Liz Allan  [00:00:01]:
Today's episode features Pete Clutton-Brock, the CEO of Yottar and a co-founder of the Centre for AI and Climate, which is quite remarkable. So, thank you for joining me, Pete.

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:00:17]:
Thanks very much for having me. It's great to be here.

Liz Allan  [00:00:19]:
Now I think everybody's watching and listening. You're going to find this really interesting because some of the topics we've just been discussing are particularly noteworthy. What Pete and Yottar are doing is really interesting when we're talking about grids and grid connections here. So, Pete, let's start off with giving me a little bit of your background. You know, I always do this. You've listened to some of the episodes yourself because it's, it's good to hear what you've done before and why you started. Yotta.

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:00:56]:
Absolutely. I've a somewhat eclectic background, but I've been working on energy and climate issues for the past 18 years or so. Basically, my entire career to date. The first half of my career was in policy. So I worked for places like the Department for Energy and Climate Change, the Treasury, the energy team there, and the Department for International Development. And there I was, really focused on big, large-scale policies, thinking about how to push forward renewable generation and things like that. But then I left in 2014 and got into consultancy. So I set up my own consultancy working with a range of corporates on their energy and climate strategies, did a bunch of work with some of the big tech majors like Amazon and Google on their climate and energy strategies, and then got super interested in the application of data science and machine learning to energy and climate change challenges.

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:01:45]:
And so it felt like the best thing to do was to set up an organisation to explore that. Sort of my avenue to assuage my curiosity, really. So we set up something called the Centre for AI and Climate with a range of other machine learning experts and explored that space, looked at what both the opportunities were to deploy AI in the energy and climate space, but also what some of the barriers were. And chief amongst those barriers was access to good quality data. And so I ended up going around the energy sector, talking to everyone I could about where there were unmet needs for good quality data that could be used in the future for machine learning models. And what was interesting is that again and again, I kept hearing that there was one type of data where everyone wanted better data. It was an acute and unmet need, and that was data related to the grid. And that sort of common but broadly stated need tweaked my entrepreneurial antennae and made me think, okay, there's something really interesting going on there, let's jump in.

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:02:45]:
And that was what the initial impetus behind Yotta. So at Yotta, we're effectively helping people understand where there's spare capacity on the grid. So we're working with a range of organisations, yes, on EV, helping people understand where there are spaces for EV chargers, but also a range of other assets, whether it's generation or demand or batteries. Also, new things like data centres are popping up as well, but really a focus on the clean energy assets and helping people understand where they can get good grid connections without having to pay vast amounts of money to upgrade the networks and wait a long time to do so.

Liz Allan  [00:03:21]:
And this is amazing. And actually, looking at when you started the centre for AI and Climate, that was back in 2019, before we started even hitting a peak of AI. And people who've been listening to this know that I'm a bit of an AI advocate. You know, I am an AI advocate myself, which sounds counterintuitive since I'm married to a climate scientist. And we know, we know that AI takes up quite a bit of energy, but I do think that there's, there's a, you know, there's a lot of capability building with, with kind of AI. Anyway, what was it like when you started in 2019 and actually looking at those, you know, building this capability with AI? It was very, very early days, wasn't it? You know, how did it, how did that bit, if we kind of, kind of go on to that bit first and then move on to Yotta? Because I'm assuming, like you say, that's how it fed into one another. How was it to start off with?

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:04:21]:
Yeah, it was really interesting. And this was before large language models were really popularised and before ChatGPT was a thing. So no one really knew the direction of travel AI would take. And there were a lot of people in the space at the time who didn't think it would live up to the hype and thought it would sort of fizzle out. And so, yeah, a lot has changed since 2019. When we first set that up, I think there were a lot of very specific use cases which were identified, doing things like time series analysis, looking to provide better forecasts for things like solar generation to inform things like the supply and demand of energy on the grid. So a whole range of different ideas were being talked about, but it was really Formative, and people were just exploring the space for the first time and really understanding what was possible. And I think since then, you've seen where the use cases are more viable and also seen where they're not.

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:05:17]:
And you've also seen the rise of gen AI and large language models, which have become much more widespread and just fed into pretty much every part of the economy at the moment. And I think, you know, are being used by, yes, people to support climate action in some ways, but also everyone throughout the economy to do more with their jobs. So I think, yeah, it's been an interesting time to be part of that conversation, and I think we're just getting going. It's still so early in the conversation on AI and where it goes.

Liz Allan  [00:05:49]:
I think, to be honest, if it's anything to do, you know, I see AI as a really positive way of improving productivity, you know, because, because there are certain things that it, it can, you know, you can use it for across so many different areas and actually just that it's just going to go from strength to strength, isn't it? Over, over the time. But, but so how have you used that ability to utilise AI in Yotta kind of then? Or, you know, because I mean data is, is like you said, it, it's, it's not always that easy to get hold of. Has it been, has it been easier since AI has been developing? Is that kind of what you've, you've kind of had to move to, or are you kind of using a mixture of all of the usual ways of collecting data and a bit of AI thrown in?

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:06:45]:
Yeah, and I think when it comes to the grid, what we have seen is, is more and better data being provided. So, aside from maybe in parallel to the rise of AI, you've seen a big push for digitisation around the grid. So you've seen various processes led by the energy systems catapult, such as the Energy Data Task Force and the Energy Digitalization Task Force, which have really opened up, well, pushed the electricity networks to open up more and better data, which has allowed us as the author to do what we're doing. So I think that that's been a really interesting progression where you've seen this realization that there's a huge amount of opportunity that can be unlocked both with data science and machine learning, but also more generally by digital innovators and that can allow people to do, to access the data better, but also to do more with it, to inform their infrastructure strategies and it becomes a core unlocker of a lot of value, throughout the economy. Because everyone relies on electricity, everyone relies, you know, a lot. Basically, every large commercial organisation needs to connect assets to the grid in some way, shape or form.

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:07:49]:
And being able to understand where it is possible to do that and get access to that data is increasingly valuable.

Liz Allan  [00:07:56]:
So, what are you currently seeing? We'll talk about, like I say, the different. You've kind of given me a little bit of an idea of how people are. A little bit of an idea about who you're looking at. But what are you currently seeing? Because, and we said this before we started recording, that if everybody electrified now, that's kind of, you know, it's going to put a massive strain on the grid, isn't it? No matter what anybody kind of says. But, but where, what areas are? What I'm trying to say. How am I trying to say this? What areas are good, and which areas are kind of like black holes, really?

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:08:37]:
Yeah. And maybe just before we dive into areas and I think what we're seeing is, as you say, we're just at the start of this huge transition and I think it is useful to step back and remind ourselves of that because I know I've been in this space for a long time and in my bubble it feels like we're very much partway through this transition. But actually, I think it's useful to step back and remind ourselves we are still so early on, I think, take EVs for example. I believe we currently have approximately 1.3 million EVs on the roads. That's about 3.7% of total cars. Vans, I think it's like 800,000, which is about 1.6% of vans. HGVs are basically non-existent. That's maybe a few hundred test ones.

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:09:21]:
So we are still super early in the transition. But yet I think what's interesting is we do have increasingly strong policy mechanisms that are pushing us to do that transition faster. So things like the zero emission vehicle mandate, within five years, we're not going to be able to. People will no longer be able to buy ICE internal combustion engine cars and vans. And I think that's going to be a huge wake-up call because at the moment, on average, in the UK, people buy between 2 and 2.5 million cars every year. That's potentially twice as many EVs as there are in existence on UK roads at the moment in any one year. So we're going to see a massive increase fairly rapidly, and we're anticipating, you know, if you project that forward, we expect to get to something like maybe not exactly, but close to 90% of vehicles becoming electric by 2040. So this 15-year period between now and 2040 is going to see this vast change in infrastructure of, well, first of all, in vehicles, but then in terms of the infrastructure required to support those vehicles.

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:10:31]:
So we're going to see charging have to ramp up massively to meet that demand. And that's going to cause a huge amount of, put a huge amount of capacity on the grid, which the grid isn't necessarily currently designed to accommodate. So if you look at the forecast of what that's going to do to capacity throughout different electricity networks, you see it just eating up capacity very rapidly. And that's going to cause a lot of problems both for the networks that have to manage that increase in demand and find ways of absorbing that capacity, but also for people looking to develop assets who are saying, okay, where can I get capacity? Where can I find locations? Because ultimately it's going to become scarcer and scarcer. What we say is that there is no better time to find spare capacity on the grid than now. And it's only going to become more challenging as we go down this 15-year period.

Liz Allan  [00:11:22]:
Because we're also looking at the time delays with the grids, with the grid anyway, aren't we? You know, the length of time that it takes for any kind of organisation that wants to electrify to actually get, you know, get a grid connection live. It's been such a long time. You know, if we're looking at solar farms or we're looking at wind farms or whatever, it takes a long, long, isn't it?

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:11:51]:
Absolutely. And I think the constraints have come fastest in these very high voltage connections. So things like large solar farms, often you're seeing connection dates in the late 2030s for those kinds of assets. We've got a range of connection forms that are hopefully going to bring those dates forward. But still, you're looking at significant time delays. And what I think we're seeing as well is that with the rise of additional demand based assets at the lower voltage level, such as EV charging, we're anticipating the current connection times that people are being offered now to extend and expand because of the constraints that are going to come more and more at those lower voltage levels as well. I think that, whereas we've seen those at the big solar farm level, there is a risk that time delays also start to occur at the EV charging level as well. Gosh.

Liz Allan  [00:12:41]:
And that's. That'd be, that'd be, I don't want to say the word catastrophic, but it's not, it's, it's kind of on those, on those, on that kind of way, isn't it? So, at the moment, you are currently working with a number of different organisations, aren't you? Where do you see yourself? So let's just talk about who you're currently working with, because you said to me before we were recording, one of the, one of the organizations is kind of the NHS. You've got ChargePoint operators and people like that. Who's, who are coming to you and who should be coming to you? Oh, my question is, my question really?

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:13:23]:
Yeah, I think we see a couple of different categories. So we see people who are trying to develop assets, so people like the charge point operators. One of our users is Tesla. They're looking to use us to find locations for supercharger hubs for their for their supercharger hub rollout. At the moment, they're putting in lots of applications to find sites, but ultimately accepting a fairly high attrition level, a high failure rate for their applications, because a lot of them just come back as non-viable from the networks. So they then have to pay a lot of money for those grid applications, and we're basically helping them, trying to focus their efforts on sites that are more viable and that helps them minimise their spend and improve their success rates. So yeah, people developing assets is one category. I guess the other category is landlords, landowners who have lots and lots of sites potentially and are looking to either put in EV charging as a form of revenue or help meet their carbon targets. And there, what we see is that there's a need to assess grid capacity across a wide range of sites.

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:14:30]:
And so, so what we can do is we can upload all of their sites into our platform and help them automatically assess where there's grid capacity across the whole of their portfolio. And that saves them tons of time and helps them identify those locations where there is capacity and avoid focusing on those where there isn't.

Liz Allan  [00:14:47]:
So I think both. Go on. Sorry, go on.

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:14:50]:
And landowners are sort of the two core categories that we see, but then we see a wide range of different types of developers. EV is definitely one. But we're seeing people want to talk to us about batteries, about solar farms, about data centres, about all these different technology types that are starting to bubble up more and more.

Liz Allan  [00:15:11]:
Because I was going to say what you're really doing is stopping them from throwing away money, aren't you? Even Though they're having to pay, you know, pay for your services, but actually if you can give them critical information that stops them from putting an application or 10 applications in and getting, you know, paying 10 application fees when they only get one site, then actually, you know, the offset for it should be so, you know, it's so valuable, isn't it, for this.

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:15:42]:
That's. And that's our proposition. So, yeah, that's what we like to tell people. But yes, and ultimately we are looking to try and accelerate the rollout of. Of clean energy assets. And that's definitely one of our goals. And partly that's about helping them save money. It's partly just allowing them to assess more sites more quickly so that they can find the right one for their assets.

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:16:00]:
Because going site by site and in a very manual way isn't the ideal approach. So if we can automate that and enable them to scale it more quickly and more rapidly, we think we can help them actually bring forward their rollouts in a significant way. So that's. Yeah, we basically see grid as, you know, we're going through this broad electrification super cycle at the moment where tons of different assets are wanting to connect, that is creating constraints on the grid and if we can help people navigate the congestion. Because grid congestion isn't universal, it's not geographically uniform. It varies very much from location to location according to the capacity of different bits of grid infrastructure. So, whether it's cables or substations, the capacity of these types of assets to deal with new forms of demand or generation will determine whether or not you can get a particular developer or a grid connection that works for them. And so if we can show people very visually where there is capacity and where they can develop their assets without having to wait for lots of upgrades.

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:17:02]:
Yeah. That can hopefully accelerate their rollouts.

Liz Allan  [00:17:05]:
Brilliant. So I have another question. I often discuss the kind of misinformation, but this is similar to misconceptions. What are the biggest misconceptions that you encounter when it comes to the kind of data, specifically in this transition? What do people think about data? Do they kind of take it for granted? What is the biggest misconception?

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:17:33]:
Biggest misconception when it comes to data? I think. I think the biggest misconception is that. And I think what we're seeing is just this huge transition to where data is being more available and the power of data. And maybe that's not a misconception, but I think at the moment it's been the case that the data that we need to make these decisions. Well, hasn't been available, and I think people are seeing more and more data coming out from the electricity networks. It's not perfect at the moment. And at the moment, I think there's a little bit of questioning of some of the data. So the heat maps that the networks put out are a little bit questioned in terms of their accuracy.

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:18:16]:
There are perhaps misconceptions around how they should be interpreted because not all of the data that they put out is comprehensive. And so sometimes, when they don't map across to the grid connection offer that an organisation receives, maybe the recipient thinks that that data isn't accurate. Actually, it can be accurate, it's just not telling the whole picture. And so what we're doing over time is building up more and more of that whole picture of what's going on in the grid so that we can inform, get more and more reduce the delta between what people think they can get at a particular location and what they actually can get with a grid offer. So that's what we're trying to do.

Liz Allan  [00:18:55]:
But I suppose what we're also talking about here is kind of the difference between high-quality data and low-quality data, aren't we? Because it's that, that, that level of, you know, accuracy is so, so important. So you've kind of said that in certain areas it might be a bit lacking, depending on who it is. What is the knock-on effect of not having that high-quality data?

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:19:26]:
Yeah, I know the way I characterise it is different. So in the UK we've got six main distribution networks and then three main transmission networks. With the distribution networks, they are all being increasingly encouraged by Ofgem, the regulator, to put out more and better data. They all do it in a slightly different way. So all the data that they put out is in a slightly different format, slightly different feel, slightly different characteristics. It's available in slightly different versions, on different licenses, potentially. And that makes it really hard to sort of piece together and put into a fully standardised model. But that's a lot of the value that we're trying to do as a business.

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:20:07]:
So I think that's a big part of it. But I think more generally, I think the accuracy of the data is really related to its comprehensiveness it. So often, the data may well be accurate, and I think one of the things that we see ourselves doing is creating a little bit of a feedback loop to the electricity network. So when people see that something doesn't look quite right, or a substation is maybe flagged in slightly the wrong position. They can flag that with us, and we can then flag it with the DNOs, the distribution networks, and create a feedback loop to the DNOs to hopefully create a positive cycle of improving data over time. But ultimately, data accuracy is everything. So as with everything, the input defines the output. And so if you can get good quality data, you can get a better and more accurate result with what you're trying to achieve.

Liz Allan  [00:21:01]:
So, okay, how easy is it to innovate when you're working with massive behemoths? I don't know whether that's the right pronunciation, but big behemoth companies like, you know, the grid network under you, how you are an agile, a young agile organisation, but you're, you know, it's. I'm not saying that they're all blockers, but how easy is it for you to kind of get them to think about innovation in the same way that you do?

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:21:38]:
Yeah, and I think what you'll find is these big organisations are made up of people, and I think that there are some people within these organisations who would love to move fast and do more. Ultimately, I think that being a large organisation does inherently make them a little bit conservative with a small C in the sense that they don't do things super quickly. Although credit to the networks, they are trying and they are looking to improve their data provision, they're looking to help customers, and in part that's being driven because they do have incentives to do so from Ofgem. So I think it's not a universal picture of, you know, big organisations, slow, bad, etc. There's a little bit of a mix of what the networks are doing. I think there is, you know, we are obviously pushing them to move faster and provide us with more and better data so that we can really we can provide a better service to our users. That is an ongoing conversation. We have good relationships with a bunch of the networks, and so we build on that and help them understand that what we're doing will actually help them.

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:22:45]:
Because ultimately, at the moment, we're trying to help them help our users putting in grid applications to focus on the sites where they're more likely to be able to get a good grid offer that will hopefully avoid so many spurious grid applications being put in sites where there just isn't capacity and reduce those kind of grid applications. So if we can do that, we think we can actually reduce the workload of the networks and help them focus on applications which are more likely to be taken up by the applicant.

Liz Allan  [00:23:18]:
That makes so much sense because. What did they call them? I wrote an article about this a while ago. It's not ghost applications, but it's basically saying that, you know, the applications, when they put them in, are so spurious that they shouldn't really be in there, and they don't tick half of the boxes. But I think that's kind of changed in the pecking order now, hasn't it? It's kind of the way that it is. That's that. Those applications are dealt with.

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:23:47]:
Yeah. And I think certainly there have been some reforms to the. How grid applications and connections are managed, and certainly at the. Especially at the higher voltage levels, you're seeing what are called zombie projects being picked up.

Liz Allan  [00:23:58]:
That's the one. Zombie projects, not ghosts. I was kind of on that sort of, you know. Yeah. Get it.

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:24:05]:
So there. I think this is especially the case for larger projects, things like solar farms. What you're seeing is. Yeah. You're seeing milestone requirements being put in place so that any project that has a grid connection has to meet certain milestones in order to retain its position. Position in the queue. So it'll have to meet things like planning milestones, whether it's maybe financing milestones and a range of other milestones to maintain its position. And if it doesn't, then it's potentially at risk of being kicked out of the queue.

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:24:35]:
So that will potentially reduce the queues significantly. One of the big things there that we're seeing is land rights. So, a lot of grid connection applications previously didn't necessarily have to demonstrate that they had consent from the landowner in order to get their position in the queue. And so what we've heard situations with solar farms where they've. Where a landowner has put in a grid application on their own land to put a solar farm in, and found that there are 16 other people in the queue ahead of him who have put in grid applications on their land without his consent. So you do hear these stories like that where you think, okay, there's probably a lot of projects that maybe are going to get kicked out of the country. You.

Liz Allan  [00:25:14]:
Oh, my God. Oh, that's ridiculous, isn't it? Oh, yeah, I can imagine that I'd be. That would just drive you. Drive you spare if you were. If you were kind of trying to put something like that in, and people haven't even asked your permission. My God. And you're down the. Down that pecking order again.

Liz Allan  [00:25:34]:
But if we, if we look at the different sectors that you're working across, so your Heat, power and transport. How would you like to see these sectors come together in future? I know data's key for you anyway, but how would you like to see the kind of, the data sharing or you know, kind of what, what make, what would make the best, the most important and maybe the easiest change for you as an organization?

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:26:09]:
Yeah, and I, I don't think we necessarily need to see any sort of policy change or anything like that in this space. I think this is often about the organisation-level optimisation of how you put in different asset types. So maybe take the NHS as an example, they're looking to decarbonise rapidly, they've got ambitious targets to do. So they're looking to decarbonise their vehicle fleet. So they're looking to put in electric ambulances, but also all of their ancillary vehicles and support customer charging at their locations. They're also looking to put in to electrify heat and cooking at their sites as well. So, putting in potentially large-scale heat pumps and moving away from gas cooking and things like that, that will all increase demand at their locations. And they need to kind of aggregate that up and realise that okay, maybe I don't have sufficient client capacity at that site at the moment, maybe I need to put in a grid application to get more capacity at my locations.

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:27:07]:
But there you are, then trying to think about the optimal technology mix for that particular site. And you might want a certain amount of capacity for charging, you might want some rooftop solar, you might want some large-scale heat pumps. But then you might actually say okay, there's not sufficient capacity to, there's not grid capacity at the moment to meet that demand. Then I may need to put in a battery to enable me to smooth out my peaks and avoid breaching the level, where I wouldn't need to, which would help avoid putting in upgrades to the grid. And so we need to create a two-way system between the optimal assets on site and the technologies mix that you're putting on relative to what's possible on the grid. And that's a sort of two-way conversation. And so that's where we're, what we're working with people like the NHS on is helping them think through what we should be putting where. And that's yeah, I think where we're seeing more and more value for large organisations that are looking to decarbonise, looking to put in extra assets and want insight on how the grid should be informing their strategy.

Liz Allan  [00:28:20]:
So bringing all of this together is such an important thing, isn't it? You know, are you also partnering with any organisations when you're recognising these gaps, say, for example? Right. You can't. There isn't enough capacity there, so you do need a battery. So, we're working, you know, we pass you on to these kinds of recommended organisations. Is that how it's kind of looking?

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:28:51]:
We're not yet, but that is, you know, somewhere we could get to in the future. And we ultimately, I think we do want to support the organizations we work with, like the nhs, to think through, okay, who would be good to get these, to actually deploy these assets or potentially help them do the procurement process to actually buy, you know, think about a competitive tender and run that for them relative to what's needed.

Liz Allan  [00:29:16]:
I mean, you're also. If we think about the kind of lack of grid capacity in certain areas, you're also giving organisations the ability to be able to look at where those gaps are and recognise where the need for potential lobbying is with government, you know, to push for new connections and things like that. Because if, like you say about the heat map or any gaps in that, once you're getting more on that map, you'll be able to see, and if there are people coming to you and saying, my goodness, we wanted to be there, but we can't because there's not enough capacity, then I'm assuming that that gives them the ability to be able to kind of lobby in the way that they, you know, that's important to them.

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:30:04]:
I think it's an invaluable context for conversations between industry and policymakers. So, I think if you can, if an industry can come to the government and say, this is the position in a more detailed way than we've tried to put in a grid application here, and it hasn't worked. If you can provide a strategic oversight of this is where there's capacity, this is where development is possible, this is where it's not. This is the issue that needs to be solved to accelerate the connection capacity in this area. This is our proposal. I think it comes across in a much better way than we've got this problem. We 're not getting good grid applications or grid offers. What can we do? I think if you can go with a bit of a solution, it makes sense.

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:30:46]:
To be honest, we haven't yet. Lobbying is not something we've got into yet. And thinking about those conversations with policymakers too much. And we have had interest actually from the government come to us and ask about what we can show them. So we have had conversations with people at number 10, people in the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero, and others about what is possible. There's definitely interest from policymakers, but we haven't yet entered the lobbying phase.

Liz Allan  [00:31:14]:
But it doesn't necessarily need to be down to you, does it, really? You just need to, you know, if you don't want to be involved in the lobbying yourself, you know, it can be the organizations that you're working and providing the information for that can do the lobbying, but you're giving them the, you're giving the insights to them and the, and the facts for them to be able to go to whoever they need to. So it doesn't have to be you. But I suppose in future it could be, it could be something that you're kind of. Well, we're hearing, you know, lots of people are asking about this specific area across various, you know, various kinds of asset types, but there isn't anything. So we'd like to let you know that there's a big gap here that you need to fill.

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:32:01]:
And I think exposing the data in a more, in an easier way to understand and interpret definitely will hopefully enable those conversations to be. To be more informed and enable people to have them in a way that's useful. So. Yeah, and if that's an ancillary outcome of what we're doing, that would be fantastic.

Liz Allan  [00:32:19]:
Exactly. I mean, you know, you are helping with people's strategy for all of this anyway, aren't you? You are. You know, the fact that you've got this data, you've got this information, it's. You are that hub that provides that information, you know, for them. So, so that, to me is, is a really, a really good thing. You're filling, you're filling that gap that I'm sure lots of people watching and listening to this have kind of thought, oh, my God, how do we do? How does this happen? How do X number of million people, you know, move over to all of these renewables, heat pumps, solar panels, all kinds of stuff that, that when, you know, in EVs, that we need to. How does the grid cope? Because you hear this misinformation as well, don't you? But it's, it's, it's about, it's about cutting, excuse me, but cutting through the crap and, and coming out with the truth.

Liz Allan  [00:33:17]:
And that's why I like to talk about it misinformation in the podcast, actually, because we deal with the crap, but you're telling the truth, which is priceless.

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:33:29]:
That's what we'd like to think now, and I think it is interesting to see how pylons have become a political issue. So it's interesting to hear that that is now a high-level political topic for discussion. I think ultimately, to get all of the net-zero assets connected that we need to, there will be a need for more pylons. But part of what we're saying is actually if we can help guide people, asset developers to underutilize bits of the network where there is more spare capacity, that actually means that you don't need to put in so many upgrades to the networks and actually that means that you can avoid putting in so many pylons or so many new cables and so on around the place. So hopefully we hope that what we're doing is helpful politically in that sense as well. We're ultimately creating a more efficient.

Liz Allan  [00:34:15]:
Energy system, which is, which is what, what we need. So if. I don't know whether we've actually answered this question, so I'm going to ask, I'm going to ask it because I think it's really important if we're, if we're talk, you know, like I said, we've talked about moving everybody over and kind of, you know, reducing the reliance on fossil fuels and moving over to electrification. How can we do this without crippling the grid?

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:34:41]:
Yeah, and it's a, that's the million-dollar question. In a way, it's a really good one. I think ultimately the grid is going to have to have a massive upgrade. We're going to have to see huge investments put into the networks over the next 20 years. There's no two ways about it. You're going to have to see, you know, more cables put in the ground, a lot more copper, a lot more pylons. You're going to have to see those physical assets put in. At the same time, you do need optimisation to make sure that you're only putting in those very expensive assets where you absolutely need to, and you're creating a system that's optimised.

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:35:17]:
So that's where we see ourselves coming in, so that you're not overinvesting in the infrastructure relative to what's needed. But ultimately, there's going to be a combination of the two. You're going to have to put in more capital assets, more pylons, more copper at all levels of the network, and that includes both the larger transmission pylons. It also means we'll probably need to upgrade the vast majority of our smaller substations and potentially the cables that run under our everyday streets. So all of those will need to be upgraded to recognise the fact that actually we're putting a lot more through our electricity system now, especially given that we're electrifying transport and heat, and we've got new forms of demand coming into the electricity system, data centres and so on. So I think we just need to reflect that with our infrastructure. However, we need to do so in a way that's extremely efficient, so that we're not spending vast amounts of money on these extremely expensive capital assets. But we don't need to.

Liz Allan  [00:36:11]:
No, I think that's really important. And actually, do you know what? I'm going to move on to an article that, a post that you put on a few weeks ago now on LinkedIn. There's been, there's a couple and I found them really interesting. Actually. I think that's probably when I started kind of going, thinking, oh, Pete's quite interesting, I'll get him on the podcast. But there was, there's one. And this, this follows on quite nicely from what we were talking about. It was talking about after the local elections and one of the parties that have got in now, who are talking about fighting the development of solar farms, battery storage and pylons.

Liz Allan  [00:36:48]:
I know we've just been talking about this, but what are your thoughts now? This is kind of like a few weeks ago, it's about a month ago that you wrote this. What are your thoughts? Following on from just writing, writing that. Is it still the same? Do you, you know, do you want to just summarise your article first, if you don't mind?

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:37:11]:
Yeah, I'll try to. So this was when reform had done very well in the local elections. And the following morning, after they'd done well, they essentially stated that they'd make it incredibly difficult for developers to build things like solar farms, pylons, and battery storage assets in the councils where they'd majorities. And so I was looking, my article on LinkedIn was basically looking at how possible it is for them to hold back those developments. And I think the sort of tldr, the short summary of the answer, is it's possible for them to slow down the development of those assets. But actually, we've got quite strong national-level policy positions on these assets that make it hard for them to stop them completely, so they can potentially reject them when they come to the planning committee. But if those assets then go to appeal at a national level, then there is likely to be strong support, there's likely to be support for them that would make it hard for them to block completely. But it is for developers developing assets, considering that they are developing them in council areas where reform has a majority, you just need to be aware that you may need to extend your project scope and timelines to accommodate the likelihood of needing to go to appeal.

Liz Allan  [00:38:38]:
Which, yeah, I mean, hopefully things change and they, they see that there's more, more positives than negatives in that. You know, I know that not everybody likes to see pylons and stuff like that, but when you're talking about the other sides of renewables, you know, kind of with, you know, with batteries and things that are going to support our energy security, that to me is invaluable. So hopefully they'll kind of recognise that.

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:39:13]:
Yeah, and they've been a little bit of a party of protest to date and I think what's going to be interesting is as they move into a party where they've got responsibilities to deliver for their constituents now, will they recognize that they need to be supporting jobs and clean energy and the transition to Nazareth is a massive opportunity to create high quality, good paying jobs. Are they going to try to kibosh those in their areas, and if so, what will their constituents think of that? I think we are seeing signs that they actually are. Some members of the party are thinking a bit more positively about the space. So yeah, it's going to be an interesting space to watch politically as they rise up the agenda.

Liz Allan  [00:39:51]:
Yeah, exactly. And we know that there's all sorts of, of where all sorts of movements going on there at the moment anyway, aren't there? The other one that I wanted to talk to you about was that there's another article around, probably around the same time, but it was about the blackouts in Spain and Portugal. And I think that probably kicked off a lot of conversations over here about oh blimey, if that's what's happening over there, then is that potentially what's going to happen over here? And et cetera, et cetera. And I think there was a lot of speculation about where it came from. And so you wrote the article about that. Do you want to just give me a little bit of a summary on that one as well?

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:40:31]:
Yeah, no, happy to. And I think it was another one of these times where it suddenly became a very high-profile issue, and yeah, it became front-page news, which is quite rare. I think what happened is that you had a couple of large disconnections. In other words, large power stations were disconnected from the grid in the southwest of Spain, and then that created a Problem which spread out and cascaded around the rest of the Iberian peninsula very rapidly and took out the whole of their grid for a 24-hour period.

Liz Allan  [00:41:07]:
Oh my God. And how were they disconnected then? How did it happen?  Has there been a root cause kind of identified?

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:41:17]:
Not yet. So there's an investigation underway and we are waiting to hear the outcome of that. I think it's going to be a little while, is my guess. I don't think it's going to be soon. But ultimately there are two key questions here, like what caused those initial disconnections and then secondly, why did it, why was the problem allowed to spread so quickly and rapidly? And what happened to their fail-safe mechanisms that stopped it from being stopped effectively? So I think those are two core issues. I think, you know, in terms of possible options, there's a range of options you can consider as to why that happened. I think it looks like you had large generation assets. It could have been solar farms be disconnected in the southwest of Spain.

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:42:01]:
That data hasn't been made public yet as to what exactly those facilities. I think the questions there that I, you know, you're looking at was there some technical fault that could have happened? I think that was one thing. I think that the grid operator came out very quickly and said that their systems hadn't been compromised and hadn't been hacked, but that didn't necessarily mean that things like solar farms couldn't have been hacked, which could have taken out the grid. So that, you know, ultimately we are seeing that risk increasing. You know, Russia has been attacking Ukrainian substations and, and Ukraine Ukrainian grid assets. So you could imagine some actors wanting to try and attack the Spanish grid. For some reason, that needs to be considered. So there is a range of technical and, sort of, yeah, non-technical answers to what caused that initial attack.

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:42:55]:
And then the second question is, what caused the wider grid to fail? And I think there, the ultimate cause seems to be some kind of voltage imbalance across the system,m which led to cascading impacts throughout the grid. Ultimately, the grid needs to be kept at a constant frequency, about 50 hertz, and that's how. And the supply and demand of electricity need to meet pretty much perfectly at every second of the day to maintain that frequency. And when you get an imbalance of frequency, assets start being taken off the grid, which has a further impact on frequency. And so you get this kind of cascade.

Liz Allan  [00:43:34]:
Gosh. So yeah, domino effect kind of thing.

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:43:39]:
Yeah, but it's, I think, you know what we're looking at, and I think a lot of people would be very quick to jump on the idea of blaming this on renewables. I think that's, that was a little bit of an easy, maybe people had a particular axe to grind for that. But ultimately, I think the question is how we create grids that are resilient and robust with renewables, because that feels like the only way forward. And there are ways of doing that. So, more battery assets to help maintain frequency and the range of better fail safes are needed to really think through how to stop problems like this, especially.

Liz Allan  [00:44:16]:
So really, we're looking at, especially the UK, taking lessons learned from this, aren't we? You know, I mean obviously like you say, Spain and Portugal are kind of doing their, their kind of investigations, but we as a country have got to, we've got to take our lessons learned from it, you know, and as they're doing their, their kind of due diligence on the problem, you know, and what happened, we've got to, we've got to still do ours and kind of, I suppose it's, it's, it's now not just a possibility. It's, you know, you, if things, something's happened, even if it's in another country, you've got to actually kind of go, okay, this is, this is at the top of my list. I've got to look at this now 100%.

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:44:57]:
I think this is, you know, keeping the grid, keeping the lights on is, you know, the top priority of any electricity grid. And so we have to make sure that we do, we are able to do that whilst also transitioning to net zero at the same time as well. So I think the question is how we create resilient zero-emission grids. That's the only path we can take. But I think there are a lot of conversations and a lot of lessons learned, as you say, from looking at the Spanish example. And there have been other blackouts around the world that we can learn from as well. So I think it's always worth looking at those kinds of events to see what we can learn.

Liz Allan  [00:45:33]:
So I'm going to ask you just a few final questions. A couple of final questions. One of them is, where would you like to see Yottar moving to? Or, you know, and what would you do in the next 12 to 18 months, what excites you about what Yottar could be doing?

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:45:54]:
Yeah, and I think I get really excited at the moment by what we're doing now in terms of just, we're seeing our software already being used to inform the rollouts of assets for large organisations like the NHS, like Tesla. They're already using us to help inform where they should be building their assets. So I already get a buzz from that. But I think more widely, I think thinking about how we can expand the usage of it, so more and more people are using it and optimizing their rollout of assets on the grid relative to where there's grid capacity, but then also helping them think through their actual workflow around grid and around related conversations around what technologies they should be putting in and how to optimize that. And I think the more we can be useful at all of that, the more, the better we'll do as a business. So ultimately, we're wanting to be useful and help organisations that are grappling with these challenges around the world. Rollouts of assets think through how they can accelerate and optimise their rollout. So they're making them as efficient as possible, making money off them where they can, and ultimately accelerating the transition to net zero, because that's why we set up Yotta in the first place.

Liz Allan  [00:47:07]:
And just a final, you've kind of answered some of that. My final question, but what does a truly equitable net-zero future look like to you?

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:47:21]:
When you say equitable, what do you mean?

Liz Allan  [00:47:22]:
Well, I suppose actually letting everybody, giving everybody the ability to move over to net zero. What would you like it to look like?

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:47:32]:
Yeah, and I think ultimately it feels like it has to be affordable if it's going to be equitable and not leave people behind or leave people paying bills that they can't afford to pay. And so I think what excites me about the transition now is that I think as you see the economies of scale start to really play a role, you are going to see costs come down. And we've seen this with solar, and it's going to continue with solar, but I think it's going to be the same with EVs. It will be the same with many of these technologies. As we go up the economies of scale, the cost of these assets can come down. And I think that makes them much more accessible, and it enables them to not be the, you know, just the, just something that middle-class or wealthy people do. But it can be something that everyone can participate in, and I think that's where we see mass adoption.

Liz Allan  [00:48:20]:
No, I totally agree with you. I think it's very, very important. And like you say, these things over time do come down in price. And yeah, we need everybody to feel that they're able to move forward, so yeah, on that note, I just want to say thank you. It's been really enlightening and really interesting to hear what you're doing, and I want to see this grow from strength to strength. I will share all of your contact details, you know the Yottar website and your LinkedIn profile information in the show notes, and if there's anything else you want me to add, then that's absolutely fine. But on that note, yeah, just, just thank you. Thank you for joining me.

Pete Clutton-Brock [00:49:04]:
Thank you very much for having me, Liz. It's been great.

Liz Allan  [00:49:07]:
So, to everybody else watching and listening, thank you. I always say this, please like, subscribe and share with all of your friends, family, you know, colleagues and whoever the podcast. Check out our LinkedIn page now for the Electric Evolution. And yeah, thank you for watching and listening, and I shall see you next time. Bye-bye.