Finding Chosen Family Through Music with Tay from FVNERAL

Welcome back to Let's Be Perfectly Queer Podcast, your go to LGBT Australian podcast for all things queer.

This week we're joined by Tay from Australia's queer indie band FVNERAL to chat about their new EP Chosen Family, what it means to find community, and how music can connect LGBTQ+ people.

We dive into Tay's journey as a trans non-binary person, the fear of coming out, finding the language to understand yourself, and why chosen family can be one of the most powerful forms of resistance. We also talk about building a proudly queer band, collaborating with other LGBTQ+ artists, the importance of visibility, and the musicians who helped shape Tay's identity, from My Chemical Romance and Laura Jane Grace to SOPHIE, boygenius, and MUNA.

Whether you're queer, questioning, an ally, or simply love hearing honest conversations about identity and creativity, this episode is packed with heartfelt stories, laughs, and reminders that you don't have to figure everything out alone.

In this episode we discuss:

•  What "chosen family" really means 
•  Coming out as trans and non-binary 
•  Building a queer-led band 
•  The importance of LGBTQ+ representation in music 
•  Why visibility still matters 
•  The artists who inspired Tay's journey 
•  Advice for young queer and trans people

🎧 Listen now to Tay's journey through music... And until next time, stay perfectly queer!



Links to FVNERAL: 

• Instagram: @fvneralworld
• Tiktok: @fvneralworld
• Youtube: @fvneralworld
• Facebook: @fvneralworld

Transcript

Archie:
Welcome to Let's Be Perfectly Queer, a queer podcast creating space to talk about all things queer. My name is Archie, and I'm joined today by Tay, one of the members of Funeral. By the way, is it Funeral? I forgot to ask.

Tay:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's Funeral. It's got the little V in there, so I wasn't 100% sure. Is there a reason for the V? I mean, to be honest, it was like, I guess I thought it would be more like, I wanted it to be more findable to search the internet.

What's the right term for like, the SEO? Ego. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Archie:
So on today's episode, I have with me Tay, obviously from the band Funeral, we just explained all that.

And you're described as a queer super group. We're going to get into a bit more of that a little bit later, and we'll be chatting about the band, your new EP, and your queer identity. But welcome to the show, Tay.

Tay:
Oh my god, thank you so much. I'm actually like a longtime listener of Let's Be Perfectly Queer, so happy to be here. Thank you so much for listening.


That actually means a lot to us, especially, you know, we're on the other side of the country and most people forget that we exist. Oh, true. Yeah.

But before we get into this episode, did you want to tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?

Tay:
Yeah, sure. So yeah, I'm Tay. I'm a transgender binary person.

I use they, them pronouns. I play in a band called Funeral, and I guess we write like, sort of like sad indie pop stuff. It's all, I mean, I guess, you know, we're often like described and definitely self-described as a queer band.

And I think, yeah, a lot of the songs, maybe some in more overt ways than others, talk about kind of queerness. And yeah, obviously this new record does a lot, but yeah, I guess trying to, I guess use this project as a way of like finding community. I think like community is very important to me and yeah, I don't know what else about me.

I mean, I spend lots of time trying to find new dogs to make friends with. I guess that's a pretty good summary of me. That's great.

Archie:
I love that. And all dogs are puppies, obviously. For sure.

Tay:
Sorry. Didn't mean to misname the puppy.

Archie:
And community is such an important thing, especially as someone in the queer community, having that sense of community and belonging is so important.

And to find that kind of community within music is also really important because music does bridge different languages and it's such a medium that brings a lot of people together. I just wanted to quickly touch, just in case there's a listener who doesn't know, what is trans non-binary?

Tay:
Yeah. Great question.

I mean, yeah, so I, I guess it's something like the language I think can feel tricky, but like to me personally, finding that language was like a actually quite instructive in unlocking the identity or like, anyway, I am a person who kind of, I never felt that I really fit within the gender binary. I think particularly like the gender that was imposed on me as a kid always felt really incongruent. And I think definitely identified with a kind of like trans femme concept a lot throughout my childhood, but there was also something about that.

It never felt like fully like an adequate descriptor, but yeah, as I kind of, I guess as I sort of was in late high school and was, there was maybe a little bit more literacy around, I guess, like gender queer identities and gender non-conformity, at least not that that literacy didn't exist, but like for me, I didn't have that. And yeah, I kind of, I guess became, you know, as many of us go through this moment, I became like, I feel like I've said this a few times in different contexts, but I became such a good ally and really was like the best ally you could be. And I think through that was able to kind of like baby step into like community.

And I think finding people that really, that would self-describe in not just as trans non-binary, but in ways that like I had never heard of, and as a consequence, never thought possible, it really sort of was a welcoming kind of like shift in my brain. And yeah. And so I think of transness and of gender as like something that I do.

I also like, I think of it as something that I am, but gender feels like something quite like active, like a verb for me. And I feel like the trans part of it really is useful for describing, like, I don't know where I'm going to end up presentation wise. And that's something that used to scare me, but I actually find it quite exciting now.

And I think of like gender is the thing that I am like transing and kind of like moving across and within and outside of, and yeah, non-binary is tricky because I guess it is describing, it's like in opposition to something, but I think it's a way of, it feels quite expansive for me, I guess. It's a really long way of answering a short question.

Archie:
No, I love that. I love a tangent. I love the deep explanation. So feel free, feel free.

No, that's very good. You'll be surprised. You know, I go, I stalk all the forums, I stalk all the socials and that kind of stuff.

How many allies go from being allies to a part of the community is actually, I really want to be a really big ally and then a few years down the track, it all makes sense. That's very cool. And you have a new EP out and it's called Chosen Family.

What does Chosen Family mean to you personally? And has that definition changed over time? 

Tay:
Yeah, it definitely has changed over time. I think as a younger queer person, I was out as queer from kind of like quite a young age, sort of like early teens. And it was definitely something that was kind of like a concept that was in my brain, the idea of Chosen Family.

But it felt just from where I grew up and kind of the, I don't know, the people that I was around as a younger person, it really felt quite far away and really like a concept rather than as something tangible. And so it was always something that I really aspired to have and aspired to be part of. And yeah, it kind of in that way maybe had a bit of, even though it was aspirational, there was a bit of pain there in kind of maybe imagining that it wouldn't be something that I would have access to.

But yeah, about, I don't know, 18 months ago or so when I had started writing the songs that were some of the songs that would end up on this EP, I was doing more, I don't know, reading some of the queer literature that talked about it and had a bit of a light bulb moment when I realized that I in many ways have actually found that and that the people that surround me who are not, I guess, my family of origin, they are people who they function in the same way as a family and I rely on them in the same way. And it was like such a lovely kind of moment to recognize that, you know, that is kind of something that I've found. And then also recognizing that as the world kind of, you know, becomes increasingly terrifying and increasingly like unjust and inequitable, that we can feel so powerless and it's hard to resist that.

But I do think that there's something quite tangible and a kind of real resistance that I have found at least in just like leaning on my chosen family and letting them lean on me. And so, yeah, that's sort of where the definition started and where it is now. I think chosen family is resistance and resistance can be like having a nice time or resistance can be going to a protest.

But I think that I would not be where I am without my chosen family. And I also wouldn't necessarily want to be where I am without them. And is there a reason why you called the EP chosen family? Yeah.

I mean, I think that a lot of these songs, they were all either reflections on in some way of like wanting to find it or a kind of reflection on having found it and what I want to do with that or the kind of way I want to show up as a like a family member to other people. And a lot of the songs I think are really just about sort of specific experiences that aren't, they're not all overtly talking about chosen family, but yeah, they're all kind of made with people who are part of that chosen family kind of circle and all just speak to like quite different experiences of, I don't know, walking through the world as a trans or queer person moving through the world rather. And yeah, I think they all in many ways just come back to chosen family as being central to who I am.

And I guess making sure that people who listen to our band understand that I guess what we're trying to give is not like a product. It's kind of an invitation to be like part of something with us. Yeah.

Archie:
Yeah. No, that's very cool. And you've spoken about Landline exploring the fear and uncertainty around coming out as trans and non-binary.

Of course, anybody who's listening who is trans or non-binary, they will, they will know the same thing, that fear, that uncertainty that in your head that, you know, that goes around and around and around that keeps you up late at night. Looking back now, what would you tell the version of yourself who was living through that experience?

Tay:
Hmm. Yeah, that's tricky.

I mean, I think a lot about my younger self and really try to, because there was so much kind of, I guess, turmoil and kind of animosity towards myself. I feel a real want to go and be sweet to that person and just have like kind interactions because I think that's really what they were like craving. And so I don't, I don't know what I would say.

I don't, oh, I don't know if I have anything particularly profound to say, but I think maybe I would just be encouraging and say that you won't be alone and like you might be for a little while longer, but you'll find people that see you in a way that teaches you how to see yourself or maybe not teaches you, but lets you see yourself. And you'll find people that care about you, not like in spite of who you are, but because of that. I think that would have been quite reassuring.

I think a lot about, I always wish that I'd come out earlier, but I also have some understanding that I guess it happened at, whether or not it's the right time, it happened at the time it did. So it kind of is sort of hard to reflect on that. But yeah, I always felt that like time was running out and I know plenty of amazing trans folks that have come out when they're, you know, before they're 10 and plenty that come out, you know, in their seventies and eighties.

So there's no right time. And it doesn't, I think, I think maybe I would try to, that's a way of saying that I would try to tell my younger self that your being out doesn't kind of impact who you are.

Archie:
Great little words of wisdom for your, for your younger self.

And, and yeah, everybody I'm sure goes through like, oh, I wish I'd come out earlier and those kinds of things. But sometimes everything's just not aligned and you just have to kind of wait for it to all fall into place or for when things feel right for yourself. And you know, everybody's journey is different.

You can come out, like you said, when you're 10 or like 70 and it doesn't matter. You're still becoming your authentic self. It might just take a little bit longer.

But let's talk about this queer super group. There have been many people who have claimed to be queer super identities or icons or groups. Can we talk about your queer super group funeral? How did you first come together? What made you realize there was something special happening creatively? And why queer super group?

Tay:
I mean, well, so I, I mean, to shout out Ben and Maddie, who I have been collaborating with, yeah, probably for about a year and a half now.

So Ben has an amazing solo project called Junior and Maddie has a great solo project called Rageflower. I met both Maddie and Ben at separate times, but both at funeral shows and yeah, really kind of connected then and sort of quickly share music back and forth. And the two of them have been good friends for a while.

And yeah, we had just probably spent a few months of working on each other's stuff, kind of just collaborating. And I think like Funeral For Me has always been like my project, but I have always had an idea that at different stages of the project or different eras would involve really like collaborating with people in a more kind of formalized way. And whether or not that like I will always collaborate with the two of them, I don't know if it will necessarily always be as like a three piece or if it'll be in sort of less formal arrangements.

But yeah, I think, I mean, we were talking a lot about that chosen family kind of concept. And when we were writing a lot of these songs, I think it became clear that there was like a thematic kind of similarity between a lot of the songs. And I think that, yeah, I basically pitched to them the idea of like getting involved to, I guess, let the project evolve into the three of us, but then also really more pointedly to put this EP out as a kind of solid body of work that we'd all worked on together.

And so I think it was it was really like a recognition that that we were all each other's chosen family and kind of coalescing around that same idea and sort of letting the concept kind of drive or shape a lot of what was happening creatively. With this, because it's a very queer led project. Yeah.

Archie:
How does this differ from other musical spaces or other projects that you've worked in?

Tay:
Yeah, I mean, it differs hugely. I, my day job is doing production for other artists and spend lots of time in like songwriting sessions. And yeah, I am, you know, quite often one of very few or the only like queer person in the room, almost always the only trans person in the room.

And there is something like quite valuable and cool about that in its own way. And, you know, it's kind of, I think, quite useful to be bringing a different perspective to some of those contexts. But it also is like it's a bit tiring and it kind of it's like cool to be doing that like emotional lifting if you are choosing to be doing that.

But if you're not, yeah, it can start to feel like a little bit of a burden. And but I think collaborating with queer people means not only that that burden is lifted, but that there's a real kind of shared understanding that's really hard to quantify or like doesn't feel particularly tangible. But I think it's yeah, it's about being seen and being known.

And also, I think something that is so unique about queer art, like any kind of form, is that there's an inherent like understanding that you're going to take risks and try different stuff just as we've like we've all tried like different pronouns and different names. And there's a real not that all that stuff is easy or comfortable, but there's a real like awareness that to reach the best outcome, there's a need to try and fuck it up. Or I don't know if I'm allowed to swear.

Archie:
Yeah, yeah, you can swear.

Tay:
There's something quite beautiful and helpful about fucking it up, right. And about being like, ah, maybe that's like maybe that pronoun fits, but the name doesn't or vice versa.

And you play around with it. And maybe it fits today, but it won't fit like next year or something. And so I think that's a long way of saying that there is an openness that I think comes with collabing with other queer folks, or at least like these two.

Archie:
Yeah. Also, other queer people understand that identity is a journey. There's no fixed finish line or goal.

Tay:
Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you can relate to that.

Archie:
And you know, you have that flexibility of understanding each other. Everybody's gone on a journey. And we as queer people understand that identity and gender is fluid and it's forever changing.

And so you don't have to explain that some heterosexual person might be like, oh, why do you keep moving the goalposts? But it's not that. It's very different. So there's that inherent understanding.

Did writing these songs change the way you think about your own identity or experiences, especially with other queer artists?


Tay:
I mean, probably. I think that I probably think about my identity a little bit differently every day, to be honest. Just as a way of, I don't know, recognising that as the context around me evolves, so do I. But I think there's probably something even more that these songs kind of crystallise that or they really, as you're listening to a document of your thoughts and feelings and putting it under a microscope to, I don't know, edit it, or even when you're mixing it or mastering it or something, you really are forced to be critiquing what you have done and what you have said.

And I think it's, yeah, it's kind of critiquing that identity and asking whether or not something that you've said is authentic. I'm trying to think about how to translate that into something tangible, but I think, I don't know, there's at least, I think from the start of this project, like the EP to now, I feel way more comfortable in who I am. If you had asked me, you know, 18 months ago, I would have said that I am quite comfortable with who I am.

It didn't feel like there was a kind of specific obstacle to overcome in terms of like seeing myself, but I definitely feel as if I do see myself clearer than I did. So yeah, I think in that kind of way, I think probably, yeah, crystallised that identity for sure. That's awesome.

It kind of gave you a chance to look at like a private journal, but in a different way. And then you could really work on your gender with friends and through songs and be like, wait a minute, this is like a very different version from when I started 18 months ago, which is very cool. Totally.

Totally. And I guess probably the only other thing to add to that is there's a song in the EP called Hate You, that's kind of, it's been, I guess the way this project works is I start something and then I take it to different people and kind of add little bits. But Hate You was one that I had actually started with my partner, who is someone who, you know, they don't identify as a songwriter and they're a chef, so they're an artist in a different kind of way.

And they'd be deeply uncomfortable with me talking about them as a songwriter, but I mean, yeah, they write wonderful poetry and we kind of were writing about a similar experience together that sort of evolved into that song and kind of where the central conceit of that song came from. And I think that that was like a uniquely, that's an experience that I feel like I could have only had with another trans non-binary person, because there's a kind of really intangible like level of understanding and maybe a way of helping each other see things in ways that we didn't previously understand. Yeah.

So I think that's probably an important piece of it as well, is kind of being open to the, like collaborating with people who are able to sort of hold that mirror up in quite specific ways.


Archie:
Yeah. Sometimes when you have someone who doesn't come from such a fixed songwriting background, you have that kind of ability to open up a bit more creatively because you kind of try and explain things to each other and then a whole world opens.

Tay:
Totally.

Archie:
You are probably going to get a lot of younger listeners and a lot of different listeners who are queer and trans or questioning to think that, you know, some of these younger listeners are going to look up to you. So what were the bands and songs that made you feel seen when you were younger?

Tay:
Yeah, I was trying to think about this before.

It's kind of funny because I think there's probably a real shift from artists that I kind of had some fascination with that I didn't quite understand. And then ones that I did kind of were able to name. And I think kind of the one that came up mostly in the sort of before I could understand sort of way is actually My Chem, like My Chemical Romance.

I think that there's something about watching the way, and I think like music videos were quite important for the way that I feel that kind of affection and felt sort of seen in that way just because it was probably my first real exposure to drag in a way. I didn't grow up like knowing, well, I mean, I just from like reading on the internet, I like knew what drag was and about drag culture, but I didn't have any, I couldn't go and see it. Yeah, watching, I remember like watching Welcome to the Black Parade.

And I was like, I kind of get that. That was the first time maybe I understood like gender as like a doing. And yeah, it's so funny.

I think that probably lots of trans folks, lots of queer folks had similar experiences of looking at, yes, someone like My Chem, but also even more broadly, just like emo music as a way of, I guess, like moving beyond cringe in terms of something being earnest and being highly emotional as being cool or like wanted. And so I think that for sure. I think probably another one that was like really instructive in terms of being a kid who is queer, but who also grew up in like a church context was someone like Sufjan Stevens.

And I guess probably really like moves between that sentiment wise is very emo, but obviously like articulated in kind of like a folky sort of singer song right away. And also someone who, yeah, I guess maybe in gender presentation presents a particular way. But I think through the way that Sufjan sings kind of like complicates that kind of gender presentation in some sort of way.

And then obviously like artists like Sophie, who again, there's some kind of weird like telepathic knowing, like I was obsessed with Sophie before her face was attached to the name, before she had told anyone she was trans, before there was even any voice to the music. But there's some kind of like, I guess, way of feeling connected to that. And then obviously artists like Against Me, we got to see Laura Jane Grace, I think like right, only a couple of months after she had come out and they toured Australia and it was like the first time I'd ever, I actually have a goosebumps talking about it.

It was like the first time I'd ever seen a trans person, well, the first time I ever knew that I was seeing a trans person on a stage. And yeah, it was just like so powerful and really was, I mean, I found it quite confronting and I think I actually kind of distanced myself from that like project for a while because it was, I mean, maybe it was holding the mirror up too close. And then I think more recently, like artists, you know, in like Phoebe Bridger's world, like Moona, obviously Phoebe, like Lucy Dacus, Julian Baker, that whole kind of boy genius sphere, I feel like is probably, that was like really instructive to me in terms of like wanting to make a project and wanting to make music and probably even seeing the boy genius thing and being like, oh, these people are Chosen Family, like how cool would it be to collaborate with your Chosen Family? And I think the same sort of applies to Moona as well.

I think they all seem like besties that like deeply care about each other, but also want to make art and yeah.

Archie:
That definitely makes sense and I was obsessed with My Chem growing up. I was like, and I just loved Gerard and the fact that he didn't buy into the masculine kind of ideas.

He was very effeminate in his like over the top flamboyant nature and that was always so fun to watch and see that he did not give an absolute fuck about what anybody else thought. He was just like, this is me. I'm going to be fabulous, fantastic, you know, but also super emo and super rock.

And it was like, yeah, so I can definitely see that. I was like obsessed, every lyric, every video, like emo is a lifestyle. It's not a phase.

And so, you know, you play that first note and I know exactly what song you're playing.

Tay:
Totally. Yeah, I think also it's like that was, I don't think I quite understood it as well as I do now when I was first getting into Mike Hamm, but even just recognising how straight and how white and how really bro-y of a culture, sort of emo and like pop punk and heavy music world, I mean, still is, but particularly was then and how, I guess how much more significant that makes someone, you know, like Gerard and Mike Hamm just generally as like a concept.

Yeah. I mean, I can imagine that they would have had plenty of people trying to like water down some of that expression in different ways. And I think it's so inspiring that they, you know, as far as I know, like did it because they thought it was important and it was true to them.

And I mean, that's probably why that music resonates with so many queer and trans folks is because it's like a real symbol of authenticity.

Archie:
Yeah. I think you're on the money there with the authenticity.

It's like, they know that, you know, they are unapologetically themselves. They're writing about stuff that mattered to them. And if people like it, they don't care.

It's what they love at the end of the day. Totally. We're seeing more now, which you mentioned, Laura, Laura, Laura Jane Grace, is it Laura Grace? I follow them on Instagram, but I'm terrible at names sometimes.

We're seeing more openly trans and non-binary artists finding audiences. You've also got G Flip who's now big in the US because of off campus, but there are still challenges, obviously. So, you know, you have a lot more artists in the limelight who are representing the queer community.

People are going to say stuff. Visibility is still important. That's the most important thing.

And what does visibility mean to you right now? And why do you think it's important?

Tay:
Yeah, I mean, I think visibility is everything in a way. Even thinking back to that Laura Jane Grace moment, it was so significant to me. I think I was like 14 when I saw that show.

And it like, I didn't know why it made me feel so kind of good, but also like deeply uncomfortable. And I think it was maybe the uncomfortability in some ways was personal and like something that I wasn't ready to like deal with. Or again, back to what I was saying at the start is kind of how I describe myself as like I didn't have the language or like the literacy to understand myself.

But I think there's probably some sense that that uncomfortability also came from, I guess, an awareness that it was going to be like hard for someone like her. And obviously, like, I think she's incredibly brave. But it's also like it's so lame that every even positive article written about her talks about her being brave rather than just her like artistry, you know.

So I think, I mean, the visibility is a permission structure for people to be visible again, like by her, you know, doing and not that I don't mean to suggest that she's the first visible trans person, but she was like the first visible trans person to me at a particular time. Yeah, I think sort of visibility like allows other people to come into that identity. It allows for, I guess, like culture to change.

And I think, you know, I can't imagine that like her touring life would have been particularly easy right after coming out. But I think it probably like changed some people's opinions that, you know, maybe meant that they were kinder to their like trans kids or trans grandchildren when they have them. And I think visibility is everything.

It's like, I think that I probably started a band in some way from being able to see that show where Laura was like authentically herself. And I think that there are some really sweet people that follow Funeral who like are starting bands. And I think I try to say that at every show.

I'm like, if there's anyone here who's trans or queer, like start a fucking band because it would be so awesome to not have to like describe. I mean, I have a complicated relationship to describing our music as queer music or trans music because I love the label and I think the label is like exciting. And I find it attracts the right crowd when people like want people want that.

But yeah, it would just be cool if it didn't have to feel so kind of maybe deliberate or something. It's like a double edged sword. You want that visibility, but you don't want to have to have that visibility in a world that kind of makes you at the moment where if you could just be power, emo, pop, super group who has queer members, like you don't have to have that kind of like, yeah, while the world is the way it is, unfortunately, the visibility and being a queer super group like yourselves, that is important.

But it would be great for the day where you didn't have to be like, we are a queer super group. You are just playing music and nobody cares and everybody loves you for just you. The visibility is just important for it's important like being on like whenever we play a headline show, we only ever have other queer artists on the lineup, but that's something that we're able to curate.

But, you know, when we're touring, there's lots of artists that we support that are not queer or not, at least like overtly. So and I think, you know, being able to be a smaller artist on a big lineup, we often have like parents come up to us and like overshare and tell us that they have like a trans kid and they don't kind of understand and whatever. But I'm like the fact that there's a space now for you to have a conversation and also to be honest about your complicated relationship to that is like, that's so cool.

And I think if that if they can go away and do something kind of productive with that, that's awesome. 

Archie:
Making meaningful connections through music for other people in ways that you didn't even think about originally, which is, you know, which is great. And that's, you know, half the reason I started the podcast was people would come up to me because I was very open.

I used to do a lot of like, you know, singer songwriter stuff and then don't have, yeah, I don't have time for that anymore. But, you know, I used to have a lot of messages and that kind of stuff. And that was part of the reason I started the podcast was I didn't have the bandwidth to keep going with every message, every email, every person who come up to me.

I was like, I'm going to start a podcast. So then I'm like, hey, I answered this in this episode because this is too much for me to go through spending like hours, like writing back to DMs and stuff like that. And so that was part of the reasons I was like, I love educating people, but it's exhausting.

And so, you know, sometimes even with you guys, you've just might be on tour and it is hard to have that bandwidth and you're giving everything to other people as well. You know, it is great that you're doing that obviously is making a difference to people, whether you realize or not. And music, like I said, connects people and you have no idea how it connects.

You think it's going to connect in one way and someone takes a completely left turn. But a fun one to end this episode. If you could collaborate with any artist, past or present, who would it be?

Tay:
And what would it sound like? Oh, I mean, I've thought about this a lot and I feel like my answer never changes.

It would have to be Sophie. I think, well, Sophie's music like fully rewired the way that I think about music. I didn't really kind of like understand dance music or EDM.

And for anyone that knows my project, it's obviously not in that space. But yeah, I think the kind of like whole sort of like musical, like sonic kind of like landscape that she was able to make was so magical. And I think has such an impact.

Like, I know that like Brat wouldn't have sounded anything like Brat without Sophie, like, you know, years before. And most of like Hyperpop is something that's a known term now.