How AI Intersects with Leadership & Entrepreneurship with Kutlwano Ngwarati

Artificial Intelligence is reshaping how organisations lead, innovate and make decisions.

In this Season Finale of Africa Rising Leadership Conversations, Nomazibulo Tshanga speaks with Kutlwano Ngwarati, Founder & CEO of High Risers and Managing Partner at NK Intel, about the intersection of AI, leadership and entrepreneurship.

From her early career in enterprise systems to building AI businesses, Kutlwano shares practical insights on AI governance, ethical leadership, workforce readiness and the opportunities that exist for African organisations to lead in an AI-driven future.

If you’re a leader, entrepreneur or professional preparing for what’s next, this conversation will challenge your thinking and equip you to lead with purpose in the age of AI.

Thank you for joining us for Season One of Africa Rising Leadership Conversations. The conversation continues in our next season.

https://www.instagram.com/leaders_conversation

www.africarisingleadership.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

You are such a brilliant woman. I mean, I've engaged with you. And all your conversations, you are left intellectually challenged.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

And when I was in the mines, you know, a lot of things would break. And I'd always ask myself, but why? Like with all the data that we have, why is the equipment breaking? Why are we so reactive? And so that then led into a path of curiosity. And I've always been some of this curious. But then started looking at online courses, starting to understand data science, all of that. And that then led into the world of data and AI and so forth. But I really honestly believe that we need to take space, right? And we really need to challenge ourselves to do the hard things.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

And if not who, who?

SPEAKER_02 0:48

Exactly, if not me, and why not me? And why not now? And why not engage in those conversations? There's the hierarchy, and then there's the influences and powers behind the hierarchy. You have to understand who's playing golf with who and who actually makes the actual decisions. So I really started to not only understand the patterns in terms of optimizations, engineering, and all of that, but I started to understand and recognize. So I mean the biggest thing is that there's a misconception that AI is a technology conversation. And it's really not. It's really around decision structuring and ownership. Because as you implement all these AI into your ecosystem, you also need to understand that Noma is the key decision person. Because when regulators and compliance come, you need to be able to say, yes, I approve this AI model based on this. And so how I support leaders is making sure that they understand.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

Africa Rise today. Today I am not alone. As usual, I've got an exceptional woman that is doing amazing work in the digital and AI space. Her name is Gutwa Nongwarati, and she is the founder and CEO of High Risers. She also works in corporate, but she's gonna tell us all about it. And really, the reason for the conversation today is to um, you know, just to go through your journey, right? Unpack your journey in terms of um where did it start, where did the love for AI start? I mean, you're doing amazing work in the spaces and the platforms that you are trusted with, um, and with your company as well, high risers. And I've seen something, I think it's a new entity that is coming in, which I can't wait um to dwell um deeper into that. I mean, we we are in an era of digitization, AI, right? Um, and we need to be equipped to understand as leaders um what is this AI? Is it here to take our jobs or is it um something that is there to enable us as leaders to make efficient and effective decisions? So we're gonna hear all about that. But before we get into that, um just some teasers, right? Um to get us um started. What were you listening to coming here? Whether radio music.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

I actually was listening to the song called I Speak Jesus. Uh, and it really came from on Sunday, it was the worship song that they sang for for for a big bulk of the service, and you know that name Jesus really opens so many doors. And so as I was just driving, I was just thanking God first firstly for the invitation to be in the spaces. Yes, we do do brilliant work, but it's not the work that opens the doors, it really is stems down to grace, yeah. Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

Um, heels or sneakers?

SPEAKER_02 3:46

Sneakers any day, I just happen to be wearing heels, um, but I'm always in Converse, Air Force ones, um, definitely a suits and sneakers.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Suits and sneakers. And I always, I know you suits, you are always and your suits are always on point again. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Love that. Um, boosh or beach?

SPEAKER_02 4:07

Beach, any day, any day, any day, beach, any day. I love just waking up in the ocean. In fact, I recently took my mom on a trip, um, MC Cruise, and we would wake up at five. We got the balcony, one of the balcony cabins, and we'd wake up at five and just look at the sunset. And you just there's so much peace in in being in the ocean, so I absolutely love it. And then, of course, there's the trips where you actually go to the actual beach with the kids and so forth, and yeah, it's it's it's it's just amazing. And I think it's it's a moment of reflection for me to just remind myself that in in in the entire universe I'm a I'm a speck, an important speck in the in in the Lord's eyes, but still a speck.

SPEAKER_01 4:47

A tiny speck in the universe, but a big speck in God's eyes. Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 4:51

So just those moments of reflection. So I absolutely love being in the ocean. Any opportunity to be at the beach, I I take, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

You are such a brilliant uh woman. I mean, I've engaged with you, and all your conversations, you you are left intellectually challenged when I engage with you. You may not know it, but I I I am telling you now. Um, what's the book that you're currently reading?

SPEAKER_02 5:14

I'm currently reading uh Tony Blair on leadership. Um, and I think, you know, because I have such technical conversations, I always need to build the acumen to make sure that I bridge the gap and I make sure that I'm speaking business, finance, storytelling, and make sure that what I am saying lands um with different people. So I'm always in some AI course, definitely, or reading some technical book, but over and above that I lay that with leadership, storytelling, finances, to make sure that I have a grounded view of the world.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

And it's such a privilege to to be sitting with, it's actually our first time um on the podcast, sitting with someone that's so technical as you, um, and that that like um strictly speaks on on AI is an expert um expert on AI. So I I I just love that. And the person is a woman. So we we we feel privileged to have you on board.

SPEAKER_02 6:06

Yes, no, thank you. And I mean, you know, when when I was entering into the space, before I entered into the space, just some breakground. I studied industrial engineering, and when I was in the mines, you know, a lot of things would break. And I'd always ask myself, but why? Like with all the data that we have, why is the equipment breaking? Why are we so reactive? And so that then led into a path of curiosity. And I've always been some of this curious, but then started looking at online courses, starting to understand data science, all of that, and that then led into the world of data and AI and so forth. Um, and and and that's just been you know the the journey that that has really, really brought me here. And so in the spaces that I find myself in, yes, I'm often, you know, the only woman, sometimes I'm the only black um person in the black woman as well. Um, and people say, Don't you find it intimidating, unfair? But I really honestly believe that we need to take space, right? And we really need to challenge ourselves to do the hard things.

SPEAKER_00 7:06

And if not you, who?

SPEAKER_02 7:07

Exactly, if not me, and why not me? And why not now? And and why not engage in those conversations? And sometimes, you know, I'll find myself in in spaces again where I'm the only woman, only black woman, and you'll feel like, but why am I on this panel? Why did they invite me last minute? There's always those unfairness and biases that come with with this, but it's so important that you position yourself and that you choose to do the hard work, right? And I have to do 10 times more to show up in those spaces. And I I don't take it as a as a fault because I always always when I'm in different spaces, I want to understand what's the job to be done. Sometimes I'm invited, yes, it's an AI conversation, but the job to be done is sometimes black excellence. And so how I show up in those spaces demonstrating that I'm a person in package really changes certain narratives, and you understand someone that's actually didn't agree for you to be there is like that was absolutely brilliant. Can you come and join us at the next engagement? Yeah. Then it becomes a word of mouth, and it it does, it does. But I actually, absolutely love the reflection of you leave me intellectually stimulated. I actually, yeah, I love that feedback, and I'm gonna take that with me in the certain conversations. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:18

Um before we delve deeper into the work that you do today and the influences that you have around AI and leadership, which is something that it's very important um in today and and moving forward, um, you know, beyond 2026. Let's talk about the girl. I mean, um the girl um Ugutruano. Who is Gutruano before AI, right? And and where did Kutwano, um, uh, where was Gutruano raised and and what type of childhood um influences or or um values impacted or influenced you?

SPEAKER_02 8:47

So I was born in Sebuking. I was raised by a single mom. She later got married to my stepfather, who I absolutely love. Um but my parents absolutely big amazing, amazing, amazing man, and he's really instilled even more values. But I do want to speak around the formative years, right? So my parents divorced when I was 13, and then she got remarried when I was 19. So a lot was was embedded during that that period of time. But the one thing that my mom taught me was you know, the world is your oyster, and if you work hard, you will achieve it. And I and I believed her. I really, really did believe her. And so growing up, it was just me and my sister, and I was always in top three from primary all the way to high school. I did drop the ball in grade 19.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

Uh the adjustment, the adjustment. You were coming into like young adulthoods, you know, so it's a lot of hormones. Yeah, it's a good thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

Um, but in grade 11, I was like, yo, uh-uh, I'm not gonna be able to get to university. So picked up my socks and then I got a got a bursary. Um, but definitely was at church every Sunday, so that also instilled that belief. And just also seeing that as I put in the work, the results, right? As I put in the work, the results. But I was also very, very curious. So I wanted to understand, like, why does the toilet flush this way? Is there another is there another way um I would ask myself, you know, questions around, okay, but why does this neighbor drive this car? So I was interested in the outcomes, but I also wanted to understand the structure behind the you know, what's the inputs? Okay, okay, so this dad is a lawyer. Okay, we we at the time we don't have a dad, so it's only mom. So this is where this is why where we stay, what are those different options as well, right? Nuances. And I also understood without you know burdening my mom, I also understood I could play one or two sports and not the entire spectrum because it's uniform and all of that. And so you start starting to adjust and understand um those different nuances. But the also another thing that I got at a young age was just independence, right? Which has its strengths and shadows. Um, but that independence really instilled in me that if it's to be, it's up to me. And and and really, whenever I wanted to achieve something or go for it, again, it was the why me, why not now? And I would just really put my best foot forward and and and take up whatever challenge that was. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

Um, of course, getting into engineering, you must have studied science, right? Um so uh in my high school, we had um, oh, they used to classify us, right? We had an A class. Yes, an A class was a science class. Maths and Science, and then we had a B class. Our B class was accounting and maths. And then the rest, we used to call them the rest, right? I was fortunate. I tasted the A class, but I I eventually went into the B class. Okay. Um so you were in A class, right? Um Maths and Science. What led you to choose? Because I mean, it's so difficult, even today. I mean, um we we're seeing a lot of um drop when it comes to um learners um taking maths, you know, that the uptake is just um uh reducing um year in and year out. And we're not producing high-quality maths um student um the way we we used to or the way we should. So, what led you to the curiosity and and and following that stream?

SPEAKER_02 12:00

So, you know, um I've always been a person that wants to do hard things. Um, and and that also led to the decision later on of studying engineering, right? But I always was like, but why is everyone going into accounting and and and going into tourism and going into hospital why why are we not doing maths? Why are we not doing science? And then I also also always believe that I don't want to hear by someone else that it's difficult. I need to go in there and then decide for myself is it difficult or not, and I will make that decision. So again, it comes to the the the conversation of independence, and my mom really wasn't a person to influence either of our decisions. Yeah, so my sister um she did maths but she didn't do science. She had the she gave us that opportunity to choose for ourselves what you want to do, and I even chose my high school as well. So she really gave a lot of freedom. Yes, she gave us a lot of freedom, and I would just research that okay, why is everyone going left when this this is right? And and one of my favorite quotes is you know, take the road less traveled. That's it. Take the road less traveled.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

I believe I'm exactly like that. Yes. I like to go where people are not going because I want to test what is it that you're base? Making people not to go. Yes, so I'm very curious by nature. Right, love that. Yeah. Um, now you um you study engineering. Um, any challenges around um while you were in university studying engineering? Any challenges that we had experienced there?

SPEAKER_02 13:22

So studied when I entered, I studied mechanical engineering. Um, first year I did just barely okay, pass. Second year failed, and I took a knock. And absolutely. Which one of failing? No ways, no way. It was, it was, yeah, it was, yeah, it felt like the world had come to a standstill. But it also taught me how to how to rise up after failure, right? And and in that moment, I mean you always have the small failures, this subject you didn't do so well, and then you pick it up. That one was a year of failed. And so everyone's looking at you like, ha, our golden child, what happens now? Um, but third year then picked up and fourth year and then finally graduated and then joined one of the university, uh, one of the mining and companies that then paid for for my studies. But you know, university was hard because I did put in the effort in in second year, but it was just around conceptually understanding. Because you you go into exam to regurg regurgitate information, and that's not good enough. And you start understanding that you need to be able to connect and understanding and be able to connect the dots. And you also need to read a world of information to be able, when they're asking you, but actually what does this concept mean and how do you apply it in real life? Um, what does that actually mean? And it was also an interesting world because in in um high school, yes, I engaged with some of you know the the the white students, black students, but in university you meet Indians, colours, all of that, and you start understanding the beauty of privilege. That someone comes into engineering, but their dad also is a mechanic, and so they have the the depth of knowledge, the backing to understand, okay, when whilst I'm reading this in this in this textbook, this is what it means. Um, and those conversations then also help me open up to the world. And I was really that's where I picked up also the love of reading, you know, across a variety of different disciplines to be able to connect the dots through through through different materials. So university really, really was a gift, and and that moment of failure um instilled with me that you can rise up after after.

SPEAKER_01 15:23

And we don't often talk about that as leaders, right? We don't we don't like to talk about failure, but I think um would it not have been for failure, we would probably not be where we are today. And you probably would not be where you are today. You were shaped, I mean, your experiences around the failures, the successes. Yes. So we must embrace um everything that life has to offer us. And I think the test there, the character test is how to you rise up right to the situation. Yes, yes. Now you are in corporate. A different ball game altogether. I was in corporate, so I know exactly what that looks like. But what did that look like for you? Was it presented in a way that you had imagined? Because I mean, uh when I was in in Mentre going into varsity, I used to watch these um, you know, um, like suits and and all those series that that presented corporate, you know, and and you had a you created your own narrative around what corporate looks like and what you are going to do when you get there. I mean, I thought I'm gonna get in, I'm gonna be an HR manager, and I'm gonna be leading people, I'm gonna be, you know, strategic. Yes. But now I'm getting there, I'm like, I'm printing papers, I'm doing administration. What is happening? And the dynamic is totally different from from from the world as I as as I knew it. Yes. Um, so what did that um experience teach you and what was it as you had imagined?

SPEAKER_02 16:40

No, it was it was absolutely completely different. Um, so the nice thing was that you know I entered a bursary program and we we were almost treated like you know the babies, right? And you're given grace to learn and and those type of things. But what I didn't understand is that you you sometimes hop into narratives that you didn't form. So number one was previous engineers really had a had a air about themselves versus the supervisors that have been at the mines for a long time. So when I stepped into certain spaces, they just assumed that I would have an air about myself, and I'd be like, no, like I, Dumelang, I'm here to learn, I want to understand. So they're like, oh no, actually, she's really humble. So understanding that. And then another key thing around being in the mining space is there's the hierarchy, and then there's the influences and powers behind the hierarchy. And if you just learn the hierarchy in the system, it's not enough. No, it's not. No, it's not. You have to understand who's playing golf with who and who actually makes the actual decisions. So I really started to not only understand the patterns in terms of optimizations, engineering, all of that, but I started to understand and recognize patterns in certain rooms and in people. And when I'd speak, I'd see this is not lending. So if I come in with this narrative, perhaps this project can be approved. So that was some of the learnings that I had to had to really learn in in corporate. But yeah, it's been an interesting game.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

Interesting, interesting, interesting game. And what would you advise? I mean, um, young and aspiring Siswit leaders that want to climb the corporate ladder. What should they be looking out for in corporate? I mean, um, I know, like you said, when you are in varsity, you've got this narrative, you've got this beautiful picture. But when you get to corporate, you're then actually faced with realities of corporate. Yes. Um, what does that look like? And how can you advise, you know, young, aspiring Siswit leaders to then navigate um corporate?

SPEAKER_02 18:27

So for me, you know, I think there's this power in technical depth. So choose, and I'm I'm not saying to everyone go and do AI, right? But choose your depth. And this could be an accounting, medicine.

SPEAKER_01 18:40

We can't just pass through that. Choose your depth. Yes. Choose your depth. I mean, you you may not have depth in everything. Yes, you may have an understanding of everything and how to connect the dots holistically. Yes, but there must be something that you are known for. You must put your signature on something. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 18:55

Yes, yes. So that's the first thing. Choose your depth, and then to your point around, overlay that with um storytelling, communication, leadership, and so forth. So I always tell people that when whatever you you choose to do in corporate or in studies, it's an and conversation. Because so much of us will choose. No, I I'm not gonna look at um numbers and finance because I'm an engineer or I'm in AI, but it's very, very important that you understand the numbers so that when you engage with someone with the numbers, you can have a conversation. Because I've also learned that it's really, really around relationships. Relationships run the world. I've heard the code money runs the world, but it's actually relationships. And so my advice is really to choose your depth and then really invest in getting a whole uh a whole bunch of skills so that you you almost give yourself a competitive edge wherever you go because it's the people that are able to have in-depth conversations, but also human conversations that are able to stand out.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

Love that. Now you are an engineer, right? Yeah, I'm I'm um I'm picturing uh I'm picturing you entering the workplace, becoming an engineer, and always wanted to be an engineer. Yes. Now we see you as an AI guru. Now, where is that coming from? Because engineering, I maybe if you had studied IT, I would have understood. You know what I mean? Yes. But I mean now you are studying mechanical engineering, right? You get into corporate with your mechanical engineering background. I'm sure you were a graduate in mechanical engineering.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

I graduated in industrial and pivoted, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

Um so how do you now come across AI and why the interest and the love for AI?

SPEAKER_02 20:27

Yeah. So when I was at the mines as an industrial engineer, I was very much involved in optimization. And for me, when I was speaking to a supervisor, I'd be like, every time equipment fails, then we go look for the spare pads. But I'm like, this mine has been operating for 20 years. Why don't we have the data to say in the next seven years it's about to fail? So it was those type of questions and no one could give me the answer. Just be like, no, but this is how we've always been doing it. But I'm like, no, there's a this there must be a better way. There must be a better way. And so it's that curiosity that then led me to study self-study through Coisera.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

Self-study. I thought it was important. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 21:00

Self-study through Cousera, Udemy. Then I started looking at data science, patents, um, those types of courses. And then I bumped into an opportunity where RMB was funding people that want to go study data science. So with my manager, I was like, I'm gonna go do this for a year and I'll come back. We agreed. Then when I was at there go the studying data science with people that are deeply technical, curious, the world just expands. I was like, no, I'm not going there.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

No, I'm I'm getting it.

SPEAKER_02 21:28

I'm going deeper into this. And from there on, moved into you know the financial services, moved into SAB, moved into Lombard Insurance. So now that's how you are in unexpected. No, I mean in data. And then as AI evolved, I moved into AI and was just really around again to self study. If you look at all my qualifications, engineering is MBA, and then it's a whole suite of self study courses, DA. Yes, yes. And I always say to people, yes, you if you want to do computer science, you're most welcome to. But we live in a world where Information is available. Yes. Information is accessible. Exactly. It's when I engage with you um that I can see no actually you have depth in in in the subject. Um and it can only come from a conversation. Yes. Yes. And so I always encourage people that if you want to study AI, just get one of the courses. Information is absolutely in abundance, but it's really around judgment. It's around the the the nuances that then come and then that's how you um And I love the fact that we didn't stick to um, you know, I'm an engineer.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

I'm an engineer. I mean I've worked with engineers before, right? Um, where you know they are hardcore engineers. I'm an engineer, I don't want to be anything else, I don't like to deal with people, I don't like to deal with numbers. Give me a problem. I want to identify problems, I want to solve problems. That's uh I'm process driven, etc. I love the fact that you opened your world, right, to learning more about everything else that's around you. And also what connects this engineering that you are busy claiming that you are an anchor on, you know? Um so I think that's a beautiful story. Now you are doing AI work, right? What is AI and what is data science? Okay, like just unpack it so that everyone, even a graduate, can understand what AI is. Because I think we've got we've seen a lot of definitions around what AI is, and there is a lot of hype around AI. So if you were to quantify it in a more practical way, that even anyone, a lay person, can understand what you're talking about. All right.

SPEAKER_02 23:30

So, you know, AI has many layers and and there's a full spectrum, but I'm gonna start with traditional AI. So traditional traditional AI has actually been in existence for a really long time, and it's really around if you get an SMS from your bank around suspicious activity, that's AI. Right? Um when your bank decides we're either going to give you a loan or not, again, that's AI in happening in the background. And the difference between that traditional AI and data science is data science looks as predictive AI. So now we're looking at in basic terms, you know, the weather forecast. So you're looking at previous patterns to see Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday was sunny. We predict that Friday is also going to be sunny. So that's um around data science, and they used use it across various um industries in banking, financial services, as well as in manufacturing as well, when they're trying to determine soil quality. But then as the spectrum moves up, we also look at um agentic AI. And agentic AI is where, yes, in in normal AI, it's if Y happens, do X. With a gentic AI is if Y happens, do X, but uh um additional action is taken with that. And that's where now you need to look at things like human in the loop, right? Because especially when you're looking at big deals, right? Some of some of the banks use um AI modeling in order to determine whether we're going to invest in this power plant or not. So really, really big infrastructure, and that's where you need not the system decided, but the system recommends and advises, and then the leader is the one that decides we are going to take that decision. And then as we move on, we go into multi-agent AIs, and here again is the AI that um AI makes a decision and then it actions that, and that um multi-agent AI will take the decision from this a specific AI and make further informed decisions based on the data from this. So, and and and as you increase those different levels, you need governance, right? So, when I use some of you know some of these technologies, and recently I created um um um um mentorship platform, right, for for for one of the the leaders in South Africa. I know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah, I loved it. And and but you can hear the dialect that when it says on Duminga or it says on Jani, it's not it's not there because the technology is informed by English, um, the African dialect still needs to be there. And that's why I always encourage people to join these AI conversations because the governance and biases really increase as the layers increase. I mean, if if you go to some of the airports, when they look at the faces, because you don't have um Caucasian features, you now have to follow the long queue because you know uh uh a black person wasn't part of the conversations or part of the the coding in in those AI different streams. So AI is quite broad, but as and as you move through the different layers, the governance also becomes very important. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:13

Love it. Um so you are in corporate, yes. You are running your own business. Yes. Like, how does that happen? And where do you get the time? So tell us what is it that you are doing in corporate um in one of the biggest mining um companies? Yes. And um also founder and CEO of High Riser and another platform that I just saw that you need to tell me about. So, what is it that you are doing in corporate and why did you feel the need to start your own thing and not contribute in corporate? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:44

So, in in in corporate, um, I'm head of AI and intelligent automation, and it's very, very specific to making sure that we find solutions for for for the organization that I work with. But being in some of those conversations, I understood that AI is really accelerating quite quickly. And so, how do I take advantage of what's happening in the ecosystem? And so, with high risers, what we do is we really work with SMEs, and we do also work with enterprise.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

I'm still waiting for an invite. Norma, please, yeah. I'm still waiting. I've been hinting.

SPEAKER_02 27:18

No, definitely we'll come. And so that's um what high rises does. So we work with um SMEs and well as well as enterprises, but with SMEs, it's quite it's quite exciting because there's less red tape, right? So you get a lot more in terms of testing, POVs, experimentation that happens in the ecosystem. And then with the corporate houses um or enterprises that we work with, we're really working with some of the big names. So you're working with the Microsoft applications, and then you're trying to see how do we build a genetic AI in that. So that's the two different streams, and then over and above that also work with governments as well, sitting on the national AI board trying to define South Africa's national AI strategy. So that's some of the conversations that that I find myself in. And and and you know, doing both is is is challenging. I mean, I have to wake up at four to to do both, but there's still space. There's still space for me to do both.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

And I'm one of those people that reminds us that we've got 24 hours in a day. Right? And how do you then utilize the 24 hours to distinguish the outcomes? Yes, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 28:18

And and and I mean just understanding what's happening in the ecosystem, right? And I was like, no, I have to be part of these conversations. And I and the vision really pulls you once you have conviction. And again, to your point around doing hard things. I also understood, you know, because you incorporate you can do things within Godrails, and so that that desire to experiment, um, that deep curiosity could only be fulfilled again with high rises. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:42

What should leaders be looking out for um in 2026 and beyond when it comes to AI and data um analytics? What what what what is it that we should be looking out for? And um, how do you then support leaders in that space?

SPEAKER_02 28:54

So, I mean the the biggest thing is that there's a misconception that AI is a technology conversation. And it's really not, it's really around decision structuring and ownership. Because as you implement all these AI into your ecosystem, you also need to understand that NOMA is the key decision person because when regulators and compliance come, you need to be able to say, Yes, I approve this AI model based on this. And so how I support leaders is making sure that they understand the coding behind the code, what's the explainability and and and transferring that knowledge so that you're able that when you're sitting in the boardroom or when you're sitting in front of compliance regulatory or government, because some of these decisions, you know, contribute to safety, to cost, to national stability, and you just need to be in a position where you're confident enough that as I implement this AI into my space, this is what it means. Um, and so that's how I support different leaders, and then also around um boldness, you know, that that that building that appetite to try um uh across different tools and technologies, because I always believe that yes, there's this this there's um you know wisdom in being a fast follower, but there's also wisdom in being a leader. And so, how do we make sure that we lead in some of these conversations as as AI takes up space in the world? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:08

To someone that is in corporate or um as an entrepreneur and that is fearing AI, right? What advice would you give to them? Um because I mean, let's be honest, um, we've got a high um uh level of unemployment in South Africa. Yes. And then um we are now having and hearing about this AI is gonna take out jobs. So there's a lot of um inferiority um that is around people, around embracing um AI. So, how do we then equip leaders in order for them to equip their um you know the rest of the stuff within the office, or how do we ensure that even the employees embrace um um AI that is introduced within their organizations?

SPEAKER_02 30:46

So, you know, AI can be used both as a productivity tool um in order to enhance that, you know, enhance some of the work that you do, especially around manual repetitive work, and then you can engage in more the strategic conversations. And you know, when I look at the the eras of time, Tom Ford introduced the car, but there were people that were driving the horses, those people then learned how to drive a car. And so we need to be able to learn how to work together with machines, so it's more around moving towards a human AI era. Um, it of course, with anything new, there is you know questions around stability. Should I, is it safe and all of that? But I really, really encourage people to learn because it's not going anywhere. In fact, it's moving and accelerating. And so it's really an awesome opportunity for you to choose back to the question around depth, but also overlaying that with AI, to be like, how do I give myself a competitive advantage in the world that's continuously evolving? So that's that's currently where we are with AI. There is also a lot of risk. So, in terms of policy, um, you know, a lot of the the models and the AI that we use rely on leaders and their own moral ethics, right, principles. But then as policy comes, that regulation will then come in. And so as people also educate themselves around AI, you can be part of the conversations to be like, yes, we understand that this model can do the following, but we're not comfortable, and these are the reasons why. Because I think what what people often take for granted with some of these tools is that yes, we have the headline that we've implemented this AI, but reputation takes so much supersedes everything. And yes, um, trust the site, the the technology cycles are much um faster, but trust cycles take a long time. And so even as you think around, I'm going to implement this business this in my business, you also need to be able to have those conversations of this is why we're implementing it, this is the impact we needed to have, this is the ROI and so forth.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

Yeah, yeah, I think ROI is critical as well as business owners. Yes. You want to invest in something that you're not gonna see the returns. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so you're a mother and you're a wife. Yes. Um, you're a friend, you're juggling all these balls. You wake up at four, um, you you've got a full-on eight-hour corporate job. Yes. And sometimes it's not even eight hours because you are ahead of the department. Yes. So sometimes it can be like uh 10, 12 hours, right? Yeah. And then you are running your own business and you are sitting in these advisory committees and all these things. How do you find the time and how do you juggle all of these balls?

SPEAKER_02 33:13

Yeah, I mean, it's it's I always get this question, and it's such a hard, hard, hard ask to explain because the days move on and everyone looks fine.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

Yeah, yeah, everything is intact.

SPEAKER_02 33:26

Everything's intact, right? Everybody's dying. Yes. But how I manage it is really around seasons. So if if if if if something's happening at my daughter's school, I'll prioritize that, regardless of work, regardless of high rises. And it's really around being present for those really important moments. Um, I haven't always been great at it, right?

SPEAKER_01 33:44

And maybe we're not going to be great at it all the time.

SPEAKER_02 33:47

Yes, yes. But it's really um understanding, but it's also around, you know, as I say, understanding, it's also around sitting them down and explaining that this is important to me. Mommy wants to achieve the following goals. And I've had those conversations with my daughters, but I've also had those conversations with my husband, and he's fully supportive that you know what, to your point, the world is your oyster, go for it, right? There are some moments where because I'll be traveling um, you know, to some of the conferences and some of the engagements where I won't be home for for a period of time, but I've also been intentional around creating a support structure. So I have full-time nanny, I have an au-pair to make sure the kids are picked up on time, and then there's also the homeworks and all of that. But in those critical moments, I make sure I show up as a mom, as as also a wife, and then showing up in in the workspaces as well as in high-rises. And in high-rises, we've been able to complement what we do by working with several consultants as well. And of course, there's some engagements that we want, and then I have to show up, you know. Um, but there's also those some engagements where you're there for the initial sitting and then um your partners can continue some of that work. So it's really around balance and flow as we move through the different seasons.

SPEAKER_01 34:57

And finding your own rhythm. I mean, the rhythm will be different from my rhythm. Yes. But it's finding your own rhythm and flow. Yes. Yeah. So tell me, um I before we get to, as we are closing the conversation, before we get to what's next for you, right? Yes. Um, you what's your big thing? How do you um how do you fill your own cap? I think it's important as mothers, as much as we are doing all these things. Yes. What are the things that you you do to take time out and just switch off and ground yourself and and how do you do that? Yeah. So do you find time?

SPEAKER_02 35:27

I do find time. So I I also when I wake up early, um, I make a minimum of 30 minutes in prayer. So it's very, very important. Also pray for some of the engagements, some of the rooms I find myself in, but also for for life holistically, right? And also prayer really grounds me in because you'll you'll you the checks will come and so forth, but you also need to remember the source of of everything. So prayer really, really grounds me. But I'm also really big on massages. So important massages. And then I also have um lunches and dinners alone. Um, it's also very important, yeah. Um, in as much as people don't believe I'm an introvert, you I do need alone time, um, and I am and vivant is what I've heard is is the new term. So those are some of the moments. And then once in a while, I also take you know, a weekend away by myself, either by the at the beach, um, ocean, and just take some time to journal, take a moment to reflect, um, also just to to take a moment to be like, that's the vision, how far are we? Because you know, in in this journey, you don't celebrate the small ones, or you forget to celebrate yourself, and then you look back and say, actually, we've achieved the following. So that's that's really how I feel my cup. I am intentional on that because I have also experienced um a little bit of um burnout where I was like, oh, I've actually taken too much, and I show up very differently in those places. You know, you don't want to be shouting at your kids for things that they they have no context of. So I'm also very conscious that I take time out to make sure that I'm showing up as my best self.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

Yeah, that's very good. And what's next for you?

SPEAKER_02 37:05

So, next we've we've um recently launched NK Intel, which is uh tell me about it. So, NK Intel is our institutional advisory and capital um discipline firm, and in about two weeks we're going to be launching our AI governance platform, and what we'll be using that for is just going into different um enterprises, spaces, SMEs, and saying you've deployed the following models, who's the decision owner, who owns that full model, um, and just answering answering the risk and compliance questions that comes in this world of AI. So we're really, really excited about that. And that actually came for you I'm excited for you. Yeah, it really came from again conversations that okay, we've implemented this, you've given us the strategy, but who owns this? Um, who's the who's who's who's the decision owner of this? How does this make sense? Um, and then just understanding that opportunity and through these conversations with board members, ex go, that's when we identify the opportunity. So when I say really get into these different spaces, it's so so important because it's also intentional, yes. As you step into boldness, the doors continuously open. To open, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:10

Wow, I am so proud of you. I'm so proud of the work that we do. Thank you. And I wish you everything of the best. Um, all the successes and everything that you you you touch. Um, tell me, how can people get hold of you? Do you take up on mentorship or anything like that? Because I know someone watching at home probably wants to be mentored. Yes. And um, so how do you engage with young people around um data and AI?

SPEAKER_02 38:32

Yeah, so High Rises does have a mentorship platform. Um, and we open up our applications around about September, October. So it's an eight-month program where we teach people the skills around data and AI, and it's a program we have partners.

SPEAKER_01 38:45

Eight months. Yes. Wow, that's intense. Like that's a whole full on-course. Yeah, no, it is, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:49

It is, it is a whole full on course. Um, and just really guides people onto this is what you should learn. Um, and also over and above that, we have the leadership capability in that mentorship program because it's not just a technical conversation that you need to have. It's a human conversation. It's a human conversation. And um, with High Razes, the beauty is that I've partnered with industry people. So I have, you know, the CIO of certain organizations, I have um founders as well in that platform. So it's not just good run or taking on, and we take on about 30 to 40 women every year. Um, again, just going back to giving back, right? It's around once you you get to to the top, you send the elevator down. It's also important. And so how people can um reach out to me is um on LinkedIn. Um I'm also available.

SPEAKER_01 39:31

Very active and insightful on LinkedIn. Yeah, I'm gonna do that. I'm like it can't be you though. You are you're not managing that, let's be honest. No. Okay, thank you. AI is. Yeah. What? Yes, yes, I have an element. And you have not spoken to me about it. And I am struggling. I was telling the guys actually that guys, I need a social media person. I don't know what I'm doing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:52

So once AI learns your voice, that this is how you write, this is the content it needs to produce, so every Saturday my AI runs, and then I'll just schedule, but I'll still review it. You schedule it, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm reviewing it. It's very important to make sure this align to the brand voice where we're going. And then from then I schedule and uh post.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

And I'm thinking, and it's the time. But I'm like, you this yes, I'm like, the time is consistent, yes. But you must be waking up every day in the morning to do this because wow.

SPEAKER_02 40:20

No, that was before AI. No, now we use the technology we market.

SPEAKER_01 40:25

We love it, we love it so much. Yes, yes. Thank you so much for the beautiful conversation, insightful conversation. We've learned a lot. I've learned a lot. Um, and definitely I know that our viewers and our listeners have also learned a lot around AI, data, and just you being this exceptional woman that has broken barriers, you know, in male-dominated environments as an engineer in the mining. So that's also like highly, highly complex, highly male-dominated, power dynamics, and um, you know, putting your foot down and and and and solidifying yourself in the space that you are in. And that's only through you having decided and being intentional about you becoming an expert in that. Um, at least expert of one and then master um of whatever. You know what I mean? So I think it's so beautiful. Yeah, thank you so much for joining us until um next time. Goodbye. Thank you guys, thank you. That was a beautiful conversation. Africa Ris today. Thank you for listening and thank you for tuning in. So, we are available on the podcast, Apple Podcasts, or any other streaming podcast. Please do comment, subscribe on both the podcast as well as our YouTube channel, which is Africa Rising Leadership. Until we see you again next time. Thank you.