Liz Allan [00:00:03]:
So, on today's episode, I've got Sebastian Fleischhacker, the Central Roaming Manager at Spirii. They're based in Denmark and founded in 2019, and I've met Sebastian a few times at various events, along with Neil Svendsen. Thank you for joining me, Sebastian.

Sebastian Fleischhacker [00:00:25]:
Thank you for having me.

Liz Allan [00:00:28]:
You're also speaking to me from about 45 kilometres away from Barcelona.

Sebastian Fleischhacker [00:00:34]:
Yes.

Liz Allan [00:00:35]:
You are quite the international man, aren't you?

Sebastian Fleischhacker [00:00:37]:
Yeah, I was born that way. I grew up in about 7 or 8 countries, so I'm from nowhere. I'm a citizen of the world.

Liz Allan [00:00:49]:
How many languages do you speak?

Sebastian Fleischhacker [00:00:55]:
I speak Catalan because I live in Catalonia, French, Portuguese, German, Spanish, and English. That’s six in total.

Liz Allan [00:01:17]:
Wow! I manage English and a bit of Yorkshire.

Sebastian Fleischhacker [00:01:22]:
I love listening to your podcast and trying to identify the accents. It’s really cool.

Liz Allan [00:01:33]:
Bless you. So, what was your professional journey before you joined Spirii?

Sebastian Fleischhacker [00:02:35]:
I studied documentary filmmaking and worked in the Spanish Hollywood-like industry for about 10-11 years. But after the 2008 crash, I had to leave Spain and move to Germany. I returned to my hometown, but my wife, who’s Brazilian, struggled to adapt to the German climate and culture. So, we moved back, and I ended up selling electricity and gas contracts door-to-door. It was tough, but it made cold-calling a lot easier later on.

Liz Allan [00:04:27]:
That sounds shocking! So, what brought you to Spirii?

Sebastian Fleischhacker [00:04:34]:
I bought an electric vehicle about 9 years ago, making me one of Spain's early adopters. I got deeply involved in EV advocacy, testing EVs, and mystery shopping to understand the market. Eventually, I studied the field for about 4 years, connected with others on social media, and worked with an NGO. From there, I moved into the electric mobility sector, working for Electromaps, and later, I joined Spirii to lead the roaming division.

Liz Allan [00:06:52]:
Can you explain what roaming is for those who may not be familiar with the term, especially in relation to EV charging?

Sebastian Fleischhacker [00:07:27]:
Roaming is similar to how your phone works when you're abroad. Your network provider doesn't have antennas everywhere, but roaming agreements allow you to use local networks. The same goes for EV charging – I can charge at stations run by other operators because of roaming agreements that allow me to access their networks, provide payment, and customer support. This works both ways – I want my users to access other networks, and I want users from other networks to charge on my stations.

Liz Allan [00:09:41]:
So, interoperability means it works in both directions. What territories do you operate in, and who are your customers?

Sebastian Fleischhacker [00:10:25]:
We operate in 18 countries, with about 5,000 chargers on our back end. Our chargers are spread across Europe, including locations in Mauritius and Cyprus. Our clients range from utilities to real estate, fleets, and hardware manufacturers.

Liz Allan [00:11:58]:
You also mentioned Spirii’s app earlier. Can you discuss that and how you customise it for different clients?

Sebastian Fleischhacker [00:12:21]:
Yes, we offer a white-label solution for larger corporations that want their branding on the app. For example, if you wanted to launch "Liz Allan Charging," we could build that for you. We work with various industries and partners, from charge point operators to hardware manufacturers.

Liz Allan [00:13:59]:
And who are your partners? Are they mostly charge point operators or OEMs?

Sebastian Fleischhacker [00:14:00]:
We cover a wide range of industries, including oil and gas, energy utilities, real estate, commercial parking, and fleets. We also collaborate closely with hardware manufacturers who need a management system behind their machines to handle user groups, tariffs, and other features.

Liz Allan [00:15:12]:
You’re helping with charger utilization by making them accessible to multiple users. Can you also control pricing dynamically?

Sebastian Fleischhacker [00:15:36]:
Yes, we can. We use dynamic pricing based on grid data to control costs, ensuring that users always pay the best rate possible. This protects charge point owners from market fluctuations and offers transparency for users.

Liz Allan [00:16:53]:
How common is dynamic pricing in the UK?

Sebastian Fleischhacker [00:16:56]:
It’s not widespread yet, but we’re working on it. We’re connected with the biggest EMSPs in Europe, but many still struggle with implementing dynamic pricing in their apps.

Liz Allan [00:19:02]:
Which countries are leading the way in dynamic pricing and EV charging technology?

Sebastian Fleischhacker [00:19:24]:
Germany and the Nordics are ahead when it comes to dynamic pricing. In the UK, you’ve had it at home with companies like Octopus, which has done a lot for the evolution of electricity consumption and grid stability.

Liz Allan [00:20:30]:
What parts of the EV charging system do you not handle at Spirii?

Sebastian Fleischhacker [00:20:56]:
We don’t handle things like payment processing directly. However, we offer a range of services through our app, including managing home and workplace chargers, handling customer loyalty programmes, and employee reimbursement in some countries like the Netherlands.

Liz Allan [00:22:13]:
Can you give a bit more detail on employee reimbursement in the Netherlands?

Sebastian Fleischhacker [00:22:44]:
Yes, in the Netherlands, employees often receive a card from their employer that covers the cost of charging, even at home. It’s a common benefit, and employees are very particular about not overpaying by even a small amount.

Liz Allan [00:23:55]:
So, what other solutions do you provide?

Sebastian Fleischhacker [00:23:55]:
Our Charge Point Management System (CPMS) allows operators to manage their charging infrastructure, including user groups, tariffs, and access control. We can also manage home chargers, workplace chargers, and public charging. We offer customer support in multiple languages and handle billing for clients, either under our name or theirs.

Liz Allan [00:24:26]:
And you mentioned dynamic pricing earlier. What other innovative services are you offering?

Sebastian Fleischhacker [00:26:09]:
We recently introduced flexibility services, which help manage the grid more efficiently. For example, in areas where grid infrastructure is weak, we can help avoid turning on coal plants by offering flexible demand response and frequency regulation services. This helps stabilise the grid without the need for additional power plants.

Liz Allan [00:28:12]:
Is that similar to vehicle-to-grid (V2G) technology?

Sebastian Fleischhacker [00:28:50]:
It’s somewhat similar but focuses on adjusting the speed at which electricity is delivered to the battery. It’s about providing the grid with power in a flexible way to avoid overloading.

Liz Allan [00:29:17]:
You mentioned that Spirii is now part of the Edenred Group. What does that mean for your business?

Sebastian Fleischhacker [00:30:10]:
Edenred operates in 45 countries and has a long history in the mobility and fuel card sector. Many of their customers are transitioning to electric fleets, and we were chosen to help them with that. It’s an exciting opportunity for us to expand.

Liz Allan [00:31:00]:
Are the founders of Spirii still involved in the company?

Sebastian Fleischhacker [00:31:22]:
Yes, the founders are still very much involved and will continue to be part of the team as we move forward with Edenred.

Liz Allan [00:32:28]:
I also saw on your website that you're working with Hubject on Plug & Charge. Can you explain what Plug & Charge is?

Sebastian Fleischhacker [00:33:29]:
Plug & Charge allows EV drivers to charge their cars by simply plugging in, without the need for an app or card. It’s similar to the Tesla experience but works across all OEMs and hardware manufacturers. The system uses secure, encrypted communication to handle payments and authorisations.

Liz Allan [00:36:09]:
Does Plug & Charge work with all vehicles and charge points?

Sebastian Fleischhacker [00:36:45]:
It depends on whether the hardware and software are certified. If both the vehicle and the charge point are certified, then it works seamlessly. Not all manufacturers have adopted it yet, but it’s growing.

Liz Allan [00:39:33]:
Do you think Plug & Charge will simplify charging, especially in the UK?

Sebastian Fleischhacker [00:40:06]:
Absolutely. The UK could benefit from more widespread use of Plug & Charge, but it requires open-mindedness from the operators and a willingness to adopt new technologies.

Liz Allan [00:41:28]:
As EV drivers in the UK, we don't always know what we're missing regarding better charging experiences. How do we improve that?

Sebastian Fleischhacker [00:43:02]:
That’s a great point. The EV market needs to be more open to trying different solutions from other countries. What works in one market could be adapted to improve the customer journey in the UK.

Liz Allan [00:46:38]:
Speaking of the customer journey, I recently had an experience in France where I ended up with a huge bill after charging. How do we make pricing more transparent?

Sebastian Fleischhacker [00:48:50]:
It comes down to more transparent communication about tariffs. Some places, like Italy, offer a grace period before extra charges kick in after a vehicle has finished charging. There needs to be a balance between encouraging people to move on and providing clear, upfront pricing information.

Liz Allan [00:51:37]:
That information wasn’t visible on the charger. Shouldn't that be more transparent?

Sebastian Fleischhacker [00:51:53]:
Yes, and regulations like the AFIR are working on that. They will require more price transparency at charging stations so users can see exactly what they’ll be paying before they start charging.

Liz Allan [00:54:00]:
What’s your take on using credit cards to charge payments?

Sebastian Fleischhacker [00:54:13]:
While it seems convenient, it adds complexity and costs for charge point operators. It also doesn’t provide the same customer support level as an app, especially when things go wrong during charging.

Liz Allan [00:55:14]:
I thought the UK only accepted debit cards for contactless payments. Is that true?

Sebastian Fleischhacker [00:54:30]:
No, both credit and debit cards can be used. However, using business debit cards, which act like credit cards, can add another layer of complexity.

Liz Allan [00:57:39]:
Looking ahead to 2030, what changes would you like to see in the EV charging industry?

Sebastian Fleischhacker [00:58:37]:
I don’t think we need an internal combustion engine ban. Price parity between EVs and traditional vehicles is happening now, so market forces will drive the change. I’d like to see more cooperation between countries to adopt best practices and improve global charging infrastructure.

Liz Allan [01:00:29]:
You mentioned earlier that the UK is a bit behind in roaming and infrastructure development. How do we catch up?

Sebastian Fleischhacker [01:00:44]:
The UK needs to open up its charging infrastructure and learn from countries that are further ahead. A protectionist mindset is still slowing things down, and we need to be more open to trying new solutions.

Liz Allan [01:03:13]:
You’ve made some excellent points. Sebastian, it's been fantastic having you on. Thank you for fitting me in during your move!

Sebastian Fleischhacker [01:05:47]:
Thank you! It was great talking to you, Liz. Now, back to moving some furniture.

Liz Allan [01:06:07]:
Thanks again, Sebastian. And to everyone listening and watching, I'll see you next time.