Make it happen: DEI in action with Kylie Borges

Tashana, Portia, and Ingrid sat down with Kylie Borges, Associate Registrar for Degree Progress and Audit at Stanford University and Vice President of Diversity Development for PACRAO. This episode digs deep into the power of state and regional associations in DEI work; institutional commitment to DEI; and how policies reflect commitment or lack thereof to DEI. The conversation also dips into representation in popular culture, including film (fun fact: Kylie’s nickname is “Ky-MDB” for you IMDB fans).

Transcript

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You're listening to her higher education and real Diversity, a podcast sponsored by Acro. Hi, folks. Kylie Borges here. I wanted to issue a quick correction at the outset of today's podcast in referencing. The Incredible De I work by Lily Zhang. I believe I may have used the incorrect pronouns. Lily's pronouns, are they them? It's important to me to get pronouns correct and to be accountable. So, my sincerest, apologies for the error. I hope you enjoyed today's podcast discussion. Hi, Acro community. Welcome to another episode of her Porsha Tashana. And I had a fantastic conversation with Kylie Borges who is the associate registrar for degree progress and audit at Stanford University and Vice President of Diversity Development for PAC. We talked with Kylie about her role in Pac Ro de. I work in higher education and a lot about history of DE I, which is one of our favorite topics. I would love to do a whole episode with Kylie on popular culture in DE I. But we did manage to squeeze in just a bit of time to talk about movies in this one. We hope you enjoy the conversation. Let's get started. Ha Acro Community. Welcome to Herd. My name is Ingrid Nuttle. I'm Porsha Lamar-- and I'm Tashana-- Curtis and joining us today we are having a fabulous conversation with Kylie Borges from the Stanford University, the Stanford University. I'm saying that because I have my, I know it's because I have Porsha here and they're-- the only ones with the D-- we all met Blur Trademark. The Welcome to the podcast, Kylie. Thank you. So, um, identity is an important part of our conversation. I know we're going to talk to you about all kinds of things that you're involved with. And I know that your background is a part of that. We just want you to share a little bit more about yourself and your background with the Acro community as we're getting started here. Awesome. Yes. Thank you guys again for having me. Um So I uh I definitely have a lot of identities. Um I'm a queer, indigenous uh neurodivergent woman of color. Um I worked uh just in terms of background, I've worked in Higher Ed Administration for uh I think I just hit 12 years a couple of days ago. Yay. Um I've been at Stanford since 2016 and uh in my current role since 2019 have been involved in various ways with Acro and PAC R over the years. Um mostly really with affinity groups. Um And currently I'm the VP for diversity development, which is essentially their de I um person I'm uh, working with our Diversity Development Committee, um which is again, like AD E I committee. Um, and yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot to cover there. I'm interested in hearing a little bit more, maybe about how you got involved in your position in Pack Girl. And I know we use a lot of acronyms on this podcast because we, we sort of assume that people know things but maybe tell people a little bit more what Pack Girl stands for too. Yeah. Um So Paro is the Pacific Association of Collegiate Registrars and admissions officers. Um So it's kind of like the regional, a regional version of Acro. Um and how I got into the VP or vice president for diversity development role was a colleague of mine, Sore Giza, um who is on a number of different committees and caucuses with Acro uh really was, I can't even remember which meeting was she just called me one day or like had me jump on a Zoom with her and she's very heavily involved with both Packer and Acro and she was just like, I think you'd be awesome for this. I really think you should check this out. Um You know, I think your voice, your thoughts, these things. Like she, she really encouraged me. I'm like, it's really interesting because I, when I first read the role of, you know, what the VP for diversity development did for P I immediately was like, no it can't be me. Like I'm not diverse enough. Like it should be somebody else's voice. Like I, I'm not the right person for this role.-- Um, wait,-- what, what was, what did the role inquire, like, what did it, what did you do? What was it? So, it's, it's essentially ad e I role. So, like the, what the official bylaws say about what this role does, is it, I mean, there's a number of different sort of um short term things like you're in charge of managing this committee that um helps elevate identify um spotlight de I related issues in higher ed to the membership. Um So some of the work that this committee does is uh you know, we uh do monthly social media posts. We um also try to organize and, and sort of get solicit speakers uh for our conferences um to try to get them to, yeah, speak on specific DE I topics. We have AD E I book club. So we look at different things. Um You know, different topics. We do a book selection and then the committee also manages that uh we work with local organizations and nonprofits. We try to find a charity for the PAC gives back, um which is how we sort of get money for these local, usually school based types of organizations. Um And yeah, we have a lot of new projects this year, but basically the role of this is a board level role. For P for the VP for diversity development. And we oversee this group or this committee as kind of the primary work. But we kind of, yeah, serving on the board as well. And why didn't you feel like you were qualified? Really? Excellent question between everything that you just described you being here and everything that you said, that's about you. What gave you that feeling of? No, this isn't me. I'm not diverse enough because I am a queen when it comes to my impostor syndrome. I always joke that my impostor syndrome is kind of like this dark passenger that rides in the car with me all the time reminding me that I don't belong in places like um not reminding me but telling me because I don't always believe it and I try not to believe it, but it's, it's definitely something that I think it's, it's, it's always a struggle, right? It's sort of navigating where and how you feel like you belong. But I, for me, what I saw was I was like, I really want to save spaces for people. Um In my mind, I was just like, I, I would, I was seeing somebody else somehow. That was a, a better like diversity person for that role who is more well versed, maybe had like a phd because I don't or maybe um somebody that uh you know, who had been really involved, like way more involved in this kind of work um for had more years, like somebody that maybe looked different than me or had more, you know, diversity bingo identity than me. Um And so I, yeah, I definitely, I, I, every time I tell that story, people are like, why did you think that this wasn't for you? And like, I don't have a good answer except for this, this was my thought process. So it doesn't make sense. But I mean, but you know what this is, this is similar to a lot of people. Um I won't narrow it down, but I can only speak from me as a woman of color. This is the same feeling I get. And I felt like as the three of us were creating this podcast, we had those same doubts, you know, whether they were our own or put upon us as far as what are your accolades? Can you even speak to these type of conversations? You know, and it, and then I think we, we boil it down to why are people constantly trying to strip our experiences away from us? And this is why we're talking today and why we have this. But that was, that was the honest thing. And I think um in the last Tashana, I don't know if you were there but that the Black caucus, uh Ingrid, I don't know if you were there either the Black caucus. Um Last webinar Whitney West stated that impostor syndrome, I believe she said it like this, but I'm not quite sure this was my takeaway. It is not that we have imposter syndrome. It is just what you said, Kylie, we don't feel comfortable in these spaces because these spaces have never been open for us. So then we put on ourselves that, oh, I can't, I don't belong here when the space wasn't open for us to belong there. So, it's very true. I'm glad you're in your position. Thank you. I'm glad I'm in it too. Yeah, imposter syndrome is like discrimination at work in its most real form in spaces. You also use the word dark passenger. I do have to ask if that is intentionally a dexter reference or if that is something you came, you totally made a dexter reference. Yeah, didn't you? Ok. Well, you need to be really careful about how you use that and who you use that with. Um, I was looking on Packo's website at the committee history and I noticed that it looks like Paro has had AD E I committee or some sort of presence since like the early nineties. And so I'm curious about, I know you're super into history and that's something that we want to talk about more. I'm wondering if you want to talk about sort of the current foundation of how the committee functions with that history or like, what has grown over the years because 20 years or 30 years. My goodness, um, is a lot. Yeah. How old am I? Let's just, we just won't. Yeah. What is that sort of current makeup look like now within the context of that long history and what's changed along the way that you'd like to highlight. So, I definitely have been sort of focused in the, the now and so I haven't really gotten to, I, I'm slowly getting to explore some of the history. Like, one of the first things that I was looking at sort of uh coming into this role was um and uh was the, the title of the position and also of the committee where it's like diversity development because when I first heard that I was like, that sounds like you're almost trying to develop the diversity and like, that might be a membership type thing, like where you're trying to, you know, I don't know, like, see how we're doing demographically and like, make sure that we have, you know, uh what is it proportional representation across all the institutions or across all the different demographic types? So I initially, if you're just looking at the title, like, what, where did this come from? And like, what does it mean? And so, um in looking, one of the things I was looking at earlier, was it just how, how did this title come to be? And is this a actually what we do? And if not, which we and the committee generally believe that's true. Uh You know, what what would make the most sense? Like what is the right name for this committee? So we're currently undergoing this process of a rebrand to have it better match, sort of what we're doing. So, and I think over the years, you know, as we've seen different people move in and out of the committee, different ideas that have come up, like there have been some awesome ideas from this committee this year that I've absolutely loved hearing. Um you know, some of the things that we were looking at, uh one of our committee members, Erin Collins, um who I think just won a huge Accra award this year. I want to give her a big shout out for that because that was super awesome. Um She uh had like suggested that we look into um possibly doing a urm uh underrepresented minority, like spotlight scholarship to try to see if we can um look at whether we can do like a grant. Uh So basically giving free conference registration. So we're in the early stages of really figuring out how we can make that happen. Um But yeah, cer certain things like that, I mean, there was uh I wanted to take a look because I'm a little bit of a data nerd. So I wanted to take a look at the kind of do the demographic analysis and like who's attending our conferences, who's, you know, really part of the pr membership. Um because I've heard from a lot of, particularly women of color coming into these spaces and saying, you know, I just, I walked into this space and I didn't feel like I, I could see myself anywhere. Right. And that we want to change that. Right? And see like, all right, how do we make that happen? But we also are aware of these real things, like budget constraints and like, you know, universities can't and institutions can't always afford to send all of their people. Um And so it's really just thinking through, ok, well, let's, let's do a quick diagnostic of what's happening and then figure out what are some solutions. And I know these are kind of lofty goals. I don't know if I'm realistically gonna get to do everything, you know, that we set out to do. But um you know, bandwidth things like that. But um yeah, there's, there's lots of cool projects and, you know, one of the things we want I wanted to do was uh explore the possibility of AD E I like registrar and admission certificate because I know a lot of DE I programming and certificates is really this beautiful high level stuff. But I, I just, there's like a registrar and admissions niche that I absolutely love because we're in this great spot where we're configuring, updating, um changing deciding on different systems and policies and processes, you know, all of which affect the student and staff and faculty experience. And so we wanted to explore the possibility of having a certificate type of program. So that's, that's kind of not so much in the history but just looking at sort of what was done before and kind of just seeing what we do now just from the previous couple of, you know, number of years to now. And I don't know, I have again, a long list of goals. I don't know if I'll be able to do all of them. But these are,-- they-- sound wonderful and I absolutely love the idea of the uh D I certificate within register and admissions. And I would um if I would push a little further and just get everybody under that brother because we always separate ourselves, registered admissions, financial aid, all of that stuff. But no, actually we all work together. It's a great area that we all need each other. So I would, I would even extend it to them too once you get it off. But I wonderful idea. And I'm excited to hear, hear that come to fruition-- and-- remember because you just, you made a comment, you said, hopefully you'll be able to get it off if you decide to move on, leave your notes, let the next person behind you pull it up and maybe they can get this started, you know, because you have great ideas. You just don't leave the institution without those great ideas. That's a really good segue into one of the topics I know we wanted to talk about which was history. So Tashana was referencing a theme that's come up in the podcast before of like passing the baton and how people do really good work. But then when those people leave institutions or leave spaces where really exciting things are happening, they take that they can take that energy with them. So that's why development is so important like that history and legacy, continuing and persisting. Um And in one of our earlier episodes, we talked about the historical context of DE I and how like the baton has been passed sometimes in ways that have not carried the legacy of the origins of DE I in the civil rights movement and the black feminist movement. And I know history and historical context is something you're super into, particularly as it relates to policy. So maybe we can kind of pull all this together and have you talk about some of the history or histories you've explored in your work with DE I as it relates to policies um that might be familiar to our listeners or other things, other places you'd like to take us. Yeah. So I, I think with uh policy stuff. So I will say I'm in uh my MP P or master's in public policy program at Oregon State online. Uh What I've been looking at sort of over the last uh year ish a little over a year now um has been sort of how, how are DE, how do DE I programs, particularly in Higher Ed? How do they work? How do they function? Are they effective? What are some of the traits of really successful DE I programs? Um Why do certain DE I programs fail or not have intended like impacts or effects um and things like that. So, you know, I often I'm looking at different DE I programs and they're called different things. So I'm using DE I as kind of an umbrella term for everything under the sun and there's definitely lots of different names for them and a lot of different structures for them depending on the institution and its goals. Um But, you know, we there are certain programs like uh excuse me, policies like uh you know, how did the prop 209 which effectively banned affirmative action in California, how did that influence or impact certain things? Um What, how does this uh California Promise program work which was like meant to help with like low income students and like there was obviously more to it than that, but like what, what are these different kinds of programs where they're trying to engage students from various backgrounds um or identities and bringing them in, into, you know, higher education? Uh because as we know, these spaces are like this really awesome way for folks to uh reduce these socio-economic gaps um and increase upward mobility or opportunity um in really meaningful ways. So, I'm trying to both look at what's happening, what's happened before. Um because the reasoning I think throughout all of these policies that I'm, I'm looking at in Higher Ed, the reason to address them is all the same. It's, it's always the same, right? Like, I think back in 1965 when the higher ed, like in all the civil, like all the policies that came out of the civil rights movement um were amazing and we're all trying to mitigate these really critical and problematic things of the past. And I say the past, like we obviously know these things still exist, but like they were trying to mitigate these things. And some, I think it was just this a huge social experiment where they were trying to like find different ways to solve these problems. And so DD I programs Higher Ed policies, um they have just continued to evolve over the years in terms of what they addressed, how they addressed it. And a lot of these policies have been focused on increasing diversity. Um And I think particularly with students, right? Like that's, that's been a really big, like, let's let's diversify student bodies. What I hadn't seen or what I was noticing was that there is still a pretty big mismatch in how that diversity shows up in staff and faculty and administration. Um Doctor Sean Harper, who's a US C professor. Um in 2017, he was talking about like when students don't see themselves represented in anything except certain, like janitorial roles or like, if they don't see themselves in the faculty or they don't see themselves in these leadership roles, like, then it's just they, they don't feel included, they don't feel like they belong there. Right. Like we're talking about that but the not belonging feel and sort of how, that's so, really where these programs I think are trying to evolve. Um, Now are looking at how do these programs directly address not just diversity but also equity and inclusion. What are they doing for these other two like letters in the acronym um or beyond, right? Depending on how many letters the program has. Um And yeah, it's just been really interesting kind of learning about all the different institutions that I've been looking at and seeing sort of how they design their program. What are the specific, specific things that they are addressing? Why are they addressing those things? Right? Some institutions will just have, I don't want to say just like they'll have like a boilerplate like, ah this is what we're, this is what we're gonna do. These are like just a sweeping value statement, but then you don't see how are they measuring this program? How are they assessing it after so many years? Right? Like are they coming and checking back and auditing whether it's doing what they wanted to do? Um So yeah, just really looking at that has been fascinating and I, I'm really impressed with some of the um programs, especially when they do like annual reports. And they're like, I just love that. I love accountability and transparency. So um yeah, that's, that's did that answer your question? Sorry. I know. I like sometimes get like, yeah, no, I think, I mean, I think you gave us a lot of different threads to explore. 11 of the things you said that we've been thinking about is so you have these committees um that are working like there's a lot of diversity and equity committees and offices and people doing work, there is work that's happening, that work is happening from within systems that are inequitable and that enforce and live in equitable practices. One of the things we talked about in the history of D I episode was about the difference between that and revolution. And I guess what I'm wondering with what you're sharing is how can we get closer to revolution within committee structures or um VP for development of diversity positions? How can we get closer to revolutionary acts while working within systems? It's a really, really good question and I, I think that it's, it definitely weighs on me because I mean, I work at a, in a predominantly white institution that's been around for over like, I don't know, 100 something years and I should know that. Sorry. But um if they've been around for a while and a lot of these institutions have been around for a while and like with Packer, I think it was uh you know, we, that's been around, I think we make 100 years this year. Um So there's, there's a lot of different institutions and I think it's not easy to topple these systems and sometimes incremental, it still works. But I, I'm definitely of the opinion that like, I want revolution, I want this drastic change. I am a millennial. Um I'm loving the Gen Z Vibe where they're like, you know, tear it all down, make it happen today. Like I love that energy and I, I am thinking about how do we make that happen? I think what's, what's, there's a number of things that are necessary. I think the first is I, I think we need to see more of these like all spaces genuinely be like more diverse. I, I mean, I think we, you look at um I think there was a study in 2017 or 2019 where they were looking at university and institutional leadership was still like something like 60 or 70% like straight white male. And you know, it, it makes iii I can't say that there's any one specific identity that is or isn't a problem. But it's like when you don't have that diversity, there's a lot, there's some we know that that's problematic, adversity, not having diversity has financial consequences in businesses. Like you can lose money. I mean, you can lose your retention and, and your employees because especially like millennials and gen Z, they're going into these workforces and employers ask like they want to make sure that their employers are walking their talk when it comes to de I especially diversity. Like, so there and, and when you're talking about in higher ed, like students perform, I think 50% better in one study. I was checking out um during one of my papers when they see themselves reflected in all of the different spaces and that's like a huge deal. So it's like, I believe that that's necessary not just in sort of how we talk about inclusion um or diversity, but also in genuine inclusion in the sense that it's like when you have these people who feel like they belong in these leadership roles who belong and are in these spaces and can contribute meaningfully in these spaces um to de I directly, right? To have these perspectives. Um It's really, it's awesome to see that. And so it's like having the diversity is critical for that. I think the other big thing um is I had a friend, tell me once, show me your institutions, like what is it like? They show me their, how they spend their money and I'll tell you what their priorities are and it was something that stuck with me because I'm like, that's so true because how many times have we heard of like AD E I, like, they'll, they'll say, oh, we got this new DE I program or whatever. And then they have like one person for the whole institution and they have like 30 minutes, they are allowed to take up of people's time and like, there's no leadership commitment. So it's just like, I think really investing in these kinds of like the institution has to be willing to commit its, its money. It's, it's time, it's um priorities as an institution. This has to be all linked and it has to be front and center. Um So yeah, having the diversity, putting resources where they belong. Um If they mean if they genuinely want that change, like it has to be those, those two things are the bare minimum. Um There's obviously a lot more I'm thinking about but like those are the, the two big ones I think is throw money where put the money where the mouth is? Show me the money-- when-- you uh II I heard you say that, I mean the Eager Beaver, that's how I like you want this and you want it now and I am there with you. However, we do know that that is not how these institutions work. Um And my question is how do you not get, I guess burnt out, defeated all of those feelings that happen when that change is not coming as fast as you would like. Oh, that's such a good question. Um you know, I think that that's, it depends on the day honestly. I mean, I think what is the, what has been the biggest thing? Because I asked this question, a lot of people that not only practice, well, primarily people that uh practice dei, I asked this exact question. Um And it's really interesting to hear what people say, but the gist of what I feel like their answers are, is centered in, I, I tried to build community like having like, if you can't get it where you're working or where like, whether it's a professional organization or in your current role, um If you can't find it there, it's like you have to find it somewhere and maybe that's like through a church organization of like, it might not even can be at your institution, right? It might be somewhere else but being able to balance, right? Because we know it's just like, you know, we say burn out and we say like what it's like working at these institutions like Stanford did um what is it their campus climate survey? And you know, they're as part of our ideal. Um I should know what this stands for. It is essentially our DE I program. But they did this huge quantitative and qualitative sets of data around um what people were reporting with experiences and to no surprise of anyone of color, like there was such huge, huge um feedback about these people feeling so incredibly excluded in their spaces. Um And, you know, with like black women reporting the biggest sort of discontent with and experiences around this where it was like microaggressions, macro aggressions, outright discrimination. And like, one of the interesting questions that they had was how do you like or what have you considered as a result of this? And some of these things include leaving. And I think the number was something like 40% of people that have experienced this, at least at Stanford. And for that report had considered leaving their jobs and leaving Stanford. And it's like that was just to me, I was like, that was both validating and, and horrific at the same time, which is like these people shouldn't, like nobody should be experiencing this. But when I talk to people about, because again, when I'm talking to other B pops, I, I don't, I have not talked to any bioc at Stanford or anywhere else at any other institution, at any person I've connected with at a regional or national organization. Um That's in higher Ed that has not shared an experience where like, like this, where microaggressions, macro aggressions, whatever. Um And the people that I hear are, you know, when they're able to stay in the role, like, sure you can say if I'm getting a lot of money in my job, like that's maybe enough for me to stay. But it's like, it's really, that's not enough for a lot of people and it's like some people will take pay cuts to go find community or places that are safer because we're spending so much of our time at work, you know, and if we're experiencing these things that's we do get burnt out. Like, right, we are burning out of way faster rates than I think, you know, counterparts that are not part of a marginalized community. And so I think what it boils back down to is community building, like finding community spaces, investing your own time in community spaces and really creating healthier. And I don't want to say work life boundaries because it is kind of cliche, but it's like creating healthier um boundaries, I think with just how you interact with work. So like um if, if that's where it's coming from, right? I keep referring to work. But like if it's coming from an organization, whatever, it's like, you have to be the one to decide what your mental health capacity is, what you're, what you're willing to accept. Um And even if you're willing to address something, right? Because it's not um like if you see something happening in a certain space, it's like it can be incredibly triggering and traumatizing for people to experience it, especially when we know that these, we're not just experiencing this at work, right? We're experiencing this at the grocery store, we're experiencing this when we're driving to work or like to anywhere we experience this in every space in our life. It's not something that just turns on when we get to work. And so it's like we have to decide what we're willing to, you know, and some days we can show up and be like, I, I'm not gonna correct this micros and I'm not gonna correct this person that just man interrupted me or mansplained me or white explained me like I'm, I don't have the energy today, not today. Like that's, yeah, we just got to build community and find the space highly. One of the things that um I don't think this is a question. I think it's maybe just a reflection that I'm interested in the rest of you commenting on is the, the toll that being in those spaces has on someone individually. And if you do choose to stay because you have found community or you're finding community, it, it still wears on you and wears on how you show up to work. And so there's also this expectation that if you, if you can find communion, you can dig in and you can stay that you are still performing at some level that is peak when the environment is not setting you up for that on one of our most recent episodes, um Rock hall talked about how, you know, people come into meetings and spaces and say things that are not like reflective of their best self all of the time because we're people and that's who we are and that depending on who you are and what your identity is, how that is received can be vastly different. So I think the thing I'm reflecting on is that even when you stay and you put those boundaries in and you take care of yourself and you're like today is not the day I'm gonna do that. There's no change in what is expected from you. And that, that is another way that someone's energy and just ability to show up and just do a job to feed themselves and feed their family that, that can be drained from you. Um It just all feels very out of whack. It does and then you, you layer on to that, that it's not just like, oh the same job and performance they're expecting, but sometimes you're expecting there's a double standard and you're expected to do more than what your counterparts might do, right? You might be held to a higher standard than some of your counterparts where it's like you're not just having to show up and be at max capacity like in terms of like show up and give your 100%. Um There is an unspoken, I think expectation of um you know, I, I keep going back to like, particularly women of color that like, you know, in terms of like thinking about how we communicate, right? We can't get angry, we can't have reactions to things because then it's like we, we know what the tags that come with that. Right. Like, um, in terms of like, oh, that's unprofessional communication. That's unprofessional tone where you might be communicating the exact same point as like a white counterpart. Um, and maybe even in a less, you know, emotional, like, whatever kind of way and you could still be the one that gets sort of the hand swack, like saying, hey, no, actually I'm gonna hold you accountable for this or like, you didn't meet my standards for this. And it's like, uh it's just, it's really interesting. So it's like, yeah, I, I think that definitely resonates about just like what that, what that looks like. I mean, I definitely have tons of experience with that and sort of the, the various roles and career uh jobs that I've had um in my lifetime. And I think it's, yeah, I think a lot of people have that kind of experience. I'm curious to hear like how Tashana and Porsche-- have experienced that as well or, or what their thoughts are on.-- I don't want to step on you, but of course, I've experienced this stuff whether I knew it or not as I have explained in earlier podcast. Um A lot of I, I feel like I was just naive and that's sometimes when you enter the work, first world that young you are. Um And, but I, I think a part of me and Tasan to please tell your story, but a part of me wants to ask the question because I feel like it's not talked about enough is what is the role of the ally? What do they need to do? What should they do if they see this? Um these or if, if you know AAA coworker who has now become a, a friend, a confidant comes to you and says that those are, are issues they're having, what, what can an ally do? You know? And I, I just feel like we don't talk enough about that. Um I feel like a lot of webinars or de I webinars microaggression 10110 twos that I've gone through there is still no takeaway of what does the ally do? Yes, we understand what microaggression is and everything. But, but what if you're in an environment or a culture where there is no ally? Then what do you do? Which I can say that that has happened to me. And as we know with the episode with Rock, I was a fear, you know, if it's not working for me or if I don't feel valued or my voice is not being heard. I'm leaving. Yeah. And I think, I think that you should. But my question also lies with what if there's no ally because I didn't know how to be an ally. Like I don't, that's, that's just my thought at this moment. But um I, I know you can relate to Shauna to what Kylie was saying, yeah, definitely can. Um So yes, at one of my institutions, I may have thought I had an ally but, and of course, the ally didn't look like me because there was nobody there that looked like me. And it just again, I just like Rock said, I went home and said, yeah, it's time to go so pack myself and just leave. Is that a good choice? No. But did it make me happy at the moment? Yes, because it was just not a good space for me to be in. And then I know, you know, like you said, Kylie, you hear all these angry black female or she's yelling and you're not yelling, you're just monotone. But I said the same thing that Karen said, but it was taken different when I said it. So you know, I, I agree with you and I understand what you're saying. I do want to challenge something you said to Shana, you said that the choice to leave. Was it a good one now? And II I don't agree with that because I think that it wasn't, it was the right choice. It was a good choice because like I, I mean, if you have to put like what is, what is that saying? Like you have to put your own oxygen mask on before you help other people. Like you can't, the same applies to how you approach your work, right? Like you can't, if you can't, if you are constantly being put, like, in this position where you are having to fight every part of, in every part of your day with these micro or macro aggressions or outright discrimination. Like, it's like you have to put your mental health and your well being before all else. And like, at the end of the day, these jobs, well, I don't want to say all these employers are terrible but it's like the end of the day, it's a business they can, they will replace us so quick. They don't care. Like in that sense, like maybe some specific people care or some organizations will be like, yeah, we care, you know, they might even have programs that are like, hey, we, we support your mental health and well being but like nobody else is gonna care for our own, our own selves but us and it's like if, if you're not seeing yourself represented, if you are not feeling included, if you are feeling just ick at work, it's like that is always the right choice. Like whatever you decide is right for you is the right choice is where I was going with that. So I just wanted to that, please take it. Um The comment about being an Ally Porsche. I think one of the places I have come to is it's important to act like being a coconspirator is like my life depends on it. My well being, my happiness like selfishly the, the world isn't a good place for me. My workplace isn't a good place for me. If it is not good for people who are different than me, for people who are neurodivergent for people, like ableism hurts me. It doesn't just hurt someone who doesn't have the same who needs other supports than I do. Um Rhonda Kitsch, current Acro president, one of the things that I've heard her say many times when she is in conference sessions, um large speaking spaces where people don't use microphones is it isn't, you know, people say I don't need to use a microphone because I can project, I can use my voice. And because it's a nuisance for someone who is not used to doing it, it's a habit they haven't developed and she has done a fantastic job in those spaces of saying, well, it's not about, it's not about you. It's about everybody else. And my yes. And to that is, it's also about me because it helps me be heard when someone else is talking and I can't hear them. It helps me. And I think there is like this flip that needs to happen for people where you need to act like your life depends on the well being of everybody else. Like we won't, we will not survive as a species. If we are only focusing on this incredibly narrow band of human beings that we find like affinity with based on what they look like, or what their abilities are or who they choose to love. You know, when you say that you have people that walk around with this sense of entitlement and they act on that sense of entitlement and nobody else matters for those people. So how do we get past that part? I, I wanted like, just validate both of those, both of those statements so, so much because I, I can't remember where one of the research things that I was uh one of the, one of the things I came across during my research was trying to understand like, how, how do we approach it? How do we handle that? And like um to your point, Ingrid, like there are, there's studies out there that show that when, when we are addressing the most oppressed the people. So like that would be, what is that black trans women when we were taught? Like when we pick somebody or a group of people or, or uh identities that are experiencing the most um worst violence, oppression, whatever, when we're, when we're uplifting and supporting, even if we have no, we are not trans, we're not a woman, we're not black or a person of color like it when we are supporting them, all of everybody else that is in another marginalized identity is naturally like can come up with, right? Like if, if we are not supporting these most marginalized communities, then what's to say that if we let that slide, like they're gonna not come for the next, the next level or the next group of people. Kylie. Did you? What dealing with registrar policies? What is the most interesting historical policy that you have come across that? I, I either you have um addressed and changed or that an institution is still doing? Oh, that is such a good question. Um Oh my gosh. I don't even know where to start with that one. It's uh I think that what one of the things that I think initially piqued my interest in sort of the policy space was looking at what language we used in the bulletin, my mom. Um And so they not everybody in my family has a degree. And so, you know, the people that do, it's like, you know, my mom went to college and it was great, but like we had very different experiences navigating college and university. And so it's like, I don't know how much I could genuinely like, rely on all the information that was there. There was a lot of information I had to get on my own. And one of the challenges I had as a student was trying to understand some of this, like university jargon and like under like making this make sense because some of these words were just like, too big for me or like, you know, I'd have to like Google every other word or like, you know, pull a dictionary out or something like to try to understand what they were trying to say. Um And, you know, it, it made that didn't feel very inclusive, it didn't feel very accessible. Um some of the information would be scattered or like, there would be bad information on one page or the other. And like, what I found sort of throughout my career is there. It was interesting because like, legacy students, students that came from families that had multiple, you know, multiple people had earned degrees, often were able to help, you know, or they just had better access to information as students, right? Like they maybe their parents or their guardians or like, I don't know, aunts, uncles, grandparents, whatever were able to offer advice off, you know, I don't know, a generic conversation over dinner or something and like would have a, a step that could help them or like intervene on their behalf, you know, parents like to, to get involved and, and reach out sometimes. Um And so for me, in terms of policy, it was more so just accessibility. Like what, how is our, how do we approach our bulletin? How do we approach how we write our content on our web pages and like expanding that not just beyond the students experiences, but what are, what are the student services officers is what we call them at Stanford, but like at in other organizations, other institutions, the advisors, how are advisors consuming this information? Because we're also like, sure some of them might have phd S and stuff. But like other people, like, we know there's a lot of entry level pathways that come into higher ed, especially in administration. And it's like we have to make this, these policies accessible and clear for everybody so that people aren't walking away with 12 different understandings of something. Um So I think that, that like just assess um inclusivity accessibility um and how we, how we write policies and how we write different things like that's really critical and I think sort of connected to that um not just the legacy element, but also um when you have a policy that, you know, again, with the legacy a little bit, it's like if a student doesn't know that it's OK to like, let's say petition a policy or, or ask for an exception, like things like that where they don't know that they can do that like that they have the right to as a student because it's not clear, right? Like trying to level that playing field in a way that like it, it's better so everybody can if they need to, I mean, not in the sense it was just like, all right, well, that should become a rule if it's an exception for everybody, but like understanding even just how to navigate college as a space for students and for some of the advisor, like, um I think that, you know, I've, I've done a few, sorry, a secondary thing I'm thinking about is like, doing records, um reviews, like when a student is returning or trying to do a retroactive degree control from, you know, the 19 forties and like, looking at those bulletins and it's very gendered language. Like you go into like the engineering um programs and you're like, it's all he him, he him, he, him, then you go to like nursing and it's like all she her and it's like this feels very specific and it's like, so, you know, the bulletins are like, e like, never thought about that. But that is, I mean, I never really thought about that. But yes, try, try to go, look back at like a 19, I think like pre 19 fifties. Like you just go and look at, look at some of the majors, some institutions I think were better than this and they'll be like the student, right? That's like the safest way to go is the student. Um, but I mean, I think even some of our websites now it's very binary. You go to like, there's a bunch of pages on Stanford, like, all over the place that we're still slowly trying to change over from, you know, the student she or he, and it's like, no, no, no, no, that's not. It's, it's they or the continue to use the student. You already had it in the sentence, you say they, that's,-- that's-- how, you know, things have evolved because you got to even remember when we were in high school, they put all the girls in home a orpin and put the boys in wood shop. So you just got to, you know, we are, the world is evolving. Sewing. Exactly. But that's how they separated us. It goes back to the colors, pink and blue. Exactly. So true. Super quickly. There is this, um there's a Stanford grad named Debbie Sterling that she created this company called Goldie Blocks. And it was like, I remember doing a research paper for my MBA a long time ago where it was about like, I was exploring like gender-based toys. Like where did this come from? How did this become a thing? And she created this company Goldie Blocks, which was intent on like she wanted to understand why girls weren't engaging more with STEM toys. Like why aren't they buying? Like, is it really because of how we market things or whatever? And like anyway, she ended up building this whole toy series and video series on like different engineering principles. But bringing in what are, what are some of the learning um methodologies that are effective for like young girls, which was around storytelling. And so she anyway, it was a really cool thing. I was like, this is, this is why. And I'm like, it's a woman that came up with this and I'm like Goldilocks is off like I love it so much and I, I love, she had an awesome ted talk looking at sort of what her experience was as a student and what it has meant to, you know, become a parent, like, you know, for her and like how that, what that meant in terms of what, what do I want to give back to the world with this? Um, and it's, yeah, it was really cool. Um, sorry, I just, sorry, there's one more thought I had and I'm going to shut up but it's uh we're interviewing you, you don't, you don't have to self-- policing-- because I ramble. But it's um you know what we were talking about early earlier with um Ally ship, um Ingrid when you were talking about like, you know, becoming uncomfortable and finding ways to like, how do, how do you show up for people? I think, you know, just being uncomfortable is, is part of, it's part of the deal. It's, it's, but it's also like, I like to think of it too is like, it's also just learning, um Eric Abrams, the person I mentioned, that's the chief diverse. The officer at N PR talks about like positive curiosity, right? Like leading with that positive curiosity and trying to say, I want to learn more about something that I don't know about, right? We do this with a lot of stuff, right? If we go on Pinterest and want to learn a new recipe, like, you know, it's, we might have never used those ingredients before. We might have never dealt with that. But it's like we are, we are, we are prioritizing, learning how to do that. And I think that it's so important, um, when people allies, whatever are trying to get yes, out of their comfort zone, but just are open to that learning. We are working in higher ed. So it's like, come on, I get it together but it's like, you know, to, to have that willingness, that's not always there. I think that's one really scary thing I've seen in sort of just navigating any space is seeing people who like, are really sitting happy in their privilege and are unwilling to learn anything else, like will not be challenged on any other thing. Like, you know, if you try to talk about in your experience or experience of others that you've read about, right? Like maybe like I, I am not transgender but like I have a cousin who is transitioning. I, I've known people who have transitioned to me. I it is still important like, imperative that I understand what that experience is. Like, what are some of the policies at the federal and state level or wherever else that and what are other experiences that they're having that? I need to make sure that like, I'm still like, even if I'm not going to all of the spaces I'm not going to like, whatever I'm not doing. I am still working behind the scenes, contacting my like elected officials. I am still trying to like correct people in space. There could be nobody in a meeting that is trans. And if I hear someone misgender, I'm like, but we're gonna fix that, we're gonna, we're gonna know we're coming back to that. Like, so it's like being an ally, being somebody that's like thoughtful about that. But I do tend to think that the people that are willing to do that generally are at least part of one marginalized community. It's harder when it's somebody that's like I call it the optimist prime of like privilege. So it's like somebody that's, you know, like a, a straight white hetero male who is like these systems were built to support them if I was in this role, like, why would I want to change? But it's like, that's not, that's coming from a very deep seeded set of like privilege and not a space of like positive curiosity or just care, care or empathy for anybody around them. And it's like, so it's like you have that has to be present for any of this exploration to happen. So I think learning can happen in different ways. But I think that, you know, to the point about how do we, how do we make allyship ha happen? Um or how do we find these allies? I think that that thing is necessary and what I've in closing that point out one of the things that I have decided was I am no longer willing to. If, if I'm not willing to convince somebody that this is important anymore, if there is somebody that is an optimist prime of privilege or even not just somebody who's sitting in privilege, that's saying, you know, I don't want to learn about this or I'm, I'm refusing to hear your experience or validate your experience or acknowledge that experience like it's, I'm not wasting my time trying to educate this person. Like I'm gonna be like, oops, sorry you feel that way, hope that you decide to, you know, educate yourself someday and, and stop being so horse blind or e like that's just, that's um you know, and I think that that has been a huge uh help for me and, and it's like, I know that's not very like, oh call everybody in. But it's like if, if we can't agree on the fundamental fact that everybody matters that we should care for everybody then like, and in the sense of like everybody deserves to be included to be seen to be, you know. Yeah, all of these things like to, to have rights like, I mean, that's then, then these aren't the people worth wasting our breath on, right? Like anyway, so let's, yeah. Um I have another question and it's the, it's the last and it's such in such a different vein um seemingly than everything we've been talking about. But I put it on there because it's a podcast and people cannot see Kylie is in a space where there are so many movie posters. Um and Star Wars nerd, you already tried to drop a Dexter reference in here thinking it wouldn't get noticed. That was never going to happen, it was never going to happen. You're a TV, and a movie person, you consume content. I'm actually, I think one of the things we haven't talked about on this podcast a lot is just like popular culture and representation and how that matters and like matters in DE I space. So like, what and I think this is, I'd love to hear what everybody has to say about this. But kicking off what is some of the favorite content that you've consumed that stands out to you as moving the dial on representation or telling interesting stories that relate to DE I, oh my gosh. Um You know, I honestly could, I, I feel like I, I find that like I'm kind of always on in that way, like, I, I find those tidbits in every single kind of like movie or TV show I watch. So like for the listeners, my nickname is KM DB. So like internet movie database. Um because I am a super huge, like um like film and TV, Dork um which is awesome and endearing. But it's also, yeah, I can drive people crazy, but it's um like, I, I think that what I have loved over the I I'd say more recent years. Like I, I can't, I don't know if I can pick a specific historical thing that I was like, this is the thing that I'm in love with, but I think that there were, you know, it was a lot more quiet, right? Like how for example, Wizard of Oz, which is like that poster right there. Um Wizard of Oz was like, you know, really big in the queer community because that was like kind of like a coming like even though obviously it's a story about a girl that gets like dropped in through a tornado and like into Oz and it's like on the front end, it's like this is the story but like, what is the subtext of this story or how does this have an alternate meaning? Um And, and that's, I think those were like, those were big movies like and not just having representation and like different people getting into spaces, I think for de I like that was also big, but I think what I've really loved is representation in film and movies over the more recent years. And I think where I have nerd out the hardest about this again because I'm a Star Wars Dork because I love, you know, science fiction and all this other stuff is I really love like the New Lord of the Rings TV show um Rings of Power, the Witcher, like just the books or like the, the original content can be very like white straight, whatever. And then you go and you see these more new, like recent out of t I mean, even like Bridgerton, like, right? Like just seeing like, I love Victor, right? Like, oh my gosh, I love Victorian. I don't, and I'm not even a period piece person. Like, I don't watch period pieces like that, but the way that this period piece was and I only, and this is rude of me, but I don't care. I only saw the first season because I didn't care after that because my homie was not there. So I don't want to watch it anymore. But to see all of the different representation at that time, which has never really happened was amazing. And then the music like the music, they hip hop in wind instruments and string instruments and it was just like, wait, do I know that song? I do know no. Love that, love that show. You know, I'm laughing because you millenniums, you know, when we had hip hop opera when I was growing up. So you millenniums don't know that. But my point is when you said um Ingrid, you said about the culture and the movies and things like that. And I just wanted to point out like I am a big movie person. I like classical mo movies, black and white movies. I like westerns. Um But when you get into Yeah, I like westerns. And when you get into like for example, the other day, we were talking in the office and if you Google Black Panther, you get Wakanda right now, you don't get Huey Newton and things like that. So these new movies, these new shows are erasing the history, in my opinion, it is erasing a lot of our history-- and-- that. But see, and that OK, so I, I see exactly what you're saying to Shana because my sister and I say this, the problem is the history is not being taught correctly. So whether it be in your school, in the classroom, in your higher education institute or in your home, that the passing of the historical baton is not happening. So you've got tiktok running around here thinking they got these new songs and they're not, these are old songs, these are old beats, it's called digging into crates. This is what has happened over centuries like this is this is what it is. Um So I think that and, and if that's the case, Tashana, I think that's sad. I think that's sad for someone to grow up thinking, well, I don't think it's sad because I think obviously Black Panther and Wakanda is everything to me. And it has done a lot for our culture and a lot in the movie industry because we were always known that we can never be box office hits, right? But I also believe that is the flip side is, it's sad if you don't know Black Panther and not even let's be real. Black Panther was a comic book like this was before the movie and before a chad made by a white person though it, where are we? Because I can write a movie and put you in a suit and you're my star. But where are we? We didn't write the movie but we didn't write the movie, but we directed and we produced it and we, we, we sh the way it's shown is through the eyes of an African-- American man and it's-- stripping the real word of Black Panther away. I mean, and I, I love Wakanda. I mean, I'm not saying nothing against it, but I'm also an old school fight revolution and Huey Newton, he started the Wick program and, you know, he started all these programs. But when you Google Black Panther, you get Wakanda. Where's the history? I think you're, I think what you're saying, I mean, I did not, I thank you so much for sharing that because I, I did not even like, I have not Googled Black Panther, like just in general, like, because it's like, you know, um I, I haven't recently and, but like, I never, I didn't think that that would, like, have replaced that sort of as like the prioritized. Like, I mean, I guess it, I understand like now that you're, I'm like, wow, that like, I, I didn't realize that that was a consequence um of, of that blowing up in such a big way. But I think one of the things and how this kind of ties back to like policy is like, you know, in looking at what are all the congressional bills like higher ed is like, and just education in general is like, it, I think you made that like, that point was so clear. I don't think it is necessarily just the baton that has to get past like, of knowledge, but it's also like, like in terms of like, what, what you're being told in your homes, but like, how is our education system, not even higher ed but like just K through 12? Like, what are we teaching in schools? Because there's a lot of erasure happening there, right? Like we know that like 100 plus bills in, you know, 2023 alone, this va on, on anti trans and anti LGBT plus bills, we know that there's a, I mean, how long has like all the, the war on, like what is it uh criminal race, criminal, critical race theory. Um And, and how we teach that in class, like, I mean, just the the attacks on DE I programs even, right? Like there's a lot of like, there's uh I think probably the SAN is, there's a bunch of them that are out here trying to like, tell institutions, like, show me how much your money you're spending on your DE I programs and like that then threatening to strip them like this has happened, these are real attacks that are been going on for a very long time. And like, if we are robbing people of, of getting to learn about this, like, where are they, where are they getting this information? Like, and you're right, like, it is, it is a tragedy if people don't know the history of the Black Panthers, if people are not. And, and it's interesting because I think there's regional problems with that. Like, I remember, I, I had this really good discussion with my friend. She was at Howard University at the time and like, she was talking about the Black Renaissance and like I had grown up in Hawaii and I, where I learned about the Hawaiian Renaissance and I grew up in Japan at a military on a US military school where we learned about like a lot of military and like political history and it, but like, obviously very Eurocentric because it's the military um or American centric. And like, coming together with my friend who was talking about the Black Renaissance and like, I didn't, I didn't recognize all the names I didn't recognize all this. And we were like, I was like, but what do you know about Hawaiian history? And it's like, so it was just, it's like, it's, it's curious, it's like, that's the positively curious element and it's like, but you're right? Like this Black history and Black Renaissance is critical to this. Like this was, this is part of our nation, like it is our nation's history and it's like to exclude it to somehow sanitize it. Like how they do in a lot of history classes just like they do with, you know, demonizing queer people or other identities. Like that's all of that is problematic and it all rolls up to how do we like, what are our policies that dictate how we teach? And so I go, I want and not that I didn't understand you Tahana because I totally did. But the way that you just put that Kylie, that, that makes sense is just, I mean, because it can easily with uh gay rights queer LGBT Q rights as the culture becomes, I'm not gonna say mainstream but it's put out there. It's that younger generation may forget all of the struggle that happened. They may forget the marshes, they may forget um street, you know, they may, they, the bars, the, the the police department interactions like they will forget all that because they didn't know all of that. So I think it is important and just like you said, your culture has a lot of storytelling. We're not, we're not doing the storytelling and when we do it conflicts with what was was learned and how, how do you, how do you, how do you talk about that? Because I feel like I'm going through that with my younger one, you know, she loves, history, loves history. But which history are you loving? The made up history, the history that it sounds good in your classes or the real history. That's why it's important to keep our village tight and teach our village and hopefully our village, you know, they teach the next generation, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. There, there are a lot of, I think just, I don't know, like, I think with native Hawaiian representation, I think about like, you know, I I've seen a lot of depictions of like native Hawaiians that they, they, they don't even bother hiring native Hawaiian actors. Like they just like, let me just, it's not like, right. Emma Stone was depicted as a half Hawaiian, half Chinese person. She's like red hair freckles, like 1000% not Hawaiian. And like it was just like, you know, i it was the whitewashing of roles and like that's, that's been going on for a long time. It's really unfortunate it continues to happen, but it's like seeing those lacks of representation sucks. And when you do see that representation in various spaces, um it is so important and like, you're right, like having that context is key because like we for pack we had at our last conference, we had um Doctor K Lou Fox who was a friend of a friend. He is the first native Hawaiian um to have earned a phd in genomics and he's a year younger than me and I was like, he's super impressive. He's got like a bunch of not GEO features. Uh So if you're curious about what the work he's been doing to decolonize genome data, like, check that out. Um But he was talk like one of the things he said during his keynote speech during um our conference was about how, like the history of native Hawaiians and how they have, like, I just, how they've been depicted, how they've been portrayed and just even science, right? Like when we're looking at genome science, specifically, one of the things he talked about was like in medicine, like 99 something like 90 something percent of uh genome studies are done on European bodies. And like, so they're trying to generalize web website, sorry, they're trying to generalize uh information. Um They're trying to generalize a lot of this information for broader audiences when it's not actually true. And like, we know, we know that these kinds of things exist, but like even in how we tell our stories, right? Like for years, native and indigenous peoples stories were silenced because these weren't real histories, you didn't write them down. So it's not real hula is not a real form of history. Um You know, telling what is it like, I, I don't know the way tell histories. It's like there was, there was a colonization of how we told our stories And so I know that this happened in a lot of spaces that are not white where it was like, yeah, oral traditions and how we share how we pass down information and knowledge. And so it was fascinating. One of the things that Doctor Fox talked about was like, we have as a people told, you know, generation after generation after generation, like, you know, we, we were, we are avid seafarers. We've always been seafarers. We have been able to navigate the stars. And like that was the whole Hawaiian renaissance was in the seventies was like when they were basically like every, all the Americans were saying, you know, oh, you guys can't like, you're no, you're not, you're not telling real histories. This isn't real history. You can't, this, you can't do that. And Hawaiians are like, you know what we're gonna, we're gonna show you the receipts. And so they decided to, you know, they, they organized this huge Hokulea which was like this, this navigation that went like use old traditional Hawaiian seafaring equipment and like they just, they proved the world wrong. And like in the sense that it's like we, we challenge that narrative that we don't know how to tell history, that we don't know our own people that we don't know our own capabilities. And you know, it's, it's crazy how it shows up in so many different ways, not just education, but also sorry, it was my dog. Um but in so many different ways and it's, I know that so many different, like bo communities and other marginalized communities have these sorts of same experiences. I mean, but specifically with colonization and, you know, oppression and things like that. Racial oppression and violence, it's like, that's those histories were completely silenced. And I mean, native Hawaiians were down to like, I think God, there was like a 70 or 80% reduction in the Native Hawaiian population at one point thanks to colonizers, like we almost lost our entire people. Like there are fewer than 800,000 in the world today. Um And most of them live outside of Hawaii because we can't afford to live there. But this, besides the point, it's, yeah, storytelling is so important in how we and in how we share histories and how we talk about what things are happening. And like, if, if there, you know, I think, sorry. So one last thought is um in terms of how we, you know, when we're talking about like how things become mainstream, what you were saying, Portia about like queer things becoming mainstream and people forgetting what it's like to, you know what it was, what the history was like, how, how pride, pride started as a riot, how like all of these things came from a specific period of time and specific movements and like um part of it is I'm almost like, I understand like, yes, they, they need the history, the history is helpful, it helps provide the context. Um They can, I, I think it's really important to see where, where have we changed and where have we not changed? That we still need to change? Like that's all important context. But the one thing that I like the one tiny, tiny silver lining I've taken that is I do think that that is a little bit beautiful that there are people that don't remember that like that there are people that have never experienced having a bottle thrown at them when they were kissing a girl. So like, I'm sorry, I'm speaking from personal experience, like my ex girl friend had told me that she had like, never, you know, she wanted to hold my hand and like kiss in public. And I was very hesitant about that because I was like, I don't want to get like a bottle thrown at me again. Like, because that's happened just like, just, you know, from some random truck full of dudes that were like screaming slurs at us and it was like, I don't want that. Like, I'm glad that she didn't ever have that experience. Like, I mean, I was kind of jealous and like almost mad about it because I'm like, like, uh that's not part of the gay experience, but like, that shouldn't be part of the gay experience. Like, right? The goal is that we, we don't have these things in our world like the goal is that these kids don't experience, you know, the next generations aren't experiencing bias and racism. Like it would be awesome for this to not be front and center in their minds. Right? Like that is to me, that's a silver lining. Even though I 100% agree context is cap. I so appreciate that. It's, I think that's a beautiful place to wrap it up. Um And I, I do want to give you my Wizard of Oz Hot take when she got back to Kansas after being in Oz Kansas should have been in color. That's my hot take, right?-- And-- when she was talking about the Wizard of Oz, I immediately went to the Wiz. Yeah. Oh, fantastic. Stephanie Mills. Ok.-- Ok. I get it. I get it.-- This is, this is where we always at. No, no, you are telling your support of the original, of the originals. Kylie. Thank you so much for being on her. We have so enjoyed talking with you. We can't wait to have you back some time. Oh, I appreciate it. Thank you so much. Thanks for listening to HD. A podcast sponsored by Acro. We'd love to hear from you. Share your episode, ideas or feedback for us at HD at acro.org. Episodes are produced by May Oa Inna. Thanks May Oa We'll see you next time.