Episode 146: Liz Allan and Jolene Cook, OBE - Turning Science into Global Climate Action

Episode 146: Liz Allan and Jolene Cook, OBE - Turning Science into Global Climate Action.

Liz Allan speaks to Jolene Cook, OBE, Head of International Climate Science and UK IPCC Focal Point at the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero.

Jolene shares her journey from musical maths graduate to leading global science-policy negotiations, including the intense behind-the-scenes work that goes into the IPCC reports that inform climate policy worldwide. From 3 am calls and 20-page policy summaries to her toddler’s views on EVs, Jolene brings a rare, human insight into one of the most important jobs in climate change today.

Jolene Cook, OBE Bio:
Jolene Cook is the Head of International Climate Science at the UK’s Department for Energy Security and Net Zero. She serves as the UK’s Focal Point to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) and leads negotiations on science issues within the UN climate framework. With a PhD in atmospheric sciences from the University of Reading, Jolene has built a career translating complex climate science into actionable global policy. She’s passionate about bridging the gap between evidence and action, while also being a mum, musician, and EV advocate.

Quote of the episode:
"Speak out. Don’t be the silent majority. If you care about climate change, make sure your voice is heard, because policymakers and businesses need to know the public supports action." – Jolene Cook, OBE.

Jolene Cook, OBE Links:
Website: https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/department-for-energy-security-and-net-zero
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jolene-cook-b3b39015
Show your stripes: https://showyourstripes.info/c/europe/unitedkingdom/all
Carbon Copy: https://carboncopy.eco/local-climate-action

Transcript

Liz Allan  [00:00:02]:
Right. I wanna say to you today that I have got the most wonderful guest with me, a lovely lady called Jolene Cook. And I'm gonna give you a little bit of background first, before we kind of I before I even let you speak, Jolene, because we've known each other, oh my god. And, well, we haven't spoken to each other for over ten years, have we? But we've known each other for oh god. I can't even remember what year it is now. It's probably about 2000 02/2008?

Jolene Cook [00:00:36]:
Maybe about that. Maybe even just a little bit. Yeah. A little bit before.

Liz Allan  [00:00:39]:
Yeah. I will explain what Jolene does, and then we'll go into a little bit of detail. I think between the two of us, we'll go into a bit of detail about what we did. So Jolene is the head of international climate science and UK IPCC focal point at the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero. Oh my god. What a title. Thank you. Thank you for joining me.

Liz Allan  [00:01:10]:
You are just. I've been so excited knowing that I was gonna be talking to you.

Jolene Cook [00:01:16]:
Oh, that's really nice. Thank you. It's an honour. I mean, look at this. This is amazing. What an important podcast. I'm sure I had to be part of it. Yeah.

Liz Allan  [00:01:24]:
Honestly, I just thought it was mental that I've not had you on before. But right. I'd I'd right. I'm gonna just say a little bit about what you've done, and then and then I'll say how we know each other. So Jolene did a PhD in atmospheric sciences and meteorology at the University of Reading, so she knows my husband, Richard Allen. She started working in London for the Department of Energy and Climate Change in 02/2009. This woman's career has just bloomed, and I just wanna say she's an amazing, gorgeous, wonderful, lovely person. And we sang together in a band on my fortieth birthday, which was a long time ago, and it just made me very sad.

Jolene Cook [00:02:06]:
Years ago, completely years ago.

Liz Allan  [00:02:10]:
So, so she's channelling her inner singer today, aren't you darling?

Jolene Cook [00:02:14]:
I've tried my hardest. Yeah. Yeah. Just, you know, projecting, being confident. Yeah. Being interesting and fun. 

Liz Allan  [00:02:22]:
Yeah. I think that's cool. Oh my god. You are interesting. I mean, good god. Look what you do look what you're doing. Flipping it. She's gone from playing in bands and working at Reading University to being a science adviser in London. I need to find out.

Liz Allan  [00:02:39]:
And we've got to talk about this because it's funny, isn't it? When you're musical because we're both musical, and she plays the keyboard, she's just an amazing keyboard player. I don't know whether you do it much more anymore.

Jolene Cook [00:02:58]:
I do I do I do play piano. Yeah. At least I have one in the house. Yeah. I don't get enough time to play it. But

Liz Allan  [00:03:03]:
yeah. I know. And you've got a three-year-old. I don't know how you do it with
I have a three-year-old as well. My god. But, look, let's go through this. Talk to me, just give me a little bit of background. So you were doing your PhD at Reading University, but what got you interested in meteorology to start off? What was it? Was it maps like my husband's, or was it something else?

Jolene Cook [00:03:28]:
You know what? There was absolutely zero grand plan. I'm very much a kind of, you know, just to put myself through life and see what happens. And actually, my original plan when I left my undergrad was so I mean, even my undergrad was a sign of my indecision. You know, my undergrad was in maths and music because I couldn't choose between the two. Right? And then I left, with temping, travelling after a bit. And then I fell into, actually, fund management. I ended up working for a fund management company. And I started doing an exam for fund management.

Jolene Cook [00:03:59]:
But while I was doing that, I saw an advert come up for BBC weather presenters. Right? Yeah. And so, when I went, I applied for the job. And I think they, the one I applied for, there were 500 applicants. And I managed to get down to the last 11, but you have to go through a screen test and everything. And at that point, they said to me, Oh, you know, you weren't successful because you don't have any meteorology experience. Like, oh, okay. Right.

Jolene Cook [00:04:26]:
So while working in fund management, I decided to leave fund management to go and do a master's up in Edinburgh to get a bit more of the modelling side of it. And then after that, I got a job at Reading University, yeah. Sort of, just a postgraduate role and thought, oh, this climate change thing is quite interesting, isn't it? And then did a PhD, and then carried on doing a postdoc, and then just got really into it. Yeah, I was quite interested in the environment and worried. But, yeah, going into climate change wasn't a plan. It's just something you realise, actually, this is really important. Did my postdocs at Redding, obviously working with Rich, and that's when I had all my band, and we were singing quite a lot. But it got to the point where I thought, okay, I've got to make a choice.

Jolene Cook [00:05:19]:
Do I stay in academia? And I follow the routes that Rich has done and so many others, you know, people from Reading who are so passionate about what they do. Or, do I do something different? And I chose to do something different because I wanted to be a bit closer to where you can have an impact on the actual action around climate change.

Liz Allan  [00:05:40]:
Yeah.

Jolene Cook [00:05:43]:
Rather than just researching it. I wanted it, I wanted that science to make a difference. And I saw this job come up in what at the time was a department for energy and climate change, for a science adviser. And that was in 02/2009. That was a long time ago. And, it was successful and started working in that. And what an amazing job. You know, I I started at the, you know, junior levels. Still, it was all about keeping abreast of what the science was saying, making sure you were, sort of understanding what the science is saying, what the implications of that science were and passing it on to, you know, policymakers in the department and to ministers and really advising them that this is what the science is saying is happening around climate change.

Jolene Cook [00:06:30]:
This is what the science is saying needs to happen if you want to tackle it. And I was also at the same time managing, you know, research programs and things. Anyway, so I did that, but one part of my role at that time was starting to get more into the international climate action scene. Yeah. And really understanding what's, where you mentioned the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the IPCC, understanding what that was, which was a real eye opener. When you work in climate science, as Rich knows, and as a postdoc or a junior researcher, you know of the IPCC. And it's almost like a kind of bible if you like. If you want to know about a new topic, you go straight to an IPCC report, and it will give you this amazing summary of the latest information on a particular topic.

Jolene Cook [00:07:20]:
But at that point, I think very few people know actually what goes into producing those reports and that you're actually involved as an author like Rich. Yeah. And you don't understand that the power of those reports. It's that it's an intergovernmental process. It's not just a pure science thing. It's about all these countries coming together and helping develop these reports. And that's hugely, hugely important. So I got into it like that.

Jolene Cook [00:07:46]:
Did a few more years, went to actually take a couple of years out to go to the European Commission, where I did more on the IPCC, but also then got more involved in the political side. So the international climate negotiations as well. So that's the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change. And so my role was about, you know, making sure the science is feeding into that, making sure that IPCC's work is feeding into that. And then I came back to the department, and it went through various changes. You know, first, they became the, you know, department for business. Was it energy and industrial strategy? And now recently, it's become, you know, energy security and net zero. And then I got this my current role, which is, as you say, head of international climate science.

Jolene Cook [00:08:29]:
I've been doing this for about seven, eight years now, where I am, as you say, the Focal Point, so the UK's Representative in the IPCC. Wow. And also, I'm the lead negotiator in the UK team for science issues within the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change as well. But essentially, all of it is about making sure the, you know, the huge body of science on climate change is feeding into these processes that policymakers, both international and national, have the evidence they need to make decisions. So hugely, hugely interesting. And, yeah, for me, it feels really worthwhile and impactful. And you can see the, you know, the impact of IPCC reports, etc., on the international process and our national process. I'm, you know, happy to talk about a little bit more about that.

Jolene Cook [00:09:23]:
And no matter what what focal point actually does. So Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Liz Allan  [00:09:27]:
I'd love to know I'd love to know. Actually, do you know what I think? So you've given a little bit of information about the IPCC, but the process takes quite a long time, doesn't it? And, like, there's the section that Rich was working on, which was a new one on the section he was on. How, because we're talking about hundreds of scientists, aren't we, coming together from all over the world to actually work on this for a period of time? Is it three years that they all work together?

Jolene Cook [00:10:00]:
It can be. Yeah. It can be, yeah, up to three years together depending on depending on the report. But, yeah, a huge, huge endeavour, huge global effort, and massively influential, worldwide. Maybe I just say yeah. Maybe you should say what the IPCC is specifically. So as I said, it's an intergovernmental panel. So the IPCC itself comprises 95 governments, 95 countries around the world.

Jolene Cook [00:10:29]:
And the panel itself is actually, you know, focal points, representatives, countries, in the in these meetings. So it's a UN body. It's a United Nations body. Its role is essentially to assess the body of literature on the science and technical information on climate change and climate change solutions, and to produce these reports, which are then used to inform policymakers. Okay. So, yeah, the process is huge. It is the authoritative body on climate science. So, so what you see in those reports represents the scientific consensus.

Jolene Cook [00:11:09]:
And the process to develop its reports really ensures that those reports are robust, accurate, give you a good indication of the level of confidence in those reports, and where there might still be some scientific uncertainties, for example. So what what what happens? So if you know, the IPCC goes through cycles of assessments. Each cycle is roughly, I don't know six to, six to seven years long. And during each cycle, at the very beginning, a couple of things will happen. One is that the IPCC, so the governments will elect a chair of the IPCC, and it's great that this time around, the UK has the chair. We've got a hugely respected, expert professor, Sir Jimski. And then it also elects a body, a small body of experts, a bureau of experts, who are from different regions around the world, who are there to help guide and advise the panel itself, to guide the country representatives, the countries. So that's the first thing that happens.

Jolene Cook [00:12:20]:
And the second thing that happens is that at the beginning, we decide which reports we're going to prepare during that assessment cycle. So it's just started its seventh assessment cycle. It started in 2023 and 2024. And we decided this cycle that we're going to produce its flagship seventh assessment report. The IPCC is going to produce a special report on cities and climate change, which is hugely relevant to this podcast, as it will talk about transport and how that fits in within cities. Yeah. And then it's going to produce a couple of other reports about, to help countries report their emissions, on green greenhouse gas emissions. So a lot of few different reports.

Liz Allan [00:12:57]:
So, what does a process look like for putting these reports together? 

Jolene Cook [00:13:07]:
Well, the first thing is that the two countries have to decide what will go into those reports, what the scope of those reports will be. So, to do that, a number of experts are nominated and selected to put together a draft outline. You know, so they all come together with their expertise and say, actually, if you're gonna talk about this topic, you need to be thinking about this and this and this and this. Then, that draft outline goes to the IPCC and the panel, and governments agree on that outline. There are discussions, you know, because the point is that these reports should be policy-relevant. Every country will have a different view on what's considered to be policy relevant, which you might imagine. Once that outline is agreed upon, the authors of that report are selected. So, countries and observers nominate experts from around the world and then the bureau, this group of elected people, they are responsible for choosing those experts, making sure they've got the right people, the top expertise from around the world. Also, they have to ensure there's also regional balance and geographical balance among the authorship.

Jolene Cook [00:14:13]:
Because if you want to produce a report that's reflective of the situation, it needs to be diverse. It needs to include diverse viewpoints. You need to capture different circumstances and things. And you only get that by having a diverse author rank author group. And also make sure that there's a good gender balance as well, because obviously, gender is a really important part of ensuring we have a complete picture of what's happening. And then those authors get on, do the work, and start writing the reports. They'll produce several drafts, which will go out for review. They'll go out for review by experts around the world.

Jolene Cook [00:14:48]:
But they also come to the governments to review as well, and we send in our comments. And then the authors have to, you know, listen, look at the comments that they get from governments, decide whether they've got valid points or not, and respond to those and then update the drafts. And then finally, at the end of the process, which is, you know, which has got to you know, we have the IPCC meets for about a week, so all the panel members come together. And, what we do is we have had time to review the final report, but on top of the final report is a very short summary for policymakers. And that summary for policy makers, maybe, like, I don't know, 15. I mean, the intention's always to have it 10 pages long. It always ends up, like, fifteen, twenty pages long. And the panel, together with some of the lead authors, then have to go through that summary for policymakers sentence by sentence and approve it.

Liz Allan  [00:15:47]:
That just totally blew my mind when Rich was involved in that because, you know, it was it was it was during COVID, wasn't it, during lockdown. So everything was online. And literally, you know, I know that he was so stressed. I'm so stressed at certain places because of, you know, kind of going through and gaveling at, yes, we agree that. And I I was like, good grief. This is an amazing experience, but quite stressful as well. You know, you said it was 150 countries?

Jolene Cook [00:16:19]:
No. 195 in the North. Hundred And 90 5. And then you get yeah. Yeah.

Liz Allan  [00:16:23]:
It's getting all of those to make a decision on that line over fifteen to twenty pages. Oh my god. Weren't you going, or are you doing some all-nighters and stuff by just going through it? I bet you were knackered.

Jolene Cook [00:16:36]:
Yeah. I mean, towards towards the end of the week, you know, you realize, you know, there there was always some, you know, some parts of the reports that are harder to to to, you know, agree on, if you like, to to how best to communicate the information. And the, you know, there's always a bit of a, say, rush at the end as we're trying to resolve a few issues. So yeah. But they, I mean, for the last assessment cycle that Rich was involved in, it was a bit particular because we were doing these approval sessions online, which are really hard. Yeah. Really difficult. Working at all hours of the day because you have to account for every time zone.

Liz Allan  [00:17:12]:
Yeah.

Jolene Cook [00:17:13]:
And, yeah, there were all-nighters towards the end because, you know, that's how you have to operate, I think, to get it

Liz Allan  [00:17:19]:
Please tell me you celebrated at the end.

Jolene Cook [00:17:22]:
Oh, yeah. I think I probably slept at the

Liz Allan  [00:17:23]:
end. Is that? Yeah. Oh my god.

Jolene Cook [00:17:29]:
But, yeah, it's it's just intense, but hugely worth it because these these some of your policy makers, they're the ones you know, the what's in those are accepted by these 95 governments, and you can use them anywhere then. Right? So if you go into the political negotiations and say, well, you've just agreed to this summary of policymakers. Your government agrees with this finding. Therefore, you know, we're gonna use this to inform what decisions need to be taken on climate action at the international level. So hugely important. And, you know, thinking about the reports, what impact they've had, the last cycle, it was really essential for, I don't know. If you follow the international negotiations, we had the Paris agreement, a huge moment in international climate action. So that was in 2015.

Jolene Cook [00:18:20]:
The IPCC reports informed the setting of a temperature target. So, the idea is that we, the world, should act to keep the temperature well below two degrees Celsius and pursue efforts to keep it to 1.5.

Liz Allan  [00:18:32]:
Point five. Yeah.

Jolene Cook [00:18:33]:
Yeah. Hugely important. So that was that was the IPCC finding. And then a couple of years later, IPCC did a special report on 1.5 degrees to understand it better. What does it mean? What do we have to do? And from that report, that led to the idea of basically commitments around net zero, emissions, including the UK's own net zero target. And all of a sudden, you see countries and industry and businesses setting net zero targets because IPCC has assessed literature and found there's this really important connection between the amount of emissions put out there, especially with CO2, and temperature and the link between temperature. So huge. And it continues and continues on, and I can give you so many examples of how the IPCC has had a huge impact on action around the world.

Liz Allan  [00:19:25]:
Do you think this is just a little question, but probably not really? Do you think that the public, the general public, say, if we just talk about the UK specifically, do they understand what net zero is? Do you think they understand what net zero is?

Jolene Cook [00:19:45]:
I would say those who have a specific interest in climate and are quite passionate probably have a rough idea or a reasonable idea of what net zero is. I would say the majority of the public probably wouldn't. They know this is this will be my guess. They probably don't understand in-depth what it means and what the implications are. And certainly, you know, one of the, you know, the last government set up our you know, renamed the department to energy security and net zero. Yes. It was a huge indication of it, it's definitely growing in awareness, and it was a real priority for them. And it's, you know, very much interlinked with this energy security part. And the current government decided to also keep their name because they know it's important.

Jolene Cook [00:20:33]:
But I I suspect understanding exactly what net zero is would be my guess is that people would probably struggle to explain what it is, but, you know, you you might you might also have thoughts on on that yourself. And I've Yeah.

Liz Allan  [00:20:45]:
I mean, I think because there's kind of lots there are still people, including people I know, that and I said this before we start recording, that still I don't think they understand, and they don't, they don't understand the impact of their own actions. You know? And I know that, obviously, the IPCC report kind of is there, you know, and the summary is there to kind of help governments decide on what their own governmental actions and the actions in the country are. I just think the phrase net zero I understand it because of my husband, but if I weren't married to who I'm married to, I probably wouldn't get it. Because what is net zero? We know that it's about carbon and emissions and things like that. But if you go to the nitty gritty of what it actually is and sort of, you know, if you even if you kind of look at, because I was gonna ask you about the, you know, kind of the carbon budget documentation that I know it's not IPCC, but, you know, it's it's kind of what my thinking is, we need to do something to make this more accessible for so that everybody understands it and they understand what their what their impact is. Or, or should I say, their lack of doing anything impacts, you know, because people don't they they if we talk, even if we just look at transport, people are driving around in vehicles that are emitting emissions, but they don't necessarily know what that's doing. You know, there are two things on my mind. There's the pollution in the cities and, like, you were kind of saying about, kind of, the flagship that you're gonna be doing with regards to cities.

Liz Allan  [00:22:37]:
I know it's different, but so you've got pollution side and then you've got carbon, you know. And and and lots lots of people hear lots of things, and it's it's just trying to get to the crux of what that is so people just understand it, I suppose, Jolene, really.

Jolene Cook [00:22:53]:
No. No. Absolutely. Yeah. And I agree with that. I mean, we're talking about, you know, before this, we're about ways of making climate science more accessible. And anyway, the public doesn't need to understand all the details of the science. Right? They just need to understand what matters to them and what the impact is.

Jolene Cook [00:23:13]:
Right? And so one of the things is about putting it all in the context of people's daily lives. I think particularly at the moment, you know, we talk a lot about, you know, the cost of living crisis and and and how to manage this transition to net zero while ensuring that we're we're looking after the public. And I think there's, you know, what what we've been seeing over the past few months is I would say a very small, but very vocal minority trying to pitch the two against each other, and that's not and that that's really important because there there are obviously benefits to to net zero and that transition, for the general public. Obviously, there are yeah. There will be initial costs and things. No, absolutely. And those definitely need to be addressed. And it is really tough.

Jolene Cook [00:24:01]:
But there are definitely some things that can be done at not necessarily an individual level, but, you know, sort of, you know, national, industry or business level to help those transitions. So, yeah. I mean, so net net zero, I mean, how do we talk about it? First of all, as I as I mentioned, though, if we want to describe it, there is a finite amount of long lived greenhouse gases you can put, it's like c o two, put in the atmosphere, before you hit a particular temperature. So one temperature rise, global temperature rise, it relates to a certain amount of emissions. And the more you put in, the less you've got, essentially, to emit before you've had it out. And if you emit too much, the temperature rise is gonna be much higher. That's essentially it. The net bit is that, you know, it's not just about what you put in, it's what you take out as well.

Jolene Cook [00:24:55]:
And I guess there's a wider conversation around feasibility and how much we can do that. How much you can actually, like, for example, take carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere or how much you can remove it from industrial processes. And that would be difficult, but I won't go into too much. So how do you get people to understand that other than, you know, everything they do, every car they drive, rather than, you know, an internal combustion engine car they drive, is putting emissions into the atmosphere. Really, really tough. But I think there's a lot about helping people understand that the transition to net zero brings huge benefits, not just for the environment, but for your everyday life. You know, better planning around cities means you get a much more pleasant city to be working and living in. You know, better infrastructure, greener spaces, cleaner air, for example.

Jolene Cook [00:25:51]:
There's obviously huge benefits for nature as well. And people, you know, there's a huge number of people that are really protective of our natural environment, and the natural environment is suffering now as a result of the climate change that's already happened. It's only going to get worse. But there's definitely something about helping people understand it, make it more tangible for them, rather than talking about this abstract thing, net zero. Thinking about my, my little one. So we have an EV, now, after many years of not having a car and she, she now says, oh, when a petrol car says, oh, that petrol car is so smelly and dirty, our car doesn't smell. But it's always like just talking about the power of EVs from that perspective. Right? That it's not just the one thing.

Jolene Cook [00:26:34]:
It's like, I don't actually want to walk down the street smelling exhaust fumes. It's terrible. You know, I don't want a car going with all these particles going into the air and all the, you know, the backfireings. It's horrible, and they're really noisy. So, yeah,

Liz Allan  [00:26:48]:
things like that. Especially when you've got a three year old or, you know, when kids start going to school and, actually, the episode that comes out just before yours is, Rosamund Adukisi Deborah whose daughter died and her she was the first person Ella had was the first person to actually have air pollution on her death certificate. You know, and and you and I both live in Reading, and we know so we've got we've we've got for you that don't know Reading at all, we've got a thing called it's like a dual carriageway that goes round sort of at Reading called the IDR. It's the Inner Distribution Road. It's a really naff name, isn't it? It's called the IDR. And, actually, it gets so chalked up. It really, really does. And my son was collecting data, like, for his A levels, last year.

Liz Allan  [00:27:32]:
He was doing a geography A-level, it was all about collecting data on different vehicles. So he was trying to identify the number of vehicles because he was looking at the levels of air pollution in Reading. And I was just like, oh my god. You stood where? For how long? You know, just thinking of my son, and he's five feet ten. But little people, like like your daughter and the kids that you know, small kids who are breathing in all this crap and they're at exhaust level, aren't they? They

Jolene Cook [00:28:05]:
You know?

Liz Allan  [00:28:05]:
And people need to think about that side of things. And, yeah, I'm glad your daughter's saying this because if little kids are actually challenging or, you know, that that car's really smelly, then that's something, isn't it?

Jolene Cook [00:28:17]:
Yeah. Absolutely. It's just those things, I think, are easier for people to relate to than this more abstract thing of, yeah, greenhouse gas emissions. Because, yeah, super, super interesting. You know, I, for the last IPCC meeting, I was in, sorry. Think about EVs. It was in China back in February. And one of the things that really struck me when we were in Hangzhou was the number of EVs on the road and how quiet they were.

Jolene Cook [00:28:45]:
We were in, like, middle of this really big city. It was just quiet and lovely. It was it was, you know, really, really nice. Anyway, I looked it up just before this thing. Apparently, in China, nearly half of car sales in last year were electric. And it shows Yeah. Amazing.

Liz Allan  [00:29:01]:
I mean, on the other side, they've still got coal-fired power stations, haven't they? So, so it's kinda yin and yang. It's like one against the others. But, yeah, for the eve on the EV side, they're pushing it massively. I just wish they'd reduced the coal-fired power stations.

Jolene Cook [00:29:17]:
I think I've I think I've started. I need to look at what they've, I think there are some things coming out at the moment. They've started investing a lot more in renewable energy, which is obviously the thing you have to do. Right? If you're gonna invest a lot in EVs, you have to make sure that the power supply is also decarbonised, which is the. You're right. So I think they are starting to do a lot more. But, yes, hopefully, yeah.

Jolene Cook [00:29:41]:
One day soon. Phrase out fossil fuels would be great.

Liz Allan  [00:29:44]:
That's what I know. We do need to do this. I've got to ask you. So, because this is a question from Rich, I told you I would ask this. And I know you mentioned it very, very briefly, didn't you, about the new government kind of keeping the name of the department. What was it, how was it when you kind of moved from one government to another? Was it kind of seamless, or I know you can't kinda go into policy stuff or anything like that, but was there a noticeable or did you feel a noticeable difference in kind of the, you know, the ministers in charge and things like that?

Jolene Cook [00:30:20]:
Yeah. I mean, not every government will come in with their different priorities. But one thing I would say is that in the UK, we've been hugely lucky with or hugely fortunate over the past, I don't know, ten, fifteen years, is that accepting things we've heard in recent months, climate change has really been a cross-party issue. I've had cross-party support, which has been great, recognising that it is a genuine challenge, that it's above, you know, the divide between, you know, the left and the right. So, I think when I first started, actually, we had the same secretary of state that we have now, which is interesting. And, if you know, he, he, you know, once that government changed, but that was back in 02/2009. He actually went away, learned a lot about climate change, and now comes back and is very passionate about it. You'll see him everywhere.

Jolene Cook [00:31:21]:
The difference I think I think the last government also did a lot on net zero. They put in place a lot of policies to support it. I would say every government can do more. Probably not supposed to say that, but, you know, that's what we know the science is saying, and we have to. So I yeah. I mean, obviously, it's always gonna be a slightly different environment as you move from from different government government. But at least the general support for tackling climate change while making sure we've got a secure future with respect to energy, especially in the current geopolitical situation that the world is facing, is hugely important. Mhmm.

Jolene Cook [00:31:59]:
So, yeah, that's it's Cool. Not a huge change here and there.

Liz Allan  [00:32:05]:
And I know I know we've not got a lot of time left, so I'm gonna squeeze a few more in now. See, I'll I'll see how many I can squeeze in before you have to go. We talked very briefly about gender earlier. How does it, you know, make it more difficult being a woman in this role that you're in? Because I can you know, you aren't naturally, you know, kind of a loud, outspoken person, are you? You know, you're singing voice is amazing, but you're very kind of, you know, you're quite a quiet person, weren't you?

Jolene Cook [00:32:44]:
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And I know we talked about it. So this is almost a funny role for me because, you know, as a focal point, yeah. I should say I do have a team. It's not me just going on doing this by myself. So, I manage my team and coordinate across the government for positions.

Jolene Cook [00:33:00]:
But, yeah. So what's it look like? You know, I'm going into these big UN meetings a bit like, you know, you see in the movies. Sometimes we're all sitting behind our flags, you know, the names of our countries, and now I have to, you know, put up my flag and make an intervention in front of all these countries. It's it seems very strange. If you had asked me this, like, twenty years ago, would I be doing this? I was like, no. No. Absolutely not. No.

Jolene Cook [00:33:20]:
I'm just gonna hide behind a book or something. Okay. So, so what did I learn? It's definitely getting better. So I remain, I would say I'm in the minority of women focal points in the IPCC. I would probably I would also say that we're probably one of about, I don't know, three or four of the countries with more than one person in the delegation. But sometimes I go to these meetings with an all-female delegation, which is also quite rare. So, the UK, I would say, is very much, you know, leading the way in terms of ensuring gender balance within the IPCC and ensuring, you know, different perspectives and different approaches to discussions and things. And it's really important.

Jolene Cook [00:34:12]:
When I first arrived, so my not my immediate predecessor, who was in there for a year or two, but my immediate predecessor before that, who's kind of like one of my mentors, he had been in the IPC since it was started. Hugely respected, very well known, worldwide, you know. And I, you know, but certainly when I arrived, it's like, oh, you've got big boots to fill. It's like, I know. I'm very aware of that. Thanks. Okay. Compete with this, like, this six-foot-tall guy who is just, like, you know, well respected.

Jolene Cook [00:34:50]:
And, there were there were a number of focal points in that that were like that who had been in that all, yeah, very, you know, very well informed and experienced, opinions about the IPCC. So I I have to admit, when I when I first started, it did take something for me to, you know, bring myself into that environment, establish myself as a as a credible voice, and, you know, make myself make my way into these little groups, you know, over the discussions. But I got it. And, the IPCC, as I said, over the last few years, has placed a lot of emphasis on the raw gender in its assessments and in the way it works. Really important to have those voices. And there's a there's a for example, there's a, a task group that looks at gender specifically within IPCC and how to make sure that the women are supported in the process. We have discussions, for example, about childcare. You know, how can we do that? And COVID was a really difficult time for all carers at the moment, but, you know, it disproportionately affected women in the process.

Jolene Cook [00:36:09]:
So it was, yeah. It was really important. When I first came back from maternity leave, I actually took my daughter to some of these meetings with me when she was, yeah. She was very little. And I was lucky that I was able to do that, but not everyone is able to do that. So it's hugely challenging, especially with, you know, the hours and being away for, you know, a week or so at a time. It's it's difficult.

Liz Allan  [00:36:30]:
I can imagine. I can imagine. But it sounds like you've kind of settled yourself into this really well now. So, so I'm gonna I'm gonna actually I'm gonna ask like I say, I'm aware of the time that you've you know, you need to you need to dash in a minute. So if if I can leave you with it or ask you a final question. If everyone listening and watching this could do one thing to support the climate agenda, what would you ask of them?

Jolene Cook [00:37:02]:
One thing. Oh, there was, yeah. There are quite a few. Obviously, taking all the yeah. There are lots of intervention actions we can do. You know? Like, if you've got a petrol car, you've got an EV, for example. But, one thing I hear over and over again, especially in the current void at the moment, is that there are questions raised about how big the support is for tackling climate change. And I was listening to a talk the other day.

Jolene Cook [00:37:34]:
I think, I don't remember who it was, but they were looking at some survey results and some studies that actually said support for net zero, the support for tackling climate change is huge. And then you see this result around the world in every country. Right? We're talking, you know, 80% more, and then a group of people who are not quite sure. And then a very, very small minority who are really anti-climate action for their own reasons. Not because it matches what the evidence is saying. Right? Yeah. But you wouldn't know this because there's a huge silent majority. So what I think I would say, and I have said this in the past.

Jolene Cook [00:38:22]:
If there's I mean, there are lots of individual actions that you can do. One of the things I would say is to speak out. Lobby your local MP. Make sure businesses and industries know that you want to see better from them. Make sure that you know, as a voting public, you're getting a cost review, and that you want that. So many people are happy to not say anything and let it go on, but then are disappointed when things don't happen. It's because if they don't know about it, they won't say anything. And I understand that, you know, for climate change, you know, it has to fit in with your day-to-day life as well.

Jolene Cook [00:39:02]:
You know, if you're trying to feed your kids and you have to make choices between something that's very, you know, low carbon, environmentally friendly, etc., but there's something that's more at risk and cheaper, it's a difficult challenge. So but that that responsibility shouldn't be yours. It should be you know, you should be offered choices that match these things, and that is the responsibility of industry, business, governments, and things to provide that choice. But they don't know unless you're saying you support it. So speak out. That's what my thing. Don't be the silent majority.

Liz Allan  [00:39:33]:
I love that. That is a really, really good place to actually end. I was gonna just point out to everybody, and I will try and share this in the links, and I'll share kind of, you know, anything that you want me to do in the show notes. I was gonna mention about so Ed Hawkins has got a so the guy who invented the climate, climate stripes, there's a website where you can actually look at the climate stripes for each town and city, and it says exactly what that town and city is doing towards climate change, isn't it? So, you can actually you can have a look at that. You can access it. Just do a climate change, climate stripes website, search, or else I'll share the links. But one final question. Final final final final.

Liz Allan  [00:40:22]:
When are we gonna sing again together?

Jolene Cook [00:40:25]:
Oh, Liz, we need to find a time.

Liz Allan  [00:40:28]:
I know. I know. We do if we all live in the same town, for goodness' sake.

Jolene Cook [00:40:33]:
I know. I know. We got a great recording. I saw one of the recording studios, which now has a cafe in it. Right? So, I mean, I wanna wanna run some cemetery junction. So, yeah, let's do that.

Liz Allan  [00:40:47]:
We will. Absolutely. We will have this, and we will follow up with another conversation on music. Voila. So on that note, I'm just gonna say, Jolene, it's been absolutely amazing to catch up and talk about all the wonderful things you've been doing. I will keep following you on LinkedIn, and everybody, please follow Jolene on LinkedIn. The stuff that these guys are doing is just making a difference, a massive difference. And it takes ages to, I mean, herd all these herd all these scientists together to get all this information so they can't not they can't be doing it for nothing, you know.

Liz Allan  [00:41:24]:
Thank you so much, Jolene. It's been wonderful. To everybody else watching and listening, please do what I always ask you: please like, subscribe, share, and follow us on LinkedIn. We've got our own podcast page for Electric Evolution. On that note, Jolene, thank you. Thank you to everybody watching and listening, and I'll see you later.

Liz Allan  [00:41:45]:
Bye.