Why Financial Independence Is A Leadership Advantage| Khanyisa Phika: VP Credit Portfolio Analytics at ABSA

What does it take to build influence, create wealth with purpose, and lead with conviction in today’s Africa?

In this episode of Africa Rising Leadership Conversations (ARL), Nomazibulo Tshanga sit down with Khanyisa Phika, an accomplished economist, risk leader, and advocate for inclusive wealth creation. With extensive experience in banking, investments, and enterprise risk, Khanyisa shares practical leadership lessons from navigating high-stakes environments while remaining grounded in purpose and service.  

Together, we explore:

• The intersection of leadership, economics, and impact.
• Building influence before authority.
• Financial stewardship and creating sustainable wealth.
• Leading with courage in complex corporate environments.
• Why authentic leadership is the foundation of lasting transformation.
• The future of African leadership and the responsibility of today’s leaders.

This conversation is for executives, entrepreneurs, emerging leaders, students, and anyone committed to shaping a more prosperous and values-driven Africa.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

I always say economics found me.

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 0:03

Because of my curiosity, and I always wanted to know how things work, why things work the way they do, especially in communities? I lived in a township studying and went to high school and primary school in a suburb, and you could see the differences in lifestyle and how people show up. And I always wanted to know like how is it that we stay here and they they can live there and they're only that type of people.

SPEAKER_05 0:29

But how does that shift your worldview as you step up into spaces as a woman? I think it gives you a sense of independence.

SPEAKER_04 0:37

Because I had no one else to rely on, you kind of have to show up. That's why I say sometimes, you know, even our bare minimum is so excellent because you had no room to be a mistake. I think in that sense, I needed to find my little pockets so that I could feel like I also firstly belong. But even there, you saw the challenge of few women leaders who were there, and you know, few women voices, and it made you think, geez, you have to wait for them to retire before you can have a space. But it teaches you to.

SPEAKER_05 1:12

What are the things that no one warned you about? Corporate?

SPEAKER_04 1:17

I think we underestimated politics. And my dad was a history teacher, and he would try and engage, you know, with us to understand what the political landscape is. But when you get to corporate, uh, and you'd hear right from family members that oh, corporate is the pit of hell, and you're like, okay, I'm all like, I mean, what do you mean? I'm tough, I can handle it. You might have talent, you might even have a personal brand, but if you don't understand the politics of your environment, you will. I think for me, what will make me feel like the work I'm doing has made an impact is to see people talk about money the same way we talk about recipes, the way we exchange memes, and you're exchanging a share and saying, friend, have you bought this? Or, friend, did you see how well the top 40 did on the JSE this year?

SPEAKER_07 2:13

Africa Rise Today.

SPEAKER_05 2:19

Hello, welcome back to the Africa Rising Leadership Conversation with your host, Noma Zimbulochanga. I am not alone. Today I'm with an exceptional woman who's doing amazing stuff in corporate and just um in a space of finance, right? Um, teaching us financial independence, financial freedom, and also reaching out to the women, right? The women that are, you know, um that are like us, you know, that wants financial independence. And I think this topic is very important for women, right? Um, because we live in an era where um both men and women have to be financially independent so that we can contribute meaningfully to our families. And I think it's a topic that we have to explore and and really dig deep and and and also go into a um, you know, getting to ensure that financially literacy, financial literacy even reaches people at the lower level. Um but before we get into that in terms of what you do, I am with Ukanye Sapika. She is the vice president, credit portfolio risk measurement at APSA. She's also the deputy chairperson of um APSIP, um woman in finance separately. I think it's a chapter. Maybe you call it a chapter, Women in Finance. She's gonna speak to us about um climbing the corporate ladder and um finding her voice um at a table in a male-dominated environment and also just finding a voice as a woman and that financial freedom, right? Um, but we need to take it back, um, take it back where it all started. So just take us through to your journey, like who is Kanye Sa before the marketing or the markets lady or the finance lady? Uh, thank you, Noma.

SPEAKER_04 4:00

Thank you for this invitation because for me, it's such an honor to sit here with you and to speak about things that I'm really passionate about, which is financial independence. So, Kenisa Pika um grew up in Soweto, Middle East. I was very curious in my childhood. When I got to university, I knew that even though I was a science student, it wasn't really what I wanted to do. But I didn't know what I wanted to do. Didn't have the language for it. I didn't have the language for it. I had a sister who was pursuing her CA, and I thought I don't want to do accounting too. But guess what? I went and enrolled for accounting. And because that was my other commercial subject that I had. But um, my first lecture was actually economics. I always say economics found me.

SPEAKER_00 4:45

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 4:46

Because of my curiosity, and I always wanted to know how things work, um, why things work the way they do, especially in communities. I lived in a township studying and went to high school and primary school in a suburb, and you could see the differences in lifestyle and how people show up, and I always wanted to know like how how is it that we stay here and they they can live there, and they're only that type of people. Um, and so I was always curious, and that's how economics found me, but really it was the aha moment of oh, this is how it works, um, and I can be part of it. But I can tell you, even in my varsity years, it was almost like I was in a trance. Things were just happening to me, right? Life was happening, I was passing along. Um, and even when I started working in in government, because I worked in government in the public sector first, and that gave me, I think, a sense of knowing that what I do means a lot. So when I worked as a tax administrator, I used to feel like I am adding value to society because even though I was sitting on my corner, I knew that the taxes that were collected were going to build a school or build a hospital, something that society requires. Um, I think the second part of your question is on finance and how I got to be the lady in the market. It's very interesting to me because you want to solve problems and you want to see more people like you. Um, when you enter into a space and then you start seeing that people are in leadership. For me, in fact, um, when I started my career, the executive women were either divorced or they had estranged relationships with their children. So it wasn't like something to aspire for when I believed in family, I believed in having good relationships with kids. So I had to meet more people because I knew that then it just meant I hadn't met enough people in my circle. And that's how I hopped around to see, okay, why do women not or why are so few women in leadership within the sectors that I worked in? Um, and really for some of them it was exposure, but for some of them it was really about survival. You get into a leadership role, so much is expected of you. Really, you forget that actually there's other women who need to be either mentored or coach because you yourself are also trying to find your feet.

SPEAKER_05 7:10

And and tell me, um, just taking it back again, um, how you grew up, and I just need to understand what sort of um you know societal structures you you grew up in and and how has that shaped you um to the person that you are today and the leader that you are today? And I think I'm asking this. Um I think it's important for us to really go back into where we come from and what shaped the thinking um and and the people that we are. So what are some of the early formative um factors that has shaped the woman that you are today, whether from a a parental guidance point of view, community guidance point of view? Because I mean, I'm assuming that um in the when you were growing up, right? Um it it you know the the the the so what was highly politicized, it it had you know high social ills and etc. How did you stem out and to become this beautiful woman that is contributing meaningfully to our society?

SPEAKER_04 8:07

And you know, Nam, I think only now in my old age do I realize that it's not by chance that I probably made it, if you like, made it out of the hood, but it's really God's grace for where we started as a family, right? I had parents who um were both teachers, and really my mother learning from her own mother, even my paternal grandmother, they were community leaders. So for me, it's it's almost like um second generation or third generation in my case to serve communities. It was never really about um serving self, right? Um, so that's what they taught me in terms of my primitive years. Um, I went to a very primitive church also growing up, which had a lot to do with my identity because men were on the one side, women on the other side. Um, and for me, that just showed me. I remember asking uh my reverend at the time, because he was the only man who had a car. All the other women used taxis to come to church. And I was like, are people at your church actually rich? Because I want to make money. Yeah, so I I don't think I'm gonna be, I can sustain this church. It doesn't look like it's progressive. You guys don't look like you're ambitious enough. Yeah. And I was still young at the time, right? Um, but I think learning from my mother, just watching her, um, and I'll say this with the utmost respect for my dad. She was a single mother in a marriage, right? And it was because she wanted more for her children. I suppose sometimes you have an inner knowing that your kids are going to be more. You don't know what it is, you don't know where the resources will come from. But she made effort to improve herself. She studied while she had us, um, I mean, she did her honors when I was in Varsity still. So you look at those things and you're like, people know that they are more than just being a mother, being a church leader, being a community member. You also have your own dreams. And I think that's what I got from from my parents. Um put yourself first, hey? What you want, you go for, and you don't apologize for your dreams. So that's also a good learning that I got from my upbringing. But yeah, I mean, you grow up in a souto. Um, already when you step into the room, you feel the consciousness of you come from somewhere that's that, you know, doesn't look like where you are, but you have to take up space, right? And I think what I love about Soweto and how many of us who come from there, we have an inner confidence when we step into rooms. Um, I don't know if that's how we were raised, but there was really no time to feel sorry for yourself about your situation. You step into a room, you expect it to be excellent because the competition is really high. Um, and even then you want to show up and show that you you can do stuff and solve problems. I think that's one big thing. And then now, agay, you you realize that I mean, in my generation, unlike my parents or my grandmother, I have a little bit more than they did. Um, and I I feel like my sense of community is how I give back because I don't have more people living in my in my in my house, for example, like they did, where they would take community. But I think in how I serve community in the spaces of finance, in the spaces of church, that's how I feel that my home is full because I'm um I'm giving back here.

SPEAKER_05 11:35

And you're becoming selfless. You kind of put yourself um behind because you want to serve other people. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me, um, if I were to speak to your siblings, right, how would they describe little Kanyesa growing up in Sowet? What would they say? What would they tell me?

SPEAKER_04 11:53

So I have two different stories to share with you, right? So when I lived with my grandmother, I was the youngest cousin amongst a whole lot of us, and they would probably tell you I was the most spoilt, um, and I was the one that would always uh get them into trouble. But at home I was a big sister, and so I was always an example. So it wasn't like it wasn't fun to be home because you kind of have to act a certain way and you'll be reminded, hey, your sisters are watching you. I'm like, why? Why are they watching me? Why can't they do their own thing? Right? Um, but as I think now, I think my parents would appreciate that I'm a textbook child outcome. I mean, I went to school, got good grades, got a job, got a man, got married, got kids. So, in that order, I'm sure they are proud, right? Um, but for my sisters, I I was probably um a disconnect for them. Why? Because you are a pedestal and you're always compared to someone who's never do who never seems to be doing something wrong. Because at the same time, um I think what I failed to mention earlier is that I was raised in a primitive type of setup, but that meant I was raised in a fear mentality. So you're really scared to do a lot of stuff. I mean, I went to a uh a traditional old church where there were prophets in the church, right? So you'd be like, I absolutely don't want to be profited on so I will not do anything. Um, so you you live your life on eggshells for the most part of your childhood, and when you realize that there's a life out there, you're like, oh my gosh, there's so much to explore. Um, but you gain from the from the wisdom. So I think that they would say, um, you know, they learn a lot from me. Uh, and maybe only now they understand why I was hard maybe on certain things. As a big sister, you want your sisters to do well, you want them to step into their own greatness and to see their own light um so that they can also you know live in God's purpose for their own lives.

SPEAKER_05 13:56

Yes, definitely. Um you you talk about being a firstborn and and taking on this responsibility of becoming a deputy parent, right? Which is um something that is common to black families. I'm also a firstborn at home. Actually, my name is Noma Zimullo, means Izzy Mulo, you know? Yeah so um I also had to, you know, shape up and and and and be an example um to to my siblings. But how does that shift your worldview um as you step up into spaces as a woman?

SPEAKER_04 14:25

You I think it gives you a sense of independence. For me, because I had no one else to rely on, and you kind of have to show up. Um, when you get into a space, it's almost like that's why I say sometimes, you know, even our bare minimum is so excellent because you had no room to be a mistake.

SPEAKER_05 14:44

And you don't have a benchmark.

SPEAKER_04 14:46

You don't, also, right? So you step into places. I mean, my parents were teachers. I remember with my first job, um, I stayed, I think after I graduated, I I was about four months without a room. And the first one that came happened to be at a public sector, and my parents were like, Yes, that's the one you must take. And I was like, Really? They're like, Yeah, if you work for government, no one is going to find you.

SPEAKER_05 15:07

But you and it's pension fund, it's unlimited pension.

SPEAKER_04 15:10

I know, I know, yeah. And you know what? Um I took that advice, and I'm like, but my parents have worked in the same place for so long. When I think about it now, I'm like, okay. But even then, I think my nature of curiosity, I could not sit still in the places in in that environment. So yes, I spent a lot of years um at SARS, but when I say I moved along with the different.

SPEAKER_05 15:38

It operates more like a corporate. It's like I've worked for CSIR and it's a public sector, but it doesn't when you're there. It's like it's like a private sector actually. It operates differently. It does.

SPEAKER_04 15:48

We do serious work. So I think in that sense, yeah, I I needed to find my little pockets so that I could feel like I also firstly belong. But even there, you saw the challenge of few women leaders um who were there and you know, few women voices, and it made you think, geez, you have to wait for them to retire before you can have a space. But it teaches you to think differently. Um as a firstborn, you kind of find your own solutions because I mean, if your parents don't have a finance background, they can help you. And I I think in my parents did not necessarily invest in the relationships that would add value to our corporate life or um they do not know how. I think so.

SPEAKER_05 16:32

So it's not even about them not thinking about it, it's just they don't know how. Yeah. Because no one invested in their parents didn't invest in those relationships either. Absolutely. So they didn't have a benchmark, they did not know how. So I believe our parents just did the best with what they had. And that was it. And it's up to us now to really take it forward. Yeah, yeah. So you you're now studying um finance, right? Um, I'm assuming BCOM.

SPEAKER_04 16:56

So I did uh BCOM in econometrics.

SPEAKER_05 16:59

Um that choice. I mean, who knew about BCOM economic economic matrix in your time?

SPEAKER_04 17:07

No one. So obviously, as you're introduced to, you know, the undergraduate program, then you start to think about okay, what honors can I do? Like, oh, do I want to do international trade? Maybe not. Uh and then you hear econometrics.

SPEAKER_06 17:20

That sounds very fancy, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:23

Um, and then you realize that actually it's one of the uh tougher choices, and you're like, yeah, I can do hard things, so I'm going. Um and you go there. Then you hear people um talk about, oh, can you, you're so tall, you're so skinny, you should model. I'm like, yes, I do econometrics. Yes, econometric modeling, that's what I do. Yes, actually. Love that, yeah. So um, yeah, I I think like I said, economics found me, and I think it was for the purpose of the kind of work I'm doing now. Um, I probably wouldn't have done it in marketing where I thought I was thriving because it was one of the subjects that came with my degree, and I really chose the hard stuff, and maybe it was for this reason.

SPEAKER_05 18:04

For the reason, yeah. Um, you are now in corporate, you're getting into corporate, you are climbing the corporate ladder. What are the things that no one warned you about, corporate?

SPEAKER_04 18:14

I think we underestimated politics. And my dad was um history teacher, and he would try and engage, you know, with us to understand what the political landscape is. Uh, and when there were campaigns, you kind of have to hear what the different uh manifestos were. Um, but when you get to corporate, uh, and you'd hear right from family members that, oh, corporate is the pit of hell, and you're like, okay, okay, I'm allowed. I mean, what do you mean? I'm tough, I can handle it. Um, I think you underestimate that to advance, you might have talent, you might even have a personal brand, but if you don't understand the politics of your environment, you will lose out on great opportunities. Another thing was I was really good at advocating for others in any case, right? So I would champion, celebrate friends, colleagues when they did well, but I didn't see it in myself. So that's when I I realized by if you don't talk about the good things that you do, um, no one's going to talk about it and no one's going to recommend you. And in fact, they're going to overload you with more work. Um and I think uh having mentors in in corporate was kind of like misleading because people would say you have to find a mentor, find a sponsor, but not tell you how. And so a lot of mistakes were done um in in my junior years because I expected that my mentors would answer questions that they had no care about. Um but also learning from that wisdom to say some of the insights I got only made sense later in my career, and some of them making sense now. So you're like, okay, so you were the information was there, but it wasn't the right time to receive it. Um and also that corporate has money. Um so a lot of times you'll hear this budget cuts. It's really in how you show up, how you articulate, and how you ask, um, and being humble enough to, you know, to raise your hand and ask, because you you will raise your hand and they'll give you the work. But if you don't ask for the compensation, you never get you never get.

SPEAKER_05 20:25

So it's all about uh finding your voice, right, in the midst of everything that's happening in corporate and um your voice being backed up by what you deliver, like the high quality of service that we deliver. Um, I think your work, you know, that thing that says your work must speak for itself, um, so that it's easier for you to have money conversations with your boss. Um and and what are some of the challenges you're then encountering? Now, you are currently a vice president. I was I was actually um um emphasizing on this point before off air and asking you, just checking if you are a vice president. Do you know how big that is? Um well done, and congratulations on that achievement. And um, so you're now the vice president of the credit portfolio risk management at ABSA. Um what are some of the challenges now as you are climbing this corporate ladder that you are facing and you're thinking, hmm, this is not what I signed up for? And is there a moment where you felt maybe I I need to quit? Uh this thing is not for me.

SPEAKER_04 21:25

Look, when I joined uh the risk team, I came from a front office, right? Fully-fledged macroeconomist. I enjoyed being with clients, I enjoyed uh, and it was really about learning a skill that I didn't want to study for. So I knew I was getting into a space where I knew nothing about risk at that level, uh, and I was willing to start at the bottom because I knew that I I had no background. But when I tell you, um, in hindsight, when I realized now, like ha choosing a That's outside of your personality. I think I was listening to Mum Goboto speak about when she realized that audit is really not her thing and leadership is, for me, that's what I then realized. I'm like, but can you you don't have to still try for the hard things? You've already built your brand. You're already known for something in industry. You don't have to start from the bottom. And it I suppose it it was too late, but the benefits of being in the space for me was that okay, I came from a background where as far as I felt I was growing the economy from revenues. And then I went into investments where I said people are protecting their income, creating wealth in through investments, right? So total contra contrast. Yeah, but also still thinking about the broader economy that you know you're helping now people with their retirement savings and building them wealth and legacy. And then now you come on the credit side, and I'm thinking my mindset was that okay, this is the other side of the economy where the funding happens. How do you fund um sectors, industries, companies? And those companies are families sometimes, you know. So then you're seeing the economy on the other side. Like, in fact, the monies you were collecting came from the sectors that are actually building the employment, the products, the solutions that the country needs. Um, and so I think what I learned from that is that you know, risk is such an important part of our daily lives anyway. Every day we step out of our own homes to go somewhere. We're already risking our lives, um, and we need to be protected, whether through insurance or whatever. But the decisions we make and the choices we don't make are all part of risk. And um, so putting it in that perspective for me made it, you know, more enjoyable to be in this space. Um, at first I was like, Kenya, you don't have to be here, honestly. You can go back and do what you're used to. Um but it reminds me of um, you know, one of my favorite Bible scriptures that talks about when Jesus calls um his disciples onto the boat to say, let's go to the other side. Um and they knew that it's probably challenging, they don't talk the same language that side. Um, but you needed to just trust the process. And I think I'm in my obedience season where I'm saying, you know what, to my minor God.

SPEAKER_05 24:23

Not Ramapasa, but definitely not Ramaposa. We're talking about God.

SPEAKER_04 24:30

Yeah, like just send me where I need to be. And and I think with age, I've realized that wherever I'm placed, it's not necessarily about the technical work that I get to do. My purpose is really to connect people and to connect um brands, and I know that from the instant I meet people. And sometimes I will know which okay, this person I've met, they're either for myself or for someone I haven't met or for someone in my network. And I realize that actually um sometimes it's just to show up as your best self.

SPEAKER_05 25:03

No, definitely, definitely. Who would you say are some of the instrumental people that played a pivotal role um, you know, in your career as we were climbing the corporate ladder? And um also I think it's important to us, especially as talking to aspiring um, you know, professionals, with leaders, for them to understand that you don't have to journey alone. There are people that are out there that are selfless with their time. Um, would you say you share that sentiment?

SPEAKER_04 25:34

I do. People play a very pivotal role in shaping our destinies. Um, even ourselves happen to be other people's destiny helpers, and that's why you can't not show up because you never know who might, you know, take up from your leaf. I've had many people support me in my journey, and you know, I'll speak of one lady who we were accidentally put into a mentorship program that was designed. Um, Dr. Elizabeth was white, is white, she's still alive. And I always felt in our engagements that she just did not understand my demographic and my, you know, because her solutions were kind of like, but you can do this, Moss, just do that and that. But it was because of my perspective of myself and where I came from that I didn't necessarily understand the advice she would give me. But what liberated me from our relationship was that I was stuck in a role that I didn't enjoy. And I spoke to her as an ex-girl, like because you sit in the ex-go panels, aren't you gonna speak to your mates? That's you know, your mentee is looking for something.

SPEAKER_05 26:47

I love that. So, girl, you were bold, you were audacious, you used your voice. I think that's what that's what's important. And also called confidence, being confident in what you have to offer, right? To say, you are here, you are my, you know, I'm your mate, I'm your mentee, you are my mentor, and please um do the things.

SPEAKER_04 27:06

And her answer was no. Which actually was a good thing for me. Because she was like, Oh, but you know where the economics department is, you can go, right? And I was like, okay, and then she resigned and left to work at an international organization. I was like, Shaqs, now I'm stuck. If I don't make this happen for myself, I I'm not going to leave this place. And I went. I I had the courage from somewhere, I don't know. Um, and guess what? They said yes. Just choose where you want to be. I was like, eh? Like I can't, like really. What do you mean? What do you mean? Because I took years to get to this point just to ask. To ask. Just to ask for help, right? And to think that you are going to get a yes. So I think we always agonize how badly it would go. But if we could just meditate on how great it would be. So what's the worst that can happen? It's a no. And and then what? Then what? Yes. Right? And probably they say when you get a no, it's because you asked the wrong person. So go find the right person. The right person for you. Yes. It's fine. Um, yeah, so that played a uh a role in now trusting myself and not someone else to make things happen for me. Um, but then I've also maintained relationships from my varsity years, and some of those people are industry leaders. Um, even my pivot from public sector to the private sector was because of a relationship I had with a friend that, you know, was like a brother to me. Um, and even now I have, in fact, from that, you know, exposure at that organization and and I met new people. Uh, and I always thought you can't meet new friends uh as you grow older, keep your own season.

SPEAKER_05 28:44

You're mentioning that offline, it's like who meets friends at 30? I'm like, new season requires new people. Yes, and and and and sometimes God is the one that sheds off peop off old people and then brings you new people for your new season. Absolutely. And without any nothing wrong, like I think we just have to embrace the process of life.

SPEAKER_04 29:03

I I absolutely agree, but I agonized, like I dealt on it. I'm like, God, how can you remove that person? Was I bad? And I think in my reflection was I hope they also got as much as I got from them so that at least we're equal in our in our loss. Um, but yeah, I I mean I look forward to you know what this space means now for me because you know, through my engagement, I met you and look at us now.

SPEAKER_05 29:30

Having a conversation, yeah, it is definitely a connection.

SPEAKER_04 29:33

So you're like, okay, for this season, this is what you need and this is where you need to be. Just be obedient with the process.

SPEAKER_05 29:39

And also remembering that people do business with people that they trust. Yeah. People don't do business with just anybody. You have to, you, you, you, we, they have to see your fruit. Yeah. And they have to trust that you can do it, you know. Um, so relationships are definitely, definitely very important. Now, talk to me about um uh APSIP, right? Women in Finance. What is it that you're doing as a deputy chairperson and what does your day or your month look like? Like what is it that you guys are busy with?

SPEAKER_04 30:08

So uh APSIP Woman in Focus now for Women in Finance is a passion project for me that also I found accidental. I DM'd someone, in fact, they invited me to speak at one of the panels, and I said, you know what, uh for the women's pillar, if you need me to write on any economic stuff, just let me know. I've got my hand up, I'll help you. And I I had DM'd the previous um president at the time before they called a chairperson, and immediately she put me on a WhatsApp group. I'm like, What's up group? Why am I on the WhatsApp group? What's up? It's like, okay, this is the AWF committee. I'm like, hey bo, first you will comment just like that. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 30:51

Uh but I had my importance of lifting your hands, of raising your hand, yeah, and showing up.

SPEAKER_04 30:56

And showing up. Um, and I will tell you, that has been an incredible race in terms of um service work, right? Um, I got into the space just thinking I'm gonna do some economic writing for them because that's also what I was passionate about at the time. Um, but it turned out I was going to shape the narrative for women in finance and have a focus on um activities that would help them advance in the male-dominated um industry. So, what we do at APSIP uh Women in Focus, which is chaired by um Mbali, we advocate for women progress and transformation and representation. Like I said, you get into a space, you don't see a lot of people like you, and the ones that are up there, they don't actually have the time. So we're looking for intentional women that want to lift as they rise. We provide world-class um development programs to help them have skill, as you know. Women want to take all the boxes before they, you know, put their hands up. So we've got um some learn learn uh learn learning programs, learning and development programs that we do for them. Um, that we've partnered with even the CFA, Safka. Um, Frankel Templeton was one of our partners before. So we try and have it like an international kind of leadership program, and hence we stepped into the G20 and Power Alliance work because we want women to monetize their skill, um, to have a focus on building industry because we know finance is the engine of the economy. The engine of the economy. So you want decisions to be made that are relevant for women. Because gone are those days where we say, hey, um, you know, these decisions don't work for us. We are in the boardrooms now, our voices have to shine. And I I mean, apart from that, we also do um skills development. Last year for Mandela Day, for example, we had a webinar for um young professionals and I say senior managers to learn how to interview because a lot of the feedback we would get was that women interview very poorly. Their CVs are stellar, but they get into the room, they are less confident, they can express. So, how do you help them? Um, so we ran something very beautiful there. Uh, our flagship event is our annual summit, and that's where we get all the women.

SPEAKER_05 33:22

I'm invited most this year. Of course. I guess we spoke about it last year. The deal is done.

SPEAKER_04 33:27

The deal came done. So, you know, women leaders, and and that gives even our younger professionals an opportunity to meet the likes of you and and learn from you firsthand, um, and also get personal um, you know, mentors or coaches. Sometimes you just need a space in terms of I'm going for an interview, they're gonna ask me about money, how do I respond? And you just give them uh, you know, an example of how they can approach it. Um, so our summit is always a flagship because it brings us the sponsors that partner with us, that believe in woman leadership, that believe in women empowerment within our space and also the initiatives that we have. Um then we have the technical staff, of course. Next week we'll be running, well, in February and in March, in sorry, in October, November, we run the national budget and the MTBPS. So we want, you know, women to engage the content that helps them make decisions as well. So understanding how the economy works, understanding where our finances as a national based ones. So you so you unpack the the budget speech. Yes. Wow, so that's that. Yeah. We bring in some experts. Um that means for me. Yes, but also as an ordinary person. As an ordinary person, as a business owner, as a professional, how do you apply what you've read or what you've heard into your day-to-day life? Um, so that it's not um too far-fetched for people to engage. Because ultimately, we don't do well, I love South Africa, right? So I want to be an active participant in my economy, um, not just through tax. You want to be able to help drive policy, and which is what women in focus and APSIP as a whole actually do, especially through for transformation.

SPEAKER_05 35:14

So, who are the women that you've um attracted? Um, do you do you have any programs where you attract like young women and teaching them about um you know financial literacy? And and and if that's the case, what does that look like? And how do people become part of this organization?

SPEAKER_04 35:32

So we have different um engagements, right, for different levels. Um, but our I think my personal experience is that you know you work in finance, but it doesn't mean you are good with your personal finances. So you want to, you know, learn from those around you. So we have uh an event called self-care, which happens annually. But the the whole point of uh our self-care event is for women to come have a vision board that is corporate-based, and that will help you. How are you gonna get into the roles that you want to test for the year or for the next three years or whatever your timeline is? Um, but also how are you going to get to negotiate for your performance, your appraisal, or even if it's a new job. Um, and then building networks. So we find a lot of women come to our events, and yes, it's exciting, you have interesting pictures, but do you really connect and have real relationships? So that's why we want our self-care program is designed to help women know that their legal side of the law. So knowing your law, also in terms of relationships, how you stand. Um, so we've had an event where we brought in a family lawyer who kind of showed us the risks of, you know, uh that are around relationships, that are around even property purchases, all those types of things that so that we have an understanding of what's out there. Um also for women to be confident when they step into any financial conversation for themselves, right? So you step in, you've got a financial advisor, you don't want them driving the conversation. You know what you want and what financial independence means for you. They must just help you get there with the knowledge that they have. And so you must be able to challenge some of the uh advisors that you get. Don't just, you know, take what they because sometimes um unfortunately they are commission-based and they will sell what will make them commission. So you want to be able to say, no, hang on, I don't think I need funeral policy when I have many other policies that are doing the same thing.

SPEAKER_05 37:39

And that's been a thing in the black community. I mean, with our mothers, you know they've got 10 funeral covers. We're like, what are you going to do with 10 funeral covers? Like, really? Funeral cover from here, from there, from there. I'm like, okay.

SPEAKER_04 37:52

Listen, I laughed at my mother when she said, you know, she's been saving since we were in primary school for us to go to varsity, and that money was not even close to 50,000. And like, baby.

SPEAKER_05 38:03

What have you been saving? What have you been saving? Ah, but it was good was good and enough to do that.

SPEAKER_04 38:07

It was good, and that taught me stuff, right? To say you must save for education. You must save.

SPEAKER_05 38:12

But how important is saving, uh, especially for women? Like, uh, of course, we're talking about um um, you know, the platform is for for all the genders, but how important is it for women to reach um financial independence?

SPEAKER_04 38:24

It is so important because financial independence for me normal gives you choice, right? I mean, I have uh I'm married, I have a husband who's very generous, but imagine if I had to wait for his generosity to get some stuff done for myself, right? At least make up near because sometimes they think about the big things only. And that's important to us, right? But sometimes you feel like you know what, actually, I want to try these lashes, like it's not in our budget. Like, I don't care.

SPEAKER_05 38:50

Okay, I just want to try the lashes, new hair, nails.

SPEAKER_04 38:55

Um, it gives you choice, it gives you confidence because now if you can choose where you want to stay, where you want to study, where you want to go, uh, and you can protect yourself because you can, you know, provide for your own security, you're able to stand up for yourself. Um, I met um Dr. Mazito, I hope I'm saying it correctly. Uh he wrote the book Um Boys Our Country Hates Our Boys, I think. Yes, yes, yes. And he taught me the term you must make um F of money. And that will give you opinion because you're not depending on someone else to find anything for you. You've raised your your own, you've created and built your own wealth, and you can actually have an opinion. Do you know how many people don't have opinion? And you're told what to do, where to go, what time, and when to get back. And that's not freedom. It's not freedom. So I think financial independence, whatever it means for you, you need to pursue it because then you can, you know. And for women, I think it's important because we are the largest consumers globally, right? So when you have that, um, you need to also think about ownership. I like to say we are the biggest retail investors, although on the other side, right? We do our expenditure on the side, but we should actually think about what's in our cupboard, what's in our fridge, what are these brands that we're always buying?

SPEAKER_05 40:17

And you spoke about this profoundly, um, I think offline about look at the brands that are in your in your cupboards, like in your wardrobe, the shoes you wear and the things that you like. Why can't you invest in them? Yeah. Talk us through that. Uh, like how does one go about having shares, um, LV shares? Louis Vuitton.

SPEAKER_04 40:38

Um, and I think uh, you know, with technology these days, they've made it so much easier for us to access right to the information. And there's so many platforms, um, examples like for easy equities or thrive.

SPEAKER_05 40:49

Easy equity. I just came across easy equity. I was like, hmm, this is interesting. So I'm starting to read about it, to understand it, and also I just want to test myself.

SPEAKER_04 40:58

Yes, test. They even have a demo, they give you demo hundred thousand there, even USD for you to check. Um, but just now be conscious about okay, I am consuming this brand. Do I have shares for it? And it's everything because every company that's listed is an opportunity. And then on the alternative investment side, you want to look at art. You love art, you probably have you know an artist that that you always buy from. Why not invest in their business and have something that comes back to you as well, right? Or if you have love for fashion and design, those are the kind of things that you can think of, or even cars. Literally, we are taught to just only think one way, put it in a 32-day account um and keep it there for inflation to eat. But you want to build wealth, so you need to explore um avenues that are accessible, but also teach ourselves, like a normal for me.

SPEAKER_05 41:57

And I think langu the the language of money, sorry to cut you, um, Kanyesa. The language of money becomes an inferior tool in the black communities. I am not sure because I am not sure if it's because um of the fact that we we uh our parents had to preserve money in order to make a living, right? Um, in one way or the other, right? Um I don't think they had opportunities to save and and you know, um the way that we've got so many platforms that we can access. Um so I think the concept of money, um, we need to demystify the the myth around money and the fear around money and just make money our best friend, right? In one way or the other, so that we can we can see how best we can leverage money.

SPEAKER_04 42:40

Absolutely, because it is essentially just a tool, right? Yeah and it's in the value that you put in in that tool that makes sense. Uh, I think for me, what will make me feel like the work I'm doing has made an impact is to see people talk about money the same way we talk about maybe even sex, um, or the way we talk about recipes, the way we exchange memes and you're exchanging a share and saying, friend, have you bought this? Or friend, did you see how well the the top 40 did on the JSE this year? Um, what are you investing in this year? Taking trips where we can say, actually, we're building our investment portfolios and we are confident in what we have in there and it's things that we believe in, right? Um and I think on the other side, you know, with the example of our parents, the ability to save was always communal, right? So they'd have stock fills, uh, and they were really good with the stock fills, particularly for food stuff. I think the problem came when they had to actually have stockfills to build stuff. Um for me, I feel like we have the capacity to have a communal and the know how, but if we had the understanding and a long term vision and trust would actually, you know, go beyond saving just for consumers. Goods and starting investing in saying a land. There's a lady from my church who shared some interesting um feedback with me a few weeks ago, and she says her parents stay in a town in Zimbabwe, and it's really like a retirement kind of village, not even village, like a town, right? And they self-funded, these retirees self-funded the water, the sewage system, the electricity through their own savings. They build it themselves and they're like they're not waiting for government to do stuff. If we could have that kind of wealth, those are the kind of problems we would, you know, solve. Instead of pursuing always uh personal wealth, personal wealth is great. I mean, by having personal wealth, you can be a generous giver. But getting into a collective thinking of we can do this ourselves, we don't need, you know, government. Yeah, we don't need to wait that long before things happen to happen.

SPEAKER_05 44:59

Yeah, we can actually make things happen. What are your top three tips, right, that you would give to an aspiring C-suite leader or someone who wants to get to the spaces that you've already tapped into and we're exposed to. What are the three top tips um that you can give to someone at home?

SPEAKER_04 45:17

I think the first thing is to upskill, right? All of us come with the same qualification, the same background, uh, if not a little bit different, right? So setting yourself apart from and and what helps with that is understanding where you come from and being confident about your life not being a mistake. You were born where you were needed to be born to enter a space such as that. So not being afraid of what you bring, right? Um and I know some people will say you need to assimilate before you can be authentic, but I think it's that authenticity that sets us apart. So if you can be excellent at what you do, people can't ignore you. Then the second thing is to build the right relationships. My vision last year was I wanted to build on the kind of relationships I had. Like I've got a massive network, but I wanted also problem solvers in my network. I wanted to be able to say, Noma, there's kids who need a clinic. There's a village that doesn't have what are we doing about it? If someone says they need a bursary and I'm able to say, actually, I know my company's giving out. So, and you can make those decisions for people to solve real life problems, right? Um, so build the right networks and have quality people in your circle. And when you have monetized your skill, which is my third point, monetize that skill. We are living in an age where the future of work has changed. So you don't necessarily have to give your skill to one organization for the rest of your life. You can diversify. Remember, when we do our degrees, we learn so many modules. So it means we have many skills. Skills. Yes, in our bucket. Something you can tap into and just monetize and build wealth from that.

SPEAKER_05 46:59

Yeah. Those are my thank you so much. You see, uh, my producer there is uh conversation and reminding me of time in this beautiful conversation that we are having. But to round the conversation off, I just want to talk about legacy and what what uh what what that what does that look like for you and what also do you want to be remembered for? Like, I mean, when I walk out of here, what do you want Norma to remember you for? Um, and as you navigate um life. I mean, you're still young, you still have many years ahead of you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:32

I you know, I think about my vision as um, because I'm I'm the other side of the economics, right? I believe in utopia. If people are given a chance to be the best sales, then no one is trying to be the same as you or the same as Bill Gates. People just want to thrive in their own space, right? If people can be given the opportunity to live in a society that gives them that um education, that you know, facilities, that for me, through my advocacy work, helping people trust their own skill. My grandmother used to say, um, Canisa, these hands have cleaned many homes, but these hands have sparkled and shined places. Girl, every time I walked into a house or a place of work, they would even call me to train people. That's how great I was. And I had to realize that actually it's not far-fetched. My hands are my brain, and that's what you know, corporates pay me for, the insights that I can generate. And I need to be able to, you know, impart that. I really believe that um, you know, in the world that we live live in, um, having gender parity, it's not necessarily about putting us on an equal footing, getting paid the same, but women having the confidence to step into any place, know and trust their own self and be led by the Holy Spirit to thrive. Because I believe our lives are not our own. So if my legacy can be when women experience me or people in general experience me, they can tap into their greatness and become the full version of what God's purpose for their lives is.

SPEAKER_05 49:10

Ah, thank you so much for that beautiful conversation. Um, and I want to wish you all the best in your journey as you climb the corporate ladder, as you um, you know, you you are in the spaces that you are in, may your voice never tire. And um, right, I like I don't know what to say. It's just been an awesome conversation. Thank you so much to our listeners and um the people that are watching, the viewers, um, until we see each other again. Um, thank you. Wow. Where were that questions? Uh you see thank you for listening and thank you for tuning in. So, we are available on the podcast, Apple Podcasts, or any other streaming podcast. Please do comment, subscribe on both the podcast as well as our YouTube channel, which is Africa Rising Leadership. Until we see you again next time. Thank you.