Episode 117: Liz Allan and Lizzie Coles - Innovation and the Future of Charge Point Management

Episode 117: Liz Allan and Lizzie Coles - Innovation and the Future of Charge Point Management.

Liz Allan speaks to Lizzie Coles, Head of Product at Fuuse, about her extensive product management experience and transition from a petrolhead to an EV advocate. Lizzie shares her journey from working in digital transformation at Leeds City Council to her leadership roles in fast-paced industries such as online gambling and national lotteries and ultimately into EV charging.

They discuss the complexities of integrating hardware and software within the EV charging landscape, the importance of improving the driver experience, and the role of regulation in standardising and enhancing public charging networks. Lizzie also explains how Fuuse supports businesses with charge point management systems, focusing on reliability, energy efficiency, and customer-centric solutions.

Lizzie Coles Bio:
Lizzie Coles began her career in product management around 2006, starting at Leeds City Council. In this role, she focused on simplifying and digitizing government processes, such as online application forms for blue badges, which ignited her passion for solving customer problems through technology. After contributing significantly at Leeds City Council, Lizzie relocated to London, where she took on the role of Head of Product for a major gambling operator, a position she held for several years. Throughout her career, Lizzie has consistently aimed to make online interactions easier, faster, and more cost-effective for users.

Lizzie Coles Links:
Website: https://fuuse.io
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elizabethsanderson

Episode Keywords: 
EV charging, charge point management, Fuuse, electric vehicles, product management, customer experience, public charging, EV regulations, plug-and-charge, agile solutions, hardware integration, software innovation, EV adoption, charge point operators.

Episode Hashtags: 
#EVCharging #ElectricVehicles #Fuuse #ProductManagement #EVAdoption #Charg

Transcript

Liz Allan [00:00:01]:
Right. So on today's episode, I have got Lizzie Coles, who is the head of product at Fuuse. So, Lizzie, lovely to meet you. Thank you ever so much for joining me.

Lizzie Coles [00:00:12]:
Hi. Hi. Nice. Thanks for having me, actually. Very excited. This is my first podcast.

Liz Allan [00:00:17]:
I know. I know. And you don't need to be worried because I'm not that I'm not a horrible person.

Lizzie Coles [00:00:23]:
No. I know.

Liz Allan [00:00:26]:
Or else I would be probably on some other TV prog or a TV programme where I'm being horrible, but I'm not like that. Anyway, Ryan

Lizzie Coles [00:00:32]:
Or on Twitter.

Liz Allan [00:00:33]:
So let's just talk a little bit about you. So you're head of product at Fuuse. You've also been head of you were previously head of product at Pod Point, and you've worked with product for quite a while in agile environments anyway, haven't you? So it'd be really good to chat about your background and how you got into what you're doing now. You know? Is the product something that you've been interested in for a long time, I suppose is my question.

Lizzie Coles [00:01:02]:
Yeah. It has actually. So I've worked as you said. I've worked in the product industry for a long time, probably since around 2000 6. I was at Leeds City Council at the beginning. Before that, we sort of graduate jobs. But, there, we had a big agenda around the government agenda. And it was at that point where, you know, making some of these processes for application forms of blue badges or whatever much easier to do online is where I really kind of connected with solving customer problems actually and making it easier, faster, cheaper for people to do certain things online, and it kind of grew from there. So I worked there for quite some time, then moved to London and started working for a gambling operator where I was head of product there for quite a long time.

Lizzie Coles [00:01:44]:
We grew very, very fast, very sort of rapid, agile environment where we sort of test learn, iterate it on features all centred around b to c, you know, business to customer, which is just solving customer problems fast. And it's motivating. It's a really rewarding kind of thing to see something current come to fruition so quickly. And it becomes, I guess, quite, you know, attractive to stay in that space and that way of working. So it's just the ability to see sort of continuous improvement and feedback through data or the usage of the apps and websites that kept me there, I guess. So I worked there for quite a long time, and then it got to the point, I suppose, of that industry as much as I love loved it, and actually, I've got some of my best friends for life from there, that I wanted to solve the more positive problem with technology. And I also have a deep love of cars, fast cars, and traditionally petrol cars. So, I'm gonna say I'm a reformed petrolhead.

Liz Allan [00:02:44]:
I like the reformed bit.

Lizzie Coles [00:02:46]:
Although I'd still probably like a Porsche GT 3 RS, that's cool. But yeah. And so I thought, is there a way that I can combine products and cars? I didn't really want to work for an OEM necessarily. And getting into green tech when I moved to Pod Point was a great combination because it allowed me to solve a more positive problem with technology and get a bit closer to cars and a new type of car, which is, you know, EVs. So it was a great it was a great opportunity. So I moved I moved there as head of product. It was a steep learning curve, I have to say. It's a different industry, much slower-paced.

Lizzie Coles [00:03:24]:
It is a different technical landscape entirely because of its hardware. Hadn't worked on hardware products in the past. I did a little bit at the National Lottery because I was head of mobile there for a short time. So we had a few, you know, retail outlets, more than a few. So it was a bit of a step away from that. So, yeah, it was a really it was a really interesting time. And then it was there where I set about just trying to understand the industry and all the different components and different things that went into it, which, as you probably know, is a complex landscape. This, of course, gets passed on to consumers in various different guards, which is whether it's multiple apps or different experiences across the board.

Lizzie Coles [00:04:04]:
So, So, yeah. It sort of stemmed from there and, loved it there. Was there for about 4 years. And then I moved to Fuse, which is great because I'm back in software. Just software. So this is kind of my wheelhouse. And also a refined sort of, amount of different customers we're we're looking at. So at Pod Point, we did everything from installs to domestic charging to fleet to workplace to public and a whole lot.

Lizzie Coles [00:04:31]:
Whereas Fuse is more focused on public charging in the workplace. And we do have drive we do have driver apps, but we're very much sort of on the b to b side of things. And we're we're primarily a charge point management system. So for large businesses or small that have charge points they have a car park. They need to be able to manage them. So we make all the connections with Firo CPP to manage their actual charge points and their units. We do all sorts of features in the back office system that allow people to either set prices, set tariffs, control opening hours, you know, control all the different sort of charge point access controls that you can imagine that a customer would want from a commercial perspective, we manage. We also have various driver apps that allow people to start, stop, charge, and find a charge point. So the list goes on in terms of sort of features, but it's, it's a very feature-rich offering, and it's great to be sort of in that in that space, really, and be part of the industry, which is ever growing and ever-changing.

Liz Allan [00:05:35]:
Like you say, it's always sometimes you kind of you you could sort of we've been writing posts on charge point charging for a little while now. And sometimes you can write it, like, a week and a half and, you know, before. And then by the time it's actually out, something's changed. So so, yeah, as it as it kind of moves just really, really quickly, it's kinda like, oh oh, okay. Oh, no. That's not happening anymore. That's something else now.

Lizzie Coles [00:06:04]:
Yeah. It's evolved again. But, you know, that's I mean, for me personally, it's part of the attraction being part of a new industry and new tech and an an evolving market is is just something that's, you know, something I'm really keen and passionate about, really. And I think, again, if I can be at the forefront of solving customer problems that are new, it's something that's, you know, what motivates me, I guess.

Liz Allan [00:06:26]:
Right. So, just going back a step a step, you were just saying as well about how Fuse integrates into the hardware itself. Yeah. And, obviously, there'll be people like myself who don't know loads about how it, you know, how it works ins you see, it within that, within that hardware, there are various interfaces, aren't there?

Lizzie Coles [00:06:48]:
Yes.

Liz Allan [00:06:49]:
What are what? You kind of alluded to a couple of things there, but if I walked up to a charger, I'm not going to know its fuse, am I? That's not inside.

Lizzie Coles [00:06:59]:
Not necessarily. So often, I guess it's a bit like how a load of phones connect. So we've all got our phone operating systems, and charge points are the same. And they on the on the main, you know, connect using a, a standard operating system called OCPP. Fuuse backs off a system and connects to that OCPP operating system, which basically brings up your charges online. And therefore, you can see your range of charges, where they are, what tariffs they have, and all that type of thing in our back office system. So if you're running a hotel and have a charger in their car park or whatever, you can bring them onto line onto our back office system. You can set a tariff.

Lizzie Coles [00:07:41]:
You can set times when you want them to be used. You can see how much they're being used. You know, you can see how much you they're earning for you, essentially. So it's you know, we're in this very fortunate position whereby anyone who has a car park is gonna get chargers installed, could, in theory, be our customer. And so that's kind of one use case, if you like. And then from a driver's perspective, we do a number of different white label apps. So if you're a CPO who operate charge point operator, who have a number of public units who are there on the public network, we can offer you, an app. We can brand it as as you like it, and that allows a driver to download that app.

Lizzie Coles [00:08:20]:
You can go and find the charge points, start a charge using all the different payment methods, and, you know, add in, like, the charge cards, RFID cards, all of those different things. We've also got a number of different sort of roaming connections and integrations with a lot of different providers such as ZapMap or Electraverse, that type of thing. So we really do offer that whole sort of user experience from a kind of company who've got charge points that they want to own and manage. And so all the sort of software that is sort of related to that is something that we offer. And in addition to that, if, you know, you think you've got energy constraints on your site, so you don't know how much your supply is, that type of thing, we can also monitor that. So we can probably tell you the best combination or flavor of charge units to have on your site, measure that, make sure you're sort of using that sort of supply cost effectively and, you know, from a resource side of things. So it's it is quite a one stop shop for people who want to operate charge points.

Liz Allan [00:09:18]:
That's really interesting, actually. Does that mean also so you're looking at energy usage. Mhmm. Does it also provide you that kind of ability to sort of proactively look at to see if there's so, for example, if there's maintenance due or if there's any errors error messages coming up on on the charger or that kind of stuff.

Lizzie Coles [00:09:36]:
Yeah. That's right. So these charge points, once they're connected via OCPEI and OCPP, which is 2 different operating systems that are supposedly universally recognized in the industry, they give you information back and forth about what the charger's doing, whether they're in use, whether it's available, whether it's broken, whether it's down, that type of thing. And all of that data is contained in dashboards on our platform. So you can see at any given time what's going on. So it's like your eyes and ears as a as a owner of a

Enthusiastic Podcast Host [00:10:04]:
charge point as to what's happening. Yeah. Okay. So so what about, so obviously, as as we're sort of moving forwards with EV adoption and the number of charges are kind of increasing, can people can can your sort of dashboard, will it allow people to to kind of look at right. Okay. We've got full utilization on all of these charges. So that but, and actually, we've we've noticed we've even got a bit of queuing here going on. Yeah.

Liz Allan [00:10:37]:
Will it actually kind of identify, right, okay. Well, you can probably you'll probably need 2 or 3 more charges or something like that.

Lizzie Coles [00:10:44]:
Yeah. It could do. And I think we could do, you know, we regularly give feedback to customers around, you know, you've got a lot of utilization in this particular site. If you're using our energy management product, you can look to see if you've got any spare capacity because, obviously, it's not just charging on that site generally. There's other things like there might be a shop or a cafe or restaurant or or whatever there is. And I think we can monitor that site to say what capacity have you got available. And in doing so, we can suggest to people, actually, if you put a 2 more AC units in there, for example, the slightly lower powered, you could spread your utilization a bit. So, yes, we could help inform, you know, operators where they should be putting their units and what capacity they've got available to do so.

Liz Allan [00:11:28]:
Wow. So that's so that would make a a massive difference for somebody kinda moving forward. So okay. What would a what would a day in the life of of somebody using using your dashboard look like? I mean, as in Yeah. You know, what what would that who who would it be most you said, you know, anybody with a car park. Who who who mostly are your, you know, kind of the customers that you've

Lizzie Coles [00:11:51]:
got? Customers. Yeah. So our main our main clients really are people who've either got fleets who are managing workplace charging. So, you know, if they're charging at vans or they've got depot charging. So a fleet manager, for example, or a utilities manager who's managing a work car park, or it could be someone who's working on in within, like, a hotel reception, if you like. So it kind of depends on their role in the business. But anyone who's kind of got that sort of facilities overview, who wanna know what's, you know, who managing people charging at their workplace, that would be one use case for the sort of, you know, the workplace charging. And then from the public side of things, a day in life of them is actually understanding utilization and cost.

Lizzie Coles [00:12:30]:
So how much are these things earning me? And, you you know, often, we find that sort of work workplace charging, the fact that they log in once every couple of weeks is a good thing because nothing's broken and it's all fine. Whereas someone who's a top tier CPO whose business is that is public charging, they'll be in it on a daily basis checking to make sure there's no errors, there's no issues to be reported, there's no maintenance, you know, coming up, or there's no problems for drivers. And either use case is solved or supported by

Liz Allan [00:13:01]:
the Fuse back office system. Blimey. Okay. So okay. So if if we look at I don't because I don't know how many how many, I don't normally ask people about competitors. And I don't know how many you don't need to say who they are.

Lizzie Coles [00:13:16]:
But Yeah.

Liz Allan [00:13:17]:
If would you say how many how many competitors would you say are out there in the market compare you know, because I I heard it I've heard I've heard news quite a lot.

Lizzie Coles [00:13:30]:
Yeah. You know, but compared

Liz Allan [00:13:31]:
to what other people do, are you offering something that's kind of very unique or, you know, are there other companies that are kind of offering similar products? Or

Lizzie Coles [00:13:41]:
There are a few out there. Yeah. Of course. And they're offering a similar flavor of those, and I'll probably get shot if I mention who they are. But, yes, there are 

Liz Allan [00:13:49]:
No worries.

Lizzie Coles [00:13:51]:
But there are a few out there. But I think, you know, our strengths lie in in our sort of customer service, our offering, and the fact that we're UK based. And, you know, our our system is because it's very it's a complex landscape we're in, it's actually quite simple to use. So we've tried to make it sort of as frictionless as possible. If you don't wanna use log in to another platform or another system at work, you just wanna go in, see a dashboard, see what's going on with the chargers. Job done. So I think from that perspective, I think our sort of USP is around our sort of service and sort of customer experience offering within the dashboard. Mhmm.

Lizzie Coles [00:14:27]:
And we're generally quite fast in terms of time to market in our reliability side of things as well. It's quite a stable offering. And, you know, because we're focused, on, you know, b to b customers and and offering the driver apps, you know, it allows us to be very much focused on that. We're not manufacturing stuff. We are hardware agnostic, so we're not having to worry about installations as well as building software as well as well as doing everything else. So it's quite a nice sort of targeted place place to be if you like.

Enthusiastic Podcast Host [00:14:58]:
I was gonna say so do you you also integrate payment into everything as well, don't you?

Lizzie Coles [00:15:05]:
Yeah. We do. So we've got a number of different payment, you know, manufacturers of payment readers, like the actual contact readers, if you like, we we liaise with those and the also the the back office sort of payment processing side of things. So all of that data is kind of aggregated into the platform so you can see the performance of, you know, the contactless payments coming through the web payments if it's on Stripe or or whatever it is. And so you have essentially a full picture of how your charge point, your asset really, is performing, be it in the public space or in workplace.

Liz Allan  [00:15:38]:
I was gonna say because, like, we talked about this before. We started recording, didn't we, about the the the customer journey Yeah. Or all of these things is kind of quite different across the different public charging and private networks. You know? Yeah. I know that we've got we've got the the the, charge point regulations that came out last November. Yeah. Therefore, that, you know, it kinda started off with, pricing metrics, didn't it? You know, clear clear pricing. And then there's kind of over I think it's just I think most of it the rest of it comes in most of it comes in the rest of this year, doesn't it? I think it's November.

Liz Allan [00:16:17]:
So reliability, helpline, open data, and then there's roaming within I think it's November next year, isn't it? So all of this has to be integrated. Is this all or everything that you can offer a charge point operator so that it's it's kinda together now?

Lizzie Coles [00:16:36]:
Yeah. Essentially. So what what we're sort of, you know, pulling together now at the moment, because obviously the the the bulk of the requirements come in in November this year, is basically offering, like, a a a toolkit as it were, to support charge point operators or workplaces, but it's mainly charge point operators in the public space, to be compliant with the regulation. And, you know, there's there's the premise behind the relet regs are great, actually, because it's all about making the the user experience better for the customer and making public charging more accessible and just better easier to use, which is overdue, if you like. Because to be honest,

Liz Allan [00:17:11]:
it is a

Lizzie Coles [00:17:11]:
bit of a free for all. You can install any different flavor of hardware, payment reader, you know, app. There's the whole all of those things always have to work together in tandem to actually deliver a decent experience. And I think some of the regs that are coming in, are making that a lot better. So, for example, making sure that all DC units have to have a contactless reader. I mean, it's infinitely less friction for most people just to be able to tap their card. They used it's a it's a rehearsed, you know, behavior for a lot of people. So I think that's great.

Lizzie Coles [00:17:42]:
But I think as as we spoke briefly before, it feels in some ways we might have missed a trick actually because if you just skip to the point where we're doing plug and charge or also charge, you wouldn't pass the cost of, you know, getting a payment reader and contactless readers retrospectively installed onto these units as as a problem that, you know, the industry then have to solve as well. So I think there's there's there's more to be done for sure to make this to make the whole experience better, but it's certainly a step in the right direction for sure. And we talked as well before we start recording about for sure.

Liz Allan [00:18:11]:
And we talked as well before we started recording about plug and charge, as well as the OEM side of things. So the vehicle manufacturers, and they it's about because it's about certain things talking to one another, isn't it? So it's the chart the car and the charger talking to each other. And then the it's talking to all the bits within the within the charger. So theoretically, you need you need the OEM on board. Don't you need the manufacturer on board in order to kind of if you want to move the EV driver journey to be you know, if you want it to be the most seamless it can be, that's kind of what you need, really, isn't it?

Lizzie Coles [00:18:51]:
It is really. And I think, you know, that's quite a hard conversation with some of these big OEMs. And a lot of them are supporting it, and it's all it's the I never get I never get the number right. It's iOS 15118.

Liz Allan [00:19:02]:
1 18. Yeah. Something like that.

Lizzie Coles [00:19:04]:
Yeah. Yeah. That's the kind of communication standard that, you know, these the charge point units and the cars all have to have to work in tandem, would all have to be aligned. And it's certainly getting better, but I think there are there'll be some legacy units out there and legacy cars that won't support that. That is a challenge because, you know, it then calls into question people having newer EVs all the time, and the costs are prohibitive. And so it is it is a difficult conversation to be had. But I think if we could, it basically turns your car into a wallet, essentially. So, you know, it's quite nice.

Lizzie Coles [00:19:36]:
You don't have to worry about it. And providing you've got, you know, an up to date card or payment method associated, you can rock up to a charge point in the public network, which, you know, and it'll be a seamless experience. So I think there is more to be done but I think given, you know, like I say, given what I've said, it's a good step in the right direction for sure. And Infuys is an organization given that we're UK based and very, very keen to be that trusted partner behind EV charging for for customers. So it's something that we're very keen to support people with to make sure that we we we're all compliant.

Liz Allan [00:20:11]:
And like you say, so a lot of the stuff that you're providing will give that charge point operator some of the seamless service that they can give they can offer to their to their, you know, the EV drivers. But some of it is kind of that, as you said, about the, you know, kind of the manufacturers, but also what So it's the vehicle manufacturers, but it's sometimes it's also the manufacturers of the charge points. Yeah. Because of the fact so if we can't get to plug and charge within a certain number of years, then what we need to be doing is actually making the EV driver journey seamless as well as we possibly can in other ways, which is kind of you know, you don't want to if we're looking at mass adoption, you don't want an EV drive a new EV driver to kind of try 3 or 4 networks out and go, do I do this first or do I do that first? Can I use a contact well, yes? We can all use contactless but actually there's still do you tap and plug? Do you plug and tap? Which way do you do it? Should you do a little dance first?

Lizzie Coles [00:21:15]:
Yeah.

Liz Allan [00:21:15]:
You know, this kind of stuff. It's we need to have that all working, don't we? You know?

Lizzie Coles [00:21:20]:
Yeah. We absolutely do. And I think, you know, it's it's not obvious when you first get a car. I mean, even me, who's quite a big car nerd. It's and also, you always find yourself if you have if you don't have a charger at home, it might be different. But if you do have a mostly charge at home, when you go to the public network, it's always like an edge case. It's the journey you do the least. And you find yourself going, okay.

Lizzie Coles [00:21:42]:
What's it going to be? Is it going to be an app? Is it gonna be a contactless reader? Where are we going? You know, you've you've kids tired and screaming in the back. You just don't need it. And I think also you just need it to work as well, which, in some cases, is not always the case, as I'm sure is widely reported. It's certainly not as bad as I think people think it is, for sure. But I think in addition to that, the the the regs are asking CPOs to publish reliability report, which really will hold a lot of people accountable to making sure that their network is, you know, is reliable and is, you know, something that can be depended upon by drivers. So but I do think there's probably more to sort of standardize some of these user journeys just to make it a bit more obvious. Yeah. You know, there's a lot of to be done there because it shouldn't be open for interpretation every single time you get a new app, probably.

Liz Allan [00:22:31]:
I know it'd be a bit like, you getting a new phone without the box, you know, or without the instructions or without all this kind of stuff, wouldn't it? You know? We've all this kind of stuff, wouldn't we? You know? We've all moved from from kind of like the old, I used to have an an old brick Nokia. Yeah. You know what I mean? That could only just about it could do was it, oh god. It had like a maybe a minor game on it or something like that, you know, like tennis or something ridiculous. But, you know, we've gone from the bricks to something which is like a computer in your hand.

Lizzie Coles [00:23:05]:
Yeah.

Liz Allan [00:23:05]:
But, actually, we've gone through that with, you know, with information that's helped us to understand it. And that kind of feels like that's what we need with charging. Isn't it?

Lizzie Coles [00:23:16]:
And that it does, really. And I think it's some of these, like, hygiene factors that you just start to know and understand. I mean, even if they are, you know, supported by 2 of the main manufacturers, but things like Face ID and Apple Pay and stuff, they all should just be kind of, you know, learnt things that people are using. And I think another thing to mention about the industry is that, you know, there's a lot of strong digital product people out there who've built good consumer-facing apps that use these things well. And I think there are so many discrepancies in how you could implement these things across many different apps and sorts of user flows that we've got out there. I think it will get better. It will get standardized for sure. But it just needs to become a bit more sort of, I don't know, obvious, I think, to people.

Lizzie Coles [00:24:02]:
So it's not so useful.

Liz Allan [00:24:04]:
Because it's kind of, like I say, I have actually been to charges where there's no information on it or very, very limited information. And it's kind of like, hang on a minute. I'm just going to get my crystal ball out now and just see oh, today I'm on this one. It might be this journey. You know? It is just kind of having it. And we and we don't wanna I was gonna say, just as an aside, we don't wanna be chucking QR codes on stuff that could have be hacked or whatever. I've just written a a newsletter about this recently about the kind of hacking and stuff using QR codes. But there needs to be something, doesn't there, that you can link to that actually makes sense that you so you can yeah.

Lizzie Coles [00:24:46]:
Because once you've done it a few times, it's it's okay. But it's that kind of level of early understanding that also tells me if the thing's working or not. Give it to me in real-time. I need to know before I get there.

Liz Allan [00:25:03]:
Yeah. What's the point in me getting there when I've got 40 miles left on my range? Yeah. And my car can do it. But if I'd known yours wasn't working, I'd have gone somewhere else or at least sent me to another one that's within, you know, local area.

Lizzie Coles [00:25:21]:
Yeah. And I think, again, the regs will bring about some of this availability and reliability data in real-time. It's like every 30 seconds, we've got to publish it. So in theory, you  should be able to plan ahead. But even when you get there, it's still just having a bit of sort of commonality behind some of these instructions. If you're a first-time EV driver, every day is a new day. It's it's really hard work. And and I think also, it's funny because coming from CPO as well, it's no joke changing those stickers across every unit.

Lizzie Coles [00:25:51]:
You know? There are a lot of different factors involved. And you think, god. I forgot about the stickers on there. They all have to change. You know? So you've got, like, one shot in some cases to get this right. So it's you know, we'd welcome a bit of user testing and sort of validation around what works for people rather than just trying to surmise it. And, you know, a lot of these things, you know, we're building stuff, and not all of us have been long term EV drivers either. So it's like really getting into the mindset of a customer.

Lizzie Coles [00:26:17]:
And I think, you know, there's a lot of things that have been built by people who haven't even driven an EV or charged on a public charge point. And I think that's another thing where we could really work to close the gap. But getting feedback and some validation would be great, you know, from drivers.

Liz Allan [00:26:32]:
And like you say, it's if we look at it. We both talked about your work at Agile and continuous improvement. It's all the same thing. It's my kind of the Kaizen side and lean. It's about getting things right the first time because if you don't do it right the first time, you've got to go back and retrofit stuff.

Lizzie Coles [00:26:51]:
It's expensive and that Yeah.

Liz Allan [00:26:52]:
And that yeah. Exactly. That cost money. And why didn't you actually ask the customer what they wanted in the first place? Maybe they didn't know what they wanted when you first started, but there's no reason to keep them out of the loop when you move forward. You've gotta keep asking them the questions because how else Yeah. You know? How else do you know whether you are giving them what they want?

Lizzie Coles [00:27:11]:
Also, just watch them try to do it. We'll give you endless amounts of feedback as to how everyone is dealing with it. You know? And I think in every setting as well, whether it's public charging or even workplace, I mean, the last thing you wanna do when you're trying to finish your shift as a van driver is faff about trying to figure out how to plug your car in or get the charge started. You know, it's, so this yeah. There's certainly a lot more to be done, I think, from that user experience.

Liz Allan [00:27:38]:
Yeah. And it is about because it it's gotta be customer first, hasn't it?

Lizzie Coles [00:27:42]:
Yeah. It has now because it's gone way beyond the sort of early adopted tech audience.

Liz Allan [00:27:47]:
Yeah. Yeah. And and, actually, as I said to you before we started recording, as we go from wide-scale adoption, there are people out there who will not put up with anything not working the first time or not being told that something's not working or breaks down partway through because they'll be straight on social media.

Lizzie Coles [00:28:11]:
Yeah.

Liz Allan [00:28:11]:
Won't they? They'll just be, you know, on social media going, rah rah rah. This doesn't blah blah blah. EVs are, and charges are, and all this kind of

Lizzie Coles [00:28:22]:
Yeah. Exactly. And I think when, you know, we're in the position where we're trying to hang all this stuff together, and it's tough because I think perhaps what people don't realise is that there are so many different variables going on here. There's the software side of it. There are the communication protocols, the manufacturer, the payment manufacturer, the car, and, you know, the person, the site, and the power supply. There are a lot of different factors that make up the optimal experience for sure. So it's, yeah, it's, it's a tricky one, but exciting, nonetheless, to be honest. Like you like you say, this kind of this fast it is a fast moving feast, isn't it? Yeah. It's like the technical side. 

Liz Allan [00:28:59]:
Yeah. It's probably a bit like I've never been to them because of being Coeliac, so I can't. But you know where they are. There's a little sushi bar where it goes round in a circle. You see, it's kind of like, oh, and it's done and then I'm back again. There's another one. It's kind of like that, isn't it?

Lizzie Coles [00:29:12]:
Yeah.

Liz Allan [00:29:13]:
So but, actually, we are heading in a good direction. And the fact that you're able to provide these back office systems for, you know, for the charge point operators and car park owners or whoever runs whoever decides to run those charges is fantastic. What would you do? What kind of thing would happen when people find out about what you do at Fuze? Yeah. And obviously, as you say, you've moved from a charge point operator to kind of an organisation that runs back office systems. Yeah. What sort of thing surprises you about what people are asking you? Like, you could be surprised about what I've just asked you. You know? Are there any things that people, you know, you kinda like, oh, I wasn't expecting that question?

Lizzie Coles [00:29:58]:
It's a tricky one. I think a lot of people say, well, oh, my workplace has got a car park. Can I have a couple of charges? And I'm like, yeah. You can. And so I think people are still quite sort of, like, not turned on to it. And I think from a family and friend perspective, they're like, oh, we live too far away in the middle of the countryside. Can we have an electric electric car? And I was like, yes. Yes.

Lizzie Coles [00:30:19]:
You can. I live in the middle of nowhere, as you can see. 

Liz Allan [00:30:23]:
For those of you listening, she's got beautiful fields in the background, and they look gorgeous. And she has been talking about her 4-year-old as well, possibly the one you were talking about about the child screaming in the back of the car.

Lizzie Coles [00:30:37]:
Yes. Yes. That one. We can't understand why it takes so long to charge the car, so we quickly switched to a Rapids, and it took a lot less.

Liz Allan [00:30:45]:
Well, that's always a good thing, but screaming children is always a difficult one when you're a mum with a small child.

Lizzie Coles [00:30:54]:
Absolutely. Perhaps they should be part of the driving test now that covers that challenge, dealing with a child in the car whilst driving.

Liz Allan [00:31:04]:
I think maybe let's just leave that one for now.

Lizzie Coles [00:31:08]:
The next topic.

Liz Allan [00:31:10]:
Yes. Oh my god. If we look ahead to what Fuuse wants to do over the next few years, what would you say that would look like?

Lizzie Coles [00:31:24]:
I think I mean, we're, you know, very committed to being the trusted partner behind EV charging, and I think it's more of that. I think there could be international expansion on the horizon. There could be more technical innovation, things like v two x, which I can't confess I know too much about. But I think there's lots of different avenues there, but I think it's about being able to provide these businesses with a reliable offering to run their charge points. And I think it's what's needed. It helps the public network, and it helps fleets and workplace charging electrify their, you know, their vehicles. And it's something that we're quite passionate about, and it shouldn't be so hard in the future. So I think we're we're keen to keep it simple and and make it reliable for everyone.

Liz Allan [00:32:10]:
And because you're an agile company, Yeah. You can, you know, like I said about that sushi bar, that's kind of how you as that sushi bar changes, you can kind of keep changing the iterations and things like that, can't you?

Lizzie Coles [00:32:25]:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think we know we've got a good customer base now, and I think we'll learn from them. We're learning together. We're taking the feedback, and we're testing learning and iterating on features and navigating this together, really, which is, you know, it's a good place to be.

Liz Allan [00:32:40]:
And because you are a bit of a car freak geek. No, not freak. That's not the right word. A car is a pet, an ex-petrol head convert.

Lizzie Coles [00:32:52]:
Complete convert, of course.

Liz Allan [00:32:54]:
I suppose, like you say, this all comes together quite well for you, sort of seeing the driving side and the, oh, gosh. This is what this, you know, you've had the hardware through Pod Point, and now you've got, oh, this is what this looks like now. And connecting all of that, this has there any be has there ever been any times where you've kinda thought, oh, right. Okay. So now I this has all come together. I know there are other things that we can think of. Are you looking at different product offerings because maybe you've connected the dots as it were?

Lizzie Coles [00:33:25]:
I mean, a little bit. It's hard to say, really, because I suppose working from home, we don't actually get to drive that far. But I think there's probably something in this pay and charge and auto charge area. I think there's a lot more we could do in that side of things. You know? And I also feel that now, being an EV driver and working in the industry, I'm a lot more confident in convincing people that they could definitely drive an electric car. It's 100% possible in any situation. And, even last night, my husband was like, maybe we could have just 2 electric cars. I was like, yes.

Lizzie Coles [00:33:58]:
My work here is done now. Thanks. So, you know, it's definitely starting to come together.

Liz Allan [00:34:06]:
And that and that in itself, like you say, if you if your family, your husband, you know, people are starting to recognize this, you know, we're also going to get to a point where most people will have a friend, a family member, a colleague who will either have an EV or will be thinking about it if you've got an EV. And they're more likely hopefully, she's saying, okay, more likely to come and ask you the question. You know? I mean, I've I've got a friend who her husband is, he's moving to electric in November, so it's not that long since we it feels like January was 2 seconds ago. But, anyway, yes, though, in November. And she's been asking me questions about charging, about having a home charger, how it works, you know, and I've talked to her about regenerative braking and things like that. Yeah. I mean, you know, I've learned this. I love sharing it, you know, because actually, do you know what? It's not that difficult once you what if you it's not I was going to say it's not that difficult to share with others.

Lizzie Coles [00:35:13]:
No. And it certainly isn't. I think certainly when you've experienced it yourself. And I think, you know, with my sort of friend set who are generally petrol heads, having you know, nothing has overtaken me since I've had an electric car. So, you know, at the end of the day, they're worried about the driving experience and whether or not it's going to be the same when you miss your v eight or whatever. No. It's nice to have your music louder.

Liz Allan [00:35:40]:
Well, yes. Well, you can can hear it.

Lizzie Coles [00:35:43]:
You can.

Liz Allan [00:35:43]:
Yeah, that's the thing. But you can also have your child screaming in the back of the car easier because it's quieter. If you turn your music off and there's just the sound of the road, maybe you can lull the child to sleep.

Lizzie Coles [00:35:57]:
I've done a few of those. Digby has had a few danger naps in the back of the car because it's just a lot quieter.

Liz Allan [00:36:05]:
Yeah. And is the experience of an EV, you know, if there's probably people who listen to this podcast have been driving EVs for a while? But if you haven't, take one out for a test drive. That's the biggest thing.

Lizzie Coles [00:36:21]:
Yeah. And then you know what? There is a much nicer way of getting these test drives, too. There are all sorts of different events like Everything Electric? Is it up in Harrogate? There's all there's, and it's starting to disrupt how you access new car test drives, which is great. I mean, from a female's perspective, that was always challenging, wasn't it, going into dealerships and that type of thing? But there are so many nice sorts of industry events. So I took Digby up to Harrogate last year, and it was, like, his best day out ever. I mean, he found an electric chainsaw, an electric lawnmower, and, you know, the veining guys gave him a green Taycan as a toy car. And it was, you know, it was starting to become a real kind of family event, and you could go test drive a car and put the child in. And it's it's a much sort of nice, less frictionless way to actually get involved and actually try these things out.

Lizzie Coles [00:37:16]:
You know, and it's not many people who've driven one and thought, no. Don't really like that.

Liz Allan [00:37:20]:
Oh my god. Honestly, so talking about Michele, who works with me in Full Circle, she and I think I've talked about this a few times on the podcast, but she is a person I've never known. I've never known anybody to get an EV as fast. So she drove 1 in Harrogate, everything electric in men. She that was on the sat no. Friday. Then, on Tuesday, she and her husband test-drove. So it was an MG 4 X Power.

Lizzie Coles [00:37:48]:
Nice. Yeah.

Liz Allan [00:37:50]:
And then so they did that was a Tuesday, and then they had the car by the Friday. I've never known anything like it. Honestly, it was amazing. 

Lizzie Coles [00:37:58]:
So that is incredible, which is very different to my COVID experience with one of my cars. I could have grown another human in the time it took. But I think I think everyone was in that situation, whether it's a petrol or or electric car. But, yeah, that's amazing.

Liz Allan [00:38:13]:
It's been a short time to market for sure.

Liz Allan [00:38:16]:
And just they just loved it. You know? I mean, their first charging experience was pretty horrific or his first charging because, of course, he didn't talk to his wife about

Lizzie Coles [00:38:24]:
Oh, fine.

Liz Allan [00:38:25]:
What's, you know, charging or anything like that. But but, you know, the actual car, they love absolutely love it. So and they've got a home charger now, which is which is great, but they just need to get that again, this is other people have this. They need to get that confidence with the public charging network and the private charging network if they are available. But, you know, to make it easy for people who have started,

Lizzie Coles [00:38:57]:
Yeah. Absolutely. To kind of spread the word at the end of the day. And you know what? I don't really miss going to petrol stations. I have to

Liz Allan [00:39:03]:
I don't. The only other time I go is if I need to go and get some food that I've forgotten to buy, you know.

Lizzie Coles [00:39:09]:
Same here. Yeah. Exactly.

Liz Allan [00:39:11]:
And I walk through the forecourt, and I'm like, oh, that stinks. This stinks. I don't miss this.

Lizzie Coles [00:39:18]:
Exactly. Yeah. It's quite nice just to come home and know that it will be charged at home. It's great.

Liz Allan [00:39:23]:
Absolutely. So okay. Let's finish on a question.

Lizzie Coles [00:39:28]:
Ok

Liz Allan [00:39:29]:
And I've asked this fair this magic wand question before. Okay? But not, I'd ask it all the time. If you had a magic wand and could make one thing better to do with, you know, kind of either Fuuse or the charging network or whatever, what would that be?

Lizzie Coles [00:39:46]:
It's probably consistency around how the charge charges behave because we're agnostic of the manufacturer. And sort of between the spectrum of different sort of different unit types, they often behave differently even though we've got a common protocol. And I think that would I think some of those nuances are passed to the drivers and passed to us, and it would just be nice to balance that out a bit because either you're working around it or, you know, it's hard to predict what's going to happen. So I think having some consistency in that side of things would be good.

iz Allan [00:40:23]:
Okay. I like that. I think that is a really good place to stop on, Lizzie, because Okay. And and I and I really I really think that that there's gonna be a lot of information that you've given people today that, you know, is gonna be really beneficial for them. So but for those charge point manufacturers listening, please listen to her.

Lizzie Coles [00:40:45]:
Yeah. Thanks.

Liz Allan [00:40:48]:
And please do what she's saying because it's gonna benefit all of us because it will, won't it? It'll benefit it'll benefit everybody using using the public networks or, you know, whatever networks. So yeah.

Lizzie Coles [00:40:58]:
Yeah. Absolutely.

Liz Allan [00:41:00]:
But I'm gonna say thank you and say thank you for joining me. It's been brilliant. I'm gonna actually say to everybody listening and watching, please share this. Please share Lizzie's been really interesting and quite humorous as well, which is great. And, actually, you know and she has to put up with a 4 year old screaming lots. But that's fine because we all have been there, I'm sure. But but for those of you who have been listening and watching, please share this episode. That's the only way we're gonna be able to get more people to listen to what we're talking about and, you know, and then that's only gonna benefit all of us.

Liz Allan [00:41:36]:
So so, yes, please do that. Like, subscribe, share, comment on posts, etcetera etcetera. Anything like that is very, very much appreciated. So gonna say thank you again, Lizzie.

Lizzie Coles [00:41:49]:
Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Liz Allan [00:41:51]:
Was it alright for your first podcast?

Lizzie Coles [00:41:53]:
It was brilliant. Yeah. It was. It was completely at home.

Liz Allan [00:41:56]:
There you go. You see? All good. Well, thank you. I'm gonna say to everybody else, thank you for listening and watching, and I shall see you next time. Bye bye. Bye.