I Am Not Yelling (Summer Book Club)

The summer book club continues with Elizabeth Leiba’s book, I Am Not Yelling: A Black Woman’s Guide to Navigating the Workplace. In this book, Leiba weaves her biography with other lived experiences to share how black women can find empowerment by embracing their truth and being their authentic selves. Tashana walks Portia and Ingrid through the book and draws off their personal experiences in academic and professional settings to explore the books’ topics, including microaggressions, imposter syndrome vs. imposter treatment, and code-switching.

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Hello Acro Community. Welcome to another episode of her on today's episode, Porsha Ingrid and I talked about Elizabeth Lebas book. I am not yelling a black woman's guide to navigating the workplace. We talked about what it's like to experience your entire education and professional spaces with people who don't look like you. The difference between impostor syndrome and imposter treatment, microaggressions and why so many people have something to say about our hair. We hope you enjoy the conversation. Let's get started. Welcome to another episode of her. Today. We are going to discuss the Book of Choice for the Month of July. I'm not yelling by Elizabeth Liia. I hope I spell, say her name right. I'll spell it. L Eib A is her last name. I'm Tisha Curtis.-- Porsha-- Lamar. I'm Ingrid Nuttle-- and I do want to talk about this book.-- Yes, I'm glad I absolutely love this book. Um Of course, I'm gonna let you Lady speak, but I just wanted to say that a lot of things that she talked about her experiences. I can totally relate. I can really relate to a lot of her experiences. Um There's about eight chapters in this book. Um the first chapter how it began. Chapter two, Finding Your Voice. Chapter three, impostor syndrome or impostor treatment. And I can't wait to talk about that. Chapter four, code switching and other exhausting behavior. Chapter five, also one of my favorites, Afro Locks twist and braids, the politics of natural hair. I am not my hair. Chapter six, I'm not yelling the psychological of microaggressions. Chapter seven, opening the door, mentorship, sponsorship and sisterhood, which we have discussed in the past on this podcast. Chapter eight, a seat at the table or building your own empire. So Ingrid, what did you think of the book? I um it was a really emotional read, I think just on a human level of understanding her journey from. So this book starts with her childhood and how she sort of came to be as a like young woman in the world and the environment that she grew up in where she was surrounded by a lot of people that look like her in her home community. Where was she from? Initially? I can't, I wanted to say Florida, but that's not right because she went to Florida. She grew up a little bit in London, right? England. But her parents are from Jamaica. But then she went, but then they moved to the United States when she was in like when she was eight or something like that, right? Um And in Florida, yes, one of the things that was really emotional was watching her journey from being like a young woman in a community of people that look like her where she felt really empowered to be herself. And she talked about how she was like a cut up and kind of, you know, she was a really bold person. She was really smart, she was really active, she felt like she could be her authentic self and that journey kind of connecting it to higher education specifically when she went to college. And the expectations. First of all, people looked different than her there, like she wasn't surrounded by as much community-- of familiar faces,-- right?-- And and told that you won't get the support-- and that was next, right? So she, it was the expectations. So even though she was a quote unquote adult when that happened, right? So like she had this whole experience through her youth of being really supported for being someone with a lot of energy and voice with her identity as a young black woman. How even at the age of 18, going to college, how quickly that shifted based on the expectations that were set for her within the context of higher education where it wasn't necessarily given that she would succeed. So she recounts that experience of sitting at orientation essentially and being told, look to your right, look to your left, the people next to you aren't going to be there and everybody's looking at each other. So people are looking at her and I think just grounding the book in that like the rest of the book in that experience, for me, it was kind of took my breath away because it's like she grew up with all of this self confidence and it was just like, boom, like that at the, in that context of higher education where she was expected to excel and perform at her highest level,-- she got knocked down a peg in terms of her confidence. Yeah.-- II I agree. That's the same um thought that I had, it was basically my thought, everything that you just said in like this small little thing just watching, just reading her flower, wil her, you know, like she young, ready to go flowers, beautiful. But then just watching it wilt a little bit as she navigated the world with the color of her skin. The only thing that I and this is, this is so little because this book was so great, but because of the title, I am not yelling, I just thought it was gonna be more corporate like, you know, stop looking at me as you know, this Yelling Woman and all stuff. So I was ready for that type of read, but it wasn't, it was a better read. But that was my only thing like dang it, my whole perception of what I thought this book was gonna be about is totally different. Well, I think it was still there because she was given a strategy. So she had to start from the ground to give us a better experience of how she got to being able to navigate in the corporate world or navigate in higher education. For me when you know, and I can remember at orientation, when they say look to your left, look to your right. And during that time, I was the person that wasn't there when the people next to me were looking because I dropped out for life reasons. I had a baby, et cetera, et cetera for life reasons that really touched me when she talked about about that. But what made it better for her? She was determined to be there. So it made her wanna push even harder to be smarter, you know, to just push harder because she was gonna, she was determined to be in that spot. Yeah. And I, but I do find it funny that her determination was frowned upon when her incident had happened. Um You know, like that same thing that she was raised in, in believing that that's how you should act. It kind of like the rug was kind of snatched out from under her. Like, oh nobody told me that there is exceptions to when I should act like this. And then I think that she started to see that as she navigated after the event that happened, that was when she was accused of stealing batteries. So, you know, because she took a stand up, I did not steal those batteries and I am not signing this paper which resulted in her being put in a holding, you know, at the police station. When my interpretation of it was like, when her mother came and got her, it was kind of like, well, why didn't you just sign the paper? You know, like kinda like not saying that this is what her mother told her verbatim. But it was II I interpreted as yes, I told you to be independent. Yes, I told you to stand for something. But in this instance, you should have just signed like that's how I felt like dang it like it's and, and then it starts to be a pattern like, oh shoot, maybe I can. But now I realize in this corporate and since I shouldn't be so verb, so loud, so passionate, that's cause that's how I felt like that's how life has been for me. Like sometimes your voice is ready and, and could be used, use all that independence. But you got to navigate how and when to use it, when we shouldn't have to. I was just gonna say, and I hear you Porsha but just think about how many people get arrested or get locked up and they are truly innocent. And why do I have to sign this paper when I know I didn't steal these batteries? Her receipt was in her book bag. She just couldn't find it at the time so I don't think she should have signed it. They, I mean, at the end she won the lawsuit but being a wo a black woman, how many times you go in a store and they follow you around how many times you're, you know, you wanna see this and then it's like, you know, like if I'm in a jewelry store and I say, oh I wanna see this and then next thing you know, like three people come just so this lady can show me this diamond ring. Like that is very uncomfortable. And why should I have to-- downplay what's going on by signing the paper?-- No. Yeah, I, I totally think she did the right thing, but it is the idea or the notion that is being introduced as, again, my interpretation of the other route may have been easier if I just not have said anything. And I just think that to me again, she was right in not signing it because she stood her ground. But it is just knowing like that, that's where you begin that um path of navigating. What's an exhausting thing of ok, well, should I speak up? Shouldn't I speak up? Should I speak up or shouldn't I speak up? Because now you're like, ok, speaking up could lead to this or not speaking up, could lead to this. That's, that's what I was trying to get to. Not, not, no, she was, she was absolutely right to stand her ground. I was thinking, well, it's kind of we, we went into talking about the incident, but I was thinking about what you said of those life changes and her journey. Um and those experiences that you had. One of the things I said to you as we were prepping for this was that I felt a lot of in reading the book. When you asked me what I thought about it, I felt a lot of affinity for some of her experiences. Like I too have experienced imposter syndrome. Um I like, I too have felt like my, maybe I can't be my authentic self because it is making other people uncomfortable who have the opportunity to support me in my professional journey. But what you said about college, like what she said about college and her college experience, I had the complete reverse experience of going to college. So I feel like go starting at a university. Um And my had an untraditional path to like being a full time student. It completely empowered me. It like, I feel like I was able to be my authentic self in higher education in a way that I couldn't be in my K 12 experience. Even though in my K 12 experience, I was definitely surrounded by people that look like me in terms of socio-economic status. That that wasn't my experience, right? So when I got to college, I had like the flip experience the total reverse experience where I felt like I looked around me and I felt so able to have a voice be myself, like um be the loud brash, whatever direct person that I am 30 whatever years later. And so I'm just reflecting now and it didn't hit me to Shana until you said like I was one of the people that looked around and I was one of the people that had experiences that took me out. It just struck me that gosh, I had the exact opposite experience that you had or even that she had in higher education. So like, what does that say about our colleges and universities for people? It's just hitting me now and it, it's interesting that you say that. So and this is the beauty of this podcast. Tashana has shared her experience being in college. Do you have Ingrid? My experience was I was in a predominantly white high school K through 12, all of that stuff and then went to a historically black college. So going there and I didn't hear the speech, but I had heard about the speech before attending and it was just like just seeing people who were of my same ethnic background was all that was empowering. So you didn't need, we didn't need a speech just, you know, just especially coming from where I come from just seeing like, oh my gosh, everyone like me is trying to elevate themselves. And that was empowering. So I, I just, I love all our different high-- higher ed experiences. Agreed,-- agreed, you know, there were a lot of, you know, I wrote all in my book. So there were a lot of quotes that she had in there. And for one, like she said, it is critical for black women to own our own narratives and to leverage them to articulate our backgrounds, knowledge and experience and this will lead to more opportunities, promotions or the ability to start a business. When I read that that is true because this also goes with the impostor syndrome versus imposter treatment for a very long time. I felt the impostor syndrome until after I read this chapter. It wasn't me, it was the people outside the treatment that I was receiving not having a voice at the table. Um being the only black woman at a table with a bunch of white men being the only. So the treatment I received kinda traumatized me to feel that I was not good enough. I was not smart enough. I did not know what I was doing. Although I held the title. Although I've had this experience under my belt for over 20 years, it wasn't me. So I no longer own that feeling of having Apostle syndrome. It was the Apostle treatment that I received. And then she also said, and if the respect is not being served, you need to leave the table. So when I received the imposter treatment. I left the table. You know, I need to go someplace or be someplace or make my own space where my voice, my opinion, my experience is accountable. It's, it is recognized and it is appreciated. Tashana. Can I ask you a follow up question about that? Because I, I know that you and you can feel free to not answer this if you want to because I know you've talked about leaving. And like we talked about this in our episode two with rock rock hall about like sometimes it's time to go if it's come up a lot. Did leaving ever make you feel like disappointed in yourself? Like you were you, you couldn't achieve what you wanted to achieve or did you feel like you were able to look at the situation at the time and be like, this isn't me? Because I think that's a thing that is a struggle is feeling like at least for me, I can only speak for myself and not necessarily in jobs, but in situations where I'm like, I'm supposed to dig in and I'm supposed to stay. And if I walk away from it, I'm a quitter that I think is a narrative that is intention with knowing when to leave. And I'm just curious about your experience when I made that decision to leave. One. Yes, it was because I wasn't, I felt I wasn't being treated fairly and two the region I was in was not conducive to where I really wanted to be. So it actually, you know, cause I would have, I was willing to stick it out. But then it's like, OK, if this is not working and I already don't like where I'm at, this is the perfect opportunity to leave and that's what happened. So in that situation you didn't feel like mm mm I'm quitting or I'm letting myself down. You're like, no, this is, is this isn't right like you knew it correct in that situation. I did not feel like a quitter. I just knew that this wasn't right. My spirit wasn't settled. So yes, it was time to go and I know what you're talking about though. But in those moments, I think feeling the feel of you let let yourself down or you haven't dug in is, is fine to feel. But then you have to allow yourself to feel or see what you're going into next because it may have been a better fit. It may have been a better purpose in your next role. And it, it, it goes back to that, you know, cliche of when one door closes, the other one opens, you know, so that type of thing, like it's not always a bad thing that you may have got let go or you quit or whatever, but it is sometimes hard to see the good in the next um opportunity um because you're so stuck on what you didn't do what you didn't complete or what had happened to you. Um when really it, it's probably for the better and sometimes we just don't, we either miss it or we don't take the time to actually see like, oh OK or understand and process or acknowledge the fact of no, this was a better spot for me to be in now. So to kind of tie that to the book and Elizabeth Lela's experiences, it's interesting, right? So she sits there and this happens, I mean, we're bringing up this example at the beginning towards the beginning of the book of being in college. But there's other situations that come up through the book where she doesn't feel supported and where she doesn't feel like she fits. It is interesting to me that the way that a system that isn't working well for people can frame it as you don't cut it, you aren't cutting it, you're quitting. So it is framed for her when she goes to college, look to your left, look to your right, you're not going to be here. And when they're saying that they're not saying and you're not going to be here because the institution has failed. You, you are not going to be here because the institution has failed to make you feel included. You are not going to be here because we will have let you down. It is a, it is like categorized as that failing is on you. And so here I am asking that question of Tashana because that is a narrative that I hold for sure. Like I feel like I have been trained to believe if I can't stick something out that there's something wrong with me. And as much as I try to would try to talk myself out of that, it's a really strong narrative. So I'm just sitting here thinking about what that's like and how empowering it can be to realize, no, there's something wrong. Maybe, maybe we need to look to ourselves um as opposed to looking to individuals. Yeah. And I would like to think that higher education today has evolved from that raggedy speech and also from the fact of the individuals seeking it out themselves, you know. Um And I, and I, I can, I can 100% admit that when I started working in higher education, I felt like, why are we holding these students hands? Why they can't figure it out? Like to me higher education was the rite of passage to adulthood because that's how you, you learn how to navigate life. But because that's how we went through it, that does not mean that was the right way. And I realized like it, it, it may not have been the right way or I may not have seen it wasn't the right way or I would have seen it wasn't the right way early enough if I had not gone to an H BC U because I had a H BC U that kind of helped me navigate those streets in Higher Ed, it helped. But if I had gone to a APW I in which you I'm just saying this with quotes around it are just a number and that help is not there to navigate those higher Ed streets. At that time, I would have been like, oh my God, this isn't for me, you know, whatever. But now I'm like that. I like to believe that we have gone away from that narrative and we are trying to better help all students navigate regardless of what your um what background or knowledge you're coming from. And I know we still have ways to work. I still, I know we still have ways to go. But I think we're doing AAA we're,-- we're evolving. I'll say-- that there's a quote in the book that she says, she says black students get the illusion of education without the critical components of quality education. The systematic approach to denying black students a quality education has resulted in inequities in high school graduation, college enrollment, graduation rates and degree attainment. I can agree with you. And I went to a PW I and I basically had to navigate myself and especially as an adult learner, it's even harder. So I get when transfer t talks about adult learners and transferring in, it's harder because you have nobody to really help you. Help you navigate, you give you a sheet of paper and say, well, these are the courses you need to take. These are the semesters you need to take them by and you need this grade to pass. And the only time you'll see the advisor is if my GPA falls below XYZ, then that's when they wanna call me and say, hey, how you doing? But you don't call me any other time or you don't reach out any other time. So I feel lost. I just feel like I was, I was out there navigating, navigating myself as a black student in the PW I school. Yeah, that's exactly it. And I, and, and that's why to me representation matters because even if we have a lot of students on these big campuses, right? So even if we don't have the opportunity to reach all of them, it would make me think like a a student would feel comfortable in going to someone that they feel are like them. So that's why, you know, we have to have that diverse pool within these uh departments. So that if no, I didn't talk to my advisor, I haven't talked to my advisor or now my advisors reaching out when technically it's kind of too late, but beforehand to get me on the straight and narrow. So, yeah, and I, you know, and with this book, I love the fact that she had the perspective of a higher education student. And a higher education, staff member, staff and faculty member.-- I thought that was,-- she's-- actually-- a professor. She's, you know, she's actually, that's one of one of her experiences. She's a professor. Um, let's talk about code switching for most. And she, this is, you know, her chapter on quote um switching. The first thing she says for most of my professional career, I have been performing code switching and other exhausting behaviors in white spaces. What has your experience been Porsche with code switching? Or have you experienced that? Oh, I 100% has experienced code switching. Um But I'll say my code switching started at a very young age because I went to a, a private school with mostly non people of color, white people. Like I just, it was uh so I, I learned, I learned that tactic very, very young and I can tell you in which I did when you spend a week at school, you're learning everything you're doing all the stuff you, you're acclimated to your environment and then you go home and you're hanging with your family on the weekends and you get that dreadful quote. Why you sound white? I didn't know that there was a thing to sound white, but apparently I was sounding white to my, my family, you know, and, and it wasn't my, my inner family because obviously my parents put me into the school, but it was the uh it was my like cousins just the kids, all of my age, you know, when we're talking, hanging out, I, I got that and then once I, I learned to navigate those, I learned to, to switch it on and off. Like, ok at school I'm gonna do here. And then when I'm with my family, I do here, then it flipped on me when I was a teenager being a lifeguard and, you know, started at this now and now I'm starting to become my own person. Like knowing things. I like knowing the things I like to do and, and sharing that and hanging out with the people who like, who have the same interests as me. And I came home and my mom was like, you too hood. Like why do you're sounding like this? Like, so it's just like goodness. So yes, we talk about it in the manner of work. But to, to be honest in my world, it was at home as well. Like I had to code switch at home too. So it was just like my goodness. I had Tupac, I'm Tupac over biggie, biggie fight me if you want to. I love them both. But I was Tupac had that cassette tape. I'm dating myself. Date yourself. Don't date me. Uh cause I'm 21. But um had, and I remember my mom, I remember I accidentally left it in the tape deck and my mom hid it like she took it from, she confiscated it and was like, you've changed and I was like, changed. How have I changed? I am still at this private school. Like what? And it was all because I guess she felt my mannerism was that of this sounds so comical when I say it because I literally still put on my private school skirt. So there was no way for me to bag or sag anything, anything that looked derogatory to the older generation when, when that type of hip hop came out, I just liked what he was saying and how he was able to say it. So it was just like I uh again, I go back to, I knew at a very young age to navigate those, those territories, current state, I still may do it because you just, I i it's so it's so embedded in you. But I really and truly believe that I would show more of my personality and my job more now than I did before Ingrid. Have you ever had to code switch? It's an interesting question I've been, I was thinking about that while Porsha was talking, I think it is fair to say that not in the same way that Elizabeth Leva talks about in the book or that Porsha talked about, right? Like there's not a, there's not like a part of my identity when I'm at home with my family or like that kind of an experience that I feel like I have to fully switch to another way of presenting with people that said there are nuances to that there. So a couple things, one I am from Minnesota, Minnesota and for sure, I know that when I am with certain people from, with my friends, I talk in much like a really strong Minnesota accent. Like I'm born and raised here. I have it. You all probably notice it. Maybe you noticed it and you don't tell me. I um, I'm pretty sensitive about it and I notice that when I'm doing it, I make an effort not to talk in a Minnesota accent. Pretty much all of the time at work. Um, because people make fun of you. Ah, like, it doesn't have any type of a, a class added to that because I'm like, more of like the movie Fargo. Like, I think the Coen Brothers movie Fargo. Really kind of did a number on that bus. It's right. So, I think it's just like it makes you sound so it's not quite class Porsche. It's intelligence. It, which I suppose is really. Yeah. Yeah. It's intelligence. I get it because I'm like, when I hear a New, a New York part I'm like, oh, yay, like,-- sometimes-- Tana, they sound amazing. Tashana sounds amazing. Yeah. Yeah. So, I'm so, I, I, and it, and I don't know if I've ever met someone who has been, like, I'm ashamed, not ashamed but try not to use that accent and, and it's so, you know why.-- I'm glad you. I'm glad-- you. There's just a midwest. I feel like there's a midwestern, a Minnesota or a midwestern sort of stereotype that comes with that accent. That is like lack of intelligence, something like that, that I've tried to do. I also, yeah, probably a lot with my voice. I'm kind of nasally. I make an effort to not talk nasally or to drop my voice. Even on this podcast. I like work to, to not talk all the way through my nose and my Minnesota accent. So like there probably that. But um Tashana, you said something to me once. I can't remember if we, if it was like offline or if we talked about it in a podcast. But just working long enough in higher education and like being around people and being like, I read a lot, I think I definitely use my words like I use all of my $10 words at work a lot. It's not something I consciously do. It is a state of comfort. It is like, so when you're talking about that portion, like the switching, I don't even know, I realize I'm doing it. But I think my state of being at work, I still think I can be my like goofball self, but I probably err more on the like intellectual side-- non nasally, non sounding like I'm in the movie Fargo per-- person, which maybe everybody super appreciates-- see what I did there see what I did there. That was just for-- you. I did, I did. Now what, but what about generally when someone's as close switch and I'm always thinking about, you know, being a black person in white spaces. But what about being a woman-- in male dominated spaces?-- Right. Yeah, I think that's, I think what I just said but I think that, like, using the, using the words dropping the voice, um, being, yeah, I think probably whatever it seems like that, which is super weird because if you are code switching, you're switching to something that you perceive as being acceptable and normative to other people. And what the heck is that? And what does that person look like? Whose identity you're switching to? But sometimes I am like forced and not forced, but sometimes it's like I have to code switch in order to fit in. Not that I wanna fit in. I don't care, but I want a paycheck at the end of the day. So it's like I'm darned if I do darned. If I don't, if I'm myself, then I'm yelling. If I switch up, then OK, maybe she'll, she fits in. So it's a little difficult, which is the segue to our microaggressions before you go into that segue. When you said fit in, I was, I had just recently watched something trying to find a better way to advertise jobs in a more uh to get diversity. Can diverse candidate pool I was so shocked but it made so much since when you say the words, we're looking for someone to fit to fit into our culture. That could be where you're like, you, you are, you are pushing away people when really it should be. We're looking for people who can bring some outside that we don't know about in our culture or you know, it was just like, oh yeah, I keep your culture. Yeah, we're supposed to fit into something. But no, you're supposed to be able to accept whatever I have to bring to the tape. And how can you fit in if you don't know what the culture is, if I'm trying to get into the organization and I do my, yes, I did my research but I'm reading does not give me the personal feel of what the culture is like, right? Which is why the culture should accept me, not me trying to fit to you all.-- So-- yeah, which is why when I get there now I'm code switching to fit into this culture because I need a paycheck. That's funny. But it happens. It does. So with the micro aggressive, this is and again, her quotes are absolutely phenomenal in this book. She said a couple of years ago when my organization went through a buy out there was one new member and I know we probably all experienced this one new member of a team that came into the institution and they would constantly interrupt her what areas that she was the expert in and they had no idea what they were talking about. I can say in the registrar's world, we have the academic people that always want something done or always want to do this but don't know how it would fit in. Not, not knowing if it's gonna fit into our system. Can we measure it? Can we pull data from it? Y'all just want it but you don't take the time to really understand the background of it and if it's possible to work. Um So when she talked about that, I really enjoy reading that chapter. The only thing that I have a issue with is sometimes I don't wanna be silent. You know, I'm in meetings sometimes and as people are talking, I'm writing because I'm gonna address this. You know, I don't want, I don't wanna be silent anymore. I want people to hear my words and not really the tone of my voice, but I want you to hear what I'm saying.-- That's why I think I'm a better writer than a speaker.-- But that's another thing to Shana just because you're not speaking does not mean that you don't have anything to say. And I think that a lot of people have so much hanging on the fact of speak out and no, it should be times in which or it should be opportunities for those who did not speak out to be able to speak in a different way. Meaning if writing is better than you, then you should not be you, you should be able to communicate through email about a previous meeting and not be told. Oh, well, I wish you had said that in the meeting. No, like I my, I, I still should be considered in whatever the decision is. My my opinion still matters. That is just I may not feel comfortable or that is just not my lane to speak in that manner like that at a, at a meeting, I still need to process, I still need to think this over, you know, and I know we, we have tons of meetings, we got meetings upon meetings, but sometimes people, it's, it's a lot of information overload in meetings. So when I can come back to my desk and I can process what was just said. Now, I can have an opinion and I would hope that my opinion is still accepted. I was gonna ask you, do you think it would be too late at that point? Who? But who, why, why does it have to be a fast thinker to be a leader? Like, you know what I mean? Like, why, why can't I be a leader and still have to mull over some things and then make a decision. That's, that's the kind of culture that I wanna be in or I said something late. Oh, ok. You know what, let's let's think about that. That, that works too. I, I don't know, I don't know how it would be unless you give me the, the interpretation that the decision has to be made right now. Then give me some, some information before the meeting so that I can look over and, and, and think about what I need to say or what I would like to share within the meeting. I was gonna say even in the context of the book though, like that example that Tashana brought up in that case, she was talking, she was speaking, she was sharing and no one was listening anyway and people were talking over and I think that's like the double edged sword. So it isn't even, it's like, yes, I do think that um a lot of workplace cultures reward people who think by talking particularly when they use words that everybody and tones and things that everybody's comfortable with$10 words, those $10 words and give you 50. But then you're darned if you do because in that situation, it's like, well, she knew what she was talking about, but because of the circumstances and the people that she's at the table with those microaggressions come out that instead of actually dealing with the content that she's saying are more about gaining control and pole position. And I think that's, that's like one of those dynamics that I will say, like, hold myself accountable. I know I have engaged in. I'm 100 per, like, I'm 100% positive. I have been in situations where I've been in meetings where I have felt, I've been quiet and I felt that there's a time where I need to, like, get my two cents out, even if my contribution is not necessarily pushing the thing forward because like, I absolutely need my voice to be heard. So, you know, or I perceive that. So I think it's like those dynamics. I think as much as thinking about what we can do to change it or what I could do to change it. Some of it is like shutting up, like, I think for myself, it is like knowing when to shut up, but then also calling out that behavior when you see it and, and we do that even with each other here on the podcast sometimes. But in meetings being like, actually, can you hold on? I think so and so was still talking or I want to finish. I, I can only listen to one person talk at a time. Can you like, hold that? Because I think they were going there and being more direct about that and creating spaces for people to have the floor is little things that can maybe change those expectations of how we show up to each other. I agree. That is so true. Um I am not my hair. I like that topic. I wanna talk about in Ingrid. Interesting. Have you, which you have straight, beautiful hair. Unlike I have locks. Porsche has braids. Have you ever had any experiences with hair looks and things like that? Yes, definitely. So, um, not again, not the same. So I've never had anyone want to touch my hair. I've never had anyone come and like act like my hair is their property that I can think of. But I had this conversation even this morning with someone. I have a very long hair and it's a unique color. It's just not particularly common. And so that naturally draws it just like draws attention. And so yes, I get lots of, I have gotten lots of comments in the workplace and it's a weird thing because sometimes it makes, sometimes it doesn't bother me at all. It depends on who's saying it and what the context is that sometimes it's just like, sometimes it depends on the gender. Sometimes it depends on the circumstance of what someone says and what someone looks like, I suppose. I don't know. I kind of wrestle with that but yeah, I definitely had my hair, my glasses and my shoes. But sometimes like, again, it doesn't, it doesn't always bother me, but sometimes it makes me feel massively uncomfortable and, and, and I'm saying this because I'm one too. But what about your height? I get a thing a lot about my height and my weight. I get that a lot.-- I have-- been called in the workplace, a tall drink of water. So have I,-- so have I,-- what does that even mean? Like I get it, but at the same time we need water to drink, but rather it be a hot ball, a shot glass of water or a tall glass. Like either one is quenching the thirst. Like why? Like I just don't understand that. A short, a short energy drink, it's still water and it, oh my goodness, sorry. I just, there's something that I full on went there, we went there. I am kind of tired of this topic of I've always, and, and this was a code switch. I've always had my hair. Uh my hair was straightened in a life, meaning um it was chemically relaxed from the tight coils that I have currently and when I went to my natural state, meaning how it grows out of my scalp. I, when I would interview, I would make sure my hair was either at the straightest point back in a ponytail and or I just straightened it. Um And soon as I got the job, then I let loose like, oh y'all about to get a new Porsche every week because that's how I roll. I always change my hairstyle up. Um But uh I just, I've never vibed with the way in the manner I wear my hair or my clothes. Why? That has to dictate my knowledge of what I know in this professional world. I've always felt like you've got people, I don't care how bad we talk about social media and how some people may not like it. But these are billion dollar companies headed by someone who wore a sweatshirt. So you can't tell me that we can't do our jobs. Like why, what I gotta do my job and worry about the skirt that I'm wearing that can be forming cause I feel like I'm thick but that, that, I mean, I just, I these are things that why, why like why does this have anything to do with the job that I do on a daily? That's, that's my two steps. Have you ladies ever been asked to tone it down? No, but you get those microaggression comments like, oh look at your hair. It's changed or? Oh that's an interesting color stuff like that. Um And, and I'll, I'll add to all that with clothing and hair nails. I'm a big nail person. Shana has her long nails and every time I'm with her, I'm like in love with them. But I'm and I'm all, I don't stop with colors. I don't, I don't care because this is my nails again. If I can type and I can't help that you can't type with the long nails. That's not my problem, but I'm still getting my email out. Thank you. You know, so I just, all those things should have not, you didn't interview me on those. You did not interview me on any of those aspects. None of those came up in the job description must have short nails, short hair and be short. No. So why is that something when I get into here, you you, you make a side comment about or are you like, oh your hair? Is that your real hair girl? You know, that's not my real hair. My hair was short last week. It's long this week that there's not a pill out there that will make that happen. It's a weave. I completely agree with you. Um Do you think the reason why people say something about it is because there is like, but I don't know what's going on there. Like there's some sort of possession over women's appearance in general. You know, like I know I'm rambling but I don't know any, I guess I can think of people who are identified as male who have had comments made about the way that they look when they dress a certain way. But when it comes to people's like hair, nails, bodies height, their personal things, I just, I wonder what's going on there with um, like presenting as a female that is like different that carries over into the workplace. I think it goes back to the culture that we never knew was in the first place and who, who represents this culture and it's the males, sometimes it's, it's male dominant that represents so whatever is acceptable to them or that that culture has made acceptable-- is what the unwritten rule is-- the dude in a sweatshirt, Mr Rogers. I love Mr Rogers. I really do but basic.-- Oh my. No, you did not just call Mr Rogers basic-- with outfit. Oh To Shana, you need to take us someplace. Uh Mr Rogers was everything. However, how many times we gonna put this? Yes. How many times we gonna put this sweatshirt on? You don't got another one. Where is the glitter in your sweatshirt?-- Not sweat? Sweat glitter is super-- bad for the environment. Poor job. And you gotta remember that was like 20 years ago. Glitter wasn't-- a-- thing But those are those ideals that have gone through time and not have elevated and then when someone comes in with that red VCU sweater that's bedazzled, then people go, wait a minute, hold on. What are you doing? Why would you do that? Why is it a question? It shouldn't take anything away from my job and what I can do, I may have a strong opinion. So, so sorry about that. Sorry, not, sorry. I lied. I'm not, sorry,-- I love-- you, honey. Exactly. How about, let's, let's what about a seat at the table ladies? Do you think in 2023 that we will get a fair shot? I'm always hold out for hope. I really am. II I hope but I also know that I know that whatever we get is from generations past, I worked hard for it and whatever we're working hard for is not for us. It will be for generations to come. I think that there has been a lot of progress and we talked about this before of like seats opening up and having representation. But question for me is, I think there are more seats at the table, but I do wonder about staying for the whole meal. Um If I could extend that metaphor a little bit more. Um Because I, I think that I see um it's that like helping people stay, like what does it take to stay and feel included and feel welcome because Elizabeth Leva, even this book, she, she got seats at different opportunities like she had opportunities, but it is cultivating an environment when some where someone is going to continue to sit there and be present. That's the thing I,-- where I think the work is and what I wonder about-- greed and um you know, I'm gonna bring my own chair. I'm gonna make me a seat at the table. So I'm scoot over because I'm coming and I think that's what we have to do. Even if I pick up my chair and decide I don't want to be there no more. Like both are fine and both can exist. I can, I, I always think of that. Um Men In Black movie. When Will Smith is taking the FBI test and he's, he's trying to, he's trying to take this test in this little egg shaped little oval thing and everybody's struggling, struggling and he decides to pull up the table and it just makes this noise and I'm like, that's me pulling my seat up to the table. Like I like, I'm making all this noise, but I don't have a problem in making that same noise when I wanna exit as well.-- So-- that's right. I agree. And then you, you know, I also wanna say whether I bring my chair or take it with me or if I leave it so my sister can sit in it. And when I say my sister, I'm not saying my sister, but so my next person can sit in it. My sisterhood can sit in that seat. Um But we need to make our voices heard. We have very knowledgeable information to share. We know what we're talking about. If we don't know what we're talking about, we research, seek out allies and say, hey, Ingrid, how do you do such and such, you know, to better ourselves so our voices can be heard so we can have a seat at the table. Um Yeah. And I mean, just overall, this book was really an eye opener for me. It actually gave me some relief. Um Some grace for myself again with the whole, when we talk about the imposter treatment, I felt better. I don't no longer blame myself for being a runner. It was where I was at, you know, and I'm, I'm happy now. I can honestly say I'm happy. So I appreciate Elizabeth in this book because I really enjoyed it. My dog, I had almost had to have a fight with my dog because he started chewing on it.-- And I'm like, no, you didn't, not my book.-- So I, I love that you picked this book to Shana. And thank you. Um And I, I if, if she's listening, thank you. Thank you to the author because we tagged her and she reposted these tweet with no, uh I don't do Twitter. She reposted these uh message posts on, on linkedin so that I felt like we were superstars. You can't tell me anything but also to just hear you Tashan to say like this book kind of freed you from those negative thoughts you had. And that to me is what the goal is. And I am so happy that has that happened for you through this book. Thanks for picking in Tashana. Yep. So until the next one, next month, Porsha, what's your um mm right within by MDA Hart? And I think it will be a good closure to our series because we have had some good, deep uncomfortable discussions and I feel like this is, this book gives us a moment to go. All right, if we can't fix it with the world around us, how can we fix it? Within ourselves and move on. So I'm excited for that. Me too. Thanks for listening to HRD. We would love to hear from you. Please send us thoughts you have on this episode. Ideas for future episodes or feedback you have on anything you've heard so far to HD at acro.org. This episode was produced by Doin, thanks doin we'll see you next time.