Liz Allan  [00:00:00]:

Hi everyone, and welcome back to Electric Evolution. Today I have Rebecca Denyer, who's a wonderful, wonderful lady. We've spoken a few times already, and she's the co-founder of Sebring.

Liz Allan  [00:00:45]:
We're in a WhatsApp group called Women in EV, and you just came across to me as such a genuine, people-focused, people-centred person. Which totally rang wonderful bells for me. So, so let's, let's start off by talking about Rebecca. Who who are, are you? Where did you come from? What did you do before Sebring, which is a vehicle manufacturer? But you're just so perfect to talk about this.

Rebecca Denyer [00:01:14]:
Well, I've done a lot. So, um, originally a farmer's daughter, um, grew up in the countryside, um, was quite keen to flee the countryside and get into city life, um, so I did move quite soon, as soon as I could, and went into London, did a few jobs there. So I originally trained as an accountant, um, not because perhaps I wanted to be an accountant, partly because, unfortunately, I was a bit of an all-rounder and I loved maths, and I loved art. Not quite sure how you can combine the two, but I'm quite creative, but I ended up going down this professional route, and that was fun for a time. I mean, I was probably the most frustrating management accountant there was. I used to present my board figures as a comic book and the real book, the real management accounts pack. So, I was probably quite frustrating to work with, but I soon kind of moved into consulting. I kind of moved around a bit.

Rebecca Denyer [00:02:14]:
I ended up working in the public sector as well as the private sector, and long story short, I came back around and just got into marketing eventually, and then set up a creative agency. So I ran that for about 13 years, which was really, really fun. So my whole spectrum of kind of life has been able to encompass business strategy as well as finance, but understanding every single aspect of business. Um, and when I was a management consultant, I also did work in manufacturing for a little bit. Um, I've got a very small amount of automotive experience, very small. Um, but yeah, and then sort of latterly in sales and marketing, um, and a software company as well. So very eclectic background, um, but always ultimately love driving and love cars. So that's always been in the background.

Rebecca Denyer [00:03:06]:
So even as a kid, you know, my 12th birthday, I had my first car, um, a Morris Marina. Oh my God, a nice brown one! And I drove that on the fields, and I picked up the children in the village, and we'd drive around the fields and have a few accidents. And that's kind of where the love of freedom that you get with driving comes from. Um, and that's what I did, and, and we'd pretend that I didn't end up in a ditch occasionally, and my father always had a blind eye to things and would say, "Did you have fun today?" And I'd be like, "Yes!" So, that's kind of where the passion for driving came from, and obviously, I drove the old tractor in my time, tractor and trailer, summertime on the farm. It was good fun, you know, you just got stuck in. But that's kind of always been there, and I've always loved classic cars. So that really has been the main focus. In all the jobs I've had, I've had company cars, and one company I worked for, particularly, every week I'd get a different car, and it was just brilliant.

Rebecca Denyer [00:04:09]:
You know, the boys at work got you a great car, and I was like, fantastic. So I did get very, um, you know, I enjoyed all that time, but I just have a thing about cars and driving and the freedom they give. Um, but the real key thing is just the old-style cars that are just so beautiful, and everybody looks. They want to tell you a story about, you know, my grandfather had that car, or I remember packing 7 of us into a little Mini and going on the school run or something. So, all these little stories come out, and that's the piece about cars. It brings people together. It really does, and everybody's got a story. So, even if they're not into cars, they've all got a story.

Rebecca Denyer [00:04:49]:
So, their father owned this, or their, you know, somebody's got a story, and it just— classic cars particularly, often they don't go, there's always breakdown stories, um, but people always smile and they go, oh yeah, I love that car, oh, it was such a nice looking thing, and, and just made me smile. So it just brings back that nostalgia. So that's kind of a big bit about my background, um, and some of the interests that I have, um, but cars and driving have always been in there, um, Yeah, it's something my flatmates, former flatmates, you know, they'll know full well. We used to go for a spin, and quite a fast one at times. Um, but you know, we— I've always had fun. Um, I'm really sensible now. Um, that's kind of weird. I have turned a full circle.

Rebecca Denyer [00:05:33]:
I'm very sensible now. But, um, partly being a parent, I guess.

Liz Allan  [00:05:38]:
Yeah, yeah, it does, it does that to you, doesn't it? Did you know I've just written down— you've just reminded me, so I suppose I had— my dad always loved cars, and my brothers, who are a lot older than me, you know, they did. And I remember the first car my dad had was a red-and-cream Humber Sceptre, and it had a wooden interior. It was gorgeous. Yeah, but I didn't appreciate it at the time. I see photos now of it, and you know, when we, you know, kind of they pop up on my Google display and stuff like that, and I'm like, yeah, that was a really nice car. And it was funny because when my brothers got older. So I —I—oh my God, this is a story. I was kind of, um, sorry, my brothers were 15 and 16 when I was born.

Liz Allan  [00:06:25]:
There's a massive age gap between us. So, when they started, and they had cars, they'd always bring them to show my dad. It didn't matter what car it was. I remember one of my brothers called the Flying Pig because it was that huge. It was like, oh, it was huge. But then my other brother had a yellow MG BGT soft-top, and he called it the Little Yellow Chicken.

Rebecca Denyer [00:06:50]:
Yeah.

Liz Allan  [00:06:51]:
Um, and my, it's just one of those things, isn't it? It's very; if it's in your family, yeah, it's more likely to, you know, unless you— yeah, you're more likely to get it. And it's funny because my nephew, now 40, bless him, is restoring a Porsche. I think he's got a, like, an old Porsche 911.

Rebecca Denyer [00:07:13]:
Wow.

Liz Allan  [00:07:13]:
So yeah, it's definitely, definitely in the family. So, so I totally get your, your interest. And I remember, I think my dad taught my brothers to drive when they were about 15, in kind of like what you were saying about on the farm. Yeah, this was some kind of diffused tip that my dad used to take.

Rebecca Denyer [00:07:35]:
Out to learn to drive.

Liz Allan  [00:07:37]:
And I was like, oh my God.

Rebecca Denyer [00:07:39]:
Yeah, you see, you just don't do that today. It's quite funny. I mean, my children can't have that experience because they don't live on a farm, and you can't just throw them outside. But I literally remember my 12th birthday, and I just gave them the keys, and the tuition I received was, well, go on, then, get on with it. And I'm like, what do you mean, get on with it? And that's why I probably drive quite poorly. So when I took my test, I remember my instructor saying, "Well, you can drive." 'You have no road sense, do you?' And no, you know, just no qualms about anything. I was like, 'Well, no, because I'm not used to traffic in the field.' So yes, I had to unlearn a few things.

Rebecca Denyer [00:08:21]:
But instead, I had an older brother, so he, he always came back with a different car, um, and he, he went through lots of classic cars himself because they were the cheapest things to buy, um, really low insurance. So, they still are actually. So for a young driver, it's quite a good option. And he used to just run them into the ground and then buy another one, you know. And that's how—so I saw a lot of those cars, too. And, you know, he had various types as well. So that's quite good. That's part of the story, I guess.

Liz Allan  [00:08:51]:
So, when you were younger, you had a Sebring, didn't you? I'm all right. But I mean, you've had cars and stuff.

Rebecca Denyer [00:08:58]:
Well, as an adult. As an adult. So yes, so my husband and I, um, so we set up Sebring, but we, um, so we always had classic cars in the garage, and more often than not mine sat in the garage, and he would firmly say, do not go out in the car today because I'm not around to pick you up and fix it, or, you know, don't go out. Um, and it was really sad. I remember one having a really lovely— it was a little Morris, um, I can't even think of the word now, Morris Minor convertible, which was immaculate. It had had only 2 owners before me, and it was absolutely immaculate. She sat in the garage the whole time, with a little leaky spot underneath. Um, but anyway, we used to trade them and swap them out and go for something else that we like. But we had a Sebring, um, one time, which is an Austin Healey 3000 replica, and it— that was one of our favourite vehicles.

Rebecca Denyer [00:09:52]:
Um, but we let that go. We swapped that out for something else, um, but really enjoyed that one, I have to say. And the,n ironically, in our journey, we ended up acquiring the Seabring brand. So it's funny how you sort of go in a full circle. Um, but yeah, so I mean, we were both working, we both had our own businesses. My husband had a technology company, and I had a creative agency. And I think we were just getting to that point where we had done services for so long, um, and we just wanted a product. And it. We started—we actually ordered our first EV. In that time between placing the order and waiting for it to arrive, we sort of went down the rabbit hole of looking at EVs, looking at energy, and starting to think a bit more sustainably.

Rebecca Denyer [00:10:38]:
And you do get caught up in all of that. And whilst we're at it, it was just before— so it was the end of 2019, so before the lockdowns happened the following year, um, we stumbled across a TV show, Vintage Voltage, which was run by, which is following the story of Moggy from Electric Classic Cars and converting classic cars. And that was it. That just sealed it for us. We said, wow, that's how we could have reliable classic cars. It's so obvious. And we were absolutely amazed by what he was doing, watching back-to-back episodes to the point of ridiculousness. You know, it's like, should we watch another one? Yes.

Rebecca Denyer [00:11:15]:
You know, so literally back to back, particularly that Christmas. I think we just watched cons, you know, we were, and we're like, off right, let's just watch it. The kids were frustrated, like, what are they on? Yeah, but we realised that was going to be the solution, we thought. Um, so what happened was during 2020, we learned everything we could. Um, we're not engineers, um, but we learned everything we could, um, and then, um, decided to, uh, convert one of our cars. And that first car, um, you know, it was amazing. Literally, it was amazing. It's like, it works.

Rebecca Denyer [00:11:48]:
You switch it on, and it works, and it's quiet. And then you thought, oh, okay, this is good. And then we realised we actually created more problems for ourselves. So what transpired as a solution was a product that wasn't quite right, because it was still an old car. It still had rattles and bangs, which you could then hear even more so because it was silent. Whilst there were advantages of it being electric, it then gave other issues. In that time, we started getting customers, but each project became a minefield. It would be a full restoration job.

Rebecca Denyer [00:12:27]:
A client would say, "My car is immaculate," and you pop it on the ramp, and you say, "Well, if it's immaculate, how come I can put my finger in this?" or "It's not. I'm sorry, your budget has to go from here to here." there. Um, and that was always a challenge, and, and you're always— it's— you're compromising, you're fitting battery packs into awkward spaces. And I— ironically, the very first car that we converted has recently— so it's been sold on, and that has just been recently redone by another conversion specialist who's now put more battery packs in the back just to give it a better range. So it's a more usable car, and it's quite fun to see. You know, I'm glad they've done it, and that's That was a really good investment, but you know, that's the compromise. You have to fit more batteries to get range, and you do need a decent bit of range to make it worthwhile, really. So, that's why we kind of thought we're just not quite suiting the problem here.

Rebecca Denyer [00:13:22]:
If we could have a classic car that gave you all the emotion and the feelings and, and excitement and turn heads, you know, that you do when you're driving a classic, but it was brand new then that has to be the answer. And that's how it all started. So, we started to, you know, consider about, you know, building a car from scratch, what that would mean, looked at what the other OEMs do, which is a skateboard platform. And then in that time, we also ended up acquiring the Sebring brand purely because the gentleman who owned it at the time was literally based not far from us, went to have a chat with him, and he said, " Would you like? So, that was how the journey started. So we literally changed from conversions to developing a new car, a new skateboard platform from scratch, which we soon recognised we could pop any car body on Um, top. and, and that's where we're on today. We have 3 models of our own, and the platform is available to other industries as well. So that's how the journey came about.

Liz Allan  [00:14:29]:
And they're beautiful, and they're beautiful, and I will have the links in, in the show notes to, to, you know, because people need to— you want to have a look at them because they are absolutely, absolutely gorgeous. So, so what, so you've gone from, you've, you've gone from restoring the classic cars and making, you know, making them electric as you said, and then to kind of your— you've got your manufacturing plan and your you know, you know, your kind of your different manufacturing lines. What other complications did going from the restoration to a complete new build, you know, but with that kind of vintage look about it, what, what were the things that kind of, um, that you'd not realised that started popping up for you and going, oh, I hadn't thought about that one? Because this is just what happens, isn't it, when you're starting a business and growing?

Rebecca Denyer [00:15:22]:
Yeah, I think we just assumed that you'd follow the rules, you follow the process, it must be quite straightforward. And our naivety, and not being engineers, meant we challenged everything and asked, well, why do we have to do it this way? I'm really sorry, barking dog. Sorry. I think the issues were that everything just takes longer, and we've chatted about this before. Everything takes longer than you want it to. And what we really— we came at this from a conversion point of view, so a sustainable angle. We, you know, we saw those classic cars, we didn't want them to go to waste, we wanted to keep them going. And then the same way with the new vehicles, we don't want to just be using brand new stuff or using more of the Earth's resources.

Rebecca Denyer [00:16:12]:
Why can't we use more secondhand parts? And to register a brand new car, you can only have one part, the main part, as refurbished. And I thought, well, that's not good enough. Why do we need to create new things? So, I challenged this, but because the rules are set out, you know, rules that are in place, new cars can only do this, then you are stuck by those rules. I really challenged it, and it took 9 months of me pushing lots of buttons to try and get an answer about how can we be more sustainable. We've come at this from this angle, we have to be sustainable. We want to use more refurbished parts. There's nothing wrong with these parts.

Rebecca Denyer [00:16:56]:
In fact, refurbished parts are often better than new ones. Why can't we do that? It doesn't mean you'll save more money, though. Your bill of materials may not come down because you're using more refurbished parts. Often, refurbished parts are priced the same as new ones or can be more expensive. So it's not necessarily a cost-saving measure, but it's really about how we can be better and use fewer of the Earth's resources. We know we're producing something new, and there will be issues around it. We're using energy to produce something new, but why can't we just use less of the Earth's resources? So, so all of that was quite a challenge, and we have got an answer, which is great. But there are things that we could improve, and there's a lot more that we can do. And that's what we're working on at the moment.

Rebecca Denyer [00:17:45]:
Unfortunately, when you order something, it comes wrapped in single-use plastic. Why doesn't it just come in paper or card? All those silly frustrations, it's how can we improve that? It's all very well saying, "We'll just write to the supplier and say you want it wrapped in paper." It doesn't work like that. There are many layers here, and we uncovered them in the supply chain. Supply chain, there's a huge number of layers. And then also as a product itself, okay, we are using new things to create a new platform, but the car body or the materials that we use for the interior, could we do something different here? Could we use something recycled? Um, you know, could we use fabrics that have, you know, Second Life fabrics? So, ex-army surplus uniform or whatever, could we use something that's different? I mean, leather is, is already a byproduct. Um, so at least you're using something there. Um, obviously, not everybody agrees with using animal products, but there are other products out there. We're looking at mushroom leather, for instance.

Rebecca Denyer [00:18:46]:
There are all sorts of things that we could do that are different and better.

Liz Allan  [00:18:52]:
Um, so yeah, mushroom leather, blimey, that's an interesting one. Where did you find that one?

Rebecca Denyer [00:19:01]:
Well, again, that was a, you know, a networking event, almost a chance conversation actually, and to discover, um, that this actually existed. And then you uncover it, start researching it, and realise it's actually been around for a while. Um, there are lots of materials like that you just don't appreciate. There are specialists, um, we have a consultant who, who's located very close to the factory who specializes in looking for different materials. Um, it's such an eye-opener. I, I've been hugely pleasantly surprised and challenged that really, you know, where did we go wrong? We went down this plastic route. Um, and yes, okay, it works, it lasts, we know how effective it is, and it's quite inexpensive. Um, but why, why are we doing this? Is that the right thing? So So I've really kind of challenged the flow a little bit, and, and one— there's one area in particular that I really do want to change, and, and that's our car bodies.

Rebecca Denyer [00:20:02]:
Um, because at the moment we're, you know, we're making them out of fibreglass, which is using fossil fuels. It's, it's, it's vile. I mean, I have a piece of glass stuck in my hand. I don't even make them myself. Um, so, so that's quite frustrating. Um, But, um, what I'm trying to do is look at well, we've got a project running at the moment to change the use of the hand-laid fiberglass to be felt fiber and plant resins. It's been done before, and it was done many years ago. Henry Ford produced a car back in 1941 that was basically plant fiber, and it was 7 times stronger than steel.

Rebecca Denyer [00:20:44]:
He even hit an axe at the car to test its strength, and literally there was no dent. It just bounced back into shape because it was a natural fiber. So, and he was trying to be something progressive, and he was challenging, well, if, if we was built our cars out of this, if we um, used, plant, um, so like ethanol, and to fuel our vehicles, we wouldn't— we would reduce the greenhouse effect, which would you be, know, huge. And he stated that in the '40s, but unfortunately the fossil fuel industry squashed that, um, and the paper industry, because they, they knew they'd go out of business if, if they went down his route. Um, and it's been done since. There's a gentleman in America, Bruce Dietzen, who built a couple of car bodies, um, cars, um, about 7, 8 years ago. And I, I've spoken to him, and so I'm hoping to go down that route. Um, we are working with some specialists locally, um, and also talking to farmers locally So I am a farmer's daughter, as I said, and I really want to grow a car.

Rebecca Denyer [00:21:46]:
So, um, I've been reaching out.

Liz Allan  [00:21:49]:
Can I have one, please?

Rebecca Denyer [00:21:52]:
I'll grow a whole load. But that, that's where I'd like it to be. Um, and the fact you that, know, we could grow a car in a field you that's, know, however many miles away from the factory, goes, gets all processed, and then we use that fiber, um, to to build our cars would just be incredible. Um, so yes, that, that whole world exists, and there's a lot more people that are realizing the benefits of plant fibers. And they're not just to the car industry, it is all sorts of building. Um, you can you use, know, these fibers for all sorts of things, from textiles through to, you know, every— loads of, loads of uses. It's really exciting. Um, but it needs a compelling story.

Rebecca Denyer [00:22:31]:
So, um, we are a compelling story, and, um, we have now a good link with, um, hemp processing plant actually locally to us and a group of farmers who are growing hemp, and we're exploring that at the moment. So yes, we're trying to get hemp fields the to Forecourt. Sorry.

Liz Allan  [00:22:52]:
Yeah, absolutely. Now I was going to say, so, so on the plant fiber side of things and hemp especially, like you say, so is that— so is the plant fiber, is that a byproduct? So, or is that, you know, would— I suppose my question is that, is what you're talking about something that a farmer wouldn't need because they've taken, they've extracted all the main bits that they need, and actually this is, this is the— you can take the rest of it for, for the vehicle?

Rebecca Denyer [00:23:23]:
So it— well, it's part— so hemp itself is a really fibrous plant, and it's a really good plant for— it's organic by nature. You don't use any fertiliser for it. And it's a really good plant to use if you're rotating your crops, um, because it's really good for the soil. So it's just easy, and it grows incredibly high, and you can just harvest it with a stand harvester. Um, so the product itself has got the fibres plus it's got the oil as well, and the oil could be used in healthcare, um, in various uses. Um, and that's probably what it's typically known for rather than the fibre itself. Yes, um, fibre is the bulk of the product, um, and it also grows in the UK really well, which is quite surprising given our climate. Um, it, you know, it grows incredibly well in the States, but it does work here.

Rebecca Denyer [00:24:14]:
Um, and, you know, obviously it can— it's a short cycle, so you grow it from April to July. Um, and it's a good crop to have. Yeah, and, and it also, it mops up loads of CO2, so You know, it's such a good plant for the environment at so many levels. And it's good if you've got a lot of, say, if you have sheep and you've got a lot of grassland, and then you want to just put a crop in in that short time period. So it just helps rotate things for a farmer. And that's growing. There are people locally to us who—there's a big group across the UK who are talking and working together. But it's grown under license.

Rebecca Denyer [00:24:56]:
So there's some complexity around that. Um, the Home Office used to issue the license. Um, it's now been put over to So, DEFRA. um, and I, you know, in the Cotswolds we've got some very notable, um, farmers. Um, you know, one in particular.

Liz Allan  [00:25:11]:
Yeah, yeah, there's a specific notable farmer that's not that far away from you, isn't there?

Rebecca Denyer [00:25:18]:
Not at all. And it would just be amazing if he, he got on board too, because I think you know, he's done a lot for farming. Um, I have huge respect for him. Um, and he's— he can see, you know, it'd be great if he were involved. Um, so I have tried to reach out to his team, and I'll still keep reaching out, and we'll get him on board one day. Um, if you write up this talk.

Liz Allan  [00:25:40]:
Let'S mention him because, you know, come on. So, so we are— in case you've not realised, we are talking about Jeremy Clarkson, who is very close to where Rebecca is in the Cotswolds. So, so I tell you what, if you've got a message we can share for Jeremy?

Rebecca Denyer [00:26:01]:
Well, I have actually reached out already to the team, and they have kindly responded. Um, so short of me stalking him and, and literally parking a car outside his house, um, which is really kind of them. And I, you know, I would just like to get this get him involved in this story because I would like to be growing cars. So, from field to forecourt is my catchphrase, um, and it's a good crop to have. So, um, I think he's tried most other crops, most other animals on his farm. So, um, I've got an idea.

Liz Allan  [00:26:35]:
That's how it goes, isn't it? I've got an idea.

Rebecca Denyer [00:26:37]:
Well, let's do a thing, Jerry. Let's do a thing. Um, so, and, you know, I know EVs haven't been up his street, but I think he's warming— he's coming around to it. But just to— why not? And also, and the hemp itself, you can, you can use it for concrete. So an acre and a half of hemp can produce a 4-bedroom detached home. So you could literally grow houses. Wow. So there's a huge scope.

Rebecca Denyer [00:27:06]:
And I, you know, we're on an island, there's so much more that we could do here, um, in lots of ways. So energy— I won't go down all of that now, but there are lots of things we could do, um, and I'd love us to be part of that, that story in the UK.

Liz Allan  [00:27:19]:
But I mean, that we're talking a double whammy when it comes to Jeremy Clarkson, aren't we? We're talking about his love of cars and his love of farming that comes together and melds, doesn't it, to something? Especially if you can put these ideas—he can see the Sebring and what you're making. He's already taken a Renault 5 Electric out for a test drive, and from what I saw, he likes that's it, you know, it's a very positive review.

Rebecca Denyer [00:27:47]:
Yes, very positive. 

Liz Allan  [00:27:50]:
Actually, yeah, getting him involved in something like this, sometimes you just need that voice, don't you, to start kind of moving things forward. And I know the farming community has found him very, you know, very helpful. I know the councils might not.

Rebecca Denyer [00:28:07]:
Well, he's achieved in a short time— I mean, he's educated this country and people overseas as to the realities of agriculture and how tough it is. And I think they've done a fantastic job. He and Lisa are incredible. So yes, I would like them to be part of our journey. Um, so I'll keep pushing the door.

Liz Allan  [00:28:26]:
I think because it's so close to you, it would be ridiculous, you know, if cut he it, even if he just comes and has a conversation with you, I would love to see from field to full court You know, you just need that, you know, like, um, so I've been to the brewery, you know, kind of, uh, that's not that far from their brewery, from that's not that far from Clarkson's Farm. And you've got, you've got a big, big picture of Caleb and, and, and Jeremy Clarkson. We kind of need, you need that slogan underneath as well with a car, with the Sebring and saying, you know, from field to forecourt, because I think, my God, that's, you know, that's such a phrase. Just brilliant. I love it.

Rebecca Denyer [00:29:08]:
No, it would be great. All right, either way, I'm still pushing ahead. And, um, yeah, we're literally pushing ahead with it ourselves, but we have tried to work with, um, some university influence, but that's, that's quite slow. So just take— grabbing the bull by the horns, and we're just going to do it anyway.

Liz Allan  [00:29:24]:
So I think you should camp at his farm, you know, just need.

Rebecca Denyer [00:29:29]:
Want to— I don't want to stop.

Liz Allan  [00:29:33]:
Just turn up at Diddley Squat Farm Shop, on the days you're open, and keep going in, buying a jar of jam or some mushrooms or something like that.

Rebecca Denyer [00:29:42]:
Don't be sick of me, you know.

Liz Allan  [00:29:45]:
That's the way to do it, honestly. I was gonna, I was gonna say, so going back to suppliers and, and you kind of saying that, and my God, you just blew my mind because, because of my continuous improvement background, and I know you've done a bit of process improvement stuff as well, haven't you?

Rebecca Denyer [00:30:00]:
Yeah.

Liz Allan  [00:30:01]:
My sort of lean side of stuff that I kind of get involved in goes right back to Henry Ford and the Model T, because that's, he was, you know, he was the kind of the granddaddy of, of kind of continuous improvement, really. That blew me away when you said that about him. And was it, was it the Model T that he kind of made the, the body out of?

Rebecca Denyer [00:30:25]:
I can't remember which model it would have been, but yeah, it was 1941, 1942. Um, yeah, so that's how far back it was. And he literally had, you know, adverts and paperwork saying this would, you know, stop the greenhouse effect. And that's what he was talking about then, and nobody would listen to him. Um, so, you know, someone like that really knew his stuff. Um, but yes, yeah, Bruce Dietzen, who built a car about 7 or 8 years ago, thought he was just a bit ahead of his time. So hopefully we've got the timing right now. But there are other composites, too, that are equally fantastic.

Rebecca Denyer [00:31:03]:
And we met someone recently who's, yeah, developed— it's another plastic, but it is made out of waste material that's actually natural. And that's just incredible, and it's really strong. So again, there are other options. And that's why shouldn't we try these things? You could, you know, hand-build a car from aluminium and aluminium's positive in a lot of ways. But again, why not use some of the waste products or, you know, products that we naturally create? So that's quite exciting.

Liz Allan  [00:31:37]:
I was going to say, and we do get— we still do get a lot of innovation in this country, and I always talk about it, you know. So, are there any innovators in the UK using recycled materials? You know, that you said you can't use sort of like— I know it's not an engine part, but you know what I mean? There are certain vehicle parts that you can't use that are recycled. But are there, you know, are there companies that are involved in the supply chain that are starting to kind of move to at least using recycled materials? Over here?

Rebecca Denyer [00:32:18]:
Well, I think that there's a huge challenge in sustainability. So I think on the whole, most people and most businesses want to be sustainable. The challenges come when you actually are prevented from doing so for regulatory reasons, which I can barely say, um, but also just because of the number of layers in our supply chains. And it's really hard. It's just, it's ridiculously hard. And yet it shouldn't be. It should be so simple. And I think I've been frustrated by just silly things, parts coming in single-use plastic and just difficulties of trying to identify the origin of the original from, you supplier know, there's just so many layers.

Rebecca Denyer [00:33:02]:
We had an issue. So when the tariffs came in, what we didn't realise was that some parts that we were ordering from Europe were actually going to the States and then out again to us. So they weren't even coming directly from Europe. So, can you imagine what a waste of our fuel, a way, you know, just the whole inefficiency around that? It's probably seen as efficient by the supplier in Europe because it may be cheaper, ironically, or quicker, even. Um, there are so many layers to everything that nothing is straightforward, and that's one thing I've learned in this business, that absolutely nothing is straightforward, even though it should be, and on paper it looks like it should be. That's the piece that frustrates me. It's like, well, why can't we do it this way? Why is it so hard? But there are just so many more layers to things. I think, but on the whole, most people do want to make better decisions.

Rebecca Denyer [00:34:01]:
Price comes into it, obviously. It's much cheaper to do what we've always done. Rather than being the innovators and starting something new. Or ironically, most of these things are going backwards in time. So if you look at how sustainable we were many years ago, unfortunately, before fossil fuel usage, it's, you know, that is part of the reason, you know, we were much more sustainable. We reused things, we, you know, people made do. So we have to go back in time to go forward. But I think as a whole, most people, most businesses want to make the right decisions.

Rebecca Denyer [00:34:42]:
But unfortunately, there are barriers that make it difficult. And that's why we need to bring in people, notable people, celebrities, you know, people who have, you know, a passion for something to be, you know, to help with, you know, maybe the car industry or maybe whatever industry it is. We need that influence, um, because no government's going to save us. Um, it takes time. If you wait for a government to solve a problem, you will be waiting a long, long time, um, for a number of reasons. So I'm not going to get political here, but we have to make those decisions consciously. And that's why I pushed with DVLA. I pushed back and said, your rules don't allow us to do XYZ.

Rebecca Denyer [00:35:30]:
Um, why not? 'How can we change it?' Rather than just accepting it, which I think most people have had to do because it's easier, it's quieter, it's quicker just to accept the status quo. Whereas I'm very much about, 'No, sorry, it's not the right thing to do. Let's do the right thing if we can, whatever the right thing is.' It is actually— I'm now leading on to something else here, but it's actually really hard to do the right thing all the time. Nobody wants you to do the right thing because it costs more or might challenge someone. That's another frustration I've had, that "No, I'm sorry, I want to treat people fairly. I want to do it this way. I want to honour that arrangement." We've had that challenge. We've had that challenge with investors not wanting to honour our plans.

Rebecca Denyer [00:36:22]:
It is hard to do the right thing. It genuinely is. And we're open and transparent as can be, and maybe to our detriment sometimes. Um, but we are trying to do something and, and do it better, um, and do it the right way. But that isn't easy. It's not easy, but it's just, by nature of who we are, that we want to do the right thing. exactly. Um, I'm not saying we always get it because we can't.

Rebecca Denyer [00:36:49]:
And that's the other frustration. We can't always achieve what we want, and we still have many challenges to overcome. But the desire is there, our intent is there, and people can put blockers in front of us, but ultimately that's what we're trying to do. And I think there are a lot of businesses like that. You just have to find those businesses and try to work with them.

Liz Allan  [00:37:13]:
Absolutely. I totally agree. And like you say, it's not easy, but nothing is, is it? It's just kind of, I suppose it's a bit like being in a, you know, kind of in a boxing match, really. You just have to keep getting knocked down, getting back up, and keep moving forward. And I'm finding that myself with my businesses. We've kind of talked about, you know, my businesses, you know, But, um, I was going to ask you, so you said about the DVLA rules, what, what are they that you were just mentioning?

Rebecca Denyer [00:37:48]:
Yeah, so obviously, the DVLA has to have a set of rules to follow when you register a new car, and we found this with the conversions. When you try to register a vehicle that has been converted, they don't have the processes in place to handle that. They now have. It's taken a lot of effort and a lot of lobbying, so notable people in the industry have done a really good job on that. Um, but it's only because they didn't have the processes in place, and changing them is lengthy. I really don't understand why it needs to be so complicated. Um, yes, I understand about safety and the issues around it. However, it has taken a long time, and partly because it's such a small part of what the DVLA does.

Rebecca Denyer [00:38:34]:
Um, so 90%-95% of what the DVLA does is standard stuff. And then there's a small percentage of, you know, people like us who are jumping up and down saying, well, what about us? And look at what we're trying to do. But because it's such a small percentage, it probably doesn't have the time available to spend on it. Um, but that's what we're pushing against all the time. You're pushing against existing processes that can't— that need to be rewritten. Because they just don't fit the box that we're trying to fit in. But, but on the whole, people understand. It's just how do you get to those right people? Because there are, there are, you know, gatekeepers at every stage.

Rebecca Denyer [00:39:17]:
You don't have a direct line to people anymore. All the public bodies are, are mostly homeworkers, and they have processes to follow, and it goes in a system, and you have to wait, and if— and it will fall out the system because you might have filled out a form online, but it falls out of system because it just gets rejected because it doesn't fit the policy they've got in place. You have to go through a complaint process, and that takes time. Yeah, know, you I can understand why things don't happen. I understand they've got processes to follow, but some common sense at times and the ability to speak to somebody would resolve all of this, rather than having a call handler who doesn't have the ability to do anything because they have to follow a process, and then it gets escalated and lost in the ether. So I think all those frustrations have been really challenging, and they can, they will, continue. Um, but I'm like a dog with a bone at times, and I do keep going, and I, you know, I don't let go of something unless I absolutely have to. Um, especially if I can see that there's a massive advantage to it, or, you know, benefit, and not like a, you know, in a good way, that is.

Rebecca Denyer [00:40:25]:
So, you know, why couldn't we reuse more than one major component? Why couldn't we refurbish something and still classify it as new? Um, we've made huge headway, but we still have a long way to go. And I think because we're small, that's been a challenge. Had we been a large OEM I think people would sit up and listen because we're a small OEM, tiny, you know, we're insignificant even though we're incredibly innovative, incredibly passionate, and able to radically change the industry and to show them, look, this is what we're doing and, and why, and it could be mainstream. Um, but it requires everybody to come together and collaborate, and that's the other piece: how do you get everyone to the table, um, to collaborate, to share knowledge? You know, we've got so much knowledge, and there are other competitors who've got so much knowledge. Why aren't we pooling that together and working together? And I have, you know, I go and try and speak to our competitors, and most of them are actually quite receptive now, once they've kind of stepped back and thought, what's she contacting us for? But I genuinely think it's, you know, there's room for all of us in this market, and you know, why not share that knowledge? It took us 3 years to develop our products. Well, why on earth would somebody want to go through that? Why not just use our product as a base and put your car body on top of it, or use it in a different industry? Because it works, you know, it's proven it works. Um, why not make it easier? And then it all helps all of us.

Rebecca Denyer [00:42:03]:
So our platform, um, got adopted by the film and production industry, and I can't even remember how that happened now. I, I genuinely cannot remember how it happened. It was just one of those things. And it's insane because the platform is silent, there's no emissions. You can use it for a large-scale prop, so you could put a dinosaur on top of it, um, you know, an animal or a spaceship or any vehicle, you know. So it can be used for that. But also, because it's a power source— and of course, your whole audience will understand this because you get very passionate about this— it's a power source, so it can plug things into it, and you can use it on set, you can use it on location, remote areas. If you're filming in the desert, you've got a power source sitting there.

Rebecca Denyer [00:42:53]:
So that's why the film production industry jumped at the opportunity: it's there, it works, and they could tailor it to their needs. But it's not just the film production industry that leads to utilities. And then, you know, it's a power source. It's useful for getting into awkward spaces that a standard large utility vehicle can't reach. Um, so it's really adaptable for so many things. But why develop something new? Why not use what we've got and make it work for you? So we're open to lots of conversations. We have an awful lot of conversations going on at the moment, in different industries and distant spheres. Um, but why don't we just collaborate? Let's work together.

Rebecca Denyer [00:43:43]:
Um, yeah, so, so that's what I'm trying to do. That's good. Maybe, I don't know if that's just because it's a personality thing, um, whether being a woman makes a difference. Um, I, I do feel that, you know, we do collaborate better, um, and, and in a different way. Um, and I think the more that you have women on the teams, you know, the room changes. So why not tap into that a little bit? So I'm really keen about sharing what we have, but also how we can help others with it. It's not just for us to benefit from, or our direct customers who buy our cars, you know. There are other manufacturers, low-volume niche vehicle manufacturers; there are other industries that can benefit from it.

Rebecca Denyer [00:44:26]:
So, you know, don't reinvent the wheel, just grab what we've you've got and make it work for you.

Liz Allan  [00:44:33]:
I think, I think that, that's, that's brilliant. And, actually, you're just pointing out that level of inclusivity as well, you know, kind of collaboration needs inclusivity. It's not about, it's not about kind of keeping anybody out, is it? It's actually bringing everybody, everybody together to kind of work for the, for the greater good, if you want to, you know, put it, put it in that, you know, in that way, because I think that bit's really important. And you know what, that's why I wanted, that's how we got talking, wasn't it? Because I saw that from, from a leadership point of view for you, the fact that you wanted to reach out to people, that you were happy to reach out and you wanted to collaborate, that just stood out, you know. It spoke volumes to me, seriously.

Rebecca Denyer [00:45:20]:
Yeah. Oh no, thank you. I mean, you know, it just makes sense, doesn't it? And you know, it doesn't always work. Collaborations don't always work. And, um, that, you know, we found that, um, we've had a collaboration that hasn't worked the way that we hoped it would, and that's possibly just because, you know, we didn't have the same mindset on that. And that's okay, we're still friends, you know, which is good. Um, but genuinely, there are a lot of people out there who appreciate that, actually, together we're stronger, and it's better together. Yes, you know, you'll have some niggles that you have to iron out, but actually, it just makes more sense.

Rebecca Denyer [00:45:59]:
So, you know, maybe I'm a bit idealistic, um, but, you know, why can't we just work together? You know, it's like, it's like a big playground, isn't it? It's like, come on, let's come to the party, let's enjoy ourselves. Yeah.

Liz Allan  [00:46:13]:
And so I'm going to ask you this question, move, you know, kind of staying on sort of like your leadership skills side, what has been the thing that has most surprised you about you since you started Sebring with your husband? What are you personally— what has been the thing that surprised you? I mean, you know, you're the, the passionate, it just comes out in your voice, it's obvious, you know. But what, what about you? How have you felt about, oh, oh, I didn't, I didn't think I'd be.

Rebecca Denyer [00:46:44]:
Doing this, I think every day, I think I didn't think I'd be doing this. Um, I've learned a lot about myself, I have, and I've learned a lot about my relationship with my husband, um, as well. It's quiet, you know, we've had to pull together like no other couple, it feels like. We've gone through so much. We live and breathe it, um, you know, it is 24/7. There is no um. Respite, and right, the level, you know, the depth that we have— we've gone to, you know, the challenges that we have had and come through, and those that we have yet to come through, um, are vast. And, you can't even share them with, you know, it's just— there's just not time to share them with anyone.

Rebecca Denyer [00:47:30]:
And, at times, you can't because you're just in the middle of it all. Um, but I, I think I've learned a lot about myself and how I cope with that. The stress levels are ridiculous. I don't think my body is thanking me particularly, but I've definitely got more resilience than I thought. Things do not faze me. I mean, I, you know, there are tears, of course there are. You know, I'm human, and it's tough. It's ridiculously tough.

Rebecca Denyer [00:48:01]:
Things that are promised don't happen, or you're replanning because the plans that you made were based on what you were told at the time, and then it's changed 100 times since last week. And then you've got client expectations to manage, and you can't share everything because there's just too much. But I've definitely learned that, you know, we get through things each day. We, you know, we still wake up, and we get through, and I'm stronger than I thought I was. And I never knew what we'd go through, the challenges that we have. Um, you know, nothing surprises me now. That genuinely is it. And possibly sadly, nothing surprises me now.

Rebecca Denyer [00:48:42]:
It's like, well, what's next? You know, okay, so we got through the last mess, we got through the last challenge, you know, let's, let's proceed. Um, but you know, we've always been ourselves, and that's one thing, being true to our values and to ourselves, that has possibly caused some of the issues because not everybody likes that. They don't like you being open, or no, it's going to be done this way, the right way, you know, and we're not cutting corners here, you know, we take ownership for everything. So, that is a challenge, but I've certainly never realised that, you know, we'd be this kind of strong force. And together, our relationship, you know, clearly has changed. We've been together a long time, but this has been, you know, a really tough few years for us. But we still smile, we still joke, we still get on. Thank goodness for that.

Rebecca Denyer [00:49:32]:
Um, you've got to do that. We don't have time for friendships because there's no time to see our friends and our family, and that's been quite hard. You know, there are times you just think, no, we really are not spending any time with anyone else, and that's been a challenge. Hopefully, that will get easier in time. Um, but, but yeah, the depth of character that, you know, I'm still passionate, still care about people. Um, you know, there's decisions that you have to make that are, are not very nice, and, and it's not very nice having to say, look, we've got to cut costs here, or we've got to do this now. It's harsh, and those decisions are never nice to do. And, um, you know, it doesn't please me to have to make those decisions sometimes.

Rebecca Denyer [00:50:17]:
Um, but, you know, put my big girl pants on and you have to make them, don't you? Um, yeah, it's tough. It is tough at the top. And, um, and we're just a small business ultimately, so, you know, but everybody in leadership has that to deal with. And I don't think people recognise how tough that is, whatever size business you are. It doesn't matter whether you're a 1-man, 2-man, 20-man, or 3,000-man. People at the top have the same issues. It's just different-sized zeros at the end of them, or different magnitudes, isn't it? But it's the same pressure. It is, and it's the same pressure, but it's up to you to sort out.

Rebecca Denyer [00:50:57]:
And that's one conversation we had this weekend, actually. So it's up to the founders, it's up to those people to sort out. Everyone else can leave if they don't like it. They can change their mind, you know. If a collab doesn't work, they can just walk away. Um, you know, if a director doesn't agree, just resign and go. Or, you know, everyone else can just leave, but the people who have set it up, who are running the show, they're the ones who have to pick up the pieces, whatever happens. And that's tough, you know, it is tough.

Rebecca Denyer [00:51:27]:
And I understand why people make decisions they do. And, you know, an employee might decide to leave, and that, you know, that's sad. It is sad. I don't like that situation. Um, we had an employee leave recently and it was like, oh really? You know, and really sad. And then the worst bit was, well, I like you guys as well, you know. But it— that's quite frustrating. But, but a staff member can do that, and then you've got to pick up the pieces, haven't you, and keep going and fill that gap.

Rebecca Denyer [00:51:56]:
And that could be us literally filling that gap, um, or trying to find someone. That's the piece you're always left with the responsibility. There's no let-up. Um, so it's just managing that and how you manage stress. Um, I don't manage it, I don't think, very well. My, my body isn't very happy, but I play sports and try to keep myself healthy and fit as best I can. Um, but you know, that's one piece that I need to figure out a bit better, how to manage the stress better, because it, it does show itself physically in me, you know, backache, neckache, whatever it is. Um, yeah, complications.

Rebecca Denyer [00:52:33]:
And that long-term health, that can't be good. I'm sure if I went to see a GP, they would probably, you know, write me off for a while. Well, I haven't got time for that, you know. So, so all that, you learn a lot about yourself, um, and you learn a lot about others, um, people who are not always who they say they are. And, you know, I know you can tell, you can get a vibe from somebody, but you learn a lot about people, um, and nothing surprises me.

Liz Allan  [00:53:04]:
So, no. You can't let things surprise you anyway, can you? You know, they might as I said, it's sometimes like being in a boxing match. You get knocked down, but you have to get back up. But look, I'm gonna ask you one, one final, one final question. So looking at this from a hopeful point of view, you know, what would you like to happen in the next 18, 12 to 18 months, then for Sebring?

Rebecca Denyer [00:53:32]:
I'd just like to see more of our cars on the road, um, you know, happy faces. So where there have been delays, that those are now overcome and we can just move um, forward, and, and just to be in a place where, um, you know, maybe I could take a day off or two, um, yeah, but yeah, and do something more impactful So, you know, can we get this plant fiber card? Why not? Can we make that a mainstream product? Let's do something different. Let's put the UK back on the map. You know, Great Britain, that's the great back in it. I'm sounding like a politician now, but there are so many things that we can do, and we've got an opportunity here. And I think that, as a small business, we can be really impactful. And I just would like to see that happen. Um, you know, I've just got to keep pushing, got to keep pushing.

Rebecca Denyer [00:54:24]:
Um, but yeah, there are lots of things. But then also to be able to give back, because at this moment in time, we're so small, we can't give back in the way I'd like to do. You know, I'd like to bring in schools, students, you know, and do more. We've got a scheme at the moment with some university students, but I can't give back in the way I'd like to. Or, you know, can we work with, um, you know, people with disabilities more? All sorts of things, you know, just give back a bit more as a business. And that's tricky to do when you're very small, um, and time poor. So if you can free up some time, you know, let's give back and, and be more impactful in our community and extended community as well.

Liz Allan  [00:55:08]:
You'll get there. You've got so much power and kind of foresight and just, uh, yeah. I'm not saying confidence, quite confidence, but just, yeah, I think I look forward to seeing all the good things that come out, you know, of Sebring in the future and actually, you know, kind of getting the more film companies involved in buying the, you know, having the platform to use for their kind of sustainability side of things. I just think, yeah, you're doing all the right things. So I'm just gonna say I wanna see you, you know, I want us to chat again in kind of 12, 18 months' time and, and see it, see how it's all going. And hopefully a lot of those, those issues of kind of, um, that, you know, they'll have flattened out a little bit. Let's, let's just keep our, our fingers crossed. And you'll have old Jezza Clarkson on board, of course, you know, because.

Rebecca Denyer [00:56:02]:
Jeremy.

Liz Allan  [00:56:03]:
Come.

Rebecca Denyer [00:56:04]:
On, you know you want to.

Liz Allan  [00:56:06]:
Yeah, come on, Jeremy. Thank you. Anyway, listen, on that note, I'm just gonna say it's been lovely talking to you. I've really enjoyed it. I think, you know, and you know that I want to come up to the Cotswolds when it's nicer weather and go for a ride in one of your Seabringhs. And absolutely, just, I can't wait. It'd just be wonderful. And just to be able to see them and how you manufacture them and all of the wonderful things that, that you've been doing.

Liz Allan  [00:56:31]:
So, so thank you, Rebecca, ever so much for your time. I will share all your links in the show notes and make sure that people know where you are.

Rebecca Denyer [00:56:39]:
Oh, you start. Thank you so much. I really appreciate the opportunity. And yeah, keep posted.

Liz Allan  [00:56:46]:
I will, definitely. So listen to everybody watching and listening, and check out Sebring. Really do. The cars look absolutely amazing. Um, but yeah, and share, share this if you know Jeremy Clarkson. Please share this. Or anybody who you think might be influential in the sector who's interested, you know, in actually bringing all of the things that Rebecca's been talking about to, you know, to life, then please do. But on that note, I'm going to say thank you for watching and listening.

Liz Allan  [00:57:24]:
Like, subscribe, share, and all of that lovely stuff, and I shall see you later. Bye!