Episode 139: Liz Allan and Richard Hackforth-Jones - Sainsbury’s Smart Charge Vision for Net Zero and Customer Excellence

Episode 139: Liz Allan and Richard Hackforth-Jones - Sainsbury’s Smart Charge Vision for Net Zero and Customer Excellence.
Liz Allan speaks to Richard Hackforth-Jones, Product and Operations Director at Sainsbury’s Smart Charge, to explore how one of the UK’s biggest retail giants is revolutionising the EV charging landscape. Richard shares Smart Charge's incredible growth journey, from launching its first site in July 2023 to rapidly scaling to over 75 sites and 615 ultra-rapid charging bays in less than a year. More than just numbers, Richard dives into Sainsbury’s customer-first approach, using its retail expertise, existing property assets, and Nectar loyalty scheme to make EV charging both accessible and rewarding for drivers. He explains how their ability to use existing grid connections and relentless focus on process improvement make Smart Charge a stand-out player in the industry. 

Richard Hackforth-Jones Bio:
Richard Hackforth-Jones is the Product and Operations Director at Sainsbury’s Smart Charge, leading the charge (quite literally) on scaling one of the UK’s fastest-growing EV charging networks. With a background spanning tech consultancy, product management, and e-mobility strategy, Richard brings a unique blend of technical know-how and strategic insight to the EV space. Passionate about simplifying the EV driver experience, Richard is driving Smart Charge’s mission to deliver ultra-rapid, accessible, and customer-friendly charging at Sainsbury’s nationwide, while supporting the retailer’s broader net-zero goals. 

Quote of the Episode:
"We have a duty, as an industry, to make it easy to onboard those customers into this new behaviour of public charging. If we don’t, we risk leaving people behind.”  Richard Hackforth-Jones, Sainsbury’s Smart Charge 

Richard Hackforth-Jones Links:
Website: https://smartcharge.co.uk
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-drake-hackforth-jones

Transcript

Liz Allan [00:00:03]:
So on today's episode I have got a lovely guy. I'm gonna say this now Richard. It's Richard Hackforth Jones and he's the product and operations director at Sainsbury's SmartCharge. Thank you ever so much for joining me. It's lovely to see you.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:00:20]:
Yeah. Thanks for having me, Liz. It's great to be on.

Liz Allan [00:00:23]:
So we I'm just gonna start off by saying we met, and I can't remember what it was now, but I know it was at Move 2024, wasn't it? But we've been talking since about May, and this is the first time we've actually properly had a chance to kind of set the podcast up. But you've just been promoted, which is fantastic. So, congratulations on that one as well.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:00:48]:
Cheers. Thank you, Liz. Yeah. Yeah. I've been a fan of the podcast for a while. I'm always a regular listener because you always learn new things, get great guests, and I'll we were chatting a little bit before. Sorry. I'm breaking the fourfold a bit, but, yeah, I do really enjoy your podcast.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:01:05]:
It's a really nice listen. So, yeah, great to be on. I think it was just that we were deciding which one of the leadership team would be best suited, and I think I've been the lucky one to get to talk to you today.

Liz Allan [00:01:18]:
Oh, bless you. You've been in the sector for a little while, haven't you, before you came to Smart Charge? But let's just go back and talk a bit about what you did prior to working for Sainsbury SmartCharge and and and kind of give us a little bit of your background, if you will. Yeah.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:01:38]:
So I'm, I guess, now an EV charging, e-mobility kind of specialist in the space. But my career, originally, I actually trained as a teacher on, like, a thing called Teach First, taught maths and statistics, which is very useful for building up my confidence, learn a lot about myself. And then I moved actually into digital, product management, so running mobile apps, really, for Accenture, a big, big digital agency, a big, big company. And I first got into EV charging, well, first got into, like, the world of mobility, slash, you know, cars, about eleven or twelve years ago. I worked for a big fuel retailer and then got into EV charging after working on their connected car strategy. So it feels very quaint now. But there was, like, SIM cards are going into cars. What does this mean for fueling? And, you know, their mobile apps are coming out. 

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:02:39]:
So I worked a lot on that and then learned a bit more about EVS. There's a the Nissan Leaf had just come out, Tesla, Model s as well, and and there was, you know, the first murmurings of of, you know, electrification in industry. I then, like, did other product management roles, but then came back to that same roof fuels retailer and worked on after they acquired an EV charging company and was told to kind of make it better, make the customer experience better. The app's bad. You got you know, you guys know how to build apps, so make it better. But that was 2017. And, as you know, like, EV Charging is a lot more than just an app. It's about, you know 

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:03:24]:
How do you communicate to customers, what where do you put put the things, what power you put them in, what hardware you use, what how do you tell customers how to interact, let alone back then there was, you know, CHAdeMO 43 kilowatt AC, you know, the CCS, like, all these different types of plugs, etcetera. So that's where I got interested in EV charging and realised, actually, it's a nascent industry. It was based on open source, so open standards with, like, the open charge point protocol and the open charge point interface, and thought, oh, this is gonna probably grow. Maybe I should focus my career on it, and that's what I did. So then I then consulted a lot on the technology side, with Accenture and then moved into kind of the more strategy bit of consulting for another consultancy before I worked at then I worked at JLR, working as the head of the charging head of charging for the new Jaguar program. I don't know if you've seen it, but have you heard about that car? 

Liz Allan [00:04:26]:
Yeah. Might have.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:04:26]:
What is it? Yeah. Yeah. I can't say I made it pink, but yeah. That, that was fun. And, before Sainsbury's, we were looking to hire a director of products, so to look after the technology for what was then Sainsbury's EV charging before we got rebranded as SmartCharge. So, yeah, that's a bit of a long answer of how I how I got here, but I'd say my background started in tech and then doubled down in kind of EV, both technology and then business strategy. And now I am working for an amazing 50-plus-year-old company that has entered into this market.

Liz Allan [00:05:09]:
And I was gonna say, I mean, Sainsbury's as a brand is just so, so customer-focused, isn't it? What was it about Sainsbury's? Because they didn't start the charging they they kind of set up SmartCharge not that long ago, wasn't it? Was it about eighteen months ago? What was the reason for setting up SmartCharge itself then?

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:05:34]:
So I'd say, my boss, Patrick Dunn, I sit in his broader property and procurement team. And, actually, Sainsbury's property team have been looking at EV charging for a really long time. Actually, I kind of talked with them when I was consulting, yeah, probably five or six years ago, pre-definitely pre-pandemic

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:05:55]:
About the opportunities there. So they've been thinking about this for a really long time. It was more of a question of when to go for it. And where Patrick and his team came to before I joined is that they realised there was an opportunity to build a trusted EV charging brand in the UK, leveraging some of the skills and capabilities that Sainsbury's has. So we, you know, we already process billions of pounds worth of transactions from a payments perspective. We, you know, we have a market-leading loyalty program in Nectar. We, you know, we have digital teams that build some of the smart shop app. So we've got those capabilities there, and we also have land.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:06:40]:
So it was one of those things that kind of came together. The other thing I'd probably say about why Sainsbury's got into EV charging is that, you know, we have a fuel station business. We have a we've got PFS, a petrol filling station business, and, you know, public EV charging is a good hedge against, you know, a risk to a a a business, a vertical within the Sainsbury's group. And the other reason is that there is a plan for a better strategy that Sainsbury's has. They've always been kind of leading in the space of doing good for the environment. You know, we have a goal of being net zero across all our operations by 2035. And, you know, we procure a lot of energy too. So there's a lot of capabilities within that, you know, property and procurement group that seems to have already been established.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:07:31]:
And, actually, it was you know, then just the bits of hardware selection, getting good connections, and, you know, there's still a fair amount of work to be done, but some of the more trickier seeming side of EV charging perhaps on payments stuff, They they had the, you know, the individuals, the capabilities, the teams to to get going with that themselves.

Liz Allan [00:07:53]:
And I was gonna say, I mean, you've grown so quickly in such a short period of time, haven't you? How many charges, how many installs are there now, across how many sites? Do you know?

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:08:08]:
So we're at at the point of recording, but I don't know when I can't remember, Liz, when this is going out. So at the point of recording, it's 75 sites, but we definitely are talking in mid-March, with over, I think, about 615 or so bays, ultra rapid bays. So, we could charge 615 vehicles simultaneously if we wanted to. We'll have another couple by the end of the month, as well, which is really, really exciting. But we have 1,600 sites. I mean, that's supermarkets and convenience. I think it's about 600, supermarkets and, you know, longer term, you know, really longer term. Then all of those are hubs with hub potential.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:08:53]:
Right? They're destinations with amenities. So we're only really just getting started, but yeah, we've gone from our first proper site, I think, which was Harrogate in July 2023, to now we're marching 75.

Liz Allan [00:09:10]:
I mean, that's that's amazing to cut you know, but like you like you say, I suppose you're in a very different situation to a lot of charge point operators because, like you said about the fact you've got you've got the sites, you've got you've, you know, you so you've got the land, you've got the connections. I'm assuming because you're a big PLC, you can kind of get, you know, the energy that you need for that site is easier to bring in than it would be for somebody who'd have to actually start from scratch. Is that what helped?

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:09:48]:
Yeah. That, like, we're already in the pros, you know, when we build a store, like, we're already securing high voltage grid connections because, you know, bridges take up a lot of energy. And one of the initiatives that has been going on over the last decade or so within Sainsbury's has been cost efficiency in terms of energy reduction, energy use, and reuse. So, you know, replacing fridges, do looking at how we can, you know, maybe improve the doors so that they don't open as much and that kind of thing that reduces our energy usage. But it then means that, actually, you've maybe got a good connection that is under capacity for the store. So sometimes we've been able to use that headroom we have to actually move really quickly and put in EV charging and use that excess, high power to power EV chargers instead. So, it it it it's kind of makes sense when you think about it sitting in that broader property space as you've got all the folks already looking at the price of energy, already buying a lot of energy, and trying to make savings in some places. But with that, also with that customer focus, you know, like, we've got this asset now, this good connection.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:11:02]:
Maybe we can use it in different ways.

Liz Allan [00:11:04]:
Especially if it's, like you say, underutilized, and you can you can you're capitalizing on the fact that you've got, you know, you've got the connection there where a lot of organizations just haven't haven't got that, have they, really? You are kind of that which is why you must be able to do it so rapidly.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:11:24]:
Yeah. In some places, yeah, that's the case. We've not all our stores are like that. Yeah. We definitely got our own good connections as well, specifically for EV, but, yeah, in certain regards, we've been able to move quickly that way. The other main reason is we've got a killer team on in terms of, like, execution, they're known as the execution team, which sounds a little bit like you know? But they really deliver quickly. They're a smashing team and, you know, same same folks who used to deliver, you know, deliver stores. You know, it's ultimately another, like, big project.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:12:03]:
It's got its own intricacies, securing power, etc., dealing potentially sometimes with landlords. But it's the same general principles as what we do when we're securing convenience stores, building a new supermarket, etcetera. But, yeah, they're they're they're they're a killer team, I'd say, the execution team. 

Liz Allan [00:12:23]:
I think you've got a name. The execution team. I hope they don't all go around with black hoods on.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:12:29]:
They don't. They're very friendly. They're very friendly. They're their kids.

Liz Allan [00:12:33]:
Oh, fantastic. So so I know this might sound a silly question, but your your USP as a as a brand has has provided you so you've we've got all you talk about you've got all these wonderful abilities you know because you've got the land and everything but your USP as a brand itself like I said earlier is so customer focused. Would you say that's put you in a very different place compared to some of the other charge point operators that are coming in, you know, I've come into the market, and I've been there for a while. How does it kind of land with you when you kinda look at sort of like, right. Okay. Well, this is us and that's them, and we're just a bit different.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:13:26]:
I think, yeah, I think I'd say our our USPs, but we we really focus on, yeah, our our customers. We we listen and learn from them.

Speaker C [00:13:35]:
I think

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:13:36]:
We try to keep things really quite simple, but, like, we've focused on, you know, one of our focuses, like, accessibility and safety. You know, our charges should be for everyone. We got big roomy bays and, you know, CCTV is covering them all. And, you know, those big bays are benefiting everybody, not just those with mobility requirements. Right? Like, you, I used to work for JLR, like, tried to park a Range Rover. There's an electric one coming out. Like, that's pretty tricky, and so having that extra space is pretty useful. My my my dad has an electric camper van, and he definitely appreciates the wide bays as well.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:14:18]:
Yeah. So, you know, we focus on that. I think our yep. I've mentioned the execution team, but our focus is on the quality of our delivery with our bay markings and, you know, trying to make it as safe and accessible for everybody. Another thing is that we, you know, we have a lot, on average, about eight per site, so we don't wanna keep customers waiting, and so they'll they'll be able to plug in quickly. And you know, we've learned from the initial sites that that matters to our customers. And then the other thing is just we have a load of amenities. Right? We're one of the second biggest supermarkets in the UK.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:15:00]:
Often, we have partnerships with coffee shops as well, with Starbucks or Costa on-site. And, you know, you can also pick brilliant food. We we wanna be the first choice for food at Sainsbury's. And combined finally with that, we have the market-leading loyalty system ecosystem with Nectar, which we've only really just started integrating with. You know, you can get your Nectar points whilst charging with us, and there'll there'll be much more to benefit SmartCharge customers in the future. So I'd say those are kind of our USP, but, really, as you mentioned, we talk to our customers. We wanna know what they want, and we wanna try and keep it simple. A lot of the feedback we've got has been from people using us for the first time they've charged, and the best feedback we get is, you know, it works, and it was straightforward.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:15:56]:
Like, brilliant. That's what we're going for. I think maybe others would potentially go for a different market. Maybe, maybe being honest, maybe targeting someone like me who's been around the industry for seven or eight years and knows all the acronyms and maybe can list out, like, you know, acronyms with numbers on the end and stuff like that. But most people, normal people, like, they just wanna charge. They just wanna know it works, and they don't wanna have to wait. So they want good value. And that's where we're really focusing.

Liz Allan [00:16:30]:
And, actually, I always talk about this. We do make, you know, we do make things complicated. If you're kinda going from people kinda putting wet fuel in a car, and like you said, you know, you already have fuel in you know, petrol stations, fuel stations. But going to something that's so different, that's got so many different names to it and, you know, the ultra rapid and, like you said, you know, Chathamo and CCS and, you know and actually, people just want to they just want it to be simple, don't they? I want it to be simple. I don't, you know, I don't want it to be complicated, but we have to simplify things for the general public. Because if we don't do that, then we won't bring them on board with us, will we?

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:17:16]:
Yeah. And I think its retail is continuing to innovate, but it has also, you know, Saint Petersburg has been traded, like, something like 1869 or something like that. And, you know, it is so, but people are used to the idea of going in a shop, but people aren't used to the idea of plugging in their car. And so, actually, we have a duty, really. And I say that the Royal Way is an industry to make it easy to onboard those customers into that new behaviour of public charge and making it easy for them because they're, you know, they're kind of setting the standard for that behavioural experience going forward. That I'm sure that there's lots of innovation to come, but our perspective at first is, like, let's keep it simple. Let's make it accessible for everybody to get their new company car EV that they selected. It's nice and flashy, but I'm not sure whether I've done a gonna be able to do the long journey for the first time.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:18:20]:
I'll'll I'll check in the same reasons. If I need to, there is actually someone back there who can help me. You know, we have colleagues in the store as well who will help them

Liz Allan [00:18:31]:
out. And that's nice. And that and that's a that's a that's a nice thing to know, isn't it? Rather, you know, there are some charging sites where a lot of charging sites actually, where there's nobody there, you know, where you're kind of there, might be some facilities or whatever. I've been to one where, you know, after a certain time, the shop that's on-site shuts and, you know, and there's no nobody else to kind of talk to. So you have to rely on making sure that it works, the charges work, and actually just thinking about your sites. I think it's nice to actually be able to plug in and do something. You know, be and and and just integrating it into your shopping habits or whatever, because that makes it so much easier. And yeah, people, it takes less time to put wet fuel in a car, but actually, you have to stand there, and you have to hold the nozzle, and it could, and then you've got to stand in the queue or whatever you've got to do, you know.

Liz Allan [00:19:36]:
So there's still time in there. So but actually just being able to use it, tap it, plug in, go and do your shopping. Happy as Larry, me, I tell you.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:19:48]:
Yeah. And and but a lot of the time we talk to customers, they they wanna grab something to eat, probably a coffee, and use the loo. Like, you can do that whilst you're charging. And by the time you've kind of done those things, you've probably put a decent amount of of kilowatt hours into your into your battery. You're talking fifteen minutes or so. So, yeah, it's it's something we we, yeah, we appreciate doing.

Liz Allan [00:20:13]:
And so I was gonna say you mentioned the card schemes, whose brainchild was it?

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:21:12]:
So, we actually heard that from our customers. When we launched the brands, a lot of the social commentary was like, When can I get Nectar points? Which means you can when you get your petrol and any purchase across Sainsbury's and Argos as well. You can collect Nectar points. So we heard that loud and clear and, you know, leading the products and the technology side of things, we're like, alright. What can we do to, you know, enter into that ecosystem with Neta and make it accessible to customers to begin with? So we were able to deliver that really quite quickly. We've been live with Nectar since, I think, July now, July 24, and you can collect Nectar points with every charge you do with SmartCharge. And that's whether you're paying with debit, credit card, Apple Pay, or, you know, even a roaming card as well. You can claim your Netto point.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:22:10]:
So the way that works is that you can use Kempower charging hardware. You can scan the QR code once you start your charge, and then you'll enter into the smart charge kind of experience once you scan the QR code. It'll ask you to enter your Nexter number, so you can find that either on your physical card or within the Nexter app. Just copy and paste it into the last few digits. Tick a box that says remember this phone, and then, you'll add your Nexter points to your session. Then the next time you charge with us, you scan the QR code, and it will automatically add your points to the session. And, you know, once your session ends, you get your points, which is nice. And there you within that experience as well, you can monitor your charge, see how long the charge is gonna take, and also get your receipt through through that experience as well, get it emailed to you, which I I know that customers a lot of customers, especially kind of business customers want.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:23:11]:
So, yeah, that's the portal. I would say that we're only just starting on that. We want to work on ways to make that even easier for customers as well. So that's one of the priorities for this coming year.

Liz Allan [00:23:24]:
Oh, that's fantastic. And I just have to say this when you said about points because you know what points make? Points make prizes for those of you who remember that from the TV. But anyway, maybe you're too young, Richard. Sorry.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:23:39]:
I was gonna jump in there, but I was like, yeah. I wasn't sure. But, yeah, it definitely makes prizes. And I would say that points make. Right.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:23:48]:
Yeah. I would say that, you know, I do a lot of charging across our network. And, got, like, £250 worth of points there. And, maybe, maybe I'm showing my age now, and I'm looking at, like, the new Nintendo that's coming in a few months. So I think I'll get enough points for all the work we've done, five times points off on at the moment. And I think with all the charges I do at this different site opening and visiting, I'll get enough points to probably afford a new Nintendo Switch two or whatever they're gonna call it in May or June. Oh my goodness. So yeah. If they do all add up and you can use them for all kinds of different things, we have connectors and integration with, like, BA, so you use it for your holidays.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:24:35]:
You use it in August. You buy a new telly. Like, as I said, I've mentioned, I'll probably get a new Nintendo on it. I also have a thing, like, when I go to a new store where we got a smart charge, I always have a look at, like, the toy cars. My we've got a three-year-old. He loves toy cars, and you can normally find, like, a random EV as part of the Hot Wheels set. And I've used my Nectar points to redeem that for a couple of quid and come back and be like, hey. Oh, yeah.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:25:02]:
Here's a Lucid Air. Like, and they were like, it's a car. Brilliant.

Liz Allan [00:25:08]:
Oh, there you go. And, actually, do you know what? You're just saying that, you know, in the same way as you're providing Nectar as a shopping experience in store, having that ability to build those points up and because we do talk about the cost of public charging currently anyway. But any way of offsetting the cost of public charging, getting something back is always a Brucey bonus in my, you know, in my kind of book.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:25:34]:
Yeah. And if you talk to the Nectar team, they would say, actually, a lot of people, what they do with their points is they gather them all up over the year. And come Christmas, that's when they go big, and they go use it on the big Christmas shop, you know, use it for buying presents. So, you know, you could be doing that, getting your points, and we're pretty generous with our points. You know, five and a half points per pound that it spends at SmartCharge at the moment. So it's a good little earner.

Liz Allan [00:26:04]:
No. That's a really good idea. I was gonna say, so besides all of these wonderful things, what excites you about being in the new role, you know, and kind of doing, you know, the what you've got coming on through the next twelve, eighteen months? What excites you about it all?

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:26:23]:
Yeah. So it's taking on operational cape, like, responsibility and accountability as well as the technology side, it's great to kind of bring the two together. I mentioned, like, always looking for ways to improve our customer experience. So, yep, making that Nectar experience even easier and, you know, for our customers, I'd say, is one thing. Making it more of a valuable proposition for our customers. So, you know, looking at how we can reward our loyal customers, too. Yeah. We've got some exciting things in the pipeline on that, but yeah, we'll we'll work towards that.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:27:00]:
And then maybe less customer-facing, but extremely important because, as a customer, you'll experience it if we get it wrong, is using technology to improve our processes, and not just technology and improving our processes generally, from an operational standpoint. We have that 99% uptime, like, requirement from the UK, charge point regs. But for us, you know, we aim for, you know, nought per cent downtime. That's what we have to say; what we report on is a percentage of downtime rather than, you know, 99.8% uptime. It's like, actually, we're not at 2% downtime. You know? So it's, you know, what we can do to make that even better, leveraging the fact that we've got a lot of colleagues. We have a really strong UK-based contact centre as well, and we are making those processes even more robust and streamlined. So, ultimately, customers always have a bay available.

Liz Allan [00:28:03]:
I'm not going to argue with process improvement because that's my life's work, you know. And, actually, to recognise that doing that is important. I would not expect you not to be doing this anyway, you know, but I know there are some CPOs who maybe don't see process improvement as an important factor as you do. I don't know what your thoughts are on that one.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:28:32]:
I probably can't comment on our competitors. Still, it's something that we know ultimately will allow people to do their jobs better, work more efficiently, and deliver a better customer experience. It's maybe not as exciting and, yeah, as potentially doing some other things, but it actually can make our colleagues work better, more fulfilling, you know, and also delight our customers more with some better processes in place behind the scenes.

Liz Allan [00:29:06]:
But actually, you know, there are a couple of things that you're just saying there about your colleagues. It's in its empowerment. So you get that level of empowerment once you get colleagues involved in making improvements. It helps them, you're more likely to retain staff because of the fact that you're getting them involved in things like that. And, actually, long term, we're talking cost savings because if you improve a process that was a bit rubbish in the first place and sometimes it can just be the fact that you've got lack of communication between people so so it's just a bit like pinball and things go backwards and forwards. And actually, if you can make that, if you can smooth that out, that's saving time. And it means somebody can kind of, you know, do something else that they that they, you know, were trying to do, but it's taking three times as long. So, so it might not be as sexy, but long term, you are looking at you're looking theoretically at cost savings because it's taking people less time to do what they were trying to do.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:30:09]:
For sure. And, you know, we as a retail like, the grocery retail business in the UK is a tough business. Right? So culturally, you know, cost savings and looking at efficiencies is just ingrained within Sainsbury's. You know, it's a 33% margin business. So, yeah, but you're spot on with that. It's like, you know, that's something that we're always looking at because process improvement empowers people. It makes the job better, delivers a better experience, and saves money. So it's all around all around the wind.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:30:40]:
But as you say, maybe it doesn't get as much chat within, you know, the EV industry circle because it's not not as techy and shiny.

Liz Allan [00:30:51]:
And, yeah, I suppose maybe maybe it's that or perhaps it's the fact that people kind of and, you know, I sound like I'm being general, I'm generalising and he and I'm not meaning to because there are some good CPOs out there. But but actually, what I've never heard anybody talk about process improvement before on this podcast, actually as a as a positive thing. And I've been banging this drum for such a long time, but you know, because I know the positive benefits of it. You know? Actually, you can't always stay as you are because if you always stay as you are, then somebody's gonna do it better. You know? So you've gotta always keep trying to just chip away and make those little improvements.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:31:37]:
Yep. Absolutely. Absolutely. That'd be good. Because if we don't do it, then, you know, one of our competitors or someone new will enter the market and and do it even better, and then we'll we'll probably try and try and follow. So, yeah, for sure.

Liz Allan [00:31:52]:
So, you are the stuff, the things that you're doing regarding talking to the customers at Sainsbury's, and do you know what? I'm not just saying talking. Listening to them. What do you think the benefits have been, you know, for you to move as you have done? What has that listening ear provided you with, do you reckon?

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:32:18]:
So you kinda learn what matters to people. And so, yeah, I think, you know, what I'd say to all those listening is, well, you know, try us out, give us feedback. We we read the we read the comments, we read the reviews. You'll see that we respond to them, and we, you know, if the idea is a good one, we'll we'll act on it. I mean, one of the examples that we've had recently was that we used to have it was about pre-auth amounts, for example. So we've been focusing on that from, like, both a process, kind of financial risk, commercial, and a technology standpoint about how we can bring that pre-auth volume down. So what we've actually done whilst maintaining, you know, the ability to collect revenue and not also stopping people's charges when they wanna continue charging. So what we've done is we focused and introduced something called incremental loss.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:33:18]:
So now our pre-auth value is £40. It was higher before. So that's broadly in line with with the rest of the rest of our peers in the market. And we put in some technology. That means once you get to close to £40, we actually then do an increment of another £20, so that you're not withholding more funds than you would spend. And so and then if you continue to charge, maybe you're driving a we had once had a Rolls Royce. I saw a Rolls-Royce in Waterloo once, and that's got, like, a 10-kilowatt-hour battery. So they, you know, they we then do another increment and another increment and another increment.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:33:57]:
So we're only kind of, reserving, and checking that you have the money that you would be charging for, which is good. So that was something that we've been hearing from our customers loud and clear. You know, the value was too high, but we want to know, what can we do to bring it down? You know, before we put in the technology, that would have meant actually stopping the charge, at that lower value. But we, you know, we worked with our, you know, our payments team, did a fantastic job working with our payment service providers and with Kempower as well to introduce these increments and incremental loss. So I think that's just one thing that we do, but we regularly listen to it. I had another one. Someone just messaged me on LinkedIn and actually said, you know, it would really help for my own kind of personal finances. If you change the name of what the transactions are registered in, like the bank statements, we're like, oh, wait.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:34:52]:
I've never thought about that. I haven't been thinking about the bank statements. But because we initially started by putting Sainsbury's, then the store number, and then SmartCharge

Liz Allan [00:35:03]:
Yeah.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:35:03]:
It was kind of in her banking app, it was just saying Sainsbury's, and it was getting it because it doesn't show the full details. So we just listened to the customer, but actually, we can change that now. Start with SmartCharge and then Sainsbury's, and now customers are able to see whether, you know, the payments are the outgoings are Sainsbury's or, you know, groceries or Mhmm. More of it smarter. So we're constantly listening to customers, and you might see us. I know our customer experience team are actually out at multiple sites today just talking to customers to understand a bit more about their motivations and, you know, why they turn left for us and not elsewhere. And you learn more things that way.

Liz Allan [00:35:51]:
I think that's really, you know, some of the stuff that you're just saying there about the incremental pre-auths. And, actually, I was at a Paythru event where we were talking about the pay-through point in the chat. You know, they put the charts together, and pre-authorisations were a big part of that. And we were talking about this before we started recording, weren't we? And, actually, if you go to a fuel station and you're paying at a pump, it'll put a £99 pre-auth on there, but it's just a holding pre-auth. Because because of the agreements with the banking sector which goes, alright, you put £85 in so we'll put £15 straight back but then there's there's kind of no, there's, you know, I understand I understand the reason for pre auths because I know that there's also there's going to be drivers who try and blim in get charged it get charged when they've got no money in their account. I'm sorry but there are, you know, somebody might be shaking the red at me, but, but actually, you know, you need to cover yourselves as an organisation, but there is that, you know, kind of pre auths comes are a bit of a misnomer, aren't they? But that's to do with banking and it not being recognised as critical infrastructure. So the agreements aren't quite in place, yet? Am I right?

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:37:11]:
Yeah. It I'd say if that's the one thing that I'd I'd kind of wanna change about about, like, EV charging in The UK, it probably would be would be the the pre off and pre off returns happening sooner and also just kind of clearing the record about what pre off is. So pre-auth is just checking that you've got money and then reserving it. It's not leaving your account. It's just it's there, but it's just saying, you know, in case, you know, you that we were checking that there is, you know, £40 for us at the moment. £40 pounds in your account. You have £40, so you're gonna be able to pay your bill. It's nothing different to what happens at a hotel as well.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:37:50]:
Like, that's what happens. And then once the transaction ends, we instantly send over how much the transaction is. We say, release the £40 and debit the £28 or whatever it was from the accounts, and we know that that will go through because you've got £40. But what we see is that, you know, that instant release message that is sent to the banks doesn't necessarily get processed. And that's where I think, you know, whether recognizing it's critical infrastructure or not. Still, it's to do with, you know, the merchant category codes and, there's my parents team would do a superb job. They they were it's the same payments team who worked on the petrol filling station thing, with with the with which was actually a a kind of a mandate that came from Visa and Mastercard to say, you guys, banks, you need to return this. And if there's one thing I'd change, it would be like, if we could fast forward to get to that point where Visa, Mastercard, and others, you know, are saying, banks, you need like, if this is like this, this code, this merchant category code, the EV charging, it's a pre op. Return it, please. Don't just sit on it and leave it unreserved.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:39:03]:
Because we get calls about it, and they, you know, a lot of the time saying, why are you saying to me is taking my money? We're like, we haven't taken your money. We've checked that you've had money, and we've then settled the transaction. You'll we've, you know, we investigate it because it's our duty to check. But 99% of the time, it's the bank that has not processed that return, and it's probably because they just don't see a lot of EV charging transactions. And I worry that you kinda need to wait until we've got the weight of transactions, and then the banks will actually do something about this. So that's probably something I'd really like to change if we could.

Liz Allan [00:39:43]:
Do you know that was gonna be my last question? That would seem to be a dash. No. No. No. No. No. Don't. No.

Liz Allan [00:39:49]:
I might have to come up with another last question now, then. You know, actually there is a question I can ask you that's down here on my little list, because you've got a dash and I'm aware of that. So he's got to get back for his kids, which is perfect. Bless him. Right, so if you could choose one thing to improve other than this about our EV charging. So it's the same question, but I'm just asking it slightly differently. But what is the one thing you would want to change if you could?

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:40:26]:
I think the other thing, probably, which would make a big difference for customers, would be making mapping data everywhere. We we wanna broadcast our data, but then there are certain vehicles that don't show charges when they exist. And that, like, that can't be good for them. That's not in their interest. They wanna sell electric cars, like, show where the electric car charges are. So, trying to make sure that all the data that is available is showing, like, you know, we've got ZapMap, which does a great job of showing all the available charges and, you know, you can you can integrate with ZapMap as a CPO. We share our live availability data with them. But then, other vehicle manufacturers may wanna only show the charges that they produce, perhaps, or that have done some kind of commercial deals with them. And, you know, we talk to them.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:41:23]:
We wanna get that going, but, actually, they might be headquartered outside of the country, and and The UK is a relatively small country in in in global terms. So they're, like, you know, talking to, you know, the third or fourth largest CPO in the UK, which is, you know, maybe the seventh or eighth market biggest market for them is not a priority, and that's kind of annoying. And I think the customer again, like the pre auth thing, the customer loses because they're not aware that these that that there's actually some charges just over there, but you're not being direct to them because the the vehicle manufacturers has decided that they don't want to prioritize certain they wanna prioritize certain networks over others.

Liz Allan [00:42:03]:
And that's real and, like you say, that's a little bit sad, really, isn't it? Because, you know, why don't you just keep all of them? Don't just keep a few of them on your in-car app. You know if you're going to provide that information, make sure people can see it. You know, that's the biggest thing, isn't it? Because not everybody knows about Zapmap, but not everybody knows about Octopus Electraverse, etc., etc. So, so actually, you know, they're just going to rely on what they see in their car. Hopefully, they might use Google, and Google tends to have quite a lot of charges on there. So we'll just see how it evolves, I suppose.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:42:40]:
Yeah. Yeah. I think, yeah, we, we, and by the way, you can find Smart Charge on Electraverse, ZapMap and Google as well. But, but, yeah, I think, actually, you know, it'd be great for Google to, like, have more direct, if I'm being really nerdy about it, OCPI integrations. As of the moment, you kinda publish your data into one place that then Google translates into another way, and it means sometimes, yeah, sometimes it's maybe a bit more complicated than it needs to be, you know.

Liz Allan [00:43:12]:
Yeah. And I like so Let's let's like you say, let's make it let's make it simple. I keep saying it's the kiss syndrome. Keep it simple stupid. I'm not saying everybody's stupid, but I'm just saying.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:43:26]:
I'm glad you said that bit. Like, yeah, a bit there. Because I was thinking that, like, yeah, kiss with with outlook second ask because otherwise it feels like a good bit, you're like insulting somebody.

Liz Allan [00:43:36]:
No. No. Not at all. Not meaning to at all. But look, honestly, Richard, I could talk to you for so much longer, and you're not a geek. And, actually, it's just been lovely. I know you have to dash. So so I'm just gonna say thank you.

Liz Allan [00:43:50]:
It's I'm next yeah. We've got to spend more time chatting, and I've got to try and meet you at some of the upcoming events because there's so many this year anyway, aren't there? So but thank you very much.

Richard Hackforth-Jones [00:44:02]:
It's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you Liz and, yeah, look forward to meeting up in person in the future.

Liz Allan [00:44:07]:
Definitely. So to everybody watching and listening, please like, share, subscribe, go to do all those wonderful things, YouTube, audio channels, make comments,s find us on LinkedIn. Thank you for listening and watching, everybody. Thanks to Richard and from me, I shall see you next time. Bye