Disrupt the Cycle: Disability Justice with Whitney West and Iman Riddick

In this episode the ladies dive into promoting equity and inclusion for people living with disabilities and chronic conditions with Whitney West, Direct Director of Student Records and Associate Registrar at Louisiana State University in the Paul M. Hebert Law Center and Iman Riddick, Registrar and Assistant Dean of Students at the Institute of World Politics. Explore where you can start to promote disability justice; the impact of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA); and how COVID has had a lasting impact on health for everyone. 

Transcript

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And don't be checking me boo. I just have to throw that in there. Don't be checking me boo like, ok, I'm just saying she was doing, you know, she was doing what she's supposed to be doing. Don't be checking me boo. Ok. Sorry, Porsha. Hi Acro Community. Welcome to another episode of her. In this episode, we had the pleasure of talking with Whitney West, Director of Student Records and Associate registrar at the Louisiana State University in the Paul M Hebert Law Center and Iman Riddick registrar and assistant dean of students at the Institute of World Politics. We talked about ableism, disability justice and the intersection of race, gender and disability. We learned so much from this conversation and we hope you enjoy. Let's get started. Welcome to hurt. I'm Porsha Lamar. I'm Tashana Curtis and I'm Rene. And today we have some wonderful guests. We'll just go right into introducing you ladies. Uh Please, we have Whitney and Aman. I will let you all uh introduce yourselves saying where you're from, what you do, all that wonderful stuff. Um Whitney, go ahead. Hi, I'm Whitney West and I am currently the law registrar at LSU law in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Um, and I'm excited to be here. Um, I'm also a speaker and a doctoral student because I don't know how to do one thing at a time. Yes. Say all your accolades. I love it. I love it. What are you, uh, what is your doctoral? What would that be in? Um, it's in, um, it's a EDD in higher ed administration and my, um, Capstone project is about the intersection of race, gender and disability, black women with chronic illnesses and higher education. Love it. I love it. And Iman, hi. Uh my name is Iman Riddick. I currently serve as a registrar and assistant dean at the Institute of Rural Politics in DC. A small grad school. Uh My other experience is from the K through 12 realm um community college and a four year university here in Maryland. That's ok. Tashana. There you go. You're Marilyn,-- what-- was your, what did you do in K 12? I worked for Johns Hopkins uh Center for Talent to you. Um So uh director of enrollment there still the same type of processes as registrar. Um We serve the K to 12 population for gifted students, sometimes twice gifted, those that score very high on those standardized tests, but also fall on the spectrum. So it was interesting to work with that population too. Wow. Yeah, that's nice. I don't even think I know that, I mean, it makes sense as you say, it. But I don't know if I really knew that that was a, a thing that existed. I didn't know before I started working there either. That's amazing though. Really nice families and families that really cared. Right. And those that we could reach out um to like specifically in Baltimore because Johns Hop has made it a point to be able to uh make those um agreements and, or partnerships with local schools. So even families that didn't know they had the resource, I know that CTY changed lives um for those Baltimore-- school system-- students too. Wow. Well, it's very interesting. Well, thank you for sharing that background. Ladies. We have you here because we know that you are very passionate about uh spreading the word about uh disabilities. And OK, now, first I'm gonna say this right? Is ableism, right? What would be best for someone to say or like, how, how would you use those terms or if someone is trying to figure out the difference or what, like, how, what, what is it? Let me know? Let us know. Um So for, for me, I have to say like, in terms of terminology, I think it becomes really personal. Um So I know a lot of people have pushed towards like person first language. Um But for me, I go, it's like um like essentially like status first language. So I say like, I'm a black woman, I'm a disabled woman. I'm a disabled person. Um And that's what's most comfortable for me. So a lot of times you just kind of have to lean into either or, or interchanging. So everyone feels comfortable but um ableism just is like the rest of the ISMs. Um It's discrimination um based upon ability. So you usually use that term when you see that discrimination happening. Um A lot of people don't really know what Ableism is or how to describe it or really to recognize it. So that's, I think one of our big things is educating people on what it is and how to recognize it and combat it. You know, I would say from the perspective of um chronic illnesses is um and I asked Whitney this question all the time too. I'm like, is it chronically ill or is it um chronic conditions? You know, and to her point and she's taught me will that it is like, it's a personal thing. I feel that it's aggressive to say illness. So I'll generally say I live with a chronic condition or um you know, I, I think that it's kind of cool with um different groups that are allies of those with chronic conditions or illnesses where if they have like a catchy um branding of like chronically ill, that's Whitney. So it's like understanding how to make it cool, make it comfortable so that it is a conversation that we can have without being so worried about the definitions. Yeah. And I I like the way how you, you put that because it's also, it gets people away from trying to be nosy and figure out what the illness is like. You know, that's not your place. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. I'd like to ask a question kind of following up on that a little bit more because there are some conditions that people might have that are more visible than others. But like Whitney, as you were saying, ableism, like ableism is a form of discrimination regardless of whether or like re regardless right of whether or not you can witness someone with them. So how would you talk about how people can approach dismantling ableism while like no matter who they're working with what someone's visible condition may or may not be what they may or may not know because it's sort of, it's not about treating people who you can define and put into a box a certain way. It's about treating all people a certain way, right? So, can you talk to us a little bit about, about that? Yeah, definitely. Um For me, I say that disability is one of the few statuses that if you live long enough, nobody's really gonna escape it. Um Whether it's old age, whether you break a finger, a leg, get COVID, um any type of condition, most people are gonna touch disability at some point in their lives. So it's something that we should be a lot more comfortable discuss because we all deal with it or see it um all the time. So generally, I will inform people to just kind of be cognizant of what you're talking about not to assume people's ability or that everyone has the same ability. And it can be as simple as saying, oh, anybody should be able to walk from this room to that room. No, you can't assume that. Um So you wanna ask people, OK, what, what do we need? Uh what do we need to facilitate XY and Z instead of just making the assumption that everyone can do everything at every time. And I think, uh especially as people who are in, you know, the registrar world, we see this often, we have students who injure themselves in the school year, especially we have D one athletics and you're suddenly scrambling to move around rooms. And that's because our universities are not typically um centered around not being able to, we have stairs all over the place. Um We have curve cuts in the wrong places. We have office buildings that are um all the way upstairs and the elevators break all the time. Um So we, but we assume that, oh, these students are young, they can get up the stairs. So it's about not assuming what people can do or cannot do and just making things as accessible um as possible. Um To assume that it's gonna help anybody at any point um in their journey. And that, and that reminds me, I had a conversation recently with the girlfriend who, um, I just, I hollered out, I said that's ableism because she, she was like, comparing different people's conditions. So, uh she had met a young lady who had a DH D and she was comparing it to someone that might have like extreme, like anxiety. And she was like, it's not the same. And I said, well, you don't know what people's reaction to every day instances or experiences due to that person. So you can't complain or use a rubric to say that this condition is worse than the other. Or you should be able to do this with this condition if you're high functioning with a DH D. So I was like, we have to break this down sis because you cannot, you know, put those labels on people as if number one, you're a medical professional which you're not. And number two, that you would understand everybody's situation. That's just not a place where, you know, you get to putting your two cents. Yeah, everybody's different too with even the same conditions. You know, because people often say, well, I know somebody who has a DH D and they can XYZ or I know somebody who has this and they're fine. It's like, but that person is not this other person and you have to have those types of considerations. And oftentimes when people have illnesses, um especially those that are um can be deemed mental illnesses. People judge those very much often, especially when they get accommodations. Um So people will think that's an unfair advantage not realizing that this person is living with a condition which makes them need that accommodation. And surely enough, a lot of people are accepting of their conditions and where they are, it makes them who they are, but they know that it's a difficulty often. So if sometimes if they can remove that difficulty,-- they would like to-- as professionals when you say cause you know, students may not really want to say what their disability is. So as professionals, do you have these difficult conversations with students and how do you get them to open up to let you know what is going on with them? So you, so they can have the proper accommodations. Um So for me, um of course, we don't want to, you know, ask people to um disclose whether it's students or staff. Um And so typically I just ask students or staff, you know what's going on, you know, is there anything that you need to make your, you know, time at the university or your job easier? You know, if there's anything you wanna tell me or anything you need, we can work through that and whether or not they want to disclose will be on them. But oftentimes they kind of know what they need but are afraid that saying that they can't say that without disclosing. But asking them those types of questions, oftentimes, let them tell you what they need without feeling like they have to out themselves and say what's going on with them. You know, the purpose of what we're doing here, making sure that everybody at the organization or the company is informed enough to start designing the way we operate with the assumption that somebody would need assistance or that somebody could um find a better way to do some of the task or communicate or travel across campus or you know, those type of things. So part of what we hope happens in the coming years of just these conversations happen is that let's just think about how we can make sure that everybody has the space to be the most successful at our institutions, right? It's just like the uh Great Rupaul says, if you stay, if you stay ready, you don't got to get ready. So if you're there and you already know, then we, we ready for this instance. And I, and I, I wanna go back to, I like how you talked about um relating ableism to an actual, how people see other people. I know I've got family members that have gotten the evil eye because they come out of a handicap parking spot walking and people assume you shouldn't be there. So that, that was a very good example for me to really, truly understand what ableism is. So I I appreciate that. Uh Calling that out. Yeah, most definitely. And it's, I mean, to me this kind of seeps in from the time we're born essentially because even the the notations of disability are physical like you see people in wheelchairs. So your automatic connotation growing up is that it is somebody who cannot walk or that wheelchair equals people who cannot walk. People often use mobility devices to assist them in their life and does not mean that they cannot walk. It just means that they need that assistant in that moment. So people often we'll see people on social media even say, oh well, I saw your leg move. It's like, yeah, cause I can get up and walk around. I just need this to help me in this moment. Like I'm not faking what what I look like. But a friend of mine, she's paralyzed and so she's a student. Um Emma, you know, her um so she is a student and she has issues getting around campus. She uses a wheelchair, the, the the doors will not work um or she'll just be in the student hall and trying to open up food and cannot open it because she has issues with, you know, her hands and her digits. And it just gets you to realize like how many things on our campuses and in life are just not accessible to people who have disabilities, whether they're physical, you know, or mental like think about how loud it is when you go into a student center. So people who have, you know, cognitive disabilities will, may avoid those areas because of that. And there may be resources in that building that they need, but they're not gonna go there. Yeah, I was on a webinar or I attended a webinar with um I can't remember the institution but I think they're in Texas and it's a school for architects and they're changing their learning objectives and everything else to make sure that everyone is being considered. So it was a, a simple uh example that they were talking about those in wheelchairs that may need to press the button to open the elevator door. Sometimes you'll see like the garbage can in front of it, which for someone that's not seated lower or at the same level that's fine or um someone that is not too tall and doesn't have to bend down as much, but reaching over the garbage can bruises their rib cage on whatever side they use to reach the button. So it's like you have the elevator button and the elevator works in the building, which is great. But it's like, let's think through the entire process, what happens when a student comes into your door and how do they get around comfortably without injuring themselves? I'm interested in hearing a little bit more um from both of you about the work that you have done like Whitney, you mentioned you're in a EDD program and not like you have experience as well. Like, can you talk about some of your work and where it is focused to try to remove some of these barriers and like normalize the best practices for everyone that you're talking about here. Oh, yeah. Um I think that I'll say it again. It's just having these conversations is like, it is eye opening when we started presenting. So the first time we present it was at si um in 2022 and a good turnout with many people. But the questions that we got or the feedback of people like sharing their personal experiences help make the conversation flow so that we're learning every day and that we're making sure that people are aware of what they could do on their campuses. So the goal is just making sure that if we didn't have to ask what you guys need, it's great. But people like starting the conversation to say, what do I need to know about? It is like a little bit more productive at all the different institutions that I've worked at. Uh I've had to either consult as a person that might um be serving as like an ad, a coordinator or is just someone that just wants to be a sounding board to ask of like suggestions to help a student. Those are just all the learning experiences. And I think that if we get more people comfortable with talking about it, then the more again successful we'll be on putting together plans and putting together a policy that um aligns with all of our students and our staff on. So, yeah, I would just say the conversation is what um I'm starting to have and even in my personal life, just bringing it up, like, like with my, my really good friend, I'm like, no, you cannot do that. That's not right. Just put yourself in the same situation and um, and, and go that route when you, when you get to like having ideas or giving suggestions. Um So I agree with all that IMAN said, and my route is the same but slightly different. Um Sometimes I consider myself a disrupter. So, um I go into spaces, you know, ready to shake stuff up and that comes from, you know, me dealing with being diagnosed while I was working at Higher Ed and just kind of also thinking back to when I was becoming sick and not knowing it and the way I was treated, um when I was in grad school and when I was working for the university and just looking back and I was like, oh, I was treated really horribly when people could have just asked questions about what was going on and not assume what my, my ability was or why I was or wasn't doing certain things. So it really upset me about, you know, the things that were going on. And then I think also, um when I talked about studying the intersection of race, gender and disability, it's because I found that, you know, when I first got diagnosed, it felt like it was just another thing that was kinda added on to an already list of minoritized identities that was just gonna put me in a space where either I was extra visible and nothing was done or kinda seen but unseen. And so it got to a point where it just felt really down and, but then I realized the kind of the strength of the A DH. And so while I was wholly unprotected as a black woman and as a employed person, because in most states, I've talked about this a lot that you have to um come under one statute. So if you're a black woman and you feel discriminated against, you have to say you have to prove it as a black person or as a woman. So if a black man has gotten a thing that you said you didn't get or a white woman has you are, you have no case. So we are kind of unprotected as people who are employees. Um And so when it came to the ad A, when I realized that I can get accommodations protected under the AD A and it's a real stronghold. Um I felt kind of empowered to call people out on their BS essentially. Um More so than I have like I've actually been able to report people for the things that they're doing where I didn't feel like I had that leeway or ability when different things happen. Um, no matter what their position is and, you know, it's been handled in a way that we wish the racism and sexism had previously been able to be handled. Now, you know, that as people who, who, who have been in this registrar where we love us some acronyms, we will throw and say some acronyms out there. So for those that would not know, can you please let us know what AD A is?-- Yes,-- it's the Americans with Disabilities Act that came about in 1990. Um, and that was a hard fought struggle, um, as well, the fun fact, not so fun. Um, is that it was actually approved because the, um, members of our great, you know, Congress and senators were annoyed by a Capitol crawl with, um, members of the community who, um, were, um, who use, um, assistant devices, um, like wheelchairs, walkers, they went to the Capitol and actually crawled up the steps because they were so slow to approve the ad a in 1990 it disrupted so many of their lives trying to get to work. They said, let's just go ahead and pass it. Um, but it has become a great tool and a stronghold. But I always think that that's very interesting that that is what is known kind of to get that push of it being approved. We've talked on the show about intersectionality and um like how those like how identities work together in terms of how close people are to power and what pulls them away from power. So what I kind of heard you say was that, that your identity as a person living with a disability and your recognition of the protections under the ad a act gave you, you use that as a way to have like to further access to power. Were you saying, like in ways that you found you didn't navigate or didn't know how to navigate it successfully with your other identities? Like you sort of like pushed forward one identity? Yeah. So for me, um that protection isn't there because I think about times where I've experienced racism or sexism and it's hard to prove and oftentimes it gets swept up, oh, they didn't mean it, you know, like that or, you know, well, let's just talk about it or discuss it because people, you know, are say, oh, well, they didn't know. But under the ad A um I found that uh there's none of that. There's a, you didn't know however you do it again, you're gonna lose your job. Um And we don't find that type of protection when it comes to um sexism and ableism. So there's a level of power that I feel that I have there that I can also then bring in my other identities. Um I had a situation um where I did have to report somebody. Uh I reported a coworker and the dean. Um and um for a situation and I brought up in that conversation as well. That one of the things that was also said was a dog whistle, a dog whistle for racism. And that was also heard by the ad a coordinator and agreed um as well. So not only am I saying that I have this power there? I'm also gonna advocate for my other identities and how those things combine um are what is bringing it about. But this is how I can go after it. That subject needs to really like we really need to dive into intersectionality like that. Um But it also made me think and I don't know, man, you can answer this it and what you were saying about when you were or when Whitney was talking about going through her illness at work. It just made me think about how we look at. Uh I was trying to think further beyond this ability, how companies in the culture don't really let you focus on your sick time or like I'm sick. It COVID has changed again because now everyone doesn't want you. They're like, 00 you sneeze, you blinked wrong. I'm gonna need for you to go home. But that was not a, that was not a thing. It was like you work until you can't work no more. You cough, it's fine. Still come in. Have you seen any of that change throughout your work? Uh, of trying to make everyone aware of, you know, disabilities that are, are, that are out there? Yeah. Um, I think that to your point it magnified or got really big, um, with COVID. But before that I think that a lot of companies and I'll even say the nation started leaning towards, like, being able to, like, self care, like self care was a thing before COVID. It's just gotten bigger now because you, you're recognizing and you could put a name to it or you could put a label to it. Um, I think that exhaustion is part of a lot of chronic conditions. Like fatigue is a real thing. You get, sometimes when you're depressed it's like you're tired. So, I think that the conversations about self care are the easy ways, you know, less disruptive, uh, to start suggesting that let's just think about people's well being because if you cannot take care of yourself or you don't have enough to pour from your cup, then they're not hopeful for you just being on the clock 24 7. Yeah, I agree with that. And that, um, I think remote work was a huge thing as well because right now we have one of the highest, um, employment rates for people with disabilities and illnesses. Um, I think that we've had in the last like few decades and that's because of remote work. Um, and so it's looking at the ways that people who have disabilities have been able to actually be gainfully employed, um, because they've had access to something that was readily denied, um, before. But as we saw companies, universities, everyone was able to fully operate and run. Um, well, while people were working remotely and sometimes even better, um, I feel like I get more done when I'm at home. Um especially because especially if you like your coworkers. What are we doing when we're in the office? We are talking, we are hanging out.-- I'm-- straight hey guys, how are y'all, all day long? Ok. Um We'll my, me and my coworkers, we get along really well in my office, we'll sit there, it'll, we get off at 430 we'll look at 530 because we're all sitting in the front with all our stuff just talking, you're at home, you, you know, you can do that. Um We're on team sometimes on video, but it's not the same because you can, you know, be working at your desk, you know, simultaneously. So I think it was helpful to have those things. Um But I also think that the pandemic was a little harmful for some of us who have chronic conditions because we saw how people were so readily able to kind of throw us out to the wolves when people were like, well, what about people with chronic conditions? It's like, oh, well, you know, we'll go out and it doesn't matter. I have a, a question about the remote work. And so we were kind of talking about it in the beginning a little bit too before we started recording and this is taking it in a slightly different direction. I know one of the things that I've read out in the atmosphere is that well, remote work, like, yeah, remote work is great but that face time with people or like promotional opportunities and like being visible with leadership and like seeing people is, um, is a thing like this sort of like intangible thing or something that it's going to lead to promotions for some and not others. So, like, I guess I'm curious if you guys have thoughts and perspectives on how to promote equity with recognition in remote work that it's so it's like a bigger topic than I guess it isn't necessarily a bigger topic because what's good for all people who are working remotely is good for everyone. Like, how should we think about equity in the remote work space to promote everyone in some of those areas? Um Yeah, I think this, um kind of like you said, it's kind of for everybody and it kind of leads into a biased conversation. Um, because I think it becomes where people kind of judge people off of these intangible things that are not actually the requirement, um, for some of these things, it's like, oh, well, this person comes in all the time. This person does this, they smile at me as I'm walking by or things like that, that are not actually what we should be looking for when it comes to this promotion. Um, and really, even when we're doing interviews for new positions, we should be judging each individual person off of the requirements for the job. Not saying that, oh, Porsha was better than Iman or so on and so forth. We not, should not be judging people across each other. We should be judging them about the requirements. So if I'm working from home and I'm getting things done and I'm working at this high level that should be seen um the same as someone who's in person working at a high level or, you know, if somebody's at home slacking and somebody's at the office doing amazing work, it should not be because of where they are, you know, it should be based upon what their work is. And then, you know, just as we have Zoom, we have teams, we can see each other if we need to and have those connections, we can connect on linkedin, we can do all these types of things. But again, I thought I was like the 100% work at home girly and I, I still am to a certain point point, but I do enjoy, you know, seeing the coworkers that I like having a good time at work sometimes being able to meet some people across campus that I haven't met before. But does that take me going in every day or even once a week? Probably not, especially when it comes to meeting, you know, maybe the president of the university or other deans at other colleges. This is gonna be maybe like a once a quarter, once a year, sometimes type of event that I need to show up to where they should know my name. If I'm trying to talk to them from the work that I've been doing. Not because I've been in their face and, you know, you said that because there are staff that work from home that sometimes I feel like I gotta go to your house, like what you doing and then there are staff that work from home and I'm like slow down like what you gonna do tomorrow. So I totally get that. That is just the person, it's just a person work ethic, the integrity. Um and how they wanna be held accountable. So it doesn't matter if you're in person or in the, I mean, or working remote, it just depends on that person's ability to do the work. Yeah, because it all comes down to like, what expectations have you set up for your team. You, you, you couldn't give me a definition before the pandemic. So yes, it's gonna be, you, you're, you're you're just reaching for straws. Uh Once we're all at home, I think that um I happened to roll out a help desk ticket system right before the pandemic. So like we have technology out here that will do all the math for us for metrics. How many emails are you responding to? How long does it take you to get to the response? How many files are you uploading to each student record? You know, it's, it's all about talk, call time. How long are you on the call? What's the space in between each call you're taking? There is technology out here to help you do that but it's gonna be the institution or the unit to have a definition of what success is to be able to compare folks output to that. Not where you are. If I saw your face, if you, if you waved at me at the water cooler, like all that does not matter about if you are a uh social, enough person to fit the culture, like cut that. So I dropped, I dropped something in the chat that reads leaders shape workplace culture by setting expectations, holding others accountable and modeling practices and behaviors they want to see in others when leaders support workplace equity, they proactively seek thoughts, perspectives, experience styles across the spectrum. So, yeah, I agree. And I think it's a um it's gonna become a generational thing too because I feel like even as some of us are breaking some of these chains. We've been internalized. Like I remember even, you know, when I first started working my girl and be like, don't miss any days, you know, don't take any time off or what you doing at home? It's like, girl, I got PTO. That's why I'm at home or I had a sick day. Um, but I think even though feelings of, uh, you know, I'm supposed to be at work at eight, do I make it to work at eight? Maybe during finals when I'm, when I'm administering exam? But any other time, probably not. But do I feel bad about that? I have before? But then I thought about the fact that now I have teams on my phone the other day. I was lagging a little bit. Somebody called me, I answered the phone while I was getting dressed here. So I'm like, oh, actually, you know what I'm working, even though I'm not in the building, you know, I'm supposed to be there today, but I'm already started working. I might hit response to an email at 730 before I even get off the bed to head to work. I've started my day. I've started working. I can accept calls. I can accept emails just because I'm supposed to be in the building today and I'm not there yet. Does not mean I have not started my job and don't be checking me boo, I just have to throw that in there don't be checking me boo like ok, I'm just saying she was doing, you know she was doing what she's supposed to be doing. Don't be checking me boo. Ok, sorry Porsha Sheree. Ok Sheree. Uh no, I mean I get that but also on the same token it is hard for me to undo those generational things just like you just talked about Whitney and it because yes, I saw my mama work and never take any days off and still run the household. And so it's hard for me to process that. Oh, wait, hold on. The world that I grew up in is different from the world now. So I can't do the things that she does. Um, but when I do work and, and, and then, you know, vacation, it's hard for me to realize like it's ok. It is ok. I'm, I'm, I'm study or II I will calculate if I like leave work early. I'm like, oh my God. Ok. Hold on, I left a little early but then I know I don't calculate all the many times that I've stayed late. I do not, I'm like, oh God, I hope, you know. So it is, it is a muscle that I have to exercise more. So I'll say this. Um, I still work on that in my brain. I know it is ok. Right. That it is ok to work 6.5 hours a day. Get the best you can get out, make sure you prioritize the stuff that needs to be responded to first. But because of my chronic illness and I am anticipating and a time that I might need to have some additional downtime or I anticipate closer to my yearly or twice a year infusions that I'll need a day or two. After that. I feel like I'm working on being able to say it is ok mom in 365 days or in 52 working weeks, there are gonna be ebbs and flows that are not gonna be the standard week all the time. So that's just something that I have to remind myself on and putting on the wax that we, we know this in our heads and like, you know, that that makes sense. But sometimes your emotions connected to whatever else is going in your life, which is health, which is disability, which is chronic illness of like, you still have to remind yourself on that. Um Additionally to that, I think that um Whitney's point was definitely something I had to remember. I left the community college in Chicago. That's where I was working for 9.5 years. I have an aunt who worked in the adult education GED Department, same campus. But you know, cross campus and she retired after 35 years, the folks in my family could not believe why I would pack my things and leave this good paying job. That I could retire from in 30 years with a nice pension to move to Maryland to try something else. And I'm like, because it's ok, generationally, we're not gonna stay at jobs for 30 something years. We're gonna get what we need. We are going to make the changes and the enhancements to the department and for which they work for, for how many years you stay and you can move on and have other experiences. So, yes, you can be sick. Yes. Yes, you can change your uh direction of your career. I am in higher ed. I'm still a registrar on enrollment management, but I've been at a few different schools over the last eight years since moving to Maryland. So that's just another reminder that I try to, you know, keep in the back of my mind. It's a good reminder for people who are chronically ill or not, that we have to often give ourselves grace as we're learning through a lot of these things. And there are often things that people do not realize whether they are, you know, chronically ill, disabled or not that through um COVID, our bodies change drastically. So even talking about generationally, I'm not the same person. I was, you know, February 2020 as I am now. Um in terms of my body, like even looking back, like how did I go to work? Five days a week, go work out, go cook. I my body, we now could not fathom that. And, you know, we say, oh, you know, just because we got lazy, quote unquote, no, our bodies physically changed. And I know this because I get, you know, scans and things in my lungs done. I do breathing tests. There are definitely things that got stronger in my lungs and things that went completely down. And that's because we were sedentary, not doing as much, um, physical labor with our lungs, not going outside as much, not as much exposure. And it wasn't just my body that these things changed, then they changed in everybody. So you have to be things happen, things change. The pe person you were in 2019 is not the person you are now and it was never going to be. So you always have to be comfortable that you're gonna change. Nothing's ever gonna remain the same. And so you should flex your feelings, your emotions and what you're able to do. You know, through that time, I love how Acro has been listening to you ladies and making some changes. Can you talk to us about what those changes are or, and even tell us the journey of what you had to do or what, what you did that acro listened to that led to where we are now. Um I think it was the presentation um that we did in si and then we did at annual meeting, um was just starting the conversation. Um Really what it was, is we had already planned to go to si honestly, we were like, Toronto sign us up. Um You know, I done some, some stuff before but I was like, you know, this is the one, this is the person one they go back to, we got the notification that they were still looking um for proposals. So I went to, to the acre site to look to see, you know, what was included in the D I area and disability was not listed. And I was like, interesting. So then I went to the website and kind of search where was disability or chronic illness listed. It was like a sub sex somewhere talking about students and it was just like one off possible topic um in the area. So I was like, oh, ok, we're not paying attention to this so disruptor, we're about to talk about it. So um let's go ahead and put this proposal in and I dare y'all to reject it. So um I put it in and I said, ok, I don't know we what we fully about to talk about. We're gonna talk about something because it's not being discussed at all. So I think from there, we just started those conversations, people noticed when they approved that um from acro that oh yeah, we might have been thinking about it, but we haven't talked about it. And even to that point at annual meeting, so many people said they've been going to conferences for decades, different ones, acro and have never been in a session that was about disability or chronic illness, especially as it related to staff and faculty and students. Um because they just did not feel seen um at a lot of conferences. So from there, you know, we heard that our session kind of sparked the movement behind having the accessibility task force um which we are both a part of. And it's just gonna get us to look at our um products at our events for acro a lot clo more closely so that we can make sure that they are access as accessible as possible and that, that grows um as time moves on, like specifically those conversations that happened, like when we bring something up and then someone in the audience is like, oh yeah, by the way, um I'm 60 years old and I just lost my hearing and it's nice to see um a sign language interpreter, but I never learned sign language American sign language because I just became hard of hearing. So I didn't learn it. I need something else. So these conversations are coming up. Um And that's something that gives us an opportunity to give suggestions to Acro on what next steps could be all through that task force. Whitney's talking about. Um And then also reminding folks that with health care and the day and times like we're living longer. So again, to which point about like you live long enough, you're gonna, something is going to affect you to the point where you're gonna need some other type of assistance or accommodation. And again, just starting the conversation making it comfortable for schools and organizations to make these changes now is only to make it easier for when we have an older population, which we are because we're part of this group that might live longer than anticipated, you know, generations before. Yeah. And I even think about, um there's so much that we don't think about until, I mean, I think that's a higher ed thing in general. It's like we wait till the trees smack us in the face instead of looking for them. Um But I think um when we think about even having that conference in Denver, um where the altitude was what it was and we didn't really get any notification of such and it affected a lot of us who have chronic illnesses and even those who don't. Um it affected everybody. So I will say that even just saying, hey, this location, these things can happen. Um is, yes. So, so many nosebleeds, so many headaches. Um So, so my oxygen levels drop and the odd thing is that I there was an admissions conference there the year before and, you know, trigger one and someone passed away. And so when I mentioned how my oxygen dropped um to some people who had gone to that conference they just kind of were like, oh my gosh, I wonder was the altitude part of, you know, what happened. So we need to be cognizant of the location. That location was also huge. You know, at the last minute I decided to rent a mobility scooter and as I was scooting around, you know, riding around and getting it, I was like, there's a lot of us in here because we could have been on this scooter like who wanna hop on the back too because this is a huge location, you know, even people who are able bodies definitely definitely needed it. So just kind of those small considerations. Um Iman and I have talked about and we'll probably mention again that we need some little name badges for. I wanna say I want a chronically ill um um thing that's on my name badge. You know, a lot of people argue that oh people aren't gonna be comfortable but, you know, we have all types of ones. We have LG TB qi A ones and everyone's not out like I'm out chronically ill. Like put, let me put one on me. I'm proud those that want to, to flex, let them flex and it's OK like you can't hold nobody like that. I'm, I'm comfortable where I am. I can't help that you're not there and I don't expect you to be there, but I'm here and I'm ready to, to share.-- So I like,-- yeah, and that gives you the opportunity to identify a person that may be able to answer some questions for you. We've had conversations amongst ourselves about, OK, I'm Tashana and Porsha are black women. They have to choose sometimes about where to kind of show up and be present because literally the timing of things can overlap with each other. I am curious about your thoughts related to like the caucus structure and this topic and how you see it being either present, needing to be present or emerging within the caucus structure as it exists today or you know, what, how that might shape out in the future in some kind of different way of like representation of power of a community and like the power of a caucus. Yeah, I, that's been my idea since si and I actually mentioned it at our first meeting that I definitely want um you know, a disability or chronically ill um caucus to be developed. But also I will say that every time I've thought about it is I've thought about will I miss the black caucus meeting and you know, and things like that and how we can, you know, structure those to come together. It's like, well, if Iman and I are leading the caucus, like, well, I have to go to this meeting this time and she has to go to this one that there are oftentimes becomes a choice when all of us have these um identities that are intersectional and just to make sure we're, you know, defining intersectionality, right? It is about mostly minoritized identities, um that and the struggle that they've dealt with it because we need these communities um to kind of get through our day to day lives and our jobs. We need the, you know, the women's caucus, you know, to deal with our issues as women, we need the black caucus, we need the disability caucus. We need the LGBT Qi A because we've been dealing with things that we need to talk about people in community with and when we have to choose it, it becomes a struggle and, and I, I'm just gonna say something real quick, we like to put it in pairs. But sometimes you've got people who was, who could be all of the caucuses like and that I like how would we do that? But yeah, I was just gonna say I just wanted to throw a little monkey wrench being that we're talking about the caucuses because if they pass that Senate bill, there will be no more caucuses because they want togetherness, not separation. So we'll all be in a room together. Well, that's good because I, I'm already um in between young professionals because I'm like, I only got a few more years so I can get the now, I'm just playing it. No, I'm just playing ageism.-- That's-- all of the ISS because Whitney said it's all the ISMs. So, right. So I'm like, you know, we already have to make the decision. I get it. Uh, but we'll see, uh, to Whitney's point is like, um, that Porsche's point too, there, there's one individual that could very well through a lifespan, even through just their academic or professional tenure in higher ed cross all the spectrums, um, just making the space so that we could all get together. Is it gonna even out the playing field so that we don't have to make that choice? Yeah, for sure. And, and, and to think about all these bills that people are trying to pass um since we're talking about disability and chronic illness that they're not considering this, you know, they're, they're really just talking about race, you know, sometimes um sexual orientation um queerness, they're not, they're not thinking about disability. And when I say that, you know, although we talked about how the ad A came as a form, um It is a stronghold. So when you get to really saying we're washing out de I and that is really actually a portion of it. Although people don't talk about it, you have some really strong legal protection that they're not gonna be able to come against. So like, let's say when, if, when and if it goes to the Supreme Court, you're gonna have all these different areas who have very strong legal strongholds that are gonna probably knock those types of things out. I would hope even if we just lay all our hope on the ad a, I feel like it's gonna be kinda knocked out. Hopefully. Can we get a bill written up? I'm with you Whitney. Ok. We need it. We need a lot of stuff and it's like, I work at a law school and I, I would not torture myself so much as to go to law law school ever because I think it's horrific. Um, however, you know, I do look into the laws like disability laws, employment laws and one of my favorite professors there is the employment um law professor and we talk about it um a few times about, you know, this intersectional identities and how they can protect it. He writes often about the need for a super statute which would let people with uh multiple minoritized identities really protect themselves under the law. So it's definitely something that's needed. And the good thing is legal scholars and a lot of other people are beginning to discuss it. And I think it's something that we all need to talk about because discrimination isn't just um a only child. It's often a bunch of siblings, triplets quadruple, it's coming in all together. So we really need to have, you know, a super statute in every state in the United States everywhere.-- To-- go back to you would not go to law school, everyone. She has a Whitney West on the back of her background doctor will be added I don't know why you limit yourself. Yes. Yes. I don't know why you're limiting yourself because Esquire could be up underneath that as well. So, look, maybe if I'm forced and tortured one day because I'm already thinking about an NBA, why? I don't know because I like it. So maybe I do like torture enough to maybe one day go to law school, but it's not here yet. So, if you were to um both of you kind of put into the podcast universe, a call to action for our community, we already talked about um at the beginning, just talking about it and just like being vocal and recognizing that by making things better for like by focusing on these issues, you're making things better for everyone. What would your kind of call to action be for the community that might be here in this conversation? Make a strong effort to be informed. Like you have to ask the questions if you really want to help, right? Um If you want to be able to make the change on your campus, if you want to make the change to support folks that are there, you have to like stay informed um listening and having the conversations is that first step, but like actively going out to get that information is my largest, most strong call of action. Um For me, um as the disruptor I say is that you have to interrupt the cycle at some point. And also as the academic, like I am developing like a framework of the cycle of ableism and the key to stopping that is interrupting the cycle. And I think one of the best places to do that is one of the second steps in there is like complicity for me. Um Well, the first step is complicity um before it becomes incarcerated into the society of wherever you're working or your life. And when you're complicit, it's like you're just letting things happen around you, you see them, you may recognize they are wrong but you refuse to say something. And I feel like that's one of the strongest places is to interrupt, to just say, hey, you know, I don't think what you said is right. I may not be sure exactly how, but I think we need to educate ourselves on um this thing because if not, we're just gonna continue the cycle. Um making everyone feel like it's ok. Um And I, I have a, a love hate relationship with allyship in most forms because people like to come to you on the side and say, hey, I'm an ally, I'm here to support you. But if you're not doing that interrupting in public, you're not an ally, you're just scared. Um So if you're just coming to me on the side, that is nothing but you know, whispers and gossip. If you can't say it publicly, I don't know why we do this in video but everybody's finger snapping just so we know that everybody's clear why this silence was here. Yeah,-- this was a great-- conversation. I wish I could snap. I can't, you know what, some days I feel like I can.-- Some days I can't,-- I'll be popping that neck as to be going be like, get over here. I,-- I surprised-- myself the other day I was walking into the Starbucks and they were playing Michael Jackson. I snapped at, I mean, people turned around. I said,-- I didn't know it-- was that loud, Michael will take you there. Look, my target was playing Maze and Frankie Beverly. And I said, who ready to start a lion dance? Like I was like, before I let go. This was a great conversation. Ladies, I absolutely love this and II, I feel like I could talk to you all about this subject matter for a very long time and I in part is because I, I am learning. I am making that effort to try to do better and learn more. So I appreciate you all coming on the show to helping us uh to and, and spreading the word and um we would love to have you back again. So I'm excited. I just want to also say like we're also learning um even people who have been, you know, disabled or chronically ill from the time that they were born, you know, are still learning because it's so it's so deep in our society, you know that we're all learning and we need to learn together. So don't ever be ashamed to not know something to say the wrong words. We're all gonna do it. Um But yeah, we're all, we're all learners here. I just, I just wanna throw out um that a while ago, many, many years ago. So my daughter's godfather, he is a quadriplegic and we actually did a video um to just display how he lives and things like that. And then it actually made it to the newspaper. He's from New Jersey. His name is Professor X. Um, he's done a lot of things with, um, the Clintons. He's done a lot of things with Christopher Reeve before he passed away. So you get a chance to look him up. But, um, yeah, he's, I've learned a lot and still learning um, from him. But yeah, it's, it's been and when I was just, you know, younger, I didn't really understand a lot of things because he would say, oh, well, give me that I'd be like you get it, you know, like you can do it, you can go get it. But he has taught me a lot. He has taught his community a lot and he actually, he's doing a really big thing. So just wanted to throw that out that I'm not totally, you know, naive to ableism, um, disabilities because it's actually in my family. But I really appreciate you ladies. And Whitney, I had wanted to interview you like a while ago. And then when I heard, when I saw both of you guys at the session, I was like, oh yes, we got to reach out to them. So I appreciate y'all being here as well. Thank you. It was an, it was like an honor this flew by. Absolutely flew by. And I just wanna stay here and listen to and listen to you and ask you more questions. But, um, I hope that we can do that again. Thanks for listening to her RD. Higher education and real diversity. We'd love to hear from you. So please send us an email at HD at acro.org. Send us your thoughts on this episode or ideas you have for other ones. This episode was edited by Damon. Thanks Damon.