AACRAO Podcasts Cross-Episode Release: Annual Meeting Edition

Portia LaMarr (HEARD co-host), Loida Utley (Transfer Tea), and Sarah Reed (For the Record co-host) took a moment at the AACRAO Annual Meeting to record this cross-podcast conversation. Hear them talk about opportunities for connection between professions (e.g., financial aid, registrar, and admissions); where they feel seen (and where they haven’t); and how they have learned to advocate for themselves. Oh, and Portia’s unwavering commitment to figuring out what birds people are. It’s a great conversation!

Transcript

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I, this is podcast and hey, this is Sarah from the for the record podcast. This is Loya from the transfer T podcast and we are currently coming to you live from three different time zones. I can honestly say it was such a good time to see everyone at the acro conference. Um I really feel the the the family atmosphere sometimes, you know, you, you see friends that you haven't seen in a year if you were able to go to previous conferences and this was just really good to see my other cohorts if that's the right word and also see my podcast people. It was really awesome, Porsha. I, I appreciated that as well. I feel like, you know, the podcast reps showed out, right? We were all there supporting each other, taking pictures, um seeing each other and then really just making sure we have devoted a lot of time, an abundance of time connecting with the community. So I just wanted to give some um behind the scenes info on this session, we recorded it just as a brainchild for us all to meet and connect across podcasts and give the listening audience just a different vibe, right of, of us together. We've always wanted to do this. We just didn't know how and it just, it felt like the, the stars align in Colorado for that one moment where we were able to do this. And I thought that was a special moment. I will reiterate that we're in three different time zones. And so it was really nice to be in one single time zone and record together um in the presence of our peers as they were walking by and also stopping to chat. So shout out to those who were taking pictures of us. We got some pictures of all three of us recording. It was so nice and uplifting to see everybody.-- It was um-- this particular episode that you all are going to listen to, uh reflects on a lot of things that happened at the conference. I, it really does one thing that inspired us is really just BD Wong's uh plenary presentation and we were thinking of, you know, what ways are each of us seen and unseen. And so we talk about that in depth, both personally and professionally in this episode. We hope you enjoy our own experiences have formed who we are and professionally again. And um both personally have kind of shaped these podcasts from the bottom, right? We all feel passionately about something and it has come through our professional and personal experiences in higher education. So as you listen to this particular episode, we hope that you reflect on it. We want to know also what your reactions are to it and what resonated with you, how you felt. And so for that reason, we will have our email addresses listed below. Feel free to contact us individually as professionals or to our podcast. We really want to hear from you. All right. I feel like Matthew mcconaughey. All right. All right. We have this, this particular recording. We are merging all of the podcasts together. All but one, all but one. So all the podcast hosts are here. So I'll start, I'm Porsha Lamar and I'm from the, her podcast. I'm Loida Gonzalez at Lee and I'm from the transfer T podcast. I'm Sarah Reed from UC Berkeley and I'm for the, for the record podcast.-- I'm presenting Doug-- also. Oh, yeah. Ok. Ok. Well, I'm representing Ingrid-- Nuttle and Tashana-- Curtis-- and I'm representing myself as-- you-- as-- you should. And I'm representing Doug mckenna. Can we get it? Doug mckenna is everything. Yes, everything. So, how have you ladies conference experience been? It's been good. I think that I was under the assumption we were just going to see the same people we saw last year. There's so many new attendees. I was so excited to see that. So I've just been approaching random people and saying, hey, how has your experience been? I hope you come back. What have you learned? How can we make it better. I'm not even a part of any committee, but I'm just like, yeah, let's start a conversation.-- Could have-- lunch. I think what was said, I was so I was uh a volunteer representing all of us at the podcast for um experience acro and I wanna say they said 400 our new folks. That's amazing. I feel it, it feels like a very, this is already a huge conference lodge and it seems very full with our folks. So it's a beautiful thing. And I think the last session I was in, they had folks raise their hand and they were over,-- that means-- 400 new perspectives. And I love it. And then I won't say so. There's two foes to that. They're just new coming to the con, but they could have always been in their perspective roles and hire it for a very long time or they're new to the conference and they're young to the profession. And I think that that is interesting as well. And from that, I've heard there's a new caucus arriving, the young professionals under 40. I think that is an excellent, excellent idea because when you come to things like this, you, you can get a feeling of, I don't know, I don't know any of this stuff. Do am I supposed to know? I think imposter syndrome could come in very quickly because you feel like this is over my head or over the level of area that I'm here because if you're a young professor, you may not necessarily be in leadership. So you could be hearing these things and not feeling like you have a say or an impulse.-- I agree. I'm glad-- they have that to share to work with. I think also, you know, when I was a young professional, I think young professionals in general have such a yearning to connect and to learn and really to explore that phase of their career at that time. And so when you see other folks who have are bonded, they know each other. It could be very daunting to feel like I'm going to just stay in my room and I don't know how to break into that and I'm not on that level. And so this is a really nice way for them to have a space and support. Agar does a good job of embracing new people or new attendees too. They talked about it at the opening session, just go up to people with a purple badge and it's really a neat opportunity to embrace that person and give them that support in whatever field there is. It seems like there's a lot of registrars here, but there's other other departments represented parts of her. This is a heavy, heavy red professional group, but they know that and they want more admissions, but it's not that they're turning away emissions by no means emissions has other professional groups that they're a part of too. It's interesting. I was just interviewing Charles who is a recruitment in recruitment. And, and I was like, I don't know that I've ever had these conversations at Accra where there's the overlap with admissions and registrar, but I was right there with him. So I would, I love to see more intersectionality like sessions because I think it's really, I could totally see if I was in a mission, like maybe I want to do my own thing. But I would actually personally love that intersection. I would also say throw in financial aid to me, that would be my jam because why are we in however many years higher education has been out there? And we know that's a lot where I've always felt like we never cross over radio stars. Admissions is admissions and financial this financially, but we work so closely together. I never want to be in the same sandbox. So I've seen a little bit of a crossover. It seems to be people that are starting transfer centers now and a transfer center could live anywhere. It could live on the academic side, it could live in enrollment management. Keisha from M University oversees a transfer center and she's a registrar. So it's really interesting. Yeah, maybe that it's an up and coming thing that would put you in a position to bring in more, you know, people from different-- departments.-- Here's a thought. Maybe we should keep this, what it is so we really have the full sessions we need or expand it, but we could have an enrollment management like conference that would be do we? I don't know. Yeah, that's Jack Miner's area right now. So I'll definitely reach out to him. He will talk, he will not only talk about sin, but he will talk about a lot of things that deal with higher education because he's very, he's very knowledgeable in that. And he's been, he's been in the game and has learned. So. Yes. No, they do have that. They have tech, transferring tech. They have like I'm losing-- the International-- Institute. So for foreign credentialing, mostly on the admission side, that was Robert Watkins, very well known in Foreign Credentials. You just by-- Robert, if you're listening to this,-- you just walk by, we recognize you. Yes. So I heard it a lot. I think it is the which can be overwhelming for someone who may have just come into the organization where you just don't know all that happened. So I guess I experienced some and this is because we were trying to roll out at Berkeley, but I experienced it more as like, how do you implement some, not necessarily some of the other sessions where it's like more of a deep dive of our intersectionality. Maybe it's probably there. I just didn't have that experience. That wasn't my lens when I was there. Yeah. Yeah. So I have a question for you guys, I've been asking on my podcast today, inspired by B D's plenary session. What, how do you guys feel in, in your work life or professional life or personal life seen? And where do you, how could the world see you better, more, more effectively, wholly? Ok. So I'm gonna talk about my entire professional experience all of five years because I'm only 21. Um when you were young, that's a fresh looking face right there. I, I did not realize it but I think I was always trying to be seen but never knew. I guess it never had the wording attached to it. But it was just like, I'm trying to do any and everything I can because my goal was to be a registrar. So it was just like, and my client was different. I know everybody has their own path. But, um, I started in K through 12. I was at a charter school that just so happened to have a registrar there and that is very rare for any K through 12 school to have anything like that. Most of them they have like a centralized building that handles all that admin stuff. So I got that experience to be that way. Now, usually thought when the school unfortunately closed thought, oh, I'll just go be a register at a higher education institute. Cool, great easy. It wasn't that easy at all. Matter of fact, I'm going to say rejected because I'm reclaiming that word and not making it seem so negative, but it was a because I just really didn't have the understanding. So yes, I was rejected and that was ok. I had to learn what register meant in higher education foundations were there as far as records, but a totally different game, totally different ball game. Um So I felt like I now went from a proprietary school, which I never felt this is no knock to proprietaries. But I just felt like I'm not seen because it's a proprietary school. I'm going to be a big school, you know, went to a private school in my mind. It still wasn't the what I felt was successful. You can be successful at a private school, you can be successful at a proprietary school. It was just my goal to be at a, a big 10 big school, you know, so did all that went to a Catholic institution. I I've been on my journey was my journey. And again, I feel like throughout all of that, I was yearning to be seen. Please see me because I want to be registered, love this work. But I recently switched to it still in higher education and doing something that comes natural to me as being a product manager and the combination of I'm being seen-- has all fallen in place and it's just-- natural because you're leading the project, everybody has technology work with you. But it's not even that it's just, I am able to be authentically me. What do you think has changed? And I feel like I've always been there but it was like, I was trying to fit a mode of what I thought a writer's chart was. And if that meant, take a little here, you know, it's about policies, it's about politics and it's about all of that stuff and if that meant I had to, oh, I can't do this. Like I have to do that where I am now. It's just like my knowledge is there or not. I don't care because you come with extensive knowledge and to know that I don't know, it all is even better. Does that mean I'm always learning, I'm trying to think and just doing things that naturally come easy to me, meaning it's not that much effort and it's being seen, my current boss has a different perspective on a lot of things in life and in what we do. So that is just enlightening to me. It is, it is a lot. It's kind of very overwhelming because it's like I not knocking my path, not knocking out with anyone in my path because I truly believe I needed everybody. I crossed to get to where I am. But I've never been treated like this. And I'm like, oh my gosh, this is a different approach. So, yes, yes, yes. So that is my experience and I'm loving my journey, the entire journey from proprietary to they can I love it. So, just to reconfirm for you, it's like the slotting in the perfect role for you, your skill set and also a really good fit with your boss or that's a beautiful thing, knowing who I am. And that combined with your self knowledge and expertise, you're now in a place where you can just totally go forth and prosper. But go, I've been in Higher Ed. This will be my eighth year. I also, I think I fought hard to be seen for me. It was different. I fell into a position where I had an empowering leader that was OK with taking the back seat so her team could shine and that changed and then it went to an opposite. So one day they said, hey, we're going to disband this department. We're going to put you in an enrollment management now. And the first conversation was like, yeah, you're going to have support. It's going to be great. We get there and they're like, wait a minute, you do not have a seat at this table. You just sit here, follow this workload. That's the transaction. So you had it and then it was from. So I feel like as I was building momentum, it got crushed it. It's so, you know, the power that somebody has over you, a leader over you as you were trying to gain maturity in your career, it'll make you or break you it sounds like a session. Yes, I sat outside of my office in a bench and I was just in tears and I said I questioned everything. Why am I doing a higher grad degree? I'm just going to drop out. I hate it here. I don't want to be in this position. I don't want to feel like this. I had expertise in foreign credentialing a skill that takes so many years to perfect. And I couldn't say anything because it was my opinions were overlooked. It didn't matter, we're going to do. It was very micro management style. And you know, when I hear your story because this is just how I think sometimes it makes me want to go what put that lead in that position that they felt that they needed to micro-- and-- switch and disband. I don't know. And so I remember calling my professor, I was very close to her name is Dr K and I was questioning everything and she let me babble for gosh a long time. And then she said, listen, you just haven't been invited to the table. Maybe this is not your table, maybe you belong at a different table because when you belong at the right one, you have to wait a few months. I was only in that situation a few months, three or four years. I felt like an intern. I was miserable. I was a bad person to be around for those four months. Then I came to where I am now complete opposite.-- It flips-- like this with a team that just embraces you that loves you, that supports you, that says, you know what? I can't do the work that you do. I can't help you, but I can support you. And if you have ideas, I will go to back for you. Uh I will bring you the resources that you need so that you can be successful. Um I, I don't always know how to do your, you know, the specific job role that you have, but I will do what I can. And that was kind of new to me, you know, that nobody had ever approached me like that. So um I feel so fortunate to have our executive director says you are where you need to be and I feel like I am where I needed to be. I didn't just have a seat at the table, you know, they built my own table. And so that was so powerful and impactful. I think that our department runs so smoothly because everybody's on the same page and everybody's just constantly nurturing one another and it is such a healthy environment through that. I also became unapologetic through that experience. So it was like, OK, I'm a very blunt forward person. I learned how to be forward but not aggressive. That's another part that's a skill. So I learned to be very honest, very forward. But then also wait for the right time and the right words to say it with.-- So-- do you, because a lot of that is still someone else's opinion though. So, do you may, I feel like you have mastered all of that, but all it takes is one person to be like she's being aggressive. So I'm like kudos to you. But at the same time, it wasn't anything that you can really do, it wasn't anything you can really do. And I love that you shared that because it really is a good point, right? You could be in a certain space and be the same brilliant person that you are and totally under and also unhappy and maybe have not saying that you did, but that could develop into performance issues versus you get the right environment fit support and then you're blossoming and they've asked me that question, my team and now they were like, you know, if you were doing great things now, I wonder how you were back then. I said I was the same person. It's just, I was limited, you know, I was just put in the office in the back of the room and said, sit here, do your job 8 to 5. And that's it. You're not allowed to do anything else. Don't do more, don't do less. So it was challenging. I don't hold back somebody I don't remember who it was was like, always, you know, speak your mind, don't let anybody hold you back. I don't, I'm more careful and not careful to, to, to say something wrong. I'm just more aware of people's emotions and aware of when to say things right. When it's, it's appropriate to speak out and,-- and when it's not-- and actually how to say it. Yes. Um, I've been in a leadership training at my institution and they had us do the disc assessment but instead of dis is disc and each one means something and I can't tell you that yet. But this particular one that we took, the letters equated with birds. So now when I tell you the birds, you'll kind of understand which one is, which you've got an eagle, you have a parrot, you have a dove and then you have a Exactly. Exactly. And then you have an owl. So when you take it and when we took it, those birds were represented. So you kind of knew exactly who you were. So when I say who you're talking to and how you say it, right? You have to recognize who your audience is and how they take information. So if you're talking to an eagle, you got to know you've got to lay out the points and just give it to him directly. Ok? Because that's what they're wanting and succinctly, yes. If you're talking to a parent, you know, you got to finesse it. You got to figure out, hey, how are you, you got to ask those personal questions and then get to the work. You know, if you're talking to a dove, you're going to have to check that aggressiveness because they are going to internalize that as if you're attacking them. And if you come with the, you have to come with the facts, the facts, I'm going to lay down everything, but I'm going to also tell you why and the reasoning and be prepared for that to be like, I don't understand, it doesn't make sense. So that is the other half of it. Like understanding who you are talking to. One thing I love about education is that it helps you get down your career path, you learn a lot of things. But one thing I think is really missing in higher ed and education in general K through 12 up is the understanding of people and how we work together. How do we talk to each other, how to process, how to de traumatize. Those are basic lifelong skills that we need to learn and everybody learns on their own over time and maybe through programs. But it's a fundamental flaw because we're dependent on collaboration. You can go, you can't be unapologetic but burning bridges, it's not going to work. You need bias, you need to say, hey, yes, you need to be my ally. Let's be honest with each other so that we can move this idea forward. So I'm going to commit myself to be honest with you. You give me honesty, it won't be personal feedback is good, negative and positive. And then we'll figure out how we're going to move this shit forward. You have to. So Sarah, how was I seen or not seen? I don't know, I definitely did not feel seen literally in any part of my life. Definitely like, you know, K through 12, I definitely remember literally thinking I was invisible because I was so unseen. I also like, feel like I integrated my school, like black integration. I very much this is like a visceral. I'm not sure if it's true, but it was a visceral feeling that I had as a child. It is your failure. So that's that. And-- if it did or didn't, that was your feeling.-- That was my feeling. So and that heavy and it's heavy, not even eight, you know, first few years and beyond. So I think what to survive. I think what I've done a good portion of my life is not to be visible. Um And so I feel like my adult life has been unpacking that and challenging that at every step to become visible, which has at times have been incredibly deeply uncomfortable for me that said with that framework of history, I think as a um an and like an a career minded person, I think I've been intent, very aggressive in my desire for learning and to, to exert my talents. And that also was not seen, I was promoted but not appreciated and used and I would say even abused but not like valued. So I think that dichotomy of having some access, but then also devaluation has also been a challenge um throughout my career. And now as I kind of at a place where I don't feel like that I'm with the right boss, I'm at the right organization and I have expertise like you've shared and I'm ready to really fully blossom, but it's been a lifelong journey for sure.-- Yes.-- And you know what, in hearing your story and I appreciate you getting the outside of higher ed, well, in education still, but outside of higher ed, the part of you, it also made me think of when you asked that question, one of the moments you've been seen and unseen and we relate that to other people looking at us. I thought about it like I need to ask myself because when you share that you made yourself not seen. Absolutely.-- And I was also not seen.-- I know I do that and continue to do it now. So because I have a boss who sees me, he and has the patience to work with me and my ability to not be seen, not want to be seen. He's like, no, you're going to work on talking about all your accomplishments. You're going to work on talking about everything that you've done. Yes. Yes. Yes. But I, but I think about it. I can't expect for other people to see me and I don't see myself and I think it's something to unlearn. I still struggle with it sometimes too. I was just at a table the other day with three men and I was sitting there thinking at one point you're not speaking up, you are an expert. Why are you not speaking up here? And I was, uh, I was, um, I'm not appreciating. It was a little bit jealous of like how at ease they were with each other in the, in the men world. And I was like, damn, I really wish I don't ever want to be a man. I very value who I am in this lifetime. But I, I wish I had that lifelong feeling of empowerment that that's not even something I have to think about. And do I did that earlier? Uh Sarah was talking uh asking about transfer tea and I kept saying we and she was like, but it was you and I'm like, yeah, but you know, we-- honey,-- she's like, take out your shit.-- You've worked hard for a year.-- This would never have happened without you.-- This is-- challenging. The other part is I think in thinking of my negative experiences that I've had in higher ed in the past, I don't want to be like that. I don't wanna say I, so I have issues with saying I, and everybody makes so much fun of me before I had a team, I was a one person man in my institution. And so I would present, we would go out and uh present to advisors, high school, a college advisors and high school counselors. And I would give my spell and it was a we spell. And so my boss would come on and she would say she says we, but it's really hard. You all need to know that. it's really hard. And I would tell her like, Maggie don't do that. You put me on the spot. She was like, you've done this work. Why wouldn't you take credit for it?-- So it's a challenging thing. Sometimes-- it is a challenging thing. But I'm like, how can we approach this differently? And can there be room for both? Can I say I with the help of my team? Like we can, there's got to be a way that we can single ourselves out and our accomplishments, but also be able to acknowledge the people that were there that helped get us over the finish line with the project or whatever it is. I completely agree with you. And I think this is definitely an area to explore because I struggle with this as well because I'm, I'm a we person. But I've also been in a situation where saying we hoping that the community will speak up when they need to and they have stolen that. And they were like, oh yeah, I and I'm like, oh no, no, no. That was all me. I said we to be inclusive but then that's been stolen quite a few times. So then you gave them permission to and permission. Right. So I just, I'm saying that as a challenge checking that as well because we can't always assume that there are allies who, you know, or even doing it to ourselves.-- I hadn't even thought of-- that. Right. And then I'm thinking of the people that, and that's the big issue. It is we need to unprocessed. When we do hear people say I, we look at it as negative. Yes. Which then in turn, we don't want to be the one saying I, but if we really listen to why they're saying, I, and how they say it, is it, is it really negative or is it not? I think this goes back to that missing component of education. If we had more time processing ourselves as humans, our tendencies, our behaviors, our worst traits and more development, maybe we wouldn't be even having this conversation now. Right. But this isn't part of our educational background typically. And, and I'm glad that we are having it because it's, it's something for us all to think about. I don't even know where I learned that. To be honest, I'm sitting here thinking all the, you know, all these thoughts going through my head because my father raised me, both my parents, but my father raised me to be a very powerful woman, to have a voice, to take ownership of things. I mean, to have confidence in everything. And so I don't even know where I learned that. I don't know. I, I believe that it's, it's in, in, um, I'm not going to speak for all but I, in my world of being identified as a African American black female. I believe a lot of it is culture And I believe to me, I feel within the culture, I can quickly tell you who I am. What I do. You don't know. Oh, you know, I've compared myself to Beyonce several times and I mean it, right. But when I get in front of other cultures, I think that it is a generational thing that doesn't even necessarily need to be taught to humble yourself, hold your head low, try not to be seen. And we know why we know why, because of historical matters that have happened. If you were seen as a black person in a white world,-- you were in trouble and-- eliminated. It's a lot of things that historically happened. You had to get off the sidewalk and go across the street. Don't look, don't look them in the eye anything. So I'm like, how much of that is carry for and not necessarily learned,-- it's just there-- and it's not just within our community, right? There's that most other cultures, right? Yeah. Very interesting. This is why I love having this shared podcast space. I hope I'm like, I do this-- more often.-- And so when you come to spaces like Acro where everybody has a voice for real, it's not, you know, a fake stage of people. It's you just connecting with all these people and you share you different level and experience-- and-- you just exchange, you know, there's a lot of vps walking around, there's a lot of A VPs presidents and directors and everybody's just walking around like we met 10 years ago and we've been together our lives friends. Let's have lunch. Let's go share information. It's a great way to connect and I encourage people to connect and I understand what that means for a lot of people. It is stepping outside of their box and I understand that. But if, but connecting doesn't mean pulling someone to the side with a purple badge and just talking to them connecting can be, I got your information I gave, I sent you an email through linkedin. I'm I, I um following you. Those are, those are different ways to connect. So I don't want anyone to feel like the only way to connect is just to talk to someone and step out your box, be comfortable in the way you're connected, but try to make an effort to, I would say connecting could be going instead of streaming. If the room is not too small, going to the session and sitting next to someone and looking at someone in the eye, it doesn't even have to be saying anything because you know what? Sometimes it takes courage. You're in 123 sessions and then you're like, I saw that person three times. Now. I feel-- like I can say something to them-- and maybe connecting is also scoping out the territory seeing how you fit and where you can contribute-- for the next year.-- Absolutely. Yes. Yes. With you, Porsha, I, I highly encourage folks to step out of their comfort zone as someone like I said, growing up that feeling, invisible speaking was very difficult for me. And, and I, I will say from my own personal reflection, everything I've ever done to get out of my comfort zone has helped me, even if I was shaking legs for years, it did help me become the person I am today and now, but I also say that just because you may look at a person and be like, oh, look at all that they're doing trust and believe they are feeling some type of doubt because that's just being a HN I reached out on a whim and immediately regretted reaching out because I was just like, oh my God, but I I Yes, yes, but you'll get over it. You will get over that feeling and you can learn from that feeling. That does not mean that feeling goes away and it doesn't even mean the feeling was true. You may not know, you may feel stupid. You may have that shame and then later you'll find out that they're like, oh, I'm so thankful.-- You mean that that could be years-- later,-- I've-- also learned that being uncomfortable, the learning experience, you need to feel uncomfortable at some point. You need to feel a certain way so that you can learn how to move past it and deal with it whenever you're faced with it. I know we're running low on time. Did anyone else want to? I did. I wanted to add when I tried so hard to be seen, I was rejected-- when I stopped trying to be seen, I was seen-- more. I like that. Now tell someone what that means-- who maybe hasn't gotten to the other side of that-- statement. Don't try too hard, just be you. And when you're around the people that appreciate your genuine self, they're going to make sure that you're seen, they're going to put you in the spotlight and say, here you go, this is your moment. You are being seen and we're all going to sit here and we're going to clap for you and we're going to allow you to be seen over and over again.-- I-- think that is the connection between all of our stories of discovering us and another solace too. We talk about cycles and then repeating that cycle. How can I help somebody else be seen? Yeah, I'll just add one last thing from my perspective is, you know, for the folks who are in those spaces where they're not seen, I would say it's OK to work in a space like that because those challenges do strengthen you in your learning. At the same time, if it is soul crushing, don't stay in that space. Know-- your-- limits, you have to learn to differentiate that and know that it may not be easy as we're saying it by no means, are we not forgetting that sometimes you just can't leave, right. Pick up and go. So you need to find that space in that area in which you can give it to your, your, your responsibility, your job, but you can also keep your sanity until you are able to move on. Yeah. And I would say if you get to the point where your soul is literally dying and you're becoming less who you are, then that's the time to really re evaluate, at least get a therapist re evaluate. That's so beautiful. I, I want to just acknowledge that again. We're here. Just three of us representing so much of our not only aqua community but our, our co fellow beautiful podcasters. I can only imagine what this conversation would have been if everyone had had an appointment and I can't wait for that day and we've got to set something up like that too.-- Well, thank you. Thank you-- listeners. Thank you. So, it's such a pleasure. Thanks for listening to her RD. Higher education and real diversity. We'd love to hear from you. So please send us an email at HD at acro.org. Send us your thoughts on this episode or ideas you have for other ones. This episode was edited by Gaiman. Thanks Damon.