The Complexities of Race (Summer Book Club)

Tashana, Portia, and Ingrid kick-off their Summer Book Club with The Complexities of Race: Identity, Justice and Power in an Evolving America (ed. Charmaine Wijeyesinghe). Each chapter is a different essay exploring possible interventions or considerations to help us think about big questions that emerge from the book’s look at how race and racism shape and are shaped by contemporary issues. The ladies talk about identity, the possibilities of worldmaking, and, “the dangers of being too certain” when it comes to approaching DEI work.

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Hi Acro Community. Welcome to another episode of her. In this episode, Tashana Porsche and I kick off our summer book club with my pick the Complexities of race, identity justice and power in an evolving America. This book is edited by Charmaine Yen and we talked about three chapters in particular that focus on identity and who and when people get to choose their racial and ethnic identities, we talked about world making as a form of resistance and how white people show up to de I work and the dangers of being too certain. It is always a gift talking with Tashana and Porsha and this conversation was no exception. I appreciate them so much. We hope you enjoy our conversation. Let's get started. Hi Acro Community. Welcome to another episode of her. I'm Ingrid Nuttle.-- I'm Porsha-- Lamar and I'm Tashana Curtis. And today kicks off our summer book club and I had the first pick I, we Yeah, I'm so I'm gonna give a little bit of context to why I picked what I um picked, but I picked a book called um The Complexities of Race, identity Justice and Power in an evolving America. And So there are, this book is, has a bunch of different essays in it. It's edited by Charmaine Yasen. I think I'm saying her name right. I hope I am. I've tried to scour the internet figuring out how to, um, say her name, but she has a great intro in the book and has a chapter of her own. And I'm just going to give a little bit of context for what the book is about and how I came to learn about it before we kick things off. So I was introduced to this book um in a class that I took last year in 2022. Um that was on the intellectual history of race. And in that class, we looked at a variety of topics. We certainly dove into intersectionality. Um The sort of roots of racism in thought, its connection to gender and class, which of course, like all of this is related to intersectionality. And this was actually one of the last books that we read, we looked at context all over the world, um not just in the United States. So it was like the, the history of Race in a broader context. And this book was actually the one that I had to kind of lead a discussion on for the class. And it is a little bit of a culmination of many different types of interventions for dismantling like white supremacy and um and oppression. And so the central essential premise of the book. Um And this is actually a quote from the book early on in page four essential premise of the book is that we can gain a fuller understanding of some of the most pressing and contested issues by focusing on the intricate multileveled roles that race and racism play in modern cultural, social and political realms. So that's, that's sort of the premise of the book. But then all of the different chapters are identifying possible intervention points of how to actually do that. How do you actually dismantle racism? So there's lots of different topics that are covered. Um And I know I picked a few chapters to talk about, but before we kind of get started into um some of the things that I've organized for this discussion, I guess I wanna kick it off to Shana and Port and be like, what did you think? What, what were your impressions of the book before I, I answer some more book. Clubby, ask some more book, clubby questions. I mean, I thought it was a good book. I mean, at first approaching all of this, it was I had PTSD like, oh God, I gotta, I have to read this to discuss it. I feel like I was in a classroom, you need to really fully process it. Um But after I got over that feeling, it was a lot of up and down feelings for me. A lot of frustration. A lot of uh oh, aha moments or a lot of, uh, wait a minute, you know, as a person of color who associates with the African American community, it was sometimes I feel as if I'm like, yeah, see that's what I'm talking about but then it's like, wait, no, I, some of these things I feel like I partake in, you know, so it was, it was a lot of emotions reading through this but it was a very good read. I can agree with you on that. It was a lot of emotions. Um I definitely wanna get this book and put it on my shelf because just reading the chapters that you, we were f we were focusing on, I'm like, there's probably other interesting stuff throughout the whole book. So I do plan on getting this book for my shelf. But again, this actually put especially chapter two, it actually put a lot of terms on definitions that I've already know, you know, like, for example, the ethnic fraud, I didn't know there was actually a term for that. Um I knew what the premise was about, but I didn't know there was a term. So it actually put a lot of terms and gave me a lot of interesting reads. But yes, it's very emotional. It's as a black woman. It was very emotional for me as well. I mean, even when you say that to Shana, that's those were the parts where I felt like because you know, uh, and this is like, going right into the chapters, I think it was like you said chapter two, um, when it talked about the R Rachel Dozer effect or whatever. And I was like, yeah, like that was foul. What she did, blah, blah. And I'm like, you don't get to pick your race because I didn't get to pick my race. But if they're saying everybody gets to pick the race, what have you gained from picking? Like, I'm like, I don't know, I just feel like we have so many things that weighs us down that number one. Why would you pick african-american? I'm not sure Rachel. Um two, I guess the other part of it was for me what makes it any different if someone who is mixed race and finds out I am this percentage of this? So I was like, how is that any different from Rachel's? If I had no idea of what Rachel's background was? So it was just like it was, it was difficult for me. Ok, let me dive into that part then. So in reading this after the Rachel and it, it spoke on another person Andrea something she did the same thing. But it, it basically said that when ancestry, that DNA and all of those ancestry dot coms came out that people were having, you know, having that those processes done and the one drop rule. So if let's just use Rachel as an example if it said 1% black, then hey, I'm black or if it's 5% Italian, hey, I'm Italian. So people are changing based off of chapter two, people are changing their identities based off of those results that they are receiving from the DNA. So that is where the multiculture thing comes in because if it says out of 100% I'm 25%. This 50% that 25% that, then which one do I choose? So just as some context for like this part of the chapter, what we're talking about um is Rachel Dolezal, who's there's a pretty well known public case, her involvement with N A AC P and she identified as very publicly and made, I mean, a career off of her identification as a African American woman. And then there was um she was for a lack of a better term outed as not being African American. And she has continued to claim affinity um as a black woman and like that, that is how she self identifies. And one of the things the chapter explores within in the, at the title of the chapters who gets to choose, right? And so like one of the things that is explored in the chapter is how that there are these different um ways these like categories in which race is experienced and identified that the author brings out there. And one of them is like biological. So if you, if we believe that race is a social construct, right? Like that race is something that society has constructed. What does that mean in terms of your self identification? If we believe race is a biological construct, what does that say about how I identified? And then there's like cultural, there's all these different ones. And I think one of, one of the things I really appreciated about the chapter and the reason I wanted you guys to read it, there's a couple of reasons one is like, it's all intertwined together. It isn't like so to I think kind of maybe one of the things you're both of you are saying is Rachel Dolezal presents as white, right? So it's like socially society, culturally and in fact, biologically like she, she is perceived in society as a white woman. But what if you are one of the things the chapter says, what if you are a mixed race person? That's what I was saying. Yeah. Right. And what makes it different? What makes it any different now, the, the obvious difference is how Rachel made a career out of it. But if she hadn't and no one knew who she was and she didn't hit the mass media the way she did, she could have been viewed as someone who just found out any, especially a lot of what you have adoption if you um if II I know this is not his story. However, Kaepernick was raised by two white parents. What if he did not know his background and was more presenting white and then found out, oh, I am half white and half black and I had no idea what makes his situation that I just made up any different from Rachel's situation. Besides the fact that she, you know, became and made a whole successful career out of it. That was, that's how this whole chapter, to be honest with you led me in straight confusion because I don't know which way to go. I don't know which way to go. I'm holding on to what we have. I'm holding on to the, the baggage that we have. But at the same time, I'm also understanding like it's not a lot of us that are 100% any race nowadays, you know, and it's, it's, it's, it just gets not, not worse. It's, it's gonna get more evolved in, in that way as well, you know, in here as well. Um It said about the various, the different categories. So we have the racial category, then we have racial identity and then racial identification and a person might choose a particular racial category in any given situation for any number of reasons most likely based on the constrained categorical cho choices offer. So I had translated that, for example, if I'm filling out an application and I see, you know, like I do not cho I do not pick African American. I've never been to Africa I don't even know if my ancestors came from Africa. So I don't pick that. But if black is not there, do I leave it blank? Like what do I put? So that's where I think people would just say, well, OK, I don't see this there. Let me just pick this one then and to Shana, I'm so glad you brought that up because I think that is as it relates to higher ed to one of the things that is talked about in the chapter is how we present self identification choices to people in our institutions. And I think one of um the author um Mark uh Mark Johnson Guerrero's argument is like, we need to reckon with that complexity and give people more options, like give people core together with community, better reflections of our identity and then figure out together how that gives us purchase. And I wanna like, recognize that this conversation and like the picking of this book pre dated um some of the kind of more heightened developments and um things that are happening with the Supreme Court decision that is coming down. So I, I want to like, acknowledge that that's out there. I, I don't, no, I, I don't know that we're going to dive into that within the context of this book, but that is connected, it is definitely connected to all of this complexity and how people want to be able to self identify and not put themselves in two to necessarily one box I think about, there was um an individual at our session at Acro who stood up and said, like, kind of named the, the many different ethnic racial identities that they hold, but how they present to the world is perceived as only one, but they find affinity and want to honor and recognize in community, all of their identities. And so it isn't just who gets to choose, but how can they possibly choose? Right. We've talked about that with the caucuses too, right? Yeah, that was, and that was also, and um that was a good two good examples with the Filipino community. Um How that they don't, you know, they have to go with the, I guess Asian or say, select Asian or whatever, but they don't really feel that way or whatever, but I don't wanna say too much without referring to the book because I don't fully remember. Um But the other one that stood out to me, which I had read about was Meghan Markle. Um how she, you know, was told to tell to select white because that's what she looked like. But she realized that to select one of the other meant denying one of the other parent and background and history and like everything rolls into that. So this was a very interesting chapter and there and, oh, the other thing that resonated with me was the um the um unwritten rules. There are 100% on run unwritten rules. Yeah, because even if you do find out and, and I feel like, um we are always putting ourselves up against each other and like, well, did you do this? Did you do this? There's a thing called um uh I'm not telling too much but, you know, we like to joke in the, in the black community about your black card. Like, no, I'm taking points off your black card because you didn't do this or you didn't do that, that is solely associated with the black community. But there that does not mean that you're not black. So uh and those are the unwritten rules that we talk about like, well, how, how would I even know that if I wasn't even around that? But you know, Porsha, you said something interesting when we first started, although on paper, I may self identify as with another race or another culture background. But when people see me, they're just going to say I'm black, one husband mad her, you know, they're just going to say I'm black. So and it's interesting to know too in reading this chapter that the census when the census from 4010, approximately 9.8 million people changed their ethnicity, they changed their background, which is very interesting because now I'm interested in knowing how many people came to the black side, how many people went to that side. So this was definitely an eye opening chapter and how those, how those choices are used and what they mean and how it ties to other systems of like support pers like all of the connectedness of our individual choices to all of those things. Um I'm really thank you for this conversation about this chapter. I'm gonna move us into the wait. I'm just gonna say, I, I just wanna say one final thing and reading the chapter two from now on when I go and fill out an application or doing something, I'm gonna make my own box. Yes, because Meghan Markle say it. She said, which is super interesting because of all of this stuff about her relationship with her dad. Can I just like, I need to throw that in there because I know there's been a lot of stuff about her relationship with her dad. So it was also interesting to read in the context of this book that he was the one, right? He's white. She's never had a bad relationship with her dad up until she became into the royal family. That's when it all came about. And again, this is side tracking from our topic. However, it was just how the royal family um communicates. They do not give you an opportunity to communicate, they have a whole area to communicate. So her dad was not allowed to do anything extra. And when you've got paparazzi and all that stuff around you and they pay you. That's when it became an issue and a problem and she had to separate herself from that. I would be, I would love to know if she's uh, reconciled that relationship since they are not part of the royal family anymore to be continued. Yeah. OK. Let's move on to chapter four. So, um chapter four is queer and trans people of color and um world making, that is the topic and what this chapter explores is the possibility for world making to kind of push against systems of oppression for queer and trans people and probably a good idea um to kind of define world making. So, in the context of the book, um the, the chapter says that World Making refers to the epistemological, discursive and performative politics that QTPOC employ as they destabilize, compulsorily compulsory heterosexual and, right? White racial homogeneous spaces and locations and create anti oppressive sexually heterogeneous counter publics. OK. So what does that mean? I I think what it means basically is creating a world in which queer and trans people of color can exist as their fullest selves in a world that is both within, you know, the real physical world that we're all living with, but that stands in opposition to oppressive structures. So some of the examples that were given in the book for how world making has occurred over history or like the dance culture in New York during the HIV A I DS epidemic, right? And that that, that is a celebration, like was a celebration of possibility was a celebration of um identity in this larger social context of like oppression and terror on queer and trans people. So like, that's like, like Stan's encounter to that um the ballroom culture that's represented in the show pose is also brought up as a a way of um creating doing world making. So that's the, that's like what the chart, the chapters make an argument that this is a that world making is a good intervention, right? For breaking down white supremacy. Um pushing back against it and pushing against gendered um gender discrimination and identity discrimination. So I guess I'm interested in your thoughts. Like what are the possibilities of world making? Like what did you think about this concept? Maybe overall? Um I thought it was AAA great concept. I I would to, to piggyback off of what you said that ballroom culture was created for brown and black people because they were not able to be in the pageant industry when it came to the uh queer culture. So which was predominantly white. So they created and made their own type of celebration, which was the ball uh Ballroom culture. I highly highly recommend you all watch uh the documentary I believe it's on Netflix, Hulu. One of the two Paris is burning. It gives a great, great, great insight. It is actual footage. It is actual. Um yeah, footage of what ballroom culture looks like interviews of the people who may have felt outcasted from one to another. And then there's another, uh I'll have to look it up or put it in the description that um that showcases the pageant industry in the uh queer community as well. But um I am here for it. I love it. I don't know if people understand that. What came out of ballroom culture was your lovely Madonna and her voguing that was 100% from the queer community, ballroom culture. She did not make that up. That was them on those Friday Saturday nights doing all of that. Um And then it went mainstream. A lot of queer people benefited from that because they were able to, you know, and I saw pose, I've seen pose like three times um the whole entire series because I love pose. It's a good series to watch. But uh it created jobs, dancing jobs, it created um opportunities in entertainment being with Madonna. Um And then when it all, it was a fad, it was a trend and unfortunately, they were kind of tossed to the side. So uh it, it has its good things and it has its bad things. Um I would hope that world making just sustains. I think that's what I would want when you say tossed to the side. What do you mean? Because, you know, it also, you know, in reading this chapter, it seems like when a group is threatened by another group that, that's where the resistance, that's where the, the confusion and, you know, the the hate comes in pretty much. Um So that was really interesting to read. Um And it really hit light because that's true. It's like any time any culture tries to do anything and when it's becoming a dominated thing, something they just throw a monkey wrench in there and shoot it down, turn it into something that is not even what it is or what it was ever intended to be. But in that particular statement, that community was always receiving that treatment. So let me be honest and real and say world making and voguing and, and Madonna and Baldwin culture, even though it was mainstream, it never alleviated the pressure and the stress that that community received when it came to being gay, being part of that community being LGBT Q plus, it never alleviated any of that stress. They still received a lot of backlash. Um It was that to me, I view it as it was that that glimpse of hope in, in all this badness. Um But in the, in the terms of pushed aside on how I said it, it just meant like those jobs were no longer available and no other jobs were made prevalent for them. It was kind of like, oh OK, Vogue is over. Bye. We don't need you anymore. I just listened um this morning to an interview with Trace Laet who was in so she was in the movie Hustlers. Um She was also featured, there's a really great Netflix documentary too. I want to do a shout out called Disclosure, which is about the history of trans people in Hollywood. It's fantastic. I think everybody should watch it. And she is in a movie, she's starring in a movie that um is called Monica that features a, it, she is a trans woman and it features her as the lead. This movie was um like received a standing ovation at the Venice Film Festival. It was first started being worked on in 2016. It didn't um get, even after the Venice Film Festival, they had a hard time picking it, getting it picked up for distribution. I mean, and this is like you think about, OK, well, people's incentives, like even in uh like your incentive is to make money, why would you not pick up this, like, incredibly well received popular film and trace la set in this interview with the podcast. I absolutely love. Keep it. I'm going to do a shout out to that. If you are interested in pop culture and all of these things, please listen to keep it. Um She was talking about how it's like there's all of these accomplishments, all of these um like doors that have had to have been broken down, reimagining and still and still and still you have to fight to get things done and now this film is distributed. But like, I haven't even looked to see, is it going to be coming to Minneapolis? Is it limited release in, you know, New York in the, in the coast? And like more like New York L A areas? But just even when um there is success, there's still to your point, I think Porsha, like um there's still oppression. And so how, what it leads me to think about is how I you gotta seek it out. Like you got, you have to be interested, you have to be curious, you have to find different perspectives because if, if one is just waiting for it to kind of hit the mainstream, whatever, like quote unquote air quotes, mainstream culture is you're not going to find it because there are forces trying to keep, get out. Yeah. Um And then uh this chapter also talked about a lot of the vernacular that uh is used um in mainstream is a, an attempt for world making. But again, um and I think sometimes I obviously words that are said out of me are just my own opinion, but we can 100% lose all the historical references, contexts behind something when it turns mainstream. And that to me is a frustration. Um When you hear yes or slay, you know, those things are not because an influencer said it first. And that's sometimes, unfortunately, when it has, when it hits mainstream is when you have these people who call themselves influence or say it and then like the super mainstream gets it, you know, but in all actuality, it was said way before that and we don't know where it comes from or a lot of people say it and don't know the background or the meaning and why. And I just don't know how we can um involve both the historical part and yes, continue to use it but know why you're using it. Um case in point. So I have always said, and this is a funny story and a lot of people know, me know this story. I have always obviously love the drag community um in love with Rupaul and Rupaul's drag race. Watch it constantly. When I received my computer at work laptop, I had stickers on there. I'm representing um my hometown, I'm representing phrases that are said on Rupaul's drag cart race. And one of the phrases is um when uh she's choosing, when Rupaul is choosing contestants on the show, she wants contestants to display uniqueness, nerve, charisma, uniqueness, nerve, and talent. OK. I had that. I had that sticker and I was like, yes, because this is me again. I am involved in this community. Not, I'm not in the community, I'm not part of the community, but I feel like I seek out knowledge to know and learn the community more. There's always opportunities to learn more. I'll say that uh it, it took two years being in the pandemic working from home where my husband, the words were listed in vertical order. So imagine, because I'm not gonna say it charisma underneath that was uniqueness underneath, that was nerve. And underneath that was talent, he quickly understood that the first letters in these words spelled out something I've been going around in meetings and everything with this computer because you know, my mind, I can, I got all these, I embody all of these. But what I did not know was the historical purpose behind using this. This was a word, a term that was used against this community derogatory and they persevered through it and repurposed the word into this. See then this is what I'm saying. We lose sometimes the content of where it comes from because you're just like, yeah, that is so great. It hit mainstream. Wonderful. No. And that goes, you know, and I don't like you saying a word but when they say the ninja word with the er or the ninja word with the A R that makes a difference. And I language is one of the things that is taught. First of all pia, thank you like, thank you for sharing that story. And to Shana, I appreciate you actually bringing up that connection because that was in my mind too. Um of like words matter how they're said and who says them like those two pieces together. Um The chapter does bring up terms like where, you know, throwing shade, like where does that term come from? And who gets to say it? And how has it become popularized or spilling tea? Um I think of, I was at a um like a training that was being led by um a woman who I would say she appeared to be white like me kind of looked like me and she um was talking about something related to the training. And she said, and I said to them, hold on sister soldier and I like froze. And there were, the room was mostly white women and there were like two African American women who were at this training in front of me and all they did, they were at the table with me and all they did was look at each other with like a OK and everything just moved along and everybody kind of laughed. And I, and I just remember being like, wow, that is like, how did that make its way into this context? Devoid and divorced from who says it? And what that actually means? I mean, I, I knew I know of sister soldier from public enemy, but like I would never be like going into a meeting and saying that it's a lot of levels of cringe,-- it's a lot of levels-- of Yeah. Yeah. And she meant she, of course, did she meet it in any kind of an appropriating way? I'm confident she had no idea but that doesn't, just because you don't know, doesn't mean you don't have accountability for knowing. Right. But nobody at that moment calls her out. So when she does her presentation at the next meeting, she may say the same thing 100%. And I did not call her out either. I put something, I put something in my written, I put something in my written evaluation, my feedback um, in writing, but I did not call her out publicly. And I, I think I have thought about that since. Was that the right thing to do? Was it the wrong thing to do? Would it have been centering myself as like a weird cringey ally of being like, that's really weird that you said that, um, I don't know that you understand kind of the ownership of that and what that means and, um who it is and what it's referring to. Um I just think that, I mean, I feel like, and I don't want to discourage people from these world making items that are out there because it is the intent is to get you to be, I guess, more comfortable with that community, have more knowledge, but just take the time out to, to learn the background. I say that, but I know we're not gonna do that because we don't do that in any other real aspect of life. Um And that's just, um, we're not trying to switch there, but if we could go right into the eighth chapter which is the history. We're not learning our history in the correct way and how it really happened to Shana. Did you want? Yeah, you go ahead before we do that. I just was gonna say is just like, um just know your audience, you know. So if I, if I know I have a presentation and there's a room full of whomever there's just certain words or certain things that I'm not going to say because you may offend someone. But again, we need to, I'm my sister's keeper. I will pull you to the side and say, hey, I don't think you should have said that. Yeah. No, I think that's right. And I would, I do. That is right. I do wonder if she, if that had been a room full of African American women, would she have said the same thing-- even like, does she even-- know full or not just one person?-- One-- person, do you even know what you're saying? That's the other question. Do you know what you're saying? Where did that come from? Do you know who? So, so is she's not just a rapper. She is, she's a political philanthropist. She is amazing. Absolutely. Calm down, sister. You could just pause there. Chapter eight. So the last chapter that we were going to talk about, um I have mentioned Zach Fosse um to you all before. So this chapter is on the dangers of racial innocence for, well meaning white people. And it opens with a quote that, um, I would like to read because I, I kind of want to dissect it a little bit and it's just pretty informative, I would say for some of my own perspectives or things I think about, um, as a white person and the quote is by George Nancy. I believe it's from one of his books, but I haven't been able to just kind of get down on, on specifically which one? Um, but here's what he says as white, you must be open to a kind of death, a death of your stubbornness, a death of your denials, a death of your innocence, a death of your arrogance, a death of your racial comfort, a death of your narcissism, a death of your goodness, a death of your fears, a death of your color evasion, a death of your self, righteousness, a death of all those tricks you play to convince yourself that you are fine that you are the good ones, the sophisticated ones, the non racist ones, the ones who truly care about justice in a world without oppression, hatred and racist violence. And I read that quote, but, you know, obviously it's at the very beginning of the chapter and I remember when I read this particular chapter like that stopped me kind of in my tracks of like the idea that, um, there is something in order to really do this work as a white person, you need to give something up, you need to lose something and it's not going to feel good. Right. That like being uncomfortable. So I wanted to just put that quote out there. Um, in case folks haven't, won't read the book or, or haven't picked it up. So, um, kind of reactions to this chapter, I'm gonna be honest, Ingrid, it reminded me of you like a and that's not in a bad way that is in a way in which you have shared your ideas and thoughts about the work that you do. But yeah, II I just, I saw your whole entire journey in this chapter. Um But you reading that quote at the beginning and I know that this chapter was to the white people. I believe that quote can be for anyone because I don't think, I think that me as a woman as an African American black woman, I feel as if some of these things don't, don't concern me like it is, it is to me, I'm the one who people are looking at as black blah, blah and I'm getting oppressed. However, I don't realize who I'm hurting as well. So I think that quote belongs to me because who am I not looking at or who am I looking less than to someone else or who am I feeling as if uh oh no, no, that's not me. I mean, I'm literally doing what that quote said that's not me. It, it, it is, it is. So that, that was my, my thought behind all of this. I can see where you say that. Um As far as they remind you of Ingrid. Um because as I was reading it too, there was one sentence that he wrote. Foster wrote regarding George Enc, he said that George Enc reminds us if we white people are going to commit ourselves to the struggle for racial justice and equality, we must first release ourselves from our attachment. And I thought about that with you Ingrid. Um I really did. So I agree with you Porsha. I wasn't really a fan of this chapter pretty much. Um But yeah, I can see where you made that-- attachment.-- It's interesting that you say that. Why, why weren't you a fan? I wasn't a fan of Chapter four neither. But um chapter two was my best. I, I love chapter two but I wasn't really a fan of this because I don't know, it just, I don't know, it's just there, his point of view and he's a white person. Correct. Correct. Yeah. So I, I don't know, I really just wasn't really unders I didn't really, I didn't like the chapter.-- I'll just say that I,-- I, I asked only because it's not that I wasn't a fan. This one pulled a lot of more emotion out of me. OK? Um And by that, it was the emotion of man we got so much work to do that's in which, and could be very, very depressing and concerning and it's just like Jesus, you know, and that's what I meant to, uh, learning the history and, and until we are able to learn the real history, we are not able to move forward at all.-- And-- I know you used the word we, but in this chapter, I'm not part of that. We, they got a lot of work to do. You know, that's my take on that. Um So I'm not owning that.-- So I just, I don't like the word.-- We, I get that. I get that and, and that's, and I'm a we person, y'all know I talked about my birds. Um And I'm all for the team. But um I feel like if, and you have every right to do and have the stance that you're having to shana. So I'm not saying that you have to be the, we I'm saying that sometimes I know we ask for a lot of the white community to do the work to figure it out. But we also know that there's unwritten rules too. So what don't, you know, if, if, if everything is written by white people about historical facts, which we know that are not accurate and we as part of the black community know what is and the way social media is now and the way the internet is now, how do, how does a white person go about researching and figuring it out and understanding it. I feel as if sometimes you gotta talk to people and if I have to be one of those people, that's cool. But I also know white community, Tashana, you may encounter people that are Tashana people who don't want to tell you or may have to feel more comfortable in having that conversation with you. Um I just feel like there's different levels. So that's why I put myself in the way. Like I am open to talk about it, but I am not the spokesperson for the black community. You still got more work to do. I so appreciate this because like Tashana, what you said, I think the thing about this chapter that struck me. So one of the arguments, one of the things fosse talks about is how white people who engage in de I work actually can end up based on his research contributing to anti behaviors like behaviors that are not productive because they believe they are the good ones. They are the ones that are doing the work. They are the ones that care. They are the ones that are the allies. They are the ones that are, you know, speaking up. They're the ones that are saying to the woman and that you know, that are standing up and being like you should not be saying sister soldier that way, that is not yours. And because they're willing to do that they feel like that is the sacrifice. That is the work when in fact, the work is different. And to, I think kind of conduct, maybe the thoughts together. I think there is a difference between as an ally between like shutting up and listening and being like Porsha. Tell me, tell me what I can do. Tell me, teach me, inform me, educate me. And I think there are one of the things that we talk about in this podcast is there is there is work to dismantle racism and white supremacy that white people have to do it is their work to do. It isn't the work for Tashana to tell like me, Tashana, tell me what you need in order for me to dismantle white supremacy. Like, well, would you like to roll back history? How about that? You know, I think, and figuring out how to do that and show up in a way that is authentic and honest and vulnerable and still participatory while still getting it wrong. And also I think one of the things I've been sensitive about that we've talked about is not centering your flipping journey. You know, like, hey guys, I mean, even having this podcast, hey guys here, I am white person on this podcast with my friends, Tashana and Porsha like, OK, good for you. Um That's not, that's not the work showing up and doing this podcast with you and having the gift of your time and you being vulnerable with me, that is a gift that is not me doing the work.-- Uh,-- I agree and, um, I agree with you Tashana too, reading this and knowing our social climate and what's going on in the Supreme Court. That's why this was a tough read for me because I'm like, there's, there's no way, like, I just don't know, like how many people I know it's a lot of people because this is in our educational systems. When you go, when you learn history, when you're watching the movies, uh Gone with the Wind, all of those things were made up history to make it look as if everything was great. And slaves love being slaves. White people love being masters to help the slaves and everything was lovely and then rosy when we start to erase that, you start to erase our background and then how we, how, how is this ever gonna get better if you refuse to act like this never happened. Point taken point. Taken. This goes back to one of our earlier podcasts when they start remaking these Black Panther movies and all of these movies that are stripping us away. I agree with that. I do think a commitment to like history and surfacing history is a value that the three of us share that I'm really glad we've gotten to explore on the podcast together with people. Um I hope that we can do more of it. I'm really interested in. Kind of, I appreciate the opportunity to um start with this book and I'm excited to carry it into our next conversations and to Shana, I think you're next um with I am not yelling. Can't wait.-- I've started it and-- I'm like, yeah, this was good. Again, this is a book that I'm definitely gonna put on my shelves, maybe. Um If we do this again, next summer, we can tackle some other chapters in this book because this was actually a good book.-- Now,-- that's a good idea. Actually, uh I had been in seeing this book, the author of this book created another book that said uh mixed races in higher education. So I think that would be a wonderful book we can talk about, but this was great. Thank you, Ingrid. Um Hey, I feel like we could talk about this all day and all night, but this was great. Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate it. And any final thoughts, Portia and Tashana before we-- wrap it up for our listeners,-- learn history, real history, right?-- Her story-- and do not try to look at it on tiktok or pick up a book. Go to the library. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Tiktok does give you some information. I had a wonderful lunch because it's tiktok but I saw. But other than that, no, get off of tiktok. Learn something for real. OK. Thanks ladies, thanks for listening to HRD. We would love to hear from you. Please send us thoughts you have on this episode, ideas for future episodes or feedback you have on anything you've heard so far to HD at acro.org. This episode was produced by doin thanks doin we'll see you next time.