Episode 65: Liz Allan and Chris Rimmer - Exploring Opportunities and Solutions in Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Development

Episode 65: Liz Allan and Chris Rimmer - Exploring Opportunities and Solutions in Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Development

Liz Allan speaks to Chris Rimmer, Deputy Head of Department at Cenex.  They discuss the various government departments Cenex works with, including OZEV, and share insights into the important role Chris' team plays in policy development and support for the LEVI Fund. Chris discusses the intricacies of concessions for charge point operators, the challenges of future-proofing the EV infrastructure, and the crucial role of local authorities in driving the adoption of electric vehicles. 

Chris Rimmer Bio:
Chris is a diverse individual, with a strong focus on customer service and problem-solving. He excelled in managing a team and ensuring smooth operations. However, his interests expanded beyond the call centre industry as he became intrigued by the potential of connected home technology. He delved into the realm of automation, specifically exploring how data can be utilised to optimise heating, lighting, and overall energy consumption to benefit individuals and businesses financially.   Working as Deputy Head of Department at CENEX,  Chris and his team are dedicated to increasing commercial viability and providing public value for those without off-street parking.

Chris Rimmer Links:
Website: https://www.cenex.co.uk
Twitter: https://twitter.com/cenexLCFC
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-rimmer-58468233

Episode Keywords:
Government departments, OZEV, policy development, LEVI Fund, electric vehicle infrastructure, commercial viability, public value, off-street parking, transport policies, net zero policies, concession, charge point operators, procurement process, specifications, safety, data, standard charge points, local authorities, council officers, negativity, media, funding, EV officers, decarbonisation, funding allocation, public-private commercial partnerships, operational risks, public sector, joint venture approaches, data reliability, service level agreement, charge point operator, LEVI funding

Episode Hashtags:
#ElectricEvolution #EVInfrastructure #ChargePointOperators #ConcessionsInEVs #FundingForEVCharging #BuildingEVInfrastructure #PublicPrivatePartnerships #NetZeroTransport #EVChargingStrategies #ImprovingAirQuality #RegulatingElectricScooters #FutureOfTransport #CollaborativeApproach #SustainableMobility #InnovativeTe

Transcript

Liz Allan [00:00:01]:

Okay. So on today's podcast episode, I have got Chris Rimmer, who is the deputy head of department at Cenex. Chris, thank you ever so much for joining me. We've we've not met, but we've spoken on Teams before, haven't we? So so lovely to see you again.

Chris Rimmer [00:00:18]:

Wow. Thanks for having me. Pleasure to be here to

Liz Allan [00:00:21]:

chat. So Cenex, start off with and what and you know what? Let's let's Start I wanna start off with you rather than Cenex because there's there's a lot to talk about with Cenex anyway, isn't there? So you previously worked in energy. And and, obviously, you've been, I'm not I can't remember how long you've been at Cenex now. How long is it?

Chris Rimmer [00:00:41]:

It's about 4 years nearly coming up, So it's been a little while. And, yeah, previously, I worked over at EON That was him. And kind of a bit of a background in energy. And between then and now, actually took a breakout to help set up a Theology college. So something completely different, project management, project director, and then sort of came back into energy and, electric vehicles

Liz Allan [00:01:02]:

afterwards. So what okay. Hey. God. You've gotta tell me about this theology college flipping out. What what? How did how did how did you get into that? How did she go from EON to setting up a theology

Chris Rimmer [00:01:15]:

college? Yes. Well, long story. I'll try and keep it a bit short. Go on. Go on. I guess So, yeah, it was at EON really delighted to to be on their graduate program. It's a great thing that we sort of try and bring a bit Here, there's a lot of us that used to work at EON here at Cenex. They gave me lots of different experience, helped train me up in kind of project management, got to do r and d projects.

Chris Rimmer [00:01:36]:

I I saw, a call center team as well, international experience as well as UK. So it was a really good time and got right into a connected home, autonomous, heating and lighting, and how you use data around the home to make good decisions to help people and businesses save money. And I'm also kind of, at the same time, personal life member of my local church. And, one of the pastors there, was was a lecturer, like a faculty member at a kind of, theology college, and they said, well, we need a project director. We need someone to sort of bring this all together. So I got a tap on the shoulder and say, well, do you fancy doing something a bit different. And so I was kind of employee number 1 almost, in trying to put this thing together that was almost like distance learning. So you can imagine people that want to Trained to be church ministers or church leaders.

Chris Rimmer [00:02:23]:

Mhmm. You don't wanna take them out of their community and put them in university for 3 years. You really wanna train them on the job because It's pastoral. It's about people. It's about putting stuff into practice. So I did that for 2 years or so and then handed that over and then, got back in touch with some of my old EON colleagues and they said, well, you know, we've got a position open here at Cenex. Do you want to come and start get stuck into decarbonizing transport? And So got lots to learn still, but, yeah, getting back into the topic and, really interested to be in our energy systems and infrastructure department.

Liz Allan [00:02:55]:

Amazing. Amazing. So please, can you do me a favor and tell everybody what Cenex actually does? Is it right? Is it does it It must stand for something for a

Chris Rimmer [00:03:05]:

start off. It does. And I'm so glad that it's a shorter version of the center of excellence for low carbon and fuel cell technology. So, You can't put that on the business card, so it's it's CENEX. We're an independent, not for profit research and technology organization. So our mission is about helping transport of all forms get decarbonized. We're divided into different groups. So I've got my transport colleagues.

Chris Rimmer [00:03:28]:

They deal with everything that moves, so lorries and lawnmowers, tractors, freight, ferries, kind of, if it's moving around, they monitor it, understand it, try and get their heads around the Technology. And then I'm over in the infrastructure and energy systems, department. So here, it's about the recharging, refueling. You know, trying to do that without Blowing up the local substation, trying to figure out the right number and type and placement of infrastructure to enable that. And, of course, we work very closely together. I mean, we were set up, 18 years ago, actually, by the UK government and the automotive industry. So that's before EV was kind of a hot topic or anything like that. The idea was to Bring these new ideas and technologies down the research and development pipeline and over the sort of valley of death into commercialization.

Chris Rimmer [00:04:17]:

And that's what My colleagues who've been here since it was set up have been doing. So it's a real privilege to work with folks who've been at this for a very long time. And now, you You know, climate change is a hot topic. Air quality is quite an important topic, and we're seeing the switch particularly for lighter vehicles and lots of really trials going on, so it's great to sort of trade off their knowledge and their experience when they were pushing water uphill. We're now at this more tipping point, and it's quite interesting to see everything growing pace. So, yeah, we're we're independent. We're constitutionally non profit, so that just means We've not got shareholders to to to please or to pay, and so that means we can figure out the right things to go at. Sometimes the questions that No one else wants to tackle and try and, bring some of our sort of expertise and analysis to bear on it.

Liz Allan [00:05:02]:

And you've had and you've just said, you've had people there since the start up start up. Are they still there now?

Chris Rimmer [00:05:09]:

Yeah. I mean, so we have a a good turnover of folks. So it's always nice when we get new folks in. They Bring new ideas. They bring new energy. They come from other industries, be that public or private. But, yeah, I have folks in including our CEO, Robert, who, you know, have been here really Since day 1 and have been kind of waving the flag for cleaner, greener transport for a long time. And, it's yeah.

Chris Rimmer [00:05:32]:

As I say, it's a real privilege to work with people like that who Definitely know their stuff.

Liz Allan [00:05:37]:

Yeah. That's amazing. That's and for to go the like you said, pushing water uphill, That must have been a really, really diff really difficult one. It's not you're not selling it, but difficult one to Port when people weren't even on on board. You know, at least at least you we've got a portion of the UK that's on well, Probably more than a portion, but I I there's a lot of people that recognize the requirement for decarbonization, isn't there? But I think we just need to we need to do a lot a lot more currently to kind of push that push that agenda because I I know it's part of a it's part of a bigger picture, isn't it? But it's just really important.

Chris Rimmer [00:06:20]:

Yeah. I mean, I find it's a It's a really interesting area to work in. And actually, the fact that there are still questions means that I still have a job in Some regards. So, you know, it's it's quite a complicated technical area if I think about the stuff that I really work on day in, day out. Electric vehicle such at EVI. You know, there's a lot of kind of technical, electrical compliance, legal, regulatory stuff in there. So, you know, the fact that I get to to watch what's going on, see best practice, try and repackage it up as advice or training or sort of guidance or strategies, to hopefully help people make sensible decisions and routes through that, whether they're public sector, local authorities who are looking at local EV infrastructure, private, organizations who are looking to enter the market or enhance their offering. We work with charities as well, who are looking kind of Destination sites where people are driving and saying, yeah, I wanna charge at x, y, zed site or even whole countries.

Chris Rimmer [00:07:15]:

Yeah. It makes for a very varied and interesting Job that kind of delighted to do, really.

Liz Allan [00:07:20]:

Yeah. That's I didn't yeah. I suppose thinking about it, It must be something that that, you know, every every day is different for you. So I'm assuming one day you could be working with the government. Next Next day, you could be working with private industry or or or a local authority. How does it how does it all fit together? Who are the ones that you work with the most then? Or is it kinda unlike such a big spread.

Chris Rimmer [00:07:46]:

Yeah. So I sort of say if you look at the long term, we've got kind of 4 c's. We work with councils, companies, charities, and countries. It's nicely alliterative. I think in terms of my team around electric vehicle infrastructure, particularly at the moment, there's a big emphasis with the public sector in the Hey here. So I'm I'm sure we'll go on to talk about the local EV infrastructure fund, Levi, but looking to try and assist local authorities and central government Their schemes of management to get charge points out in the right type of charge point in the right number, in the right place, under the right commercial arrangement and do that in a way that is appropriately future proofed but gets good value for money right now. You know, that like you say, there's kind of A wide variety of questions that need to be answered there. We do, of course, still work for some of those other organizations, and, yeah, it sort of ebbs and flows depending on, who's He's interested in working with us and and who's putting out for work.

Chris Rimmer [00:08:40]:

The other side of, of things that perhaps I do less but my colleagues do as well is development. So often delighted to be partnering with or funded by Innovate UK and others to Try out brand new, ideas or or to try and build an idea. So vehicle to grid is something that our department has a long history, and I think we installed the 1st domestic vehicle to grid charger at one of my colleagues' houses. Blue. Now the first one on a meeting room wall, I'm sure, because it's over there in our other meeting Having not worked after a couple of years, it sort of, gave up the ghost. But, you know, from then on, kind of trying to track With that idea, dynamic charging, we're currently just wrapping up a project that we've been working on the use of sensors and data, trying to get into heavier vehicles. This week, while we're filming, I guess, after this gets released, we've got the Cenex LCV event, where I think our stand is based around sort of farm of the future. So what do you do with decarbonization in a in an agricultural setting? So, you know, these sorts of customers and these sorts of projects come along quite much a big chances for us to try and dive into, topics that are as yet unsolved.

Chris Rimmer [00:09:48]:

Well, as many things are, Obviously, try and make our little contribution to moving it down the line.

Liz Allan [00:09:52]:

Because it's it is just like a massive big jigsaw puzzle, all of this, isn't it? It's putting all these different pieces together and making sure they all work. So, you know, that's that's a big task in itself, isn't it?

Chris Rimmer [00:10:07]:

Absolutely. And and I guess, particularly because we come at it from a a sort of technology perspective, making The products, the solutions, the services, the underlying tech, you know, is it fit for purpose? Is it reliable? Does it Deliver, but then, of course, you've got to have the customer angle. Like, in terms of the end user, is it meeting their needs? Is it making their life more convenient Or more clean or more cost effective. And then, of course, there's a commercial angle as well, you know, right back to our beginning being set up by the automotive industry and the government. Yeah. How can we make these things fly? It's not gonna be us that sell them. You know, there are folks out there doing the hard yards of getting the solution to market, Making businesses out of it. So you've kinda got to get that tech customer and commercial triangle sorted.

Chris Rimmer [00:10:51]:

And, of course, yeah, that That means that there's there's lots to be considered in there.

Liz Allan [00:10:55]:

Mhmm. Definitely. Do you know what? I'm just behind you. And for those who Actually listening to this rather than watching. I'm sorry this won't make any sense to you, but I will tell you. So behind, you've got kinda like a, it's Sort of like a map or a mind map anyway, isn't it? And you've got I can see you've got, yeah, product development partnerships, regional strategies and policy. I can't see the bottom one, but you've got innovative infrastructure, energy systems, vehicle to grid. There's lots and lots of stuff that you're getting your teeth into there.

Liz Allan [00:11:26]:

So where how how are you actually I know your yours is obviously the the transportation side. Who in government are you working with then on the transportation side? I mean, like I say, I know I've just explained some some of the stuff you've got behind you, but if we go back to transportation, who would that

Chris Rimmer [00:11:50]:

be that you're working with. Yeah. So we do a lot of work with OSEF and really delighted to to kind of partner with them on on a range of projects. Obviously, they report into Department For Transport. Mhmm. And, you know, there's Desnez as well around energy security and net zero. And then funding across those, you know, comes out in various ways or steered in various ways through Innovate, but actually increasingly internationally. So the UK is not always a leader in everything, but actually, you know, has a number of things where there's there's a a weight and a a length of experience that can be, supported and applied, so working with department for trade and and and international development, working for, other folks who are trying to sort of put UK companies out there or who are trying to attract inward investments.

Chris Rimmer [00:12:41]:

So there's there's a range of government departments that we ultimately work for. I guess for my team, It's particularly, the team over at OZEV at the moment. Like I said, it sort of comes in, you know, in in phases. But, yeah, it's it's great because it means that we We are getting a bit of a front row seat on some of the policy developments going on, and and helping to try and, what is happening, so we're part of the support body for the Levi Fund at the moment, and and really trying to, assist with the execution of that scheme so that there's, you know, ultimately an improvement in commerciality of electric vehicle infrastructure. That's that kind of commercial point we talked about But also getting the sort of scale, value for the public purse, serving residents and businesses who who don't have off street or sort of private deck depot parking, Which comes back to the kind of wider strategies and policies that that we have in transport, which roll up to the sort of wider policies strategies we have around net zero as a country. So in that sense, you're playing a little part amongst the whole range of folks that are that are contributing there.

Liz Allan [00:13:49]:

But your your own contribution for that is is is quite, in-depth, isn't it? So so if we if we look at Levi, for example, You're you've been working with OSEF, haven't you, on the technical specification for Levi. So so for those, there will be lots of people that know about this. But for those that don't, Can you just explain about Levi and how how it works for local authorities? And and and what this this specification is actually about. Yeah. So, Levi, as

Chris Rimmer [00:14:27]:

we said, is the local EV infrastructure fund. It's About £400,000,000 set aside for local authorities to spend. There's sort of 2 pots. The capability fund is £50,000,000, which Really enabling the hiring of resource in local authorities. So as as those have sort of created the scheme, they were very aware That there is just often a lack of capacity and capability in the local authorities. You know, they've got, sort of Statutory, obligations on schooling and health and social services. Yes. A lot that local authorities have to deal with.

Chris Rimmer [00:15:03]:

And so, yeah, EV charging can get sidelined or it can be sort of the side part of a job in a wider climate change or wider highways sort of department. So here, the Funding is to enable the hiring of local EVI or EV officers, who ultimately will be kind of playing a coordinating strategy delivery, sort of role. And then the other part, the sort of 350,000,000 ish, is really capital funding To help, support, commercial at scale deployment of charge points, particularly for residents who, don't have off street parking. And and Levi sort of complements the rapid charging fund, which some of your listeners or or viewers might have come across, which is about Equipping the motorway service stations and and and the sort of the the main roads of the UK. So Levi works. Each local authority has an allocation of money, and then they need to put together an application process to show how they're gonna use that. And then that, as it becomes approved, then, triggers It's the release of the money, which can then be put together with private sector investment, hopefully, to make sure that we're getting as much Scale as we can, to reduce barriers to EV uptake. And so we're part of the support body, so our job is to advise The local authorities on making good plans and good strategies and then on good project formulation, ultimately getting, a Good application and then assessing that application and passing that up to those for them to to review and hopefully approve and Then, sort of tracking with the delivery of that.

Chris Rimmer [00:16:37]:

And you can imagine that spans the whole, sort of, project development process. So you're right the way through from, You know, what even is an EV, which for some, officers and folks who are new to this area is is a very legitimate and important question All the way through to monitoring and evaluation. You know, we've done it. We've got it out there. The contract is there. How do we manage it? How do we make sure, that we're doing the right thing? And right in the middle is the question of procurement. And historically, local authorities have been sort of trialing and testing with with more a fully owned and operated model where they they kinda do everything. So take all the risk.

Chris Rimmer [00:17:10]:

They get any any reward themselves, but it allows them to control their projects much more. As we're seeing EV uptake increase, there's investment in the private charge point operators. They're able to bring supply funding to the table. Now the kind of commercial arrangement shifts more to, say, concessionary arrangements or, to land leasing where sort of the the LA releases the land Or even to joint ventures. We see 1 or 2 joint ventures where public and private sector are coming together. So then the question is, how can we do that as well as we can? So So part of our role along with colleagues in Energy Saving Trust and PA is to produce series of products or or documents and guidance, Important of a better term, that is to try and, bring or or move us towards more consistent ways of doing that. And so you reference these technical schedules. Mhmm.

Chris Rimmer [00:17:58]:

You've got, sort of, heads of terms for concession contracts, which say these are the key terms we'd expect to see in a concession contract. Here are the options for what you might sit along the way, and here's what we think best practice looks like in terms of, contract length or in terms of who owns Assets are in terms of how you might manage or influence the tariff. And, of course, many of those hinge on the question of technicalities and compliance and regulations. And so we've got sort of Secondary piece of guidance that hopefully will come out, very, very soon, which, we call the technical schedules, which goes through a sort of smorgasbord Menu of choice. So if you want to put out there a bit of a, it's not as tasty as a smorgasbord, let's be honest.

Liz Allan [00:18:39]:

Yeah. I'm

Chris Rimmer [00:18:40]:

Sure. Cutting through the dry content and the excellent work that that my colleagues have done, you know, something around safety, around data, or around what is a 87 kilowatt standard charge point or any of these points that you would might build into a specification allows a bit of picking and choosing to build The specification. And our our hope with that is to bring a bit of consistency. So really conscious that the private market is gonna be out there bidding for stuff. So Having the same terminology in the same forms going out to market in the same way reduces the overall effort for for those that want to bring their investment to bear on these projects, but equally it upskills and supports the local authorities, hopefully, to procure good quality, High value contracts. So we're sort of trying to balance those 2 off. Mhmm. And, yeah, like I say, just kind of putting that stuff out there, Refining it as we go and we learn.

Chris Rimmer [00:19:31]:

You know, we don't know everything. We've we've taken feedback from lots of CPAs and lots of LAs as well. And sort of interested to see them get used in anger and then Find out where we've perhaps not quite got it right or where we're landing in the right place and and refine and improve over the next couple of years. Mhmm. Mhmm.

Liz Allan [00:19:47]:

I I was I was gonna say, right. So on a concession, we're talking about so I when I think of a concession, it's concession, I think of kind of John the John Lewis of this you know where you kind of go into John Lewis and you've got lots of little shops. But that's that's not what we're talking here, is it? We're talking about the the money that comes from the local Authority and the money that that the actual charge point operator is is putting in is putting in for, you know, for the local authority. What I was gonna ask You you gotta tell me whether I'm right about that, by the way. But what I was gonna ask you was, how can charge point operators afford to pay all of this because it's isn't it's quite risky at the moment, isn't it? If you if if you think about it. You know, at the moment, we've got, what is it, 17% of of cars on the road are electric. So so it's kind of there's a there's a lot of there must be a lot of hedging going on with this.

Chris Rimmer [00:20:46]:

Yeah. So I think it's 17 Sales are electric at the moment.

Liz Allan [00:20:49]:

Yeah. That was it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Rimmer [00:20:51]:

About 2 a half percent last time I checked of of cars. But, yeah, you you the number's absolutely spot on there. Yes. I guess the way to think of the concession is almost like the right to offer a service. So in the case of in John Lewis, I'm gonna reveal my lack of fashion That's here. You know, like, Dorothy Perkins has a right to sell with it. I don't know. I like I just hate it myself, I'm sure.

Chris Rimmer [00:21:15]:

But, all the people out there listening here are Much cooler and damp and faster than me.

Liz Allan [00:21:19]:

They're probably gonna tell me off actually people listening and watching because I'm probably thinking Debenhams would have been a better better option, but that's totally

Chris Rimmer [00:21:27]:

gone now, Isn't it? Yeah. I mean yeah. Anyway, moving on past that. So, yeah, it's the kind of it's the right to operate. And so, what what you know, it kind of I guess you come back to the question of why is the LA even involved in this. Right? Why doesn't the private sector do this themselves? And There's a couple of reasons, and it will vary by LA depending on where, particularly, the cabinet will land on this and what political affiliation it has And the kind of overall strategy and funding of the LA, but broadly speaking, local authorities have land, and they oversee the highways. So they will need to be involved One way or another. Yeah.

Chris Rimmer [00:22:00]:

And they could just go, here's a car park. We're gonna lease it out, get a ground rent, and what you do with it is fine. That's fine. But if there's a certain level of service you wish to impose on that, you can't do that in a lease. So that's where the concession comes in. So it's, look, Can have access to the land and a right to offer a service, but here are the stipulations you need to follow. And of course, then there is a sharing risk as you point out here. So, you know, the private investor is saying, right, well, I'm gonna put my x 100 of 1,000 or 1,000,000 of pounds in, and I am expecting a certain utilization In the future, which will gain me revenue, which I use to make my return on investment.

Chris Rimmer [00:22:36]:

And so the key thing in the concession here is making sure there's a reasonable return on investment The private sector, but crucially, they do need to have the risk of operation is on them, and that's part of really the specific definition of what a concession is. It can't just be the risk is kind of taken out of the game by the local authority investment and needs to be A sharing of risk, and and that might divide down in different ways for different projects. But broadly speaking, it's a kind of public private commercial partnerships that are coming together To work on providing something, and the LA's will want that because, for many, there's a sense that, this wave of electrification is coming, but for folks who don't have driveways, for folks who can't afford, to buy new or even used vehicles, for people who are very dependent on their private cars. This isn't necessarily an easy market to get into, certainly not At the moment, and so in in the sense of kind of equity and fairness and balance, a so called just transition, Then there's a need to make sure we steer these in the right way to support particularly the areas where there's not maybe the strongest commercially viable case, and leave other use cases, you know, sort of service stations or or or fuel station type models where there is a much better case, to the private To to deliver. So that's kind of why the LA sort of needs to get involved, how they share the risk, what it is they're trying to achieve. And, of course, it's It's not a model for everyone. You know, there are cities out there who want to own and operate absolutely everything. There are those who have this joint venture approach.

Chris Rimmer [00:24:07]:

So we're trying to be, you know, cross those approaches to make sure that we're driving scale, commerciality, ultimately getting the right charge points, as I said at the beginning, in the right place at the right I'm on the right

Liz Allan [00:24:18]:

arrangement. Absolutely. Because, like you say, if the if a if a local authority and a charge point operator has done their done their work, They will be able to theoretically, you'd be able to see what footfall is gonna go through, wouldn't you, in order to make sure that that both parties are happy? And then and then I suppose the concession or the the term terms and conditions, to me, I'd call that a service level agreement, actually, rather than just terms and conditions because The well, the 2 go together, don't they? The sir the service level agreement is actually right. Okay. What are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? But, you know, if it's the if It's the l a the local authority to charge point operator. We need you to be to make sure that this is I mean, especially with the mandate that's that's come out for kind of, you know, kind of the higher powered, charges. You know, we need to make sure that you are 99% reliable and that you can prove prove that with data. Because and the other thing is if you I suppose if you've got a council car park, it's got the council on the on the, you know, on the board at the front of it, Is a user actually going to ring the the charge point operator up, or are they gonna bad mouth the council?

Chris Rimmer [00:25:30]:

Well and this is all part of what we're trying to do with these schedules and the advice and the guidance is, you know, give the councils, Particularly those that need it. You know, there are lots of councils out there who are going great guns and and particularly spearheaded by, you know, officers who really know their stuff and Doing great work. But there are those who are still a little bit in catch up mode, and in that sense, they get the capacity through the capacity funding, and then we're trying to build out the capability. And we don't have all the answers, but so far as we can draw on experts and others and bring that in front of them, you know, through kind events that we run through training that that that we're sort of planning on through networking channels with sort of Teams channels where, Yeah. The LA officers are actually asking answering their own questions. You know? So what's what do you do about this? Has anyone got a template for traffic orders. Oh, yeah. Sure.

Chris Rimmer [00:26:18]:

Here's mine. Oh, can I have that one too? You know? And kind of they pile in and help each other. You form a bit of a community, actually, where then the support body is there to provide the scaffolding the structure and hopefully some of the knowledge, but actually there's a lot of knowledge out there, and there's a lot of good stuff being doing. So, you know, kind of sharing that best practice as well.

Liz Allan [00:26:34]:

Yeah. Yeah. I was I was gonna ask you. So so, obviously, Levi's been a a bidding process, as you've said. Was the take up of Levi what Cenex, you know, what was it what everybody expected? And how do you know how many local authorities haven't are are actually left over? Do you know what I mean? Because it It was only a certain number in the pilot, wasn't it? And then there's been more funding this year. Yeah. But how many are left

Chris Rimmer [00:27:07]:

over? Is that a lot? Good news is none, really. And the reason for that is there's definite pent up demand as we saw that in the Levi pilot. That was for some slightly more projects that were trying to test the boundaries on technology or test the boundaries

Liz Allan [00:27:23]:

on some of

Chris Rimmer [00:27:23]:

the commercials. And then, Ozawa was able to release additional funding for others that We're originally not part of the first nine, if I remember correctly, but we're able to be part of a kind of extended pilot. But then Because each LA has its kind of allocation there, so I'm sat here in Chalmers in Leicestershire. So Leicestershire has some money, and that is then spread spread across the whole country. Through the process, it's about the LA achieving a certain level of application, At which point, it triggers the release of the money. So we want really excellent applications. And that way, nobody gets left behind, and we can kinda drive the commercial and the bidding out into the market to Get the best charging offer we can for that money rather than having LAs compete against each other for funding pots, because that's been, you know, quite a new way of delivering the funding, but it means that, nobody's left behind because the money is there. And then it's about making sure we match the availability of that money With their ability to start to put those sort of project application proposals together, and so we've got some for this financial year and some for next financial year and some that are just Hoping to be this financial year, but, you know, if some things slip, we might, they might move into next financial year.

Chris Rimmer [00:28:33]:

So come March 2025, Hopefully, all being well, the money has been dispersed, and then is with the LAs to start running these procurements ultimately to partner with, the The private provider or providers that they select so that we can then deliver. So, yeah, this is a program that's gonna run on for for quite a while, I suspect.

Liz Allan [00:28:54]:

Yeah. I was I was gonna ask So there's a couple of questions I was just thinking. So once the procurement process has gone through so the the be they've been say they've been awarded the money or you know, they know that they're actually getting the money, and then the procurement process goes through. How long is it before they actually have spend you know, to have spent it by what period of time, you know, they got.

Chris Rimmer [00:29:20]:

Yeah. I so there's no hard and I think things will be assessed on a case by case basis. Clearly, because this is about supporting, strategy delivery and breaking down barriers in advance of, kind of 2030. Mhmm. The the the first a big target, 2035 for all all vehicles being all cars and vans being sold being zero emission. Yes. Because of that, we wanna deploy the money quickly, but, equally, you wanna do it at quality. So quality trumps time in that regard.

Chris Rimmer [00:29:51]:

So get the right application in that triggers the release to LA, and then it will be for them to figure out the right time. And, of course, they're gonna need to be sensitive to the market's ability to Respond to those tenders, the supply chain's ability to then ultimately deploy. And so there'll be kind of installation programs and planning that that sort of cascades off the back of this and then Commissioning, and then we're into operations. So I think what we should see is a real increase and expansion in the available charging a facility that's public funded supported through Levi. Of course, in parallel, many, judgment operators are charging ahead, no pun intended. Trying to find their own location and do deals, you know, at particular destinations or locations. So, you know, with those 2 sort of twin tracks, Then we should see a sort of expansion that ultimately brings comfort to, the drivers that perhaps are out there, and and we know there are those They're looking around like, well, maybe I'd like to switch, but is the infrastructure really there for what I need? Well so we should start to be able to scaffold and support that.

Liz Allan [00:30:51]:

The The amount of stuff that I mean, me and you are both in the same WhatsApp group, aren't we? With the there's a 100 people in this in this WhatsApp group. And, and there's there's a lot of negativity out there fueled by and I've I always talk about this in all of the podcasts or most of the podcasts fueled by some, you know, the the the media push pushing this This kind of negative negative agenda as you know? And it was even it even affected in in my mind of or actually, you know, around the, the Uxbridge by election. You know, the way that things moved and the backpedaling that the government started to kind of, start start doing. Was that did you start kind of going, oh god. It's you know, does it affect you at all that? Or or do or does it kind of like, as far as you're Concerned you've know that you've got this funding, and you know you're gonna be helping people, you know, the local authorities and the charge point operators for x amount of time, or did it start getting you a little bit not quite sure about this? I'm not particularly happy. How did you feel?

Chris Rimmer [00:32:05]:

Yeah. I mean, it's a great question. I guess I can't speak for the high politics of the decision making that goes on and and affects, you know, kind of the timing of these releases. And clearly, the government IBIS program has its announcements it wants to make. And, you know, we've seen in the news this week with concrete in schools, there are some really serious things that need to be addressed and And and rightly, that will take up, you know, priorities. We don't want concrete blocks falling on kids' heads and stuff.

Liz Allan [00:32:29]:

Not at all, won't they?

Chris Rimmer [00:32:30]:

I think That said, our approach here is we we crack on delivering, basically. Mhmm. So, you know, we wanna we wanna see acceleration towards the delivery 3 of of the goals we think are important. Yeah. I think for myself personally, I come back regularly to that Public Health England report says 36,000 people die a year from poor quality in this country, and a significant proportion of that comes from road transport, from nitrous oxide, from particulate matter, respiratory diseases and the like. And we have air quality management areas where the legal thresholds for some of those pollutants have been passed. Currently, our best solutions are move the vehicle somewhere else. And so with emissions that are much lower at the tailpipe for some of these vehicles, along with wider sustainable travel sort of plans to get people out cycling and walking and on shared transport and public transport and the like, we can start to move the needle on some of that stuff.

Chris Rimmer [00:33:24]:

And so that requires Really good project formulation and strategy that requires good applications. And so we crack on trying to deliver. And, you know, the politics Come and go, and people take different views on this. And, some people get very exercised by that. Personally, I'm like, let's get stuff done. Let's try and make a bit of a cleaner place, and, you know, do our contribution. And hats off to the folks who I mean, you know, we're in kind of a research organization. We're not really delivering in in the truest sense.

Chris Rimmer [00:33:54]:

So it's it's the folks on the front line, some of whom are our local authority officers, Who are actually just getting the job done, you know. And so that's that's kind of where I I tend to land on it.

Liz Allan [00:34:05]:

Yeah. Yeah. No. I get it. Talking of poor air quality, my I told you about I've got a 17 year old son, and I nearly did an embarrassing mum thing today to him, because we were we were sat, having we're both celiac. We're both eating our gluten free lunch, sat in Marks and Spencer's. There there's a little food food a car park of Marks and Spencer's food in Redding, and there was somebody idling. It was 27 degrees, and she was idling.

Liz Allan [00:34:35]:

And she was literally sat eating her lunch. And I oh my god. I was chomping at the bit to go and have a word with her, but my son was like, no, mom. No. You can't do that. I went and I actually got out the car and sort of leaned over, you know, and she was she He was far enough away from me, but I just thought, oh my god. Do you actually not think about it? But but people don't do the I used to think I I suppose I didn't think about it in the same way, but I do now. You know? And it's it's actually getting that mess how do you get that message across to people about Poor air air quality unless you're actually talking about x number of people die or have you know, like that the little girl in in Lewisham, you know, that that died, and it and it said it on a but on a death certificate that it was poor air quality or air pollution.

Liz Allan [00:35:22]:

How'd you get this message across to people other than banging on someone's window and going, turn your engine off? Well,

Chris Rimmer [00:35:29]:

maybe your son was happy that you weren't going banging on windows, but, I think, you know, It comes down to providing, I think, providing people with the choice and the opportunity and, you know, where where it's appropriate, the kind of incentives to To think about the wider impact that our behaviors have, you know, it's so easy. I think about my own life. It's so easy just to buy something or do something that benefits me, and it comes back. It's an old, old piece of, work, the the tragedy of the commons. I don't know if you come across this, but, you know, the little village around The green and everybody puts a sheep on the on the green. So they're 1 sheep up, but they're 1 over the number of sheeps down because that's how much grass gets eaten. So, like, well, I'll put another sheep on. So, you know, everybody puts sheep on till the thing becomes overgrazed, and then all the sheep die.

Chris Rimmer [00:36:16]:

And I guess all the people die as a result. So, you know, that is kind of the picture in my head around the actions that I take which benefit me. Ultimately, I get A lot of benefit from them. It's very easy to forget the wider, consequences that that has on others. Yeah. And so in terms of air quality, you know, hopping in the car, driving place, It's really easy to forget, you know, what impact that might have on other people who might simply just be living next to the road. So, you know, that for me is a really, you know, I'm I'm no doubt there's ways that I could put that into practice myself better, but it's a strong motivator to turn up to work. And, you know, it kind of brings a really Crosscutting, whatever the political stripe, lots of people agree it's good for us to have clean air.

Chris Rimmer [00:36:59]:

And I think of an LA officer who I was in a workshop with, and they said, yeah, it's kind of unacceptable that we This number of people die every year in our county. Like, well, yeah. We we now have the technology to do something about that. And so little by little, slowly by slowly, let's Get that out there. Let's encourage people to travel more healthily and more sustainably. And, you know, maybe some of those, whatever, at the last Count 600 air quality management areas in the UK will soon, you know, start to drop down, and we start to See, some of those sort of benefits come through.

Liz Allan [00:37:31]:

Yeah. Exact and you you guys were involved in, there's been a letter going to government about the legalization of e scooters. So joint it was 25th July. I'm just looking on your website now. It's a joint lit letter to the prime minister. Do you wanna just explain a little bit about that? Because thinking about clean air quality and active travel and and just and, actually, We don't want to just be having EVs on the road, do we? We want to reduce the amount of of kind of traffic that's on the road full stop and doing different

Chris Rimmer [00:38:01]:

things. Yeah. Absolutely. So, got colleagues who've worked a lot on micro mobility on, which is more than just scooters, they always tell me. So I should repeat Cox. You know? I suppose it's really simple. Is it really simple? It's really easy for someone in my place or if you're writing a kind of strategy To go, okay. Let's take all the petrol diesel cars off the road and replace them with electric cars.

Chris Rimmer [00:38:24]:

And that causes a wider consumption issue. It doesn't really hit the congestion points. Yeah. Congestion loses people time. It's economic value. You know, there's kind of a wider impact that sort of thing just sat in traffic jams day in, day out, particularly when we have platforms like this, which can work very well. There's no substitute, personally, I think, to being in person. But, there are some tasks that are very easily, you know, replaced by this sort of digital interaction.

Chris Rimmer [00:38:53]:

So, yeah, Thinking more widely about what we call the vehicle park and how we manage down the number of vehicles on the roads in general. You know, if we can have just perhaps half or Or it's maybe 75% or 90% of those petrol diesel vehicles replaced by electric. That less metal that needs to be put into things that are sat stationary, like, 95% of the time.

Liz Allan [00:39:17]:

And that

Chris Rimmer [00:39:18]:

app that opens up an opportunity to challenge. You know, we sort of say the Englishman's home is his castle. Well, maybe there's something some similar phrase around cars. Like, I want my car On my drive for me to drive when I want it. Well, do I need to own that car? Could I share it with others? Does it need to be on my drive? What hap what can it Doing when I'm not using it. How can we start to open up other ways of thinking about getting around? And, of course, sort of personalized mobility, shared mobility, micro mobility, you know, are key topics. And the good old e scooter is a little bit a casualty as I understand it. My transport colleagues will shoot I forget this wrong, but, yeah, the kind of classification system.

Chris Rimmer [00:39:59]:

It it you know, unless you have an MOT and insurance and all these other things that cars have, it's technically illegal on the roads and Pavements, you can drive it on private land. Of course, there's a profligate market, in places where they are being illegally ridden. And even in the pilot areas, you know, the sort of the Londons and and the Nottings of this world. There's sort of the interesting ways of getting around, and peep they're popular. So it's one of those examples where the innovation has happened and now something needs to happen to really Catch up to enable this because people love them and they find them very convenient, but we need to find ways to steer that so it's kind of, You know, a scooter barreling down a pavement 15 miles an hour that runs into people, it's a pretty dangerous thing. But on The road, they are subject to HTVs, and we've had deaths and the like, sadly. So, you know, kind of putting the right structure around that to put it in its right place and to release that Innovation, but within the right boundaries, makes a lot of sense. And that's 1 less car that's driving.

Chris Rimmer [00:41:01]:

So it's a little bit more space on the road, so, You know, a little bit more, less stuff manufactured or whatever or whatever. So, you know, it's kind of comes back to that question of sustainable travel that we Talked about earlier in getting, if you like, the transport hierarchy right in terms of how we should try and move people and goods around. And so, yeah, Hence, we've been involved in all sorts of things. In fact, at the upcoming Levi Roadshow, we've got colleagues from Como UK kicking off with what's wanted from local EV Infrastructure, well, you know, it's about kind of ability and car clubs and this sort of thing. So trying to think laterally as well as, you know, what do we need to do for the EVs that that we foresee See coming on the

Liz Allan [00:41:40]:

roads. Nice. Brilliant, Ashley. And and these these road shows, you're having lots of local authorities attending anyway and and kind of giving them giving them a A a lot of a lot of value. I just wanna finish off by asking you, what do you want? What would you like to see the UK to what what would you like the UK to have achieved by 2030?

Chris Rimmer [00:42:05]:

Oh, that's a good question, Liz. Well, I think if I think about just my area of work, there are lots The things I'd love to see achieved, you know. We could talk about poverty and hunger. We could talk about, yeah, all sorts of societal issues. The human condition. No. You know, we could really go wider. But let's talk about transport since that's really what we're all about here.

Chris Rimmer [00:42:26]:

I think what what I'd really like to see is, an equality of opportunity for people to make a different transport choice doesn't necessarily need to be car to car, and for that to start to Filter through into, reductions in pollution and environmental impact. And, yeah, I was just reading today, a study showing what was the phrase? It was like, Significant benefit in nitrous oxide in Birmingham from the clean air zone. You know, much debated in Birmingham and delayed, aid, but I'd love to see more results like that where people like, the air is cleaner, the roads are quieter, the roads are clearer. We're We're still getting around and, you know, able to go about our family or or or commercial business, and, you know, that that's enabled by a A bit of a shift into more sustainable transport.

Liz Allan [00:43:16]:

I like that answer. That's a very, very good answer. Thank you.

Chris Rimmer [00:43:21]:

Well, let's see. I'll come back on in 7 years' time, and you can say, Chris, you said this. Look look at all the things that didn't happen

Liz Allan [00:43:27]:

all the time. No. No. We'll go. Look at all the things that did happen. Come on. Right. So getting get us to Cenex.

Liz Allan [00:43:35]:

Your the website is Cenex, c e n e x, dot co dot u k. Chris, where do people find you if they actually want to have a chat with you specifically or your

Chris Rimmer [00:43:44]:

team? Yeah. I mean, we've got a contact form, and and the folks on The front desk are really good at putting it through to us. They just say, oh, I heard Chris wittering on about transport again, and we'd like to talk about x. I am on LinkedIn, so, look me up, Chris Rimmer. And if you're coming well, if you come, to LCV, our big event that happens in September. You probably will be after this goes out. So let's invite you to September 2024. We'd be delighted to have a coffee.

Chris Rimmer [00:44:12]:

But we're in and around conferences and other things. So, Yeah. Happy to to chat and to discuss and, yeah, to learn. There's a lot of good stuff going out there and going on out there, and always interesting to hear what other people are up

Liz Allan [00:44:24]:

to. And And everybody can sign up for your newsletter. So news and events is on your website. You've got a newsletter on there that goes out, haven't you? So so, yeah, there's there's lots of ways, and I can see you're you're also on Twitter. So I I mean, not you personally, but Senex are also on Twitter. So just to say thank you ever so much for joining me. It's been it's been an absolute delight talking to you. I think you're doing some stick things with within the organization.

Liz Allan [00:44:52]:

You and your teams, just keep doing what you're doing. And and never think that you're not doing good things because you are. And, you know, and and everybody's gonna see that for what it is because of the effort you're putting in.

Chris Rimmer [00:45:05]:

Well, it's very kind of you, Liz, and thanks for your time and letting me on. And, Yeah. It's been a pleasure

Liz Allan [00:45:11]:

chatting. Thank you. Thank you. Brilliant. Well, listen. I'm gonna say thank you to you. I'm gonna say goodbye to everybody else. So until next time, I'm gonna say goodbye.

Liz Allan [00:45:20]:

See you later. Bye. Bye.