Right Within (Summer Book Club)

The ladies wrap up the summer book club series in the nick of time with Minda Harts book, Right Within: How to Heal from Racial Trauma in the Workplace. In this episode, the ladies get vulnerable discussing previous workplace experiences and the opportunities for healing explored in Harts’ work. Harts provides tangible suggestions for dealing with workplace trauma, including what can be done in the workplace to create equitable and inclusive spaces.

Transcript

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Hi Acro Community. Welcome to another episode of HD in today's episode, Tashana Porsche and I wrap up our summer book club series with MDA Hart's book, right? Within How To Heal from racial trauma in the workplace. In this conversation, we get very vulnerable, discussing some previous workplace experiences we've had and the opportunities for healing. We found when we read this book, we put a lot out there into this episode and we're really happy to share it all with you in the world. So when you take a moment plug in and let's get started. Welcome to the Herd podcast. I'm Porsha Lamar,-- I'm Tashana-- Curtis and I'm Ingrid Nuttle.-- We are-- going to be discussing, this is the last book in our summer reading um that we did that I thought was very successful and I loved it. Um But we are going to be talking about uh Linda Hart's book called Right Within How To heal from racial trauma in the workplace. I suggested this book and I can give you a little reason why I, I've read both of her books. She has another book out there that is called,-- this is the Memo-- the-- memo.-- You. Right. Thank you. Cause that's my favorite book. That was my favorite book because it just opened a lot for me. But seeing the trend of books that we read this summer, I thought it started off having a perspective of everyone with in Ingrid's book. And then I thought it honed in on uh Tahana's POV with uh her book, uh Black Woman's God. I'm not yelling. I am not yelling. I felt that while I was because at that time, I was in, I was in the middle of reading this book, I felt like closure or some sort of attempt of closure needed to happen within ourselves, but just within our summary. So I chose right within to just figure out how to, to go on that road of, you know, having closure and, and moving forward or just getting your mind right from trauma. So this is why I chose the book. What did you ladies think? Well, I could say I actually enjoyed this book and I agree with you the order that we put these books in, even though we didn't think about it, it worked out because after reading Elizabeth's book, this book was like, wow, this is how I actually, this is how I can actually get over it or start, you know, it gave me the tools to how to move forward. This is what this book did. And you know, like with Elizabeth book, I was able to identify different situations and put a title and a name on it. But Melinda actually showed me how to overcome it. Yeah. And just because I want uh I will be tagging her. It is MDA Hart Hearts. There's an s so I do know I, I, we may confuse that here in this, in this uh podcast, but please do not count it against us. We are, we apologize in advance,-- but go ahead,-- Ingrid. No, I agree on the order. So um one of the things I didn't talk about when we did last month's book club was like, there were a lot of things that Elizabeth Leva talked about and experience this feeling she had that as like a human being. I was like, I can relate to those feelings, but I had to at the same time, be really, really aware that I could not relate to the experiences. Um Like, I have not experienced racialized trauma in the workplace. I yet because of my identity, I know that I have contributed even if it's passively to like the circumstances that have created that experience for others. And so then when we got to this book, I was kind of holding that experience like, OK, you are finding affinity with like the feelings and some of the like self doubt and that like imposter syndrome, you're finding that, but the impact that it's having on you and your career and um and like what it's like to show up to work any day is not the same and kind of hold that. And then in reading this book to what you were just saying to Shanna where she starts talking about action, then I was thinking about, OK, so how do I if I believe that this is true and I believe that this is happening and I need to do something about it. What can I do? Because her advice, who she is talking to her audience is black women and like it, it's not me. So I I appreciated being able to be like, OK, if these are the things that need to happen, what does it look like for me as a coconspirator to, to do something and to show up in a way that is like a authentic but be like not centering whiteness like that, that I think is the and if I had like all of the answers, I think I would share them. But I think it starts with that self awareness of like just because you read a book and you're like, I can relate to what she's feelings, you cannot relate, like not being able to relate to the experiences yet assuming accountability for changing the environment where those experiences are allowed to happen. I just want to throw in that. She did say her book is For all women and she even said white women. So I I mean, I understand what you're saying but just, you know, in the book's defense is for all women. She did say that before we started even recording port and I were talking about this and she said the same thing too. I think maybe this is my own like way of holding myself accountable though for not, not centering myself. Because let me give you an example in reading this book when she's talking about, she talks about some really, really explicit um situations where she was targeted as a woman of color in like both like pretty big ways. And then also in microaggressions, talking about the way that her nail color looked, right? Talking about when she talks about not having a credit card and that like perception that that created about her. Oh this like poor young black woman doesn't have a credit card. I read that and I think to myself, I have never seen that happen before in the workplace. And it is a quick slide if you don't stop to be like, and therefore that has never happened in a workplace. I have been a part of that is very extreme. And I think in the who this is for. It's that holding that moment before you slide into boy, that sounds like something else that's happening over there in places where in the work just stop and be like um maybe this is actually happening where I am. Um And so the extent to which her book is for everyone I guess it did. It help me think of like make that stop before getting to, this is something that's happening to other people and be like, how is this happening in places where I have worked and, and work right now? I think that if whoever is reading this after they hear this podcast and if you are a white person or a white woman, I think that having the space to, to not say what you just said, meaning of not going, oh, I've never seen that. So that's never happened. But also having a space where you can be like, oh goodness, like I have been a victim of some of these issues in the workplace. And I know I feel like it may be hard, but I feel like you and all the other women out there could really, you know, heal from, from this. So iii I understand where you're coming from. But uh and that, and that's, and you have to read the book in two different spaces when I didn't have to read it in two different spaces. I just was like, yes girl, this is, you're right. This is it. But I feel like there is still a space for you to heal with your gender trauma, you know. So I wanted to talk a little bit about the white woman tears in my experience. I have seen this where I've even somebody has even came to me and said, oh, well, I think you took it out of context. Well, no, I took it the way they said it is when it got to that point, when that person came to me is because the way I respond, the person sent me an email basically telling me to do something. And I sent the email back said you do it. And that's what I wrote. So they must have shared it with whomever. And that person came to me and said, well, oh, well, you must uh you, you misunderstood what they said. I disagree. You put it in writing, I read it. There's no misunderstanding and you do it. So the whole white woman tears is like and to me, leadership management sometimes pinned that on colleagues. Um to maybe and again, this is just me speaking my theory and not even my theory, but just me speaking um to pin it on the colleagues that basically say may the strong survive and do I have to survive or I'm just gonna get my pen and I'm leaving. You know, so and 00 and speaking of leaving, I love that MDA Hart has said that when she didn't feel like she fit in, she left and she didn't feel any disregard, she didn't feel like she was a failure. It just wasn't her time. And I know we talked about that at our last podcast. Yes. But I, I think I do think that she did address the fact that she felt like a failure at first. Like why is there like, maybe this is something that I did wrong. Like I have failed at trying to stay at this job. And I think that's what this book is all about. She went through the steps to be like, wait a minute. That that wasn't me. I and me and me just didn't fit into their environment. So I had to remove myself. So, and I thought that was good because I'm gonna be honest with you, all this book made me uns surface something that happened in a previous, at a previous institution that um made me go. Wait, wait, it was never me. It was never me. And it, and, and now I did not have the opportunity to leave. I got let go. So and, and being let go is even worse of a, a position because you really feel like you have failed and you like, what did I do when I know I'm not this person? I know I'm a good employee. I know I'm able to do the job. How was it that I was let go? And no one told me no one even gave me the, the heads up or the, you know, the warning, the all these different things that should have happened and why the reason why I was let go was for something. So minute they assumed that I was on my phone all day. We were teaching in front of students and I was checking the time.-- Oh, that breaks my heart.-- But I left that place thinking I have like, just I have failed and I know I'm not this person. I know I'm not this person but reading her book from the beginning to everything, especially in chapter two, addressing the pain. It was, it made me think and I don't want to go there. But I was like, it, it had to have been racial because I was the only black person on the team. I was the only person who was actually doing a lot. We worked very well together, but there was a separation between my supervisor and the rest of us. Um e even physical separation because they were on a whole another floor. So if I had a question, naturally, I wouldn't go to my supervisor, I would just go to my teammates. It was just a lot of things that I was just like, why would I be everyone else? Stay, everyone else stay but me. But that wasn't my first go to thought of it has to be racial because I just, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm a naive person. I'm gonna tell you that right now. I just live in that world of everything is unicorns and rainbows when and you have to like, really be obvious to me it's for me to get it and I did not get it until I read her book and I was just like, oh my goodness. So this was a lot to me. First of all, I am, I mean my me saying, I'm so sorry, it doesn't matter but that it, like it, I said that's hard. Like it's absolutely heartbreaking to me, particularly having so many like knowing so many teachers and what it is that they put into the work that they do um with the resources that they have. So and just knowing who you are as a person and your incredible work ethic, I wanted to ask you and then like, maybe um to Shana, like you too, when she talks about healing and like healing from that trauma, what were some of your takeaways for how you, once you realized that that was something that you'd experience, what was some of the thoughts that went through your mind in terms of your own healing that you either have done or want to pursue? Um I, I think just going through this book and, and I, I honestly gonna have to read it again so that I can't actually really do the work because um I was doing the work in my head while driving, you know, audible, my favorite way to read. Um And I, I wasn't able to fully engage, I'm not, but the, the, the notion that that's what this was hit hard and it did make me like, stop, stop audible and just start to think, just start to think and and then actually think like, oh my gosh, this whole time I have been trying to reach this level of success to come back to this person who I have n I have not seen since I left that place to just prove them wrong. Like this hypothetical situation was going to be, I'm gonna see this person out and be like, huh see I am a good employee. Look what look, you know, but that's not, that's not the case. And I think MDA mentioned that like you're, you are not really going to have an opportunity to ever really go see what you missed out on, see what you, you know, everything that you may do may help the next person, but it's not necessarily gonna help you. So I had to think about that. Um There were a lot of things that hit home when it was oh when she was talking about looking to your coworkers looking to hr for that help like, but we were besties at work like I did, you saw me working but then when the time comes, no one speaks up on your behalf, no one speaks up and matter of fact, not only did no one speak up when I left and was blessed enough to have another situation that came about, you know, was working again. I got an email to ask me about some work they were doing there. Can you help us figure out how you did this, this, this and that. So I'm confused. Either I wasn't doing the work or was I doing the work because now you're, you're asking me to help you figure out how I was doing the work that I got let go from.-- So-- did you help them though? I did, I did, I, I understand what you mean because that happened to me too. I left the institution and they hit me up and asked me for all of this. It took a day or so because I was going like, should I send it? Should I not send it? Should I send it? But I eventually sent it because that's who I am. But did I wanna send it? Probably not because, but I understand what you're saying.-- Yeah, because-- I'm like, where was that email? When I was, when did anybody say, why would you do that? She was a great worker like the where was the allyship? And it wasn't there? So I almost question the word allyship. Is there a such thing? Would someone put their neck out there for you? But when you say allyship, is it because, ok, let's say I'm new and I hear you, I wanna support you but I'm afraid to lose my job. So maybe that's why I'm not speaking up.-- No,-- 100%. I think that is absolutely the case. Now, that wasn't the case in my situation. However, I don't care how long you've had on the job. It, it takes a lot, it takes a lot of strength to be able to put your neck out there for someone else, you know. Um, and not think that you won't get pulled in on it as well, but it messes with your mind when you don't get it. I can tell you that because you, you feel like this, these are the people who were closest to me and saw me do my job day to day and then to get pulled and get let go again. Hypothetical story in my mind. I wanted everybody to be like, you know what and flip over desk tables and throw papers in the air and be like you were wrong, you know, but that's not gonna happen. And this book helped me realize that it's not gonna happen and not only that it's not gonna happen. How can you move forward in your life in your career to not have that baggage to the next job? Bag lady? Exactly. This is why I love MDA. This is why I love MDA. Because if you all read this book, you will hear all the lyrics, the music references, the movie references and that's how I speak. So I love it. I see where you got the Beyonce thing from because she is Beyonce's twin too and she's not hold on now. I like Linda. But as far as we gonna say, well, let's see you the triplets but yes, I mean, essentially it is bags, it's bags that we don't realize we are carrying from one job to the next. So that next job that may be a perfect fit, they don't even get to see that with you because you've got baggage. So you are now taking your best qualities and tucking them in your bag because you feel like you know what, I had those qualities up at the last job, they had it with it. So let me not show those cards at this one. So now this job like it is just it can and it can be a crazy cycle because you are not giving your your real professional self. I'll say that because-- it's hard to come your Athen, your be authentic self in a job-- to Shana. And in addition to leaving which we talked about like, what is some of the strategies you have used for healing that you might be comfortable sharing?-- Um-- I'm still learning how to heal this book. Actually, he is gonna help me a little more to heal. But Ingrid, to be honest, did I heal? You know, I still think about it. I don't let that take over where my space where I'm at now, but there are triggers, you know. Um for example, I, you know, in my recent place being in a meeting and you hear certain things and you're like, OK, am I in the twilight zone? Like am I going back down that same hole that I just thought I pulled myself out of. So I'm probably still healing, still trying to identify what that really looks like. I'm not going to Yes, I probably have baggage. I'm not gonna weigh it. It's not gonna weigh my shoulders down. And eventually those bags, those bags are gonna get thrown away. But yeah, I don't, again, I'm still trying to identify the healing part. Do I need to see a therapist? Is nothing wrong with that? Because as we know which prior to this reading the book, we know that that is like a stigma in the black community um going to see a therapist, but it's OK. You know, it's really OK. So, but if we keep having summer readings like this, I can get there quicker. I like how you mentioned though that you are still trying to figure out what healing means to you because that's what this book was about. It was not trying to throw, how you should heal, it was throwing or it was informing you the different ways you could heal and ultimately finding the best way for you to heal. And that, that to me was, was really good. Um Was there anything that you had Ingrid that, that stood out to you as far as being able to heal? Yes. And I, well, I think I'm gonna, I'll say a couple things one when you said Porsha like, what was I expecting someone to like flip the desk and they had to toss the papers and be like, no, I like to imagine a w I want to imagine a world where that does happen. Like, I, I do actually think that that is maybe not the same physical action but like this, that is the sort of action that co-conspirators need to take is like sacrificing, putting themselves in position of being like that is, that is not ok in a, in a way that is uncomfortable for everybody other than the person who is being harmed. Like I really do think and I think that that is actually part of the healing that needs to be done for um for me, I guess I can only say for me, like, I think I feel better and healed when I feel like I am changing the circumstances in a situation so that everybody can find their joy and it is, it becomes really uncomfortable to when you realize like that you were working in a place or existing in a world or whatever where people can't thrive like that makes me not feel good. Um And so, so I think that's at least part of it for me in terms of the other healing um in terms of like kind of personal experiences, she said something which I like, I know I've heard kind of things like this before, but there was some way that she put it about how when you judge yourself based on what other people think of you, you're giving over like the definition of everything to them. So people might think you're so, that's all fine and dandy when people are like, you're not getting it out of the park, you're great. You're, you know, you're everything. But if you define, even when you define your success based on what other people think of you, when you give yourself over that completely, you are also giving over the power to someone else to define you in ways that hurt you. And so I think that like the healing for me, one of the things I took away from the book is like, what is it? What do I believe? Like, what do I think? What do I, who am I like? There's just some sort of like, who am I without how people react to me? I don't know about you guys, but I've been working since I was 13 years old. My identity is super defined by work. And so pulling that apart from those like very, very early days of work and being like, how can I define myself as a person who has like value and can contribute? I like to think I'm a good partner and a good mother and all the like, all those different things. But what makes me who I am? Um I think that's some of the healing to do for, for me is kind of in, in that understanding that, which I will say and I was saying to Porsche before we started, I've really processed differently since we've been developing our relationship with each other because of how safe and vulnerable it feels to be in conversation with you all about these things, even though we're putting it out, you know, it's just some recorded form for people to listen to it. It really has been a gift to do that work-- with you all publicly-- and I can agree with that. Um Yeah, this is a, I don't know if I recommend this type of healing for everyone but to put it all out there on a podcast. But this has been a form of healing. If I'm, if I'm honest, now I wanna go back to the, to the subject matter, Tashana that you were talking about how, um when we know we are being gas lighted or, or, or something racially discriminated and happened to us, but no one hears us and, and, and the perpetrator becomes the victim. I thought that was interesting about how, you know, going back to your email. Oh, well, they didn't mean it like that or, oh, you misunderstood them. Why, why I've always thought like, why did, why are I, I just find that so interesting, like we've got to instantly forgive the person that did this to us because they didn't mean it or they don't know any better or they've been here for a long time. It's so many statements that you can say that have been excuses that the workplace has used for the actual victim-- to have to accept.-- I think that is because the system is functioning as designed. And I think that is part of her, that is part of the point of this book. Like the reason that happens is because that is what a lot of environments, that's exactly the way that they have been designed to function. And so when you bring someone into that environment who like, it's almost like if you were to think about being onboarded, like, imagine what you, what your experience would be like. If someone in their onboarding of you into a new environment was like, here's the deal. Porsha people are going to say things to you that are going to cut you to the, your core, it's going to be some of it might be really explicit, some of it might be like a microaggression. Some of it's going to be about your identity, some of it might make you feel uncomfortable. Um We just want you to deal with that because we don't want to deal with it because that's a lot of work and we've just got so much other work to do. Like what if you were to think about no one that I know would say that they want to onboard people into an environment like that. But I think once you realize that if you were to be explicit about it that way, then you have to do something about it. And I think that's where decision making breaks down because people are like, well, what do you do about that? And I think it's like, well, you, you start by acknowledging you very much, start by acknowledging that that's not OK. But then you have to move to action, which is where I think this book, she offers very tangible solutions actually for what to do. Sorry. And to piggyback on what you're saying, Ingrid, she actually recommends the restoration agreements, that's what she wanted to or you know, she recommends that for organization. And she basically says the racial restoration agreements are meant to rebuild trust inside the workplace as it relates to unchecked racial aggressions. And additionally, these agreements will help censor those who have been racially harmed. Leaders and managers must incorporate some workplace norms that benefit everyone, not just the dominant majority. So she does talk about that. And actually, that's kind of a good idea was, was that chapter two, Tashana in your notes there-- for-- chapter 44 with chapter two. Yes. Ok. So I am gonna do like I'm gonna recommend to anybody. I, I do think everybody listening to the podcast who is interested in actually taking action should read this book. Chapter two in particular, outlines very, very specific things that can be done. And she says one thing at the beginning of that as she's listing out the Restoration agreement, she talks about equity advocate, she talks about different things. But she also says if you are working in a place that does not have representation, you have another problem like, and, and that is something and she doesn't talk specifically about like, and if that is your problem, this is like these are all of the things that you do. I, I think all of the suggestion she gives should be done anyway. But I do think that the like looking around where you are and seeing if there's rep representation or not is something that is sort of like the step one, right?-- Um That she-- calls out. Yeah, because I don't, I think that um this is not to drag anyone in hr um but sometimes, especially when it comes to racial issues, you don't feel like you can go to anybody in the workplace, including HR and in um in mda's book, she had a situation in which she found out that hr was really close with her supervisor. So everything that she felt like she was saying to hr in confidentiality or to, to, to help fix it was going right to her supervisor who had the issue. So, so where do, where does a person go? And I think having that and taking those pledges or whatever would help restart the whole system and at least assist in it. But you're right, Ingrid, if you don't have anyone that looks like you, this might not be the place. And, and it's, it's easy to say that and we understand that everybody can't just leave, which is why she also has made the books to give you tools to deal with it. But yeah, it's hard to make that change. It really is, especially when you want the title, especially when you know that you can do this job and make the best of it.-- And-- we did a separate episode on hr practices and earlier episode, what Simone talked about in there was like embedding the i into your processes that was about hiring. But this book kind of picks that up too. I mean, her point is like just normalize it, like embed restoration, make a restoration agreement, a normal thing that you do make equity advocates a normal thing that you do. It's not an initiative that you like spin up. It's like operations. It's, it's like the same way you do operations, like operationalize it, which I think is an important mind shift that it is the work, right? It's not a lens through which you're not like putting on your D I glasses. This is someone else's metaphor, not mine and then taking them off. You're getting D I LASIK, right? Oh Shirt D I Lacy. That is not my quote. I need to find the original quote.-- I definitely cannot take credit for it. Well,-- they need to make a T shirt merch. So is there anything else that stood out to you all in this book? I know Tashana listeners,-- Tashana, she will write down it all.-- Exactly. I just was going to throw out, it's OK to make good trouble. I was just going to throw that out there.-- We don't have to be silent.-- Right? If you feel like you're in a position that you can, but it goes back out to can you, are you ok with putting your neck out there? Um, she did discuss someone who put their neck out. There was let go and has no qualms about it and is continuing to fight the fight. And I don't know if those people are rare. I don't know where I am right now in my life to do so, but I can 100% appreciate those people that are like wrong is wrong, period and I'm gonna fight for it-- and, and don't just ask me to buy your girl scout cookies.-- Yeah. Uh, what was, what? There was a one where, um, because there was an incident in, she was saying, and they were just having, I guess a lunch as coworkers and, and one coworker had some racial things to say and she was looking around like there's no one, no one else hear this and then when it was brought up, she said they were like, oh again, they didn't mean it like that or oh, I didn't take it that way, you know, it, it is a lot and I, and I can't be honest and say that sometimes without knowing it, it can be. Um, and it, it goes back to the word code switching and code switching can be learned at a very young age as I shared with you, I feel like I've learned at least when I had to be like maybe in the first grade of how to code switch or even what it was. But um without it being a word, but when you're on at your workplace and then you leave and you're a whole another person that it, it is a lot, it is a lot. So the, the, the better I could be comfortable in my workplace. I wanna say you would get the better my pro productivity will be because I don't have to deal with that other mess. Um I think Elizabeth Liba said it as well. She was questioning who she even was because she became so much of the workplace of trying to put on a face that it was hard and it is hard. It is very hard. That's kind of what I was talking about when we were talking about healing is like you taking the time. I do, I keep a work journal. I don't know if I've told you all this. Have I told you all this? Like, I have a um a specific journal that I use to reflect like where my head is at with work and sometimes it's as simple as what do I need to do on the day. But sometimes it's like to process these same kinds of things. And um I have, I would offer that as like a tip to people because I think unintentionally that has helped me get some clarity on who I am in the workplace and in my home life and who I want to be. But I think that healing, it's just, I don't know, it's super complicated to find a way to be who you are and be safe. And I think that it is easier because of the circumstances of like oppression, right? Like because of white supremacy, it's easier for me and making it not easier for me by not accepting what is happening to other people around me and figuring out how to deal with that is a part of my own healing. Does that make sense? Like I think it is hard, it is difficult to, it is difficult to overstate how harmful harm done to other people is to everybody. What's bad for you is bad for me. Just different. I like the way you worded that though, like at the end of the day, it is harmful for everyone,-- but we're not there thinking that yet. Will-- we ever get there? You know, I was in a class with a guy who um so he identified as male and he was like, you know, what I hate. I'm always asked to kill the spiders. I don't like them. I don't like him. I don't want to be around spiders. I am afraid of spiders. But in my, I think he was talking about specifically like in his home. But he was also saying in the workplace he's like, it's assumed I work with, he's like, I work with mostly women and I have a daughter and a wife and there's like an assumption that I am going to be the one to kill spiders. And I feel like it's because I'm a man and I wish that I wouldn't be asked to kill spiders. And that really struck me when he said that to me about like it, it's a little right. It feels little like in the context of what we are reading about in these books, it feels a little. But that to me was like this tiny little example of how he didn't feel like he could be afraid of spiders because he was a man. And it's like those little things as they crop up. And you realize how whatever that normative thing is is bad for people. The more we can talk about that, the more we can surface that, the more, you know, that person can be like, can someone else deal with the spider situation? Um I don't know, the more the maybe the closer we can get-- to change, you know,-- that is such a good point that you just made because I'm sitting here thinking like we asked them to move the furniture, we asked them to take out the garbage, we asked them to do this just because they're a man. And is that right? Yeah. But-- yeah, like, but yeah, that's just, that's, wow.-- I do it too. Like I do it, I do it with my, you know, partner all the time. Those and what is that? Like, what does that flipping mean? Why, why am I doing that? The society? It's a norm. It's a norm, which is why it was natural for some people within this, this state of de I, and oh my God, I want to do right to go right to the people who, you know, they felt like, hey, teach me, do this. And you were like, I, no, I don't want to like, why is it upon me? Um, either let the spider stay or kill it yourself? Like that's, that's what it, it boils down to. Um, but yeah, I don't that, I think you, you might have ended the show with that one with, with the spiders. Yeah. Well, ok. So maybe to, to leave with some, if, or to move on to some sort of a, like, what are you gonna, what are you gonna do next? We've read, we've read three books, drilling kind of down into this.-- What are some things that you all are committed to doing?-- I'm committed to me. I'm committed to me and I'm committed to, to doing the work and to uh finding the best version of me at home, the best, best version of me at work and, and, and without having all the baggage that is there with it, I'm, I'm, I'm committed to letting it go finding it first because apparently I didn't know I had it, but I was dragging it around and then shifting through it and, and letting it go, agreed, I piggyback on everything Porsha just said. And for me to add, what does healing look like for Tashana? You know, what does that look like for me and trying to acquire the tools to start that journey? I think that going back to chapter two and the like actionable items, I think that is something I want to look into more and maybe like try to understand examples of plays. It might be like that might be a great future podcast episode. Is there anyone like who has done this, who we could talk to? And how is that manifested itself in the workplace? What did that look like? So I think that is part of it and yeah, I think to echo what you said about committing to me maybe really specifically, I think letting go of the idea that there is like, I, I have never considered myself a perfectionist at all nor have I considered myself to have high standards. I think we've talked about that. Like, to me, they're just like the, it's just like the way to be. And I think it's recognizing more of a commitment to, to not that to like embracing imperfection, embracing how I'm different, em, embracing my identity in ways where I'm not always trying to get better at something, including even some of the things we're talking about at this po you know, on this podcast. I think I've been pretty clear that I believe there's work to be done. I want to both believe that that is true. And also really, really recognize that I am an imperfect being along the way. I'm glad you said that and I want every bit of that for you. But unfortunately, I don't think I can let that go because I don't because, and here's, here's the reason why I know I'm not perfect. However, I have to be to just be able to compete and that is what I have been, has been pressed upon me and told and I wish I can let it go. But I don't think, I don't think I can yet. I don't think I have to be everything everybody wants me to be so that I can just even be looked at for an opportunity. But does that contribute to baggage? Because now you are trying to hold up to what other people want-- it 100% does. So-- then the healing cycle is never ending. Yep. And, and MDA said that men said this is not a quick one shot thing. She said this will be an ongoing process and we're here for it and it's a choice and when you're ready to make the choice, then you're ready. I thought that she gave a lot of grace for people to like start when you're ready to start. And she talked about her own journey that way. So like Porsha, I hear you and to be clear, it's not a light switch for me. It's a vision statement of where I would like to say, yes, it is. Everybody has a starting point. So this was great. You guys let us know if you all think that we should do more summer readings or just reading in general, maybe, you know that there's a book out there that maybe we can discuss. This doesn't necessarily have to be summer, but I like the idea of summer reading. So, I mean, summer goes all the way into-- October.-- Oh, well, tell the weather that here. Ok, tell the weather that in Ohio-- and tell my academic calendar that now-- too. Yeah, it's fair, I suppose academic calendar wise, summer ends uh in August. Yeah, it ends in August. That's fair. Oh, I appreciate you both.-- I know my people once-- again, great conversation ladies and II I, this, this is healing. I do wanna read the memo um because she made reference to the memo and I'm like, ok, I gotta read it just so I can understand what she's talking about. Memo is good and what opened my eyes to the memo was the fact that she was saying that she was a, I wanna say business and marketing or was so it was the c suite that she was trying to obtain, that was her goal. But she saw that, you know, all the other professional developments lean on everything else. She seemed catered toward white women and it did not give the caveat pala of the black woman trying to achieve that. So that's where the memo came about because not only do we have the women issues, we've also have the black women issues in trying to get to that higher, higher level of things. So yes, it is a wonderful read. Mende Hearts. You are excellent. Keep writing, ma'am. Thanks for picking and thanks for doing this. You guys, thanks for listening to HRD. We would love to hear from you. Please send us thoughts you have on this episode, ideas for future episodes or feedback you have on anything you've heard so far to HD at acro.org. This episode was produced by doin thanks, doin we'll see you next time.