Episode 145: Liz Allan and Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah - The Fight for Clean Air in the UK

Episode 145: Liz Allan and Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah - the Fight for Clean Air in the UK.

Liz Allan is joined by internationally recognised clean air campaigner Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah for a powerful and emotional episode. After her daughter Ella died at just nine years old from a rare form of asthma, Rosamund became a leading advocate for environmental health and founded the Ella Roberta Foundation to protect others from preventable harm. In this honest and deeply inspiring conversation, Liz and Rosamund explore how invisible pollutants like nitrogen dioxide and particulate matter are impacting our health every day, and why asthma, allergies, and respiratory illness need to be taken far more seriously. Rosamund explains why clean air must be seen as a public health issue, not a political one. She shares her belief in a national awareness campaign led by trusted voices, not politicians, to help people understand the link between pollution and illnesses like asthma, cancer, and even infertility. Her call is simple but powerful: we all have a role to play in pushing for change, and Ella’s Law, legislation that enshrines the right to clean air, must be part of that. 

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah Bio:
Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah is a globally recognised environmental health advocate and the founder of the Ella Roberta Foundation. She became a leading voice in the clean air movement following the tragic death of her daughter, Ella, from severe asthma exacerbated by air pollution. Rosamund’s campaigning has led to landmark legal and public health recognition, including Ella becoming the first person in the world to have air pollution officially recorded as a cause of death. Rosamund is a passionate educator and speaker working to raise awareness of the health impacts of pollution and to push for systemic change through legislation, and public engagement.

Quote of the Episode
“We can be divided over so many other issues. But when it comes to health and the National Health Service, I want us all to be on the same page.”
 — Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah Links:
Ella Roberta Foundation Website: https://www.ellaroberta.org
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rosamund-adoo-kissi-debrah-cbe-18aa5577

Transcript

Liz Allan [00:00:01]:

So on my episode today, I've been trying to get her on for ages. This absolutely stellar woman is Rosamund Addu Kissidebra. She is the most amazing woman I've met and the founder of the Ella Roberta Foundation. She also does work for the World Health Organisation. She's an advocate for hair, health and air quality, and she does so many things. Rosamund, thank you. I'm absolutely honoured to have you on the podcast. Thank you.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:00:38]:

Liz, thank you for having me. At least I don't have to introduce myself. But hello to all your listeners. It's lovely to meet you all.

Liz Allan [00:00:47]:

So I kinda just reminded you. Yeah. So I saw you for the very first time over two years ago at a transport and energy conference, up in I think it was up in Birmingham, and Quentin Willson was interviewing you. And you gave him so much grief. It was hilarious. You were telling him that he'd not connected with you on Twitter or so, or you'd not followed him on Twitter, and it just made me chuckle. But your story was, I think there were so many of us in the room who were in tears because of your story. So I do want to talk about that because this is where your life has come, hasn't it, since kind of losing your daughter, Ellen.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:01:36]:

Two years is a long time. Can you believe we've now got a statue of her?

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:01:43]:

We've now got a statue of Ella in our local park. So two years, it seems like a lifetime of like a lifetime away. But, yeah, I'm looking forward to this conversation. So yeah. So now you told me two years ago. Let's see what I've been up to in the last couple of years since I last saw you.

Liz Allan [00:02:00]:

Yeah. Can we start off by explaining what happened to Ella and why it's so the work that you're doing, besides the fact that you've lost your daughter at such a young age, the work that you're doing is so important. So you're over in Lewisham, aren't you?

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:02:22]:

I am. As everyone knows, I love Lewisham. My story really started. It goes all the way back to 02/2010. Mhmm. I think my life was fairly ordinary up to 02/2010. Although my students might disagree with that because I used to teach the head of year, head of sixth form, and I used to teach psychology. So I thought we had a pretty mundane life, very similar to everybody else. And suddenly, during the October half term, Ella got what, at the time, I thought was a cold.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:02:55]:

And as everyone knows, it turned out to be one of the worst cases of asthma ever recorded in the UK. And to cut a long story short, we never, during her lifetime, found out what the triggers were. So when I say that, by the way, Ella was almost seven. So up until that point, she hadn't had any signs apart from an upper respiratory infection the year before. There were literally no signs. She was really healthy, and people really struggle to believe this. But there was nothing on her GP records. Nothing at all.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:03:34]:

And I went from October half term to thinking she'd got a cold to December of that year, her being in her first coma.

Liz Allan [00:03:44]:

Oh my good god.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:03:45]:

So I really didn't have a lot of time at all, and she didn't even have a diagnosis at that point. And that's what I always have to put it in the context for people to say, why didn't you move? I don't know. You can sell any house in three months. And, anyway, when she first got that cold and they referred her, we were looking, you know, we were looking at, finding out what was actually wrong with her. So moving was not even on the radar. No. And to be really honest as well, in Lewisham, we live pretty close to our hospital, so it would have been a really difficult decision what to do. So I don't think we would have benefited moving somewhere where the hospital would be, like, forty minutes away.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:04:33]:

She literally wouldn't have made it.

Liz Allan [00:04:36]:

Yeah. No.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:04:36]:

So I always have to kinda, you know, when I'm giving myself a really hard time about it. But the problem was we didn't even know what her hair triggers were. So there was no point moving because the Yeah.

Liz Allan [00:04:49]:

You don't

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:04:51]:

know what we

Liz Allan [00:04:51]:

I don't know.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:04:53]:

Well, we now know, don't we? Mhmm. Air pollution. And it would have been fascinating what part of the UK we could have moved to, which would have been safe because there's air pollution everywhere, really. Yeah. So there you are. So I just had to get that bit out there.

Liz Allan [00:05:11]:

No. I'm not so okay. So she had her first coma at the end of that first year.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:05:19]:

December 2010.

Liz Allan [00:05:21]:

And then and then what happened after that?

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:05:24]:

And then afterwards, they tried to get her a diagnosis. Because her asthma was so extreme, they actually didn't think it was asthma. It was that bad. Jesus. They thought it might be cystic fibrosis because she used to have lots of mucus and stuff like that. Yeah. And they tested her for all sorts of things. But it turned out it was just a severe and rare form of asthma.

Liz Allan [00:05:47]:

Oh my goodness. So okay. So there was obviously some kind of downhill spiral after that point in time then with her.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:05:57]:

Yeah. I think when we spoke to Stephen Holgate, who was the expert in Ella's case, what he said was that the air pollution was affecting her, but it hadn't manifested and came out the way it actually had up until then. Because he isn't able to tell me when her thing really, really started. And we didn't know for the first almost seven years what was going on inside her body. We actually do not know, do we? The only time we knew about it was when it actually came out.

Liz Allan [00:06:32]:

Yeah.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:06:32]:

So there are some things about her we would never ever ever know.

Liz Allan [00:06:37]:

No. And when was it that you lost her then, Rosamund?

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:06:42]:

Oh, I lost her in February 2013, so that's been twelve years now. And it's also quite sad that the number of children who have continued to die or have died since her death. There was recently a child mortality report where fifty-four children have died linked to air pollution, from 02/2019 to 2024, and they all died from either asthma or anaphylaxis. But what's it now? All those fifty-four deaths are linked to air pollution. What I can't tell you is whether there were any more deaths that were not linked to air pollution. So the fifty-four I'm talking to you about were all linked to air pollution, which is interesting.

Liz Allan [00:07:31]:

That in itself just makes your mind blow, doesn't it?

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:07:36]:

It is.

Liz Allan [00:07:37]:

So when we are just going back a step, when we say it, we say air pollution. What specifically are we talking about?

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:07:48]:

We're talking, yeah. I think we can talk about nitrogen dioxide. We can talk about particulate matter. I think we can even include ozone air pollution in that. Although, I'm not sure how much ozone air pollution affects kids here. That's more common in places than Australia because Australia is really hot. And I think we can talk about sulfur dioxide as well. And these are things that don't just happen, according to outdoor air.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:08:19]:

They also come indoors, and they have a lot to do with indoor air as well. Although the air inside our house wasn't the actual issue, it was what was outside. But now, yet again, we know more about air pollution, and we know there is outdoor and indoor. And one of the things, the reason why I'm really talking about indoor air, is that the mayor of London is hopefully gonna be putting filtration into London schools very shortly. Hopefully, that will deal with some of the problems of indoor air pollution. But I think there's gonna be a whole education that needs to be had, both about outdoor and indoor air. Indoor air, I've got to be honest, really came on my radar during COVID because we spent so much time indoors.

Liz Allan [00:09:10]:

So

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:09:10]:

I began to be interested about the air we were breathing indoors, and that wasn't much better either.

Liz Allan [00:09:15]:

Oh, god. I mean, I suppose I've driven, so I live in Reading, and I've driven to Lewisham. I was working. I was actually working with a couple of GP practices in Lewisham for a while, doing some improvements. Yeah. I'll tell you about that another time but but you might actually even know them. I remember driving up there from Reading, it's what, 50 miles, but it took me three hours to get up because the traffic is just

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:09:42]:

You're second horrendous. I would have taken the train much

Liz Allan [00:09:46]:

Oh, it was easier said than done. There was a lot of stuff I had to take with me. So it's not something you'd log on a train and back. But, yes, you're right. And, actually, from Reading, it was a little bit more complicated. But looking at what you're talking about here when we're talking about nitrogen dioxide, sulfur dioxide, and p m so p m 2.5, so particulate matter. We are specifically talking about pollution from transport, aren't we?

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:10:15]:

Transport, wood burning, construction, I mean, ammonia even, because I don't want people to think if they live in the countryside, then air pollution doesn't apply to them. I've got to be very honest about that. Although we do focus on urban areas, please don't feel if you live in the countryside, it doesn't apply to you as well. And I try not to exclude anyone from my conversation. It's very inclusive because asthma is all over. It's one of the main reasons why children in the United Kingdom will miss school due to asthma. So it is that common. For a period, it had competition from COVID.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:11:05]:

I do agree. But now I think we're back on the asthma trail, and we have a really bad asthma rate in the UK compared to, let's say, Scandinavian countries. Yeah. And I don't want people to think of asthma as just a kinda little kinda thing. Asthma is a chronic illness, by the way, and there is no cure. So I want people to take asthma very seriously. I think part of the problem is that it's so common we don't take it seriously enough, and that might be one of the reasons why children continue to die from it. So, for example, right now, the sun's out.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:11:43]:

It's fantastic. However, we've got very high pollen counts right now. And one of the problems is, again, hay fever. We we we don't I don't know about us, you know, as a nation. Again, we don't take it very seriously. But having uncontrolled hay fever can trigger asthma, so I have to take this bit of our conversation incredibly seriously. Yeah. So if your child has a lot of symptoms of hay fever, please go to your pharmacist and try and get it under control.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:12:14]:

And it's very debilitating. I've got to say that. But, again, people I don't know. We just don't take it seriously. You know?

Liz Allan [00:12:22]:

No. And do you know what? Sometimes I think this is to do with a lack of understanding of, like you say, what asthma is and what hay fever can trigger in people. I have hay fever. My son started with hay fever, Oh, I think it was actually last year or the year before and he's 19. So I was about that age when I started kind of getting sort of I kind of had dust allergies and things like that. That kind of my immune system was a bit chronic at the time. And I did actually have to have an inhaler for a little while, but it seemed to kinda clear up. Not quite sure why. But reading is very polluted.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:13:00]:

I just say the most common form of halogen is dust mites and cockroaches, just so you know. I just thought I should just put that out there.

Liz Allan [00:13:10]:

Dust mites, possibly? I'm not quite sure in Reading we have cockroaches, but

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:13:14]:

I'm just saying. Yeah. I

Liz Allan [00:13:15]:

know. I know. Case.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:13:17]:

No. I have to like what I say, I have to give the facts. Spits and cockroaches are the most common forms of allergens. There are loads of allergens, as you know, but those are the most common forms.

Liz Allan [00:13:30]:

Yeah. I mean, I do get quite severe allergies, reactions to insect bites and things like that. I come up on the cows and stuff like that. So, yeah, I I I totally get you. And I'm celiac as well. So that's the

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:13:45]:

Are you?

Liz Allan [00:13:45]:

Yeah. That's the other thing. I only took them a long, long time to actually work that out. So, you know, but

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:13:52]:

But by the way, can I just say

Liz Allan [00:13:54]:

Oh, shit?

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:13:55]:

This isn't like a moan. A third of the nation, about twenty million people, have allergies. So this is really, really common. So, whoever comes across this, you are not on your own. So about twenty million people now, which is an awful lot. And that's why I want everyone to take this seriously.

Liz Allan [00:14:14]:

Because a lot of people who have hay fever and asthma and things like that will also have another condition as well, won't they?

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:14:25]:

Very much. And that's why anaphylaxis or something like that? So yeah.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:14:30]:

And that's why we should take it, very seriously. So people who have food allergies, they also have other other things as well. Or if you're like me and my children, we're severely allergic to cats.

Liz Allan [00:14:45]:

Yeah. Do you know? It's I who have the animal dander, and I have problems with it as well. On certain dogs, not all dogs, but yeah, I kinda do, I have problems with that.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:14:59]:

And I really appreciate people who try and hoover if we're, like, coming around. But I think one of the issues is, like, when you go into a classroom and you'll be 30 other children, if people there have cats, what people don't realize is that it can actually stick to people's clothes.

Liz Allan [00:15:16]:

Yeah. It's the danger or the fur, isn't it? It's where you know, I mean, dander is just kinda like, it's not like a pheromone or something. I can't remember what you call it, but it does stick to your clothes. And if it's the same if somebody has peanuts, for example, on an aeroplane and somebody with anaphylaxis, probably because of the air conditioning systems, it will kind of pull it in. Oh, Rosamund, I've lost your video. There we go. Okay. So I think it's got they are

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:15:44]:

All by the way, what we're talking about is airborne halogens. That's what and I think there can be a lack of understanding about it. And I want people to take it seriously. Luckily, most of the time, the issues are resolved. But as we know, sometimes it can be fatal.

Liz Allan [00:16:04]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:16:05]:

And that's why. And I just think that something that 20,000,000 people have, we should be able to openly talk about it. That's my, that's how I feel about it. And I don't want anyone to feel embarrassed or shy, or I mean, twenty million. You are one of twenty million people

Liz Allan [00:16:25]:

A lot.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:16:26]:

Who has a halogen. It could be food. It could be dust. It could be pollen. It could be so that you are not on your own.

Liz Allan [00:16:34]:

Mhmm. Exactly. And, you know, there are lots of cases. I actually used to do my form in my previous life, I used to give allergy awareness training to catering companies. So so yeah. So when the first allergen laws were released a number of years ago, I kinda did allergy awareness training because I, myself, it's not as if my son is also coeliac. And it's not as if it's not as if we are going to, it's not fatal for us. But, peep, they, you know, they need the catering, organisations needed to understand that anybody with anaphylaxis, that would be the case.

Liz Allan [00:17:14]:

And that has been the case, you know. And there are a number of court cases that have actually happened since then due to the allergen laws not being adhered to. But listen, let's go back and talk about what you mean, god, I can't even imagine. I don't even want to imagine, really, what you would have had to go through after losing Ella. But when did you decide to start? What was it that made you start, kind of, you've got, now got Ella's Law, haven't we? And we've got No.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:17:51]:

We don't have Ella's Law yet. We're still

Liz Allan [00:17:53]:

But okay. Okay. So we're you're you're pushing I

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:17:56]:

I actually didn't decide or make a decision. When Ella was alive, we were trying to find out what her triggers were, when she wasn't. And it just continued. And although she wasn't physically here, I just felt I wanted to continue on that journey. So I never said, Oh, I'm gonna find out. No. We were always looking for what her triggers were when she was alive. So, no, there wasn't that moment where I suddenly decided that, no.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:18:25]:

We were, that's why we were doing all these tests when she was alive, and it was just when she died. And we've got research coming out with Oxford University at some point. We've used her DNA with the twins to try and resolve some questions even now. So the research is ongoing. I never made a decision. But I have to confess, I was ultimately looking to find out what Ella's triggers were, and then it turned into this whole thing, if you see what I mean. So I'm not gonna pretend that I started off by looking at air pollution. Air pollution wasn't even part of the conversation when air pollution was alive.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:19:03]:

It was after the first inquiries, and they said her triggers were to do with something in the air. And someone wrote to me to have a look at air pollution, and then that opened. So if you look at my early work, all the stuff I was focused on was asthma, and that's the reason. And later on, when air pollution came into it, I then developed asthma and air pollution. Otherwise, someone's gonna look at it and go, you never mentioned air pollution in the beginning. No. Because we actually didn't know. Hey.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:19:33]:

You've got to be truthful with people. We actually didn't know.

Liz Allan [00:19:36]:

Yeah. So so okay. Am I right in thinking that she's the first person to have air pollution on her death certificate, but it wouldn't have been that at the time, would it? Because if you're saying that they didn't know that at the time Yeah.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:19:49]:

Nobody in the world, as far as I know, has air pollution on their death certificate apart from that. So it's not just in the UK. It's worldwide. What's really crazy is, WHO figures show that seven to eight million people die from air pollution every year, annually. And, yeah, Ella remains the only person to have it on her death certificate. So it's it's it's a bit odd, but I will leave your listeners to answer that question, why they think that might be.

Liz Allan [00:20:21]:

But, I mean, if we look at, like, you were talking about lockdown, COVID, you know, back in 2020, and, you know, we didn't have cars on the road. We didn't have trucks on the road. There weren't planes flying. Blah blah. We still had pollen, you know? So there were those kinds of airborne allergens and things like that. But am I right there thinking that the levels of asthma in people who died from asthmatic events reduced during lockdown?

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:20:48]:

It did. But what didn't go down during the lockdown was particulate matter. What went down was nitrogen dioxide.

Liz Allan [00:20:56]:

So the particulate matter was still high then.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:21:00]:

Yeah.

Liz Allan [00:21:00]:

Even though cars were not even cars, even right. Okay. My goodness. So that particulate matter was coming from people. Were we still talking outdoors or indoors? Outdoor.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:21:13]:

Outdoor. I wouldn't know anything about the indoors.

Liz Allan [00:21:15]:

No.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:21:16]:

But outdoors, I'm talking about yeah. So if you look at it, nitrogen dioxide really dove down, but PM remained constant.

Liz Allan [00:21:26]:

So what would that have come from then? Because I suppose, you know, this is my naivety as well, not understanding where else PM's

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:21:34]:

I mean, crossroads. Going on, wasn't it, during Yeah.

Liz Allan [00:21:38]:

Yeah. I suppose.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:21:39]:

I don't think you will ever get pollution or pollutants down to zero. Not really. I don't think that's feasible. But yeah. So the PM remained constant during the lockdown. But we know that it was the nitrogen dioxide that was really triggering lots of young people. So when that was removed, yeah. So the prediction we thought was that many asthmatics would end up going to the hospital during COVID.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:22:07]:

That never happens. No.

Liz Allan [00:22:09]:

Didn't it? Okay.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:22:11]:

No. They were actually better during COVID.

Liz Allan [00:22:15]:

Because the skies were cleaner and, you know, I mean, I just the roads were clearer and the skies were cleaner and all that lot. And it's still, I understand why the government at the time wanted people to go back to work, you know, but we just feel it feels like we knew we kind of had that period of two years, didn't we? I mean I know it wasn't always we weren't always in lockdown and towards the end it was kind of, you know, changing. But we had a period where not everybody enjoyed it, but actually seeing less traffic on the road, actually having better health, you know, kind of health problems or not some of the health problems reducing and things like that. And and and now you've kind of got

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:23:02]:

I think some of the downside to that time, though, was that there weren't people diagnosed with asthma either. People weren't going into the hospital. And I assume now they've I. I don't know whether they've caught up. I better not say that because I might get in trouble with some doctors. But there was an underdiagnosis of asthma during lockdown.

Liz Allan [00:23:23]:

Because I'm I mean, I suppose there were so many people with COVID, weren't there? You know? And all the hot pop-up hospitals. Like, they had the hospital at the Excel for a bit, didn't they? And things like that. So I suppose, they had so much on their plate. And I'm not like I know, like I said to you, I have been working with GP practices, and they're still trying to manage it now. And they're under masses of pressure, and they're not allowed to close their lists. So they've got to keep taking people on.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:23:54]:

Okay. Even

Liz Allan [00:23:56]:

if yeah. Even if they've got, like, little, they're based out of little tiny houses with only so many rooms. They've still got to keep their lists open, which is just another story entirely. But

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:24:08]:

Yeah. Let's not go there.

Liz Allan [00:24:10]:

No. Let's not. There's but there's so much to talk about here, honestly. If we talk about l the Ella Roberta Foundation Mhmm. When did you start?

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:24:22]:

That was launched on what would have been her tenth birthday. And we launched it in her primary school. And we had the Lewisham NHS choir. They came to sing on the day. I remember it, like, yesterday. It is what I can imagine. It was emotional, and it was great. And we also had Melbourne football there because Ella loved their football.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:24:44]:

Oh. And then. She would have signed for Millwall. So they came as well. And it's amazing to think it is that long ago now, but that was in the very beginning. But we've maintained our relationship with the hospital. I was there recently, giving them some packs for children who come into A&E who are neurodivergen,t to give them things to do whilst they are waiting. Because, yeah, A and E can be quiet, as you know, Boring. The hours of life. So yeah.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:25:21]:

That's from

Liz Allan [00:25:21]:

a neurodivergent person. Yeah. Not the most fun place to be. Yeah.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:25:26]:

So I was there recently, and we were talking about that. But yeah. So it's a long time ago now, and we never envisaged it would turn into what it's turned into now. Oh, god. We're still really tiny, mind you. It's me. I have my assistant, the lovely Anna, and Lou, who does my comms two days a week, and that's it, by the way. So that might explain more why you took so long to get to me because of the kind of workload.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:25:54]:

But we've purposely let well, I purposely left it being that small because I think it's just something I feel like if you have more staff, then you have to manage them, and then you don't get to do work like this. So I like it being small. I feel we are small but effective.

Liz Allan [00:26:15]:

Exactly. And that's and that's the main thing. And you're agile as well. So, you know, the work that you're doing is just amazing. So can I just ask you, okay, if you and I know you've had conversations because when we spoke because we spoke for ages, didn't we, on on the phone a few weeks back And you and you've met a lot of, a lot of people in government, foreign secretary, you've you've met Chris, you know, you've spoken to Chris Whitty? There's lots of people that you've spoken to. Mhmm. In an ideal world, what do the government need to be doing and the health staff?

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:26:55]:

That's really easy. I think there needs to be a public health campaign about both indoor and outdoor air. And I think they need to explain to the public the link between air pollution and non-communicable diseases. And what I mean by that is air pollution affects people, right from pregnancy. So when, you know, they found PM in the placenta, and they found it all the way up to the other end of the Alzheimer's patient's brain. There's a link between air pollution and lung cancer, breast cancer, and infertility. So it's a much bigger thing. And I think it needs to be owned by the Department of Health, and there needs to be a public health campaign.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:27:40]:

It's not scaring anyone. It's about giving them information. Obviously, everyone knows about respiratory and asthma, but it's a lot wider. Even COVID in areas of high air pollution, people got COVID more severely. So there's a lot to be done about it. And I I I think that the government needs to clean up the air. I can't really see how our waiting list will dramatically drop unless you clean up the air because I see people as continuously getting ill. I think you could have more doctors.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:28:14]:

You can have more nurses. But I think the health secretary needs to adopt a preventative approach rather than early diagnosis, maybe to look at people not getting ill in the first place. That's just my opinion. But I'm sure the CMO agrees with me.

Liz Allan [00:28:35]:

Well, hopefully. Because I was just thinking then, all of this, you know, anybody who has to go to hospital, anybody who has to stay in hospital or whatever, that is a cost to the NHS, isn't it? That that

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:28:50]:

is the case

Liz Allan [00:28:50]:

That's the cost and we're talking about millions. If we look at everybody, like, you've, you know, you've kind of said the number of people that have got, you know, twenty million people with allergies, for example, and if they're asthma related, you know, or What more will be?

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:29:04]:

Some will.

Liz Allan [00:29:05]:

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Some of them are asthma related, for example, any of any of this if you I just see this as a if you do a if you provide a public health campaign that's contouring off the cost to the NHS because you're making people aware.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:29:24]:

Who do you think should do the public health campaign?

Liz Allan [00:29:29]:

I've seen a really, really good video that is a GP nobody ever gets to see. It's a GP video, and it's got little kids on it talking about GP practices. And it's kind of there's a little girl and she's so cute and she talks about the physiotherapist who goes on his bendy bike and stuff like that. And it's just one of those foldable bikes. I think we need people with lived experience. Okay. You've gotta have lived experience, but you've also gotta have the other side. You've gotta have people whom the public trusts.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:30:06]:

Me and you talked about it. So not so, not politicians then. Okay? God.

Liz Allan [00:30:09]:

No. No. Because that's never gonna happen. No. Do you imagine? I'm not even gonna say because I nearly said something then, but I can you can you imagine now? No. No. I wasn't gonna swear. I wasn't gonna swear, but I was just thinking there was somebody I was thinking.

Liz Allan [00:30:23]:

Can you imagine the man from the previous with the one with white hair? Nobody would go for it. Anyway, Seriously. No. Because we talked about this before, and I know somebody who runs another podcast, Gary Comfort of EDMUSINGS. Uh-huh. He, well, he's really wanting a similar thing, but for a different reason. So he wants a public health cam, he wants a public health kinda health campaign sort of, but slightly different on electric vehicles to help people to understand the  reduction in nitrous, you know, nitrous oxide,e and

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:31:00]:

And let's not plug things in for Quentin now. Quintin has no.

Liz Allan [00:31:04]:

No. No. This isn't Quentin. This is Gary. This is Gary who's who's different. But we were talking about people like Jodie Whittaker, Olivia Colman, people who the public trusts. I'm not just talking about influencers.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:31:19]:

Do you think Olivia Colman would be interested? She's one of my favourites.

Liz Allan [00:31:23]:

I know that's why I wrote her down. When we spoke, we spoke over the phone for such a long time, and I've got so many notes for those of you watching. These are my notes from when I was talking to Rosalind before. Seriously. I've just

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:31:35]:

She is so good and she's so cool. And I

Liz Allan [00:31:39]:

absolutely got if you've got Olivia Colman introducing, even just introducing or having a conversation with somebody about their lived experience, because lived experience is the main thing.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:31:51]:

Okay. You

Liz Allan [00:31:51]:

know, isn't it? I think. But it's also getting people to understand what these things are and what they're doing to people, and even simple things like when you're parked outside of school, don't leave your engine on because you've got little people going past you.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:32:09]:

That is just terrible. That is. Because the pollution in that area goes up by 50%. I don't even get that. Yeah. I I don't understand people that do that. And also idling is against the law. But I think that we need to think about other people and not just think about ourselves.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:32:28]:

Because, obviously, the person in the car is not thinking about the people walking on the street, and that's really, really selfish. And that's not cool. That's not cool at all.

Liz Allan [00:32:36]:

Exactly. But in some cases, Knox is coming through into your car, isn't it? In some cases

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:32:42]:

You never sell that to people. No.

Liz Allan [00:32:44]:

No. You couldn't.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:32:45]:

People don't wanna listen. So let's focus on the people they're poisoning outside, then.

Liz Allan [00:32:50]:

Exactly. So even though I always talk about it this way, Rosemary, that's that, I'm from Halifax in West Yorkshire originally. And I remember my mom years ago when I first moved down here in '95, she came down. They came down to visit, saying, Oh, there aren't very many chimneys down here, are there?

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:33:10]:

What's that?

Liz Allan [00:33:12]:

Chimneys. You know, as in, you know, we had lots of woollen mills and lots of mills.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:33:18]:

They can

Liz Allan [00:33:18]:

And they were sorry. I'd yeah. Sorry. It was buildings that were, you know, kind of working in industry, manufacturing, that were spewing out smoke into the atmosphere. But, you know, and they were kind of closed down really, weren't they? Because, actually, people could see that crap coming out of the chimneys. But, actually, and I've said this loads of times before on this podcast, people can't necessarily see what's coming out of

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:33:47]:

Yeah. Oh, oh, you know, an exposed place. It's really weird when people say things to me like, oh, the air pollution isn't like how it used to be. It was so much worse back in the day. And I'm like, well, the problem with it is it's invisible. Just because something's things are visible doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Otherwise, why are there all these diseases linked to air pollution? That's my concern, the invisibility of it. And people think that because we can't see it, it is not a problem anymore.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:34:19]:

Yeah.

Liz Allan [00:34:19]:

But you can smell it. Most people you know, like a truck goes past you and it spews out, and you can smell it. I I I've a really strong sense of taste and smell, so I can taste it as well. You know? When you're going past and I've gone past cars or whatever. You know? They're if they're in a queue or whatever. And I've held my breath, gone, you know, just to try and kind of peg it past the car. But it's trying to get people to understand this, isn't it? And I know that that's what

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:34:48]:

You're on. I think the biggest take I want people to take from this podcast is I see air pollution as a health issue. I think that's my biggest message. I don't really get caught up in all the kinds of net-zero or the kinds of arguments that are going on. I just want people to think about their health. And I know someone will always say to me, Hi, Rosalind. But, you know, people have to work. But what I do realise is that if you're really ill, you can't actually work.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:35:16]:

You know, let's just say you've got to get chemo. You won't be at work. You'd be in the hospital. So that's what I talk about. This is a real public health crisis that I'm talking about. And it's not scaring people because people who will be listening to this have all sorts of illnesses, and they know exactly what I'm talking about. And they know how much this impacts their day-to-day lives. You got asked for time off.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:35:41]:

Look, there are so many people who actually work with illnesses. That's not what I'm talking about. The fact that they've got to go to a senior boss, get time off for this, for that, all sorts of stuff. That's what I'm talking about. And we do live longer, but we seem to be living with all these illnesses now. Conditioning.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:35:59]:

And that's my concern. So for me, this is a real health issue and a public health crisis, and that's why I went to see the health secretary about that. But I don't think it's something he can solve by himself. I think the government needs to speak to the transport secretary, and he needs to speak to the environment secretary. And I think I would even include the educational secretary involved, and even housing. I think all of them need to work together. I don't think this problem can be solved just by one person. That's my opinion.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:36:33]:

Mhmm. I think they all need to work together. I think, for example, Andrea Reina's brief is housing, but I think it it it I think it matters the type of housing she's gonna be building. Like, ventilation. See, it's all part and parcel of it. But, yeah, let's wait and see. So that's why it brings Ella's Law into it. But I would love a situation where they would all get together and work with each other for the health of the nation.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:37:06]:

That's my ultimate dream, but let's wait and see. I still live in hope.

Liz Allan [00:37:11]:

So go on. Can you give us a bit of an idea about the feedback you got from the health secretary when you

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:37:18]:

When you say, "Oh, he doesn't disagree with me. He actually thought I was making very strong points, and Sir Chris Whitty was at that meeting. He is doing a ten year plan as everyone knows, and let's see whether what I have raised with him, whether that fits into his ten year plan. Oh, he was very welcoming and very open to what I would say. But he knows. He knows what I'm talking about, he knows what I'm talking about. He can do his best to bring the waiting list down, but what he can't do is stop people from guessing ill. So if cleaning up the air means fewer people will get ill, it's a win-win for him and for Rachel Reeves as well, because she must spend so much on you know, apparently, two point three million people are disabled.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:38:09]:

I don't know what kind of disability they have, but that's where we are. I think he yeah. I found him very open. He was willing to listen, and he knows this is also an issue of health inequality because depending on where you live as well, there is when it comes to life expectancy in some areas, the gap is as wide as ten years. So he needs to do something about that. But I don't think this is a one person job. This is you know? And I even say that doctors, medics, everyone in health care needs to talk out about this issue. Let's wait and see.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:38:47]:

I think what we need to decide on is what type of public health campaign is going to help. But I do think doctors need to play quite an important role in this. And I feel they need to treat air pollution very similarly to how they took on tobacco years ago. And that's what I think. No one disagreed yet. So let's just wait and see and see what happens. But I think anybody who wants to come into government, this needs to be something that they are prepared to tackle, and they need to come up with ideas on how to solve it. Yeah.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:39:23]:

So let's wait and see.

Liz Allan [00:39:25]:

I agree with everything you're saying, honestly. And, like you said about cigarettes, and I am an ex-smoker from a long, long, long, long time ago. But those campaigns of, you know, stopping people from wanting to smoke. People still do, and then you've got the whole vaping thing and everything, but I, you know, that's something that's really important to get people to recognise. And I also think, oh god, this is massive, really. And I know you, if we're looking at net zero, you're not that kind of No. Focus as such. But if we're talking about particulate matter and everything else, that's down to pollution.

Liz Allan [00:40:13]:

We're talking,g we're bringing oil and gas into this as well, aren't we?

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:40:16]:

Yeah. I mean, you won't be surprised that I have spoken to Ed Miliband. And when it comes to air pollution, he's a very well learned man. He knows exactly what I'm talking about. And all I say to him is when he's out there, obviously, talking about his net-zero thing, I need him to talk about air pollution as well. And as people will realise, even the foreign secretary, David Lammy, has been talking about air pollution and climate change. So but I think rather than just having one on one conversations and stuff like that, I think jointly, all of that, we need to notify them, not asking them to forefront the campaign, but I think they need to agree with me that the time has come now to have a public health campaign. And doctors will agree with me as well.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:41:05]:

I don't understand what the holdup is. So maybe someone can tell us what the holdup is. Because every day, more people become ill. So I don't really understand that, but I don't run the government. So yeah.

Liz Allan [00:41:18]:

And we're lucky that we don't, really. I don't think I'd want to somehow. But I was gonna say either way, if there needs to be something that says, did you know that these things make you ill?

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:41:32]:

Yeah. I think air pollution, both indoor and outdoor, needs to be monitored. Mhmm. And I'm not saying this. This was what the coroner said. And, also, there's no point in people monitoring it and making it complicated. He said, the coroner has already said this, almost five years ago now, that they need to make the public aware. And I don't think I see any difference between indoor and outdoor.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:41:56]:

Both need to be monitored, and both need to be explained to the public. Look, I think the number of people suddenly say, oh, I've suddenly got stage four cancer, and they didn't know about it. I have my suspicions, but I can't prove anything just yet. So, because I can't prove anything, the only thing I can talk to people about is cleaning up the air. And maybe some of those cases may not happen, but who knows?

Liz Allan [00:42:26]:

Yeah. I've got a friend who's been diagnosed with stage four.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:42:31]:

And I'm talking about by the way, I'm talking about people who have never smoked before. I just need to be absolutely clear on that. So I'm not sitting here naively talking about people who smoked for years. I'm talking about people who don't smoke. Because in India, what's happened there now is that fifteen years ago, lung cancer was mainly amongst men who used to smoke. And in the last ten to fifteen years, it's amongst women who don't smoke. So do you see the change that's happened?

Liz Allan [00:43:00]:

Yeah. Did they live with people who smoke, though, I suppose, is the question because it's kinda that passive passive smoking.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:43:07]:

No. No. Right. Doctor Kumar told me a lot of his patients now are women who don't smoke, and they've got lung cancer. I'm sure he would have said Yeah.

Liz Allan [00:43:19]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:43:19]:

The people, because that would yeah. Anyway, let's not dwell on that too much.

Liz Allan [00:43:26]:

No. I get you. I get you. But, I mean, this is, you know, this is really important stuff to get the message out there. And I I was going to talk to you as well about the fact that so you I know you don't travel too much but you went to No.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:43:39]:

I don't.

Liz Allan [00:43:40]:

You went to Columbia, didn't you, for an air quality conference? Can you give us a little bit of your thoughts because Ella's message about Ella, should I say, has travelled the world.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:43:54]:

I know. It was so amazing. Because of COVID, when we won the inquest, we didn't really see how much it really impacted us. But it was everywhere in every country. But what was really sad was that I had mixed feelings about Colombia. It's about the lack of action worldwide. In lots of countries, air pollution isn't even monitored. So, how would people know what they were breathing? So I came back with a very heavy heart.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:44:21]:

On the one hand, I was very pleased that Ella's message had gotten far and wide, but I thought, oh god, a lot more needs to be done. And governments everywhere know about air pollution. I don't think there is any government in the world that doesn't know about air pollution. What people can let you know, and then you can tell me, they all know about it, and they know they all know about the impact on health. And I'm really interested why they do so little about it.

Liz Allan [00:44:47]:

So when I've interviewed, I think I might have mentioned this to you on the phone before, but I've interviewed Sukky Choong, who works for the SMMT, the Society of Motor Manufacturers. And I've forgotten the t. Could be technicians cut, sorry if I got that, I know I've got that wrong. But she was previously an air quality and air pollution officer for, I think, maybe one with. So as you know, there are even people in councils that are doing their best to try and kind of push this forward. But like you say, it's gotta be a concerted effort from many sides. And in some ways, it feels like the private sector's gotta be involved as well. It can't just be the government.

Liz Allan [00:45:33]:

You've gotta have we've gotta buy in from people who are invested in this. And, actually, if you think about a workforce, say you've got, like, a big corporation with 5,000 people and ten percent of their workforce go off sick every year for a period of time, that is impacting them. You know?

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:45:54]:

You've got to pick up where when your colleagues are not there, then they're not gonna employ someone else, are they? You've just got to pick up on the, you've got to pick up the burden there. But, yeah, let's be positive about it because there are many solutions to this. Mhmm. And there are lots of people with skin in the game. We just have to convince our politicians because they think people don't care about this. So that's what I will say to people listening to this podcast that when you next write to your MP about air pollution, mention Ella's Law because Ella's Law is all about our human right to breathe clean air. But please let the politicians know that you care about your health, and therefore, you care about air pollution. Because unless we make a big fuss about this, I feel they're not going to do much about it, and that's where I am with them, really.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:46:46]:

But I want everyone, and that's why maybe there needs to be a public health campaign so people could suddenly go, oh, this actually affects me as well. I think we need to make a whole fuss about it. Yeah. It's amazing. See, look at what's happened in the last twenty four hours when people fell at the last election, which was really interesting. I'm not sure why the migration thing is on everyone's tongue. I'm sure they said the number one reason why people voted the way they did was because of the cut impoliteness thing. But, anyway, we won't go on.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:47:22]:

But, yeah, let everyone know that this is something that you care about, and there needs to be and I'll continue to push for a health campaign. But I think if people are more vocal about it and they tell politicians they care about it. If you said to a politician, I'm not gonna vote for you unless you do something about air pollution, They actually would.

Liz Allan [00:47:44]:

Yeah. But you've gotta be a lot of you to act for them to take notice if you're just one person. But, again, it's that concern.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:47:50]:

No. Because London is in London, it became an issue during the mayoral election, and that's why the mayor said something about it. So there is evidence already there. So we know. And for Londoners, it has been in the top three for the last few mayoral elections. And I don't think Londoners are unique in caring about air pollution. No.

Liz Allan [00:48:15]:

No? I mean, if you look at how many low-emission zones there are around the country now.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:48:20]:

You know?

Liz Allan [00:48:21]:

You're driving into an area where there's a high proportion of vehicles driving in at one point in time.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:48:29]:

Yeah. But also yeah. I think, Liz, I think also we can't have a go at the general population. People need alternatives to take. I met Joanna yesterday. She was on a bus, and I was getting on a bus to get to Lewisham, the DLR. And I will say to her, oh, when is the bus due? Because I couldn't find it on my app. And what has happened to her is that she'd been standing there, and the bus before literally hadn't shown up, and she was late. She was late for work.

Liz Allan [00:49:00]:

Oh, no.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:49:01]:

So for her. Can you imagine getting to work and when your employer says, Why are you late? You've gotta say the bus didn't show up. I felt so bad for her, by the way. So I think public transport is key, and I think when you come out of London, the public transport is atrocious. And we can't have a go at people in cars until they need to get around. Look. People need to go shopping. People need to get to jobs.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:49:29]:

People need to do something, and they need to fix the public transport system. I know Andy Burnham has taken over the buses in Manchester now. So hopefully, they're gonna see an improvement there. But I think some of the solutions are a lot higher up, And that is governments and public transport, because how are people going to get to work? You know, if you live where you live, the bus comes once every hour. What can I say? So I don't want this to be a London-centric thing. We are lucky that in some parts of London, not everywhere, buses' tubes are very frequent. Where I live, we don't have the underground. And on some weekends, my local train station isn't closed.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:50:15]:

It's not working. So you see, suddenly, you realise what it's like for people out of London all the time.

Liz Allan [00:50:22]:

That's probably where, yeah. That's probably where I would have got into when I was coming from Reading, and I think that's probably the reason why I decided to kind of drive up there. So I was one of the contributors at the time because I wasn't driving an EV and, you know, so I I didn't realise how bad the you know, you could just see that

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:50:44]:

Yeah. So I'm not really about blaming people. No. I think I think I will for instance, when I look at Europe, the incentives that they give them to use public transport, I do not see that here. So if people really stop they should stop trying to make people's life difficult for them and improve public transport. And not everyone will take it, but more people will. And especially, lowly paid people. Buses are crucial.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:51:14]:

People go, why are you always thinking about buses? But buses are crucial to people's lives. Not everyone can afford trains.

Liz Allan [00:51:21]:

No. I've oh my god. Trains are so expensive. You know? I've got friends who wanted to come down from up north recently, and they were it was looking at, like, £300

iz Allan [00:51:32]:

Oh, I know. They have to come down. And it's just it's not it's not affordable, is it? So, how do I make these things affordable?

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:51:41]:

It's cheaper to drive in some cases, isn't it? So it's not that people don't care. People care an awful lot. Let's start by doing a public health campaign, and let's get on with that. And let's see what the health secretary says. I hope someone brings his attention to this podcast, but I think we really, really need one desperately

Liz Allan [00:52:05]:

Yeah.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:52:05]:

To explain to people what we're talking about.

Liz Allan [00:52:09]:

Because like you say, people just go about their own little lives, don't they, not kind of realising that what they're doing, whether they're idling somewhere or whatever, whether it, you know, has a knock-on effect on someone else's health. But like you say, it's gotta be affordable. It's gotta be, you know, any old you've gotta provide alternatives. People can't just be buying EVs. I get it. We need to have active, active travel and, kind of, fewer cars on the road and more ability to actually be able to get around and, you know, things like that. There are, you know, there are ways of doing this. We just need all of these, these people, government, NHS, organisations to come together and and and and do this, don't we?

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:52:58]:

Absolutely. And I always live in hope that things will get better and things need to get better. Mhmm. I think when you have children, you must always have hope that things are gonna be better for them. But you see, they have never been the issue when it comes to this matter. Bizarrely, young people get it. I think it's older people which is the issue here. So let's continue. I think this is an issue that people were defining yesterday.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:53:31]:

They were talking about British values. What are British values? And people are having difficulty explaining it. And I think caring about other people, that's what, to me, British values are about and looking out for other people. That's what I think anyway. When I'm campaigning, I'm paying for everybody. So, you know, that's why our motto is cleaner for all. We don't exclude anyone. But we do realise that the poorest and those who are marginalised do bear the burden of this issue.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:54:07]:

But everyone, everywhere, is impacted in some form by air pollution.

Liz Allan [00:54:13]:

Yes. And, I mean and to me, for us to do something, it's about like, you've said about having children. You know, I've got one, we've got one boy, and I just want to leave the planet in a better place for the future, you know, and people's health. I want to make sure that people's health their health ongoing. You know, we can't just be selfish and just think, oh, well, after we've gone, they'll sort it out. Yeah. Right. Actually, it's up to us to be adults here, isn't it? You know? Yeah.

Liz Allan [00:54:49]:

I think I have grown up.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah [00:54:51]:

I think people, I think when I'm listening to what's going on, people are already, although the election is years away, I feel like politicians are already sharpening their lives, looking at what, and I think people need to make their feelings known about this. If you don't, it's not something they're going to deal with. I I think we've been very vocal about the migrant issue. I think people now need to be vocal about health.

Liz Allan [00:55:16]:

Yeah. Absolutely. I mean and going back to what you've just said then, it's all about the short term, isn't it? Isn't it? You know? It's really about a marketing campaign for the next four years and I'm sorry. You know? I don't mean it. I don't, I'm not trying to be so awful about the government, but I'm just saying, given the way things go, they go in four-year terms, don't they? So it's about right. What's the marketing campaign happening, you know, looking like for next, you know, for the next slot? So I have my thoughts about who I'd like to stay with and who I'd not like to, but, you know, it is just a bit of short-termism, which we hopefully just need to change a bit. You know? Oh, I've lost you again. Are you there? Where are you? She's probably got a phone call from Tom, sorry.

Liz Allan:

Right. So I've got one final question for you, Rosamund. Go ahead. Hit me. So if you wanted to leave the watchers and the listeners of this podcast with one thing that they want them to do after they finished listening and what or watching listen to or watching this, what would that be?

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah:

The one thing I'd like them to do, as many as possible, is to get in touch with their MP and ask them to support Ella's Law whenever it comes back into parliament. I think that would be the most practical thing to do because I have heard that it reaches me that apparently the government thinks people do not care about air pollution. So you can see why I said that. That's all, and also to say to people not to give up hope. I want people to still have hope, and I want us to be together on this. There are so many issues where I feel people are on different sides. But when it comes to clean air, it's one thing I want us all to be on the same page about because it's about health. And no matter who you are, rich, poor, billionaire, whatever, if your health goes, that's it, really.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah:

And guess what I actually learned that lesson from? I learned that lesson when Linda McCartney got ill. And I thought, oh my god. Paul McCartney must be a billionaire. And yet, he still couldn't save her. So we can be divided over so many other issues. But when it comes to health and the National Health Service, I want us all to be on the same page. So please write to your MP, WhatsApp them, whatever. Speak to people in your local area.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah:

Let them know cleaner matters because it's it is I don't know. It is linked to so many illnesses now, and I firmly believe that if we clean up the air. Okay. Put it this way. I met a doctor at the weekend. I'm not gonna name her because she told me something personal about her, that she's had breast cancer, that she's okay now, and she is a doctor. And she told me so many more people are now getting breast cancer. And she and I both agreed that from our point of view, having clean air, we don't know whether it is contributing to it, but we believe if the air is cleaner, then there'll be fewer cancers basically.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah:

One in two of us apparently will get cancer. And I really believe that if the air is cleaner, then, you know, we will avoid that. So that's all I can say. My hope is we do not allow the politicians to actually divide us on this issue. That's it, Liz. That's all I can ask for. People write to their MP, to speak to their MP about clean air, and we would do our best to get Ellen's Law back into parliament.

Liz Allan:

Yes. And I'm sorry that I thought it was passed earlier. But, yes, that really, really needs to be we we need like you said, we it's it's gotta be a concerted effort for everybody because

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah:

Everybody. Everybody.

Liz Allan:

It affects everyone, doesn't it? You know? No matter what age you are, it affects everybody. And on that note, Rosalind, I'm gonna say this has been such an enlightening conversation

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah:

Thank you.

Liz Allan:

Well, in a really dark time that you've I know that you've been through, I like to say, I said to you before, I can't. I can't imagine how hard that must have been for you. So just to say thank you. Thank you for joining me. It's been such a delight and, you know, just a joy to talk to you. And I hope we get to meet properly face to face because I didn't get to talk to you properly two years ago. One day, we will hug and, you know, and I'll say thank you properly. And

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah:

Can I say thank you to your listeners as well? And if you can, kindly share the podcast to as many people as possible because that's the only way we're gonna get the message about clean air out there. And please remember, it is invisible. Air pollution is invisible, and you can't see it with the naked eye. But if you can taste it or smell it, then that should tell you it is there. Thank you, Liz.

Liz Allan:

Well, listen. To everybody else watching and listening, I'm gonna say, as Rosamund's just said, please share this podcast. Like, subscribe, do all those wonderful things. We need to get these words out. Rosamund's words are so important. Our kids, our families, everybody, it's really important to share this because it matters. It really, really does. So on that note, Rosamund, thank you.

Liz Allan:

I'm gonna say to everybody listening and watching, I'll see you next time. Bye.

Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah:

Take care. Bye.

Liz Allan:

Bye.