Navigating Modern Relationships. Breaking Gender Norms for a Balanced Love Life

"Don't tell me to make you a list. You have eyes. You can see what needs to be done."

This episode hit different. 😅

In this episode of the Women's Health Podcast, Dr. C and Kim step outside the clinic and into the living room talking about marriage, mental load, intimacy, and why so many men feel like they're disappearing from the home.

They get into it all: why household roles changed faster for women than men, the real reason a lot of women lose interest in sex (hint: it's not about attraction), why infidelity is often a symptom and not the actual problem, and the three things honesty, humility, and the willingness to hear that can change the direction of a relationship.

This isn't about picking sides. It's about understanding each other better, communicating without contempt, and building a partnership that can actually go the distance.

Married, dating, healing from something, or just nosy? This one's for you. 🎙️

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 🎙️ IN THIS EPISODE
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 00:00 — Welcome back & catching up
 03:20 — What's Trending: Father's Day and the shift in how we talk about dads
 11:00 — Why women's roles evolved faster than men's roles over the last 100 years
 17:30 — The "Manchild Syndrome" and why some women lose interest in sex
 25:00 — "Don't make me a list", what real partnership in the home looks like
 32:00 — Are women too independent? Unpacking a mentor's controversial take
 38:30 — Complain, don't criticize, how communication makes or breaks a marriage
 44:00 — Divorce rates, undefined roles, and why marriage is harder today than ever
 48:00 — Why infidelity is often a symptom, not the actual disease
 52:00 — Feeling cheated before being cheated on both sides of the story
 54:30 — The 3 H's: Honesty, Humility, and Hearing Dr. C's takeaway for every relationship
 55:30 — Final thoughts and wrap up

─────────────────────────────
 📌 KEY TAKEAWAYS
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 ✔ Mental load is real and it affects intimacy more than people realize
 ✔ "Helping" isn't the same as sharing the full weight of a task
 ✔ Infidelity is often a symptom of feeling unappreciated, not the root cause
 ✔ Complain, don't criticize, how you say something matters as much as what you say
 ✔ Honesty before marriage prevents resentment after marriage
 ✔ The 3 H's: Honesty, Humility, and Hearing the foundation of any relationship that lasts

─────────────────────────────
 🔗 CONNECT WITH US
 ─────────────────────────────
 Follow us on Instagram: @drcwomenshealthdoc
 Listen on Spotify & Apple Podcasts: Women's Health Podcast with Kim and Dr. C

We want to hear from you, what relationship topic should we cover next? Drop it in the comments. 👇

#Relationships #Marriage #MentalLoad #CommunicationInMarriage #WomensHealthPodcast #CaribbeanCouples #CaribbeanWomen #CaymanIslands #MarriageAdvice #RelationshipGoals #HealthyRelationships #MarriedLife #ManchildSyndrome #IntimacyMatters #WomenEmpowerment #FathersDay #ModernMarriage #CommunicationTips

Follow Dr C on Instagram @drc_thewomenshealthdoc.
Follow Kim on Instagram @thewomenshealthphysio
Also check out Beyond the diagnosis with Kim and Dr C. Mondays at 8pm on Nationwide90fm (Youtube)

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:04

Anyway, welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to another episode of the Women's Health Podcast with Kim and Dr. C. I'm Dr. Leroy Campbell, the Women's Health Doc, and I'm here with Kimberly Hoffman Reed.

SPEAKER_00 0:18

The Women's Health Physio.

SPEAKER_03 0:19

Hi, Dr.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

C.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

How are you doing today?

SPEAKER_03 0:23

Boy, I'm good, you know. I'm good. It's good to see you. Last week we were supposed to do a show, and somebody, was it me? Who's it? Who was it? How are you gonna know? Remind me.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Are you blaming me? Dr. C, who when I can't remember prompt you. Don't let me talk your business, you know. Don't let me talk your business. You just set the blame and move on.

SPEAKER_03 0:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Set the blame and move on.

SPEAKER_03 0:45

Oh, yes, yeah, but it's me. I'll tell the blame. I'll tell the blame. But yeah, yeah. Oh, yes, I remember now. But I did get to see you. Yes, yes, that was lovely. That was good. We get all in signs and chats offline.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

So people don't believe that's I only see you when we have these talks now. We talk only when we have these talks. Now they think that oh, yeah, Dr. C always talking, guys. He's just as busy for me as he is for you.

SPEAKER_03 1:13

Oh no, no, sir. I won't well, I won't take that on. I've learned to just accept certain blames, especially after being married. How long have I been married now? For 16 years. You've learned. So I learned I don't get into I don't get into certain fights. So I'll accept defeat. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Accept it, accept it.

SPEAKER_03 1:35

Anyway, come on now. Let's what tell me what's trending. Because you know, I've been, you know, you're the one that has to keep me up to date with what's going on in the spell the social media. What social media space? Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Health space, yes. So yesterday was Father's Day. That's good.

SPEAKER_03 1:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Uh a lot of the posts yesterday were there weren't much father bashing, so that's good.

SPEAKER_03 2:00

That's good.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

More of a celebration of the good dads, and not even saying good dads, just celebrating all dads. And if you want to take claim for that, even if you're not, you are free to do so. Because it just seemed like people are moving away from that posting their mother on Father's Day because they played both mother and father role. You know, they were I didn't see much of that. I didn't see any of that yesterday, which is at first. So that was good. I mean, a lot of fathers were being praised. So I'm seeing, like, yeah, the fathers are stepping up. So I'm good on that. And not a lot of gilding jokes. So another thumbs up for that in my book. So yeah, it was a good father's day, I'm guessing, for the fathers. I saw them out there celebrating. I went with my dad to get ice cream, and I saw a lot of fathers out with the family. So it looked like a good day. It looked like a good day. It looks like a good day. And I'm happy about that direction in which we're heading in where, you know, yes, we have good fathers and we have bad fathers. Yes, just like we have good mothers and we have bad mothers, and yeah, probably we have overwhelmingly more negatives for the father's side. But there are a lot of trying fathers. There are a lot of trying fathers, and you know, encouragement, sweet and label. So encourage them to continue on that path instead of beating down on fathers and all the things that they're doing wrong. I mean, culture played a huge role in where fathers are right now. You know, for many years, they just provided and they didn't really do a lot in the family, and now things have changed drastically where women are out working and they didn't learn this from their fathers or the fathers before. So this is all this is a new space for them. And if they're trying and if they're willing to learn and be a part in more than just in more than one way, it's more than just providing, but actually being there for their children, then encourage it, support it, love on them. And we might find that a few years from now, posting a mom would not even be a thing that we'd even have to discuss because that doesn't exist, and that would be a good place to live in. What do you think?

SPEAKER_03 4:03

Yeah, I think yeah, definitely a good point. I think that's encouraging. The point you made about father's roles, I think is a very, very important point in the kim. Because you know, I think was it the last show we were talking about the fact that the role of women has evolved tremendously over the last hundred years. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:25

It was the one before on the sleep.

SPEAKER_03 4:26

One the one before, no, yeah. The role of women has evolved much faster than the roles of men in society.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

Right.

SPEAKER_03 4:35

You know, we we you know, we talk about what happened after World War II when women went into the workspace and began to become earners, right? They started becoming more involved in academics, and we have a world now where many, if not most of our women, are working, you know, and they're juggling several roles because exactly yeah, you know, you had before women were in the home, homemakers taking care of children, you know, caring for the family, but now they're now doing both, right? You know, so it's not like they lost the responsibility, they didn't lose any, they just took on more, they took on more, you know. So that was the blessing and the curse of the liber women's liberation movement, right? And what happened is that the role of men really didn't go along the same evolution, so men still were in in the workspace, the expectation was still that they're breadwinners and not men as homemakers, not men as being domestic in their mentality, and so consequently now it created a problem, and it's still creating a problem today where now there's a void in the home because the women are women who are still in trying to juggle both things, can't you can't be 100% of any one thing, you can't, you understand, and so consequently now there creates this void, and sometimes friction is sometimes friction that causes disruption in relationships whereby men really didn't learn how to deal with women who are earning who have a sense of independence who are educated. How do these men deal with women? And so, for example for that reason, I believe that has been a part of the problem with the fact that men have become absent from the homes because some of them have been so intimidated that to run away. That's one of the reasons. What do you think? That is one of the reasons.

SPEAKER_00 6:37

I agree, and I think also it's it becomes multifactorial because I remember I think we discussed once a study that spoke on female libido being decreased because of the man child. So women feeling like they have to take care of their husbands as one more child because they're not pulling their weight in the household, even if they work and provide in terms of the household that we both live in, because we're both providing, men isn't pulling their weight. And because women are constantly doing so much, they don't have time to feel feminine and to want to have sex with their husbands, and then the men they want sex, and that creates a tension because they can't get the wives to have sex, and the wife cannot get the husband to understand why they don't want to have sex, and they have this back and forth, and that can lead to all sorts of trouble in terms of the marriage. So that is because, as you stated before, men they haven't really evolved into this new role where yes, you're providers, but your wife is also providing, so you have to meet her halfway somewhere in terms of taking on other roles and responsibilities in the household to make sure that things are fair, to make sure things are balanced, and that the bulk of the load doesn't fall on one individual. You have men who are they like, but ask her what I must do to help. We do not want to tell you what you must do to help. You have eyes, you can see what needs to be done. Making you a list is mental work. That is work. I don't want to make you a list. I don't want to make you a list. If you're going to the supermarket, don't tell me to make you a list. Open the cupboard, open the fridge, look, and then you can say, I made this list. Do I have everything on it? Then I can say, Oh, you left off that. Maybe. You know, you meet me halfway, but when I'm the one who's gonna make it, I could just go to Supermarket myself. I probably wouldn't have to make a list because I probably have a mental idea of what's not in the house. So that so then they're like, oh, but my can I please her. It's not you can't please her, it's not you're just not trying hard enough. I mean, you we you are an independent, capable adult. I would have to make a list for my daughter. I don't need to make a list for a grown man, you know? And that's the issue that sometimes men don't get. They're like, oh, but we're helping. Are you? Because if now you break down the task into it, if you break it down, not just buy groceries, if you break down the steps, if you take away the last step, which is buy the groceries, you realize that you don't really take away the whole task from me, right? Because you look at you just buying grocery, but there's a whole process into buying grocery. I have to probably clean out the cupboard to see what is there from what's not there, clean out the fridge to see what's there from not what's not there, make a list, right? Grab the bags, make sure you have the reason bags in the car. Because if you go to the grocery store without the bags, you don't sell any bags. There's a whole process. So if you just take up my bags, take up my list, and go to you haven't taken the load from me.

SPEAKER_03 9:38

So you give me a moment there to download. I mean, uh, I tell you to vent because I know that you know I'm not venting, you know, I'm not venting because I figured it out.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

So I I I'm gonna but I understand the plight because I had to go through it so that my husband understood the plight, and he does so well to him.

SPEAKER_03 9:58

Yeah, definitely shout out, shout out to Sam. But what I would say though is a lot to download. The first thing you're mentioning about the man-child syndrome and the fact that women are less find men less sexually appealing, and that one I found interesting regarding that study because one of the things that you the question that comes to mind is why wouldn't women find men less sexually appealing? And it do you think why do you think this is, and could it be that the fact that women are less dependent on men for satisfying their security needs, could that be a factor that's contributing to the less the fact that they have less libido and less desire for sexual interaction with their men, husbands, and so?

SPEAKER_00 10:46

Okay, so for firstly, I think what the research pointed to is overstimulation for women because a part of sex for women, it's a lot mental. You know, men it's a little more physical, it's a lot more physical. While for women, it's a lot more mental. So if I'm thinking about the 50 million tasks that I have to do, it's very hard for me to get in the mood. You know, and then when you know, no, no, sex is not a chore, it's another thing I have to do. And I have women in the clinics when we talk about sex and they're like, I just do it as a chore, I'm just doing it. Like, and then I'm like, it shouldn't be like that. And like, well, that's how it is. And then I would ask them, okay, what's the workload like in the house? And it's always that the woman is doing way more, and she's complaining about the same things I just mentioned, having to make a list in order for them to do the different tasks in the household, or they do it on their own time, which is they're like, oh, but I'm going to do it anyways. But sometimes you doing like, say I'm gonna cook, you washing the plates affect my ability to get my task done. So so even if you're like, but I'm gonna get it done, but then I'm gonna cook late, I'm gonna probably eat late. And say she's working on her weight and she doesn't want to eat at 9 p.m. She wants to have her meal, her last meal by six. You are throwing off a lot of things that you're not even noticing. It's not even just washing the plate because now she has to cook, now she's gonna eat late, and now her goals are thrown off. It's a bigger picture that you're probably missing, you know. So so it's not just that you don't find them attractive, it's just that the process of women's arousal, it's a lot of mental. And if half the more than half the brain space is on task and things we have to get done and child care, home care, husband care, there's not a lot of room left for you to be aroused and want to have sex with your partner.

SPEAKER_03 12:46

That's interesting. So essentially, you have already so many things on your mind, there's no space there now for more stimulation because you're already overstimulated. But so then it now causes you to wonder because you know my view already that the solution to one problem oftentimes creates another. Because it seems to me now that women have fought so hard to get into a certain space of being you know able to work and be contributing in a professional sense that now they have created a problem where now they're overwhelmed by roles and responsibilities, and it seems that there's a desire to almost move back to where they were before, where they're nurtured and cared for, and where you have a man who is providing it, it seems like we're coming full circle.

SPEAKER_00 13:39

Well, I can't say that I think we all appreciate having the choice to work or to stay home. We appreciate that choice, but we don't want when we choose to work, we're gonna be overwhelmed because you choose to work, so you figure it out, you need to figure it out to the household child and work. That that's not fair because you're also benefiting from my efforts of going out and working. So, why shouldn't I benefit from you helping out? And it's not even helping out, we're two responsible adults, it's not even helping out, you're taking care of your surroundings, you're doing what you're supposed to do as a responsible adult. So I don't think it's for you know, you know, when you have to thread lightly on that argument because it makes it sound like, well, women ask to work. So if you're overwhelmed, you probably should just stay home. When the reality is, most households cannot afford for the man to be the only one working with low, low income, low wages, that is not even an option in many households. But a man figuring out how to contribute effectively to his household in terms of the activities that he can partake in, how he can make the work load lighter for his wife, that's simple. That is something that can be done easily. So to instead wish us back 50 years when you can actually just learn how to go grocery shop without asking your wife how to do it, learn how to do it without calling her 50 million times to be the call. Is this the butter that we use? The butter that we've been using for five years, bro. Like, you don't need to be the call. Like, you can actually do this. It's not an impossible task for man to learn. Women have we've had to learn and evolve and adapt every time we have a new child, every time we've always had to adapt. So it's not unfair for us to ask men to come on, adapt. Adapt so we can live in a happy, peaceful home.

SPEAKER_03 15:36

So let me ask you because what you're saying is essentially that men, if they are not able to contribute in the traditional ways, then as a res part of their responsibility to the family, they would need to learn how to contribute in other ways. So you're saying that in the past, the man would go out and win bread and he would come back home, bring home the bacon. He wouldn't necessarily be shopping, and he would give the woman the money and say go to the supermarket and do the shopping and they take care of the house and the kit the kids and whatever. But you're saying now that the fact that women are also sharing in those responsibilities of winning bread and bringing home the bacon, then men should also share in the responsibilities of homemaking and taking care of the family. Right. Is that a reasonable summation of what you're saying?

SPEAKER_00 16:29

It is a reasonable summation, but I don't want it to I don't want it to be limited to just based on a man's ability to bring home the bacon, whether he should help in the household or not. I believe men are responsible adults and they shouldn't put all the work on one person, regardless. So even if you have a stay-at-home wife, that's a whole job that you would have to pay a cook, a driver. Uh, if your wife dies and you had to replace your wife, it would be very expensive. Very expensive, right? For persons who have stay-at-home wives. It's a whole job. It is a whole job. So I don't think because you're making a lot of money, it should just be your wife's role. I feel like decisions that you make for the family should be for the betterment of the family. So we can look and we can say, yes, my wife is staying at home. This is the time that she has to wake up. These are all the things that she has to do. This is a lot in terms of her mental health, physical health. We're making money. We can hire, we can outsource this. We can outsource that. It can be a discussion, even if you're not physically helping, meaning that you're washing the dishes or you're doing whatever, you can be the one paying for these kinds of help for your wife. But it's a decision that you both make. So she's not doing all of this on her own, even the little decisions that she's making. Because a lot of women they grow up in households where they'll never outsource. They will never outsource it. Give them all that work and they're gonna do it regardless of what it's doing to them physically or mentally. Because they've never seen themselves as the type of person who should outsource. Oh, I don't want a buddy, I cook for my husband. I don't want a buddy, I wash my husband's clothes. And sometimes it's for you as the man to realize that, oh, this is a lot on her. It's a lot on her. Let's do this. Okay, you don't feel with anybody cooking for me. That's fine. Let's let this person wash, let's let this person come in and do a deep clean, and you can do the tidying up clean three times a week or whatever. You know, it's sitting down with your wife and also leading in that regard. Because that your husband coming out the one's gonna be like, Whoa, like you feel protected, you feel loved, you feel careful. And in turn, you might get aroused. Who knows? But you know, science says you probably would. So that's it's not just a matter of money, it's about taking care of your partners, just like she's looking out for you, she's making sure you eat well, she's buying good groceries, she's doing all these things to make sure that you're okay. You should do the same thing, and it feels unfair when all the time you're doing all these things for the persons around you, and nobody's looking out for you, and nobody's caring for you. So I think that is where that balance is, not necessarily whether we shouldn't have worked or we should have opted to stay home because either way, both of them they're stressful regardless. Working, staying at home, both can be really stressful.

SPEAKER_03 19:19

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, yeah, you're absolutely right about that. If any man has stayed home and done the dishes and washed the clothes and tired of the house for one day, they'll realize that it's uh it's it's not easy, it's a lot of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 19:31

And add a crying baby to it.

SPEAKER_03 19:34

No, I mean, just one day of that is enough to make me want to go to work. So well, I think the bottom line though is what kind of love and care do we have for a partner, right? Certainly, when we talk about from a biblical perspective, I you know that my influence is strongly based on the scriptures, and the Bible says that a man should love his wife even as his own flesh. So literally, the kind of thought process and care that you'd put towards yourself is really what you really should be putting towards your wife, you know, your partner. So I think that is pretty much what you're you're pointing to. You know, one of the things I find interesting, Kim. So I was yesterday, as you say, was Father's Day, and I was having a conversation with you know, a friend of mine who is more of a mentor, older, she's an older woman, she's probably in her 80s now. That's very wise, full of sagacity, and you know, every time and she's witty, and you know, her capacity is as if she was 25 years old, right? And she was she made a point to me that I found rather interesting because quite often you find that men are missing from many of the traditional places of that of nurturing, so from the family, from the church, right? Even nowadays, you're finding men missing and schools, right? So the traditional places where children are nurtured, men are missing, and she raised a point to me that one of the problems that you think is happening is that a lot of the times women are too, she didn't use the word, she didn't use the word independent, but she's like I tried to use what she said, you know, but essentially she was saying that you know women are a little bit too proud and after and in fact sometimes arrogant in this day and age, and so therefore emasculinates men, it marginalizes them. The average man feels like he has to do too much to compete, and so consequently, he just shies away from the responsibilities and disappears. What do you think about that perspective? I mean, the aim here is not to try and it's really to have a holistic view of the issues that we're discussing. But I found that what you said was quite interesting, it holds. Especially from somebody who's been married for over 53. 50 something years.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

It holds merit. And I think it comes down to dealing with people. You have to create a want in the other person to actually want to do something. And you typically do it before by making that person feel important. And so you'll never get a man or anyone for that matter to do anything if you are doing it by belittling them, if you're doing it by chastising them. You'll never get it done. And I feel like sometimes women, they might be right, but not right in their approach. Because we agree the men should help out more. Okay? We agree men should be there more for their children. But cussing them out, calling them deadbeats, calling them all types of names, you know, chastising them for not helping out is not going to get it done. It's not going to get it done. It's going to leave two miserable persons. Right. You know? And I feel that women can benefit from learning proper communication and accepting help. I know women, we were raised by our mothers to be independent. We're coming from a time when a lot of women did not have opportunities because they relied on men who they thought who their parents probably found as unreliable. So to protect their daughters, they told them, you're not needing a man. You can do this, you can do that. So they come out into the world with that same attitude of we don't need no man. But the truth is, we need each other. We both need each other for society to run effectively. We need the feminine as much as we need the masculine. So this independent spirit, some persons would say it keeps women in their masculine energy. And if a man is around a woman in her masculine energy, then the only response he'll have is to be in his feminine energy, of complaining, of running away, of not dealing with the task, not leading characteristics of not being masculine. So it's very important that even on the quest of getting men to be more active, that we find the proper channels, the proper way of communicating it, and realizing that we do need men. We do need men. And the studies show that we need men because even though I don't take the stance of single mother homes, I'm going to use absentee fathers in these families. You have a lot of instances of children coming out to become criminals, coming out to not do as well as they should in life. And there are lots of studies to prove this. So it is clear that we need both parents in the household. So it's not fair to be like we don't need men. So I do agree. I do agree that we do need more men in the spaces. And I do agree that women can contribute to men not wanting to be in the spaces in the first place. Right. And I don't like to, you know, I don't like to blame other persons for other persons' actions, but it's realistic. If you don't want to be around someone, you're not going to be around someone. And there is always some accountability that each person can take. And a lot of times we do, women, we do use her tongue to run persons away. And you know I'm T woman, but I have to be real. I was talking to a friend the other day, and she was having some issues in her marriage, and they had a conversation. And in the conversation, all she to me, when she was relating the conversation to me, it sounded like all she wanted the man to do was admit that he was wrong. And I was just listening to like, but what would that solve? I mean, okay, yeah, he's wrong, but you've not voiced anything other than trying to force him to say he's wrong. You've not voiced how this made you feel. You've not voiced what you believe would have been a better approach. You've not voiced anything. So if all you want him to say is wrong, he's gonna be defensive. He's not gonna say anything, he's just gonna be like normal and wrong, and you just you're stuck doing this for a few hours. This doesn't make any sense, you know? So there's always some accountability to take about how we do things and how we get other persons to see things our way without chastising, without belittle. And I think uh Sonia Winter, a friend, the psychologist, she always said, complain, don't criticize. So, what in essence, what she's saying is when you do this, it makes me feel this way. And if someone loves you, they don't want to hurt you. So if you're not saying, you're not really criticizing, like, yeah, always do this, you know, do this in, you're this and you and you say, babe, you know, when I asked you to do the dishes and you took your own time to do it and you took forever to, you know what that meant for me? I felt like you didn't care about what I was saying in that moment. I felt like you were dismissing me. You know, I felt like you didn't understand the whole issue. Like, I'm trying to cook earlier in the day so that I can eat earlier, so that I can lose some weight, so I can feel more confident in my body because you know I'm struggling with that aspect. And then he's hearing, you know, and he's like, oh, he didn't see all of that. And now he can say, you know, babe, I didn't I didn't mean for you to feel that way. I really was just trying to zone out in this game, and I didn't realize I'm sorry, and you know, you work on it better the next time around. So I feel like communication is a big thing, and how we communicate and how we position ourselves, and if it's all rooted in love, then each party would want to do the best for each other. So it will get things done and move things faster along that way.

SPEAKER_03 27:55

Yeah, I mean, definitely. I think you raised some very good points there, especially as it relates to how we communicate things. I think what is happening now is that in the past, we have to be realistic that when women had less options for security, they probably were a little bit more cautious about how they would speak to a man. You know, if you knew that this man was the one who put food on the table, you are going to treat him a particular way because you know that keeping him happy is gonna keep you happy, right? And then now we're in a world now where for many women either they can sustain themselves on their own, or they are contributing just as much as the man, if not more.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

Right. So he needs her, he needs her.

SPEAKER_03 28:47

In fact, most of the cases now women are earning more than men. No, the statistics show that is where the trend is. Women are out earning men, and so consequently, now, and I have said to you before, we look at it from an evolutionary standpoint, the woman's main requirement for contentment is security, right? Women want security. So now, if she's already feeling secure without him, then what is it that's going to drive her to treat him in that way that he has grown, that he has evolved to be treated? You see, because you have to understand this the current situation that exists in most homes has never existed thousands and thousands of years of human existence. You see? So, what is happening is that we're asking persons to evolve psychologically in a short space of time, in the space of less than a hundred years, into a style of a kind of behavior for which they have not previously had to deal with for thousands of years. So, literally, genetically, men are not programmed to check the cupboard and go to the supermarket without listening. As much as I hear you saying that he's an adult, we have to understand that there are certain things due to our evolution of roles, some one gender may be more adept at doing than the other, and so consequently, now you know what happens now is how do we bridge that that gap efficiently? Because what now, why should you say, Oh honey, please and be sweet and nice when you're thinking to yourself, well, listen, I pay the bills in this house, I pay the bills in this house, I am the one who put food on the table. So why should I have to be sweet and nice when I'm in that position? You do you see you see the challenge that's coming up there?

SPEAKER_00 30:47

I see the challenge that's coming up, but I also understand that yes, financial security is women want to be financially secure, but we also want a household where we're happy in. We also want that, we also need that for our own mental health. Because in a household where we're paying all the bills, we're taking care of the kids. That is, even though we can do it, no woman really wants to do it. No woman really wants to be the only one providing in the household, taking care of the kids, even if we can't do it. So if that's not what you want, then you have to figure out a way how to get what you want. And maybe that is for a while, explaining it to the man and understanding, approaching it from with grace, understanding that this man probably had a mother that did everything for him, and all his previous girlfriends did everything for him. So, this that you're asking is completely new. And when you're approaching it with that in mind, you're less likely to get all upset that this is an adult. Yes, an adult that did not have the same circumstances that you had. You know, like women always say you meet a bachelor and you go and want to make bathroom curtains. Like, be for real, you expect somebody who does bathroom curtains to know how to grocery shop and make a list and not just come back with snacks. Like, you know, like think about it, it's not realistic. So, yes, I understand it. And I'm telling it both ways because I've been there, I've felt that way too. Like, these are adults, but then when you see the results on the other end, you're like, it's probably worth it. It's probably worth it to have the communication to sit down and talk because I'm sure a lot of times women are doing things that men don't like, and they're not, oh, you should know better. Most times they don't even say anything, they just accept it. And we're doing things wrong too. We're talking to them in ways that they really don't like. You know, we're we're belittling them, we're emasculating them, and they're not saying anything. So when you develop a culture now where we're talking and we're expressing ourselves, they might feel the room now to be like, babe, but you know, sometimes when you ask me things and you say it like this, it makes me feel this way, it makes me not want to move. It reminds me of this time when somebody did what, and I just don't want to act when you talk like that. You know, it creates room for both parties to work on themselves. So, yeah, I mean, that is that saying that is an adult and he should know, it's still staying in pride, and we're trying to come out of pride so that we can both move and get the home that we desire that kids can see to because the more we do it now, the less work the future generation will have.

SPEAKER_03 33:35

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 33:36

So we just have to do it.

SPEAKER_03 33:39

Yeah, that's an excellent point. I think you know, one of the things I've noticed over the years, so on average, I mean, depending on where you look, the divorce rates in most developed countries range is between 40 and 60 percent. The outliers, I think, like Portugal are so it's like 67% of marriages ending divorce, from what I've seen. That's high, that's high, yeah. In the UK, it's probably along the lines of about 40% of marriages ended in divorce, and still high, and it's still high. It means that one in two, if you know 10 people who are married, at least five of them at some point are gonna end up divorced. That's what the statistics show. And that's alarming, Kim. I mean, if I told anybody that you had a one in two chance of getting lung cancer by doing something, what would you do? You're gonna you're gonna you'll stop smoking, right? Because the chance of getting lung cancer by smoking is far less than that. And then so if it is that we're going to tell people to stop smoking, then why you know you realize that a natural factor that's gonna come into play after why people are gonna say, Boy, why get married? And that's what's happening in society now. In fact, divorce rates are going down, but because marriage rates are going down, you see what's happening. So it and unfortunately, as much as people might see this as a solution, we all agree that a stable relationship is the best place to raise a child, to raise a family, that stable relationships are the core foundation for a stable society, right? Because what we see as a problem in society started out as a problem in the family, right? You see, and so consequently, now there has to be these crazy discussions for why relationships aren't working, and I think this is probably one of the hardest times in history to maintain a relationship and to maintain particularly a marriage because roles are not well defined. That is it, roles are not well defined, and even if you have a business, you have a company, and people don't know what their roles are, it is unlikely to succeed. Okay, because people get in each other's way, so so when so you see this this the immense challenge that is there. I want to go back to that point about as you mentioned about pride, about how women and men interact. One of the things I have found is that quite often, so so there is a the statistics would suggest I trying to remember what the exact figures are, but infidelity is quoted as one of the most common reasons for divorce for divorce, right? But my opinion is that a lot of the times infidelity is a symptom rather than the actual disease, you see, because I have observed that quite often when men cheat, I think for women it's a little bit more varied, but often when men cheat, when men end up being sexually involved with somebody outside of their marriage, it oftentimes is someone who quite often is someone in a service kind of role that they meet the person in a service kind of role. So for example, we talk about a waitress, we talk about a bartender. In the past, when men were more dominant in the workplace, we said the boss and his secretary, right? Doctors and nurses, right? You know, we can go on and on. It's always someone in a service service role, and so you begin to ask why is it that seems to be such a common thing? And part of it is to the fact that the male ego, a man's sense of self and importance, is one of the main drives for attraction for men. You see, yeah, and so so quite often a man who doesn't feel appreciated and doesn't feel cherished at home will go to a restaurant and meet a waitress, and even though she's doing it because she's getting paid, he doesn't register with the you know he will go to a bar to drink, and the bartender is nice, and she'll listen to him talk and because she wants him to buy lots of drinks, she won't interrupt him when he's talking and she'll serve him, yeah. Because she wants him to buy lots of drinks, you see. So you realize that a lot of men are trying to recreate the system that they were evolutionary, evolutionarily designed to exist in. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_00 38:27

And I agree, and that is why you know when I started out talking about the making people feel important, making them feel like they want to do something, it's so important because everyone desires to feel important. I think if we're looking at why women cheat too, it probably has something to do with them not feeling appreciated or important as well, so or not feeling financially secure, whatever the reason may be. But a feeling of importance, it's important for children, male, female. It is important that the person say important too much times that the person feels like their presence is necessary for them to want to be there. And you know, again, it all stems back to how we relate to each other, how much we desire that the other person knows that they're valued. So you might have a partner who they're not contributing to the household in terms of household chores, or they're not there yet, and you feel overwhelmed right now. But I'm sure that person has value. That's why you are married in the first place. I'm hoping. So there is something that person contributes. So before you down them on all the things that they're not contributing, how about first appreciating what you're doing? I see you working hard for us. I see you taking all those extra overtime. I see you, I see what you're doing. You know, just acknowledging it. Before, if every day they come in, all they have is you never washed at the plate last night, you left your shoes less out. I mean, you have to be fair, it's going to be a problem. Because just like if you do all the things, you know, fathers have this thing that they do where if they see a scratch on the child, they make it such a big deal. If they see a mark or anything, they make it such a big deal. It irritates moms because they're like, hello, you don't see that we've been keeping her alive for all these years, but you know, see that one little scratch that you weren't even there, you know, like you know, it's the same thing. So the same thing that ticks us, it ticks men too. The same way how you would want to be appreciated for all the things you do. Men desire that too. And I'm sure they're doing something, I am sure, or then you really need to evaluate your relationship if you're not doing anything. If you can't find anything that they're bringing to the table, then you probably really need to evaluate your relationship. But in most instances, these are hardworking men who are coming in who are not taking part in the household choice. You know, so but if every time you hit them with the you left your shoes, you left your socks, you never wash, you never watch a plate every single time they see you, then all of a sudden they start to associate you with bad feelings and bad emotions. They don't want to be here, they don't want to be around you because all they can think of when it comes to you is just negatives.

SPEAKER_03 41:26

No, it's so true that you're saying that because you know, once you feel consistent consistently negative about a person, you don't want to be around them.

SPEAKER_01 41:35

You don't want to be around them.

SPEAKER_03 41:36

And and the funny thing is that you start out wanting to be around this person. But but what I put something to you, Kim. One of the things I have found as well is the fact that the perception of relationships vary from from according to gender. So when I'm and I and we've spoken about this before, when a man puts a ring on a woman's finger and says, I'm gonna marry you, invariably his thought process is you are perfect where you are. I do not ever want you to change. Perspective. That's what he's saying when they put a ring on the finger. For a woman, when she gets married, puts a ring on a man's finger, they give him the vows. What she's really saying is that Well, you're not perfect, but I'm willing to work with you. But I'm gonna fix you. I'm gonna fix you, right? And I've found that is one of the major problems in relationships because people do not understand what they're really getting themselves into.

SPEAKER_00 42:36

That's a fact, that is a fact, it's so true, and then you know what happens because women they're trying to get this wedding ring, so they're putting out all the stops, they're not complaining about the shoes and the socks and they're not washing. No curtain in the bathroom, they just go by the curtain and they just fix up the bathroom and they keep it moving, they're not saying anything.

SPEAKER_01 42:58

So now the man expects that's gonna be you for the rest of his life.

SPEAKER_03 43:03

Yeah, that's that's and that's and that's the problem. And so a lot of the times people come into relationships and they feel mutually cheated. Long before people cheat, they feel cheated. You know, in fact, I feel that people cheat because they feel they were cheated on both sides. I mentioned to you about how many why most men cheat and how many men get into problems because of the need for that motherly type nurturing that they don't they're not getting, they're gonna find it, or they're vulnerable to somebody outside who will provide it, even if they didn't look to get it. The fact that somebody's providing it, they become vulnerable to that person. But then now, on the female side, quite often I find the same rule applies. Women cheat because they feel cheated. Yeah, and it can be one of two ways. I've found one is that their natural instinctive desires to be is to be secure, to feel secured, to feel loved, to feel protected. It feels valued, and if that's not there, they are vulnerable to somebody else who can make them secure. So that's the reason why you find that many times women will go for men who have more earning capacity, who are if it and depending on their situation, it may vary. So if it's a if it most times it may be a money factor for security, but in the past it used to be a bravada factor, confidence factor. So women are attracted to men who will defend them. It's not so much a big deal anymore because we're not living in the Wild West. But it's still a factor. And then also the second thing that I find that cause women to cheat, they feel cheated, is if men cheat. So it sets up a cycle because they now cheat as a matter of spite.

SPEAKER_01 44:47

Yeah, revenge.

SPEAKER_03 44:48

So a lot of women do revenge cheating. So ultimately, you find that cheating is oftentimes a result of people feeling cheated.

SPEAKER_00 44:57

Yeah. And then sometimes men know that they're not at the space that the woman wants them to be, and they also make promises that they're gonna do X, Y, and Z, and they never do. And then the woman is like, Yeah, it's not gonna work out for me and my family. You know? So it goes both ways, as we're we've been saying. But you know what I believe needs to happen. We spoke about this the last time we had this conversation. It's been upfront from the get-go. Like, this is how ask the questions, ask the hard questions. How do you see yourself as a wife? And then answer the questions honestly, not like you're interviewing for a game show or to become Miss Universe. Answer the question honestly. Because, yeah, you might feel like going down the aisle is the most important thing right now, but I feel like staying married should be the most important thing. So answering the questions honestly can allow for that. You know, if I can be like, as a wife, I see myself, yes, I'll be cooking, yes, I'll clean, but I will not be the only one doing this. There will be tasks that will be shared, and we can share the task according to what you believe you do you do you're better at, you know, because you know, men tend to press better and then can do those steamy things that women probably can't. Okay, then you're in charge of laundry, you know. It can be what you like, it doesn't have to be like I'm forcing to the things you don't necessarily like, and then we can probably decide that we're gonna outsource the things that we both don't like. We can have these conversations from before, so then when we enter the marriage, it's not like, oh, I didn't realize that I was gonna be the one watch, cooking, cleaning, and the likes.

SPEAKER_03 46:41

You know, it's not a surprise. I didn't know you expected me to do all of this on my own.

SPEAKER_00 46:45

I didn't know you expected, and some women they're genuinely shocked, they're like, But you know, you know what's funny, they've been doing it on their own all throughout the courting.

SPEAKER_03 46:54

Yes, you see that you know, that's so much, you know, and it's all about values, and as you're saying, being honest about expectations because the truth is, if we're to be honest with ourselves, we are guilty of cheating people, we are cheating our the people we claim to love. Because, as you said, sometimes, especially when you want the relationship or you want the ring or you want the woman, you're you're doing what is everything in your power to please that person, and you're creating an unsustainable expectation, or rather, an expectation that you are not willing to sustain, you see, and then it always changes, yeah. They say it's a change. They said, Oh, you know, you were not like this before, but the reality of it, I was like this before, you just didn't know because I was busy tricking you, I was busy trying to get you to be with me, you see, and unfortunately, that's the beginning of many of problems in many relationships because now you're in this thing, you already made this vow, and you found out that this the person who you vowed to doesn't exist, the mask is off now, and this is the real deal that it's you see what I'm saying, yeah. And so the question now is how do you how does one respond to that? And the truth is a lot of the times people stick with it for many different reasons, whether external pressures that push them together, so family, religious beliefs, their own personal principles, you know, or pull factors that pull them together that financially for whatever financial reasons, the kids, right, until they get to a point where those factors no longer exist, and they can't, or the pressure inside the relationship is so great that it overcomes the push and pull factors, and so you find now that the relationship explodes and they go, they're separate ways. So I'm not saying so. The question somebody might ask, so we're saying now, Doc, is there no hope? Is there no hope for a relationship that started that way? No, there is hope, there is hope, and I'm gonna allow you to, you know, because we're wrapping up now anyway, but I'm gonna allow you to put in your point, your takeaway points, Kim. But I think it's very important that regardless of wherever you are in a relationship, even if it's at the beginning or you're in the middle of it, that there has to be a coming to Jesus moment where you say, Boy, listen, let us repent, let us talk about what the real issues are. This is the real me. You know what these are my expectations, this is where I see us going. This is the vision I have for us. And you tell me what you think, what's really going on, and then now can we really work things out, you know, so that I'm not trying to criticize you every day and to tear you down because you're not becoming who I want you to be, but rather I'm able to try and build it up because we know of an expectation. We all we both understand each other, we both understand what each other desires, so we can now become a builder, not somebody who's tearing down. I can accept you as you are, knowing that you're we are working for you to get, and you can accept me as I am knowing that I'm working to get better. But the bottom line is at some point we have to be really honest about our expectations, and we have to be humble enough to communicate it, and we have to be willing to hear. So, those are the three things that I would say: three H's honesty, humility, and be willing to hear what the other person is saying.

SPEAKER_00 50:41

Yeah, and for me personally, I believe that I agree with your three points beautifully. So I'm just gonna add on to them. So do what Dr. C says, and then it's resources. Just understand that you do not know everything, you do not know how to make everything work because as we mentioned before, it's the first time in history that we've ever been here where man and woman can contribute financially equally, provide protection. We can do it all. Guns are available, we can literally do everything that was once on one role, one person. Literally. So we can protect ourselves, we can provide for ourselves, we can do it all. But that does not mean that the other person is not significant. It's unfortunate that all along our roles were just tied to women's ability to nature and care and men's ability to protect and provide. Unfortunately, that's what we needed at the time to make it here. But now we're here and we can go much further because we lose the ability to progress a nation if we tie half of that nation to just being at home taking care of kids. We don't get their brain power, we don't get what they can contribute to building businesses and making inventions and all of that if we're tying them to the home. Right? So we both can contribute to the growth of society. So now we're here. How can we now lean on one another to propel each other instead of fighting at each other, blaming each other? Like if you go on social media, it's everything is an argument between race, between genders. Sorry. Male and female attitude, women are this, men are this. There is no winning if we're families at war. There is no winning. So, okay, we're here. We're here now. We've already made these vows, we honor these vows. How do we progress? And we sit, we look at what are the current roles, be honest about it. As a man, write down all that you do on your own or contribute to. And as a woman, you write it down and you look at that list. I promise it's gonna shock you if you're at a place now where things aren't where you want it to be. And then you can fairly sit down and say, How can we both make this equitable? It doesn't have to be equal because there are some tasks that carry a heavy weight than others, but how can we make it that the other person doesn't feel robbed, that the other person can't progress in their career, in their whatever, because they're tied to all this? How can we make it so that the other person wants to see me at the end of the day, wants to hug me, wants to spend time with me at the end of the day? What will that be? I know you're making a decision not just for you, but for your family. You're making family decisions. How will this make mommy the best mommy so she can take care of everybody? How will this make daddy the best daddy so he can take care of everybody? And once we're doing this, we're making family-based decisions. We're not sacrificing the family for an individual. Then we can start to make some progress. And then, okay, I want to take over shopping, but I don't understand this listing. Babe, tell me the steps that I need to take when I'm going shopping so that I don't have to call you so that it doesn't feel like the task is still on you. And you sit down and we have this conversation. You make a list, you write it down, and you say, okay, so the next time I'll do it this way. And then you can ask for feedback, babe, I did it. Is there anything I could have done better? There we go. Same for the woman. Okay, babe, I want to work better at communicating with you. You have an argument and you communicate and say, babe, I really tried this time. Is there anything I could have done better? Is there anything that I said that probably turned you off? Or and then you take the feedback and you work on it. Because you have to understand that you're not fighting against each other, you're fighting with the problem. You're trying to make the problem go away so that the two of you can flourish. It's not you against each other, it's you against whatever is affecting your family and affecting the ability for your marriage to last and to go the distance. And once you have respect, you have love, and you're able to communicate, marriages can go the distance. They absolutely can, and marriages are beautiful. I we know we can we're a team happily married over here. So I mean, we're biased, but it's proof that it can work, and I'm sure we both had problems.

SPEAKER_03 55:06

But we but having had all gone through it, the same challenges we're talking about, you know. So definitely.

SPEAKER_02 55:12

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 55:13

Well, Kim, listen, there are another wonderful conversation. Every time we talk, there is always some wonderful things dropping, you know, brilliant stuff coming out, inspirational. So hopefully, you guys will benefit from that. And we just want to say stay happy, stay healthy. Kim, take it out for us.

SPEAKER_00 55:32

So, guys, please leave us some comments. What do you want to hear us talk about? What do you feel about this conversation? What tips, what takeaway will you be trying? Let us know in the comments we want to hear. All right, until the next time. What's it again, Doc? We can never remember it. Stay happy, stay healthy.

SPEAKER_03 55:49

Stay happy, stay healthy. All right, guys, thank you.