Episode 141: Liz Allan and Chris Cheetham - Why Annual Safety Inspections Matter for Every EV Charging Site

Episode 141: Liz Allan and Chris Cheetham - Why Annual Safety Inspections Matter for Every EV Charging Site.

Liz Allan is joined by Chris Cheetham, Founder and CEO of Safer Charging, to explore the often-overlooked world of post-installation care in the EV charging sector. Chris shares his journey from studying environmental science to his early days at PodPoint and the pivotal moment that led him to launch Safer Charging. He explains why EV charge points, much like any safety-critical infrastructure, require ongoing inspection and maintenance, rather than a one-time install-and-forget approach.

Their conversation covers the unique risks within EV charging environments, the importance of fire risk inspections, and the launch of the UK’s first EV Charging Installation Condition Report (EVCICR). They also unpack the real-world impact of overheating units, cable degradation, and poorly managed private infrastructure. Liz and Chris highlight how local authorities, landowners, and fleet operators can better safeguard their EV assets and why public trust is eroded whenever a charger is seen bagged off or left out of service.

Quote of the Episode
"Time degrades user attention as well as hardware. We need to treat charge points like safety-critical infrastructure—not just install and forget."
— Chris Cheetham, Founder & CEO of Safer Charging

Chris Cheetham Bio:
Chris Cheetham is a passionate advocate for safer, smarter EV charging. As CEO of Safer Charging, he works with businesses, councils, and landowners to ensure charge points are correctly installed and maintained to a high standard long after. With deep sector knowledge and a practical, solutions-focused mindset, Chris aims to make safety and reliability the norm across the UK’s charging infrastructure. His work helps clients confidently and clearly navigate fire risk, compliance, and operational performance. 

Chris Cheetham Links:
Website: https://www.safercharging.co.uk
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopher-cheetham-06185873

Transcript

Liz Allan  [00:00:01]:
Hello, everyone. Today, I've got with me Chris Cheetham, who's the founder and CEO of Safer Charging. So, Chris, thank you ever so much for joining me today. We've had lots of conversations over these last few months, haven't we?

Chris Cheetham [00:00:15]:
We have. Yeah. An absolute pleasure to be here. I'm looking forward to it.

Liz Allan  [00:00:19]:
So safer charging. Let's start a little bit before that you know, where you started. Oh, god. Hang on a minute. Tom, I've got a bit of a brain fart coming on. Tom's my producer, by the way. I'm sorry. Let me just right.

Liz Allan  [00:00:37]:
So before we dive into what you're doing at Safer Charging, can you tell me a little bit about your background, what you did before, and what what what you kind of have done in the run up to starting Safer Charging up?

Chris Cheetham [00:00:50]:
Yeah. Absolutely. And I'll try and keep it succinct because I've had a lot of stuff over the, over the years, influence it. But I suppose best to start at university. I studied environmental science. That's not what kicked off my passion for sustainability, but it really cemented everything that I loved about it and avenues that you could go down. I came out of my university course with a head swimming of whether I want to go into forestry management, soil science, or recycling and waste. It was all sorts of stuff.

Chris Cheetham [00:01:26]:
And it kind of just transpired that everything that I needed or wanted to go into either needed more further education or just tons of volunteering. And I did some volunteering as part of the end of it, but I had to pay bills. So I ended up working for my local council in a, setting up a alternate recycling, for a refuse collection scheme. And that was great. I got brilliant exposure to that side of things, and then that contract ended and ended up becoming a bin man because there was a job available. And,

Liz Allan  [00:01:58]:
oh, bless you.

Chris Cheetham [00:01:59]:
Yeah, I absolutely love that though. The camaraderie of it and understanding, you know, what goes on, from last quarter. Brilliant. And then when that finished up, I I kind of fell into sales, as a lot of people do. I think no one really wakes up one morning and goes, mum, I wanna be a salesman.

Liz Allan  [00:02:20]:
But it kind

Chris Cheetham [00:02:21]:
What happened was that my personality and skill set just kind of worked. And I I did a lot of my early my early sales career was, all commission only. So if you don't sell, you don't eat.

Liz Allan  [00:02:34]:
Gosh. Yeah.

Chris Cheetham [00:02:35]:
And that proves that you can either do it or you can't do it. So I learned a lot in those early jobs, about myself and about sales skills and, little b to c at that point. Mhmm. Then, things move towards b to b environment. I'll fast forward a bit to, finding PodPoint, back in the early days of of of them setting up. So, back then I had heard someone talking about a Tesla and how cool it was.

Liz Allan  [00:03:08]:
God. That's so long ago.

Chris Cheetham [00:03:10]:
Yeah. So Crikey. Cars have never bothered me. So I don't have that passion. Some people or many do in our industry.

Liz Allan  [00:03:18]:
You're like my husband.

Chris Cheetham [00:03:21]:
So they're nice. Some are nice. Some are rubbish and, you know, they get you from a to b as far as I'm concerned. When I when I started getting involved, in what what I loved was the the ability to change, and and seeing how this industry particularly was was so right for a a wide scale change that was the biggest change since the horse and cart got replaced. Yeah. And it was gonna happen in my lifetime. And I either become part of it or I just sit on the sidelines and watch. So becoming part of that at the early stage was so, so, like, formative in my understanding of where I am now.

Chris Cheetham [00:04:01]:
So, you know, I used to, I was I was very lucky with the role I had. I would go and speak to leasing companies and big businesses, and I would be the one that was trying to convince them that they weren't just milk floats. There was no proof that the supply chains weren't there. There was one or two vehicles on the road. So it was it was really early days. Mhmm. That was, I absolutely loved it. And the thing that I love most was the ability to help train and transform people's mindsets for accepting that EVs would work for them or their customers.

Chris Cheetham [00:04:42]:
And, yeah. All of that was just fascinating. So I I, spent eight very happy years there and, grew a fantastic team as part of it. Grew up through the business. And, when that came to an end, I remember thinking to myself, well, I just had my daughter at that point, my first child. And, it's a terrible time to not have a job for the first time in my thirty years or so. And then I thought, well, if I don't start my own business now, I probably won't. So it felt like the right opportunity to make it happen.

Liz Allan  [00:05:19]:
It's funny, isn't it? There's always something that sparks that change. You know, I I've I've had that myself, and I know other people who've who've had that besides yourself, you know, you, where something happens in your life and you do kinda go, right, I'm gonna I've gotta do it now. I've I've gotta do it. And I've been kind of running my own businesses since, like, the late nineties because I had that thing that happened, you know, that was like, right. I I need to do this now. If I'm not gonna do it, then I won't, and it won't happen. You know? And I've been kind of running businesses and then employed and then running a business, but I always enjoy running a business because it's just so hard work. People don't realise how hard work is, do they? You know? It really is.

Liz Allan  [00:06:13]:
But it's brilliant. It can be brilliant as well.

Chris Cheetham [00:06:16]:
Yeah. Absolutely. I expected it to be tough and I was under no illusion that it was gonna be an easy ride, but there are certain things that you just can't comprehend until you've done it. It is intensely tough. I would I would say one thing that did go in my favor was, because of COVID and everything moving remote. I had a remote-first role for years. So I got used to, and also was just very comfortable with working from home. So that ability to still focus and, work out what parts of your day are going to be productive and how, how you get rid of the ones that are, are not so good, and get back to a flow state.

Chris Cheetham [00:06:54]:
Like that, that was stuff that I'd already figured out. So I think, yeah, that's that's helped to help. Definitely.

Liz Allan  [00:07:00]:
It yeah. I totally get you. I do like the mix of actually being able to work from home and go out as well, you know, now. But yeah. Yeah. Because there are some people who find working from home very, very difficult, don't they? Yeah. And, you know,

Chris Cheetham [00:07:14]:
it depends on your setup as well. I remember those early days, there were more people who were in their bedroom, with a laptop on their bed because they had nowhere else to go in a flat share or something like that than they did with a proper office space. So, yeah, very, very different, of course, working in that kind of environment.

Liz Allan  [00:07:32]:
Exactly. So let's talk about safer charging then. So you talked about kind of you why you set it up. What does safer charging do, and who who are you helping?

Chris Cheetham [00:07:42]:
Yeah. So safer charging was born from the difficulties that I saw the industry facing already and how I saw it maturing as well. So we we look after, post installation, maintenance and aftercare for commercial clients. And that's everyone from small businesses, right the way up to large-scale businesses, fleet operators, or anything public network for that matter. Mhmm. And then pre-installation, we help with things like how you go about starting the EV journey. So, what does it look like to transition your fleet or, provide, an office charger for for your staff or your visitors? Really taking people on that journey to the point of understanding, what it is that's gonna gonna be important for how it might impact their business. And it's really key as well for that part of the, the sort of consultancy angle to be looking at now, but also the future.

Chris Cheetham [00:08:49]:
So because I've been in this space for so long, I I understand how it's changed and how it's gonna continue changing. So, that part's really important as well that it's it's fit for purpose into the future. And the bit that sort of overlaps either side of that pre-install and post-install is fire risk inspection. And it it should be the case that the majority of charge point installations are, are having a constant, risk inspection performed for the installation. There are a number of horror stories out there which have been created where people haven't had these assessments done. And you spend, I don't know, hundred k or whatever it is for a big installation to to happen, and then you can't turn them on. Because the insurer said, yep. That's not safe.

Chris Cheetham [00:09:38]:
So that that's important to get done first. Like, make sure you measure twice, cut once. That approach is is very sensible for for the charging installs. And then post install, it might be that you've got change of use of the car park, you're redeveloping it, or adding to the install. There there's a number of reasons or or or indeed a a landlord or an insurer is requiring that you you have a look at, updating that risk assessment. So post installation, that's relevant as well.

Liz Allan  [00:10:07]:
So are you working with a variety so it's a variety of stakeholders at various levels that you're you're working with. Is this so we're talking, councils, landowners, CPOs, that kind of thing. Yeah?

Chris Cheetham [00:10:21]:
Yeah. Exactly. And I I like to think it we we sit somewhere in between drivers that need to charge, businesses that want to do the right thing, and then third party interests. And those third parties might be the insurers. They might be fire safety, you know, emergency services, for instance. So somewhere in that mix, to to bring those, various stakeholders together.

Liz Allan  [00:10:47]:
Okay. And you have created, The UK's First electric vehicle charging installation condition report, and that's a long, long, long name, isn't it? Tell me tell me a little bit about that, will you?

Chris Cheetham [00:11:01]:
Yeah. So the EBC ICR. Firstly, it's probably worth saying, just a little bit about an EICR.

Liz Allan  [00:11:14]:
Yes, please.

Chris Cheetham [00:11:15]:
Electrical installation condition report. Now that EICR is something that, if you are a commercial or domestic landlord or you work in facilities, chances are you'll be very familiar with it. And it's it's the industry standard, testing regime that fixed assets go through. So if you are a residential landlord, you have to have one of these performed every five years, at the property or when it changes tenancy, by law. And then on the commercial side, it's a bit more flexible, as to the sort of cadence of that. But typically, you have a five-year cycle of testing. And it's a thorough test. So it goes through, the the the entire circuit that that, that that fixed asset is is, installed upon.

Chris Cheetham [00:12:09]:
So, brief nutshell of EICR. So the EICR is very important. It's recognised. It's in the wiring regulations. You know, it's, it's a recognized standard that people work to. And the thing is that when I was looking at how aftercare is generally looked at with EV charging, it's kind of lumped into the same processes that many other fixed assets have. And that's not the most sensible approach in my view. So what we tend to see is that when a business has installed EV charging, it is likely to be one of the highest or the highest loading assets that they have at their premises.

Chris Cheetham [00:12:59]:
And it's also likely to have a very different usage pattern from other items like a roller shutter door or whatever else might need power. EVs might well charge over eight hours, or whatever the dwell time might be, but it's not going to be a short, sharp burst of power. These are power for a long time.

Liz Allan  [00:13:24]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Cheetham [00:13:25]:
They're very different, in the way that they are used typically to other things that might be at sites. It's also generally untrained users who are operating them. So, and this is this is, not that anyone needs to go through a university degree to use a charge point. But the point being that you might not be trained to look at, potential damage or issues upstream or a charge environment. You just wanna plug in your car and get into your office or whatever it is that you're doing. Or as a fleet driver, you just expect it to work. So the, there's, there's this whole thing around, the, the, the types of risks are, are slight different to many other fixed assets that people will have. And the manufacturers of charge points tend to recommend that an annual inspection be undertaken.

Liz Allan  [00:14:21]:
Yes. Yeah.

Chris Cheetham [00:14:22]:
So and that's very wise. The annual inspection should be thorough. So one of the things that I've done, that I'm passionate about talking about with safer charging, is that the EICR is very important. But it also only takes one part of the picture, really. So you're looking at the electrical safety of that circuit that it's on. So in my view, there are four things that make a successful and safe charging area. And that's your electricals. Your EICR covers that off.

Chris Cheetham [00:14:59]:
You've got, fire risk, making sure that, you know, you've not got combustible materials stored nearby and all those sorts of things. You've then got things like the charging environment. So, what's the bay sizing like? Is the lighting sufficient? And all those sorts of things that make the charging environment, a better, a better experience for people. And then the actual usability. How are people interacting with the charge point? And that might be payment terminals. It might be signage. Things like that. So you've got this, sort of four regions of perspective.

Chris Cheetham [00:15:39]:
And if you're like most businesses lumping the charge point inspection into a five-year testing cycle along with other fixed assets at your site, you're missing quite a bit there in my view. And it's also a long period of time where you could have many thousands of charging cycles happening, within that period. And that's a lot of stress on the, on on on the pinch points of those of those systems. So what I really stress for people is that the frequency and the scope of that EICR, in my view, should change from what you do as a standard setup. So an annual EICR, along with a wider scope of what that's looking at rather than just the great, you know, the cabling passes its stress test. Looking at a bit of a wider picture of what I promote people to be, or suggest people should be looking at.

Liz Allan  [00:16:43]:
I mean, that to me sounds a really, really sensible thing to do because as you say, this is the kind of load that it's putting on the capacity. I suppose it's loading capacity, isn't it, within that building, wherever those charges are attached to, the speed of the charges, how many charges you've actually got. And as you're saying, it's getting people to think in a quite different way in those areas that aren't currently being looked at. So it makes sense. So are you kind of suggesting that people should be doing this on an annual basis, or is it dependent on right? Actually, let me just think again. Would it be best to do it on an annual basis, dependent on the number of charges, or is it irrelevant for the number of charges, really?

Chris Cheetham [00:17:43]:
No. It's not irrelevant. I would say that the thing that changes it is the the, the sort of usage type. So the commercial environment that it's in. So it might be that you've got, one charge point of an office that is in use every day.

Liz Allan  [00:18:01]:
Yeah. In which case

Chris Cheetham [00:18:03]:
That's something which is going to need a bit more warrants a bit more of a greater inspection regime than something which is, you know, not as huge once in a while or something. But even then I mean the sort of degradation that you see, because charge points are out in the wild, right? They are open to the elements a lot of the time or open to rodents, insects or abuse from people that don't care about these things. So even if it's not utilised that often, it can still be important to have this. And I think it's something that we're likely to see in the regulations actually changed, that this becomes an annual requirement for people. So really, we're just getting ahead of the game for people and helping them understand that this is something that they're gonna have to get used to. And I hopefully, what, say this too many times in this, in this podcast. It's not about scaremongering. So I just want to make this clear that we're not saying charge points are unsafe or vehicle fires are gonna happen all the time. No. All the data that I see is that EVs are far less likely to combust than internal combustion engines. You've got charge points that go through millions of charge cycles without any, you know, fire-related events. And there are so many safety mechanisms built in, and the standards of build are excellent.

Chris Cheetham [00:19:32]:
So, you know, it's not about any of that part. But as soon as things leave the production line and they go into the world, and the installer has done their job and they've got everything done, ticked all the boxes, it's then just on its own. And it is unless it's looked at properly and with an experienced eye, there are lots of things that can start to go wrong. And I think this, I was thinking of how else to communicate this. So I'm trying to think, what was I doing in 2015? So 2015, and maybe, everyone listening could have a think about this. What were you doing in your life? Could you then imagine that you were a business installing, let's say, ten to twenty charge points in the early workplace grant? I think it was available then. And up until now, up until today, they've been looked at once. Yeah.

Chris Cheetham [00:20:24]:
Because that's the reality, they've just be coming around to the second inspection. And for me, that's that's not good enough. I think that the, that that cadence needs to change.

Liz Allan  [00:20:38]:
I suppose if you think about it like pat testing, you know, kind of I don't know how often people have to do pat testing, but it's kind of on that, isn't it? It's making sure that, actually, we're not just looking at reliability here. We're looking at we're looking at safety. I mean, reliability is an important important kind of point as well, but the but the safety side of things and one of my old neighbors, bless him, used to say prevention is better than cure, you know, and I really think that that that's a really important thing to think of because you can't just install something like this and just kinda go, there you go. It's like I think it is, it's just to me, it's the right thing to do. Yeah. Rather than just leaving it, like you say.

Chris Cheetham [00:21:27]:
Yeah. That's absolutely right. And I I I there was a a phrase that I really liked, I I heard a little while back, which is, that time degrades user attention as well as hardware. And it's so true. So as soon as you've got chart points, go, into a business environment, typically, they're gonna be the talk of the water cooler or, you know, people are, you know, go downstairs, go and have a look at them.

Chris Cheetham [00:21:52]:
See what they're like, give their opinion. But then off and then once you use it for the first time, you're gonna be paying real close attention to how you interact with it. Once you've done it ten, twenty, 50, hundred times, no one's really paying attention. So one of the things that I, you know, we picked up on an inspection the other day was, these are quite rare, but this was a tethered charge point, an office. And that charge point cable, where it retracts into the map of the cable management area, had become, like the seal on the rubber, had perished at that point. You had exposed. Yeah. And that's the sort of thing that you don't notice if you're using it day in and day out.

Chris Cheetham [00:22:38]:
It's just it just becomes part of your experience to get back in the office and think about what you were doing. So it's really important that people have an external eye come in and look at these things, with the experience of knowing what to look for. And just one final point, you mentioned around what's the right amount, like, the right amount of visits, for instance. It really depends as well on that, on that utilisation and if it's a commercial site. So, for example, for most businesses, I would say that an annual inspection is sufficient. Having some reactive capability as well is really important. But from a proactive side, an annual visit is sufficient. And then it might be that you have a particularly high utilisation area, in which case, it would be worth probably putting in a six-monthly lighter inspection.

Chris Cheetham [00:23:32]:
So we offer these as well, that that typically gonna be, more visual and have a, perhaps a simpler test gun applied, to the, to the charge point, make sure it's still functioning in the way it should. You're not doing the in-depth inspection of the, full testing of the circuit. So that's useful. Or if you're running a public network site, then the CPO is listening. I'm sure they're already doing this. But having monthly or even weekly inspections that are just simple, visual inspections. You've got someone on-site to go and have a look at things, make sure that they're presenting in the way that they should be, and you have no degradation or vandalism or, you know, tree roots grow up in that space and time. And the one other thing I'd say about that is if you're performing that level of inspection, absolutely do it at different times of day because you are not creating your charging experience to be only experienced when the sun is out and everyone's ready to go for a barbecue.

Chris Cheetham [00:24:37]:
It's got to work in the middle of the night. It's got to work in terrible weather conditions, and how is your site presenting then? So that's really important when you're getting that cadence, what sort of, more frequent cadence, just to stagger how that's done throughout the day.

Liz Allan  [00:24:52]:
And, also, I was gonna say this, there are a few things that you've got me thinking about here. So part of it is, like you said, the water cooler conversations. If you're not looking for these things and you're not keeping up keeping up with them, then then actually those water cooler conversations, as happened with one of my friends, last year when we had I mean, I know we don't get a lot of sun in The UK, but sometimes when we do and the way things are going, we get periods of really hot weather, don't we? And they were talking about the fact that some of the charges, and I know I know whose charges they are, the manufacturer. They were overheated. They just weren't working. Whether they'd been put on the right side of the building or you know, because sometimes if you think about it, it's like we we've had this with with kind of with our heat pump that we've got, the the weather where the fan is outside, the there was a temperature sensor, and it's it was in the wrong place because it was hit the sun was hitting it all the time. So when it was only 16 degrees, it was saying it was 28, you know. So, so things like that.

Liz Allan  [00:25:57]:
So there are various issues with sensors and stuff. But for these guys, my friends, the company she was working for, whether they liked it or not, whether the charges were put on the wrong side of the building and in total sunshine or not, but basically, the charges didn't work in really high temperatures. So it's things like that, but isn't it? But it's kind of if I think about this, this is partly to do with a risk assessment as well. It's kinda you know, you've got to keep what you're doing is a bolt onto a risk. If you're looking at the risks of not working or issues or things like that, anybody who runs a business, if we're talking workplace charging specifically, it's, you know, it's in their it's not just in their best interest. It's, you know, something they have to do anyway, isn't it? And like you say, things change over a year. Are you especially if it's the first twelve months or the first twenty-four months, you've got to be looking at this, haven't you?

Chris Cheetham [00:26:55]:
Yeah. And the thing that I keep coming back to with it is that within a business environment, you're gonna have either the owner or the landlord or whoever is the appointed responsible person. Yes. They have a legal responsibility to, you know, under the Health and Safety at Work Act and and and the other regulations, legislation that's in place. It provides a safe environment for their staff and visitors. And what worries me is that there are plenty of examples out there of people who are in that position, who have unknown or unquantified risks sitting around this. Mhmm. But I don't really know what they're getting into.

Chris Cheetham [00:27:38]:
And this goes back to when we were just chatting before this went live about the experience levels of people about EV charging, are, you know, when you look at a country-wide perspective, that it's not deep. There are experts out there, and there are plenty of businesses that do fantastic jobs with quality installations and quality aftercare. But when it comes to designing Charge Point, or thinking about how Charge Point installation might affect your business, the chances of there being an expert often happening is that the charge point project goes to whoever had some availability on their desk at the time. You might be a specialist in HR. You might be a manager. I don't know. But the chances are you're not an expert in EV charging. So you need to have some expertise come in and help out and understand what it is that you should be doing, really.

Liz Allan  [00:28:37]:
And we were talking as well, weren't we, before we were recording about this kind of thing, we could have just talked about the workplace, but we've also talked about councils. And that exit that happens exactly in exactly the same way, and we've been working with some councils recently where, you know, they haven't got the people. Lots of councils haven't got the people to do this work, and they've been thrown something that it's like, I suppose it's a bit like a hot potato, isn't it? You know, like, oh, god. Next person, you know. And it's not, it's not for any, it's not that people don't want to do this. It's just that the capability and the you've been, you know, you've got enough in your day job. Yeah. Most of them have got enough going on in the day job, and then they've got this other thing that's been thrown at them, you know.

Liz Allan  [00:29:27]:
And you've only got a certain capacity to take on that information anyway, haven't you? So Yeah. The stuff that we've been doing recently with these councils is, you know, it's different to yours, but it's actually looking at the service that they've been receiving.

Chris Cheetham [00:29:46]:
Yeah.

Liz Allan  [00:29:46]:
And actually, the number of faults, because we can go on to faults as well, can't we, here? The number of faults that are happening on various charges. Yeah. Where they're coming from, why they're happening, are they being rectified within the SLA, you know, and that kind of stuff. And if we look at the story. Go on.

Chris Cheetham [00:30:07]:
Oh, sorry. Sorry. Dimin's big heavy. So it's it's so important. The, the the quality of that aftercare just it it varies.

Liz Allan  [00:30:16]:
And Yeah.

Chris Cheetham [00:30:16]:
It is so this is something which is not unique to Evie Charlie whatsoever. This is, you could point out that this pretty much applies to any industry. But most parts of the charge point value chain want to talk about new charges. And that's because, you know, you wanna tell the new thing, of course, that's self-evident, but they tend to work better. The parts are gonna be more readily available. They might have more capabilities for upselling software or whatever it might be. You want to talk about the new stuff. You don't want to be talking about all the old stuff that's in the ground.

Chris Cheetham [00:30:52]:
However, in E V charging, those old things are gonna have to do that, do that innings for probably eight to ten years to get a full life cycle

Liz Allan  [00:31:01]:
out of

Chris Cheetham [00:31:01]:
The charge point. So we need to be talking about what happens next. And that's exactly why I started this business, to be talking about. Well, don't just think about here and now, getting the install complete. Think about what happens next and how you're gonna look after the site and those charges for the ongoing period. And, one of the stats that I pulled out, this is a few months back. So this and it might have even improved further by the time this goes live. But, when I last looked, there were about 3,500 charge points out of service on the public network.

Chris Cheetham [00:31:34]:
So there's about a per cent of the time, I think. And that that doesn't shock me. It might shock some people as to how many that is. There's quite a high number, I suppose. But when you consider that many of those will be old defunct units that just haven't been cared for, things like public transport regulations are gonna be changing that. And the PCPR is a very positive thing for the public network. So that you've got that 99%, reliability uptime for for DC Rapids. And I would hope that we start to see AC given the attention that it deserves as well.

Chris Cheetham [00:32:18]:
But the thing that I saw happening, and again, this is one of those where I'm not looking fear-monger or anything. It's just the way my brain works. Some call it pessimistic. I like to think that I'm realistically optimistic. It is that if you've got that many charge points out of service, and something which is, the public network is rightly so, given the headlines, it's given the brand reputations that get paid on it. It's given all the money because that's where the big cash is. What's gonna happen when these businesses have back-of-house private charge points that need service as well? What's your priority line? Is it a public network? So I don't want to see happen is that the private businesses that have invested a lot of time and money into making the switch to electric vehicles be sort of seen as a lesser priority.

Chris Cheetham [00:33:13]:
I don't want that to happen. So my priority is making sure that businesses are given the support that they should have and they deserve to have, whether they've got an expert in there or whether, like you, the council reference that you just mentioned. They haven't got anyone who normally picks this up. It shouldn't be a problem. That shouldn't be to their detriment. They should have someone who's happy to independently advise and take care of that for them. So that's what I'm here to do.

Liz Allan  [00:33:38]:
And you know what? It's kind of, and I think people think because we're both consultants here, aren't we, when it comes down to it. And I think neither of us is the kind of people that you kinda you know, the old-fashioned consultants that go, give me your watch and I'll tell you the time. You know, it's that's not what it's that's not what it's about at all. It's about actually making a difference, and I was just going to talk to you about the fact that the 3 and a half thousand charges are out of service. Do you know what? They're not all just old ones, are they? If you know, I'd love to know what the kind of the, the longevity of these these charges are, but I've seen brand new chargers, you know, or not quite brand new, but ones that have been bagged off in in service stations that that, you know, you've got a you've got a bay of about, you know, 15 charges, and out of those, six of them have been bagged off. How does that look to the public as well? That's the other thing. It's this that's the whole point of them being called public charges, you know, because the public sees them. Yeah.

Liz Allan  [00:34:41]:
And and what what does what impression does that give to the public if they're all bagged off with black bags? You know, we've got it. And they're especially if we're talking about ultra-rapid charges, they're not cheap. It's you know, why would you put why would you install something and then just bag it off? You know? What's what? What is happening for that to be a thing? Because, again, that public perception is just seeing, you know, half a dozen chargers bagged off, new ones. So, I think and like you say about the Charge Point regs, I hope that things change because of them. We'll see, won't we, after the end of the first twelve months, on looking at kind of open data and things like that.

Chris Cheetham [00:35:30]:
Yeah, absolutely. And I really hope things change as well because, you know, I've started a business to give myself and my family a nice life. And, you know, ultimately, I'm not here as a charity. I'm here to make money. So there there is that. But I really want to make sure that whatever I do is based around helping people.

Chris Cheetham [00:35:53]:
That's how I've always done this in my career today. You know, I I get the most satisfaction out of being able to say say at the end of a project, I've helped someone overcome a massive hurdle that they had or, you you know, I've saved them x amount of money or look at this problem that they've avoided three years down the line because of what I've been able to do for them. That's what gives me the satisfaction to keep doing it again every day. So, you know, I wholeheartedly believe that this is the right way to do things. And, yes, you need a bit of carrot and stick as part of that. The PCPR is definitely gonna bring the standard up. But it also needs people to be approaching it in the right way, and really wanting to make a difference.

Liz Allan  [00:36:37]:
Yeah. I think and I'm the same. I'm the same as you. You know? I just want to say it's about getting people to recognise that having an external set of eyes is sometimes a good thing, because actually I don't know and I don't know about you. I'm very, very good at challenging people's norms, you know, the way that they're working and kind of asking why. What is the why? And is there a better way of doing this? And, you know, and the other thing is, especially with working with these councils recently, their gut feeling was that there were problems. Yeah. And, actually, it took, you know, kind of us to kind of jump in and delve into data.

Liz Allan  [00:37:25]:
And once you've got data, you know, you people can't argue with data. You know? There's the gut feel, which is great, but, actually, once you've got evidence, that makes a difference, and then you can move from there. And building a case. That's the other thing, isn't it? 

Chris Cheetham [00:37:44]:
So, you know I think that's a really important point. And one of the main things that we help deliver as well is that there is a lot of data out there, and things like so, so you may be familiar with RC 59. It's one of the, documents which, is is guidance based around electric vehicle charging for, in, sort of the, commercial environment typically. And the things that you get come out of that. It's a very comprehensive document. It misses some things. It's not entirely complete, but it's insurance industry focused. They like it.

Chris Cheetham [00:38:26]:
It's nice and tick-boxy. It does the job of getting through all this stuff. But at the end of it, one of the reports we had, we compiled the other day, was 40-odd pages of detailed fire risk inspection, advice. And and it's it's, it's not very specific to the environment that it's in. So it's very generic to cater for lots of different scenarios that it might face. So, as a business, then being handed that back, what are you supposed to do with that? Data is great, but it's only good if you can actually interpret it for your business and use it as as something actionable. So what we do is then we go through all of that, use all of our experience to say, actually, here's your priority action list of stuff that you really have to think about. Here's the things that, you know, when you redevelop the car park, whatever it might be, then is your time, or stuff that is really not relevant to you.

Chris Cheetham [00:39:23]:
So don't worry reading all of all of these, like, extra pages of stuff that is not relevant. Here's the stuff you actually need to care about. So it's cutting through that noise. And a lot of the consultancy work is about saying there's so much information out there. If you try and just Google what you should do, oh my gosh, there is so much out there, and it is so much of it is so misleading. So having someone like yourself who knows what they're talking about and who's come into a business and say, actually, here are the things that you need to consider. It's so powerful.

Liz Allan  [00:39:57]:
Yeah. It's the prioritisation. Like you said, breaking stuff down because, you know, people don't always understand what all this stuff is. But it's the I always say that it's always good to work out what the quick wins are first, because quick wins give people confidence. And, actually, once you do it, you know, work on an improvement for a long time, if you're doing something which we call a step change, a step change is a massive project that could take twelve months. And sometimes when you're working on something that long, people start losing that kind of will, well, they lose the will to live for themselves. Do you know what I mean? And it's kind of, oh my god. We're ever gonna get there.

Liz Allan  [00:40:37]:
Whereas if you're starting off with kind of short, quick wins, and kind of go right. Okay. These are the things that we can do within a really short period of time, and they will make a difference because it is about incremental change, you know, in in a lot of cases. Because people want to feel that they're, you know, that they're being listened to, that they're, you know, that things are moving in the right direction. And so you go for quick wins, short, medium, and long-term goals and things like that. And that's what we're both doing. We're just doing different parts of the charging journey, aren't we? Or, you know, there are probably areas that we actually overlap, but it's very complementary to one another.

Chris Cheetham [00:41:18]:
Absolutely. Yeah. No. It's really key. Yeah. I'm pretty passionate about that.

Liz Allan  [00:41:24]:
So if we look at kind of the future of charging but actually do you know what there's a couple of things so so far and I did say to you I was going to ask you this one what would you say was as has been your proudest moment so far? That's not the future. This is kind of what what's already happened that's that's made you really proud.

Chris Cheetham [00:41:49]:
I mean, with Safer Charging, I would say, getting a first deal over the line, proving that what I was doing was relevant to people. That was a nice ego boost, of course. But it's more about just saying, you know, I'm not on my own here. I've not just had an idea that was random and thought, oh, people will love it. It actually works. And to hear feedback from people that it's, you know, been incredibly useful in helping them, cut through the noise and get what they needed sorted, or listening when others won't. You know, that's the whole thing around just providing a level of service that people actually can trust. I think that I take a lot of pride in being able to do that.

Liz Allan  [00:42:38]:
Brilliant. No. That's good. That's good. And, actually, I know exactly what you're saying, you know, with regards to the kind of work coming through. It's one of those things where it helps your confidence and, you know, all of a sudden, you're kind of like, okay. So I do know what I'm talking about, actually. And that, you know, is not the fact that I want to do this.

Liz Allan  [00:43:00]:
You're you're proving that that things things are actually coming to fruition, which is brilliant. So well done well done you. Oh, well done us. Anyway, so if we look ahead then now, what is your what's your kind of, biggest hope for the the e for the EV charging sector? What would you like to see it look like, and how would it help people on a daily basis?

Chris Cheetham [00:43:27]:
Yeah. So our the the vision statement that I put together for safer charging is a world where EV charges just work safely. So the the premise behind that is is that it's not something that you have to even think about. You are you are there as a user of a charge point to just plug your vehicle in and get on your way.

Liz Allan  [00:43:48]:
And you

Chris Cheetham [00:43:49]:
might interact with it through your app or, you know, your energy provider or whatever scenario you're in. But you don't want to be thinking about anything else. So that's the part where I want this to become something that people's perceptions of charge points, so that they they they just function. They are there to work. They are easy to use. And, people don't have that fear of, should I transition my fleet now? Is this the right time? Is the public network actually pants? Can I rely on it? You know, all those sorts of things. I don't want to be a thing anymore. The, you know, the whole thing around, that there is no PCPR equivalent of private businesses.

Chris Cheetham [00:44:38]:
That's that's where I see an opportunity to to say, well, we can raise the standard there. Let's make this something which people can have confidence in adopting electric vehicles throughout their lives and all different business environments and personal use. It that's what I want to see. The, it's not just range anxiety anymore that that that moved away, didn't it? Sort of charge anxiety that's, now the, now is it gonna work when you get there? Is there gonna be a queue? All those sorts of things. I want all that to go away. And it's totally achievable.

Liz Allan  [00:45:14]:
And final question then. We've talked about your children, your family, and kind of, you know, what you'd like. But what legacy would you like to leave

Chris Cheetham [00:45:30]:
So moving forward? Yeah. In terms of legacy for my children, I want them to see that you can you can be successful with something that is there to make a difference. Like, I could have chosen any number of different business ideas that I had, and there are ones that would have been way more commercially successful. So, you know, it's not just about making money. Yes. That would be a lovely thing to be asked to provide a great life for my family. But I think the overriding thing is to have a passion and fill it and just, you know, follow that on, see it through. And if it doesn't work, then you know, you move, you learn from it, and you move on to the next thing.

Chris Cheetham [00:46:16]:
But you've you've tried and and and I think that's the important point. It's about saying that, you know, you you can, have a vision and and see it through.

Liz Allan  [00:46:26]:
Brilliant. Brilliant. Well, look. I'm gonna share your website and all of your links, everything like that in in the show notes. But on that point, I just want to say, Chris, it's been really interesting talking to you. It's been lovely. Like I say, we've had a few chats over the past few months, and you know, it's just been nice to get to know you and hopefully everybody who who are watching and listening will feel absolutely the same. So so now I'm going to ask you the audience just to say if you've enjoyed this episode, please don't forget to like and subscribe and share your the podcast with your friends your colleagues anyone anyone passionate about the future of EVs and sustainable transport or just generally it really helps us kind of you know grow these conversations.

Liz Allan  [00:47:15]:
But thank you again, Chris. It's been lovely to talk to you and to everybody else listening and watching. I'm gonna say see you next time. Thanks. Bye bye.

Chris Cheetham [00:47:23]:
Thank you so much. Bye.

Liz Allan  [00:47:25]:
Bye. There we go. We did.