Episode 128: Liz Allan and Doctor Euan McTurk - Charge Saint and the Future of EV Charging

Episode 128: Liz Allan and Doctor Euan McTurk - Charge Saint and the Future of EV Charging.

Liz Allan welcomes back Dr Euan McTurk, consultant battery electrochemist and co-founder of Charge Saint. Since his last appearance in early 2023, Euan has been busy tackling one of EV drivers' biggest frustrations: blocking charging bays by non-EVs or inconsiderate EV drivers. Euan shares how the game-changing Charge Saint app enables EV drivers to report charging issues instantly, helping charge point operators take action faster.

Beyond Charge Saint, Liz and Euan explore public charging etiquette, myths about EV charging, and the broader challenges of misinformation about electrification. They also discuss heat pumps, green energy, and Euan’s extensive work in battery research and EV advocacy.

Quote of the Episode:
"Charge Saint is a complete game changer. We give visual evidence that makes it easier for charge point operators to take action, fix faults faster, and keep the network running." - Dr Euan McTurk

Euan McTurk Bio:
Dr Euan McTurk is a consultant battery electrochemist at Plug Life Consulting and co-founder of Charge Saint. With over 15 years of experience in the EV and battery sector, Euan has worked across battery design, electric vehicle infrastructure, and renewable energy storage. He is well known for Plug Life Television, a YouTube channel dedicated to EV myth-busting, battery science, and sustainable transport. He has worked extensively with charge point operators, local authorities, and industry leaders to improve EV charging infrastructure. Euan has also contributed to initiatives such as Stop Burning Stuff, EV UK, and the Faster Project, helping to combat misinformation about EVs and renewable energy.

Euan McTurk Links:
Website: https://chargesaint.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/euanmcturk

Episode Keywords:
EV charging infrastructure, EV etiquette, charge point operators, blocked charge points, broken charge points, Char

Transcript

Liz Allan [00:00:02]:
So I now have a returning guest and I'm so pleased that that he's back. I have got doctor Ewan McTurk back on the podcast. Euan, it's so lovely to see you again. Thank you ever so much for joining me.

Euan McTurk [00:00:18]:
Thanks for having me back. Great to great to be back. It's been a while, hasn't it?

Euan McTurk [00:00:22]:
There have been so many episodes of the podcast since then. It's been really taking off.

Liz Allan [00:00:26]:
You and I were just discussing this because I have a little spreadsheet on Google. You were episode 18 Prophylaxis. Which was which went out, yeah. It went out in 2022. It's it's just it's mad. It really is mad. 

Liz Allan [00:00:46]:
It was probably 2023 when it went out, and now I'm looking at it. But it's just, yeah. It went out on 11th January 2023. See, look. I've even got my schedule in front of me. So it's incredible to think how long ago it is since we've spoken. But, yeah, thank you ever so much. Do you know I wanted to just start for those who've not listened to episode 18, back in the days where I was a bit less confident about you know, and I didn't know very much about kind of EVs and charging and renewables and all this other all these other stuff, and that's the reason why I started.

Liz Allan [00:01:26]:
Let's let's talk a little bit about your background, basically I need to introduce you properly. Euan is a consultant battery electrochemist at Plug Life Consulting. He's also is the Co-Founder of Charge Saint. Now let's talk a bit about your background. But my question that I want you to think about is, why did a battery electrochemist need to set found a company called Charge Saint? And we'll talk about what Charge Saint is in a minute.

Euan McTurk [00:02:02]:
Yeah. So that was it was sheer fluke that, Charge Saint ended up becoming a thing. But the kind of the earlier point of this, I suppose, is that I've is that I've been working on and driving EVs since 2009. And over that time, I've seen charging infrastructure done well. I've seen it done terribly. And I've seen the injustice of when someone blocks a charging bay either over the petrol or diesel car or with, arguably worse, with an electric car and then they betray their brethren by not even attempting to to plug in and just treat it as a private parking space. And, you know, you go on to any of the EV driver forums and, everyone's had that that happened to them. You know, the space has been ICE-d and other parts blocked by an internal combustion engine vehicle.

Euan McTurk [00:02:51]:
You ask them to move, they might move, or they might just ignore you, and laugh in your face about it because they're not inconvenienced that you can't get a charge even though they are blatantly in the wrong. These are the same people who would block a disabled bay, for example

Liz Allan [00:03:05]:
Yeah.

Euan McTurk [00:03:06]:
Or, you know, or park on double yellow lines and so on. They just think that they can do whatever they want. And the problem is the the EV drivers have not really had an ability to effectively deal with this and make sure that something will get done about it. So, you know, this was all happening during day to day EV driving for me, whilst I was still very much, you know, working in the lab full time as an electrochemist, then forming my consultancy and and working across a wide range of projects. But the consultancy, as well as looking on at a fundamental battery electric chemistry, I was looking at electric vehicle system engineering. I was looking and I say was as if it was past tense. I still am. You know, charge static energy storage systems and charging infrastructure because I've been rubbing shoulders with quite a lot of people in that sector for quite a long time, and it was quite nice to be in a position where you not just know the fundamental electrochemistry and how things work in the lab, but how things work when they're when they're integrated into real world devices and put into real world use.

Euan McTurk [00:04:10]:
So in 2020, Transport Scotland issued a call for ways to deal with ICE-ing and finally nip this in the bud.

Liz Allan [00:04:21]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Euan McTurk [00:04:22]:
So there was a former colleague of mine from when I was a full time electrochemist who's basically the the the 5th Beatle in this story because, he didn't end up being the the 3rd Co-Founder. But one of his mutual friends who comes from an Internet of Things background, Colin Balfour, Co-Founder, and myself were kind of thrown together, by this kind of chance encounter, to do with this call. And the pair of them had come up with some sort of fantabulous physical contraption that, would be strapped to a charge point, and it was hardware based. And it was, you know, it was gonna be all seeing, and it was gonna be brilliant. But what they hadn't considered was that that would have cost money, quite a bit of money. And knowing charging networks inside out as I did through the consultancy, I knew that there was absolutely no way that anyone was gonna buy that, especially for, 7 kilowatt type 2 charge point that doesn't cost very much to install. And the return on investment on that takes a very long time. The revenue from it is a lot less than a rapid charger, of course, because it's a totally different business model.

Euan McTurk [00:05:24]:
So I said to them, well, you know, we we need to kind of take this back to square 1 and come up with something that's that's economically feasible as well as technically feasible. And so we scribbled the idea for Charge Saint basically on the back of a napkin and and submitted it at the 11th hour. The top three projects were funded, and we came forth.

Liz Allan [00:05:45]:
Oh.

Euan McTurk [00:05:46]:
And at that point, we realised, well, that was what we did with a very hurried submission. Yeah. What if we actually flesh this out a bit? And fast forward to the beginning of 2025, and our vision for Charge Saint has come true. The the app is out now, which we'll obviously explain a bit more about in a minute. It is now available on Apple and Android, is being regularly used by EV drivers. But we'll go into that story later on, but it's been much more of a success than even we had envisaged. And there's a lot of excitement about it, not just from EV drivers, but from the charging sector as well.

Liz Allan [00:06:22]:
And, actually, that in itself, you know, I've had a variety of experiences at chargers. When we first spoke, as I said, my knowledge was minimal. And now two years on, it's changed so much. I've got so much more knowledge on this and understanding, and I've spoken to so many EV drivers. What you are providing now as one of your, businesses is amazing. You know, it great to see. I love innovation, and this is innovation in the making. So will you explain then what what Charge Saint is? You've kinda given given a bit of an overview.

Euan McTurk [00:07:19]:
A teaser. A teaser.

Liz Allan [00:07:20]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's wetting the appetite. So what does it do? I've got the app on my phone. People can download it. Like you said, you can download it on Apple or Android.

Liz Allan [00:07:38]:
So when they download the Charge Saint app, why would they wanna download it and what can they do with that once they've downloaded it? What situations can they deal with?

Euan McTurk [00:07:49]:
So Charge Saint is an app that allows an EV driver to report a blocked or broken charge point directly to the owner of that charge point so that they can take action to either fix the fault or stop the blockage from happening again. So, obviously, if a bay has been ICE-d, if it's been bay hogged by an EV that's not even been attempted to be plugged in, or if there is a fault that might not necessarily have been picked up by the charging network's back office, The charge point itself might think it's perfectly fine, but in reality, the CCS plug might have been, run over. It might have even been chopped off. You know, cable theft has been annoying us recently. The screen might be smashed. In fact, there's a real example from I'm pretty sure it was Glasgow or somewhere nearby a few years ago when there was a socketed type 2 charge point, so you're your conventional AC charge point on the street. Someone had shoved a cream egg into the socket, and it was like that for months because the charge point doesn't think there's anything wrong with it because nobody's tried to energise that socket. So as far as it's aware, it's fine.

Euan McTurk [00:08:53]:
But actually, no. It's, how do you eat yours, for that charge point? Apparently, it just kind of there for months until someone comes along with a pressure washer.

Liz Allan [00:09:05]:
Do you know what I also thought of then? I had Pac Man in my head, you know, with a with a cream egg going, through it.

Euan McTurk [00:09:13]:
There there are so many issues like that. Some of which are, you know, genuine accident and some of which are blatantly taking the micky. You know, where the back office hasn't you know, there's no sensor that's detected that there's something wrong with the charge point. So, we provide visual photographic evidence of this, which is far easier for an EV driver to use than a call centre helpline that they might have to hold on you know, be on hold for ages for or a text based, you know, kind of chat box thing where you're like yeah. Yeah. Even just like a web form.

Euan McTurk [00:09:51]:
So for example, with Charge Place Scotland, I've had to report my fair share of of faults before. And it's like, you know, you find the phone number, you call up, you hopefully get through fairly quickly. They cannot see what you're seeing, and it might be difficult to describe over the phone. And then if it's a web form thing, I am not gonna sit there, in the driver's seat of the car tapping out laboriously on my mobile home. I'll do that on my desktop when I get home. And when I get home, I can't be bothered anymore. So you lose the the impetus to report this, which is important because we need these to be reported so that they can be fixed. We give the photographic evidence that's required, you know, driver's eye view, and that means the engineers at the, at the the depot, at the headquarters, wherever, should be able to triage that problem, to diagnose that that fault, without having to do a preliminary diagnostic visit.

Euan McTurk [00:10:44]:
So they can turn up with all the parts and all the tools that they need in the van to get that unit back up and running as soon as possible. That's handy if you live in the middle of London. It's game changing if your charge point is in the Outer Hebrides. I mean, it takes absolutely ages to get someone across in a van to go and have a look to then go back to the central belt of Scotland to then go back again with the part. The cost savings from the charge point operator's perspective are huge in that sense, and the time saving for EV drivers to get a working charge point again is huge.

Euan McTurk [00:11:18]:
Similar idea with reporting blockages. You know, we we have the visual evidence of that vehicle being there at that location in front of this charge point at this time, with this signage that says that's EV charging only. Because, by the way, whether it's EV charging or whether it's, your regular pay and display parking, there are some unscrupulous individuals who when they get a penalty charge notice of a parking fine, go back and vandalize the signage near where they got the sign so that they say, oh, well, it wasn't obvious I wasn't meant to park here. With the evidence that you get on the Charge Site app, you know, the the local authority or the Charge Site operator or the car park owner, whoever it is, can turn around and go, well, that sign was very clearly readable, legible at this date and time when your car was in front of it. So it's complete it's a complete game changer. We give visuals that your ground-mounted sensors don't. The ANPR doesn't necessarily do either if it's a fixed point of view. And because it's entirely digital, it's super cheap for charging networks to deploy.

Euan McTurk [00:12:24]:
So there's a lot of provisional interest from from charging networks. There's hopefully gonna be some big announcements soon. There is a lot of interest from local authorities as well. They've been very enthusiastic about this.

Liz Allan [00:12:35]:
I can imagine. So so that so as soon as so I I had a situation myself. Well, and my husband was talking to you earlier, wasn't he? Where have we had one where I've been on my own? And then we me and him have had one. When we weren't actually parking in this car park, we could see somebody had actually iced a space. You know, they'd parked they'd parked in in a space. But actually, so, if I go up to just to explain it to people. So you go, you see a car that is either plugged in plugged in.

Liz Allan [00:13:16]:
It's at at a 100%, and they've not moved their car, or it's blocked by a combustion or you've got a space that's blocked by a combustion engine. So open the Charge Saint app, and then what what are the prompts, Ewan?

Euan McTurk [00:13:30]:
So there'll be a couple of options available. If it's a vehicle, this is ICE-ing the bay. So in other words, it doesn't even have a socket on it, Then you choose, you know, obviously, report icing or report bay blocking if it's an EV that's misusing the bay or report broken charge point. The app then gives you very clear instructions. There's an onboarding wizard the first time you run each of those Right. Complete with example photographs. So you should have a good idea of the photos that you're gonna be taking. And from the plethora of reports that we've received so far, the overwhelming majority of EV drivers get it.

Euan McTurk [00:14:04]:
So that's great. You're if you're listening in, by the way, I'm aware that, you know, it's an incredibly simple straightforward app to use, but it also means there's minimal kind of communication, to kind of close that loop. Genuinely, thank you everyone who's been doing this. You've been doing a great job. Keep it up. But, basically, what we do is we show you the kind of photographs to take. We then give you a little reminder each time, you know, this is the photograph we'd like you to take just now, please. And then you take that, and then there's a few optional steps that you can do.

Euan McTurk [00:14:37]:
The more evidence, the merrier. Most people do the majority of the steps. So you just kind of go through that and then submit the report. The longest version of the report, if you were to do every single step from opening the app to submitting it, takes about 90 seconds. But this the kind of more average length one zero, you're easily under a minute and it's quite a discreet thing to do. So, yeah, again, it's it's all very self-explanatory. And if you forget anything at all, there's a little kind of help button in the corner of the screen which reminds you, okay, so this is how you do it. So, yeah, we've designed it to be as straightforward and as intuitive as possible and to make it as foolproof as possible.

Liz Allan [00:15:17]:
Nice. Cool. So, if I'm able, there was one that sounded ridiculous. Okay. There was a whole hub, and this car keeps doing this. I've been down there. It's on the way to kind of taking my son down to, ex, uni. And we go to this site in Bridgwater.

Liz Allan [00:15:38]:
And there's always a Tesla that's parked there, and it's not plugged in. But there's nobody else on the site. So and I've been told off by my husband and son because I'd be right. I'm going to report this now. You know? But, actually, so I've refrained from doing that because they keep telling me off, but I will do it, honestly. But what I was gonna say was, for this specific hub, how does that information go to that CPO? Or if they're not kind of, you know, like you said, you've got several CPOs who are interested, but there's a lot of CPOs out there. Is it about a 140-odd or something like that? CPOs? 

Euan McTurk [00:16:19]:
I can't remember. There's a lot. There's a lot. Yeah.

Liz Allan [00:16:21]:
So, how does it work? Where does it go if you don't have an automatic link with that CPO?

Euan McTurk [00:16:29]:
So, yeah, as we've both alluded to, Charge Saint works rather than previous kind of iterations of this where you needed the person who owns the vehicle that is blocking the charging bay to be registered on the same app, you know, the likes of your was it charge bumper, need to charge, something like that Okay. Where mean I do not want to discredit them because they were important as attempts to keep the charging network moving. But if you have a vehicle that's iced that charging bay, there's no way they will be on those. No. No. Even if they are on them, there's every possibility that the EV driver might just turn around and go, can't be bothered moving. What all that we need rather than having every single EV driver or and ICE driver signed up to our our system, all we need is the ChargePoint's owner to be signed up to that. So that means although, yeah, as you say, there's there's triple figures of charge point operators and, you know, triple figures of local authorities, etcetera, that is a much smaller number to sign up, especially when you've engaged with those local authorities and charge point operators as much as we have.

Euan McTurk [00:17:34]:
And they have been very enthusiastic about this because, funnily enough, the local authorities don't have a huge amount of money to spare, but they would appreciate it if they could get revenue from their charging infrastructure. In other words, people aren't blocking it. And if there is a solution that is incredibly cheap to deploy, that makes economic sense to them. Yeah. Likewise, charge point operators, every second that that charge point is blocked is revenue lost to them. So they wanna make sure that something's done about it. So if the chargeback operator has not signed up to us, we have a list of, you know, basically reports that don't have an organisation, an owner associated with them. And that all gets piled into there.

Euan McTurk [00:18:18]:
But we've got the geolocation. We've got the ID numbers and so on. As soon as a Charge Point operator signs up to us, they get reports about their charging infrastructure and their charging infrastructure alone. You know, you wouldn't want to spam Gridserve with what's going on at InstaVault. You know, so you make sure that,

Euan McTurk [00:18:39]:
You know, that it's just for their eyes only. We would also run checks on all of our historic orphaned reports, if you wish, where they didn't have a charge point owner associated with them. And, if we find any matches, we can show them. Well, historically, this has been a problem at these locations. So you'll get an insight into how often it happens. In fact, there have been some charged by operators who rather than wanting instant digital justice, wanting to be able to send a parking fine to the offending motorist, they're just curious to find out how often these bay blockages actually happen because, there's not really any proper statistics on icing because there are not cameras at every single charge point. There are not traffic wardens passing every single charge point at every single point of the of the day.

Liz Allan [00:19:30]:
Ther are no parking officers there either, are there?

Euan McTurk [00:19:33]:
No. Exactly. So, you know, if a tree falls in the forest, you know, no one's around, does it make a sound? Of course, it does. But, if a car ICEs a charge point and a traffic warden is not around to see it, has it iced the charge point? Of course, it has, but we've not been able to to lock that. Now we will have that evidence because there's a greater chance that there'll be an EV driver that needs that charge point that can report that. So, the insight that we give is invaluable, and it's also incredibly affordable to obtain versus having to deploy hardware at every single charge point.

Liz Allan [00:20:07]:
Oh, and, actually, you got if there are CPOs listening now, charge point operators listening now, I suggest that if you're not signed up, sign up to it because it's in your best interest. And secondly, data is king, you know. And, actually, you don't know what you don't know. If it isn't managed, if it's not monitored, it's not managed. So, you know, you've got people who who are actually using the Charge Saint app, who are ready to kinda, yeah, we're dobbing people in, but, actually, this is for this is long term. We have to do this. And, actually, I said this to you. You and I had a very long chat before we started recording, and I was basically saying that when we did our research Full Circle CI last year. A big chunk of the things that came up was to do with, you know, combustion engines, you know, that because basically, I asked I asked the question about what were the biggest issues that people found really annoying. And some of them were ICE-ing.

Liz Allan [00:21:13]:
There was abusive behaviour. There were people were talking about queuing. And actually, if you think about it, and this is not just for you for you, Euan. But if you think about it, if you've got somebody ICE-ing a bay, for example, they're blocking a charger, but then you've also got somebody who's sitting on a charger while the car's a 100% or they've or they're sitting at a charger, and they're not even plugged in because they just want a parking space. That all has a knock-on effect with abusive behaviour, queuing, you know, and all the other things. All of it all stacks up, doesn't it? So, actually, if you can manage this, you're gonna end up with less abuse with people getting angry because when are you leaving. When are you moving off the charger? Because actually, hopefully, it'll start quelling it a little bit. That's how that's how I see it, to be honest. I don't know what you think.

Euan McTurk [00:22:12]:
No. That's a really good point. And, not only that, but you touched upon a very valid point, which is the charging to a 100% on a rapid charger. Now that, of course, is a massive waste of time for everyone concerned because as we know, as the state of charge of a conventional lithium ion battery, and I could go into the the electrochemistry nerdery about what's coming up in the EV world. But, as a conventional lithium ion battery approaches a 100% state of charge, the charge power tapers off massively. And there's an episode of Plug Life Television that covers this in in more detail. I think it was the one, am I fine to charge my EV to a 100% or something to that effect? I should really know my own episodes I've done. It was one of one of the early ones I know.

Euan McTurk [00:22:57]:
I know. Yeah.

Liz Allan [00:22:57]:
Just need a spreadsheet like I do. You know?

Euan McTurk [00:23:00]:
So, basically, Plug Life Consulting responded at the back of Plug Llife Television and then took all my time away from being able to do loads of new episodes of Pluglife Television. And now Charge Saint has come along, and it's now a case of trying to spin the plates between the consultancy and Charge Saint. Goodness me. Life's tough being me. Goodness. Anyway Oh,

Liz Allan [00:23:16]:
I don't know what to say you, and, oh, I'm so feel so sad.

Euan McTurk [00:23:20]:
Yeah. Yeah. It's world's smallest violin. Anyway, but but, it charges a 100% on a rapid charger. So, yeah, that that that charge power starts to saper off pretty soon after 80%. Now, inevitably, you get your Audi Q8 E Tron drivers at this point who go, oh, well, my car keeps charging at really high power well above 90%. So, alright, you want to happen to balloon? We're talking general here. So 80% and above, you know, you you see a massive tapering off of charge power.

Euan McTurk [00:23:52]:
So bearing in mind, it's gonna take you potentially just as long to go from 80 to a 100% as it did to go from 10 ish to 80%. That's only adding 20% instead of 70. You are wasting your time going all the way to a 100%, especially in an era when somewhere in the region of 80% of the makes and models of new EV on the market today can do at least 200 real world miles of range per charge, not WLTP. We're talking the EV database real world range, which is far more accurate. You know, even your used EVs that are available now, there's plenty of 5 plus year old ones that can do near enough 200 if not over. Yeah. So, you know, how far do you really need to go on that next leg of your journey? Chances are you're gonna need to take a break for a whiz and a sandwich within the next couple of 100 miles anyway. So, you know, charge to 80% and then move on.

Euan McTurk [00:24:48]:
That is the quickest way. It's genuinely the quickest way to get across the country. The EV drivers have done experiments to prove this. So, yeah, that that final 20%, you know, 80 to a 100% on a rapid charger is wasting everybody's time. But that said, you know, there are some EVs that continue to genuinely take a decent charge power beyond this. So there is a cunning plan, which I've I've devised, which would be an algorithm, and I keep saying this this algorithm to any charge point operators, rapid charging operators that will listen, have a conditional stop on the charging session. So state of charge is greater than 80%, and charge power is less than name a reasonable number of kilowatts, maybe 30. You know? I know that obviously 30 is not particularly rapid, but say your car is genuinely capable of, you know, pulling very high tens, if not into the 100 of kilowatts above 80%.

Euan McTurk [00:25:48]:
And then it's maybe say 94, 95% that it starts just trickling away to absolute nothing. Cut it at that point. Have that conditional cutoff because you've gone below whether it's 30 kilowatts, whether it's 50 kilowatts, whatever we choose. That is that's fair because 80% means that you've got a decent amount of charge in the vehicle. Yeah. But that conditional charge speed means that, you know, you're you're tapering off. You're wasting everyone's time. Move on.

Euan McTurk [00:26:12]:
Tesla does a far more simple version, which is where if the supercharger is busy, then they set automatically set the limit of the charge state well, state of charge in the car to 80%, but they do allow the driver to manually override that.

Liz Allan [00:26:26]:
Oh, do they?

Euan McTurk [00:26:27]:
Yeah. Yeah. So you can swipe it up to a 100% if you want Yeah. Which I will admit with my old school model S. I do this. I do this, but that's that's only if I'm popping into the service station to grab, a proper lunch or something. In case I pop out and the car has spent maybe 5 or 10 minutes not taking power when it could have been at a reasonable charge rate. But inevitably, the car is at, say, 75% by the time I come back out, so I didn't need to swipe it all the way up.

Euan McTurk [00:26:58]:
But, you know, if you had that conditional cutoff that I've I've just described, that would have made it fair for everyone. And I think that's something that could be implemented by a savvy ChargePoint operator and should be

Liz Allan [00:27:11]:
I am still wagging my finger at you here, Euan. You know? And, actually, I'm gonna stop wagging it because I'm gonna challenge you about something you said when we first started talking about the 80% rule. Okay? You said, as we all know I'm gonna challenge you there because Because there are so many people and think about this. Right? You buy, you lease, you get a salary sacrifice, you get a secondhand, whatever. The EVs come through in whatever form, wherever from. Go out public charging. So at home, you've got you might be lucky to have cross payment solutions.

Liz Allan [00:27:56]:
You might have be lucky to have, a driveway or whatever, you know, or you just have to use public charging. How many people are told about the 80% rule? I don't think there's very many. I put a little finger up saying 0 Yeah.

Euan McTurk [00:28:14]:
Yeah. Yeah. Desperately.

Liz Allan [00:28:15]:
Because I really, really think there is a massive lack of education about that rule because no sorry. I'm gonna say this. No bugger knows. No bugger bugger tells you about this. If I hadn't been talking to people like you, I wouldn't know. I tell people about this as well. But, yeah, the first time I actually went on the on the EV rally, there was a couple of of old deers, bless them, at a charger at Heath near Heathrow. And they were sat dribbling away between 80 and 100.

Liz Allan [00:28:48]:
And, you know, nobody tells them. And so my question is, what do we do about this level of education? Where does it need to come from? Because I have lots of thoughts about this. About because, and I don't think I I think it's gotta come from a multitude of directions because people learn in different ways, and, actually, it depends how you've, like I say, how you've got that vehicle. Tell me what you think.

Euan McTurk [00:29:18]:
Definitely, the the dealers, car manufacturers and their dealers need to be doing more to educate people on optimum rapid charging patterns. Not so much from the point of view of etiquette to keep the network moving for everybody because, unfortunately, you know, you're dealing with a society that can be quite self-centred and can be quite selfish when you're on the road. I, you know, I move my car off the charger as soon as I'm done with it to free it up for other people. But there are some people for whom they just do not care about that. What they do care about is stuff that directly affects them. And that's incidentally why ChargeSync works because if you manage to give someone a parking fine for blocking a charging bay, that personally affected them. Oh, cool. In this case.

Euan McTurk [00:30:02]:
Yeah. But in this case, obviously, the the whole thing about charging to a 100% on a rapid charger, whereas if you only charged to 80% or if you kept an eye on the charge power if your car's dashboard tells you however many kilowatts it's drawing and you see it tapering off to a crazily low amount, if you move on, you save yourself time. Yeah. You know? And you definitely don't get a refund on time, do you? You know, you've only got time once. So, you know, that time is important to you. There's other things you can be doing with your day. So absolutely, you know, basically make it as as as efficient as possible a day for yourself and do, you know, shorter charging sessions up to say 80 ish percent. And if you're doing an incredibly long journey and your car genuinely needs another rapid charge, be safe in the knowledge that taking that quick pit stop further down the road to get you to your destination has saved you time versus charging all the way to a 100% to then go down the road and then plug in again all the way to a 100% or whatever.

Euan McTurk [00:31:04]:
Genuinely, those little short stops, like Formula 1 pit stops when refuelling, was allowed. You know, they would put in just enough fuel that they needed and no more and then be on their way. You know, that was the fastest way to get to the end of the race. And in this case, it's the fastest way to get to the end of your day and free up time for yourself. That affects the individual. That benefits the individual. That's what the angle that we need to be taking when we're educating people. So, absolutely, it needs to come from the dealers.

Euan McTurk [00:31:30]:
It needs to come from the manufacturers. To an extent, it needs to come from the rapid charging networks too

Euan McTurk [00:31:35]:
Because that benefits the network as much as Yeah. As the the user. And if they point if they again if it's painted as, hey. Do you wanna charge even faster on our kit? You know, do you wanna save yourself time? Well, this is how you do it. You don't need to go to a 100%.

Liz Allan [00:31:48]:
Yeah. I mean, I know that there's these whole people worry about, oh, but if we only tell them that they can get to 80%, they're gonna, you know, moan about the, you know, EVs anyway and that kind of stuff. Well, I but like you're saying, if we're on a long journey, you know, so going down to see take James down to Exeter from Reading is about, I think it's about 165 miles. I'd stop at a 100 because 100's enough or around 120. After all, that's enough for me. You know? And I know Sam Clarke and other people talk about bladder ranges and stuff like that, and that is true. But, actually, I know I was kind of bleating it before, but health and safety, you know? People like I'm sorry. I don't wanna say this man's name, but people like Nigel Farage, who thinks he can actually drive for 500 miles. I'm sorry, mate.

Liz Allan [00:32:40]:
You know, have a look at yourself because you should be stopping at least, you know, after after a couple of hours journey and because you also become dangerous to other people on the road, don't you?

Euan McTurk [00:32:53]:
Yeah. I mean, you can maybe do 500 miles if you've got one of those stadium pal things kinda running down your leg. But it's it ain't doable, especially you're genuine, yeah. You're gonna have to go for, like, astronaut-level long haul here. You know, you need to have might as well put an adult nappy on. You know? Because it yeah. You your as you say, your bladder and your kidneys are gonna get taken out by a 500-mile journey. I recently did a 500-mile journey in a Hyundai Ioniq 5.

Euan McTurk [00:33:26]:
That's an incredibly rapid-charging vehicle. It's insane how quickly that can charge. And I stopped three times. The car did not need to stop three times. It would probably have only needed to stop one and a half times. You know, one charge up to about 80% and then another kind of quick boost before heading home. But I needed to stop because the M 25 is hellish, and it just saps your time. Yeah.

Euan McTurk [00:33:52]:
And I needed a whiz. So, you know, I popped into the service station, grabbed the whiz and the sandwich, came back. It's like, wow. This car charges way faster than my old school Tesla. You know? And then I did a couple of other kind of short stops, popped into Starbucks each time. And by the time I'd finished my, chai latte and my sandwich

Liz Allan [00:34:08]:
Darling. 

Euan McTurk [00:34:09]:
There we are. Yeah.

Liz Allan [00:34:10]:
Yeah. Hello?

Euan McTurk [00:34:11]:
Yes. It's very good. I think I went with oat milk just to be really annoying.

Liz Allan [00:34:15]:
Oh my gosh. Did you drink it with your little pinky finger sticking out?

Euan McTurk [00:34:19]:
Obviously. Yeah.

Euan McTurk [00:34:21]:
Yeah. It is it's impossible to even just taking a glass of water, it's impossible to retract it like it just

Liz Allan [00:34:25]:
Hello? Hello?

Euan McTurk [00:34:28]:
But,

Liz Allan [00:34:29]:
Sorry. If you have if you can't see this, then you probably need to watch the YouTube version as well at that point.

Euan McTurk [00:34:36]:
Yeah. Yes. I do. It was all all part and parcel of going to Oxford, you know. Did I Of course. From Oxford. I don't mention

Liz Allan [00:34:43]:
What what?

Euan McTurk [00:34:44]:
I don't. I don't. Yeah. Anyway, so, yeah, as I say, the charge stops were pretty quick. But most of the occasions that I was stopping, it was more for me than the car. The car had not run down to a particularly low state of charge. But, you know, anyone who's done, the the kind of main Edinburgh to London route basically along the A1M. The fastest route allegedly is the is it the M18, the Doncaster bypass, which is always a car park at any time of the day.

Euan McTurk [00:35:17]:
You know, if you go down to Birmingham, you know, as soon as you go south of Lancaster, it's just a car park as well.

Liz Allan [00:35:23]:
And yeah. And then the M6 is just shocking. Yeah.

Euan McTurk [00:35:26]:
And then the M25. So, like, it's not so much a distance thing. It's the time it takes to drive those distances. So yeah.

Liz Allan [00:35:32]:
The situation.

Euan McTurk [00:35:33]:
Yeah. I mean, that said, you know, I did once to Edinburgh to Coventry, in my tiny little Mark 1 Honda Insight. This was many, many years ago. It's a little petrol hybrid. There's a little 2 seater space capsule of the thing. So that was 330 miles I did without stopping. And when I got out, I couldn't feel my legs. It was like I'm never doing that again.

Euan McTurk [00:35:55]:
I just did it because it was like, I'm just intrigued to see if I can do this. And exactly what you said there, health and safety, that was not healthy. I very quickly realised that was not healthy, and I will now take a break typically between 2 - 3 hours, every sort of 2 to 3 hours. And it's the way it's the way to go. You're far more refreshed, more alert, safer, healthier as a result, and the car tops up whilst you're topping up as well.

Liz Allan [00:36:19]:
And, actually, I think, and I don't think I'm speaking out of turn when I say this, that these days, you know, you're saying people are a little bit selfish with their driving, but also they don't think about their mental and physical health in, you know, in certain cases, they're we're all just in a rush to get everywhere. You know? And I and I've been there. I'm I've, you know, I've I've I've done it as well. But, actually, it's about I think of that Cadbury's caramel advert, you know, where the kind of they sat there eating their Cadbury's caramel, leaning back, and it's kind of there's none of that. All we're just we're just running all the time, aren't we? You know, when, actually, we need to just give it a little bit of time at a charger. People actually and I don't I don't know whether the stats have seen something recently about, you know, people's, mental health and their physical well-being is better when they're in an EV, and I might just be talking out a turn here. I don't think I am. But because of the fact you you do have enforced it's not enforced brakes, but it's about  sensible  brakes.

Euan McTurk [00:37:30]:
Oh, I totally agree with that. That. And, as I say, my recent 500-mile trek just verified that to myself quite, you know, quite thoroughly is the way to go. But actually, probably one of the most enjoyable long-distance journeys I've done was if you check out the 2-part episode, the Sky Road Trip in a short-range EV, on Plug Life Television; that was a 24-kilowatt-hour Nissan LEAF. So, that was my first modern EV. Yeah realistic range somewhere between 60-80 miles per charge.

Liz Allan [00:38:03]:
Bless you.

Euan McTurk [00:38:04]:
This was back in 2017, no. Wait. 2019. Sorry. So, you know, the charging infrastructure was nowhere near as advanced as it is today. But I think we actually ended up stopping about six times between Edinburgh and Sky. Part of it was strategic because of gaps in the network between rapid chargers and so on. But on all but one of those occasions, the car was ready to go before we were.

Euan McTurk [00:38:32]:
And we arrived in our holiday cottage in Sky feeling incredibly refreshed. It was genuinely one of the most enjoyable journeys we've done. And, you know, because we were kind of stopping every so often in really beautiful locations and checking them out for a few minutes before moving on again, it was a genuine, you know, genuinely very pleasant day. And there is an argument to be had about taking an old school shorter range EV on a nice kind of road trip to some more kind of remote scenic locations because you you end up kind of stopping and exploring more of it. But, yeah, we did another video, well, there should have been an episode of Plug Live Television about a road trip to rural Wales. There should have been another one about an electric road trip throughout the Outer Hebrides. The scenery in both was incredible, but the kind of drama aspect from an EV was nonexistent because by this point, we had the old school model S that easily did 200 plus miles in a single charge. So it was too easy.

Euan McTurk [00:39:29]:
It's just that it wasn't worth my time to edit altogether. So from the point of view of of someone who genuinely needs to get to where they're going, In a in an era of 200 plus mile range EVs, genuinely every 2 to 3 hours stop when you need to, probably the car won't need to by that point. Yeah. Just for 25 ish minutes, that's the average dwell time at a motorway service station. Get out, stretch your legs, have a nice cup of whatever, and get on the way again. It's it's far healthier for you. Gen genuinely improves your well-being. And this comes from someone who used to drive a petrol hybrid from Coventry to Edinburgh every second weekend.

Euan McTurk [00:40:08]:
So I knew the M1 and the M6 and all that off the back of my hand, like the back of my hand, I should say. And, yeah, that that took its toll after a while. That was with a stop.

Liz Allan [00:40:20]:
Yeah. You know? God, that would be a killer though. I can imagine. Look at you. Goodness me. Well, I was gonna ask you. Obviously, we've been talking about Plug Life, but you've been, and I'm gonna move away a little bit away from Charge Saint now.

Liz Allan [00:41:05]:
You know the film Everything Everywhere All at Once, where the woman had really long fingers? That reminds me of you.

Euan McTurk [00:41:15]:
Yeah. I do have I do have my fingers in in many pies.

Liz Allan [00:41:19]:
You do. Don't you?

Euan McTurk [00:41:20]:
Yeah. But I like it that way. It mixes up the working week. You know, when I was a full-time lab-based electrochemist, it was enjoyable. But there were interesting projects that I brought to the attention of the powers that be, and they said, well, you know, we're no. We're working on this. This is all we have the bandwidth to be able to do.

Euan McTurk [00:41:37]:
But, you know, being a a consultant, you know, with the freedom to kind of work across various different disciplines and bring knowledge from across those different disciplines, that I've personally accrued over the years, you know, that's that's really rewarding. So, you know, there have been, and there shall be again very shortly some very juicy, technical due diligence studies on various kind of battery related things, whether it's new recycling techniques, raw material extraction, design of battery systems themselves. I've, you know, there's been quite a lot of technical due diligence, which has kind of kept my claws sharp in that regard because it's meant not just looking at whether a product that's seeking investment or seeking selection by whoever does what it says on the tin. Because looking at what everyone else is up to as well and it forces you to take stock of just what's out there. There might be a couple of bits and pieces you'd previously overlooked, but it's actually turned out to be quite an impressive thing that they're doing. So, yeah, technical due diligence is very much part of what I do. There'll be so that's one day I'll be working on that. The next, it'll be strategy.

Euan McTurk [00:42:46]:
There'll be a company that's looking to position its products or services in the UK market, and they're looking to try to differentiate themselves from their competitors. What have their competitors not done? Probably despite me telling their competitors what to do for free because it's so gradually obvious why you haven't done it. But, hey, if they're not gonna listen and this company is gonna take it seriously, then we'll sit down. We'll talk strategy. I can I can potentially open some doors for whoever, you know, again, through the kind of big, Rolodex of contacts that I've amassed over life.

Euan McTurk [00:43:22]:
Sixteen odd years of being in the sector. So that's quite good. And then, of course, there's public outreach as well. So part of the reason I've been a bit too busy to do Plug Life Television recently, which I'd love to be able to do, is because I've been filming with other channels. So although it was, I think it was at least a year ago this finished now, there was the FASTER project, which, in which I was chairing several, EV themed webinars, everything from your beginner's guide to electric right through to, how can we improve charging infrastructure, myth-busting of, you know, technical misconceptions and things like that with expert panels, you know, that were I've brought in again through the contacts. I've got included chairing an in-person event in Fort William to bring this kind of information to a more remote community where someone would normally have to go down to Glasgow or London to find out that sort of information at a conference. So that was really rewarding. But also we, pretended to be on Top Gear for a week.

Euan McTurk [00:44:28]:
So, Ric, it was Ric Boulemier from Generate Media, me, and myself. We did some EV reviews at the Arnold Clark Innovation Centre. So, huge thanks to Jim Blair for letting us and the crew for letting us loose with about 10 of their cars for an intense week's worth of filming. But if you go on to the Faster Project YouTube channel, the older set of EV reviews were done by us. I loved the Honda E. I think you can probably tell this from the video. There was the old Tesla model versus the new Tesla model 3 starring my own machine, and also the EV-powered picnic that we did with an Ioniq 5 and an EV 6 at Whiteley Wind Farm, which is the biggest onshore wind farm in the UK.

Liz Allan [00:45:07]:
Oh, wow.

Euan McTurk [00:45:08]:
So, yeah, that was great fun. And because those cars had vehicles to load, we just brought a kettle and a toaster. I forgot to bring the butter. That was a bit of a.

Liz Allan [00:45:16]:
Oh my god.

Euan McTurk [00:45:17]:
Very, very dry toaster. But, you know, yeah, so there's there's this public outreach side of it as well.

Liz Allan [00:45:21]:
You're involved in Stop Burning Stuff as well, weren't you? 

Euan McTurk [00:45:24]:
Yeah.

Liz Allan [00:45:25]:
And I was trying to think of another word other than firefighting because that doesn't sound quite right. But, basically, it was, no, myth-busting and things like that, weren't you? Other areas. So you've also been involved in lots of public-facing kinds of projects, haven't you?

Euan McTurk [00:45:43]:
True. Yeah. So Stop Burning Stuff, which is the the kind of fast scientific rebuttal service that was put together predominantly by the or, yeah, by the Fully Charged team. So, yeah, I was one of the kind of founding members of that, and I was on stage with the stupendous Lorna McAteer, and, and Quentin and and Diane and Robert.

Euan McTurk [00:46:05]:
It was in Westminster not the bit where the politicians were at the time. The building within the borough of Westminster. But that was still quite cool to launch that. That's now somewhat evolved into EV UK, of which I'm one of the founding members of that as well. But, yeah, I mean, there's just so much disinformation. But when we pool resources like this, it means that even although we are all effectively having our time wasted, by idiots who spout well, sorry. Well, malicious actors who spout disinformation like the oil and gas industry, you know, they fund climate dialers and so on. And then the idiots, well, I say idiots.

Euan McTurk [00:46:43]:
Some people within the oil and gas shills and so on do come across as believable if you don't understand the science yourself and then they get people who have worked in it. But you do get idiots who will spout stuff on social media and regurgitate stuff that's years old and was debunked ages ago. But the fact that the likes of EV UK is able to pull its resources, you know, from right across the sector. In my case, I bring in, you know, the fundamental battery electrochemistry as well as, you know, a lot of information about the real world and industry. But there's a plethora of different people from across, like the energy sector, the automotive retail sector, etcetera. And we can act very quickly to, you know, to basically give an accurate rebuttal to some of these nonsensical claims. But it's important that we do that because your disinformation is actively delaying any effort we've got to make the world a better, safer place.

Liz Allan [00:47:44]:
Mhmm. I still can't believe how long this has been going on and how long it's been allowed to go on. I mean, and I can't remember the exact information that that the, that I was reading the other day, but it was basically about the government, not to do with EVs but introducing a kind of, a unit that was well, sorry. A unit that was, some funding came in for a specific group. This company was looking at why heat pumps weren't being installed in the numbers we expected. Because again, as you've just said, there was there's evidence to say that a lot of, you know, there was an underlying negative PR campaign about heat pumps coming through into the UK that everybody believed in the same way that everybody believes what they hear about EVs. You know? Yeah. And like you say, somebody who's mate down the pubs or her hairdresser said this or, you know, and that's I've had that.

Liz Allan [00:48:52]:
I've had people friends of mine say, oh, my hairdresser says.

Euan McTurk [00:48:57]:
Mhmm. 

Liz Allan [00:48:57]:
You know, and it's, oh my good god. Just this information is more than viral. Can you have an information pandemic? Because it feels like it is. Do you know what I mean?

Euan McTurk [00:49:12]:
Mhmm. Yeah. Honestly, the people who are so dead against heat pumps, as you were saying, like, the house I'm sitting in just now has an air source heat pump. It's perfectly warm. The house was built in the eighties and has decidedly average insulation that was not upgraded with the heat pumps

Euan McTurk [00:49:34]:
So, I mean, even, you know, an even more extreme case, a 1950s house. You know? Okay. There might be issues with some of the proper old school like sandstone buildings and so on. You need to to get, a proper kind of surveyor to have a look at that and advise on on potential upgrades to insulation, etcetera.

Euan McTurk [00:49:51]:
But you can get a heat pump to work in just about every property. And to be honest, the majority of properties in the UK, will be suitable for a heat pump. You're not gonna be shivering to death. And I can tell you now, the water is always hot, and the rooms are always warm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'll tell you what's particularly frustrating.

Euan McTurk [00:50:11]:
Dale Vince, who is a green hero, keeps bashing heat pumps because he has this grand ambition to turn the the grass that grows at the side of motorways into biogas, which can then be used to power gas boilers. So he keeps having a go. He keeps calling heat pumps, I think, warm pumps or kind of like tepid pumps or something like this because he's like, oh, no. You're you're gonna be a bit on the cold side. Oh, it's really expensive blah blah blah. It's really not. It's not. 

Euan McTurk [00:50:38]:
And I'll tell you something else, Dale. There is basic mathematics here. We need your green gas, but not to burn in boilers. So let's say that you have some magical gas-fired combi boiler that is 100% efficient. So all of the gas that goes into it gets turned into heat that comes out the radiators or, you know, out the hot water tap. Now let's take that same gas and burn it in our combined cycle gas turbine. So that's, you know, your typical gas-fired power plant, which will have an efficiency of about, you know, the mid-fifties to 60 ish per cent. Now, let's transmit that electricity to someone's house, and let's assume an absolute worst-case scenario here.

Euan McTurk [00:51:18]:
So you've you've had some transmission losses and things. So out of that gas that's gone in, you've only got 50% of that being turned into usable electricity that's delivered to the heat pump. A heat pump has a coefficient of performance of 3. What that means is that for every unit of electricity that goes into powering that pump, it scavenges 3 units of heat from the air. So you take your 50% efficiency, multiply that by 3, and you've got a 150% heat out of a 100% gas going in versus a 100% gas going into a gas boiler and a 100% of that being turned into heat. So using that same gas and then putting it into a combined cycle gas turbine power plant, sending it down some power lines and into a heat pump gives you at least 50% more heat for a home, which means you need less gas burned, which means that you bring down the cost of energy because gas pretty much sets the wholesale price of energy these days.

Liz Allan [00:52:14]:
Yeah. It does.

Euan McTurk [00:52:15]:
So yeah. Yeah. All for the green gas from grass, but gas boilers can suck my pump.

Liz Allan [00:52:26]:
Do you know what? I think that's a, really, really, and he's drinking his drink with his pink little pinky finger sticking out. Do you know on that on that point, I think I think I'm gonna say, I don't think we've got anything else to say on that because that is a perfect it's we have peaked. Absolutely. And we're actually recording this very late at night, aren't we? So my goodness, Euan. This has been an absolute oh my, but I can't even have words for it. It's been hilarious and inspirational as well. And you always are, you know, you always are that kind of person. So and I haven't said this, I meant to right at the beginning.

Liz Allan [00:53:13]:
If it hadn't been for me and my husband and having dinner with Euan when we did, which was kind of around July, was it now, 2023, we would not have got an EV as quickly as we did because it was after EV Live at Blenheim, wasn't it?

Euan McTurk [00:53:32]:
So it was. Yeah.

Liz Allan [00:53:33]:
Yeah. When I rescued you from

Euan McTurk [00:53:36]:
Thank you

Liz Allan [00:53:36]:
For when you had a very long walk because you couldn't get out the other end, and there's a long walkway. Yeah.

Euan McTurk [00:53:43]:
To the groundskeepers of Blenheim Palace, I'm coming for you. Because twice, I was walking up to the main entrance, which is where the bus stop is. Yeah. You know, although I have my EVs and so on, multiple EVs, you know, I'll let the train take the strain if I'm going longer since it means I can get work done. I'm not just staring at the back of another car for six hours.

Liz Allan [00:54:05]:
You couldn't get out. Could you?

Euan McTurk [00:54:06]:
Couldn't get out because they literally shut the gates as I was walking up to it. There was a buzzer thing. I kept pressing it. You could just tell there was someone in the security office going. Not messing you out. Right? Yeah. So then the next day, I was saying to everyone on my way out, it's like, oh, no. I had better get a move on because, you know, they shut the gate on me the last time I was doing that.

Euan McTurk [00:54:26]:
And then there'd be someone else who's like, oh my god. It's that guy from Plug Life . I was like, yes. Yes. You got signed autograph. Okay. There we go. And this kept happening.

Euan McTurk [00:54:33]:
And then they went and shut the gate on me twice in a row, and I was so dejected. And, Liz, you did come to the rescue because the the alternative way that they were sending the cars, they did not put any thought. They they put zero thought to active travel because the cars basically went around the old Nurburgring in Germany, which is, like, however many miles long, 8 miles long or something. It's more than that probably. Yes. I'll I'll need to look. It's a stupid no. It's an 8 minute circuit in a high performance car.

Euan McTurk [00:55:02]:
So it's it's, like, stupid number of miles long. They've you know, walking that would have been hell. Oh, no. Especially because literally the other side of these giant golden gates was the bus stop for the bus.

Liz Allan [00:55:12]:
And that must have been so taunting. Yeah. There were people at the bus stop, like, going. Pretty much. Yeah. 

Liz Allan [00:55:21]:
I just want to give you clarity on this one. So I basically just thought, do you know what? I wonder if maybe Euan's going the same direction as me. I'll just give him a quick call, and he's going, I can't get out. Where are you? And, obviously, it's a what, so it was a one-way kind of going where you go out of Bleinham. It was all one way. So I had to park where I was, and you came and found me. It still took you about 15 minutes to walk to me, didn't it? And I'm going, you're nearly there. But, actually, so after that, we went out for dinner with you, me and my husband, and I wanna thank you.

Liz Allan [00:55:55]:
If it wasn't for you, we, like I said, wouldn't have bought the EV as quickly as we did. So that's my final note, just to say thank you to you. You're an absolute absolute star. If you ever get a chance to meet Euan and you've not already done that, please do because he's amazing. I'm not just saying that.

Euan McTurk [00:56:15]:
I am very excited. Well, no. Thank you. I'm really glad to have genuinely helped on that one, and I'm so glad that you're enjoying your EV as well because, yeah, we had a chat about the pros and cons of different makes and models, and it looks as if you've found an ideal one for you. I am chuffed to bits that it's working out so well.

Liz Allan [00:56:30]:
Oh, and yeah. Absolutely. Honestly, it's just been yeah. It has been, like I say, 2 years since I spoke to you, over 2 years, and what a journey that's been. My god. But, look, on that note, I'm gonna say thank you. I'm gonna say to everybody watching and listening, thank you to you. I always say this: if you can elevate this this podcast, if you can share it, listen to what he's just said.

Liz Allan [00:56:55]:
We need people to find out about Charge Saint. You know? We need people to know that EV drivers can download it. You know, it's a free app. It's not as if you're gonna have to pay for it. So just download it. Use it. Utilise it. If you find if you're a at a charger, you know, if you're at hub or wherever and somebody's parked there, you know, and they shouldn't be whether they're a combustion engine, they're parked over, you know, they're just not plugged in or whatever, use it.

Liz Allan [00:57:27]:
But please, you know, engage with this podcast. I've you know, I'm not just saying that. It's actually good to help kind of get the word out there. We've got to counter all this negativity. There's so much crap out there, isn't there? We've as we've just been saying. So like, subscribe, share the post, I'd just like to say thank you, know, whatever. Just send it to people you don't know. I don't mean it like that.

Liz Allan [00:57:52]:
But thank you. Thank you again. Euan, thank you. And thank you to everybody listening and watching. And I'm gonna see you next time. Goodbye. Bye.