.
Speaker 2:It's getting to know people and their stories, it's being genuinely curious about where they are in life and how they got there and then listening for the Holy Spirit to nudge and say, hey, let's talk about that more and let's see what God can do with that. So I mean I wish I had some like big grand. Oh, this is the strategy and it's really not. It's just loving people and usually food. You know, gathering people around the table and good food and good conversations and genuine curiosity and love and just desiring to be present with our people. You know, usually it extends from our neighborhood into the different spheres of influence. So Mike's office always gets invited to a barbecue. Whoever, whoever he happens to be working for at the time, it's always okay. When are we going to have your people over?
Speaker 2:I wanted to get to know everybody and then you just you kind of see, see who sticks, see who keeps coming around, see who's still curious about the presence of God, and just watch what God does with. It Sounds really informal and loose, but I don't know, somehow it works it works.
Speaker 1:It works, no, and I've, I've, I've experienced you do it and I think that it does work. It is, it's significant. It feels like I think of my wife. One of her now best friends was really she met one of her best friends at one of your gatherings. You know what I mean. Like it's. I mean it's really cool, and so it's like I've watched what you you've done to bring people together, and a part of one of the things I love about you, sian, is, even as you're talking, you you've wrestled, you you wrestle with questions off, and you even said it that I'm asking good questions and things like that. Tell me how, then, as we think about leadership and asking questions, how do these questions contribute to your growth and the growth of those that you lead? Let's just kind of switch gears for a moment.
Speaker 2:Um, I love questions, I love asking you questions, the biggest thing for me that I think it comes down to and I think too a lot about my parenting and my homeschooling in this and those parenting and pastoring and teaching. They are also I love the word that you use convergent. They run so parallel and I learn just as much in my pastoring that I then can apply to my parenting as I do my parenting and teaching that then gets applied into my pastoring. So I think about with my kids and what is my number one job as I am shaping their hearts and minds, not only as their mom, but also as their core educator right now in this season.
Speaker 2:I feel like how I define it, my biggest job is to facilitate discovery. That's it. Not to have all the answers, I think, especially in leadership and ministry we have this and again, it's a cultural thing, but we idolize our leaders.
Speaker 2:We do, we put our ministry leaders and our pastors up on a pedestal and all of a sudden it becomes this hierarchical thing where they have all the answers and they're telling us what to do and what to think, instead of actually equipping the body to go out into the world and do the work that we've all been told to which is to make disciples.
Speaker 2:So my job as a pastor, my job as a coach, my job as a parent, it's to facilitate discovery. So how do we do that? How do we facilitate discovery? With good questions, with curiosity. So I think that's a huge part of being a learner and facilitating learning and discipleship. In others, questions lead into that, like what are all the questions? There's no questions that are stupid or dumb or wrong or off the table or can't be asked. You want to ask questions about why this, why that? What does this mean? Why does the Bible say that? Let's dig into it, let's discover together. Not because I have all the answers, not because I'm the one who, absolutely most of the time, I have zero answers, but let's explore together, let's discover. And so I'm constantly asking questions, asking questions of my mentors, asking questions of the world in general, and exploring and trying to uncover and discover. Gosh, what does God have to say about this?
Speaker 1:So see, on your questions, I almost want to lean in a little bit. Your questions have led you to be somewhat disruptive and this is a disruptor in a span. So, as a pastor now and some of your work now, what you briefly touched on but as a pastor and also an activist, because those are questions how do you navigate some of these challenges and the complexities of asking the questions, speaking truth to power but also now loving the people as you walk through these compassionate curiosities and things like that? Does that make any sense? How do you walk through? Again, more convergence, how do you both raise the red flag but also invite others to navigate it well with you?
Speaker 2:Big part of that, I think, for me, is laying a foundation first. So some of the disruption it doesn't happen without relationship, and I think there are spaces where the disruption absolutely happens without relationship. In social media spaces, you know, in online forums, there's a lot of because of our technological world, there's a lot of disrupting that happens without relationship and for me I personally feel that it's just not always as effective, and so the relationship comes first knowing the other person or group of people, loving, respecting hey, we're all children of God here and also gauging do we have similar desires? If it's kind of clear that what I'm facing right here is a brick wall, there are probably some people who are built and wired by God to just demolish that brick wall and, you know, tunnel their way through it. That's not how God is wired me. So a big part of that work for me, in the disruption at least, is knowing that I'm engaging in spaces where there's a desire to learn and move forward, like we may be starting on complete opposite ends of the spectrum, but we're all desiring to actually learn and grow. And I think a huge part of it too is addressing and having to speak to the what ifs in those disruptive spaces.
Speaker 2:What I hear a lot, or even if it's not blatantly stated, what I sense a lot, is a lot of fear, a fear of, well, we can't ask those questions, we can't go down that trail, almost as if our curiosity and our questioning is going to like unravel the very fabric of creation.
Speaker 2:And I just believe that my God is bigger than that. I don't think that he's threatened by my questions. I don't think that the fabric of creation in reality is going to unravel and fall apart because of my curiosity. I think that God makes space for that and he's okay with that, and we don't always in mainstream churches see safe space created for that. It's. This is the doctrine, this is the line in the sand, this is the theology, this is how we interpret scripture and this is how everybody else is going to understand it too, instead of encouraging our people to discover and question and be curious for themselves, giving them the tools to actually dig into scripture, teaching about history and culture, and so there's a lot of relationship that needs to be built before the disruption can happen and a lot is just remembering that my God is really, really big.
Speaker 2:And he's not threatened by anything that I say or do. There's nothing that I can question that is going to somehow diminish his goodness, like he's big enough for it. You know, and the same way kids are curious, and the same way our kids ask us questions, really hard questions sometimes, and it's okay we get to help you figure out the path of discovery here. And then you know also, jesus flipped some tables, so sometimes we just flip tables.
Speaker 1:So what, as we think about these questions this is again just detouring a little bit what are the questions we should be asking right now, as you think about the leaders you've been working with, as you think about the spaces that you're involved in, the people that you get a chance to hang out with, as you think about even you as a leader, but also those coming up like, what are the questions we should be asking?
Speaker 2:The biggest thing that stands out to me right now is what couple things, but they all kind of converge in the same thing. So what is the church of the next generation going to look like, and what do we need to be doing to equip and empower and prepare our young people today to be the leaders of that church? Because it's going to look very different from what it looks like today, just like it looks very different than it did a hundred years ago or a thousand years ago. Right, it continues to change and evolve. The core heart of the gospel doesn't but how we go about doing things changes for a variety of different reasons. Some of them are cultural, some of them are historical, and so that's a big part of it.
Speaker 2:I think the other question we need to be asking and I'll dig into that a little bit more too but another question to be asking is who are we not hearing from? What voices are not represented? What people are not at this table right now, and why? Why not? And do we really have a good, solid reason why they aren't here? Usually we probably don't, but what are the voices that we need to have at this table? Who have we not asked their story yet, who have we not engaged with yet?
Speaker 2:And so, going back to the question of what does the church of tomorrow look like and what can we be doing today to prepare those leaders? Because, to be honest, and not necessarily the church of tomorrow, but like the church of the next generation, bro, we're not going to be leading it, you and me we're not. Like I'm going to be lucky if I'm still going to be here to be pouring into and mentoring the leaders who are leading it. Right, but I want to know today what is my job to prepare them? Because the biggest thing that we hear, especially with this millennial, you know, gen Z generation, is that they're leaving the church. You see all the studies.
Speaker 1:You know they're leaving the church.
Speaker 2:They're leaving the church. They're leaving the church. It's a catastrophe. What are we going to do when the reality is, if we dig deeper into those studies and there's there's so many more that have come out the Barna group does some really good stuff, but what we are finding is that when we talk about, oh, these, these generations are leaving the church.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It doesn't paint an accurate picture, because what we mean by that is that our attendance is being affected. What they're leaving are the brick and mortar four walls of the established church that has let them down in some way. When we actually survey these young people, they demonstrate high levels of faith, and what we've done is we have equated faith with church attendance, that those two are the same, that if you have left the brick and mortar small C church, that you also must be completely rejecting God and faith and the kingdom all together. And they're saying, no, we're not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, we're just moving into spaces where we're actually seeing what we feel like is kingdom work being done. And, guys, it's not in the brick and mortar buildings anymore, it's in para church organizations, it's in these small neighborhood missional communities. These are the spaces where people are operating with mercy and justice.
Speaker 2:This is where they're talking about caring for the earth because, guys, climate change is something that we as Christians need to be wrestling with. We were given this earth to steward. And so we see these young people saying, no, we love the idea of faith, we love God, but we believe in a God who's just and merciful. We believe in a God who cares about black men being murdered. We believe in a God who cares about justice for indigenous women. We believe in a God who cares about the earth and the environment. We care about these things and we want to be in spaces where our faith is actually being put into action, and so, when we see, this is the generation that's going to be leading the church of tomorrow, what does the church look like today that is slowly on its way to being obsolete, and can we first be okay with that and stop trying to hold on to dead models that no longer serve the kingdom and we instead start asking the questions and say Holy Spirit, show us what is happening.
Speaker 2:What is this shaking that's happening, and how do we, as the leaders of today? The questions that I'm not asking is how do I build the church of tomorrow? What can, what systems, what strategies, what structures? What I'm really asking is, gosh, what can I do to prepare and equip these young people, not to church plant in the way that we were taught to church plant, but to actually be the leaders that God is calling them to be, in a context that's going to look very different than it has ever looked for, you and I and those who have come before us.
Speaker 1:That's good, it's really good. It is. You think about the idea of the original intent of creation was right, the human flourishing, but also the care of all creation. Right, and at some level all of those things are. As we engage in that work of justice, as we engage in that work of human flourishing, as we engage in the work of caring, it can be exhausting, right, there's this space of like, some of the folks who are on the front line, and whatever a sphere of influence or ministry or leadership they're in, it can be so exhausting. So tell me how you found Sian to be able to maintain healthy, to navigate this in a healthy way.
Speaker 2:One word Sabbath, True Sabbath. Anybody that knows me knows that. Like, if we're going to talk about anything ever, it's Sabbath, it's the it's I don't know, it's the one thing. There's one thing, and one thing only that I could talk about, teach about, preach about, write about. For the rest of my life it would be Sabbath and not the kind of I don't know if I'm allowed to say, I don't know what I'm allowed to say or not.
Speaker 1:You go with, go for it. I'll edit it afterwards.
Speaker 2:You can just edit it Not the often bastardized version of Sabbath that we sometimes practice in the West, because we don't always have a full grasp and understanding of a true biblical Sabbath. You know not the Sabbath that says okay, I'm shut off, I'm shut down, I'm barricaded here in my fortress, you're not allowed to call me, you're not allowed to text me because I'm resting, whatever that means. And not a day where I'm not working so that I can take care of like other things that need to be done in my life. But an actual Sabbath, so it's probably been. It's been 10 years now because it's when I was pregnant with our middle child and she's almost 11. So I guess it's actually been almost 11 years now.
Speaker 2:But Mike and I, there was just a season where I was sick, there was some burnout happening, there was just multiple things going on that knocked me on my butt and in that time pretty much all I could do was lay in bed and read as I was healing and resting and I was pregnant at the time. So just multiple things happening and I remember flipping my Bible open one day and just you know kind of that thing that you do when you're like whatever and you just like open it and you let it land, and wherever it lands, you know that's what you read.
Speaker 2:So it was one of those moments and it landed it was in the Old Testament and God was giving instructions to his people about Sabbath. And so it just it hit my heart and so I started doing research and I started studying. You know what? What is true Sabbath? Not just a day off, not this barricaded fortress of existence, but like what is actual Sabbath, the Sabbath that God intended, the Sabbath that he gave to his children. And so I started learning and researching and then, mike and I, it was something that we began praying about and trying and very, you know, stunted ways to kind of practice. And then it was a couple years later that I made a friend. Her name's Mikaela. She's phenomenal, I've had her on my podcast before and she's Jewish and she I don't remember how it came up.
Speaker 2:It came up in conversation at some point. You know we had been kind of really trying to embrace this idea of Sabbath existence and she began at that time ministering to our family from a Jewish perspective and history and culture and understanding of scripture, what Sabbath was really all about, and her teaching and her ministry and her walking alongside and guiding us in that is absolutely by far the most pivotal, like transformational experience we've ever had. It completely changed us, it changed our family, it changed our practices, it changed the way that we lead and do ministry. And so, ever since then, you know, we've committed to a, you know, a traditional, biblical Sabbath practice. And the beauty of Sabbath is, you know, it goes. It goes beyond Exodus, it goes beyond the 10 commandments, like it's the first gift that God ever gave us. You know, at the moment of creation, the seventh day, god rested. Like our first experience as humans with God was to rest in his presence. It's the first gift that he ever gives us. And so, and even within the idea of Sabbath right, if you, if you talk to someone who has the Jewish cultural understanding of Sabbath, it is about mercy and justice. Sabbath is about not only care for ourselves and our souls but for those around us and for creation.
Speaker 2:You know, part of Sabbath, not just on the day of Sabbath, but every seven years you let the ground rest, right. So there's the weekly Sabbath, which is a day of rest every week in the midst of everything, where we are basically experiencing this in breaking of heaven onto earth, that we get one day a week in the midst of our striving and our stress and everything that we're putting our hands to. We get one day, as a gift from God, to experience what eternity is going to feel like. So we don't have to actually just wait for eternity, we get to experience just a taste of it one day, every week, if we choose to enter into that gift. And then every seven years is the year that the land rests right. And so God says, hey, every seven years let the land rest, and then every seven sevens right, the year of Jubilee. This is the big one. This is when all debts are forgiven and erased. This is when captives and slaves are set free, when land is returned and restored.
Speaker 2:And so there's this Jewish understanding that if we as a people, like as the world at large, were to actually participate in and embrace biblical Sabbath, the reason that it brings justice and mercy is because you think about one or some of the biggest issues and problems that we have. Sabbath takes care of it. Sabbath takes care of our anxiety, our stress, our sickness. Sabbath takes care of creation. Sabbath says that we're not going to rape and pillage the earth for every resource that it can possibly give us. We're going to let the ground itself rest and be restored. Sabbath says that we release captives, that we return land. So you talk about all of the social systemic issues that we have economics, economic justice, environmental justice, social justice. All of these ideas are wrapped up in a Jewish understanding and practice of Sabbath, and so it's mind blowing and so, anyways, I know that was sorry.
Speaker 1:See, that's the tangent that I get off on, but the strong answer was how do you do these things?
Speaker 2:How do you? You know, practice balance and be an activist, whatever it's, because of Sabbath and because it is something bigger and more divine than we could ever imagine.
Speaker 1:That's good I was. I was trying to try to listen and take notes and then make sure I'm going to this. Was that was really good? It was good. It was good. No, that's, it's very helpful. So so, as we think about this, a lot of the work that you're doing, how do you, how do you approach it? You shared briefly just a couple minutes ago, but how do you continue this process of growth and self improvement? What are you? What are you engaged in? You shared some of your relationships. What are the books? What are the podcasts? Who are the mentors? What are the experiences that you've had that have influenced your growth?
Speaker 2:Yeah, being part of learning communities is a huge part of it. I mean it really all does come back to me for community and gathering like minded people and being able to learn from them. I got to be part of uptick, you know, which is a program back there on the East Coast which was phenomenal. Through that I met Joe Saxon, who's been a friend and mentor of mine for almost nine, nine or 10 years now and her impact has been hugely transformational in my life in leadership. I've always desired to gather.
Speaker 2:So when I first started vocational ministry, I was in children's ministry and the first thing that I did was I called, I made a list of there's like 20 local churches and I contacted all of their children's ministry people and I said hey, would you be interested in getting together like once a month for lunch just to see how each other's doing, pray for each other and share ideas? You know, what are you reading? What are you learning? What conference did you go to? How can we resource and equip and learn from each other? And it was great. I mean we had a group of I think out of all of that I had like 10 women, other local children's leaders, who responded, and we met every month and FLC was great. I said, freddie, I want to meet with these people to learn from each other and I want to buy them lunch every month. Can I do that? And he said, yeah, you know. So I used church funds to pay for lunch for these people and we would gather and learn from each other. We had our own little learning cohort and community.
Speaker 2:I did the same thing when I was. I had a different experience and response, but when I became campus pastor, I attempted to do the same thing and then sometimes, you know, it comes from formal spaces. I'm in grad school right now, so I mean formal academic learning. It has value. There's a time and a place and a season for it. If that's something that's available to you and that you're called to, I do. I read a ton, I'll be honest, you know, and I have a podcast for a while, and I don't really listen to podcasts only because I'm a visual learner.
Speaker 2:I have to see like if there's a transcript of a podcast, I will read it, but listening to things it doesn't, unfortunately, work for me and the way that I'm wired. Honestly, the biggest thing is it comes down to people and whether that's through a formal okay, I'm part of a coaching group or I have a formal mentor or I'm part of some type of program or learning community or learning cohort. That's huge because life, life is learning. You know, it's what I tell my kids with homeschool all the time like, just because you're not at the table doing a workbook doesn't mean you aren't learning. We learn constantly and so, whether it's formal or informal, getting together with some other local ministry leaders and sharing ideas and resources and whatnot, the biggest part for me is just having regular rhythms of reflection. That's the biggest thing because life is learning.
Speaker 2:Every time I step outside my front door, I'm learning. I'm learning from observation, I'm learning from the people around me, I'm learning from the experiences that I had. I'm learning from the sermons that I'm listening to. I'm learning from the books that I'm reading. I'm learning from the encounters that I'm having with my neighbors. But the only way that I really learn from something, no matter what it is, no matter what format, formal or informal, if I'm not actually reviewing it and doing something with it. So practices like a daily exam or a weekly exam are really important for me because I'm able to take those moments, those experiences and really reflect on it. So you know, pastor, I love alliteration.
Speaker 2:So having regular rhythms of reflection I feel like are really important, because that's what I'm able to do Quiet the noise and say, okay, what did I experience? What caught my attention, what grabbed my heart, what caused me to say, hmm, what was a real struggle. Now, let me sit with those things and maybe talk to someone about those things A friend, a mentor, a therapist. Let me pray about these things and say what is the lesson, what is it that God is actually trying to teach me from this particular moment? So, just being intentional with engaging with the experiences that we're having every day and then applying what we've learned, because information alone doesn't lead to transformation. Information plus application leads to transformation.
Speaker 1:Come on, come on. This is good, so, so see on. What is the one thing? Last question I'll ask what, as you think about the leaders coming up after you, this next generation of leaders, what is the one thing you wish you could say to them, and what do you want to say to them? What do they need? What are you sensing as you think about your life lessons? What is it that you want to say to this next generation?
Speaker 2:I think the biggest thing that I would want to say you know and I mentioned before Jill Briscoe that your mission field is between your own two feet. I know that this generation, whether it's because they've been in ministry and experience burnout and I mean this is true even for our generation and those that came before us, you know the message is the same is being mindful of how we're defining ministry and leadership, because it's not about vocation and it's not about a job title and it's not about a building and it's not about a brick and mortar establishment. It is that we are all called to the same ministry and that is to make disciples, to go into all the world and make disciples. And that word go that we read there what it actually means when we translate it is as you go, which means as you go about your everyday life, that you are in ministry.
Speaker 2:I remember when I transitioned out of my job, my pastoral job. I remember multiple people asking me so what are you going to do now that you're leaving ministry? And I wish that at the time I was mature enough to be able to pastor that question, to be able to give it a pastoral answer. That helped to maybe bring a little clarity and understanding, and I didn't have that at the time. I think I probably said something really smooth like, oh no, but what I wish I had known then and had been able to lovingly say was I'm not leaving ministry, I'm just changing contexts because my vocation, this is not my ministry.
Speaker 2:Being a disciple who makes disciples, who makes disciples, that's my ministry, that's my mission loving God and loving people. And all of us do that. And I think this generation coming up, there's a lot of disillusionment, I think there's a lot of hurt, there's a lot of burnout and we tend to fear these things. All the conversations about deconstruction and what I would want to tell them is embrace it. Your disillusionment is a holy thing, it is a good thing. Dig into it, engage with it, ask the questions Eventually. Yes, we do want to reconstruct. We don't just want to deconstruct and dismantle everything. There are things that need to be dismantled, don't get me wrong but for the purpose of rebuilding and reconstructing. And so, where's the Father at work? Join Him there. It is not all about vocational ministry. It is about knowing what God is calling you to and where he's at work and joining Him. And so if you've had an experience that left you broken and wounded, okay, talk to a therapist, take your time, get healed. If you are exhausted and burnout, take a nap, rest. It's not the end. Your hurt, your burnout, your brokenness, your questions, your curiosity, your disillusionment, the process of deconstruction none of that is the end of the story. That is not the period. It is just a comma, and God has such big plans and such good plans, and he is so much bigger than any building that we try to box Him into.
Speaker 2:And so I love the next generation of leaders. I love their boldness, I love that they're not just eating everything that they're being fed. I love that they're asking questions, I love that they're challenging, I love that they're taking systems and breaking them down to see what else God might actually want to do. I love that they're experimenting. I love that they're curious. These are all good and holy and beautiful things that God can use to do something extraordinary, and so I would just say, oh my gosh, embrace that and know that God sees it, and know that God is pleased with it, and know that he is right there in the midst with you, sleeves rolled up, hands dirty, right alongside you, and so have fun with the Father in that process, and I cannot wait to see what unfolds, and I'm just here to do my part, whatever that may be.
Speaker 1:That's so good. Ladies and gentlemen, sion Edgerton, this is so, so good. So, sion, would you? How do people get in touch with you? As people are, I'm sure, listening to this and I'm hoping to get this visual as well, as people are digesting this how do they get in touch with you? How do you want them to connect?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great question. So there's a lot of contact options on my website and social media is also really great. I'll be honest, instagram is kind of my jam. I've, you know, facebook is there but I don't really use it and I'm not cool enough like for Tic Tac and whatever. I'm not an early adopter, so I'm still that like Instagram person, but I am on all the spaces.
Speaker 2:So everything is Sion Edgerton. Website is Sion Edgertoncom. All the social medias are Sion Edgerton. It's a good thing about a weird name, like mine is all the handles were available because none of them are taken. So, yeah, everything is under Sion Edgerton and any of those websites, social media, those are all great spaces and yeah, I'm excited, gosh, I'm just excited to see what God does with all of this. Thank you so much for the invite, james.
Speaker 1:Of course, awesome, awesome, awesome. All right y'all. Well, that is Sion. I hope that you enjoy it. I hope that you will follow her, connect with her and allow yourself to be transformed by her wisdom. Second one leadership podcast.