Why Are So Many Queer People Neurodivergent? The Link Between LGBTQ+ Identity, Autism & ADHD

Welcome back to Let's Be Perfectly Queer Podcast, your go to LGBT Australian podcast for all things queer.

Have you ever noticed how many LGBTQ+ people also seem to be neurodivergent?

In this episode of Let's Be Perfectly Queer, Archie and Katie explore the growing research showing a significant overlap between queer identities and neurodivergence. From autism and ADHD to gender diversity, bisexuality, asexuality, and transgender identities, researchers are discovering connections that challenge traditional ideas about identity and what society considers "normal."

We unpack:

•  Why autistic people are more likely to identify as LGBTQ+
•  The connection between ADHD, gender diversity, and sexuality
• What the latest research says about being "neuroqueer"
• The Double Minority Effect and its impact on mental health
• Personal experiences of being queer and neurodivergent
• Why support, understanding, and community matter more than ever

While researchers are still exploring why this overlap exists, one thing is clear: nobody should have to hide who they are to fit into society's expectations.

Whether you're queer, neurodivergent, both, or simply curious, this episode offers insight, lived experience, and an important conversation about identity, belonging, and acceptance.

🎧 Listen now to learn about the overlap of neurodiversity and queerness... And until next time, stay perfectly queer!

Trigger Warning: Discussion of mental health, suicidality, discrimination, and healthcare experiences.

If you have found anything we have spoken about in this episode difficult or triggering, you can reach out to the following services:

Phone:

• Lifeline is available 24/7 – 13 11 14
• Beyondblue is available 24/7 - 1300 224 636
• Crisis Care Helpline is available 24/7 – 1800 199 008
• Kids Helpline is available 24/7 – 1800 55 1800
• RUAH Community Services is available 24/7 - 13 78 24

Online:

• Head to health online chat  - headtohealth.gov.au
• RUAH Community Services - ruah.org.au or connect@ruah.org.au 

Links we found useful when researching for this episode:

• https://www.audhdpsychiatry.co.uk/queerness-and-neurodivergence/
• https://neurodivergentinsights.com/trans-autism/
• https://www.thetrevorproject.org/research-briefs/mental-health-among-autistic-lgbtq-youth-apr-2022
• https://learnfully.com/the-link-between-neurodiversity-and-the-lgbtqia-community
• https://sparkforautism.org/discover_article/autism-lgbtq-identity/
• https://nhsdorset.nhs.uk/neurodiversity/living/lgbtq/
• https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/eating-disorders-among-gender-expansive-and-neurodivergent-individuals/202506/the-link-between
• https://www.audhdpsychiatry.co.uk/queerness-and-neurodivergence/
• https://www.healthdirect.gov.au/attention-deficit-disorder-add-or-adhd

Transcript

Welcome to Let's Be Perfectly Queer. A queer podcast creating space to talk about all things queer. My name is Archie.

And I'm Katie. And we are your hosts. And I've forgotten the introduction.

Yeah, we had to do it like four times. But welcome back. And on today's episode, we're diving into a topic that we have been wanting to tackle for a while.

The link between being queer and being neurodivergent. I can't wait. We've been talking about this since the start, to be honest.

Yeah, it's because I've seen a lot of information about it. And I thought it was going to be really interesting to cover. But I always thought this was going to be a very, very big topic.

And it was. Yeah. I think I've been doing this on and off for months.

I think since the middle of last year. So it's been about a year since I've been looking at this topic. And I kept thinking, like, I'll start it.

It's too big. I get some things together. And then I was like, finally, I'm going to screw it.

Let's do it. I'm going to sit down. I'm going to finalize it.

And I think I really finalized over the last eight weeks. And still, there's so much I had to not include. Otherwise, I'd be doing a three-hour episode.

Well, it's a bit of a rabbit hole, isn't it? It's one of those things that you start looking and then you start finding more and more stuff about it. Yeah, that's exactly it. And, you know, once I finalized all my research, there was more things about it on all the social medias this week because algorithms.

But I was like, I can't keep looking. No. That's it.

I'm done. Yeah. So just in this episode, we'll be unpacking what research has found so far, what it doesn't yet understand, and why this overlap matters for identity, community, and mental health.

There is a quick trigger warning. There is some mention of suicidality in this episode. So please take care while listening.

So before I get into this episode, should I quickly define autism and ADHD? Yes. All right. Let's get into it.

Great place to start. Let's quickly look at autism. Autism is a lifelong neurodevelopmental difference.

It can affect communication, social interaction, sensory processing, routines, and the way someone experiences the world. But it looks different for every autistic person. And that's really important because autism isn't just one experience.

Autistic people have all different personalities, support needs, cognitive profiles, and ways of moving through the world. For a long time, autism was considered rare, but we now know it's much more common than people once thought, with around 1% to 2% of people being autistic. Wow.

Yeah. It's higher than there are transgender people. Only slightly lower than people who are redheaded.

And that doesn't necessarily mean autism is suddenly increasing. It mostly means we've gotten much better at recognizing and diagnosing it. There's also been a diagnosis gap.

Men have historically been diagnosed far more often than women. But researchers now believe many autistic women and gender diverse people were missed or misdiagnosed for years because autism can present differently in different people. As more people are being diagnosed later in life, especially during adolescence and adulthood, researchers are learning more about autistic experiences, but there's still a lack of large-scale research around autistic adults, particularly when it comes to relationships, sexuality, and identity.

And now let's look at ADHD. So ADHD is Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. It is a neurodevelopmental condition that impacts the brain's function and ability to self-regulate and control thoughts, speech, actions, and emotions.

It can show up as difficulty focusing, restlessness, impulsivity, hyperactivity, or becoming easily overwhelmed, but it looks very different from person to person. And that's important. ADHD isn't just one experience.

Back in the day, it was like the hyperactive kid who can't sit still. But it is very, with all the research, it has come to see that, you know, it is very different and there are different versions. And people with ADHD have a wide range of personalities, strengths, challenges, and support needs.

For a long time, ADHD was mostly associated with hyperactive boys. And I know growing up, that's what it was. And was it the same for you? Yeah, absolutely.

It wasn't deemed that really girls or female presenting individuals could be, could have ADHD. It was like, oh no, they're just a bit aloof. Yeah.

They're off the ferries, they're daydreaming and that kind of stuff. But we now know it's much more common and much more diverse than that. It's also frequently underdiagnosed, especially in girls, women, and gender diverse people, because it can present more as internal restlessness, daydreaming, or emotional overwhelm, rather than obvious hyperactivity.

As awareness has grown and more people are being diagnosed in adolescence and adulthood, we're learning more about how ADHD shows up in everyday life. But there's still ongoing research, especially around how ADHD affects relationships, identity, and emotional regulation. The symptoms of ADHD can be described in three ways.

Inattentive symptoms, a person could be easily distracted, but isn't hyperactive or impulsive. You know, mainly in their head, overthinking, overwhelmed, but all the thoughts are inside. That's kind of thing.

Yeah. More you. Hyperactive, impulsive symptoms.

A person has symptoms of impulsivity and hyperactivity. And then you've got combined, which is me. A person has a mixture of symptoms, including hyperactivity, inattention, and impulsivity.

Yeah. And around one in 20 people in Australia has ADHD. Wow.

One in 20. Yeah. It makes me think that because we're talking about neurodevelopmental disorders, is that how we say them? Or are they... Neurodevelopmental conditions.

Conditions. Thank you. It's kind of crazy to think that one in 20 Australians have this condition.

I would think that if one in 20 Australians have ADHD, then there's a high percentage that maybe there's a larger group of people who have autism that is undiagnosed if we're dealing with neurological conditions. Yeah. Before we dive in, let's take a quick moment to clarify a couple more terms.

So especially if this is your first time tuning into us, if you're new here, welcome. And if you've been listening for a while now, thank you so much for sticking with us. And welcome back.

So when I say queer, I'm talking about anyone whose sexual orientation or gender identity doesn't fit neatly into traditional binary or heteronormative boxes. That includes identities like lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, non-binary, asexual, pansexual, and so many more under the LGBTQ plus umbrella. And when I say neurodivergent, I'm referring to people whose brains process the world differently from what's considered neurotypical.

That can include autism, ADHD, dyslexia, and other neurodevelopmental differences. At their centre, both of these terms describe identities that exist outside of what society has historically labelled as normal. One is shaped by social expectation and the other by how our brains work.

Before I get into some research, if you had to guess, why do you think there is a link between being queer and neurodivergent? I would suggest it's because there aren't those boundaries of what is defined as normal. When you're queer, you already know that you're having to go beyond the boundaries. You're having to probably assess yourself to a lot greater level of being like, who am I? What does this mean? And having to unpack yourself a lot more.

I was going to say maybe you're a bit more emotionally intelligent, but no, definitely doesn't mean that. I've met a lot of queer people who may not be so much. We're all individuals and we can all have different levels of emotional intelligence, but I think that innate questioning does open more doors of, oh, what is normal? As well as having different ways of thinking, which may be interlinked with neurodiversity, where you already have those normalcy barriers reduced and you're like, look, normalcy is not me.

I think differently. I therefore am more open to more things in the world. Yeah, good guess.

I'm not going to tell you for right yet, but anyway. So let's start with what research actually tells us about the overlap between these experiences. Scientific research shows that neurodivergent people, particularly autistic people, are more likely to identify as LGBTQ plus over their neurotypical peers.

Research also shows that regardless of whether there is an autism diagnosis, transgender and diverse adults are more likely to report higher levels of autistic traits and sensory sensitivities compared to cisgender adults. Oh, interesting. And one major study published in 2021 by researchers at the University of Cambridge found that autistic individuals are eight times more likely to identify as LGBTQIA plus compared to non-autistic people.

Oh, wow. And three times more likely to identify as transgender. Geez.

The study also found that autistic men were 3.5 times more likely to identify as bisexual and autistic women were three times more likely to identify as lesbian. And neurodivergent individuals were eight times more likely to identify as asexual than the neurotypical population. The lead researcher, Elizabeth Weir, a PhD candidate at the Autism Research Centre, noted that these findings challenge long-held assumptions about both sexuality and neurodivergence.

Organisations like the Brain Charity have also found similar patterns that show that neurodiverse communities show higher rates of queer identities compared to the average population. There is also a Dutch study shared by SPARC that found 43% of autistic women reported being homosexual compared to 18% of autistic men. Autistic women are also more likely to be attracted to both sexes or to neither sex at all.

And so SPARC is the Simons Foundation powering autism research for knowledge. So SPARC also found research that suggests people with an autism diagnosis or autistic traits are two to three times more likely to be transgender than the general population, so that the statistics are matching there. And autistic people were also more likely to describe their gender as fluid rather than strictly male or female compared to non-autistic individuals.

Yeah. There was also an international study from 2018 that found nearly 70% of autistic people identified as non-heterosexual. Do you know what? I'm not actually surprised about that.

Yeah. Because at the end of the day, the construct of gender doesn't actually make sense. So if you're trying to describe that to somebody who's got a very neurodiverse brain who needs to know why things are done and they're like, oh, this is gender, you'd be like, why? And that is more than double the rate in the general population.

Wow. So you put it all together and these findings reinforce what many neurodivergent members of the LGBTQ plus community already know through lived experience, that there is an overlap between being neurodivergent and queer. You could also say that when you already experience the world differently, like what you're mentioning, you may also feel more freedom or more honesty in how you understand and how you express yourself.

Yeah. I know growing up, I never felt like I fit in. I'm not sure about you.

I've mentioned it before, but I've always had this sense of feeling different to everyone else growing up, like I saw the world differently. Growing up, having all these strict ideas of rules and society, that really messed with my head a lot, especially going to a Catholic school and they're like, you know, boys do this, girls do this, man and woman. And so, you know, for those who don't know, I am queer, obviously.

You never know. You never know. I am transgender and I'm also diagnosed ADHD.

Did you feel different growing up? Always. Absolutely. But I am not diagnosed with anything.

Not to say that I haven't started the journey. It's just that the journey is a long journey to go on and I'm a little bit distracted, to say the least. But yeah, I always felt different.

Absolutely. Even when I was young, I knew, I remember when I was five thinking, I don't think everyone thinks this way. Yeah.

Yeah, I know. I've had that all through, pretty much all through school. I was like, why do I feel this way? And I'm sure that nobody else feels this way and I feel so different and I, you know, yeah.

I think the brain just assesses things differently and you find yourself coming to conclusions a different way than other people do generally, because children are innately curious. Oh yeah. I think when you've got a neurodiverse brain, that curiosity goes a bit on a tangent.

Anyway, back to the facts. One US study published in 2022 looked specifically at college students and what happens at the intersection of ADHD and being a sexual or gender minority. Just to clarify those two terms briefly, when they say sexual minority, they are referring to anyone whose sexual orientation isn't straight, the terms they use in their study.

Yep. And when they are saying gender minority, they're talking about anyone whose gender identity doesn't match the sex they were assigned at birth. So that includes trans people, non-binary people, gender diverse folk and others who don't identify as cisgender.

Okay. So what the researchers found was ADHD appeared almost twice as often in students who identified as a sexual minority, about 14.5% compared to 7.5% in straight students. The numbers were even higher for gender minority students.

So you're trans, gender diverse, et cetera. Nearly 24% had an ADHD diagnosis compared to just 8.6% of cisgender students. But here's the really concerning part.

Students who were both ADHD and identified as a sexual or gender minority reported the highest levels of loneliness and suicidality out of everyone in the study. I'm not surprised. It's not surprising.

And when multiple parts of who you are sit outside the mainstream of what society says is normal and has labelled the norm, there can be added pressure, isolation and lack of support. Yeah, that's exactly right, isn't it? You've hit the nail on the head of being like, this is why. Yeah.

You feel alone. There is a sense of, I think one of the major things when it comes to, if you're looking at suicidality and people's risk, self-harm, that if people have support and they don't feel alone, it's a very protective factor. If your life consists of you thinking that you're different from everybody else and that your ways of thinking and how you are is different, it's isolating.

And there's actually a term for this. So for this kind of having the two identities and so this leads me into the next part of the episode, the double minority effect is what it's called. So do you know what the double minority effect is? I can make a really big guess in the fact that you have two minorities under your belt.

Yeah. So what do I mean when I say the double minority effect? So the double minority effect is used to describe what happens when a person is navigating more than one marginalised identity at the same time, especially in a world that still carries a lot of stigma around both being neurodiverse and being queer. So really, you could be a triple minority or do they just not go above double? If it's just more than one, then it's double.

Who knows? Who knows? So it's not just about having two labels, it's about how those identities overlap, interact and often heighten or complicate each other. Right. So when those two things overlap, being neurodivergent and queer, people often face extra challenges.

Research shows autistic LGBTQIA plus people experience higher rates of mental health struggles, poorer overall health and more difficulty accessing healthcare. A lot of that comes from minority stress, discrimination and systems that just aren't designed for people living outside of what society says is the norm. By the way, minority stress is the additional stress that members of marginalised groups experience because of prejudice and discrimination that they do face every day.

There's also cultural stigma still. Queer people and neurodivergent people are still often told directly or indirectly that who they are is a weakness, a flaw or something that needs to be fixed. Even though public opinions have improved about both, there is still some stigma.

And in some cases and in some countries, they are going backwards. So the double minority effect helps us understand why people who are both queer and neurodivergent can face unique pressures, not because of who they are, but because of how society responds to their difference. I agree.

No, it makes sense. It's no matter what, it innately makes sense. What triggers in my brain is that people who, like we mentioned really briefly, is that who are even more minorities, that in this day and age, because of who we are, you've got cultural minorities on top of everything else.

So it just makes me so concerned for people out there who feel alienated, firstly, because they're in a different culture, then secondly, because they might be neurodivergent, and thirdly, because they are queer. Yeah, and then you add on also people of colour, and then you've got another. Well, yeah, I kind of meant that from culturally divergent.

Oh, sorry. That's okay. It's true, it could mean different things, can't it? It really can.

So it's hard as well that there's all these different factors and people still perceive that being queer sometimes is a choice, which it's not. So if you've got all these factors of like, all right, well, you would have had a culture here, but now you're removed from it. So therefore, the people who are willing to support you are probably the best people in the world, because they don't care who you are.

But also, you have so many more barriers to get through with people to make sure that, oh, you're not racist, or, oh, you do understand neurodivergency. Oh, all right, so you're not homophobic as well. That's great.

But hard in a society that still is struggling with anybody who doesn't present in what it perceives to be normal. And the definition of normal has changed so often over the years, and people don't realise that. But anyway, have you heard of the term neuroqueer? Well, I can imagine that that's somebody who's heard of it.

I actually haven't, actually. No. Yeah, so I've seen it a bit on social media of late, you know, algorithms and how they work.

The term neuroqueer was created by Nick Walker and Athena Lynn Michaels-Dillon to describe the experience of being both neurodivergent and queer. So basically, another name for this double minority effect, really. It looks at the overlap between society's expectations around being normal, both in how we think and how we're expected to love, act, and identify.

By giving a name to the overlap, it helps explain the lived experiences of people who exist outside both of the norms. I like the term neuroqueer. I think it's fun.

And how about you? Do you like the term? Oh, I just think it's very simple and makes sense. It's very social media. It's very social media.

It also feels very Australian. You put two things together and that's what it is. Pretty much.

And so, of course, the big question is, why is there a connection? The first thing to say is this. Just because there's a connection doesn't mean one causes the other. Researchers don't fully know why these patterns exist yet.

They just know they consistently show up in studies. But scientists and researchers have come up with a few possible explanations. If you had to guess why there is an overlap between being queer and neurodivergent, what would you say? I think they've come up with four to five.

Well, I think the relation is from if you're, like we were talking at the top of this episode, if you're neurodivergent, then your thinking is broadened generally and therefore being open to when you're, I'm guessing when you're going through puberty, when you're having the suggestions of being like, oh, who may I be attracted to? What does this mean for me? That it doesn't have that barrier that generally somebody who's neurotypical would have. That's what my suggestion would be. Yeah, you've kind of got one of them.

So there's number one, so one of the reasons that could be, there's less pressure to follow social rules. So a lot of neurodivergent people grow up already feeling different from what society considers normal. And because of that, they may feel less tied to traditional expectations around gender and sexuality.

So if you're already questioning what society calls normal or struggling to fit into certain boxes, it can become easier to question ideas about sexuality and gender. Researchers think that the reduced pressure to fit in or conform may be one reason neurodivergent people are more likely to openly identify as LGBTQIA+. Sure.

Another is there might be a possible biological link. Right. So some researchers think there may be shared biological factors involved, things like genetics or hormone development before birth that could influence both neurodivergence and gender or sexuality.

But this research is still early and there's no clear answer there yet. Interesting. Yeah, I remember looking into that when I was in university many, many, many years ago about is it a hormonal balance in the womb that makes someone queer and stuff like that.

And there was some research that suggests that it could be a possibility back then. I think it opens the can of worms to be like, oh, queer is a condition. But it'd be the same.

It's not going to be. It could be the same as like what gives you blue eyes, what gives you red. It's not like.

Yeah. I can say from my perspective as a healthcare professional and again, my perspective is that I'd be so concerned with people who don't understand genetics and innate factors being like, oh, it's a disease process. Yeah.

And I would hate for somebody to run with that in the world that we have without literacy of what it means. Oh, yeah. Far out.

They do, don't they? Then all of a sudden we're going back to we can cure being queer and be like, nah. Exactly. Can't cure you being dumb.

Right. The third one they came up with was different ways of experiencing the world. So neurodivergent people can experience communication, social interaction and sensory processing differently.

And because of that, traditional gender roles or social expectations around relationships may feel less natural, less important or even confusing. That can create more space to explore identity in a flexible way instead of feeling locked into one idea of normal. Okay.

Kind of what you said, but in a different way. It is, but it isn't. It's experience.

And I find that really curious in itself and being like, oh, well, we only have ourselves to compare to, don't we? I can't explain to you as much as I feel with how I love people and how I get attracted to people in the same way that you can't either. That it's so hard to let people understand where that comes from because there's no words that describe it. It's the feeling.

Four is shared community experiences. So there's also a discussion in queer and neurodivergent communities about how both groups often grow up feeling outside mainstream society. And that shared experience of not fitting expected norms can create strong overlaps between queer and neurodivergent identities and communities.

At the end of the day, there's still no single answer and research is ongoing, and many experts say we need more studies that focus on real lived experiences, not just statistics. Yeah, of course. Let's talk about mental health quickly.

So all of what we've spoken about would have impact on someone's mental health, obviously. Yeah. There is some research that shows us that neurodivergent LGBTQIA plus young people often experience higher rates of anxiety, depression and suicidal thoughts compared to people who are only queer or only neurodivergent.

And a big reason for that is the way society responds to them. Right. So dealing with misunderstanding, discrimination, masking, bullying or feeling like they don't fully fit into either space adds the anxiety and because of society.

Well, it kind of makes sense, doesn't it? Because when you're queer, not everyone needs to know that you're queer. No. And at the end of the day, a lot of people won't know you're queer just by talking to you, unless you bring up that you're attracted to them or you have a partner. But when it comes down to being neurodivergent, a lot of the time... There are signs. There are signs. 

There are signs, absolutely. Not always. And even if you happen to be really good at masking, which takes so much energy, and you can just get so fatigued, but even if you're masking, you could only mask so well.

Yeah. So there's always signs. Oh, 100%.

And it is funny, because you say not everybody knows when you're queer. And the older I get, the more I pass, the less people realize that I am trans. Yeah, absolutely.

Which is great, because I don't have to out myself. But then it does make for an awkward conversation when I do out myself. Yeah.

Because as someone, especially in new jobs and workplaces, I like to be as authentic as I can be. And so when it does come to that point, seeing people's reactions is quite interesting. Because back in the day, they'd be like, yeah, kind of guessing.

And now it's like, what? What do you mean? Like, the other day when we were catching up with friends, and I was just like, oh, yeah, because we have a podcast about Let's Be Perfectly Queer, because I'm trans, and I'm pan. And I remember this friend was like, what? You've never told me this. And I'm like, well, it's not like I'm hiding it.

Like, I'm sure it would have come up in conversation. Like, I talk about you being trans if it comes up. I was like, quite often.

But I was like, if it comes up in conversation, I'm not going to be like, my partner's trans, by the way. Yeah. Yeah, it's not like I shy away from the conversation.

But I just thought it was so funny that I've been friends with this person for two years. And they were like, oh, what? Like, yeah, well, I guess that's just how, yeah. We've just never had that conversation.

But in the same way that, like, me being pansexual, it's not like that comes up. But it's not like I need to put it out there. No, and like I said, I only bring it up if someone's saying something inappropriate or, you know, that kind of thing.

And I say, okay, you might want to stop because I am trans. Yeah. Or like it comes up in just like casual things where people are talking about different topics.

And I was like, you know, then I'll bring it up. But I'm not going to go, by the way, I'm trans. No, of course.

I feel like it comes up quite often because we've got a lot of friends going, like, I've got friends who are going through menopause or perimenopause. And they're like, oh, yeah, hormonal imbalances. I'm like, oh, yeah, Archie has a lot of went through.

Yeah. Menopause, isn't it? Basically, yeah, I went through all the hot flushes. It was like three months of like hot flushes, body regulations, emotional regulations.

And it was only when I talked to a co-worker who was going through menopause and she's like, oh, you would have gone through that. And I was like, wait a minute. She's like, did you experience this? Yes.

Did you experience this? Yes. Did you get extra sweaty? I was like, what? She's like, yeah, you basically had all the symptoms of menopause over those three months. And I was like, no wonder I hated those three months.

Yeah, of course. In a way, it would be like drug-induced menopause because it's a total change of your hormones. And the thing is, as well, when you first, for those who don't know, and I mentioned it in a previous episode, but when you first start testosterone, you have an injection every month, every four weeks.

And you do that for the first three months. And that's to get your levels up to a point. And then once it's up to a high point, then you stagnate.

I think I do it every once every 16 weeks, I think is what mine is. Yes. But, you know, so then your emotions are all over those places for three months.

I was, you know, emotionally dysregulated and then sweaty. And then, yeah. Yeah, of course.

As well as like, I'm sure it had other effects with your body. Imagine doing that and then also having autism. That would be a struggle.

Absolutely. Because your relation with people is so different. And then having to go through all the hormonal changes, so significant.

That's why sometimes with, that's why they do ask if you have any other diagnoses and stuff. So then they might put you on a slow-to-release hormone to help. Yeah, yeah.

I never realized. So instead of giving injections, they might give you the cream, but then some people don't like the sensitivity. So there's all these different things.

And like, so you might do an injection once every three months or once every six months to start. So depending on who you are, how your body's going to experience things. And yeah, so it's not just a one-size-fits-all approach.

Of course not, hey. And talking about one-size-fits-all approach with talking about society and discrimination, it also means support needs can be really different for everyone. It depends on the overlap, how much of the overlap, what overlap between being neurodiverse and queer as well.

And so a one-size-fits-all approach doesn't really work when both neurodivergence and queer identity shape how someone experiences the world. Yeah, absolutely. Because even if you're going, so talking about being trans and going to a psychiatrist and having to go through that stream of, this is something that I definitely want, making sure that you're emotionally sound enough to start going through the process and the emotional intelligence to know that this is a long process.

This is a hard process. And that if you do have neurodivergence, it's going to be harder innately. We know this.

So it's such a big thing in itself that discrimination, because you know, no matter what, I mean, we don't live in a perfect world, not going to lie. And going through something that is psychologically going to have a lot of toll on yourself, physically going to have a lot of toll on yourself, but also comes with such stigmas that you have to build up a lot of resilience. And being neurodivergent, you don't have resilience because you already are functioning so much harder than what is perceived as normal.

So I wonder if, had I had my ADHD diagnosis when I went to the psychiatrist, would that have prolonged me being able to go into hormones and whatnot? Because when I, I mentioned it in my episode when I think it's called Assembling Archie. It's like the second episode. Yeah, it's been a while.

I talked about the psychiatrist and how it was a bit condescending because at the start, what's our expected kind of time frame? And she was like, minimum 12 months. And I was like, what? I was ready then and I was feeling very emotional and whatnot. After the second session, she's like, I want you to write an essay.

And the essay must have all the pros and cons of hormone therapy. And I did. It was a two-page essay or something.

She said like, you know, one to two pages. I wrote a two-page essay. I had to email it to her.

And then the third one, we just went through and she was like, yeah, I can see you've really thought about this. I can see that this is not something that you've thought about overnight. I can see you understand every risk.

I'm ready to sign you off. And I was like, but this was after four months. And I was like, but you said 12 months.

She's like, that's just the worst case scenario. But that's such a poor thing to do because when you're neurodivergent and your expectations change. First of all, the expectation of coming into it and then that being the first time that you're told that this process, even just speaking to a psychiatrist will take 12 months of review, which I can understand the thoughts behind it.

I do get it because not everyone coming into it comes into it at the age that you did, which was like 27, 29, 28 or 29. Yeah. So not everyone comes into it with the adult knowledge.

Your brain is already developed at that stage. You kind of know who you already are. You generally have a job.

You generally have things stable enough in your life. So I do get it. But for that to be the first time and the expectation to come in when you've lived a whole life of being like, this is not who I authentically am and to be like, oh, wait another 12 months of us chatting.

But this kind of it goes into the, you know, the discrimination and not discrimination, but how we're treated differently or we need to be treated differently in the medical field. Right. Because she didn't know I was ADHD.

Yeah. When you get 12 months from ADHD person, that sticks in your brain. And then I started calculating all the costs that were going to be involved.

I'm like, cool. I think it was like $380 per session. And they were like 45 minute sessions or 30 minutes.

They were very quick. And I was like, so I'm going to have to do this every two weeks to every month. I can't afford this.

Yeah. You know, and this was just when I just started teaching. And so the pay wasn't anything great.

How am I going to afford this? And then on top of that, hormones. And then on top of that, top surgery. I went on a spiral and I was very low for a while because of that.

And so then I was low for like, I think a whole month until I saw them next time. She could have just said for everyone, it's different. I can't give you a timeline.

Yeah. That would have been perfect. And I was like, cool, no problem.

I won't have any expectations. But then I was expecting 12 months and I was getting so worked up and not sleeping. And that was affecting every part of my life.

She didn't know that. But that's what happened because being, you know, neuroqueer and like having the ADHD overthinking, going through cycles, trying to work out everything. That's what I thought about it every night.

But also I would imagine that most people would feel the same way in the fact that you've been given an expected timeframe. First of all, you've not been given a timeframe. Then you've been given a very long expected timeframe.

And then that suddenly changes, which on a flip side would be grand. But on the other side, it's like, why does this keep on changing? Is this you deciding this? I would have been really freaking pissed off. And then it also goes back to like getting top surgery, because with top surgery, that was my main thing.

I was like, it's hormones, top surgery. And I needed a letter from my endocrinologist and my psych before I could get top surgery. And then once I met him for my consult, he was like, oh, yeah, you'll have sound mind.

You didn't need any of this. And I'm like, what? Yeah. So I went to all this effort.

I hadn't seen my psych in a while when I went to go get top surgery. Then I had to contact, email, phone call, all that and get the letter. And then she made me make an appointment to get the letter, which was another 380 bucks.

I know. Just to get the letter. I do actually remember that.

I was like, but why? Just to get the letter. And then I think we agreed to like a 15 minute appointment where I still had to pay 250 bucks to get the letter or whatever it was. Which is a bit ridiculous because she's already assessed you.

Yeah, it's just a letter. For everything, including hormones. So what's the difference between hormones and top surgery? It's a lack of understanding is what it is.

That's exactly it. So I was like, I have to go in. And so then I literally just got in, grabbed the paper and left.

Yeah. She's like, do you need to talk about anything? I'm like, no. And so, you know, all these extra additional stress and costs because people don't understand.

And then once I got there, had I known, because I was talking, I think I phoned them up at the clinic for the top surgery and said, you know, what do I need to have prepared? Had I known that I didn't need that at that consult and you only need it before booking at a surgery date, then I could have gone, didn't have to do that. And he would have been like, oh, no problem. You don't need anything.

Yeah. Because I also needed a letter from my doctor and all that stuff as well. It was just like, cool.

So I went through all these hoops that with someone with ADHD is very stressful to try to get all your ducks in a row. So there's just all those added stresses that people don't realize. Do you find that with going to your, because it's your psychiatrist who gives you the ADHD tabs or is it a psychologist? That's a different one now.

It's a different psychiatrist. Yeah, different. Are they a psych or a psychologist? They're a psychiatrist.

Psychiatrist, because it's ADHD medication you get managed. Do you find that talking to him, because he's quite young, isn't he? Is that the same age as us? No, he's a bit older. Because he seems to have a really good understanding of ADHD.

He's ADHD. Yeah. Yeah.

Which is brilliant. It's lovely having healthcare professionals who understand the journey that you're going on. He knows you're trans.

Yes. Have you had discussions about being trans and having ADHD? We haven't had the discussion, no. We haven't had the discussion, but we spoke about it because we have to, you know, you speak about everything, about who you are, like, just so that he gets an idea.

And in essence, there is some factors of, like, you've also got Graves' disease, which your Graves' medication, there was like a whole thing where we're looking at your Graves' medication could have affected your ADHD medications. By that specifically, yeah. Absolutely.

And so everything's so interlinkaged, as well as like the fact that you're on hormones because you're trans. Everything affects. People are, we are holistic.

We need to start treating people holistically, don't we? That's it. And like, I actually have an incredible doctor. I have an incredible GP.

And there was one time I booked the last appointment just because I just did. And then he's like, can I ask you some questions? And so he was just asking me some questions about being trans. And then we spoke about the interlink.

He was like, there is an interlink between people being, because we spoke about like being trans and he knows that I'm on ADHD medication. He's like, yeah, there is this interlink now, isn't there? There's more people who are coming up who are, we're finding more people who are queer and also neurodivergent. So we spoke about that as well.

So he knows there's a link and he's been on forums and research and stuff as well. And he's great. Like literally, we spoke for 30 minutes after my appointment just so he could get a knowledge of a firsthand lived experience from a trans person.

Yeah. So that he had a better understanding for his other patients because he does have other trans patients as well. Yeah.

And younger patients. So I'm one of the older patients. So he does have a lot of younger patients.

So he just wanted to get some lived experience understanding so that he knew how to better speak to the younger trans patients that he does have. Yeah. And that's a great thing to do as a healthcare practitioner to actually seek lived experiences because we get told all this research, but at the end of the day, it's lived experiences that make the difference for our patients and how we can actually care for them better.

Yeah. And then like, cause he was asking me stuff about like all this stuff about, you know, trans women in sports. It's not true, is it? And I was like, no.

And he said, can you explain it to me? You're like, here's a link to the podcast. I didn't do that. Damn, I should have done that.

Ah, missing out on an extra listener. Absolutely. But yeah, so we went through all that because he's like, I just want to learn because this doesn't make sense to me and I don't want to listen to misinformation.

I want to get information from someone who understands what's going on. Yeah. And I was like, yeah, of course.

And that's beautiful because then you feel heard. Right. And then you know someone cares.

So it goes when you're feeling alone because you're part of all these double minorities as a neuroqueer person. Thank you for all my like keywords. But it's that it's harnessing that I'm trying to understand you.

I want to help you. You are seen. Yes.

That is beautiful. And it's very rare. And it's so important.

Yeah. And I think that we can do that as professionals who deal with general society, whether you are a healthcare professional or an educator or actually just anybody dealing with humans, coming to it with a curious, but a understanding that the journey might be harder. But let me help you.

Yeah. I also, I'm not going to lie, I do have this privilege of appearing to be inside of society's norms, if that makes sense. Yeah, of course.

I'm not, if someone was to look at me on the street, they're not going to think I'm neurodiverse or I'm queer. No. Do you know what I mean? I agree, yeah.

in that regard. And that might be part of the reason that I have good experiences with healthcare professionals, because I fit into their model of what they feel should be a societal norm, if that makes sense. Because I'm not someone who, I don't bend the boundaries of gender.

I don't, I'm not super artsy or quirky or out there or look very different to what society would particularly expect a cisgender male to look like, if that makes sense. And so I do wonder if that does play an impact on how I am treated by healthcare professionals. And if, because for them, they can see that I kind of fit a box that meets their understanding that they're so great with me.

I'm not sure if that would play a part, but I think it might. I think there is some elements of that playing a part. I think it also plays a part that you're quite articulate and you are very introspective.

You generally have unpacked things to quite a degree before you bring it to somebody. And you have to do. Yeah, well, absolutely.

It's true, but it's having the combination of unpacking it, which yeah, that is overthinking, won't get along. I'm trying to make it look like a bow because that's what we all do. But it's being able to articulate it at the end of the day and be like, look, I've looked at all the resources because overthinking has always been women overthink.

They overthink about everything. It's the perception. It's like, oh, they fret about everything.

Well, no, our brain is wired to think about every single possibility. And yeah, that comes with anxiety. Of course it is because we are preparing for every single possibility.

But when I talk to you about it, I have thought about everything. So the consideration I've had for this is massive. So coupled with somebody who's very articulate is brilliant because you're like, I've already give you all the scenarios.

I've gone through this 50 million times in my head. This is what I'm coming out to you with what I think it is. Which is actually a gift.

And that's the thing. So every healthcare professional I've gone to, because I have a mum who is like a hypochondriac, every little thing had to go to the doctors. I had to research everything.

I was like, is this worthy to go to the doctors? I'm not going to waste my time, three hours in emergency for like a dislocated finger or a nosebleed. No, when I should have gone for a nosebleed. But anyway, for me, I have all the facts.

I've redone the research. So when I went to my endocrinologist, when I went to my psychiatrist, my psychologist, I went with everything and I said, this is what's going on. Here's all the research I found.

This is the result I want at the end of it. Let's talk through it. And then even with my psychiatrist about ADHD, he's like, what do you want to get out of this? It's like, I just want to talk to you.

I want to work out, do I have ADHD? And then what's the best path forward? And I will take your recommendation. I've looked at the different things I've seen. There's coaching.

I've seen there's medication. I've seen there's therapies. Whatever you recommend, let's do it.

All the healthcare professionals I've ever dealt with have always been like, oh, you're quite introspective, aren't you? And I'm like, yeah. I think that actually still comes from you being presenting as a man. But this wasn't always this was before as well before hormone therapy.

But I still think that because you're still masculine presenting. Yeah, I do. Yeah.

I've always had a masculine presence. Yes. Yeah.

And I think that people innately with people innately react to people with masculine presences with more consideration of being like, all right, there's a bit more respect there. Yeah. No matter what, because I it's very interesting from somebody who doesn't print like I don't present masculine, but I've never been told and I'm very articulate when it comes to health, but I've never been told, oh, you've considered that really well.

Yeah. Even when people haven't known that I'm a healthcare practitioner. Yeah.

Like I find it really frustrating still. And it could also be why like I've spoke to a lot of friends who who either their partner or themselves they've gone for their ADHD diagnosis and they've not been treated as great as I have been. A hundred percent.

And they've kind of been questioned along the whole way. And all those people have been women. All the women or they've all been women or like say all the person I've been speaking to has been their husband talking about their partner or you know, but everybody who's had the diagnosis has been a woman and my experience has been a lot better.

I've been respected. I've not been questioned. There's been no pushback.

They're like, okay. But even like one of our friends who's male who has autism. Yes.

I can see that the way that healthcare practitioners when he's talked about the people that he's seen before, whether it be physio or his GP or whoever it is, the way that he speaks to them and the way that they react to him is still in a more respectful way. Yes. Then I'm like, God forbid that we be neurodivergent queer and then have all these other minorities that we're already dealing with anxieties of people who that society tells us not specifically people sometimes, but society tells us that what we're feeling isn't real or isn't vindicated that you come to a practitioner, you tell them these things and then they're like, oh, it could be that or it could just be in your head.

And that's the thing when I was younger and I was female presenting and very like very reserved because I didn't want to be. Healthcare professionals didn't believe me. Everything was in my head.

Yes. Everything was in my head. I used to have like heart conditions where if I do much too much sport, my chest would just ache and it'd be pain.

It was almost like a stabbing pain near my heart. And they're like, oh, it's nothing. But also like it took you so long to get diagnosed with Graves.

Yes. Two or three years. I think it was two years, yes.

And granted, like not to put your health history out there, but like 100% you've got asthma. Yes. That was never appropriately was never diagnosed.

Which is probably what I thought what the heart thing was. 100% because like as soon as we got together, I was just like, honey, I think you've got asthma. Yes.

And the fact that it gets relieved with Ventolin when you have like shortness of breath. Yes. And that's because I used to run like I still love sport and thing.

And then when I overexerted myself, every time I did the beep test, I would be like agony on the ground, like my heart hurts. And I was like, and then I realized it's asthma. Yes.

And I explained this all to the doctor. Nobody said anything. Yeah.

Anyway. Anyway, we've gone on a massive tangent. That's pretty much what I have for this episode, because I can't go into things too much, but there is definitely a link.

So to wrap this up, there is an overlap between neurodivergent and queer. And while the science is still figuring out the why, because we really don't know the why, what really matters right now is creating spaces where people feel safe to exist as themselves without having to constantly explain or defend who they are. Yeah.

Whether you're neurodivergent, queer, both or neither, hopefully this episode helped you understand these experiences a little more. So true. Because at the end of the day, the why is not important.

No. The how we support is important. And you know, and there's a big onus there back on healthcare.

You take your Hippocratic oath to help people and not put your prejudice in the way. And I think there's some people are still putting their prejudice in the way and not actually listening and fully listening to the patients. Well, 100%.

I mean, I was like, if you look at the whole private sector. Yeah. It's quite difficult with the values and things that you are actually allowed to talk about and the things that you aren't allowed to talk about.

Yeah. Which is still quite concerning when, yeah. And then, you know, and you've also still got kids at schools who are going through all of this.

I know. In a world where social media exists and getting plastered that they're wrong. But it's so important.

And I think talking about all these conversations, the most important thing from it is the changes need to happen at a governmental level. Yeah. We need to have laws that support individuals from minorities, especially with their healthcare rights, their education rights, their rights within the workplace.

Yeah. To enable people to actually have safe places to live, to work, to learn. Like, that's the most important thing.

Because once we get those in place, then somebody discriminating against you is against the law. Well, because we've spoke about this. We've not spoken about this on the podcast, but with the Liberal government.

So for those who don't know in Australia, Liberal is our more conservative here. They were trying to change the Sex Discrimination Act to just mean male and female at birth. Yeah.

But then recently I saw New South Wales have actually strengthened their anti-discrimination laws in response to all the vilifications and the hate that is slowly increasing in Australia. It's not as bad as the UK and the US, but it is increasing here. And so, you know, we do still need to strengthen, but it is good that we have some states going, you know, no, this is how we're going to go forward.

And because we have one of the best sex discrimination and anti-discrimination acts so far. And I spoke about that with one of our guests, but there still needs to be more done. Yeah, absolutely.

And it needs to be done, but then also needs to be upheld. Yeah. Because at the end of the day, even with having a law, which is very important, it's upholding that as something that's, this is how we roll.

If you don't adhere to this, there has to be some ramifications against it. And if you are someone who sits in that overlap, just like me, and most probably Katie, who still hasn't got her diagnosis, hopefully you feel that you are not alone because you're definitely not alone. If you've enjoyed this episode, you've connected with us.

If you like this episode, let us know. And thanks so much for listening. If you enjoy this episode, feel free to rate, review and subscribe or send it to someone who might connect with it, because that's the best way we get our reach.

And you know what? What? Maybe the goal in society isn't to fit into boxes and not to fit into boxes better. Maybe it's to realise those boxes were never built for everyone in the first place. And until next time, I hope that we have been perfectly queer.