Episode 143: Liz Allan and Daveena Saranna - Diversity, Equity, and the Future of EVs

Episode 143: Liz Allan and Daveena Saranna - Diversity, Equity, and the Future of EVs.

Liz Allan welcomes the inspiring and dynamic Daveena Saranna, Campaigns Manager (EV) at Green.TV Media. With a background rooted in sustainability, storytelling, and diversity, Daveena shares her unique journey from growing up in a Porsche dealership to championing equity and inclusion in the EV space.

A driving force behind the Top Women in EV campaign, Daveena speaks candidly about building community, redefining leadership, and what it means to create meaningful change across the sector. From curating impactful events to celebrating hidden voices, she discusses how Top Women in EV has become a platform for authenticity, allyship, and growth, locally and globally.

In a deeply personal and relatable conversation, Liz and Daveena also explore their experiences as neurodivergent women in the industry. They speak openly about the challenges and empowerment that come from understanding their diagnoses, and how embracing difference leads to stronger teams, richer stories, and more human workplaces.

Daveena Saranna Bio:
Daveena Saranna is Campaigns Manager (EV and Top Women in EV) at Green.TV Media, where she champions inclusion, storytelling, and strategic engagement in the EV industry. With a background in global sustainable development and previous experience at Everything Electric (formerly Fully Charged), Daveena combines academic insight with creative flair. She is a passionate advocate for equity, neurodiversity, and creating human-centred experiences that drive lasting change in the clean tech and automotive sectors.

Quote of the Episode:
“Diversity is a fact. Inclusion is a choice. And action, whether you’ve got a whole department or you're just one person doing your best, still matters.”
— Daveena Saranna

Transcript

Liz Allan [00:00:01]:
So today, I've got with me Daveena Sarana, an absolutely gorgeous woman and absolutely lovely as well. We've been talking for ages before this podcast, so it's gonna be a really interesting one. Davina, thank you ever so much for joining me. I really appreciate it.

Daveena Saranna [00:00:17]:
Thanks for having me. I feel so honoured. Bast of it. Stop it.

Liz Allan [00:00:22]:
So you are the campaign manager brackets EV for green TV media. Let's have a little bit of your background and find out what she's done throughout her career so far, because it's very interesting and she's got a very interesting family. So give us a little bit of lowdown, Divina.

Daveena Saranna [00:00:41]:
Yes. I have. Gosh. Well I'll have to start young because it wouldn't be me if I didn't tell a story the long way. I think you need you need all of the context for it to make sense. So yes. As you mentioned currently campaigns manager. Looking after EV and top women in EV for Green TV Media.

Daveena Saranna [00:00:59]:
Before that I worked for Fully Charged, then now called Everything Electric. Working in content and specifically their Instagram. So I was raised in a Porsche dealership which sounds very odd and very bizarre. And my mum was actually working there the day that she gave birth to me. Just crazy.

Liz Allan [00:01:17]:
No way. Yeah. Oh my gosh.

Daveena Saranna [00:01:20]:
I'm born I was born the day well, the 12/31/1999. I've just shared my birthday on the Internet. I'm sure it'll be fine.

Liz Allan [00:01:26]:
Hey. Don't worry. I'll keep it up. Well, everybody nobody will tell anybody, will you?

Daveena Saranna [00:01:30]:
Yeah. I always get stopped at the airport because I've got such a funny birthday. So literally right before the turn of the millennium. Anyway, a side note, my parents started and ran an independent Porsche dealership, and they started in 1985. And sort of a prequel to that, my dad came here as an immigrant, nothing but three pounds in his suitcase, like an incredible entrepreneur. Didn't speak the language at all. And just built this whole business. Met my mum, they fell in love.

Liz Allan [00:01:59]:
Oh my god.

Daveena Saranna [00:02:01]:
Maybe. Had Autobahn Porsche. So I grew up in a background with cars and I'm one of two. I've got an older brother and he was super into cars and I was just so unfazed. Like I was just so over it and people would say, you've come to school in this car. Okay. I don't even know what that is and and I was just completely over it and But I really did love geography. I loved it.

Daveena Saranna [00:02:23]:
I loved knowing how the world works, globalisation, and the economy, and I just thought it was so interesting. And when I got to uni, or when I was looking at going to uni, I didn't really know what I wanted to do, and I thought Right, I really want to do geography. And we live very close to Warwick University and they're having all these sample lectures about courses that they may or may not run. And they had one for global sustainable development, and I just thought it was a sign. I'm really looking for signs. And I thought this is a sign. I was so confused about what I wanted to do when I found this thing, and I actually got in through clearing. Didn't make the grades that I wanted to.

Daveena Saranna [00:02:59]:
Had undiagnosed learning differences. Got in on such a whim. I was a massive nerd and had been attending the lectures whilst I was still at school Oh. To play how much I love it. So I'd go on a Monday night for two hours in my school uniform.

Liz Allan [00:03:14]:
Oh, bless you. And sit at the back

Daveena Saranna [00:03:16]:
of the lecturers like a creep and then I the woman recognized me and said, oh it's you. And I was like, please let me in. I'll do anything. Like, I'm so desperate to be a part of it. And she was she just said I love your passion and that genuinely is what got me into the University of Warwick. So I did. Oh. Three years. I never had three years as an undergraduate there.

Daveena Saranna [00:03:35]:
Then I got a scholarship to do my master's. So I did my master's. I did one year of a PhD looking at an EV project, and I didn't love it, so I made a big decision and left. And then I had six months where I was like, what's my place in the world? What do I do? Where do I belong? And applied to the University of Oxford, got rejected, applied again, got in, and started my job with Green TB, and it all kind of fell into place very quickly and very suddenly. And I guess I would say I fell into automotive, but I love it now, which is very bizarre to me. And I guess I'm kind of laughing at a younger me who said I'd never work in automation. That's so boring. And now here I am.

Daveena Saranna [00:04:17]:
So Little did you know. Little did you know.

Daveena Saranna [00:04:20]:
Whistle-stop tour of my life there.

Liz Allan [00:04:22]:
So we've we've got a we I would it would be very remiss of me if we didn't actually say who your parents were because because your dad was one of my first podcast interviewees over two years ago, which is it blows my mind that it's that who are your parents? 

Daveena Saranna [00:04:40]:
Yes. My parents are Lash and Charnjit Seranna. They're the co-founders of E-Zoo, which does salary sacrifice for businesses and subscription, and they have run that for just under eight years, I would say. But at the point I knew I wanted to do sustainability, that kind of influenced them to get rid of Autobahn Porsche and go into electric vehicles, which at like 2012 is a bit wild. There was no buzz sort of around EVs as there is now. And yeah, it's been kind of a weird family journey unintentionally again. When I was younger, I would have said I'd never worked with my parents. I actually ended up supporting them kind of on and off with easy for a while.

Daveena Saranna [00:05:22]:
So it's all worked out in a way that I never would have predicted, but actually I'm quite happy about it. So Yeah.

Liz Allan [00:05:29]:
And it's fantastic. And so last week, let's just talk about you, you were kind of you, you are more present in the kind of Top women in EV space, aren't you? Because you were kind of quite highly involved in that a was it a couple of months ago? Gosh. Was it January? It's a little while ago now anyway, isn't it? But moving that whole top women in e v brand as it were forwards, I think is a, you know, it's a really, really good thing and you're kind of really quite involved in that, aren't you? Do you want to just kind of give a little bit of background on that as well?

Daveena Saranna [00:06:12]:
Yes. So, Top Women in EV is a campaign that was born sort of in COVID times and in lockdown as a way to celebrate and uplift women who were working in the EV industry, and it just grew. Like, obviously, there was a massive appetite for it. And people realised that this was like the missing part of the EV industry, which is really nice. Sort of more recently, Jill and I picked up the project from a colleague, and we kind of just sat down and had a really honest conversation and said What has our experience been in the EV industry? You know, Jill's got a wealth of experience. You know, in her back pocket, and I'd say just kind of starting out, where do we see similarities? Where do we have difficulties? What do we want from the industry? Like what do our friends in the industry want? And we sat down and made a strategy earlier in the year with our fantastic colleague Rich Smith, who is like our number one ally in the world. Oh. And we said we want in-person events.

Daveena Saranna [00:07:07]:
We want to network. We want to grow the campaign, and we want to celebrate more women. We want to reinvigorate the mentoring program, and you know, we want to do a podcast and all these other things, and then we were like really fussy. We said, " Who do we want to work with? Who supports our ethics? Who backs up our values and what we mean? Like, for us, it's never been a business proposal. It's never been about you know, making money or anything like that. It's just been something that's been the right thing to do and I feel like my parents have really instilled that in me like they're such ethical people and everything they do is kind of by these values and I'm so glad that Jill and I aligned because you know we were saying how how do we want to feel? How do we want to make other women feel? How do we get women into the industry? How do we get men involved? Like it was, I think it was like a two-hour chat that we had, and we just brainstormed all this stuff, and then throughout the year, we've been putting together that strategy and looking at what that actually means in the real world. So I'm so protective over it. I think it's like my baby.

Daveena Saranna [00:08:12]:
I'm, you know, it's my little project. But it's I never when I was at school they said oh you know you'll have a job that doesn't even exist now and I thought yeah yeah sure sure I will. What could that possibly be? I think this is one of those jobs where people say Do you work in marketing and I told Mum, Not really. Do you work in automotive? Yes. Like, do you work in EV? It's an indescribable job because we just do so much. We, you know, it's a bit of culture and a bit of DEI. It's a bit of business development. It's a little bit of marketing, and it's just like a lot of love.

Daveena Saranna [00:08:44]:
That's all that goes into the projects, and we've been overwhelmed by the support from companies that are, you know, SMEs in the UK, international companies, men, women, everyone in between and getting involved. It's been a real joy to run, which I don't know if many people can say that about their jobs. It's a joy.

Liz Allan [00:09:03]:
No. Certainly.

Daveena Saranna [00:09:04]:
And it feels like an honour because people are trusting you with their commitments and their stories. And I guess their hopes and dreams sounds like kind of big and heavy but I think that's that's how it feels on a day to day basis.

Liz Allan [00:09:17]:
But you have kind of, you know, sort of the so I was just I don't think I've talked about this on the podcast before. So I was actually one of the judges, which was amazing. I was also a finalist, not in the same category, funnily enough. I didn't, you know, mark my own homework. But actually looking at the women that were coming through the the category that that I was looking at, there was, you know, there's a lot of there's so much talent that that probably, you know, there were people that that I was judging, you know, being judged for, that I'd not come across before. You know? And, actually, it's about highlighting and sharing that and giving us more of a voice, isn't it? Yeah. No.

Daveena Saranna [00:10:06]:
We were really overwhelmed with the nominations that we had earlier in the year. We had over 350, and I had the pleasure of reading every single one. Woah. And it was exciting to see that some women had over 10 nominations alone because so many people that they've worked with in the past that some said I've never met this person in real life but I've seen them online and this is what I can say and I cry I'm a crier but I cried because some of them yes were about somebody's professional achievements but a lot were about who they are as a person and what they stand for and you know there are a few that stick with me. One said this person stuck by me when my dad did, and they were really there for me outside of work hours. They didn't have to be. They didn't have to go above and beyond. They could have stopped at 5PM, but they never did.

Daveena Saranna [00:10:52]:
They always supported me and helped me to grow in my career and my confidence, and that was a gorgeous one. There was somebody who said they offered to babysit my kids and look after me, even though they don't have their own, and you know they're not really interested in motherhood, but it was that sense of solidarity. And for me, the Top Women in EV is about being human and being equal and reading the nominations brought that back to life, and I always feel sad for everybody else that didn't get a chance to read them because they were just really special, you know. This woman stood up to a misogynistic man in a meeting in front of 20 people and said sod you and I just thought I'm obsessed. But they're just things that you know, you'd never put that on a CV, but actually probably should because it's really good and it's a really good indication of who you are as a person and what you're bringing to a company that could never be measured. It was just it was really, really brilliant. And I'm already looking forward to next year's nominations and next year's entries because I think we're just gonna see more of the same, more from younger people that are maybe on grad schemes or just gotten into the industry or from women that are in their fifties and sixties and have just moved over to this industry from I mean, we had some that moved over from catering and events like nothing to do with automotive industry. And it's just like changing the world, and I think that's pretty cool.

Liz Allan [00:12:16]:
And I agree, and I think a lot of it is, we're all on the same wavelength, aren't we? You know? And it is, and why shouldn't we be shouting about this? So, so yeah. I think that is a really, really good thing, as you know, the events you've started running for top women in EV as well, and I know you've got a number of different events throughout the year. You had one last last week, didn't you, when you were on the on the panel and hosting it and talking and, you know, so so how how is that how's that been? How's that journey been for you? Because it can either break you or make you, can't it, in some ways, you know, just going on stage or talking on a panel or whatever and talking to people. How did you feel?

Daveena Saranna [00:13:05]:
Well, first of all, I have the utmost respect for anybody who works in events because that is stressful. That is another level of stress that I haven't experienced before. It's Yeah. It's really interesting. I think again, Gill and I are really keen on being authentic and having you know lived experience and understanding things, and the panel that we just had earlier last week at Shell Centre in London was epic because we, I mean, I think about every aspect. If somebody takes a breath, I want to have thought about how it will be and what it will mean. But we curated people from SMEs, UK-based companies, to the big international global companies with a load of funding, and the fact is, we're all facing similar challenges. Mhmm.

Daveena Saranna [00:13:51]:
We've all got different approaches and we've all got different resources to be able to tackle some of those issues or some of those problems, but to have a sense of solidarity that runs so deep and to have over a hundred people in the room that can be honest because it's not being filmed, it's not being recorded, they don't have to be you know, Divina from green TV. It could just be Divina. That was so nice, and some of those conversations where people said, Oh, you also feel like that. Oh great, okay, because I do too, and we're actually far more similar than we thought. Well, let's get a meeting to chat about that because I'm really interested. I was kind of just standing in the corner the whole time, beaming, and I thought I didn't want to talk to anyone. I just want to soak it, soak it all in. It was great, and it feels nice to have built upon a community because the commute there was a community already there.

Daveena Saranna [00:14:39]:
Built upon a community and bring more people into it and offer different opportunities to explore sort of relationships and like the the essence of community working towards a problem together was really really joyous and it felt so rewarding. It just felt like because you're it feels like you've invited somebody to your birthday party. Are they going to show up? Will they come?

Liz Allan [00:15:02]:
And they did. That makes sense. And you had and you had a lot, like I say. I mean, yeah, just I'm sure it's a shame I wasn't able to make it. I'm still I am still on crutches at the moment after my after my off, but, you know, actually there were other things going on as well, but it it looked like an amazing amazing turnout, and that always makes a makes a massive a massive difference. So on a day-to-day basis, what are you like? You said you're doing a multitude of things within Green TV. What other kinds of projects are you working on?

Daveena Saranna [00:15:37]:
So I've got my top room in an EV hat, and then when I'm not wearing that, I'm working on some of the bigger events. So the EV summit, which is massive, that's over two days

Daveena Saranna [00:15:47]:
In September and then heat pump summit which is the day before so three days of 

Liz Allan [00:15:51]:
Oh my goodness.

Daveena Saranna [00:15:52]:
Minutes I know. Yeah. It's pretty hectic. We do loads of sorts of business development services, like managed intros, so that takes up some time as well. I think that's like the nature of the beast with small businesses is that you tend to do a lot but I really enjoy that actually and I enjoy the flexibility that they provide and you know some of my friends I think oh you work in a big fancy corporate office. I'd love to do that and then I take a harder thinking I think no I wouldn't. I'd say that's not for me. So, having you know a level of say, I mean I'm 25 and to have a project like top women in EV that I've got such sort of malleability with that we can shape it and mould it however we want and take it in new directions.

Daveena Saranna [00:16:37]:
That's been an honour because I don't know if you'd get that opportunity anywhere else. And it's been exciting. It's been really nice to just shake things up a bit. You know, automotive can be quite stiff. Mhmm. And then to say, well, I'm actually we're branching out and doing EV, and we're doing this and we're doing that. Like the appetite for it has definitely been there, and it's been so nice to just provide for it and say, okay. Yeah.

Daveena Saranna [00:16:59]:
We'll do that. Would you be able to do that in a big corporate environment because it's quite? No. It's slow and sluggish. No. It works mentally; that works for me because I'm that kind of person.

Liz Allan [00:17:11]:
I'm so I mean, being the type of business, you know, Green TV is, it means that you're a little bit more agile, doesn't it? You know, which is which, is really good. And thinking about what you're doing with your kind of project, top women in EV, you are creating your own legacy, aren't you? That you're gonna leave, you know, whenever. It's so you are building something that nobody's done before.

Daveena Saranna [00:17:38]:
Yeah. Which is weird because then you're like, god, I could really get this wrong. I could really do an awful job, and then that would be embarrassing. But I think having a great team to work on it. So working with Gill and Rich has been fab, and actually opening up like yes, it's Top Women in EV, but we invite men to all of our events

Liz Allan [00:17:57]:
Mhmm.

Daveena Saranna [00:17:58]:
And we invite men to follow our LinkedIn page and get involved and ask questions. And for me, that's been a good sign because at the event that we had with Shell, there were loads of men, and I thought, oh okay, good, like this is engaging to you as well, and you're excited to sort of take on a leading role with this. It's Yeah. It's just really fun. It's fun and scary. It's like a roller coaster. You're like, woo, will I? Won't I? I don't know. And then you come off thinking, yeah.

Daveena Saranna [00:18:27]:
I would do that again.

Liz Allan [00:18:28]:
That's good. That's good. And actually, because of the fact that it got there was such an impetus around the time of the, you know, kind of award, you know, awards and the finalists and everything over a few days, it kind of created a real buzz, didn't it? Yeah. Which which was a really brilliant thing to to kind of to feel. And there were lots of women in the sector who were recognised through each category, which was lovely. Like I say, people who ladies who I didn't I didn't even know, but I now kind of follow on LinkedIn or whatever. It means that, even if we get an opportunity to connect with others, why wouldn't we? You know?

Daveena Saranna [00:19:09]:
I think we've found or we've kind of struck the right balance between online and in person, because if you would have told me, you know, you can move so many people through an online campaign, I would have thought, can you? I'm a bit sceptical, but I'm actually working on it, living on it, and getting in contact with over 70 women from across the world. You can create a real buzz on LinkedIn, and actually, we're one of their highest performing campaigns. Just from something that was started in lockdown as you know a sort of let's just try this and see how it goes thing. It's become a force and people look forward to it. People you know schedule little bits in their calendar. It's brilliant and the fact that it coincides with International Women's Day, Mhmm. And kind of garners masses of support again across the world has been really cool to think that an Oxford-based business is making waves in China or Kenya or you know Dubai. That's not unthinkable, but it's pretty crazy.

Liz Allan [00:20:09]:
But it's just shows like I say, the solidarity and the kind of everything, every time I say, everybody coming together. And I was I was gonna gonna say really, excuse me, it's brilliant that you had men attending last week as well. So I was gonna talk to you about you've got a really strong voice for kind of equity and inclusion. And I am very much of the same mindset. And that was kind of the the kind of the category that I was nominated for was accessibility and equity, which was which is what I stand for. You know? But it would be great to hear your thoughts on how you feel equity and inclusion in the sector are moving. You know, whether it's to do with top women in EV or just kind of on a general basis. Because like you, you know, you've kind of said to me before as well, haven't you, that that automotive is predominantly a male sector, isn't it? But it doesn't mean that women can't love it too.

Daveena Saranna [00:21:15]:
Yeah. Absolutely. I think, gosh. There's so much to unpack there. DI is obviously in the headlines massively, isn't it? It's being slashed. It's being cut. People don't think we need it anymore. I think the reason that we need DEI is because we're not on a level playing field.

Daveena Saranna [00:21:31]:
And therefore, that makes it hard for certain people with certain backgrounds to access things that they deserve. Opportunities, resources, anything like that. For me, you know, there are two kinds of approaches to DEI. Like when I think about my dad, he runs a business, has a female co-founder, like he doesn't know all the buzzwords. He doesn't have a big HR department but he's just like well that's right. You know right is right. People deserve access to the same things, and he doesn't have all the fancy terminology, but the intent is there. And then you work with you know we had this event at Shell and they've got a massive HR department and all these DI policies and they've got the graphics to go with it and it's just like woah.

Daveena Saranna [00:22:11]:
You know, you can feel that there's a load of work gone into that. And for me, I don't really care which way you are. Whether you've got the whole department or you're just one person plugging along, saying this is what I believe in. Action is action, and for me that's just the most important thing and I I admire people that are willing to get it wrong and say do you know what I might have made a mistake in the past. I might have said the wrong thing, or you know, said something in the wrong way, but actually, I want to learn. I want to do better. I want to ask questions. That's really I think all all we can ask of people to be willing to learn.

Daveena Saranna [00:22:48]:
Like, I don't know DEI. I've been schooled many times over, and I actually want to continue to be because I'm learning. Like it would be so boring if I knew everything. I couldn't possibly like the world changes every day. I must change with it, and I think that sentiment of like being committed to lifelong learning, just you know from what you hear and from what you see, is great, and there's a guy that I love on LinkedIn. I'm gonna have to give him a shout out because he's just so brilliant. He's called Stuart Humphrey, and he Oh,

Liz Allan [00:23:17]:
I knew you were gonna say Stuart. He's lovely. Isn't he

Daveena Saranna [00:23:19]:
The greatest person alive? Like he is always on LinkedIn, supporting women, saying What can I do to help? I know I've got a question, like can you just help me a little bit? And I think good for you. Like you've got on LinkedIn, you've put yourself out there. You said I don't know something. Can I learn? And people have just met him with such warmth and grace and compassion, and now he's able to do that with other people, and it really is like that ripple effect, isn't it? That all it takes is one drop in the ocean to start something, to kind of get this industry-wide movement, and I think that that's what it is now. You know, companies can slash their DEI policy. They can take it off their websites. It's not gonna change the fact. Diversity is a fact.

Daveena Saranna [00:24:01]:
That's the world that we live in. Inclusion is a choice, and companies and individuals can either accept that and realise that a diverse workforce and a diverse sort of audience base helps their business, or they cannot get on board with it. I am choosing to stay positive because otherwise I'll worry myself to death and embrace the companies that want to make that change, that want to get on that journey, and you know whether they're at the beginning of that journey or they're basically holding master classes because they're so great. Don't care. Just want to work with you. Just want to learn from you. Male, female, you know, people of colour, not neurodiverse, not like The more the merrier. I'm open to anything, and I'm open to being told that I'm wrong because I want to learn. LinkedIn, like you said, connecting with different people who have different attitudes has been so important.

Daveena Saranna [00:24:52]:
So I'm choosing to stay hopeful. Sometimes I think it is really easy to be overwhelmed and think, God the world is just going to beep. Yeah. Actually Yeah. Yeah.

Liz Allan [00:25:02]:
I get you. I get you.

Daveena Saranna [00:25:04]:
Get yourself in the right room with people who support you, and you won't feel like that. You will just feel relieved, like I'm not on this alone. I'm not carrying Alright. Sometimes I feel like, oh my god, I'm carrying the weight of the world. I'm not. There are other people out there who just need to talk to them to remind myself that that's happening and that that's true, irrespective of my actions and what I'm doing. So big, yes. Sometimes little no, but big yes.

Liz Allan [00:25:29]:
And, actually, there are a lot of businesses out there that want to be inclusive in what they're offering, you know, all of their services or products or whatever their business is. They do want to be, yeah. You know, inclusive, and they're trying their best. You know, in the background, I try not to, I know it might sound naive. I try not to listen to too much news. No.

Daveena Saranna [00:25:50]:
I see.

Liz Allan [00:25:51]:
In some ways, because I find it too depressing. In you know, because all you hear is that negativity, and I try not to hear stuff that goes on over, you know, over the pond, as it were, because because, like you say, I think we are at a tipping point now where we we have enough people who are on the, you know, the the the EDI journey. So, you know, making sure that diversity inclusion is a thing. Yeah. So so hopefully, we just keep moving forward with that.

Daveena Saranna [00:26:23]:
One of the big points that we had on the panel last week, my mum was actually on the panel, which is really funny because people were like That's your mum? What? What? But it was that you don't have to be ploughing in millions of pounds to get started, and you shouldn't wait to get started. Mhmm. Talking to employees and creating a culture can cost nothing. Standing up for what you believe in doesn't cost money, sometimes that's a caveat. You know, listening and learning are all things that can be done for free or at a relatively low cost. Showing your commitment to the people that work for you is massive. Even if you've got the support of five, ten, and 50 people, that's a lot of minds, and that's a lot of work that has gone into that, you know, sort of ecosystem.

Daveena Saranna [00:27:18]:
I think just getting started is the best thing, and just doing what you can do. If that means that you're popping period products that you bought from Sainsbury's in the toilet, excellent work. You're one, you know, one step closer to achieving equality in the workplace. You don't have to offer all these things if you physically cannot afford to be able to think that you're doing a good job. You know, it's like recycling and plastic alternatives. Like if you're trying your best that's and that's all you can do. Crack on. I support that.

Daveena Saranna [00:27:48]:
I'd rather that than you know a big business gives 0.01% of their profits to DI but it makes them look amazing. Like, yes, I'm here for the underdog.

Liz Allan [00:28:00]:
And you're right, and I was just thinking, you know, as long as it isn't, I wrote down so that I, because I said to you before we started recording, sometimes I want to make sure I don't forget something. I think personally, it's organisations and people being willing to learn. Yeah. And I'm willing to and interested in changing the culture in the organisation. And learning is also about so many aspects of humans. We are, when it comes down to it, we're all humans. No matter who we are, what we look like, or what we sound like, you know, it doesn't matter. We need to be under you know, understand it.

Liz Allan [00:28:42]:
And I'm gonna bring this into the conversation as well because you mentioned it slightly earlier on. Both you and I are neurodivergent.

Daveena Saranna [00:28:52]:
Yeah. We are. Yay.

Liz Allan [00:28:56]:
And, actually, it's funny because for quite a while, I wouldn't even talk about it on here because I didn't, I still, I'm not sure whether everybody understands what it is or what it's about. And and and actually part of the willingness to learn, that I'm saying, and changing the culture is acceptance. It's more than acceptance. Acceptance is a very, very kind of, I don't know, it's got a veneer on it, isn't it? I'm talking deep down understanding of everybody, including people who are neurodivergent, you know, because a lot of people don't understand what autism is, they don't understand what ADHD is, you know, and all of the kind of and the spectrum is massive, I said to you beforehand, didn't I? It's like a massive umbrella, and we've got certain people, you know, we've got people who are non-verbal and have kind of intellectual issues. I don't like that phrase either, but they're on the kind of right-hand side of the umbrella, and then we're kind of over here, you know. So it's it's understanding that we're still bringing something into an organization and not just cutting people out because they have, you know, they have, I'm not gonna say it's a condition because it's it's it is but it isn't it's just the way our brains work. Our brains work a bit differently. Sometimes it's really, really powerful, and sometimes it can be absolutely just it helps, it doesn't, you know, it's the burnout side of being neurodivergent that is quite difficult sometimes, you know.

Daveena Saranna [00:30:37]:
Yeah. Absolutely. I think, gosh. So much to unpack.

Liz Allan [00:30:42]:
I know. That was a lot, wasn't it? Yeah. Sorry.

Daveena Saranna [00:30:45]:
I'm there, there's a phrase I've heard that I came across through netball. I play a lot of netball, and I only got into it kind of when I was towards the end of my university days at Warwick, and I hated it when I was at school, and I thought it was stupid. And then I started playing more and more, and I really struggled to learn because I have a slow processing rate. So you know, I'm late to the joke. I'm late in understanding things. You know, you've moved on to the next thing, and I'm still thinking, oh, how does that work? And I remember saying to one of my friends, I just said I don't get it like I can't keep up and it just feels like I have to beg to be included and I remember her saying no you shouldn't a high tide raises all ships And I was like, what does that mean? And she said, well, when you make things easier for one person, you're simultaneously making them easier for everybody, and it doesn't single you out as needing extra help. It puts the onus back on the organisation, the club, the person to do a better job for everybody because it's not just for you. It's for everybody that's joining in.

Daveena Saranna [00:31:49]:
You know, okay I'm I'm dyslexic and I don't know my left from my right. But actually, if you make that a bit clearer visually, more people will understand. And I've I've held that so close to me for like the last eighteen months since she said that to me and everything I do I just think if you're not willing to accommodate me, you don't deserve to work with me because I remember like when I was at school again I was a really slow writer and I remember this one boy said oh we always need one slow person so we can mess about whilst they're doing notes.

Liz Allan [00:32:19]:
Oh nice. Lovely.

Daveena Saranna [00:32:23]:
Oh, that's me, and I just consign myself to being stupid. I was just like our school's not for me. Like, even when I was applying to university, I thought Oh gosh, that's a big stretch, isn't it? And when I applied to work, I remember teachers saying to me Are you sure you don't want to be let down that you don't make it? Oh, nice. I'm the only person from my year who went to Oxford, and I think it wasn't a problem with me. It was a problem with you. You didn't understand me, and you didn't make an effort to. You didn't understand the way that my brain worked, my creativity, the way that I can process so much information if it's delivered to me in the right way. And you know I said to you earlier, Liz, like when I got my diagnosis for ADHD and autism a few years ago, I remember feeling so crushed and thinking about what's wrong with me? I can't believe it.

Daveena Saranna [00:33:09]:
And now I've gotten to a point where I'm really proud that that's me. You know if you don't like me, fine, you don't need to. I'm not for everybody, and that's why I'd rather be who I am and have a smaller circle and be supported than be friends with every single person in the world and not be myself and not be happy, you know, when I put my head on my pillow at the end of the night. Working with, I mean, I've got a great line manager in Gill. She is just the best, but

Liz Allan [00:33:36]:
Jill Noel is a beautiful She

Daveena Saranna [00:33:39]:
He is the greatest photographer I've ever seen. No one can convince me otherwise. She's just been so supportive, you know I didn't need to come in with all these labels, and I've got this and I need that. She was just like This is the way that we'll do things. She explained things, and you know, simply and concisely. I struggle to prioritise things, and she just labels them. This is number one. Work from number one to number five.

Daveena Saranna [00:34:03]:
Okay? I can do that. That makes sense in my head. And for a while, you know, when I have my diagnosis, they said Oh, Davina interrupts and she's really rude and then I thought, god, everyone I've spoken to is probably gonna think I'm really rude, and she never you know, I'll interrupt and say Oh, sorry and she says No, go ahead. And she just lets me get it, get what I've got to say out, and carries on, and I think you don't need to have any special training or you know a degree and this or that or the other. It should just be nice to somebody else. I'm just saying you know what I don't I don't know the way that you work Liz but could you let me know what suits you best? And then I'll go away and think a little bit and figure out how I can get that involved. It's not hard to ask a question, and Google exists. Google is my best Yes.

Daveena Saranna [00:34:48]:
Guess. I don't know something. I'm straight on Google.

Liz Allan [00:34:51]:
Oh my god. And AI. I talk a lot about AI. I talked about it on the last podcast as well, and I think AI has just been amazing. Has

Daveena Saranna [00:35:00]:
it? I'm not, yeah. As an AI person. I'm kind of scared of what's out there, and I do think it reproduces massive bias. So Mhmm. I'm kind of sceptical about using it, but I know that it has loads of amazing uses and can help people all over the world. So it's kind of like I don't know a double-edged sword that you don't know which way you're going to go. But there's nothing wrong with being neurodiverse in the workplace. There's nothing wrong with being different.

Daveena Saranna [00:35:28]:
I've just started to say, now that's the way that I'm wired.

Liz Allan [00:35:31]:
Yeah. Exactly. And you're not going to

Daveena Saranna [00:35:33]:
change it, and neither is anybody else.

Liz Allan [00:35:35]:
No. No. And like I say, it'd be really, really boring if we were all the same, you know? And going back to the school thing, and actually thinking about your diagnosis as well. The school thing and I know kids are still having that. It's like putting a square peg in a round hole and trying to force it in. It's like that goes back to the days of, you know, left-handed people being forced to be right-handed. I mean, come on. That was just mental for a start off, you know.

Liz Allan [00:36:03]:
But but actually this there like I say, there are there are schools that are brilliant. There are schools that are still not because depending on funding and teachers and all that all that kind of stuff.

Daveena Saranna [00:36:16]:
Understanding of the way that it affects women, because you know it's different. If a man, for example, has autism and he's very blunt and he's very forward with what he says, and he interrupts other people. He's a leader. He's Okay. You know, we should be inspired. He's an entrepreneur. He knows how to run a business. I've had similar sort of characteristics and people say, oh, she's a bitch.

Daveena Saranna [00:36:40]:
She's bossy. She's rude. She's self-absorbed. She thinks she knows everything, and I think, well, that's not true. You've just made an assumption about me based on gender stereotypes, and actually, if I were a man, you'd probably like me a lot more. I think just Or

Liz Allan [00:36:56]:
accept you.

Daveena Saranna [00:36:57]:
Yeah. Yeah. There are so many women now who are coming almost late to the party to be diagnosed. I thought I had my diagnosis late at 21 and 24. That's not true at all. People are getting diagnosed between their forties and sixties, and it's so validating to just say it wasn't me. It wasn't. 54.

Liz Allan [00:37:15]:
50 four. I'm now 56. So Yeah. Yeah. Actually and it helps you to forgive yourself for all of the times. I'm going to try not to get emotional saying this as well. But actually all the things, all the times where you thought you know I'm a bit thick, I can't do this, I should be working at 150% rather than just 120. You know, this, that, and the other.

Liz Allan [00:37:39]:
That person said that to me, and it's really affected me. They don't know that it's really affected me, but they don't realise I've got rejection sensitivity, etc., etc., etc. You know, injustice sensitivity, you and I talked about this beforehand. With ADHD, we have these massive emotions. So we've got a thing called executive dysfunction in certain cases, which, well, is a known fact. So our executive function is slightly different, but basically, it means that our emotions go up massively, and we feel, you know, injustice, you know, and look at the sector that we're both working in. The injustice of certain things is just like, oh my god. So if you see somebody or if you know somebody who is on the autism spectrum, whether they're ADHD or whatever, you'll probably see this, you know, but it's about understanding.

Liz Allan [00:38:28]:
It's about being understanding and going back to that alone.

Daveena Saranna [00:38:33]:
Yourself and others as well because I think when I first found out I remember I was doing this assignment at university about research and it was saying that one of the articles I read said that oh you know people with neurodiversity might not be as good at researching because they can't empathize with their their participants. And I thought, god, I must be really bad at research then. I should probably shouldn't be in academia. And then I remember doing that in academia. And then I remember doing the interviews, and I was talking about people's life stories, and somebody cried, and I cried back, and we held hands. And then they opened up so much more, and I opened up so much more. And I remember thinking, no, actually, I think I've got a gift that I've never been through what you've just described, but I can feel that so deeply. It's moved me and then you felt more open and more comfortable because I can resonate with what you're saying.

Daveena Saranna [00:39:18]:
Mhmm. So felt more open and more comfortable because I can resonate with what you're saying. So, actually, we've had a better conversation than we would have had if I had handed you a box of tissues and said they're there. Oh. It's an entirely different conversation and learning that there are things I can do that other people will struggle with has been funny because you know, as I was saying to you earlier like my mum is so shy naturally and my brother, my older brother, people always think I'm the older sibling was painfully shy. I remember when we were kids, he wouldn't answer the house phone because he'd be so terrified, and that was his now six foot seven, but that was the only way I could get him to do anything, is chase him around with the house phone and say Right, you've got to do that.

Liz Allan [00:39:58]:
Oh, listen.

Daveena Saranna [00:39:59]:
I like that it never bothered me, and standing up in front of crowds of thousands of people and talking has never even made me remotely nervous. But making eye contact with someone makes me feel a bit unwell, and then I think, oh god. It's just kind of ebbs and flows I think that sometimes you'll really struggle with things that are just taken for granted and then sometimes people say I could never you know people say to me all the time how do you manage full time work and freelance presenting work and a degree at Oxford and performance netball? And I'm like, I don't know. Doesn't everybody do that?

Liz Allan [00:40:30]:
No. They don't. I didn't know that either. Yeah.

Daveena Saranna [00:40:33]:
And I'm like, oh, well, okay. But I'm just the way that I'm wired is I'm just really determined. And if I think I'm going to do something, come hell or high water, I'm going to do it. Nothing or nobody can stop me from doing that, and you know, people might think, Oh, that's a you know, obsessive. That's just the way that I am, and actually,y it's been great in my working life because I've been able to do so much so quickly at 25 because I'm super proactive. I'll email people. I like your brand. Can I work with you? Can I do this? Can I ask you when most people think, oh, I probably shouldn't say? I will just email anybody.

Daveena Saranna [00:41:09]:
Hi, I like this. Do you want to work together? How about that? And what's that like, and how would that work? And actually, you do get a lot of responses from people who are like, yeah. Fair enough. Okay. Let's get rolling, and you know, people say that comes with age and comes with maturity. I think when you're neurodiverse, you're simultaneously a bit immature about things and super mature about other things, and it's kind of just finding a balance with all of them, which is still a lesson I'm learning. I don't know everything. Don't know anything.

Liz Allan [00:41:39]:
I always say, and I don't know whether I've said this before on the podcast. I always say my brain's a bit like, did you do you remember the film minority report with Tom Cruise? It was a few years ago. You're only a young pop darling, but basically, it's kind of a futuristic it's like futuristic cities. And he's kind of, he's literally got all this information on, and it's not a screen. It's like there. It's just, you know, it's holographic. And he's going like that, and he's pushing that out of the way. And I'm waving my arms around, by the way, to those of you who aren't watching it on YouTube.

Liz Allan [00:42:11]:
So I apologise, but I am waving my arms. I say my brain's like that. It's literally in lots of places at once. So I'm thinking about this. Think about that. Ask my husband, Theresa, and Michele, who I work with. My brain is in multiple places. They're also spicy, by the way.

Liz Allan [00:42:29]:
But, you know, it's all over the place. My hyperfocus is, you know, I will if we talk about going back to being agile, I think my brain in a lot of places, on a lot of occasions, is quite agile, and I'll go, oh, yes, and I'll find something. But then but then it's like it's a bit like pulling on a piece of wool, isn't it? You know, you keep going and going and going, and that's the hyperfocus. You know, we can hyperfocus, but then on the other side, it's kinda like exhaustion. You know, and actually needing to recognise, and I'm doing this more now, trying to recognise that I need some downtime. Yeah. Because otherwise we just keep going.

Daveena Saranna [00:43:11]:
It's the guilt. I keep a notepad by my bed because I can't go to sleep until I've written down everything that's in my brain.

Liz Allan [00:43:18]:
Oh my god. 

Daveena Saranna [00:43:19]:
Or I'll be in a shower, and then I'll be writing on the shower wall. Do that. You know, yeah. I'll be on a run, and then I've got to stop and write down what I'm doing because I've just got so many ideas, and I think you know I'm not very good at doing things sometimes. Like I can start things and not follow through if something isn't interesting to me, I don't want to do it anymore. But I have about a hundred ideas a day, and that is no exaggeration, but I think you know, finding out what the roles are that are good for you. Okay, well, you'd be really good in a strategy role because you can envision what that would look like, but you're probably not as good in an admin role where you've got to do a lot of doing and figuring out where you fit. I think that's sort of the joy that I've had is doing lots of different roles and thinking, okay, well I like that bit and I don't like that, so I kind of want to pick a mix of these things.

Daveena Saranna [00:44:11]:
Then I'd also like to do a bit of that and you know I was saying to you earlier Liz that doing presenting it to me is just I just think it's the funniest thing ever because you know my report said oh Divina is very blunt and she's very monotone and she doesn't have this and she doesn't have that and yet people are paying me to talk about things. And sometimes you you say things and you think I am a comedic God that was really good.

Liz Allan [00:44:35]:
In

Daveena Saranna [00:44:36]:
the audience and be so dead-faced about it. And then you can say things just offhand that you think no. Yeah. I'll just say that, and people are like That was so funny.

Liz Allan [00:44:44]:
That's funny.

Daveena Saranna [00:44:45]:
Oh my god. And I'm thinking what are we what are we laughing? Oh, we're laughing at me. Yeah. What did I say? Yeah. Did I say that out loud? And like, meanwhile, all this is going on behind my head, and then external means yes. And I said I'm working with a brilliant coach at the moment called Rashida. And she I said to her sometimes I feel like I have presented Divina and then I have Divina Divina and sometimes we align and I said sometimes we're just strangers.

Daveena Saranna [00:45:11]:
But Yeah. I agree. When you step on stage and you've got the mic and you're all very you know pair key and ready to go. And then sometimes I log on to my laptop on a day to day basis and I think thank God the world can't see me. This is this is not good.

Liz Allan [00:45:26]:
I know exactly what I was, what you totally get what you're saying, because I'm exactly the same. I was just gonna say, going back to your diagnosis, and this is me and my mentoring head now, that person giving you all of those things that you perceived to be not that nice about you. Remember that they were giving you a diagnosis, so they had to substantiate that. And and and, you know, and actually for peep if there's anybody listening and watching that kind of resonates with what we're talking about. You do go for a diagnosis, you know, don't think that because these people say that, that means what kind of person you are. It actually also means that they've got to put it in there because otherwise, how can they substantiate a diagnosis anyway? You know, so so you are a good person, Divina. You do a brilliant job. You're not monotone at all. You're lovely.

Liz Allan [00:46:24]:
Look at you, God, if you get a chance to watch this, her laugh and smile just light you up, you know, light you up. And you've just got a really lovely personality. People, generally, wouldn't know, probably, that either you or I were on the spectrum. One of my oldest, oldest friends, and I love her to bits, when I told her I had a diagnosis of ADHD, she said, Oh, I'm really sorry about that. And I went, Why are you sorry? There's nothing to be sorry about. But it was because she didn't understand it.

Daveena Saranna [00:46:57]:
A lot of people say to me, Oh, I never would have guessed. Yes. Well, that's what's nearly killed me. So true, and I think what you said about the diagnosis. I was feeling really sorry for myself after I got them, and then I just saw that I needed to change the narrative. I need to change the way that I see that and reposition it in my head because otherwise, I'll just let this crush me. And it's really not that deep is it? There's far more important things in the world to worry about than little old me and changing that was really important but also if like Liz said if you are considering getting a diagnosis only you know yourself and if you feel like gosh this is really hard work or I'm really struggling to keep up go and don't be put off by people who say oh oh I don't think you are. Okay.

Daveena Saranna [00:47:49]:
Well, you don't live inside my head all the time, but I do, and advocating for yourself is one of the hardest things to do when you don't know what you're advocating for. But you can feel you know there's a sort of hint that something's not quite right, follow that and trust yourself because I think a lot of women, one of the one of the many reasons for lots of late diagnosis is that women say, oh well I didn't think that it was that much, you know. Everybody must feel like that, and we always convince ourselves that what we're feeling isn't really as bad as we think it is. Yeah. It probably is. So I just say speak up for yourself as much as possible, and it's not all about chasing a diagnosis. It's literally I do. I did it for academic reasons because I needed support in that sort of environment, and I just want to get to know myself on a deeper level.

Daveena Saranna [00:48:34]:
I think I've definitely done but you can still support yourself. There are loads of great free resources out there that you don't have to have a diagnosis to use. You don't need to be, you know, on a five-year NHS waiting list. If you feel like, you know what?

Liz Allan [00:48:49]:
I think

Daveena Saranna [00:48:49]:
That's probably me. That's more than enough validation. You don't need somebody to tell you that.

Liz Allan [00:48:55]:
And also, please take notes of everybody who says, Oh, everyone's a little bit autistic.

Daveena Saranna [00:49:00]:
Hate wimpy.

Liz Allan [00:49:01]:
They can just bug off. Because no, not everybody. And actually, there are a lot of more lot more neurodivergent people out there than you think because and there was, there's a another podcast, guys, called The Autism Curve, that literally is it's it's only fifteen minutes. There are five episodes, each fifteen minutes long; it's fantastic. And actually, it takes you through what diagnosis looks like, and actually talking to a variety of people who've done research and stuff like that. And we would originally not have probably been as part of that diagnosis, but because they've realised, they won't. We were probably the ones who were just on the edge of it, but they've changed the criteria because they realise now that there are loads of us who were hanging on the cliff edge. Do you know what I mean? But it's, you know, it's not this stuff, it's just there's a lot of information out there, as Davina's saying.

Liz Allan [00:50:05]:
Instagram is a really good place to have a look if you kinda do a search for ADHD or autism. You there, there's a lovely guy that I'll tell you about later, Divina, but I've been listening to a really lovely guy, an American. He's he's he's younger than you and he's so honest and so just open. And actually, I've kind of been quite emotional when I've I've listened to him. Just watch some of this stuff because actually you can learn so much, you know, and I've done that. And you'll realise that there are more spicy people around than

Daveena Saranna [00:50:37]:
More than you think there are. Truth.

Liz Allan [00:50:42]:
Let's go back to what you're doing now anyway. We've kind of gone on our spicy tangent, but I want to finish off by looking at you as a woman working in this sector. What would you like to see happen over the next two or three years or longer term?

Daveena Saranna [00:51:05]:
Hey, that's such a good question. Well, I think I'm seeing it happen already, so I'd like to see more of the same: more women getting into automotive. You know, we had this really great conversation at the Shell event where we said that not every single woman who works in EV needs to be an engineer. It's also about storytelling, connecting with people, gaining trust, and sharing experiences.

Daveena Saranna [00:51:31]:
That's a huge side of EV is confidence and consumer confidence. You don't need to love vehicles. You could love clean tech. You could love the infrastructure behind it. There are so many ways that you could fit into this industry. You know, there's the branding and the media and the comms, and that's super exciting and sexy. You don't need to be a car buff to get into EVs. I'm not a car buff.

Daveena Saranna [00:51:57]:
I just need something to take me from A to B cheaply, sustainably, and you know, hopefully in comfort. So I think there's room for everybody, and I want to see a change in both women and men. Jordan Brompton made this really good point that was brought up in a case study again at the Shell event, where she said it's not just the sort of old boys club that can be harmful. Women can also be harmful to each other and to each other's progress, and I think that's a really big thing that we sort of need to weed out of this. We're doing this for each other. Women are not in competition with each other. We're allies. We're advocates.

Daveena Saranna [00:52:35]:
We're supporters. The the amount of knowledge and just insight that I've had working, you know, through Top Women in EV and even just being a part of the the Women in EV Whatsapp chat, I'm understanding a lot more and some of them aren't tips and tricks that need to be said on a big stage. They're just a word of comfort or Mhmm. You know, a bit of advice that you ask somebody for. So I think more of that. More men getting involved and just saying, you know what? I haven't done as much as I could have. I'm here now, and I'm making a commitment to get my business involved or get my team involved or whatever that might look like. Better late than never.

Daveena Saranna [00:53:12]:
It's never too late to get started. It's never too late to ask questions. For me, that's such a big thing, and then I guess the same for companies. For companies to say, What can we do to support a just transition? So that's what I'm all about, a just transition, and that's not just for EVs and clean tech. That's for everything sustainability-related. How can we make sure that nobody gets left behind

Daveena Saranna [00:53:36]:
And that we are doing things for the good of everybody and not just replicating like these old models, but under sustainable, sort of a sustainable guys. That's where I'd like to see things go. That's a lot to ask in three to five years. But I'm an ambitious person, so maybe it's not. But that's fine.

Daveena Saranna [00:53:54]:
Even a start on that would be fantastic. And I just, yeah. I see Top Women in EV being global which would be fantastic to kind of have these I wouldn't say replicas that's the wrong word but individual communities across the world that can come together and just being more widely accepted for for people to just be having this conversation in the staff room or over their Google chat and it's just like a norm. It's just something that is a fact rather than goodness; they're doing DEI. Can you believe it? It's just you know, it's a given. It's part of positing DEI.

Liz Allan [00:54:31]:
Yeah. I'm gonna ask you one final question. If there's a woman out there who has inspired you massively in the sector recently, who would it be?

Daveena Saranna [00:54:50]:
I would say my mum because she continues to prove to me that change is possible. She's not I mentioned earlier she says she's not a very confident person but she's co founded and ran two separate businesses. She's had children. She runs pretty much the entirety of our household. She is a central force in both sides of my family, and she's now more than ever going out of her comfort zone. She's doing more speaking engagements. She's saying, yeah, I co-founded that, and it was really hard, but I did it. I invested all of my life savings into my business.

Daveena Saranna [00:55:31]:
This is how I did it. I am financially literate and I think you know she always says to herself oh I'm not this and as I've grown up and been in the world of work and we've been in the same industry The way that I see her and the way that other people see her as well is just so nice and I'm proud of her for doing things that she probably wouldn't have done five years ago or ten years ago. And you know, a part of that is a challenge for her, but she's taking on different employees that require her to think differently and to grow. And to say, do you know what? I don't know everything, but I'm going to try to learn and get up to speed and do all these different things. I just think that is like the greatest sign of strength that you could ever have.

Liz Allan [00:56:16]:
You

Daveena Saranna [00:56:16]:
know so many people are intimidated by not being the smartest person in the room not knowing at all and actually she's just taken the approach of I'm gonna learn everything from everyone and give everything my best shot. I I just think like over forty years in business that's pretty pioneering and if I can take just a few morsels shreds of that into my career I think I will be pretty well set.

Liz Allan [00:56:40]:
Do you know I want to give you a round of applause because that was gorgeous? And I really hope your mum challenges it. I really hope you've listened to this because your daughter is just gorgeous.

Daveena Saranna [00:56:49]:
I don't know why I've said that now, because I guarantee she will record that. And every time I say, Oh, I don't like that, she's gonna play this back and see. This is honest, this is gonna be used as evidence against me. I've done myself a disservice.

Liz Allan [00:57:03]:
Well, it's evidence to prove that you are an amazing woman. So, so on that note, I want to say, Divina, thank you. It's been so lovely. We've been across, you know, we've explored, oh my god. We have. We've explored so many topics and like I say, you know, it's it's just it's been lovely and and and do you know what? You've done me a favour by us both being able to talk honestly. I had another couple of episodes, one with Jess Shanahan and one with Kate Tyrrell, in a not-quite-as-strong-as-this, but we did discuss kind of neurodivergence, and this has been lovely to actually be open and honest about it. 

Daveena Saranna [00:57:52]:
This is the best time I've discussed it publicly ever.

Liz Allan [00:57:54]:
You should be so proud of yourself, darling. Thank you. Seriously. And on that note, everybody, you know what I'm gonna say, just share this, whether you're neurodivergent or you just like cars, please, please, just share it, subscribe, do all of the above, and follow us on LinkedIn. We've got our own podcast page, Daveena's Top Women in EV. You know, please subscribe to that page or follow it. And on that note, Divina, thank you. And I want to say thanks to everybody for listening and watching, and I shall see you next time.

Liz Allan [00:58:31]:
Bye.