Let Your Students Lead: Technology and DEI

Portia kicks off this episode’s conversation with Joel Nelson, Program Manager for Learner Success and Innovation in the Office of Digital Learning at The Ohio State University. A wide range of topics arose, including accessibility, AI, data and DEI, and the pros and cons of efficiency. Joel concluded with a strong recommendation to “let your students lead” when looking for direction and strategy for advancing DEI overall. 

Transcript

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Hi Acro Community. Welcome to another episode of HD Pia kicks off today's conversation on DE I and Technology with Joel Nelson, program manager for Learner Success and Innovation in the Office of Digital Learning at the Ohio State University. Joel has managed statewide K 12 engagement programming and supported key digital success initiatives and he has a background working in the community college environment as well. We talked about accessibility, artificial intelligence data and DE I and the pros and cons of efficiency. Any one of these topics could fill an entire episode. But today, we're covering the gamut of intersections between diversity, equity and inclusion and technology. So without further ado, let's get started. Hi, Acro Community. Welcome to another episode of her. I'm Porsha Lamar. I'm Ingrid Nuttle and I'm Tashana Curtis. And I would like to welcome Joel to the podcast today. Welcome Joel. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity to speak with you all. Great. I'm so excited to have you. So let me give you a little background. I uh well, OK, so I had switched to a new department and the new department had a great um, a group that was set up in teams just for people of color. I'll say, I'm not sure what it was actually called right now because I can't remember however met and shared with, um, that group of people, our podcast and Joel was, uh, one of the ones that was kind enough to listen to the podcast and make suggestions on topics that we can have. And then I hit him with the, you know, how you always get this, ok, since you suggested you wanna be on the show, you know, and talk about it. So it was great. Um We did, I had never met Joel on campus as you know, Ohio State is very large. Um but we uh had a couple of conversations and he just, I mean, he said all my favorite things from Cincinnati, it's just you can't get any better than that, which is where I'm from as well. So we like this, we real close already without having and then I actually did go on camera so there and meet him. So it was awesome. So I'm so happy that you're here and just give our audience just a little elevator speech about yourself. Sure. Uh So Joel Nelson, I am a uh program manager for um digital learning and uh at Ohio State, the primary focus is uh student success and innovation. Um I've been in higher education, uh about 17 years now, been in Ohio State. Um a little over four of those years been primarily uh the majority of my time in higher education at Columbus State Community College here in uh Columbus, Ohio um at, at Columbus State range of areas that I was involved in from construction of technologies and distance learning and eventually moving over to dual credit uh and uh engagement work there and then eventually into our community education and workforce development uh spaces. My focus uh has been to kind of combine all of that work into looking at opportunities where education, workforce development, career and academic pathways um and technology kind of all align for creating new uh exciting uh more diversified uh pathways for more diverse people. And um and so I'm a, I'm a product of that. I've uh I've seen it work. Uh I know that it is uh uh there's just more to do in that space I've seen, I've, I've even been a part of the process for my mother who has received her bachelor's degree in her in her sixties. This is what I look to do and, and do it wherever I can, whether it's part of my job or in the community. That is great. I love that. So how have you seen throughout your career? Uh technology, the de I market and all of that evolve? So, II I started in the kind of the technology space in, in higher education at Columbus State. Um I was working in, in our instructional technologies and distance learning area and it, it's going on, you know, in higher education departments change names uh a lot. So I was going on on over a number of um of iterations over time. But um in the early years, my role was as a um multimedia developer and in those early years, when I say early years, it's like tw uh 2003,-- fourish-- early years in technology, early years. Yes. And particularly in the, the trying to figure out how it would work for education. Uh I think that's the biggest piece. Um We were, you know, that it was primarily media driven. How do you record a professor's lectures and make sure that someone can access it uh at a different time than the regular LEC regularly scheduled lecture time. Are there other media tech um things that you can bring in that can enhance a particular course. So, uh I remember uh and this is, you know, hopefully it doesn't make anybody a little bit squeamish. But I remember, you know, we had a Cadaver lab at Columbus State. And so for many of our health care programs, we would go in and record a video um in the Cadaver lab with, with professors or take, you know, photography and, and then utilize um you know, it flash at the time was the primary interactive technology. So those are kind of the things that we did and try to do our best to make it accessible online and I say do our best because really it was just you put it online and then said whoever can access it, this is for you. If you can't access it, then you know, sorry, you know, sorry for you and uh take it, take a class on campus. The evolution has I, I think come along that uh first of all, technology itself has become more ubiquitous, more people have access to technology, more people understand it has become a bigger part of people's lives and they understand that it's a way for them to access and gain knowledge. And then I think for uh for higher education, the utilization of technology has transformed from becoming a an add on uh kind of uh you know, this is the thing that we do if we figure it out, great, if not, so be it to to be a value added solution to say, oh well, there's gonna be people who want to have courses, distance, you know, or have technology enhanced courses. Um So now it's, it's, it's an integral part of the educational experience here at Ohio State. We've had digital kind of first initiatives where every student has a device. Um and then that's just been continued on in other formats and then the the utilization by the the faculty to kind of enhance their courses and and it become, you know, necessary for the completion of a course and successful completion of the course. I think it's just all how it's been, been, been transformed over time. I have actually, I have two questions and the first question while we're on this topic, I know from 2003 till now, you know, technology changes every day. How are you today tackling the ad a requirements for technology ie color fonts and things like that. And then to remember, I have another question, but I'll let you answer that one first. Yes, I appreciate that. Um So, uh so I would say that I'm not in the media creation space anymore, but I've um 88 compliancy. I don't even like using the word compliancy is just because it's just like, hey, how do, what are the, the boxes that need to be checked and then how do we check them? I think there's more to it and there's more that we should do as um as, as both um content creators um as education institutions and just in general just being good human beings. Um in terms of making sure that more people have access to what we produce and the knowledge that, you know, we, we make available to the world. The, the ad a component is a challenging but uh important topic that we, that requires more investment. So I know at Ohio State, um the responsibility is that any new technology or any new uh media based initiative has to go through uh uh a check a number of checklists to determine and make sure that it is uh it is accessible uh to anyone who has any type of uh impairment or disability. And so uh that is a way that the university itself is, is doing that. Um But I think on the front end, it has to be uh how do we make sure that this is a accessible on the front end. And so understanding uh the the necessary the particular technologies, uh whether it be captioning technology or uh making sure that color standardization is, is uh is is across the board and you're not using, you know, very high red and deep blues and all those kind of things like all those things have to be on the front end and have to be kind of developed into the, the uh content creation. And then at the same time making sure also any type of tool or um um technology solution has built in um um accessibility features that hopefully that answers your question. It does. And the reason why I ask is because I actually do our website here. I'm not, I'm not great. I just know how to add the information. Um But I do remember having to take some type of training to understand the different color contrast, the font. So that's why I asked that. But uh my other question is early on, you talked about the divers of the diverse um pathways. Can you talk a little more about that exactly. Like, what is that? What does it look like? What does it accomplish? Just give us a little because I've actually never heard that before. There's an opportunity for us as, as higher education um and higher education professionals to consider that not every student can or should move through the higher education um space um in the same way, uh they, they don't come into it the same way. Um And life experience and life challenges may also require them to adjust their path as they're going through it. So the assumption the um the kind of preconceived notions that uh hey undergraduate students come in as 18 year olds and they leave as 22 year olds and they, um you know, they spend it for years and they kind of, we have these, you know, degree uh pathways in this course uh list that they have to take and we give them the sequence, they take them on the sequence and then they progress along anybody that doesn't do it that way. Just should not cut out for college. Well, that's, that's out the window because we know that most students uh are not undergraduate students are not even in the 18 to 22 year old um demographic anymore. So how do we adjust what we offer? Uh How do we adjust how we offer it? How do we adjust uh where it's offered particularly as we talk, we talk about technology. So that there are multiple on and off ramps and I love the term pathways because it, it, it, to me it's just like being uh being in the car and having a gps on and then once you hit traffic or you hit, you know, hit, bump in the road or whatnot, um you can turn down a uh another street and it starts to recalculate and still get you to your definite uh destination and that's essentially life, right? And we should be looking to make sure that we are still being able to provide the highest quality educational experience for the ultimate goal, which is career opportunities for the students, no matter what traffic they hit or detour, they may have to take, I'd like to dig into that a little bit more. Joelle. You mentioned that your um mother graduated when she was in her sixties. I, I actually graduated from college the same year as my mother. Um when she had turned 50 we walked across the stage together. She had a very different path and I, I guess I'm interested in talking about so everybody moves through it differently. But when we, when we look at sort of the presence of higher education and the value proposition of higher education and how it's kind of communicated big picture, the focus on things like four year graduation, which is measured by uh you know, people coming in at a cohort, you know, in a certain cohort out of high school, like New, new admits that the measures of, of excellence if you will and I'm putting that in quote are still really built around that. So maybe I'm interested in your thoughts on how yet at the same time, we have seen this shift. Like I think there is so much more emphasis on upskilling and you know, finding new pathways for people to come in. So like what are your thoughts on maybe balancing those realities together? And what we say higher education is we're still kind of doing it in that way where we're talking about that value with one specific framework. While at the same time, we're creating these new pathways and try and saying that they have value. But we're, we're using measurements of that those different pathways as being like equal, getting like equal attention and equal merit to that sort of more traditional student um model. That's an interesting question and, and to, to be honest, the answer to that question in terms of where you're seeing those uh those opportunities receiving equal, equal space or equal measure within uh within higher education. This is just because I've spent a lot of uh oh, I'm gonna say it's not because I've spent such a great deal of my time in that uh in this space. But it's because I just, even since I've been here at uh at Ohio State, I've seen it grow. Uh I would say that it's at the community college level. If you, if you take a look at what, uh, what the community colleges are doing across just here in, in O in Ohio, the willingness and the ability to what market trends are telling us because ultimately, right, I mean, we have our student, student population are making decisions based on, you know, I go to Columbus State or Ohio State or Franklin or, um, Stanford Online. Right? Or whatever it may be. I'm making those decisions based on what's gonna make me more marketable as I go out into the to, to the world and, and, and become an, an employee or I'm currently an employee and I wanna make myself more marketable as I try to climb the ladder and so on and so forth. So the um it's a market driven decision for the student and I think um for higher education institutions, there's a market, market driven decisions that need to be made there in terms of being flexible and, and working to kind of um align with what both, both ends of the spectrum are telling you, the employers are saying this is what we need and the students are saying this is how we want to get there, you know, college, university, whoever um you know, if I want to go, if I go through you to get to where I wanted to go, then you kind of have to align with my needs. So I see community colleges kind of being able to make that adjustment and pivot now, community colleges are small, they're agile, they pivot very well. Um And in a lot of cases they're not, they don't have the uh the historical uh kind of uh foundation, you know, heavy foundations that are our colleges and universities may have. So, you know, Ohio State is, you know, recently c celebrated 100 and 50 years. Columbus State just celebrated 16. So that's a big difference. And so there's some challenges in being able to make pivots in those certain situations. And there's a lot of other things that you're answering to and so on and so forth. But II, I think there's, there's efforts being made in colleges and un diversities. I think technology is a big part of that, right? Uh Because uh at, at the very least, what technology can help do is close, some gaps, bridge some, some kind of uh deficiencies if that makes sense. And so colleges and universities traditional, I would say, you know, quote unquote traditional colleges and universities uh do have ability a lot of times to make significant investments in there to be a, in, in technology, to be able to close. I think that um you, you, you hit the nail on the head when you said, um because I've always been thinking that these universities, they hold tight to that tradition, whatever the tradition may be and they feel as if they can't move away from it and, and, and evolve, but I, I believe that both can exist. Um I just don't know if they, if universities understand that. So I, I appreciate you saying that it was, it went right along with my thoughts um with that being said, where, where do you see technology and, and digital innovation and all that um going for or, or where do you see it connecting with de I initiatives that have happened? It's interesting because I, I don't, I don't know that I have seen it and I can't say that I've done a whole lot of deep, deep, deep looking into anything. There's some techno technological solution that somebody is implementing and it helps me to kind of speak the language of the folks that I'm working with, right? In, in terms of being in this technology based organization, I don't know that there is one, right? Hopefully, I believe they are working on something that is going to help move that along. Um Is there a solution? I don't know. I don't think so. Is it on the horizon? I really hope so. I believe there will. I mean, talking to makes me think like I wonder is that um one of the missing pieces sometimes when we um in admissions, you always hear a lot about enroll and roll and roll and then the flip side of that coin is oh retention, retention. We didn't keep the students enrolled and I feel like one of those key pieces is the technology is making sure there's an even playing field for everyone and making sure you educate them on how to use the technology. So there's a lot of uh pieces that go into that. Yeah, and, and um you know, I like uh what uh Tashana has talked about here in terms of data, right? So data and technology, um I mean, they're, they're synonymous, right? Um And the the ability to aggregate and generate solutions off of data that we have is where technology can be a um can kind of be a pillar or set up pillars for diversity, equity inclusion. But any and every bo well, I say from my understanding and what I've read and, and, and so on and so forth, do we have good diversity data? And there you go. No. And that's really where it boils down to, right? It's like, and again, it has to, the input has to be good in order to get great through our input, has to be great in order to get great output. Technology is what it is. It's a tool. And so you gotta have good data to go in to have something good come out. And I don't know that anyone can say that they have great diversity data. And so there you have the, the challenge that is so true. And when you say data, because I know we talked about that here on this podcast as far as um you know, trying to obtain data from the diverse population, especially with Acro is really hard because people don't identify, people don't take the time to put that in. Also with data as it relates to higher ed, I know we're going through a transition of cleaning up our data. Um but they have all of these new, I would, I'm gonna use the pronouns example, even with the CRM, we're banner school with the banner, we would love to add all of these different pronouns, but we are unable to one, it doesn't accept it. And two, we only report out certain information. So why collect all of this? I'm not gonna say invalid information but it's not being reported to like the Department of Ed because the Department of Ed, they only want the three choices, male, female and then other, they don't want all of the other different pronouns. So I kinda hear what you're saying when you say as far as the data is important and you get what you put in. Um I did want to talk about why you were talking um about the technology and dei I did post some things in the link in the chat that I found on linkedin and it says that the DE I tech enables the discoverability, enrichment and act ability of demographic data to promote the scaling of diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives. Pretty much basically what you just said Yeah. And, and so I think what we have for organizations, like the ones that we work at, the ones, you know, our universities and colleges that we currently uh kind of work for um that are represented here um and others to uh advocate for flexibility and adaptability of technology to take in the data and see and, and, and, and capture the data that is needed. And at the same time, all of the kind of the the the overseeing organizations that like you were talking about the Department of Ed and so on and so forth to also do that as well. Tashana posted for, for our listening for our listening audience to, to Shana posted for prefer FPA um in the chat. I, I really appreciate this conversation about data. I um this is a big part of my, my job and like career path. I wanna again unpack this a little bit because when you think about the collection of data, right? It, it, we're talking about pieces of identity, like we're talking about pieces of identity that reflect people's experiences and the way they walk through the world. If you ask me to pick my race, gender, identify my pronouns, um give you the band of my socio-economic, like I'm, I'm creating some picture of you of myself rather for you as a person who is also walking through the world with your own identity or a team that is uh gonna create some sort of a predictive analytics dashboard using data about identity and all of those people have their own experiences and assumptions. I guess I'm wondering um and that to me, like, I think that can be problematic because I think people come up with, right, these like mental shortcuts of what we need to look at race, gender class and then that's going to let us know something that's going on here. So I guess in, in this connection of like diversity, equity and inclusion, the competency to working with data, what have you found to be useful or good practice in terms of helping people who are working with data, educate themselves about like what they're actually looking at and seeing and the power of data and stories and identity above and beyond individual variables that are being strung together on a dashboard. Yeah, that, that's a great question. And again, I wouldn't consider myself to be an expert in that space because it's something that I'm also learning. So there's a, there's a uh an article that I have, I would say I have not read, but I started to look into the space of um explainable artificial intelligence. And so there's an article from the National Institute of Standards and Technology that I came across and I'm looking to at some point dig into very uh deeply um but uh essentially this, this article is, is, you know, as I've, I've read the, the, the kind of the synopsis of the article talks about artificial intelligence and saying, hey, listen, we, we need it. It's, it's an important techno technological advancement, but in order for us to really apply it in a, in a way that's gonna help out society and not be biased and, and so on and so forth. Um, people have to essentially trust it. It's a responsibility of those who are um creating and holders and keepers of the technology to make it trustworthy. What's the plain English version of CG BT? Right? What is, what is it actually doing? And not only explain it to me, uh uh you know, a and me being a education technology professional or whatnot, but explain it. So that like I said, my, my mom can understand it. My sister, my, my daughters can understand what is actually happening here and then whatever information and that I am feeding it whether directly or indirectly, right? That's the other component of data is that there's direct and indirect data that, that feeds these things. How is that being used? And so I, I think, you know, the the thing about data is that it's collected the the profiles that we're scared that people are building on us too late. You are, they already built them like that's, that's it.-- I mean,-- it's any social media platform you're on, it's over,-- they have it-- anytime you buy from Amazon or anytime you, you know, uh do a Google search or whatever. Like, I mean, anytime you, if you do a Google search and buy from Amazon and, and, and you know, order from, you know, uh order take out or not even take out. But you know, Uber eats or you get an Uber or what, like all of this is all connectedness, building a profile and then, you know, the technology aggregates those profiles to be able to say, how do we sell more stuff? I think that's the understanding that. But I think there's a, there's an understanding of the population that the population can have to say, is there a way for this to make things better for me in some form or fashion? I know you're in school. I'm also in school, I think Ingrid's in school too. And recently um I'm in information um technology course and I was just introduced to Tim Berners Lee, the guy that created the internet or something. Um And he basically said, I watched a ted video of his and he basically said the data is what we put into it. So my question to you is with A I and higher ed, especially with the jet, the the chat, whatever that is called. How is that going to affect the instruction? Um Because yeah, I watch youtube videos. I see these students writing whole papers using A I and I do know when I did my undergrad, they have a software where you upload your paper and it'll tell you how much was plagiarized and things like that. How do you think A I is going to affect the instruction of-- whatever curriculum that is out there?-- I mean, technology moves so quickly. Right. And that's really part of the challenge. I, I think a, I, how does it affect the delivery of instruction and, and students don't do some things that they're not supposed to and, and so on and so forth um to be continued is probably the answer, right? Um It's not new, right? It's been around for 5, 10 years in, in kind of the the versions that we are seeing. It's just new in terms of public access, right? That's the new part A I essentially is like, hey, the feeding of data into a technology so source and then having it make a decision or kind of like some human brain level function and then spit out a a res a result or a solution. That's kind of my plain English explanation of what A I is. It's kind of, you know, allowing technology to create do kind of a human level brain activity with data that you input, that's been happening for years and years and years. It's gotten smarter because we're, it's more data available and, and using, you know, the technology itself, processing power so on and so forth, allows for more, you know, uh data to be received and you know, um more intricate decision making processes to be done by the technology itself. So with that being said, um what does that do for education, instruction and so on and so forth? I think there's a lot of possibilities in terms of adapting and um refocusing education. I think the biggest thing um that it can do in the positive realm is allowed for personal personalization of the educational experiment. And then for in the negative realm, I think there's, there's um there are the challenges of not integrity and utilization both on. It's not just student level integrity, it's by institutions and corporations and so on and so forth. That will ultimately determine whether it ends up being a, you know, a viable technology for, for us in, in education. So I think it's a viable technology. I think if you use it for personalizing education experience, then that's gonna be wonderful. Of course, again, it always goes back to access and availability and affordability for, for me. OK. I um I keep on wanting to like poke a little bit deeper at some of the things that you're saying, Joel and one of the things you had said earlier um was about when you were kind of doing your looking at to uh at what, what must be or what might have been going on in terms of like technology, making a difference with advancing diversity, equity inclusion. It particularly at the time in which you were looking at, you said that someone's got it. Like someone has, has got to have figured out some efficiencies and I guess I wanted to dig into that a little bit more and understand. Do you feel like in your experience, technology as a means of creating efficiencies is a value proposition? Do you think that efficiency, like how do you see efficiency being tied to um equity? And I'll give you like, just a little background of why I'm asking. I feel like I have personally observed efficiency like kind of like the 8020 rule, right? Like if we get it right for eight, we'll get it right for 80% of the people and we'll deal with the 20%. Some other way. I have found that that gets pro can get problematic when you're thinking of your population of who that 80% might or might not be. And so I sometimes get a little concerned. I love process and I love um I love to reduce oil. I work in like that's my jam but I get a little bit hesitant when I hear the people talking about things in the sake of efficiency because I do feel like sometimes that can actually run over people. So I'm wondering if you can talk about that, make a, make a case to efficiency. For me, maybe I think there is a value proposition in the utilization of technology for the sake of efficiency. And that being a part of the kind of the de I, you know, I always say Deij because that's what we kind of came up with. Uh And, and, and II, I don't ever wanna lose the, the, the, the justice component uh of things because that's, that's very important. Um So, um for, for technology to kind of help create efic uh efficiencies and diversity, equity, inclusion and justice, I think is a value proposition. Um The question is how, and I think that 8020 rule piece that you, you know, talked about is like, how is it helping the 8020? And is it, is the technology being implemented or created in a way to only serve the 80 or is it like, hey, the 81st with an eye for the 20 right? I think, I think those are, are two different things, right? It's like sometimes you have to like, again, we're, we're in higher education. Are you I you implement technology to serve the students you currently have, but you also have to have an eye on the students that are coming. So that's the way that I'm thinking about it in terms of like, you know, is it is it efficiency, you know, uh for, for that sake, right. And then again, I always go back to, you know, democratization and access. At some point, the conversation also has to go back to who's in charge who's doing the creating if it's always the same people that everybody looks like each other and comes from the same backgrounds and so on and so forth. It's, it's not going to, we're not going to have that conversation ever about the, the 20% or the 18% or whoever. Right. Unless at some point it's mandated and that's usually going back to the earlier in the conversation about ad a compliancy. Right. I mean, ad a compliancy. Everyone needs to have access to these things that we are seeing is very important and, you know, can help spread knowledge and so on and so forth. But unfortunately, the people that were in charge and creating and doing or whatever then view things through that lens because they weren't a part of that community. And so they just kept doing stuff and kept doing it, kept creating and so on and so forth. And then so now that the government had to step in and say, oh no, you have to kind of make sure things are accessible and yeah, this is, this should be common sense either was it or it was just like, oh, well, you know, that's not of the 20%. So we don't really, you know, need to go that far or whatnot. And even if the government steps in it took 20 years before they actually had to put some teeth to it. Right. Then even after they put teeth through it, they still had it, it took individual entities to then put teeth to it and so on and so forth. So there's still some level of the technology implementation can create efficiencies, but then kind of human understanding and human decency still are part of the factor to kind of make it so that those efficiencies aren't separating or kind of segregating the audiences that, that technology can make impact. Uh But it's more so, you know, with a kind of horizon based view of we want to eventually get to everybody. Um I just think that that's part of it. And then I think that, like I said, the other thing is having um you know, diversity of perspectives and diversity of people and so on and so forth in the room as decisions are being made. Uh So OK, as we start to wind down this wonderful conversation, what uh do you have any advice for, for smaller schools that may feel like they don't have the, the budget to have all these technological advances that would help them in that uh realm of, of de I, whether it be um staff, faculty and staff or students. Um What is there? Is there small steps that they can take within their familiarity of technology? This kind of connects to what I was saying before in terms of having the, the right folks, diverse folks in the room with the first with diverse pers perspectives and so on and so forth. If you're a smaller college, university um or school or whatnot, technical school so on and so forth and, and you're looking to kind of keep on the cutting edge, weeding edge and, and making sure that you are, are not losing sight of, you know, certain portions of your student population and all those kind of things. Let your students leave, period. Ultimately, it's, it's a win win, particularly if you are, you can be resource strapped or, you know, too deficient or whatever students are by far the best resource that you have because who better to know what they want. They're more in tune than you know, about what is available and, and, and, and, and I'm gonna keep adding ends here, second ends. And they also don't come with the historical baggage that can stifle innovation, right? And so, um they wanna be involved, they will come up with unique solutions, they will consider, you know, themselves and others as part of the solution, um driven processes. There is nothing that can beat a, you know, exper experiential learning opportunity. You get all the book knowledge and the lectures and so on and so forth when I get to put that to practice and, you know, solve a problem or create a, you know, something new or so on and so forth, like that's the educational experience that's going to drive them into whatever it is that they want to do beyond the college experience. Um And it's going to get them there sooner and they're gonna be more and, and talk about efficiencies that, that is gonna be like an efficient pathway for them, right? Because now they get to, you know, hey, I, I learned something that I wanna do and I know about some stuff and all those kind of things and now I can move forward and it doesn't have to be in a, you know, technology based space but it can be project management or communications or whatever it is that are all part of these processes. We know to create solutions for uh audiences and, and, and in society. But at the same time, in talk, in terms of efficiency, they also can learn about what they don't like. And, and so, um that's what I, I would say is that let your, let your students be a part of the process. Um You know, who knows that I learned this from my daughter who's, who's 14 and, and just started high school, they wanna spend, you know, I wanna say that I have two daughters. So they wanna spend all of my money as a, as a parent, you know, but when it comes out to finding their own solutions, they know everything free in the history of the world, like they're like, uh and so they know how to be uh resourceful and they know about stuff we don't know about. I know technology and I've been involved and I'm in education and all those kind of things and I learn from my kids all the time. I love that to end this whole conversation. That, that you just, to me, you just, you just flip the university on his head and that is great. But can we, can we not just dovetail into a conversation about 14 year olds willingness to spend our money? Because I would like to have a whole podcast based on that and, and, and figuring out their own resources. My, my daughter 11. She asked mom, were you like, born at the end or close to the end of segregation? As mad as I wanted to be? I wanted to be. I was so livid. Like, how old do you think I am, ma'am? And I said, well, research it yourself. Figure it out. So she does. And she goes, well, you weren't that far off. But in my mind, I'm like, yes I was but in hers it's like, no, you weren't. So I was just like, so, and that, that just goes back to what you said they see the world a lot different than what we've seen it. So, I, I agree. They'll save us all. I always look at it from the perspective of what they were born after the things that we are like, oh, this just came up about in my lifetime and they're like, huh, like when it always like that, like that doesn't, this doesn't make any, my daughter is uh, 11. I have a, my youngest daughter is 11. She don't know a world that didn't include iphones. It, you know, and my oldest daughter, she was too young to even remember like, what, you know, what that, what that world was like, things that have changed our society in general. I mean, we just came through, you know, September 11th. Right. These are like, this is a, so that was a societal shift. We've been on planes and all those kind of things. And my kids, they, we were reading something, um, or talking about something that they had read and they didn't realize that there was a time that you just go in the airport and you have to go through the TS A and all of that kind of stuff and it's like, you know, they, they're like, what, why wouldn't it be, why would it have been different? And we're like, well, like, people used to just like, if you were dropping somebody off at the airport you can walk right all the way up to the air, to the, you know, give them a kiss before they get on the, on the plane. Like, you know, and I was like, they don't know any of those, those things. And so that perspective is, is, is, is it's unique and it's valuable. Um, because again, they don't have some of the historical baggage. Like we, we tend to be like, think some, think sometimes about how things once were and you know, and that can kind of weigh us down and keep us from moving this, you know, far forward as we need to. Um, I think kid, you know, kids, particularly those who have navigating this current space resource deficient. If they get to your college or university, they need to be a part of your solution because again, they got, they got their research deficient in 2022 23 whatever it is like, you know, ending after COVID, I mean, yeah, I mean, it, it, yeah, that's a different story.-- I-- think you helped us pick our podcast title. Let your students lead. Yeah. No, I think, I think that's it right? Like, or, or at least our snippet before we go into the official. Yeah, I thank you so much, Joel. Thank you so much Joel. Seriously. Yeah, I'd love to talk to you again about all this stuff. Yeah, I appreciate the opportunity and, and uh yeah, I appreciate it. Of course. Like I said, I, you know, I was just saying, hey, I think you should talk about that. She's like, oh, well, you should do it like you at you. Like I'll never suggest a thing again. Yeah, I look forward to any other opportunities going forward. Great conversation. So thank you very much. Thanks for listening to HRD. We would love to hear from you. Please send us thoughts you have on this episode. Ideas for future episodes or feedback. You have on anything you've heard so far to HD at acro.org. This episode was produced by doin thanks doin we'll see you next time.