Knowledge is your responsibility: Counter-Storytelling and Testimonios with Luis Alarcon

Join the HEARD hosts in their conversation with Luis Alarcon, Director of Recruitment and Admissions and Designated School Officer at Lincoln Land Community College, as they discuss counter-storytelling and Testimonios as a way to expand on dominate and limiting narratives about the human experience.  Individual stories matter, and this conversation explores why and how to make that happen in your work in higher education. 

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Hi, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Heard. On today's show, Portia and I met with Luis Alarcon, director of recruitment and admissions and designated school officer at Lincoln Land Community College. I reached out to Luis to talk about his insights into counter-storytelling and testimonials as a way to expand dominant and limiting narratives about the human experience. We talked about the myth of meritocracy, which is the idea that an individual's accomplishments rather than their social privilege paves the way for their success. We talked about how higher ed institutions can better show up for students and how much individual stories matter in shaping broader positive change. Please sit back, listen, and think of your own story and how telling it could make a difference. And remember, you can always reach out to her to share that story directly. OK, let's get started. Hi everybody. Welcome to another episode of Heard. I'm Ingrid Nuttall and I'm Portia Lamar, and joining us today is Luis Alarcon, director of recruitment and admissions and designated school officer at Lincoln Land Community College. Luis, welcome to Heard. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you, Andre. Thank you, uh, Portia, for having me today. I'm excited to be here. So, um, we're gonna, every time we start these interviews, it's always the same way, it's always the same drill. We would love it if you would introduce yourself to her listeners. Tell us about yourself, anything that you're willing to share so people can get to know you. OK. I'll do my best without necessarily writing a novel in the process. Uh, I'm a first-generation Mexican-American strategic and rolling professional. I'm also an educator. Uh, doctoral candidate at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign, finishing up my doctorate education with a concentration in diversity and equity. I'm a professional with, you know. Who through my uh lived experience is uh deeply uh has shaped. Uh, how I understand access, equity, diversity and inclusion, as well as power, dynamics and systems within higher education. I don't separate who I am from how I lead. Additionally, as you mentioned, I currently serve as the director of recruitment and admissions and the designated school officer at Lincolnline Community College where I oversee enrollment strategy, outreach, student-centered recruitment. Across traditional, you know, uh, groups from traditional high school students, adult learners, dual credit students, as well as international students. Last but not least, for me, you know, real diversity isn't just about representation, it's about knowledge. Or I would say it's about whose knowledge is trusted, whose, whose experiences are centered and, and how our institutions show up for students in meaningful ways outside of work because I do have a life outside of work or I try to have a life outside of work. I do enjoy, uh, road trips, traveling. I'm a cat dad, proud, proud dad of three kitties, uh, Marilyn, Creed, and Tiki. And, you know, my leadership, it's always about being relational and not transactional. I love, can you go back and tell me what you said, oh gosh, it was, it was a while ago, but you said you, you, you made a statement of how you work, with a statement that you kind of live by. That I don't separate who I am with how I am. Yes, I absolutely love that. That is excellent. Now, you've mentioned um you, you serve as a designated school official, um, which means you help with F1 students to maintain their non-immigrant statuses by staying in compliance with federal requirements. Can you talk a little more about this role and, and how we are in our current higher ed environment? Sure, we can. Thank you. That's a really great question. Uh, as a designated school official, certainly my role is to help F1 students and prospective F1 students navigate a highly complex, uh, high stakes immigration system. Where, uh, one misunderstanding can have really life altering consequences from, uh, not knowing how to fill out the necessary paperwork, providing the financial affidavits or the transcripts or even things such as, you know, the, the ability to demonstrate that they have the mastery of the English language, which is needed if you want to pursue an education in the US. I think that in our current climate, I'm paying close attention to policy shifts, enforcement patterns, and the emotional toll uncertainty takes on international students, but not just international students. I, I think we can also say on, you know, mixed. Status families, as well as the entire immigrant uh community, as we all have seen in, in the news, uh, we are navigating a very complex, tricky, emotional, and divided topic which is immigration enforcement. So more than ever, You know, my con, what concerns me it's uh the, how compliance, compliance can sometimes overshadow care, uh, reducing students to records instead of people. Uh, I like to also emphasize that, uh, one of the things that I'm able to bring to the table is through my participation of the public policy advisory Committee from Accra that also gives me access to the current legislation, legislation taking place in Washington DC. What gives me hope is the resilience of international students and the growing number of educators who become advocates, allies, supporters. And who are choosing to live with clarity, compassion, and advocacy, even within the restrictive environment that we are navigating. What do you see? How do you see someone becoming an advocate? Um, I feel like we, this is an ongoing question, but I feel like it is so crucial now, um, on people really seeking that, what do I have to do? What can I do? What, what is it, what is it to be an advocate? What do I need to know? Do you have any, any nuggets you can share with, with anyone? Sure. I think that in order for someone to take an active role, you have to demonstrate that you care about all things and to have the initiative, the initiative and the, and the willingness to learn. And to put yourself in a situation where things may be uncomfortable because you're going to be learning and you're going to be absorbing concepts where you may not be familiar with, you're going to be putting yourself in situations that are going to challenge your assumptions, your ideas, your beliefs, and that it's OK to learn that. You know, differences are rich and make us unique and are great ways to establish dialogue and understanding and that we can accomplish all of that with respect and with uh information and dialogue. So that's, that's the number one thing you can do to also recognize that it is not the responsibility of others to educate you, it's yours and yours alone. That is, I, I feel like out of all the episodes we've done, Ingrid, and we've talked about that. It can't get any simpler than that. Like there should be no argument on how it is to be an ally or someone to help, and it's just being a caring person. I, I thank you for that response. I love it. Well, I wanna also tie it back to something you said in your intro about um real diversity. I think there's a connection between What people see being represented and observing. Where there are, where there's absence, right, and figuring out how to be an ally, but I think for people that live in, let's just say like predominantly white spaces. If you don't see it, but you see in the outside world that there is Uh, that there is violence, that there are attacks, it's like you can't make the connection between your experience that is predominantly one thing to someone else's experience that is another. So, Can you, I don't know, either unpack that or take me in a different direction if I'm not, um, if I'm not seeing it, it the way you might see it. Uh, no, I think that's really great. Uh, I would say that that's where, uh, counter storytelling. And testimonials ferre counter storytelling, it's, it's a concept, it's a tenet from critical race theory and testimonials, it's from, from Spanish, in English like uh your testimony, uh, they're similar but not necessarily the same thing. Testimonials comes from, um, Latino critical race theory. Now, they both have different objectives, I would say. Uh, the counter-storytelling is what, uh Allow us to. Challenge those dominant narratives which are typically in white spaces or from people who are in positions of power, privilege, and status. And so counter-story telling, telling allow us to basically bring into light narratives from minoritized groups, from systematically excluded groups, from people of color, individuals whose stories. Have been often rendered. Invisible or neglected or simply just being told us it's anecdotal. So that's what country storytelling does. It brings into light to say, hey, my experience is as valid as everything else out there and it's not giving adequate attention because I'm not part of the dominant group, but it doesn't make it any lesser than the ones that are being accepted as normalized, OK? Now, testimonials are related, I guess, but this thing, uh, while country stories disrupt systems and assumptions, testimonials are deeply personal. OK, they are typically told in first person accounts share as acts of truth telling, resistance, and survival. They are not meant to persuade through data, but they are to be believed because they are lived experiences. So basically what I'm saying. I see testimonials as the heartbeat of counter-story telling. They both are equal partners and complement one another. Counter countertorying names the systems of oppression that are existing, whereas testimonials reveal the costs of having such system in place. So that um could not have been. A better segue from my question, and I, I, again, took all kinds of notes and questions. So, when you talk about the dominant narrative and I'm thinking about records and whose history gets recorded, right? So, How do you, as an enrollment professional, deal with the legacy of Archival stories. Projecting one narrative, right? Um, how do you bring other voices into archival stories? You have to be intentional. You have to be strategic. And willing to take a risk, especially you're working in spaces where there is a dominant culture or they are PWI where, where you bring Uh, experiences or, uh, counter-storytelling data or testimonial data, uh, may be seen as disrupting the system, disrupting the set of protocols and procedures that we have, but part of being an ally, part of being an educator, part of being an advocate is precisely to be able to stand firmly. And then speak truthfully and boldly about things that are happening. For example, uh Lincoln, Lincoln country storytelling shows up in how we challenge myth, myths, myths about community college students being uh underprepared. Or disengaged, uh, fighting the narrative of that community colleges are seen as Plan B or that, you know, if you attend a community college is because you have some sort of deficiencies we typically, uh, we associate many deficiencies with students of color as opposed to white students. Right? So, uh, communities, college students are intentional. They are resilient, they often navigate a more complex environment than their four-year peers. So what's important here is uh not saying what's wrong with the student, but what barriers do we design into our system. It allows us to reframe accountability from individuals to institutions and to really re-examine the policies, the protocols, the procedures that we have into place and ask ourselves, is this in the best interest of our students and not just of our students as a monolithic group. But if there's some diversity within students, your white students, your black students, your Latino, Hispanic, Latinx students, your, uh, not African, your, um, Asian-American students, your American native students, so there is no one size fits all approach. I am thinking of the number of times I have been in Meetings, process conversations where um student issues are being brought up and it gets, someone inevitably says, we're going for like the 80/20 rule, right? Like we're trying to serve 80% of the people with this solution or this thing and 20% of the. Exceptions, but then I do often think about, um, just because something is a small, even if something only affects a small number of students, sometimes there is only a small number of students because of all of the dominant narratives that have kept those groups out. So, how can people maybe rethink service to either perceived small populations or outliers, right, of the dominant process? Maybe you have examples of that too. I would say with adequate training, again, in a, with a genuine interest to To do good for other communities and for other student populations, this has to be something that needs to come from, from the heart, really. I mean, as you know, you can have administrators try to enforce, uh, let's say a cultural awareness workshop or a diversity training or an inclusive, uh, workshop or something like that, but you need to be able to have a buying. From the individuals who are going to be having this face to face interactions with students because if they see that there is real value in that, they are more likely to really take the training, the workshop seriously in a meaningful way where they can really reframe their interactions, reframe their assumptions and their biases because we all have biases no matter what we say. And so that's one really, one way that you can really continue to inform. Uh, the institutional culture that exists and that's how you can reshape how we talk about students, how we redesign processes and how we hold institutions and ourselves accountable, not just for access, but also for humanity. I actually worked at an institution and it wasn't a um. It wasn't higher ed at the time, it was um in a high school, a charter school that has, you know, charter schools alone, if you just say those words, they go through their own type of battles, but um that particular one model was one size fits few, and it was the idea of the same thing that we've been doing for years, though, the brick and mortal, everybody get a book, read the book, take a test, pass. Doesn't fit for everyone and we noticed that. So I think it's great to see that that ideology has now come into your world in higher ed and I feel like it, that, that needs to be contagious. Right. And yeah, when you're in education, you really have to consider many different elements from, are you taking a race neutral approach where you're saying, I don't see color, so I treat all my students the same. Well, that's a disservice in itself because every single individual have different needs. So, uh, that approach is just not gonna work. Being color blind is not gonna work. Or if you tell me that I believe in meritocracy, and we know that in an ideal world. That could potentially work, but we don't live in that, that ideal world. So meritocracy, that idea that your efforts alone is gonna get you as far as you want to be, it just doesn't work and it doesn't work because racism and inequalities exist in society and as long as we have all those different systemic barriers, um, just meritocracy is just not gonna work. Yeah, and that, and that comes up in the counter-storytelling and the testimonials, right? Um, and that, that makes so much sense to me. So what are um some of your counter narratives that would be encourage that would encourage listeners to understand and propagate? I would say that continue to have curiosity. Certainly. To have a desire to learn and again knowing that you have to do the person responsible for learning, there is an assumption out there that puts the learning in the hands of the minoritized individuals or people of color and that is just a lot and it's not something that should even be happening because what that. Does, it's, it creates this concept known as racial fatigue, which means that if you are a person of color, at some point, you get fed up because people keep just coming to you and are expecting you to basically Educate people and be the expert when it comes to things about your specific ethnic group and become the expert when it comes to matters of diversity, equity, and inclusion, and no one should have to carry that burden, which is why self-learning has to happen. If counter stories, uh, telling challenges the narrative, I would say that testimonial, you know, again, continue to reveal what is the cause of that narrative. You always need to come to the table with an open mind, with a desire to be challenged on assumptions, biases, beliefs, norms. And to not to take things personally because we need to be able to have a conversation and it's OK to disagree, but you cannot tell someone that their experiences are invalid. Just because you have never been in their shoes. It's a little bit harder to really understand what someone has gone through unless you put yourself in their shoes and you can really understand what sort of racial microaggressions, micro assaults, or micro invalidation someone has gone through until you can really fully comprehend what it really means to be in someone's shoes. So we're not in the same boat. We may be navigating the same storm, but not in the same boat. Have you been, can you think of some narratives that you have been able to shift either at Lincoln Land or Um, other examples through counter-storytelling. You brought up some examples sort of earlier, but I'd love to hear more. Uh, one comes to mind, and actually that's a professional one, and it's within our space within Accra. So there is the Latinx Caucus, right, which I'm a member of, and, you know, we meet every, on a monthly basis. And last year, we had a meeting where we specifically talked about this narrative about Latinx. And there's a lot of scholarship and debate on Latinx, which is an umbrella term, right? Some people argue for it and some people are against it. The ones that are for it feel that it's inclusive because it's gender neutral. However, if you take that approach of being gender neutral, you're reducing everyone's identities to just all about gender. So is it really inclusive? Most would say it is not. So what we did at the caucus was many of us actually did not feel that we identify ourselves as Latinx. I myself identify as Mexican-American. I don't, don't go around saying I'm a Latinx or Latino or Hispanic. But anyways, as part of having this conversation with other like-minded professionals that are part of the caucus, We all came to an agreement that we wanted to rename ourselves. We wanted to rename the caucus, and all of us were able to come up with different naming conventions or ideas. At the end, we ended up choosing the Spanish word, uh, raises or roots. In English. Why? Because we felt that although we have different cultural identities when it comes to the places where either we were born or we are second generation, uh, at the end of the day, it all originated in some sort of Spanish speaking country for the most part. So rather than to debate Latino, Hispanic, or Latinx, we felt that we are seeds, we are roots. So we made the decision to petition to the board of directors to be renamed as um Raises for the caucus. And so that was one idea of our countertory telling as well as our testimonials coming together. Because we felt that it was needed. Uh, that is, um, I love hearing that in action. I love that it is at Acro because I, I feel like it shows the power that the community can have to affect change for the community. And it, it also strikes me that in order to do that, you've got to have a fair amount of trust and safety, like a sense of safety in order to be able to participate in that. And I, I do wonder, um, so if, if the idea of the testimonial is, I have, like, it's deeply personal, it's first person, it is not rooted in data, it's rooted in experience. And If I am, is, does everybody does everybody have a place in giving their testimonial in order to affect counter narratives. So, for example, I know that I have I have reckoned with my own, as we've talked about on the podcast before, like, I'm a white woman, and there are definitely narratives about me that exist. And regardless of whether or not I might feel that because of my personal Experience as the child of someone who was incarcerated, as someone that uh was a transfer student, whatever my experiences, there's still a narrative about me. But I have always, I have reckoned it does not feel like my personal testimony. In a lot of spaces is needed. That said, having a conversation with Portia, like having a one on one personal connection and making a deep connection with someone, that might be more appropriate for me versus claiming, you know, the attention of a room, as I share this on the podcast that people are listening to. So, I'm wondering a little bit about whose testimonials. Matter in moving the dial of counter narratives and how should people reflect on time and place. To share theirs. Does it, does it matter who you are? I think it all comes down to the purpose of how you're trying to use country storytelling and testimonials for because this is not about whose, whose lived experience is better or bigger than the other, but this is more about like how can we utilize our collective and individual experiences to accomplish uh X, Y, or Z goal. So without dismissing, you Story in great, it could be used to support. Another counter-story or another testimony from a, from an individual from a minoritized ground because even though you may not be able to relate to, let's say uh an individual who just happens to be um Latina woman, for example, but maybe you two have intersectionality elements that you two agree on, right? Maybe you two are single mothers, maybe you two are from low socioeconomic background. Maybe you two were Um, I don't know, I have veteran status, serve in the military, right? So there are always ways to utilize um Counter stories and testimonials from People who may be from the dominant group in order to, to get an agenda moving. Yeah, I think that is a, a great how you said it because I'm like, Ingrid, if you don't share. Then the idea of. The other person giving their testimony, it is, it's It has to be a conversation. I think that's what it boils down to. It has to be a conversation. It has to be the, the seeing where we landed and how we got to where we got, even though we did, like Louis said, have some intersectionality or some commonalities. How was your experience versus how was this experience? Because when both stories are shared, to me, I feel like in listening to the explanation, I, I'm gonna be for real, I didn't even know that um Countersto or storytelling was a thing, so thank you. But listening to that and understanding the, the, the definition of it. Well, yeah, we can't make it to the next spot if you don't fully understand where I'm coming from, and I don't have an idea of where you're coming from. To me, I think of dominant narratives as the ones that have been told by the people closest to power, which I think Luis. Right, it's noted, and the whole idea of intersectionality affects how close you are to power. So if you're You know, even though I'm a white woman, if I have all of these other pieces of my identity, they, they might pull me away from that center. And, and I, so I do think that, um, what I, that safety, right? Like trust and safety have to be front and center of that, and I think for me, that is, uh, the marker of what matters in terms of What I'm asking versus what I'm telling, and I think paying attention, like the saying, read the room, right? Um, and, and again, to what you said earlier, like, be in the room, like, be in the room and recognize that um it might not feel like your room right away, um. I think that all kind of goes into the, the, the safety piece of it. Yeah, I mean, uh, without testimonials, counter-storytelling can stay abstract and without countertories telling, testimonials risk being isolated or dismissed as just individual experiences. So my role as a counter-storyteller is to honor the testimonials and to connect them to the institutional narratives that need to change. So I don't see this as speaking for people, but as helping. Ensure that their stories are not ignored, minimized, or erased. I've never put myself in a situation where as a Mexican-American, I'm speaking on, on behalf of the entire Mexican community or the Latino-Hispanic community. I'm only speaking for myself. Sure, some of my struggles or experiences or stories of success can be utilized to empower, to inspire. But never to speak on beh of an entire community. Have you done facilitated sessions on sort of um like helping people create spaces for testimonials and counter-storytelling? Uh, specifically on counter-storytelling and testimonials, no, I have not, but I have done. In terms of just general overview of power or privilege of diversity of equity and inclusion, more like your diversity one on one sort of thing. And now this is more like really diving into something deeper that I think it requires a much better understanding of critical race theory, Latino critical race theory, and other frameworks before I can really start telling you about all of this, right. And in order for that to happen, it requires that people are willing to show up at these spaces. That's, I mean, I guess that's what I'm getting at is it would be really kind of beautiful to see, um. The that idea be embedded into community spaces through Acro, right? Like, If we are all getting together, um, via conferences or webinars or podcasts or, you know, like that there's just so many opportunities for that to take shape, or at least inform the approach to how people understand each other and interact with each other, because when you think about it, you're going, you're like you're going to a conference and you're hearing how people do things, which is shaped by The people doing the things and the institution and the student population and how you have approached your work at your institution is is shaped by all of that. So just even um Like creating it as a, a thing to help people be aware of. I just, I don't know, it seems like something that's so unbelievably relevant right now in community spaces where people with shared interests are coming together. Yeah, and I don't think, I don't think you'll see that kind of a Presentations or trainings, at least not at the enrollment management or admissions, uh, landscape area, you may see those more of a kind of like the student affairs area. Maybe you go to NASA or CPA, you are more likely to run into presentations who may actually address something like this. But that doesn't mean that it should not be happening. Uh, now, without revealing the place, I do want you to know that I actually submitted 3 proposals to another organization that's all about enrollment management, but where I'm addressing, I'm bringing the topic of admissions and enrollment management with a lens of, um, Latino critical race theory, critical race theory, and I'm also utilizing community cultural wealth. To kind of like talk to my audience about how considering these frameworks in the, in their admissions practices, in the enrollment management strategies could be useful, especially if you are working in a Hispanic serving institution or minority serving institution or HBCU or you're trying to eventually become an HSI. I am so glad to know that you are doing that. Yeah, and I encourage you to uh see where this could land to be a webinar. And Acro, um, especially through what, I get, and I should not say this cause I'm part of the program committee, but whichever group is admissions, group one, I believe. Like, I mean, I hope that you're on that and it, and it could and should lead to some type of webinar about that and how you have it connected to the admissions side of things. That would be great. And Session proposal for our annual meeting.-- I think it would be wonderful-- annual meeting, yeah, yeah. Uh, so, and I, when I wrote this, I said in different contexts, but there was one very specific context last year at the, um, leadership team meeting in the summer, which again, if you listen to the last episode, P Portia was not at, um, I heard you share, we were talking about, um, I think a bunch of things maybe related to the strategic plan or other topics and what the community needed, and you, um, stood up and shared a personal motto of yours. Um, I would like you to say it so I don't butcher it. OK. So that's in Spanish and it says uh que no vibe para servir noserve para vivir which roughly translated this is what it means those who do not live to serve are not truly living. So, can you tell us how, like, more about what this means to you and how it shows up in your work? Yes, thank you. You know, I'm a practitioner of uh servant leadership and I think that as leaders, again, you don't need a title. You don't need necessarily an occupation. All you need to do is Put into action what you preach about. So, lead by example. So, serving is part of it. I serve in my role as a director. I serve ACR in multiple different ways in PPAG nominations and elections, the awards committee, and I'm part of the retention and enrollment management pack, I think. And so Serving, it's really what it's all about. Why serving? Because. It's really what grounds my leadership. It reminds me that service is not a sacrifice, but rather it's a purpose, right? Leadership is not about status, it's about responsibility. So for me, the way I see serving, it's Putting into action how my narrative, my countert or my testimonial, or my abilities, my skill set, my uh knowledge or training can be utilized to continue to elevate others, empower others, or inspire others, right? And so to me it's just um how you do it. At that leadership meeting, you asked me about that, well, how do you measure it? And so I think that you measure about the way in which you will lift others, not so much by what you achieve, but how others are being lifted, whether you are serving in a sponsorship role or mentorship role or even in a coaching role, you know, to have that opportunity, it's such a blessing. So it really, that reminds me that my role is not to be a hero, it's to be useful, right? And to find myself accountable and present for others. I feel like there's also a lot of fear. Like I think there is fear in being accountable, and I do wonder. How to Deal with fear and I do think it does come back to community and knowing that you're not actually alone. Like just because you're accountable or responsible doesn't mean you're on an you're on an island, uh, yeah, but it can feel that way because if you're the one who is. Sharing the testimony and you're the only one. And at this point in time, the people in the room aren't reading the room and then, and there's no ally yet. You know, you're on your own and, and, and that's, I guess I was gonna ask this question, a while back when we were talking, but how long or can you put some reality around the idea of counter-storytelling and testimonies? How, just because you may have said it once, doesn't mean that someone's gonna instantly catch on. Right. I, I mean, it makes, it's, uh, it's all about persistence. It's about being resilient and to be motivated to do this kind of work. And to really tap into your different forms of capital from CCW. So tap into your linguistic capital, your navigational capital, your familial capital. Uh, your, um, aspirational capital, uh, rely on your community. Um, if you are presenting in a room and you don't have the quite right of support, uh, just know that it may feel like you're alone, but you're not really alone because if things don't go as planned, it's OK. But you have your community, your set of peers that can support you even if things don't seem to be doing as they should. So, always know that. It takes patience and it takes time and it certainly takes uh individuals who have a desire to To tackle really uh inequalities and social injustices taking place, not just in higher education. Outside of higher education as well, you know, we have multiple individuals, our students and even professionals, you know, navigating situations where it's about shelter, it's about not being able to afford to afford healthcare, or, uh, you know, maybe they don't have a, a home right now, maybe it's a student navigating. Uh, mental health issues. So there are a lot of things that we don't know. So I'm sure that we have seen that phrase out there that says, in a world that you can be anything, be kind, right? You don't, you never know what people are going through. I, um. I have felt that so much the last Um, month or so, Louis, I don't know if you know, I live in Minneapolis, um, and it has been, so one of the interesting observations I've had is that When I lived here during George Floyd, we were all experiencing, um, the, the impacts to our community. I was working with people that lived in the state of Minnesota and Nobody talked about it in like the professional setting. It really barely came up. There were people individually, certainly who it came up with, but I was not working in the registrar's office at the time, and it was like, kind of, it was just in the, it was in the background. I now work for, though I live in Minneapolis, I work for an institution out east, and it comes up all the time. And I've been thinking about this, about how people in my direct community. Um, at that time in the workplace. We're not talking about something major happening in our shared experiences, in our shared lives, but I am, I feel like I have been giving testimony, uh, to a certain extent. So many people have reached out to me to tell me that they're thinking of me and they don't know what to say, and they're hoping I'm OK, and I've been able to share with them how it has had an impact on, like, me, me personally, my family, my kid. Um, cause it has, and it, it, so I think that that is that, that gives me hope because it means that you can find support and allies and community from farther away than you might think and sometimes it might be. Even better because they, people do have different experiences, so they, they are curious like you said, and they're seeking to understand. So that gives me, I don't know, that gives me a lot of hope. I'm so sorry to hear that, Ingrid. I want you to know that my heart goes out to you and to all the people in Minneapolis as well as in all the areas that have been affected by. Unfortunate tragedies that shouldn't have happened in the first place. And I'm glad to hear that you have, you know, individuals that have reached out to you, uh, just to check in with you because that in itself makes a difference, you know, and it would be nice if, you know, more individuals were doing that, uh. Not just with individuals directly affected like Minneapolis or Minnesota, but also those that are perhaps in areas not even affected but who, who are from the same. Ethnic group or, or, or background as those that are being targeted because you don't know how they may be processing uh what's happening everywhere else. Maybe they are being affected by it. They don't have to experience it to be affected by it. And I am always here to make something light, but that is exactly how you respond. She told her testimony. And you were able to listen and accept and respond to that. Even though, you know, I mean, I know Illinois has had some issues there too, more specifically Chicago, but not as Tragically as it has been in Minnesota. But I'm like that, that is, you know, cause people can easily go down the road of, well, you know, it's been, you know, just that. But the fact that you sat, listened, understood and responded, that is how, that's how this all works. Well, and it makes me wanna ask you what, so what you said in your response was also the understanding that There are people that are affected by it that might not be in that direct community. You shared as a part of your identity that you're a Mexican-American. So I like, how are you, how are you doing? Are, are you OK? Thank you for asking. I'm actually doing OK. Uh Within, in my role as a ongoing learner, uh, I'm privileged and blessed that I'm part of the uh Undocumented immigrants and allies knowledge community of NASA as well as the Latinx knowledge community of NASA. So those are two safe spaces that I can Go and um have conversations with peers, even in, even though they are in a virtual format, but are still, at least we are able to have these conversations where we can come and talk about how all of us are processing and dealing with the tragic events taking place because even though We don't have anything written on our foreheads. Uh, many of us are USA citizens, but because of the way we speak, cause some of us may have an accent because of our color or because of the way we dress, we are already anticipating being targeted at any given time. And so my colleagues and I, we talk about how many of us carry our passport cards, our global entry cards, our real ID cards, and, you know, you shouldn't have to, but unfortunately, We have to And sadly, all those things still-- aren't even-- enough. Right, because you could be told that they are fake. Yeah, this, I mean, I think that's one of the things about the events of the last month that has been striking for a lot of people is the, you know, the two people who were killed. We White US citizens. Um, Well, Luis When we talked last on the same kind of Uh, same thing happening in the world. Um, I asked you if you thought you made a difference in your work with students, and you said, absolutely. How do you think you make a difference? Thank you, Ingrid. I like the question. Uh, a couple of things. One, I'd like to I'm gonna make an assumption here, but I think that after Talking and sharing my. Experiences and my knowledge with the two of you. Hopefully, I was able to convey that I am indeed making a difference, but I can come up with a couple of examples. So, one is that Uh, recently, you know, uh, I was, uh, Given such a distinguished honor of being selected as one of the Tina Wagner, uh, engagement grant recipients, which is something that I think it's one of the highest honors that you can receive if you are part of AGRA because that Award grant in itself, it's all about service and to be eligible for it, it really means that. Your peers find you worthy through actions, not through words, so. I know that I'm making a difference professionally with, within ACRA, with, with the, with the membership, but also with other individuals that I have the opportunity to share my knowledge and expertise on a more of a day to day basis, such as my direct team or other units or individuals on campus that could benefit from, from the information that I do possess. I think that also makes a difference when, you know, the students that come through our doors here at Lincoln and, uh, really Go home with memorable experiences and uh interactions where they felt seen, where they felt hurt, and where they felt supported because that's what students are seeking. They're seeking a sense of belonging in a sense of mattering that. You know, we see them, you matter and that you do belong in this institution. I think that I also make a difference by the way in which I see systems and my desire to examine them and aim to change them if necessary. And that all applies in the manner in which we do recruitment in which we communicate with our students in, in how we define student success. So students don't have to rely on uh individual goodwill to survive, but rather knowing that there is a group of individuals who. have adequate training and knowledge to help them out in order for them to achieve their goals and dreams. So I think that I know I've done a well, uh, a job well done when the impact, uh, continues right after I'm no longer here. So be like salt, that your, your absence will be felt. That was hilarious. And also, uh, Tina would be so unbelievable, like would be so honored that you got that award. Like she would be honored to have, she would be honored to have an award with her name on it that you were holding on to 100%. Well, thank you. I've never had the pleasure of meeting her. But those are big shoes to fill, so I'll continue to do my best. You can trust me. Luis, this was fantastic. I, it has made me, I can tell that you've made a difference. I thought this is what you were gonna say. You've made a difference, not just showing how you have, but I would say you've made a difference to me and you've made a difference to Portia just by sharing this with us. It's got me thinking about the, like, how the podcast can serve as a forum for. How it does serve hopefully as a forum for counter storytelling, um, that's exactly what I was thinking. I was like, I, I feel like we do. I mean. Well, and we've talked about real, I mean, I even said, I think in the intro last month that we struggle with what real diversity is because There isn't, uh, we, we, we haven't had it all. We haven't had enough, and I think the framing of it as um the way that you framed it here. As representation is, it's not one and done, and so I don't know, you've reminded me that, that we can make a difference, um. Thank you so much, Luis. We are gonna have you on again. We're gonna go to your sessions and workshops at ACR that you're going to do on counter storytelling at your webinar.-- And we can-- submit it for you if you want. Yes, we'll do it all. We'll do it all. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. Uh, it has been such a remarkable experience. Thank you for allowing me to be my authentic self, which is also very important. You always have to remain authentic. And uh I appreciate the time. I look forward to seeing you both, uh, at New Orleans. If you will be there, I'll see you there. Please, let's grab a coffee or something. And, uh, anything that you need from mine, I'm always happy to contribute and to, I think that you can tell that I'm always trying to one way or another help out grow in different capacities. So don't hesitate. They're lucky to have you. Well thank you. That's very nice of you. Thanks for listening to another episode of Heard. We'd love to hear from you. Please send us an email at heard@acro.org with any feedback you have for us or show ideas. This episode was produced by Doug Mackey. Thanks, Doug.