Theatre luminaries Mahesh Dattani & Saba Zaidi Abdi bring Dance Like a Goddess to Pause with Nandini

Dance Like a Goddess: Mahesh Dattani & Saba Zaidi Abdi on Theatre, Politics, and Diaspora in Australia

This episode features playwright-director Mahesh Dattani and Sydney-based creative powerhouse Saba Zaidi Abdi discussing Dattani’s new play Dance Like a Goddess, premiering in Sydney this August. 

They reflect on their creative journeys: Dattani’s path to theatre through movement and “rasa,” and Abdi’s decades of work across theatre, television, and film, including collaborations with Satyajit Ray and Shyam Benegal, before turning to why theatre’s live, “perishable” nature matters. 

The conversation explores how art is inherently political, addressing majoritarianism, the appropriation of religion for political gain, caste, and the suppression of dissenting voices, themes central to Dance Like a Goddess and why it is being staged in Australia. 

They also discuss diaspora audiences, the pull of Bollywood entertainment, and the need for thought-provoking theatre and training through workshops on acting, craft, and scriptwriting. 

Workshop and event details are shared, including an actors workshop, a Macquarie University master class/Q&A on 17 July, and performances on 1–2 August at The Playhouse at NIDA.

00:00 GMT20260710-044017_Recording_avo_640x360
00:27 Guest introductions
16:41 Finding your artistic voice
20:56 Art & politics
29:12 Dance Like a Goddess: the play
32:35 Theater, religion & culture
36:23 Workshops & training
46:53 Show dates & cast shoutouts

Thank you for listening! Watch all episodes of Pause with Nandini on https://youtube.com/c/NRIAffairs

Transcript

0:06

What happens when a celebrated classical dancer watches her art form become a political battleground? That is the question at the heart of Dance Like a Goddess, a new play written and directed by one of India's greatest living playwrights, premiering right here in Australia in Sydney this August. I'm joined by two remarkable artists, Mahesh Dattani, the first English language playwright to win India's highest literary award, the Sahitya Academy Award, and our very own Saba Zaidi Abdi the national award-winning director and producer who spent more than a decade building a home for South Asian theatre right here in Australia. Welcome to the show. Thank you. It's wonderful to be with you, Nandini, and thank you so much for inviting us, and Mahesh, and we look forward to our very productive and insightful discussion. Yes, I look forward to it as well. a little bit more about Mahesh. Alec Padamsee, of course, who needs little introduction, and I don't know if this is an urban legend or if it's true, but he had said Dattani gave 60 million English-speaking Indians an identity. He did. Is that true? He did say that that was his endorsement after he, after I got the Sahitya Academy Award, and, that was the, press… His press release said that, yeah. Also, a man of very succinct sort of words, you know, that stuck in many people's heads. That's right. He was a master of that, being an ad man. That, you know, that encapsulates a lot. you, there is so much to say about you, but I'll do a little bit of background. Of course, you, were born in Bangalore and to a Gujarati family, came to theatre sideways through school productions, through a stint as an advertising copywriter, and crucially through the body. You trained for six years in Bharatanatyam, and in western ballet. The double training in classical Indian and western movement I think runs through a lot of your work. Uh, you founded the Bangalore theatre company Playpen, and of course your, your plays Dance Like a Man, Tara, which is also my daughter's name, Tara, Final Solutions, On a Muggy Night in Mumbai, Seven Steps Around the Fire, 30 Days in September. You are also a filmmaker and, your screen adaptation of Dance Like a Man won the National Award for Best Feature Film in English. So you bring that lifetime of practice to Sydney, and we'll talk a little bit more. Uh, Saba Zaidi Abdi is a National Award-winning director, producer, designer and actor whose career bridges two countries, half a century of storytelling. A graduate of Aligarh Muslim University, National School of Drama in Delhi, you became a household name during your 13 years with Doordarshan, and the Indian film and television industry, worked as a designer alongside Satyajit Ray, Shyam Benegal, MS Sathyu. You migrated to Australia, did pioneering work in building South Asian media here, founding director and CEO of Vision Asia, first independent direct-to-home platform connecting South Asian communities in Australia and New Zealand with the subcontinent. In 2014, you founded Adakar theatre and Cultural Group, now 12 years in production. Yes. You know, that's a story in itself. staging Molière, Girish Karnad, Haider, Dattani's, of course, Where Did I Leave My Purdah?, lots of exciting things between the two of you. We're gonna jump right into our first question then. Mahesh, you came to theatre through the body, as we said, through years of Bharatanatyam, ballet, writing advertising copy. Sabaa, you worked, in television. You worked alongside such luminaries like Satyajit Ray. Tell us how you knew, because you had so many different sort of passions and skills, how did you know theatre was going to be it? First of all, I'm very delighted that Mahesh is here to direct a play with our theatre group, Adakar, which has been producing good quality plays of South Asian, uh, based on South Asian diaspora in Australia. And, his latest play, Dance Like A, a Goddess, is something he couldn't do in India, and he's doing it. And he will tell you why he chose Australia to do that. And many things that you have discussed in the beginning, it covers those issues of politics, of art, of, casteism, et cetera, et cetera. but, to bring, come back to your question, I have wear, worn so many hats, but at the, at the heart of it is the creative desire to express. And they're all related, because I think being a director, I have to have a full, understanding and command over a whole lot of elements. And what happened was that my fundamental training was in theatre National School of Drama, with a luminous, alumna- director, Ebrahim Alkazi. And after that, I went to television reluctantly, thinking it's a government thing, and I'm an artist, and I want to be a sarkari naukar. But, when I joined it, I fell in love with my profession. It was something that showed me- A whole world of possibilities which, about which I didn't know before. And that's where my journey started. So while I was doing theatre and I became a drama producer and, you know, documentary maker, and art, culture, dance, music, everything, they used to give you literary programs. So I come from a very literary family. So for me, all these things, they gave me a whole diversity of self-expression. And as I was, doing all this, I, my passion for creative expression took me to theatre and cinema came my way. And I became a designer, because I love to design. And it just so happened that Satyajit Ray was shooting his film in Lucknow. And, my aunt Shama, who was the main designer on it, she asked him me to show the locations, and, in Lucknow. And I was working, just joined Lucknow Television, very young. And then, So I took him around, and we were chatting, and I was showing. He says, "Would you like to work on my film?" And I just jumped, you know? It's like, you know, why not? Somebody like Satyajit Ray asking you, "Would you like to work on the film?" I says, "Of course." And that's where I became an associate, and my journey started, which was amazing. I think nobody can be as fortunate as your first film being a film with Mr. Ray. And what a huge learning curve it was. What a journey it embarked, I embarked on after that experience. And then later on, Shyam Benegal came, who's again a master craftsman. And what a lovely films he has made. And I'm very fortunate that I worked with him on, Junoon, which was again similar. And that time he gave me an independent control of period reconstruction and costume design. And, that was… You know, I said, "I'm too young to take that responsibility," when Shyam asked me, "Would you do this?" And it is same period, 1857, but one is Pathan culture, one is Nawabi culture. And the challenge was how to make the two films look different And, and I said I was very reluctant, but he says, "No, I, can see. I trust you, and I put that confidence in you." So that's where I was thrown in the deep end and had to swim. And, that was, again, a fantastic experience. And then I went to do two other of his films, which was Mandi, which again, my favorite film. We really enjoyed. That's one of the finest film Shyam has made. And then later, Trikaal, for which I won the National Award. And in two of these films I was just a designer costume, but in Junoon I was also doing the period reconstruction. So that was fantastic. Anyway, after that, I was also very much in- involved with my television work and doing theatre on the side. But, and that's where … Because television is something, you won't believe it, I'd not even seen TV before I ever became a producer with t- television. And because there was no television in India, so it was a virgin soil to toil. So we, we, set the language. We set the, We said,"Paribhasha kya hona chahiye?" Aur woh bhi ek bada exciting daur tha. Kuch pata nahin tha. Seekh rahe the, trial and error, making mistakes. And because there was only one channel, suddenly the exposure was enormous, humongous. And your bouquets and brickbats came instantly. So that was interesting. And of course, the, theatre was I was also doing plays on the side, but my, a lot of my work and energy was going into this. Then I came, of course, to Australia, as you have introduced. And, coming back to theatre in 2014, because I was doing a lot of, connectivity and television distribution, et cetera, and, you know, I could see a lot of people were asking me, "Come and direct a play here. Come and di-" And I said,"I don't want to do," so, they were doing some good, bad, and different theatre. And then I said, "Let's make a group. Let's do something more professionally, lift up the game, lift up the bar, create." And of course, for me, it was a challenge because I've always worked with professionals, and here I have to work with, amateurs, beginners, or sometimes very experienced people. So it's just that I said it is my time to give back And let us work and what I can contribute. and you won't believe it, Nandini, now there are so many little theatre groups, and they all have come and worked and got trained, and they're all interested. Because, you know, physically one can only do one play a m- year because we have no funding. We have no, Only community support, ticket sale. Sometimes we also get sponsorships, but, you know, it's not Bollywood, so it doesn't attract that level of… But anyway, I think it is my whole objective of, creating this theatre was for two purpose. First of all is to give a platform for creative expression of the people in the diaspora, the younger generation, the second and third generation of people. And other thing was to create new stories, our stories, that were not being told in the mainstream. And that's why I've also run competitions, et cetera, encouraging writers to write new scripts which are relevant to our, n- you know, our story told by us, not by a white, director. But how do we feel, and how do we… And the idea was to tell the stories which are relevant to us in Australia. Under- Living in Australia in that experience, yeah. So that is one of the purpose, and that is why Mahesh, I've been after him, write a script, and he is… Hopefully he'll feel inspired enough after this trip, to to write us on, you know, on, migrant stories. But that's a very generic, very general term, but stories that relate to us, people like us, our stories. And we are now living in a, in a global world. We travel, we travel, we carry, we leave behind, we imbibe. And out of all that, collision, new stories are born. And what is the issue of second generation, third generation? Their identity, their cultural belonging, their, you know, all those things, continuity, connectivity. All these issues are very important. So they're all… That's, right now I'm doing is to promote theatre other than doing a bit of acting. And the good news is, Mahesh, just now I got the, the film that I acted in, it's called Coconut. It was a student film, but that has got selected for Melbourne Film Festival. Wonderful. Uh-huh. And I'm, I'm doing the main role, Dadi role. So that is just now. The director called me, and he says he's very excited. So yeah, I mean, I do all these things. I wear many hats. I enjoy. Wonderful story. It's a- Sorry for a long answer, but, you know, when you cover- Many, many- 50 years Many stories within that one story of yours. Mahesh, we'll move to you right away. What is your story? Yeah. Thank you. Well, I am a bit of a mongrel compared to, you know, Saba has this rich heritage of, work. mine has been more, like, on my feet and hands-on work. And, there's something, Nandini, you said in the beginning, which is so true, and, many people don't, realize it, that I came to the theatre through the body and not through letters. people just assume, that, I came through, to the theatre through letters. but actually it was the body because I was so keen to, learn dance and movement and, yes, I did spend, five, six years learning, Western ballet and a little bit of jazz ballet and Bharatnatyam. But having said that, it may sound impressive, but I, I was ne- never really as serious and dedicated as other dancers. And, I dabbled in fashion designing, I dabbled in set designing. I, I, you know, I, I was … Before I came to, before I came home, I think theatre when I, I, took to theatre more seriously, that's when I felt I, I'd really come home. So I discovered that, What my language is. It's the language of, not just movement, not just words, but the language of theatre which is, a language of taste, if I may say. Taste in the sense of rasa, that, you know, there is an, a sensation that one gets, a, complete sensation when working on a play or watching a play. which I, in my opinion, no other art form does that, so effectively as the theatre does. So, it's been a circuitous journey, but, I feel I've, I've landed here, yes. Cool. you know, one of the things I read while I was sort of preparing for this, and it just stuck with me. It said, "theatre is the most perishable of the arts." Yeah. And the beauty of that, it stayed with me, because how true is that? You get that one shot, and it's gone. Yes, someone may film it, but it's never the same experience. No. And I thought it was so beautiful. Yeah. I- it's, uh, very interesting you mentioned this about theatre being a perishable art, because my master class is going to be about creation, preservation, and the ultimate destruction. Yes, absolutely. It's, I relate it to the rangoli, like how every household does rangoli. It's, traditionally done with, rice flour. So you put that in the morning, and by the evening, the ants have come and devoured it, or it's washed away and you start again, and that's the beauty of it. I think beauty is transitory, and, theatre is beautiful precisely for that reason. Yeah. It's so beautiful. I mean, we- It's live experience. Living it with the artist We could go so deep into just that metaphysical quality of theatre but we will come back to the here and now. And I want to ask you this. One of the things that while I was reading about both your backgrounds is that you've had a lot of very big experiences, very, creative people, giants who you've known, and you've, you've got a lot of critical acclaim. Now, that finding your own voice can be quite a journey, even for someone at whatever stage of their career, right? And one of the things is they say you can't really grow, for instance, under the shadow of a very big tree. So you have to, at some point, move outside of your, your influences and find your own voice, and that can be a journey. It can also have elements of fear and uncertainty, for artists at any stage of acclaim or, recognition. Do you want to talk a little bit about that? Mahesh, I'll start with you. Okay. Yes, I think, you're absolutely right that there is fear and uncertainty in whatever you create, because it's like either, after a while, you are, living to expectations of, what you've done earlier. And it's very easy for people to, look, look at your present work. You said, coming to the present. but people have memory, and they always, view the present, with an index or a context from the past. you're very likely to hear,"It's nice, but it's not as good as your previous work." Right? So there is- Very often… always that uncertainty. And I think, you want to capitalize on that uncertainty to create something different and, just as unique, because the worst thing is imitating success, that you follow up something successful with a model that you're replicating. You've created some kind of a template for your work, and I think that's fatal. For an artist, that's completely fatal because creativity, at the heart of it, lies about discovering the unknown, and that can only come when, when there's uncertainty. And yes, uncertainty does bring with it fear, more, they should be seen in the spirit of, artistic, grist to the mill. I think that there is something if an artist is happy and satisfied in what, you do get joy out of it when you do good work, then it, and then you're satisfied, then it takes away that desire to create new things and better things. And I am eternally, one of my director used to tell me that, "You suffer from, you suffer from, What was that word he used? divine discontentment because he was praising- … a program of mine and he just, "You did well," this and that. And I said, "No, that was not so good. That was not this. This could have been better. This could have been better." And he says, "You suffer from a complex." Was that divine discontent. But that will take you far. So that is something that, you want to continue, going through that creative journey with new exciting ideas and new productions, new plays. direction being my main forte in all these, different, hats that I have worn in life, in my profession. and I feel that there is still so much to do. my There's only one life you get, and there is so much to say and share, and I feel like living on the, on the, the edge of a thorn. So- Wow. Yeah, so living dangerously, living, chasing ideas and at the same time, if someone ever says, "Which is your best production?" I said, "The one I haven't done so far." So yeah, that is, that is the creative force that take you through your, your life and your ex- self-expression, your creativity Time's winged chariot drawing near for all of us. no, that's wonderful. I have to now talk about political art, right? and this is an eternal question, of course, with no ready answers, but given the politically charged atmosphere we're in right now in Australia with Prime Minister Modi visiting and lots of different perspectives on what it means to be Indian Australian, what does it mean to hold hyphenated identities? Where does pride come from? What is the place of culture and art in how it shapes our consciousness and shapes our humanity? And I think theatre by its very immediacy, by its very immersive experience, has a big role to play in making experiences come to life. Mahesh, you've always gone into spaces that have been uncomfortable, perhaps. I don't know if it's, getting more uncomfortable or less uncomfortable in the India that we are in today. but what are your thoughts of, on politics and theatre and art? In my opinion, all art is political, that in, some way or another you are creating a new space which is in response to an existing system. And like all systems, all culture, I think, might, endeavor to, to make your life, more, seamless and, but it very rarely does so because it is always at the cost of somebody else. that, ultimately, no matter what you say about democracy being the rule of the people, it ends up being the rule of the majority, and, we've seen that everywhere in the world today, and India is no exception to that. and I think the artist is a very important person in this scenario because you are looking… You're not looking at just toppling the system. You want to question the system the way it is, and with a hope of creating something else or creating different spaces, uh, for, for individuals to, to perch, because, there is no, 2,000, 3,000, 5,000 years of culture, and we don't have a system that's completely inclusive. it's always about, leaving someone behind, and I think a good art, good artists ask the question, who are we leaving behind? Let's just shift the spotlight on, on that, and I think, that's way, that's the way forward because, culture again is like a riyaz. it never is… We have our ideals, but we never really reach there. there's always one step forward and two backwards, so it's a constant tussle between human failings and human, and ideologies. art rests very well with, with both is that it really puts the spotlight on, where are we heading, and what does it do to, people who are not, in the gaze, of, the majority. So in that sense, no matter how personal art is, it still is political, because there's something about the individual, or a collective of individuals that, shines through art to say, "Here I am, and here we are, and you better get used to us." Yes. No, that's… Lots to unpack there itself, Mahesh. Saba, in the context of Australia- art and politics have seen, have somehow been seen through the lens of entertainment when it comes to the diaspora, right? You've got a lot of, for instance, Bollywood, cultural shows that are brought in from India and, it's a lot of fun and song and dance and all of that. Where do you think political consciousness in, the diaspora in Australia really resides when it comes to creative expression? Is it in theatre? Is it in books? Is it somewhere else? I would say that, yes, there is this huge tendency, and that's where the money and funding is in to go for Bollywood kind of entertainment. And there are two reasons for it, because the diaspora here is mostly first generation. They're all new migrants, and that is their way of connecting, with, their past, with their heritage is going to the, films and Bollywood song and music, as you said. even in India, even in the, where the main playing ground is, there is always handful people who go to theatre. So theatre has, needs a very discerning, or norm- normally it does in today's context. It's a very discerning audience who goes. And I think when we are talking about drama, doing theatre in places like Australia and Sydney, it has to be far more thought-provoking. It should not be just an entertainment, a tool of entertainment, a tool of, we had a good time. No, I want them to go back thinking, questioning, asking. And of course, we are operating in a niche sort of a scenario. But people, by and large, see, and this is what I find bit hurtful, that community is gravitating more towards majoritarianism, and art is no, no different to that, and it is being reflected there as well. And when you represent a minority in every respect of the word, it is, always hard, and it is always … Do, we do have our audience, but it is not something as dynamic and exponential as we would like it to be. So there is this issue, and people don't want to touch difficult subjects. And that is why I feel that sometimes the younger generation doesn't want to relate with what our generation is doing. And you will probably feel that, they want to, Says, "We don't want, auntie-uncle culture." This is what they're … And we want to explore because they are also in search of identity. They live in two worlds. And that's where I think our stories become relevant because, at the same time, you are recording the social, political, the human history of your time. So it's just not drama. It's what life was or life was, and like we went to see this play the other day, Doubt. When was it set in? post-war when, I think 1962 or something like that. And it is reflecting the people's attitudes, their prejudices, the, doubts that they live in and how they come across it. So that is very relevant for us today to know where this journey has begun and where are the things today. it's very important that we take real issues, real problems as they exist in society, rather than looking for pure entertainment. Because that is… That has a very s- a short shelf life, that doesn't transcend through time and space, and that is what we should aim for. That's what I've been trying to do, to take plays, which are not just there for entertainment's sake. And, Yeah … but there's a lot of fun doing that kind of stuff, but then it is very short-lived, the whole thing. Apple, I want- And that's why I've taken plays of Mahesh who, because he pushes the edge. he likes to go beyond the very, set popular stories. He picks up stories which are, hidden under the carpet, which we don't want to talk about. They're dis- they're uncomfortable. They are hard. But I will let Mahesh talk about it, not me. I do want to bring that, next to, this conversation. And Saba, you had alluded to that, that this play that he's bringing, he could not do it in India and he's doing it here. What are the reasons for that, and what does that mean for us as Indian Australians? Mahesh Oh, for me? Okay Yeah. Yeah. I th- I think, what the play addresses may specifically, uh, connect to, what's going on in India. amongst the many misdemeanors, and crimes, I think, one of them is the appropriation of religion, for political gains. And that I think is very dangerous because in India, ours is a tradition where our epics have been, central to everything, to art, to religion, to our way of life. there's something or the other from the Ramayana or the Mahabharata, which is a part of our day-to-day, lives, and the goddesses and the gods that we worship, as Hindus, they are all connected to, the epics and our history of religion. I wouldn't say our religion because Hinduism is a history, a collective of religions. And to have all that appropriated as some kind of a political flagship is very dangerous. And, my play is really about art and politics, so it questions the appropriation of classical art forms. I studied Bharatnatyam, so the focus is on Bharatnatyam, where your depictions, your varnams and your, stotram, they're, they're all about the gods, and they describe the gods beautifully, and they describe the relationship between the individual and God, as something which is romantic, it is spiritual, it has, so many complex, sentiments attached to it. And to have all that taken as, as some kind of a campaign peg, is, is questionable, and I think that's what my play addresses. And at the same time, it also looks at radical theatre which, today we have a theatre that is anti-caste. You have even stand-up comedy which, expresses a very strong anti-caste sentiment, and that's a voice that's being, suppressed. people are, being arrested on the smallest excuses just because they say something that can be challenging or evocative of, a different opinion than to saying that this is, this is the supreme truth, which it isn't. because, what we have today is not the truth, but hypocrisy the, play addresses both these, the appropriation of, traditional art and the suppression of, anything that is, seen as counterculture Gosh, this is, this in itself is such an interesting topic for me. I come from Bengal and now of course we know there's been a political shift, and Durga Puja is coming up. And, traditionally the way I think of Durga Puja is it's so true to what you're saying because it's got the worship element, but it's got celebration and it's got this, idea of Maa is ours. To worship her, to love her, to play with her as we please, to celebrate her as we please, and that freedom and that joy and that, multiplicity is what makes it beautiful. And now we see that, there's so many things to talk about, but this increasing shrinking of our worlds into this sort of like very restrictive one way to be a Hindu, one way to worship, one way to celebrate. We'll see what happens, Yeah … Bengal is a land of a million Durgas, so we'll see. Absolutely, yes. And I love the fact that in Bengal, Pujo has so many implications. It's not just religion, it's a way of life. It's a way, as you rightly said, there's so many versions of Durga that you celebrate and acknowledge and accept. I think it's wonderful. I think that's a perfect… Bengal is a perfect example of how religion, art, culture, everything have learned to, to coexist, and it just permeates our lives in so many ways. Even if you don't believe in religion, you could still partake in Pujo and have a wonderful experience. And I, I think that, and that's, the, it's no, uh, no coincidence that Bengal has produced some of our greatest writers, thinkers, artists, filmmakers, you name it. And, And, to give you an example, we have the same thing like the cons- institution of Muharram. Yeah. You may not be a religious person, but it brings so many elements together of poetry, of recitation, of singing. basically it is Sozkhani. And the whole art forms are as, some of the greatest writers have written marsiyas. And some of the best voices, all the great musicians of India used to do Sozkhani, and 10 days, 12 days of Muharram they will not touch an instrument. And they will just, because it's supposed to be the period of mourning, but there's a whole culture associated with it. Absolutely. And that is why, people think that religion is just religion. It is so much, so many manifestations of it which we see, and to, to, condemn them is, I think, very, very, shortsightedness I, think what we're condemning is really the system, the organization of religion for political gains. Yeah. And of course, when I say political gains, it's not just, uh, the s- state politics. it could also be the heads of, religion and any organization which is capitalizing on the fact that we're all religious in different ways. Even if we don't believe in God, uh, there is still a such- Yeah. Yes. Of course, in a World Cup year, football is a religion for many. Absolutely. and I am sure this time we will see many pandals in Kolkata, football-themed and, and maybe you'll see Ma Durga taking the first sort of penalty kick somewhere. Who knows? It, this is the beautiful thing. and that's the beauty of it. all right. I want to go back quickly. it wasn't in my planned sort of questions, but I do wanna touch upon this. And Saba, you said the theatre is seen a little bit as, an elite, or a nuanced to a more sort of evolved appreciation, right? But, theatre is also Jatra. theatre is also like- Also theatre. when- Street theatre yeah … shakespeare, which is i- common people coming and standing around and actually interacting and, the, just that, immediacy of theatre. Yeah. Being from the people and being of the streets. How do you… And you're doing workshops, and I find workshops may be one of those spaces where you really get to explore that thing, where you're co-creating and you're teaching, and people are right there. Tell me about the workshops in that context. Like, how do you revive that sort of earthiness of theatre? I think the whole idea was that, we will focus on the craft of, our acting, and we would… the actors, as you said, the traditionally Indian, theatre was a very populous theatre and it existed in folk forms like Jatra, Nautanki, Bhavai, so many forms. Yakshagan. You take it, and they are one of the oldest forms of, creative self-expression in theatre. But I think over a period of time, with cinema, with all those other forms of entertainment, I think they have diminished a bit. They have, a lot of them have disappeared because there is no patronage. However, having said that, we all drive from those, theatrical forms. For example, I, did a play where, it was a Moliere play and it is a comedy. But then I used the element of Qawwali as a Sutradhar. Oh, wow. and we said, and we use that form. Or, you take Nautanki form and you use it for- Taking complex dramas and using that art form. So we are all very, creatively inspired, but I don't know how much it is patronized by people in general. And Mahesh will be better because he's coming from India. But here I think it's very important that we do introduce them. So like in our workshops, we are talking about Natya Shastra. We are talking about the Rasa theories. We are talking about how your, your bhava, your gestures, your movements, your… And theatre is, and dance, music, and, abhinay. So in our traditional art forms, it is the mixture of three. So entertainment of, Natak is born out of these three elements, and that is important to understand. And that's reflected in our cinema and every, all our art forms, is the basic aesthetics is that you need to have all these three elements present in drama, and that's what we are trying to explore through this workshop. Idea was to, of course, use the wisdom and experience of Mahesh with all his, And he's a good theatre teacher. So we are using all those things and, because most of the time people just come and do a role and go away, and they learn a little bit here and there. But to understand what your body, what your expressions, what is your abhinay, what is the… And then going deeper into it, interpretation of a character. How do you, create the mise en scene? And all those elements. So that is the idea, is one was on script writing. So being a master script writer, Mahesh was the ideal person to do that. And how do you, from an idea to a script, what is the journey? How do you structure the whole thing? And you go all the way back to Greek, or Natya Shastra, and all these things, the treatise which defines how should drama be, constructed, or the techniques. Of course, you break away from them because that is what the modern drama is all about. And then we talk about the art form. Now, here is acting, and then we are doing a master class, which is primarily about his art form, which we are doing with Macquarie University, drama club. Yeah. Mahesh, your take on this? Yes. first of all, I would just like to say that, these are, workshops that last a few hours, right? whereas the kind of, extensive training that Saba is talking about takes a few years. and I, hope, that the participants of the workshop leave the workshop realizing how little we know. I think, and, that includes me. I think it's you're a perpetual student. I may have been practicing theatre for the past 40 years, but then the times when I suddenly say, "Oh my God, I didn't see it that way." So I think it's a constant learning. And, this is, one of the, Things what I call the here and now culture is that we're so grown up on fast foods and, if people, don't like the uncle-auntie culture, I think the, Instant gratification. Yes, instant gratification, and uncles and aunties like us are also, uh, victim to that. this whole thing that I want, to be… what, where we are heading is that we've stopped being appreciators of art and we've become consumers of art. we consume art, is that we can sit in our living rooms and channel surf and say, "Okay, I'm gonna watch that." And even if you're looking at movies that are, somehow path breaking or ideological, Satyajit Ray's movies, you can watch them on MUBI, right? So the whole film festival culture, the, whole, idea of, viewing something, a work of art together with other people as you do in art house cinemas or in museums or on the streets where an artist displays their work, that's so much a part of appreciating that art. Why is it that, the Durga Puja for instance, it, can only… you don't have that in your living room for just your family members. Even if you do install it in your home, it's open so people can come and share it, and that's, part of the magic. And I guess because that culture has survived, we still have that. But I think in most urban cities, and, I can't speak of Sydney because I'm a visitor, but I can tell you in Bombay it's so much about, can I avoid going into the traffic? Can I get it delivered at home? watch it on, Netflix or MUBI, then, I would prefer that. So I think, we have to seriously consider… And I think I'm very grateful that, even if I have a limited audience, they have taken the trouble to wade through the Mumbai rains and the traffic and come to the theatre and given you their time if not their money as well. And I'm just so grateful that we still have an audience that does that. Wonderful. Yes, and I did, some years of my education in Bombay, so I was a frequent sort of, audience at many of the plays there. we'll wind up that bit, but I do want to talk a little bit about, the actual, you know- The excitement to create for you. Because you- when you've had a long career and you've had success in different ways, and you said, lifelong learning to stay as a child. And sometimes given the state of the world, so much collapse of, the environment. Forget, So sometimes we say all of us who work at, in the activism space or whatever, we're like, "Before people will get us, we'll all fry thanks to the environment, or freeze," So there's environmental pressures, there's political pressures, there's all of these fissures within people on religion and caste and all of that. What keeps you excited as a child to create? I think there's always something to discover, either anew or with fresh eyes. So something has changed, and that's why you can, you could continue to a- marvel at sunrises or sunsets or to walk along the beach. it's … You're rediscovering. You're seeing it through new eyes every time, and I think that is what theatre does best. we're not, in a s- we're not trying to give new information to the audiences because I think the internet and AI does that, uh, reasonably well. what we're, what we're giving them is an e- experience that they can have anew. I think that is where, uh, I… That's what excites me the most, and it can only be new if you've discovered its newness, as a, creator. And as you rightly said, it's so important to keep the child in us alive, that there is a certain… Art can only be created through naivete. Art is not about rules, and, you may master the rules, and make very shallow art, and you may not know the rules and make great art. it's possible. I think the, the, correct technique actually helps you to, uh, to discover things anew. what good technique and good theatre training is doing is it's releasing you from all the, uh, the censorship, the self-censorship and the inhibitions and the, restoring, experiences from memory and comparing the present experience with a past memory. I think these are the limitations that keep us from being alive, and I see, art as, pro-life in that sense. And I think, one of the things that, when people ask me, "What do you mean by aesthetics?" I look at it poetically and say, "You'll understand aesthetic if I mention what I think it's its opposite." And for me, the opposite of aesthetic is anesthetic. So it's that numbness between the anesthesia that, present day life offers us. We can succumb to it or we can fight it, and, uh, rediscover, aesthetics through that. Beautiful. Saba, give me the dates and all of that the- Yeah … workshops are. I know you have one coming up very soon. Yeah, one is coming on Saturday, which is the, actors workshop. And then we have on 17 of the Friday at Macquarie University, which is, the master class - Mahesh's Q&A session. And then we have, on our actual production, which is the main event, because this is like- on the periphery. The main play is on 1st and 2nd of August. There are two shows on Saturday, at 3:00 PM and 7:00 PM. At, it's at The Playhouse at NIDA. And the other, on Sunday we again have two shows at 2:00 PM and 5:00 PM. So- Wonderful … would love to see, all your followers at the show because at the end of the day, it is the patronage of the audience which keep us, which sur- make us survive the theatre and keep doing it. And we have some wonderful, actors, some new, some old. So the role of the, the lead role of Lata is being done by, Aparna Tijoriwala who's a very seasoned actress. And she has we have done, other plays of Mahesh also in Sydney, and she has acted in Where Did I Leave My Pardah? And she is, she's doing the lead role. We have a new actor, Mayur, who is doing the role of the male, the politician husband. And, it's this very … I won't give you the story away. And we have, another very nice, talented young actor, called Aryan Nanda, who is playing the son's role. And another new actress, Neelam, new for our theatre Neelam Singh, who is doing the, his girlfriend's role. And then we have two other, actors, uh, Smarajit Dey and, uh, Mittal Bhavsar, and they are doing, other two roles in the da- drama group. So and then on the creative side, of course we have Sumati Krishnan doing the sound and mu- the music and we have, I'm doing the costumes of course. we also have, uh, Tushar Bose with sound. lighting, sorry, he's doing the lighting. And set has been designed by DJ, Dhrujoti Ghosh, and he is their, production management is, Sumajit Dey. He does all the work for us. So it's just a small team, but quite a dynamic team. Okay. We have Saravana Bhavan who- Okay … which are the thea- yeah. And they will also be doing the catering. And then we also, we have, Rajiv Dixit with DBS Accountants. Okay … he is doing that. And then of course there are a lot of SBS and, radio and, press. They are sponsoring, supporting us through- Yeah … promoting it. yeah, because I think it's a lot of energy goes in getting the sponsors. Yeah, of course. And of course, our biggest sponsor is, Kuring-gai Council, who have given us the space to, rehearse, which is a big, And they are also, they have a Stages of Spaces program in which they have just started and they want more creative work to be done in the council. So we are lucky to have got that opportunity. And we are also doing workshops in that, and we are hoping to get some grant. But at this stage it is all self-funded Okay, great. I see your, poster there. You've got Saravana Bhavan, DPS, Then you've got Desi Australia? Yes. We are- Yeah … yeah You've got AMUST, of course. you've got Novera Media. Yeah. You've IABBV Hindi School. Yes. Kehte Sunte Radio. Yes. our dear friend Manbir's, and your poster designed and created by Kashmira Sachania. Yes? She is wonderful. She has done a great job. And sorry, I forgot to mention her name earlier, but she's a very, important, m- team member, and she does lovely work. In fact, this whole co- pro- the poster was her brainchild. And, And I see Babasaheb's picture there, which is wonderful. Sorry? you've got Babasaheb Ambedkar's picture in the poster. Yes, that's also there. So she just read the play, and she came up. And the first, first project that, the first draft she gave us, first design, we says, "That's it. You've got the capture just great." We don't have to g- go for more. Yeah, so she does, she has been doing for a lot of my plays. She's wonderful. we all have, evolved a whole group of people who think and appreciate each other's capabilities, and we try to inspire each other. We all draw satisfaction out of it, some sort of a joy of creativity. And of course, I have to provide the leadership for that. Yes, of course. And I'm so glad that you're doing this. All the best to the team. And Mahesh, I hope you have a wonderful experience and keep coming back for more. Yeah. And I hope to watch your play one day in Kolkata, which would be fantastic. Come and see it in Sydney. You're invited. of course. If I can manage to come to Sydney, I will, but if not- That'd be wonderful I'll see you somewhere in the world. Yeah. Thank you so much, for joining us. Thank you. Thank you for having us. Even as we speak, there's a translation in Bengali of where did, where Dance Like a Goddess happening. Oh. Yeah. And- Oh, how wonderful. Huh Yeah … the wind had picked something up. All right. Bye. Thank you. Thank you so much, Nandini. Thank you.